Latest / Therapy and Theology / Bonus: When Healing Feels Slow, Relationships Are Strained, and God Seems Silent | Q&A with Lysa, Jim, and Dr. Joel

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Bonus: When Healing Feels Slow, Relationships Are Strained, and God Seems Silent | Q&A with Lysa, Jim, and Dr. Joel · Therapy and Theology

• SHAE HILL: Welcome back to the Therapy and Theology Podcast, where we help you work through what you walk through. I'm your host, Shae Hill, and I'm so excited to be delivering another summer bonus episode to you today. Guys, this episode is so special You see, Therapy and Theology truly would not exist without the donors who give to Proverbs 31 Ministries Because of their generosity, these conversations can remain completely free and accessible to our listeners all over the world. SHAE: So to thank these donors for their faithful partnership, we decided to invite this group to ask Lysa TerKeurst, Dr. Joel Muddamalle, and counselor Jim Cress any question they wanted to, and that's the episode you're going to hear today, friends. We recorded it all just for you. And if you'd like to join this group of faithful givers, you can go to proverbs31.org/give to give a financial gift so that even more Therapy and Theology conversations can help people work through what they're walking through. Again, that's proverbs31.org/give, and we'll also link to that website for you in the show notes SHAE: As you reset your rhythms and settle into these warmer months, I wanna tell you about a special offer from our friends at the American Association of Christian Counselors that might be just the right thing you're looking for this summer. Our friends at AACC and Light University created a trauma-informed coaching certification, which is a biblically grounded training that teaches you how to recognize trauma, respond with care, and walk someone toward healing. This program will help you become a trusted person for someone else who needs help working through what they're walking through. And right now they're offering limited scholarships to you, our Therapy and Theology listeners, for just $99 when this program normally costs $1,600, so it's the perfect time to get started. You can find the link in our show notes to apply today. SHAE: And after listening to today's episode, it would mean the most to us if you would share how this conversation helped you specifically. Leave us a review on Apple Podcast or a comment on Spotify or YouTube and tell us all about it. Now let's hear from Lysa, Jim, and Dr. Joel. SHAE: Lysa, Jim, and Joel, I'm so glad that y'all are with me today. I'm normally behind the scenes taking notes during y'all's recordings, but today, I am joining you so that we can go through some questions. We have, uh, seven questions here from some amazing P31 donors who got the opportunity to submit specific questions to you guys. SHAE: And so, um, we're gonna cover a lot of different topics here. We've got some mental health questions, relationship questions, boundaries questions, a little bit of marriage, um, and then also just some general questions about our relationship with God. So thank you all for being here today. Um, are you- LYSA: Thank you, Shae. JIM: Yeah. SHAE: Thanks guys. LYSA: It's so nice to have you on set. JIM: Glad to have you here with us. SHAE: Yes I’m excited to be here. Um, so without further ado, let's jump into the first question. Okay, they say, "For years I have believed I could overcome my anxiety and depression just by loving God more, but now I find myself anxious when there is no reason. It's just there. I've done so much healing and therapy, but now I'm wondering if this is a physical struggle. Can true mental illness just be cured by applying God's word? What does the Bible or Jesus himself have to say about mental illness?" A lot in here. LYSA TERKEURST: Yes, such a good question. Um, you know, my good friend Rebecca Maxwell, who is sometimes on Therapy and Theology. I would highly recommend her book, um, Jesus and Your Mental Health, because she'll do a deep dive in that message, and we've had her on the podcast before too. So I just thought I would weave in that really specific resource for a question like this. I also wanna start out, I know that you'll have a much more therapeutic, technical answer Jim, so that's my cue to tell you to get ready. JIM: I'm ready. SHAE: Soft nudge. LYSA: And then Joel, of course, will have a, some good theology to throw in here. But I just wanna speak to your heart if you're dealing with anxiety. Um, first of all, I wanna say that I am, I am sorry. I know this is a really hard struggle, and it breaks my heart whenever I hear someone wrestling on the deep level that they're quickly going from their anxiety to mental health, you know? So that lets me know that the, the struggle is more severe than just your garden variety, like, feelings of nerves that come and go. Um, and so I just wanna speak with great compassion and just say I'm so sorry you're struggling with this. LYSA: I, too, um, after my divorce, um, started struggling with anxiety, and it is something that I have to work on every single day.And a couple of things that help me, um, and then we'll get to the deeper answer of connecting this with the Lord. But a couple of things that help me is to take a step back and ask myself some identifying questions. LYSA: What is stirring this anxiety right now in this moment? Like, is there something, is there a fear Is there an event that's happening that I feel like I can't control and I wanna control it? Is there a worst-case scenario that I'm entertaining in my mind? So I do kind of a quick assessment, and there's some other questions that you can weave in there based on your specific conditions. LYSA: But I think sometimes we feel this general feeling, and it's hard to identify what the source is, and sometimes there is no source. Sometimes it really is just this physical reaction- JIM: Mm-hmm LYSA: that's very hard to identify. But sometimes there is a source that we can identify that we need to kind of unpack what's happening there and see there may be some things we cannot do about this feeling of anxiety, but then there may be some things we can do. LYSA: So some practical things that I can do is once I identify something, I can write it down on paper. For example, if it's a worst-case scenario, write down exactly what it is that I'm fearing and then break it down. Okay, so if this happens, uh, then what? And then if that happens, then what? And chase it all the way down. LYSA: And, you know, I think that's a good place once you start listing out exactly what's stirring this to get into God's word and to match specific Bible verses with the then what answers. And sometimes that really does help me. Of course, there's a practical answer, too. Drink at least four ounces of water. Um, that's scientifically proven to reduce your anxiety. Go outside, take your shoes off. Stand in the grass. You know, remind yourself the sky is not falling. Even if the sky in your world is falling, the sky is not falling. And then give yourself 20 minutes before you try to have any hard conversations, um, before you make any decisions, and if possible, before you even get in a car to drive. LYSA: So just give yourself 20 minutes. And I know, Jim, you're the one that taught me these techniques because you were helping me deal with my anxiety. But those things really do help me. SHAE: That's great. JIM: Yeah. Uh, hard to improve on that. Let me tell you, that's brilliant what you've just stated. Uh, I look at anxiety, and I too, like Lysa, have had my own struggles with anxiety. Um, and I look at it as a multifaceted problem, often, that needs to be looked at, we shall say treated, in a multifaceted way. Um, I would accept, as we've talked about many times, that mental health is a commitment to reality at all costs. What I've done in my own life, quite frankly, is I accept that anxiety may be there, and it ma- and I'm not gonna try to get rid of it. JIM: I do a thing what I call interview your anxiety. So when that happens for me, I will ask myself the question, literally, and y'all can do this, it's not that hard, is there anywhere, any place, where I'm out of alignment spiritually, relationally, sleep deprived? Being very honest, uh, I found out I cannot go to the airport to fly 'cause I fly a lot and carbo load. JIM: If I eat, you know, a bunch of sugar or whatever else and/or too much coffee, cortisol levels. So to not be surprised when the anxiety comes, what I mean by interviewing it is to say, "Okay, anxiety, is there..." This was my journey. "Is there anything you're trying to teach me, anxiety?" See it almost as a person. JIM: "Are you trying to teach me something?" My big one's always gonna be, is there anything out of alignment in my life with my values, et cetera? And then to look at, uh, we have, we have a whole Bible, right? A whole Bible of verses. So I've seen people, and, and we've all seen this. They'll go to Philippians 4, "Hey, you fool, stop being anxious." JIM: And which is not at all the spirit of that. It's, hey, when you are anxious You have a place to bring your petitions, your requests, all that to God. And isn't this beautiful, that the God of all peace will give you the very peace of Christ, taking every thought captive, making it obedient to Christ, 2 Corinthians 10, 10:5. JIM: I, uh, in concluding point, I don't worry about when anxiety comes. As Martin Luther said, "I cannot keep the thought birds from flying over my head, but I can keep them from making a nest in my hair.” I say, "There you are. You're trying to tell me something," and I have resources, which we know as resiliency, to be able to address the anxiety. In the end, for me, anxiety, I don't see anymore as my enemy. It's my friend. It's an avenue for me to go vertical to Jesus. SHAE: That's good. LYSA: Joel, I definitely wanna hear your thoughts as well. Thank you, Jim. That was so well-stated. Um, and you both can correct me if I'm wrong here. So permission, even Shae. JIM: You know we're not gonna do that. I'm not gonna do that. LYSA: You've done it before. JIM: Oh, okay. Well. LYSA: Okay. So, um, but total permission to correct me. For me, sometimes when I have anxiety, I think what it feels like to me is I get triggered, startled. I become aware of something, and there's usually a catalyst that kicks it in if it's the kind of anxiety where there is a source. Remember we talked about there's some- JIM: Right LYSA: that you can't figure out the source. But if there is a source, it almost feels like to me that I get kicked into fight, flight, freeze scenario. And I want to, I wanna do something. And so those three things, it's like, you know, if you fight, that's getting that nervous energy out. If you, um, flee, that's getting that nervous energy out. If you freeze, even that internally is you doing something, stonewalling, you know, putting a wall up. JIM: And freeze, may I just say, in all the trauma research, is the one we never wanna go to because you- it's just drilling in and deepening that anxiety or panic or fear or depression. So movement is important. When you talked about ice in your hands, I've told clients to do, get out on bare feet on grass, drink water. Notice that's not really a flight. It might seem like it, but there's movement. The last thing you wanna do is just sit still neurochemically, neurobiologically in your body. LYSA: So sometimes anxiety for me feels like energy with no place to go. JIM: That's a good way to put it. LYSA: And also, what happens in my brain is- Where I want to go is I wanna solve it real quick. JIM: Of course. LYSA: And sometimes it's, a lot of times not, not a situation that can be solved immediately. And so that nervous energy around I have to do something, I don't know what to do. Even if I do know what to do, I'm afraid of the outcome, so now I have to control the outcome. But the reality is I cannot control people who don't wanna be controlled or fixed or changed or whatever, and there's certain circumstances that are outside of my control, and that's where that spiral happens. LYSA: So it's a lot of nervous energy with no place to go. Except for me, I naturally go into that spiral. So I have had to teach myself do something else with your, with y- with that energy. And like you said, don't sit in it, don't spiral in it. And so what I usually will do, and you taught me this, Jim, set a timer. LYSA: And Lysa, you can thought spiral 'cause that's gonna happen anyways for three minutes- JIM: Yep. Let her rip … LYSA: or four minutes, five minutes. But at, but at that point, get up and change your environment. Get up and go do something else. Tell yourself, "I've given that enough mental energy. I cannot solve it in this moment, and now I'm gonna do something else." LYSA: It doesn't mean that it solves the issue. The issue is still there. It means that I'm not gonna let that nervous energy be spent in ways that ultimately will not help me. DR JOEL MUDDAMALLE: That's good. I, I think what I love about therapy and theology is how often what all of you guys are saying is just echoed in the text in the biblical text. And I would make the argument that, uh, Adam and Eve experience a deep level of anxiety after their sin which to your point, movement, action, fleeing. They Hide from God and God pursues them, you know, and calls them out of it. You can't get past Genesis chapter 4 without the Cain and Abel story, and we've talked about this before, that when the text says that Cain is downcast, the Hebrew word there for downcast is a Hebrew idiom for anxiety and depression, and JIM: Wow JOEL: it's in the midst of that state, that, um, emotional reality that the Lord speaks to him, which is kind of also a wild idea, that God actually follows Adam and Eve and their family and humanity out of Eden into exile, because you would expect silence to be the byproduct of their sin, and yet instead of silence, it's a God who speaks in the midst of the sin. JOEL: And, you know, uh, Yahweh says to, to Cain, like, "Hey, by the way," and this is Joel's paraphrase, um, like, uh, like, "You have to rule over sin," you know? Like, "Sin is crouching and waiting for you, but you've gotta..." So there's an action r- in response to it. And then I go into the New Testament, I think of Jesus, um, and I think of the Garden of Gethsemane, and if we think that in the incarnation, Jesus didn't experience insane amount of anxiety leading up to the cross JOEL: I'm not quite sure how we make sense of, uh, blood capillaries in his head bursting. Mm. So the text says that he was bleeding, like his sweat was, was full of blood. Um, I would just go to a passage like 1 Peter 5:6. Uh, it says this, "Humble yourself therefore under the mighty hand of God, so that at the proper time he may exalt you." JOEL: And then it's the second half in 7 that says, "Casting all your anxieties on him because he cares for you." JIM: Notice the movement there, casting. JOEL: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And what I think is really important is, as I read this question, I, there are two words that really stick out to me. The words are overcome and cured. And really, uh, Lysa, you've done a lot of work on this, those, and I wanna say this as loving and compassionately because this is an area that the Lord is working in my own life, those to me seem like words of control, words of I have an expectation of what I want this outcome to be, and we live in the reality of a fallen world. JOEL: And we live in the reality of truly an inability to control other people, and their chaos can come crashing into our lived experience. And so anxiety might not be something that we get to control, but what we do get to do is where we point our anxiety, what we do in response to the anxiety. JIM: So good. JOEL: And the presence of God is the promise that we are given. And I know this can feel like spiritual bypassing. I know it can feel like, well, Joel, are you just saying read the Bible and pray and, and everything will get better? And to a point, I would say kind of. JIM: I love that. JOEL: Like, kind of, uh, but it might not get better the way that you want, you know? JIM: That's good. JOEL: It might not look the way that you want, but it's gonna be exactly what, what you need. I think of, like, verse 6, that we all want the exaltation of God. But I love that the details at the proper time. Well, who's the one who knows the proper time? God is the one who knows the proper time. JOEL: Charles Spurgeon has this incredible quote about God that says, like, basically it's about being, just waiting in agony for the Lord to move, and then Spurgeon basically says, you know, God was, has never been known to be late. He's just never been known to be late. Which means that whenever God does act that is the perfect time. JIM: Yeah. And Spurgeon knew a little bit about anxiety. JOEL: He sure did. JIM: Having preachers in the wings to come in and if he couldn't make it through the sermon. I just love when we get, you know, let, let reality be what it is, and say, "Yeah, it's okay," and then what can we do about it? JOEL: Yeah. JIM: But the idea of, like, smacking a hand, stop, you know, it's a sin to have anxiety. I don't know, maybe some days it is, but other times it's just my re- And every time it comes on me, I have a chance to go vertical with God and horizontal with people to talk honestly, which is what we do so much on this podcast. JIM: We, sometimes it's embarrassing. I remember when Lysa puts us on the spot- It did ... and we're just like, "Yeah, we'll get real here. We're not posing." It's like, yeah, we have struggles, too. SHAE: I think that's a great place to end this question, because I can tell this friend has been struggling for a long time. And so I think that will really encourage them, Joel. Um, I'm gonna combine questions two and three, because they're very similar. Both dealing with husbands in active addiction. Um, one has had several affairs and is currently living with another woman, and one is in active addiction. Marriage is still, um, together but he's very emotionally shut down. Um, what encouragement do you guys have to these, to these ladies, and, and any direction or, um, next steps as well? LYSA: One of the most helpful things that Jim taught me when I was in this situation in my previous marriage is that when I am, or when I was talking to him, Jim taught me to take a pillow and put it in front of my face and i- you know, in front of his face, and realize that you're talking into the addiction. Like, the addiction is what's driving the ship right now. And so w- the addiction, um, there's things that you have to mentally know in order to strategically be able to navigate a very challenging situation. LYSA: One of those is to someone who's in active addiction, the truth is not what lines up with the facts. The truth is whatever protects the addiction. JOEL: That's right. JIM: Hmm. JOEL: So good. LYSA: And so that's really hard, you know, because I think you're always going to be navigating what's actually true, what's a half-truth, what's a truth that's been spun, what's a full-out lie, what's a lie of omission, you know? LYSA: I mean, there's just a lot to navigate there. But I think if we can understand that, then it helps us not to get swallowed up in anger toward the other person. It does not let them off the hook, but I think it will help us make sense of something that doesn't make any sense at all. Like, why are you lying about that? That makes no sense at all, you know? Just remember, it's the addiction that's driving the, the, the person right now. And the addiction, the truth to an addiction is whatever protects the addiction. So that's really good. LYSA: The second thing that I would say is you're not gonna be able to be their savior. JIM: Much as you might wanna be. LYSA: As much as you wanna be. Oh, so much. And boy, did I wanna be. Yeah. And sometimes it can feel like we are protecting both them and ourselves and our children if we continue to catch them before they hit rock bottom. If we continue to navigate around making them okay, you know? LYSA: And of course, the best definition of codependency I've ever heard, and it's not that I wanna shift, like let's talk about codependency now, but often if you're in a situation doing life with an addict, everybody is getting sicker. JIM: That's true. LYSA: Nobody is getting better. And for me, I'll just put it on me, um, I was, I was in classic, um, codependency. I didn't even realize it. But the best definition is I need you to be okay so that I can be okay. So how can I make you okay? 'Cause I really wanna feel okay, okay? First of all they're not, they're not concerned about making you okay, right? And also, when someone's in active addiction, their definition of being okay and your definition of being okay are gonna be vastly different. LYSA: They're, they don't want the normalcy that you crave because there's chaos going inside of them. Right. There's a lot of chaos going on. And in order to reach a state of equilibrium, they have to let chaos also play out around them. And then the addiction is the solve to the chaos, both internally and externally. LYSA: So you start messing with someone who has an addiction, that they're using that addiction as a coping mechanism to calm down the chaos, then you tell them you're gonna take away the addiction or demand that they stop, which they should, but just know what you're dealing with. That means that the chaos around them, the chaos inside of them is gonna escalate, and it's time to call in the professionals. LYSA: You know, this isn't gonna be something that you're gonna be able to just navigate on your own. And that's the last thing I would say, don't go at this alone. I know it can feel scary to invite in people into this very private world of deep pain and lots of secrecy. You don't wanna invite everybody in, but you do wanna invite the right people in. JOEL: Yeah. I wanna, um, teach you two Hebrew words. One is shuv and the other is barach. Um, shuv is the word that we would translate in English as repentance, and the interesting thing about shuv is that it has in mind turning away from, but also returning to. Something that I teach, uh, at our Haven Place retreats, because so many, and I hear this in this question, so much of the pain and the agony is this discombobulation and disorientation because you've seen maybe in a moment a turning away from. You got caught up in one addiction- JIM: Yeah, it's so good JOEL: and then you turn away from one addiction and and you start to feel some level of, um, sobriety and homeostasis, and then all of a sudden the rug gets pulled out underneath your feet, and you're like, "What just happened?" And you say, "Oh," you turn away from one addiction, you just turn to another addiction to replace that, that one, or you go back to the old addiction. JOEL: And the plight of the Israelites throughout the entire Old Testament into the New Testament is a issue of repentance. It's an issue of shuv, is they would turn away from one idol, but instead of returning to Yahweh, they would turn to another idol, you know? JIM: They had their high places. JOEL: Yeah. Their altars, their high places, their, um, even, this is sometimes really hard, even doing good things that were more about self-gratification than God exaltation. JIM: Wow. JOEL: And that is devastating. When you think of, you know, um, that reality as well, uh, and selfish ambition and vain conceit. The, the second word is barach. It's famous, like Psalm 51, where, you know, David cries out, "Create in me a new heart, O God." Um, that word does not have in mind, and we're, I'm a big fan of Chip and Joanna Gaines. JOEL: I think we all are probably, right? This is not like a renovation show. It's like- That's good ... "Hey, come into my heart. My heart's a little jacked up. Um, like, can we renovate it, clean it up?" You know? That's not what the word has in mind, and it has in mind new creation. Hmm. Um, my dad earlier in the year, he had, um, heart, uh, triple, triple bypass surgery for his heart, and my, one of my mom's friends is, like, a leading heart transplant surgeon. JOEL: And so he happened to be in the area at the time that my dad's triple bypass was going on, and so he kinda came in, was talking to the, you know, and came to us later, and, and he goes, literally while we're talking, he, he gets a phone call, and he goes, "Guys, I gotta go." We're like, "Oh, what happened?" Well, when a heart transplant, when a heart becomes available, he's got, he literally will j- jump on a private jet, whatever he's gotta do to get to where the heart is to be able to grab, literally grab it, take it, and bring it to a new location. And in a spiritual sense, when it comes to sin, like, this is what we need. We need a heart transplant, and the master surgeon is Yahweh, and he is the one who's gonna bring us the new heart. This is what is promised to us in the Holy Spirit that brings us, uh, into life and truth. JIM: And so I would just want to maybe encourage you in prayer to pray for these two things, for this person. Pray for true authentic repentance, a turning away and a returning to, and pray for that heart transplant. Because from a spiritual standpoint, um, it's all about that really. JIM: You've described what I call, uh, and very important to the-- both these issues, alcohol and infidelity, uh, what I call relational vertigo. JIM: Literally, your room is spinning, your life is spinning, and, um, so the idea of being grounded, knowing what you wanna do, be able to look at... There's a, a great book called Good Boundaries and Goodbyes to look at putting boundaries in. Boy, that's hard because a boundary without a consequence, we know, is a mere suggestion. JIM: The alcohol issue is great. I'd like to say one thing. Many things there, I would go and attend Al-Anon meetings. Google that, ChatGPT it, whatever, but I would take you in there 'cause you can look so much, which is common, at him, or if it's a her, her or what they're doing. Secondly, which is much broader and more severe in the first question that we've combined, if someone's in active addiction, they're committing adultery, and oh, by the way, that says, with great respect to this dear listener, uh, that he's living with a woman now. JIM: You better be careful About STDs and STIs. And so the idea is that person's, like, really broken their covenant between each other. They're out doing that, and sometimes I've seen this, I've seen it, w- I, I think thousands of women, uh, at Haven Place, quite frankly. I, with talking with the, many of the women there, that they're looking and say, he may have been gone five years. JIM: And they're still back, which I get, stuck in time saying, "Yeah, but maybe he'll come back," or, "What do I do?" You wanna really keep yourself safe there with those issues. And always, you know, sure, I'm the therapist, go put yourself in counseling and let you process the facts and the impact of what's going on. Um, at one level, the adultery is probably far more dangerous in a marriage than alcohol. LYSA: And it can feel like if the other person doesn't change, things are never going to get better. JIM: Yeah. True. LYSA: So I think we have to flip that and say, I need to get better. Yeah. And so what can I do to tend well to my mental health, to my physical health, like you just said um, to my spiritual health? Yeah. And, um, at some point, I, sometimes I don't like this sentiment, but I'm gonna say it anyways 'cause it so very applies here. And you've probably heard it, it's a secular statement, but, you know, work on your side of the street and let him or you know, whoever the addict is, let them work on their side of the street. LYSA: And sometimes those two will come back together- JIM: Come back together LYSA: if they've both been working and moving in the right direction toward healing. But sometimes it won't. But regardless is you're, you've also taught me this, Jim, you're as, you're, um, as sick as your secrets. You know? LYSA: And so stop the secrecy. Find someone, like Jim said, Al-Anon, that's a great resource, or a Christian therapist who is trained in addictions, betrayal trauma and all of that, and go ahead and get unstuck. Stuck is a trauma word. And so if you're stuck waiting for them to get better, um- ... chances are you, you're putting all of your ability to move forward into the choices this other person may never, ever make. LYSA: So you go ahead. You pursue healing. You pursue what Joel said, you know, really praying, getting into God's word. Get some good therapy. Go to the meetings, whatever you need to do so that you can continue to move forward. JOEL: And a point of clarification, I think, also is, like, prayer doesn't mean that you just invite more pain and suffering into your life. Right? Like, throughout the entirety of scripture, you've got Israel in their sin and Yahweh giving consequences for their behavior. You know? Um, He lets the Assyrians come in. He lets the Babylon- He lets the Egyptians... I mean, um, there is a cost. Now, we wanna be careful that we don't translate and equate a one-for-one equation there. JOEL: But as I've said often, the Bible's less about policy and more about principles. There's a principle at play here. And so I wanna be careful that this doesn't come off as like, "Oh, just pray and everything is gonna get better.” But it's like, no, pray and be wise and establish boundaries. And, and be safe and ensure your health. I think of Romans 12, "If possible, so far as it depends on you, pursue peace." Paul anticipates it might not be possible. But you're still on the hook for peace, so you've gotta be responsible for that aspect of it. SHAE: That's great. Okay, for question four, I'm gonna start with you, Joel, and then Lysa and Jim, if y'all have anything to add, of course, chime in. So, um, this person asked, "What is the difference between submission and subordination? I'm thinking of the Bible verse that says, 'Wives, submit to your husband.'" JOEL: Yeah, this is a good one. This is in Ephesians. We need to do a longer episode on this at some point, but what's very fascinating is in Ephesians, I think it's Ephesians 5. Am I right, Jim? JIM: Yeah. It is. JOEL: Ephesians 5:21. Um, you know, what's so fascinating about that is when you find, um, the, uh, the verse there for, um, submit, the, the Greek word for submission there, it has in mind yielding. It has in mind willful yielding. So this is really important. The other thing too is that that verb to submit, it's actually being supplied by a head verb. Little grammatical issue here. In the actual Greek text, when you go and look at an interlinear, in Ephesians 5:21 where it says, "And wives submit to your husbands," the actual Greek word for submit is not found in the text. Be very careful. Listen to what I'm saying and what I'm not saying, okay? JOEL: This is so important to me. Don't weaponize what I'm about to say. Um, it's not that it doesn't belong there. It just means that the idea of submission there is appropriate. However, it comes from a prior example, and the prior example is mutual submission to Christ. So in the verse leading up to that, it goes, oh, when two people willfully yield to King Jesus, then there is a, um, a beauty of a willful yielding in a marriage relationship that is ultimately yielding to, yielding to Jesus. JOEL: Um, that is vastly different from the concept of subordination. The concept of subordination is rooted in a kind of hierarchy that says, "It don't matter who you are the fact that you're made in the image of God i, it is, I am who I am." And honestly, I, I probably need therapy for this, Jim, and I've traumatized my kids. JOEL: It's that moment where you just freak out with your kids, and you just go... Like, they're like, "Why? Why? Why?" And you say, "'Cause I'm parent. 'Cause I said so." You know? JIM: Well, you get to be human. JOEL: Right. And that's not what's in mind in Ephesians 5:21. It is an idea of a willful yielding that is first and foremost rooted in two people who are yielded to Christ which means the yielding to Christ takes priority. Which from a logic standpoint says, if those two people, let's say the husband for instance, is not yielded to Christ, how can you yield to a husband who is unyielded to Christ? Because your primary responsibility is to yield to Christ. Which therefore makes Ephesians 5:21 impossible if the person is not first and foremost yielded to Christ. JOEL: Welcome to my Greek lesson. JIM: I love that, man. LYSA: Um, okay, it's actually Ephesians 5:22. JOEL: 22. LYSA: I, I love it when I have a moment where I can correct a theologian. It never happens. SHAE: It rarely happens. LYSA: So can I bask in this moment right now? JOEL: You got it. You got it. LYSA: But I'm glad that you were saying 21 as well, because yeah, Ephesians 5:21 says, "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ" Yeah ... which you so beautifully unpacked. And what's so interesting there is, um, in verse 18, it says, "Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit." So all of this is a precursor- JOEL: Right LYSA: to what, you know, you were just saying. Speaking to one another, um, with psalms, hymns, songs from the Spirit. So what I hear there is be filled with the Spirit, which means be led by the Spirit, have, have the Spirit's intention for love being seeking the other person's highest good, um, modeling what Christ was to the church. And so when all of that is the tone of the language that we're using and we are both, verse 21, submitting, um, to one another out of reverence to Christ, then it provides the safe container, the environment, um, the right atmosphere for the wife to feel safe- Submitting. LYSA: And submitting does not mean to be subservient- JOEL: Right LYSA: right? At all. Mm-hmm. And so Joel, I think that's another thing that I've heard you teach on. It's not a submission where it's like you be the servant, you be subservient to him, you let him treat you however you want... uh, however he wants to be treated. That's not it at all. JOEL: Right. Right. Absolutely. Um, and, and again, when you take one verse, it's so important, y'all, that we don't create entire theology and doctrine out of one verse in isolation. We've gotta read these verses in the larger console of scripture and in the testimony of God's word about what he says about women, what he says about men, and what he says about godly, uh, marriage. JOEL: And the other thing, and you pointed this out, Lysa, and I love this, is, uh, another nerdy theology, uh, lesson here. Um, the subheadings of our Biblical text are not original. LYSA: Yeah. JIM: Nor are the chapter and verse divisions. JOEL: Nor are the chapter and verse divisions. JIM: Let's be honest. JOEL: So to your point, in your Bibles, you might look and go, "Wait a minute. There's a break. It says, 'Instructions for Christian households,'" then it goes to verse 21. The way that the first century church would have read this, the church in Ephesus, is one consistent letter. So they would have mentally, conceptually connected everything that Lysa said about this, um, like- Living in the flesh versus living in the spirit, and how that is directly connected to this idea of submission. So I love that you drew that out. LYSA: Yeah, and if you wanna go all the way back to verse 15, it, it actually says, "Be careful then how you live." "Not as unwise- JIM: Come on LYSA: but as wise." JOEL: Wise, yeah. JIM: Amen. LYSA: "Making the most of every opportunity because the days are evil." Verse 17, "Therefore, do not be foolish." Don't be foolish. “Um, but understand what the Lord's will is. And the Lord's will is never for an image-bearer of Christ, the wife, to be, um, emotionally, physically, spiritually, sexually abused- JIM: Amen LYSA: in any way- Any way ... um, by the husband. And it goes both ways, you know. Obviously you can have a husband in that situation, too. Um, but I think, you know, be careful how you live and, um, don't be foolish, you know. And I think be filled with the Spirit and have mutual submission out of reverence to Christ, and then after all of that, it says, "Wives, submit to your husbands." And it goes on to give great instruction to the man as well. "Husbands, love your wives. Husbands, love your wives. Husbands, love your wives." It's like, I just have to make a funny here. The women are being instructed one time, and the men- JIM: Yeah, we're hardheaded ... LYSA: "Husbands, love your wives," it's over and over and over and over. I mean, I think it's repeated- JIM: Of course LYSA: four or five times. So I just say the container of this verse is very important. JOEL: Well, and you drew this out, even I can't help myself. JIM: Hello. JOEL: We're already there, so let's just go there. In the ancient world, um, to hear, "Wives, submit to your husband," it would've been like, "Oh, yeah. Okay." But the second he gets to husbands now, like, "Love your wives, sub..." Like, like have this, the, the jaws of every dude in that church would have dropped. How dare you, Paul, call men to responsibility and account, and yet to your point, Lysa, vast more opportunity and time and space is actually given to the direction of husbands than to the actual women here. So I think, like, there's actually- JOEL: a Biblical, exegetical clue that we should actually read it the way that the ancient readers would've read it, which is like, oh, yeah, the wives part, yeah, mutual yielding, but the dudes? We gotta get our act together here. SHAE: It's so good. I love that. JIM: Amen. SHAE: Okay, for question five, a little bit of a precursor here, because you talked about with the previous question, Joel, that, um, the Bible talks about sometimes it is not possible to maintain peace in all relationships, and you'll also have an entire series that you've done on the podcast before about surviving an unwanted divorce. SHAE: The reason I pulled this question is because it's a little bit more niche. I don't think we've addressed it specifically, but I think it's really important, and I think it's applicable to a lot of seasons that people are in, um, which is going through a divorce in the later years of life when your kids are older. SHAE: And so this question says, "After divorce, how can I encourage my young adult children to process the emotional abuse and childhood issues in a healthy way sooner than later?” So, how can I encourage, it sounds like, uh, maybe as a mom, my kids in their own emotional healing journey as she is in her own emotional healing journey as well? LYSA: Well, I don't know the ultimate answer to this question. Without more specific dynamics- it's really hard to give, you know, advice in a scenario. We just don't know what i- what all is happening. I can speak from my experience. I knew that I was not going to be able to step in and control whether or not my children went to therapy. LYSA: I was not gonna be able to control their journey of healing. I was not gonna be able to control, again, and there's a reason I'm saying this word over and over, um, I was not gonna be able to control the outcome of what my kids might suffer through. Um, what, you know, how they processed, um, all that, you know, they experienced in the realities that led up to the unwanted divorce. LYSA: And so I think it's really important for us to understand we can provide opportunity, but we cannot control the outcome. SHAE: That's great. JOEL: Mm. LYSA: And as a mom, I wanted to be responsible and not controlling. And there's a big difference between those two. Controlling means I'm only willing to accept the outcome that I think is best, and I'll do everything to steer everyone in that direction. LYSA: Responsibility is I'll do what I am able to do, but regarding the outcome, I must leave that. I must entrust that. I must s- you know, like submit that to the Lord. And trust that He loves my kids even more than I do. Um, so when I say provide the opportunity, I offered for a season to pay for my kids if they wanted to go to therapy. LYSA: That, there's a very practical reason. Therapy's expensive. It's worth it, but it is expensive. And they were at ages and stages, um, that they couldn't afford it. They were in their young 20s. Several of them were just getting married. So it was not something that was gonna be realistic for them financially, so I provided the opportunity. LYSA: I could even make suggestions to some good books to read, some podcasts to listen to, um, s- a therapist that I highly recommended. He might, may or may not be sitting here at this table. JIM: Oh, hello. LYSA: Um, but I didn't want to chase them down or manipulate them or bribe them with anything. I just provided the opportunity. SHAE: That's so good. LYSA: And I'm, I'm very, um, passionate about that. It would be interesting one day, Shae, if we could ever talk some of my kids into coming on to share some of their experiences, which they do sometimes at our Haven Place Retreats. Um, but we'll save that for another day. SHAE: That's great wisdom. JIM: Well, I would like to speak to that very practically. Um, invite your kids. Would you like a cup of coffee? And if so, I have this brand of coffee. Would you like something in the coffee? What's the metaphor is just, I'm a parent, too, of adult children. I get it. And with that is the idea of embracing, one day somebody needs to write a book about making peace with what you can't control. JIM: It would be helpful. And I don't doubt your motive, dear listener. Uh, it's the modus oper- modus operandi, that the method of operating can be there. And so what I mean by the coffee is to say, "Hey, Lysa's already gone there. Um, would you like to talk about it?" Always use this line. If you slow it down, you'll hear it. JIM: "Son or daughter, do you have it to give to have this conversation? Are you open to a thought I have?" And you're very- Mm ... appropriately passive. "Are you open to a thought?" A- and see, paying for counseling. Are they willing to talk about it? And then listen to their own boundaries. If they're like, "We don't wanna talk about this," thank you for advising. JIM: We'll get back to you if you want counseling and all that, or if you wanna talk about this. Bigger than that, if you were sitting in my office or we were just having coffee, I would say, "Can we get to, if not indeed start with, I wanna slow down and go into your internal world. What's going on?" What if they bond with your ex, if that's in there, or they choose to be with him, or if they do this pandemic we’re in of adult kids alienating their parents with no reason? JIM: Always go to your internal world, and yes, with Jesus, and with a good friend or in therapy, and say, "What is going on in me about the lack of control over my kids?" Are you thinking you were a bad parent, you're still a bad parent? Mm. What if they take-- and make really bad decisions? What if they cut you off? JIM: Please do it with another person. Do your own internal work about what's going on in your internal world. And 'cause you've said it publicly, Lysa, you did that. And there were things, you remember the house thing and what time you came in, and you've said this publicly. I, I, I, you know, my friends or my kids, and I've, I've have my home and I'm alone in there. JIM: And once again, you thought I was crazy when I said, "The very thing that you probably don't wanna do, which makes sense, go into the house just a little bit.” Be in there. P- journal, pay attention to your internal world of the, the very existential loneliness that. is there and what you can't control. Counterintuitive, but it's actually very intuitive when you think about it. LYSA: I agree with you. SHAE: So good. Okay, this next question I feel like so many people can relate to, so I'm really glad that it was asked. They say, "I've read the Bible numerous times and completed countless Bible studies, yet I have never sensed God's intimate presence with me. Why does He feel so distant or absent, absent? How can I be certain that I'm discerning or obeying His will versus my own will? I'm a devout Christian and have recognized many God-giving blessings and answered prayers throughout my life, but I've never felt Him speak to me specifically. Why is this?" And then they say, "Thank you for this opportunity to submit questions." SHAE: I feel all eyes going to Joel on this one. JOEL: I know. I fe- I felt it too. SHAE: You felt it? JOEL: You know, uh, I would just say, um I get it. JIM: Oh, amen. JOEL: Like, I get it. Um, and it is hard. It's really hard. Uh, especially when you're desperate to hear God's voice and you're desperate to feel his presence, and you just want him to, to move a- and speak. Uh, there's a lot of theological, scriptural, 30,000 feet things that I could say right now, and honestly, we've done them on so many of our, our episodes, so I'm gonna do something a little bit different this time. JOEL: I'm gonna give you a personal example of how I experienced it. You see, I, I have created a vision in my brain of what it looks like for God to speak to me, you know? Hm. I want audible voice. I want aha moment in the scriptures where I just feel this deep sense of the Spirit of God illuminating the text to me. JOEL: Um, I, I want these kinds of things. I would even opt for a Moses on Mount Sinai in a burning bush. JIM: Sure, why not? JOEL: Lord, if you're listening right now- LYSA: Yeah JOEL: that's cool, right? LYSA: Exactly. JOEL: Here's how the Lord met me, uh, in one of my seasons of just desperation, honestly. I came home the other day, and my daughter MJ ran to me and said, "Dada, guess what?" JOEL: And she had her hands over her mouth. "Dada, guess what?" And I said, "What?" And she gave me the biggest smile, and y'all, I'm not joking. This girl is losing teeth like nobody's business. The, her front mouth is gone. There are no teeth in her front mouth. She's just got, like, two fangs on the side of her mouth. JOEL: And she said, "Look what I can do," and she brought this Pepsi and a straw, and she put the straw in, and I cannot tell you in that moment, the kind of joy and, and, you know? And there's a part of me that would've just said, "That's just a sweet, beautiful moment with my daughter." But when I look at, like, the large console of scripture, I go, "This is evidence of a good God who's speaking to me through my daughter." JOEL: And I wanna open myself up to experience God not in the way that I want him to speak to me but to be open to the miraculous ways and the uncanny ways and the minute and nuanced ways that he wants to speak to me. And in that situation, it was my daughter's toothless face that just brought joy to my heart for about a split second. JOEL: Before, and again, um, what is, a, a commitment to honesty or, you know- JIM: At all costs JOEL: at all costs. Uh-huh. About 60 seconds to a minute and a half later, I was back to, "This is hard." "This is hard." But, like, right now, thinking back upon that memory I go, "Hm, that was a sweet moment." JIM: It is. It was. LYSA: And I think sometimes it's good to ask yourself the question, you know, what may be blocking the, um, the connection that I have with God? LYSA: Sometimes God has given us instructions or, you know, like a, I don't know if it's a command, but just guidance in what we should do about a previous situation. We felt conviction. We heard it in a sermon. It was validated by something another friend said. And when you hear this repetitive theme, I- Like to ask myself, go back to the last time that you know God was convicting you of something, and have you tended well to that? LYSA: Um, but then as you're doing that, have this thought. In 1 John chapter two, um, starting in verse one. I just wanna read this, and I, I'm surprised by this verse every time. "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin," and here it comes, "we have an advocate- Mm ... with the Father, Jesus Christ." LYSA: You know, sometimes I think when I'm, you know, when I've done something in disobedience, you know, I don't often think Jesus is gonna be my advocate. You know, when I'm, I'm being disobedient, you know? And I think we've gotta change our perspective from, you know, the Lord must be very angry at me right now, the Lord must really wanna put a lightning bolt down from heaven to strike me, you know? But instead it's like, no, you have an advocate Jesus Christ, who is right there with you. He is the righteous one. It goes on to say, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins. And not only ours, but also the sins of the whole world." And I love that picture. I love that thought. LYSA: You know, Jesus isn't out to get you. Yeah. The Lord's not waiting for you to do something bad to smack you down and take away all the blessings, you know? That's not what's going on here. Um, Jesus is your advocate. He's there. He loves you. And yes, we can't physically see him. Yes, we may not know for sure, is this God's voice? Is it not God's voice? But if you put yourself in the right environment, listening to praise music, when you get into God's word, that is, the word of God is the will of God, and that is him speaking to you. JIM: Amen. LYSA: And, um, and then surrounding yourself with other Christians, and then like Joel said, look for his presence and practice being aware of his presence in the everyday moments. SHAE: Yes. That's great. JIM: I'd like to speak to a couple of things, and I think, uh, simply but not simplistically. There's a German proverb that says bidden. Bidden means, is an old word, come here. Come here, God. Bidden or not bidden, God is present. Mm. And sometimes we hang onto that and say, "Whether I feel you there or not." JIM: Secondly, two kinds of revelation. Everybody at the table knows this. General revelation, Bible speaks to it, get out in nature and look. I mean, nature is speaking all the time. And special revelation, Lysa just went there, and that is to the word of God, and there's just a lot right here that God is speaking in. JIM: And then there's a famous poet, um, one of the very famous old, old, old poets that said this, and it really hit me in this very journey. And that is, he said, "How many times," and I make this about God- Listen to this: How many times have I lost consciousness in your listening silence? And I literally, that just, I dropped everything I was doing at that moment and I said, "I wanna be that much more, ever more getting mature journey, being truly an adult with God," yes, with the faith of an inner child, a little child. JIM: But to say, "God, whether you're speaking or not, I will just rest and kind of lose consciousness in your listening silence. I know you're there." And then it's pretty cool, sometimes I've had it happen in my office, and many of you may have seen my office, just been around it, and a deer will walk. Guy was questioning his manhood and this buck deer walked right up 'cause I'm surrounded by woods, and just stood and looked right at him. That's a God moment for me. A red cardinal coming or something, and I'm saying, "I don't know if that's real, but I think, God, I think you're speaking." I've had clients begin to just cry and say, where a hawk came down where there was an affair, and just stood there, and it was on a branch right outside my office. And I'm getting chills, like, "God, you're speaking in nature. I don't have to prove it empirically, but I believe you are." Yeah. SHAE: It's beautiful. LYSA: I had one of those situations recently, Jim, and, um, it, it just stopped me and grabbed my attention, and I immediately attributed it to God. But Chaz and I were very stressed about a situation. We went out to dinner to process the situation. We looked out the window, um, and we were at, um, a restaurant that overlooked the beach. And when I turned to the window, there was this huge rainbow, and it was probably the most vibrant rainbow. I mean, Roy G. Biv, you know You could really see all the colors. LYSA: And the thing that grabbed my attention even more than the rainbow was the placement of the rainbow. To the left of the rainbow, it was a bright, sunny, beautiful day, blue sky. To the left of the rainbow, it was dark clouds stormy. I mean, it, it w- and then the rainbow split the two right in front of us. JIM: Wow. LYSA: And this is the thought that came to my mind. What always sits between the storms of our life and the peace that we crave is the promise of God. And that was not something that I came up with on my own. I really felt like in that moment I was experiencing the presence of God, and what he whispered, I feel like he whispered something to that effect, or that the right environment was set so that thought could come into my mind. But I knew it was straight from the Lord. SHAE: That's beautiful. JOEL: Hallelujah. So good. SHAE: Thank you guys for sharing. Okay, last question, and I intentionally picked this one as our last question because it's a little bit of a sneak peek or an appetizer of maybe some concepts that we're gonna cover on the podcast later this year. SHAE: So, um, more, if you're, if you're longing for more after this question and answer, know that there's more coming. So they say, "I have heard people say that our s- sinful thoughts are the work of Satan, while others say Satan cannot read our minds or influence our thoughts unless God permits it. Which one is true? Are my sinful thoughts a result of being, of me being evil, or are they- Wow ... truly Satan being able to read my thoughts and attack my mind?" JOEL: Yeah. So, um, I cover a lot of these concepts in The Unseen Battle, but one of the things that I just wanna do for us is to create clear categories of what this, the enemy is and what the enemy is not. So you'll notice already, and this, you know, is my dear friend Jim has taught us, is that our words frame our reality. And so I want us to be intentional with our words. And so often, like even me, like I'm like, "Oh, the Sa- like Satan did this," or, "Satan made me do that," or, "Satan, you know, presented this." JOEL: And yet Satan is a limited cre- creaturely being created by God, which means that Satan is not on par with Yahweh. LYSA: He's not omnipresent. JOEL: He's not omnipresent, right? Like, like we have what sis- theologians call the incommunicable attributes of God. And then you have, um, omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence. He's all-knowing in all places, uh, all-powerful. Uh, the enemy is not all those things, limited in time and space. And so with that, we have to consider what can the enemy do in light of the enemy's limitations? And here's what the enemy loves to do. The enemy loves to mass-market sin. Loves to mass-market sin. JOEL: There is a reason, one, why we do therapy and theology. There's a reason why even now, Shai, I know you know this as well, when we go out places, there is consistently, and it doesn't matter what environment we're in, somehow it always comes back to therapy and theology, and there's questions of addiction, there's questions of pornography, there's questions of habitual lying and infidelity. JOEL: And once again, the enemy loves to mass-market sin. So just kind of straightforward, and I know we've got an entire, uh, content that's coming up that I don't wanna, um, lose sight of, but can the enemy read our minds? Can the enemy come into our minds, manipulate our minds? Uh, I would say that what the enemy loves to do is set up systems and structures in order to work with the already fallen nature of our human nature, human flesh, and to entice us into these things. JOEL: And here's the deal. When, um, in Peter it says, "Don't give the enemy a foothold," the wh- entire purpose of a foothold is not to stay on the outside. It's not to stay in the peripheral. It's to get closer in and deeper in. So whatever you and I abdicate willingly, that we take a step back because of, again, habitual lying, pornography usage, um, infidel- like all those kinds of things, every step back, the enemy is happy to take a step forward. JOEL: Um, and so yeah, I would say that the enemy has some power and ability. And the Spirit of God is present, alive, well, indwelling inside of us. And if you're a believer who has submitted to King Jesus, we do not wrestle flesh and blood. There, there is a struggle against powers, principalities, authorities, as Ephesians chapter 6, and we have the entirety of the armor of God that is present for us. And, um, I think it's really important that we recognize that as well, and we take responsibility for what is our actions and our responsibilities or our areas of sin, and we also recognize that the enemy wants to almost be like a steroid shot, to take those things and to expand them, to motivate us into a kind of living that ultimately disconnects us from the goodness of God. LYSA: I think we also have to remember, along with the systems and structures, there's also scenarios too- JOEL: Yes … LYSA: where we can be in a situation where either someone speaks something to us or over us, and it's a line spoken to us that then gets into our minds that we ruminate on and think about and spiral over, and that line can become a lie that we believe, and that lie we believe can then so easily become a- I guess you would say like a liability in how we process everything else that we're thinking about. Um, negative thoughts will never lead to positive outcomes. JOEL: Mm-hmm. JIM: That's so good. LYSA: And I don't wanna get into like, let's talk about positivity. That's not it. I'm saying while the enemy cannot get into our mind, he can set up a scenario where there are lines spoken over us that we think about over and over and over and over. And we've gotta be very careful the thoughts that show up on our mind, and we cannot live right if we do not think right. Um, there's a couple of verses. Um, Colossians 3:2, we've gotta choose our thoughts. Proverbs 23:7, you are what you think. Romans 12:2, be renewed in your mind. Ephesians 4:29, watch how you then use your words. LYSA: And so I think it's really important that we pay close attention to what we're thinking about and the lies that we might be believing. JIM: No matter where the thoughts come from, to be very practical, therapeutic if you will, and biblical, how about 2 Corinthians 10:4? And I don't... And 5. Uh, I don't care where the thoughts come from. Are they from Satan or not? Take every thought captive. You're gonna be busy taking every, and every in the Greek means every. Every time, every thought captive, but making it obedient to Christ and speak the truth over it. And we have the temptation account with Jesus, where Satan was speaking lies. JIM: If you look at it, lies, some half-truths at one level. Well, didn't God say, and all the Lord Jesus Christ did was quote the Bible, quote scriptures right back. We have agency and power of quoting the word of God and not worrying about where the thoughts come from. JOEL: 1 Peter 5:8 says to be sober-minded. Um, it says, "Be watchful. Your adversary, the devil, prowl- prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour." The word sober-minded there has in mind, um, uh, an opposite that in the ancient world people would've instantly known, and it was the kind of activity that was done in temples and oracles, the Oracle of Delphi, where they would take hallucinative drugs in order to be compromised of mind, so that they could experience spiritual beings essentially, you know? And, um, I, once again- Uh, a- addictions, drugs, alcohol, pornography. There's neurochemical issues that are happening, right? So we know that. We talk about that a lot. The one that I've been deeply convicted of recently in terms of the sober-minded nature and the tactics of the enemy is something as simple as our cell phones. JOEL: As social media, as our doom scrolling. My kids the other day were talking about brain rot. I don't know if you heard about this, right? You know, brain rot, and it's like, wait a minute, this is all, this is a different kind of addiction now that's being presented. It is. And it is a tactic of the enemy, and what ends up happening sometimes is we like to create nice and neat, um, demarcated boxes. This is earthly, this is spiritual. This is physical, this is emotional. JOEL: The Bible doesn't create those categories. The Bible says yes. The Bible says yes. Yeah. This is earthly, yes. This is physical, yes. It's spiritual, yes. It's emotional, yes. And so, uh, in the same way, one of the things I love that you do, Jim, and that we've seen Lysa, you model for us, is a holistic approach to health and healing. I think we ought to do the same here, and we ought to recognize again and discern, here's what is earthly, physical, emotional. Here's where we need medicine to help chemical imbalances. And here's where we need some, some prayer, some anointing oil. JIM: Yeah, come on. JOEL: Here's where we need fasting. Here's where we need to attack this thing from a spiritual standpoint as well. SHAE: So good, guys. Y'all have given us so much goodness- ... in such a short amount of time, and I'm so thankful. I'm thankful that we were able to dive into these questions, um, and thank you for your time today. SHAE: And now it's time for listener mail, where we respond to your questions. Today's listener mail is brought to you by Compassion International, which I'm so excited to tell you more about. Compassion is fighting child poverty in powerful, practical ways. Through the work of local churches and the generosity of sponsors like you and me, Compassion is releasing children from poverty in Jesus' name. SHAE: We've seen the impact of sponsorship firsthand through education, medical care, healthy food, clean water, and the love and hope of the Gospel. And now we want to invite you to join us in sponsoring a child. When you sponsor, you'll receive a copy of the Proverbs 31 Ministries study guide titled Keep Holding On as our thank you for investing in the life of a child. Go to compassion.com/Lysa to choose a child to sponsor today. SHAE: Okay, friends, let's hear today's question. This listener says, "How do you draw healthy boundaries with a family member who is an alcoholic and emotionally abusive? Their behavior is really starting to affect me and my children, and I need to know what is right for my kids." I'm gonna pass it off to Lysa TerKeurst to answer this question. LYSA: If their behavior is starting to affect you, and especially if it's affecting your children, then you absolutely need to learn to draw some healthy boundaries. And the best time to think through these boundaries is beforehand, before you get together. LYSA: Um, remember, boundaries are an effective communication tool, and it's your opportunity to establish in a non-emotional, non-confrontational time what is and is not acceptable, what you will and will not tolerate, what you do and do not have to give. So think ahead of time about how you can put a boundary, not necessarily on them. LYSA: Remember, you're not gonna want to try to control them, to fix them, to change them because we all know if a person is unwilling or unable to change, then no matter how much external pressure you put on them trying to use a boundary, um, if they don't wanna change, then you're not gonna be able to change them. LYSA: So instead of trying to put a boundary on them and try to do behavior modification with them, what you wanna do is put a boundary on yourself. And it's really good to think about communicating boundaries with if this, then this. It's basically you communicating ahead of time the protocol of how you're gonna handle certain situations. LYSA: And you can communicate that with love and respect, and it doesn't have to be this hard, horrible conversation. It just needs to be clear, and then you need to follow through. So let me give you an example. Um, you know, you mentioned that your family member is an alcoholic and emotionally abusive, which tells me that they're probably saying things that are harsh and doing things that you don't feel are appropriate for your kids and that certainly don't bring out the best in you. LYSA: So let's say you're getting together at Thanksgiving, and you know-- I'll just use this as an example, Uncle Fred. Now, let me clearly state, I do not have an Uncle Fred, and if you do have an Uncle Fred, I'm not talking about your Uncle Fred. I'm doing hypothetically here. So hypothetically, Uncle Fred, um, is… He tends to, at family gatherings, drink too much and then start saying things that make you very uncomfortable. So you can communicate ahead of time. Remember, not trying to fix him or change him, but having a protocol for yourself of what to do if he crosses this boundary. LYSA: So the boundary would go something like this: "Fred, I love that we're gonna see each other at Thanksgiving," um, if that's true, if you do love him, or you can change that first statement if there's other dynamics at play. But what I would say is, "Fred, I love that I'm gonna get to see you at Thanksgiving, and I wanna let you know that I'm really trying to protect my emotional, um, well-being. And also because I have small children, I'm requesting that, um, that there's no drinking at this Thanksgiving holiday, um, and if there is drinking, that it's not done in front of my children. LYSA: My second request is that certain topics not get brought up or that when we're having discussions that no harsh or cuss words are being used, um, in front of me or my children.” Now, obviously, if that happens, that's totally your choice. But here is my response, and I just wanna inform you ahead of time so that you don't get offended if this happens. LYSA: But my response will be that I'll take my children in a different room and, or we may leave the gathering early because, again, I'm trying to protect both the emotional well-being, being of myself and my children. Now, um, no part of that is meant to be offensive or harsh toward Fred, but it is meant to be crystal clear, and here's the most important thing. I mentioned it before. Follow through. LYSA: When and if Fred starts drinking, and when and if Fred starts using language you're uncomfortable with, then you need to go ahead and follow through with the boundary that was stated. A boundary without a consequence, my good friend and counselor, JIM, says, "A boundary without a consequence is nothing but a bad suggestion that will be crossed over and over and over and over until you start holding firm on those consequences." LYSA: The consequences don't have to be harsh, but it will cost you something. It will be hard for you to get up and walk into another room with your kids. It will be hard if you have to miss part of Thanksgiving because of his behavior. No part of that is fair, and no part of that is fun, but will it start establishing healthier patterns? Maybe not in Fred, but it will definitely start establishing healthy patterns for you