Latest / Scalability School / Pixel Perfect: Is Your Tracking Lying to You?

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Pixel Perfect: Is Your Tracking Lying to You? · Scalability School

• 0:00
  It's a quantitative way for meta to kind of tell you how well, how confidently can
• 0:05
  we match this event, this action on your website to a user on our platform.
• 0:09
  That's, that's the gist of it.
• 0:10
  Um, so, you know, it's, it's what data are we passing back to help
• 0:13
  meta make those matches, which drives optimization, which obviously helps
• 0:17
  your ads performance and efficiency.
• 0:20
  One client referred to it as a mysterious force, which is, I think is
• 0:22
  about as specific as we can be.
• 0:24
  Meta has not produced any like documentation or comms on this, but you
• 0:29
  know, once we saw it across.
• 0:30
  Dozens and dozens of accounts, you're like, okay, this isn't just a one-off.
• 0:33
  This is a, this is a trend.
• 0:35
  This is a thing where spend dropping conversion rate, dropping CPA, like
• 0:39
  going out, like negative impact on the ad account, maybe introducing some
• 0:43
  upper funnel events just will sort of tweak and shock the system a little bit
• 0:46
  and go after a different pool and sort of cohort of users on the platform
• 0:51
  and bring them in.
• 0:52
  So I think like optimizing for that stuff is definitely worth a test, like
• 0:56
  optimizing for upper funnel events.
• 0:57
  So I think in that same light, if you want to optimize for a quiz completion,
• 1:01
  that's pretty high intent.
• 1:09
  And now let's take a listen to the scalability school podcast.
• 1:13
  Welcome to another episode of the scalability school podcast.
• 1:16
  Um, pixel perfect with Brett Fish from tag hero Brett.
• 1:22
  So glad to have you on the show.
• 1:23
  Honestly, friend of the pod, um, friend in life, actually, Brett's been on, uh,
• 1:30
  one of my family vacations this year already with my, with me and got
• 1:34
  another one coming to December.
• 1:35
  So, you know, that's, you know, we, we have really gone full circle here.
• 1:40
  Um, but we're excited to have you on you and Zach.
• 1:43
  We're talking about a whole bunch of stuff with pixel and Zach, you want to
• 1:47
  give the backstory about why you wanted to have Brett on?
• 1:49
  Yeah.
• 1:50
  I mean, uh, TLDR is we were concerned, um, about some just like auditing
• 1:57
  our pixel, essentially we were starting to have some issues with performance
• 2:00
  and we were trying to back into, if it could, if it could be any errors
• 2:03
  that we were firing on, on the pixel.
• 2:05
  And then we, uh, we hired Brett, Brett and his company and they came in and.
• 2:10
  Did a bunch of cool shit and I didn't understand it.
• 2:13
  So it was like, Hey, Brett, can we, uh, have a conversation so you can
• 2:16
  explain this to me like I'm five.
• 2:18
  And that conversation was incredible.
• 2:20
  And I was like, Hey, you have to come on the podcast and explain all the cool
• 2:23
  things, Cappy, EMQ, all these acronyms that get thrown out there that I didn't
• 2:29
  know what they were, uh, but wanted to, wanted to know more about them.
• 2:33
  So that's what the episode is going to be about today.
• 2:35
  I was trying to think about like what the,
• 2:38
  what the, what it compares this to in real
• 2:40
  life, because I feel like a pixel is not, you know, the pixel and pixel setups is
• 2:44
  like, you don't realize outside of the basics, really, you know, it's important
• 2:47
  to have a pixel set up, but you don't realize how, how bad it is until it breaks.
• 2:51
  It's kind of like insurance.
• 2:52
  That's why I came up with, I don't know if it's a great comparison, but it's like.
• 2:55
  Shit, it broke.
• 2:57
  I don't have this thing and I don't know what to do to fix it.
• 3:00
  Um, and, uh, yeah, no, I'm excited to dig into this.
• 3:02
  So Brett's gonna, Brett's gonna tell us why
• 3:04
  it's important, uh, how to fix it before it breaks.
• 3:06
  This episode is brought to you by our friends over at Northbeam, the marketing
• 3:09
  attribution platform that a lot of us at listen to scalability school and the
• 3:13
  host of scalability school, you know, we swear by and use Northbeam rolled out
• 3:16
  something brand new that I think is pretty awesome.
• 3:18
  It's a real unlock, I think called clicks plus deterministic views.
• 3:21
  And it's the first ever deterministic view through attribution model.
• 3:26
  I mean, let's be honest, right?
• 3:27
  One day click had us flying a little bit blind, you know, the drill, right?
• 3:30
  Your Tik TOK or your CTV campaigns are building awareness, clearly driving site
• 3:34
  traffic and lifting sales across channels,
• 3:37
  but your attribution dashboard still gives
• 3:38
  all the credit to Google search.
• 3:39
  Cause it was last click.
• 3:41
  It's like tracking who made the final shot in the basketball game, but ignoring
• 3:43
  the five assists, right?
• 3:44
  That got the ball there.
• 3:45
  So clicks plus deterministic views flips that it ties actual impressions, not
• 3:49
  guesses, but verified impressions to real conversions.
• 3:53
  We're talking direct integrations with meta, Tik TOK, snap, Pinterest, and even
• 3:56
  CTV, and Northbeam uses hard identifiers like order IDs and hashed emails to prove
• 4:01
  that someone saw the ad didn't click, but later bought.
• 4:05
  That means you can finally measure the real impact of upper funnel campaigns.
• 4:08
  And the results are pretty nuts.
• 4:10
  One brand saw 283% more attributed conversions on Tik TOK.
• 4:14
  Another got 175% more attributed revenue than they knew even existed.
• 4:17
  And you know, another one drove 59% row as lift on Pinterest.
• 4:23
  So if you're tired of under budgeting awareness, because attribution can't keep
• 4:26
  up, this is your chance to see the real journey in the full journey.
• 4:29
  So Northbeam click plus deterministic views is live now head over to
• 4:33
  Northbeam.io forward slash demo to book a walkthrough and tell them we at
• 4:38
  scalability school.
• 4:40
  So, I mean, first of all, Brett, anybody you want to flame, uh, and talk about on
• 4:45
  the internet, I'm just kidding.
• 4:46
  Who do you hate?
• 4:48
  Who do you, who, who do we hate this week?
• 4:50
  Um, who's driving the spunkers?
• 4:51
  I don't think I can lead in with that.
• 4:53
  You might have to warm up warm up.
• 4:55
  That's just, that's just, uh, that's just to get everybody laughing.
• 4:58
  We're, we're good.
• 4:59
  We're, we're all friendly people here.
• 5:01
  Uh, it's all love.
• 5:02
  Um, Brett, uh, do you want to tell everybody about like how you got
• 5:05
  into this first, like briefly?
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  Like, how did you start doing tracking so
• 5:10
  that, and like, what is it that you do now?
• 5:12
  Exactly.
• 5:13
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 5:14
  Uh, well first, uh, pleasure and a privilege to be on with you guys.
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  Um, highly respect all three of you on the work side and then getting to know you
• 5:21
  all, you know, in real life as people too, it's been awesome.
• 5:24
  So it's a privilege to join you.
• 5:26
  Um, yeah, so it's, it's totally accidentally is how I'm like here with
• 5:31
  Tag Hero, uh, my background was all in traditional marketing.
• 5:35
  So like, I'm, I date myself.
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  I'm old, like my, my original work in marketing was like old school media
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  buying print, radio, TV, billboards, all that stuff.
• 5:44
  And then my career are kind of coincided with the emergence of digital.
• 5:48
  So I started buying digital banner ads and stuff like that and saw the
• 5:51
  tracking and the potential of like, you know, a billboard, you put up a phone
• 5:54
  number and you hope someone calls it with the banner ads, we could see clicks.
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  And every, I'm like, this is amazing.
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  Had the opportunity with some early job roles to spend money and work heavily
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  with early Facebook ads when they were right column classified ads,
• 6:09
  power editor era and days.
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  Um, and so I got to experiment with a lot of work on it.
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  And after I'd done that career stops a couple of times, I like, I know what I'm
• 6:18
  doing here, I'm pretty good at this and, and split off to do my own thing,
• 6:22
  start my own paid social agency.
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  I was like eight or nine years ago.
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  Um, and just a couple of years into the agency though, we were constantly having
• 6:30
  issues with the stuff we're about to talk about, like technical tracking,
• 6:34
  pixels, backend stuff, and you know, now what, like seven years ago, six years ago,
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  previous era in digital marketing, right?
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  Even less available in resources than there are now.
• 6:45
  And so I got sick of it.
• 6:46
  And so I'm like, okay, we're figuring this out.
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  This is not going to be a pain point anymore.
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  Cause it was hindering our ability to serve our clients.
• 6:51
  And that was the main thing.
• 6:53
  And, um, did some networking, brought some people in from outside that have like
• 6:57
  dev backgrounds and stuff like that and kind of built it into a core competency
• 7:01
  of our agency and then very sort of, uh, timing wise coincidentally, right around
• 7:06
  the same time we got pulled into a program with meta called their technical
• 7:09
  partners program.
• 7:10
  So we were a third party, um, trained vetted and paid by meta to help their
• 7:16
  advertisers with all the tracking stuff on the backend.
• 7:19
  Cappy really wasn't a thing back then at that time, but pixel catalog feeds,
• 7:23
  all that kind of good stuff.
• 7:24
  So we did that for about four or five years.
• 7:26
  And when meta kind of quickly and unceremoniously ended that program, we
• 7:30
  had a lot of people coming to us like, do I have to run ads with you to have
• 7:34
  you fix my tracking?
• 7:35
  And it was like, it was so awkward.
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  It was like a sub bullet point of our agency.
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  And that's when I decided to spin it off and do its own thing as tag hero.
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  And that was almost three years ago.
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  Uh, so, and then, you know, it's taken off since then and there's
• 7:47
  clearly been a need for it.
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  So now I'm fully committed and a hundred percent of my time is on the tag
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  hero side, helping people.
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  So, um, when we talk about all this stuff, like pixels, server side event tracking,
• 7:59
  all the backend conversion tracking for platforms like meta and Google and
• 8:03
  Tik TOK and Snapchat and Pinterest and all
• 8:06
  the others, heavy Google tag manager stuff.
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  Um, you know, all the backend technical conversion tracking stuff that drives
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  these platforms, that's our expertise and what we can help, uh, brands and
• 8:17
  advertisers and agencies with.
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  Yeah.
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  And you're the technical partner, chief technical partner of the
• 8:22
  Foxville founders membership.
• 8:23
  And they've helped literally every member probably with an issue because they
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  don't stop these fricking issues.
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  Um, so constant.
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  Yeah.
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  It's like, yeah, Brad made a great point.
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  Like no one cares about tracking really until it breaks.
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  It's one of those kinds of like given things that you expect to work until it
• 8:44
  breaks, but when it breaks, what you realize, and, and I've always been adamant
• 8:48
  about this and why I went full in on tiger was it's such a foundational part
• 8:53
  of success on these platforms that has to be in place.
• 8:56
  You can produce the most banger creative that's ever been produced.
• 9:00
  And if the platform's not getting the right signal off of that,
• 9:04
  it's not doing it justice.
• 9:06
  Um, so creative and CRO and offers and all super important to success.
• 9:11
  But at the end of the day, these are all algorithms, right?
• 9:13
  Good data in good output, garbage in garbage out.
• 9:17
  So the data and the signals are really critical to success.
• 9:21
  Um, but people don't really care until it breaks and something goes sideways.
• 9:24
  And then that's when we usually come in.
• 9:26
  We'll talk a little bit later about how we're trying to get ahead of that.
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  Brad talked about insurance, but, um, yeah, we, we help them sort that stuff
• 9:32
  out when it's not working like they expect.
• 9:34
  Yep.
• 9:34
  So let's go ahead and just jump right in, right?
• 9:37
  Like out of the gates, actually, Brad, you had a story you wanted to talk about.
• 9:41
  Yeah, I have two things.
• 9:42
  Um, Brett mentioned things breaking in literally the last seven days on meta
• 9:45
  has been like literally the entire platform just keeps having perpetual
• 9:49
  disruptions, I think ad spend for all of our clients stop for like two hours or
• 9:52
  like an hour, at least in the middle of the day today.
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  So fun, fun timing on things breaking completely unrelated to the
• 9:57
  pixel or the pixel things out of our control.
• 10:00
  Um, I just want to share something I saw this weekend, uh, or actually heard
• 10:03
  from a friend is like somebody outside the industry.
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  And so that makes it even more compelling.
• 10:07
  My ears start to perk up when I hear people like interacting with brands in real
• 10:12
  life, because I spend all time, all my time talking to, uh, you, you two, you
• 10:17
  two morons in particular, volunteering, of course.
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  And so I was like, okay, you're perpetually in the weeds.
• 10:23
  You don't really, you don't really take a step back and zoom out and like, see
• 10:27
  how people interact with stuff.
• 10:28
  Long story short, sitting next to my friend that I've known for since, since, um,
• 10:32
  elementary school at a wedding and he starts telling me about his sunglasses
• 10:35
  and whatever it's like a normal conversation about some glasses.
• 10:37
  He's like, yeah, you know, I just lose them all the time.
• 10:39
  So, but I'm really, I have a, I have a pair from shady raise and I really like
• 10:41
  them, um, and I have their, I'm in their replacement program.
• 10:44
  So I just like, they just replaced them for me for free.
• 10:46
  It's like they're $75 sunglasses and they replace them for free.
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  And I was like, Oh, that's cool.
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  Like completely for free.
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  And he's like, well, no, I pay shipping.
• 10:54
  And I was like, okay, how much, how much do you pay shipping?
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  He's like, Oh, like 15 bucks.
• 10:59
  But like they're $75 on glass.
• 11:00
  They're like, okay, these, these, these sunglasses probably cost them $2 to make.
• 11:05
  They probably cost like $7 in shipping.
• 11:07
  And most of that's like, because they have to go into a box, they don't get crushed
• 11:09
  in the mail because they weigh nothing.
• 11:11
  Um, they're making margin on the replacement program and they're, but like
• 11:15
  the way that he worded it to me was he was so gassed up.
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  He's like, I get my sunglasses replaced for free.
• 11:20
  I don't have to remember it.
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  I don't feel bad about this.
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  It's like his perception of their replacement program was I get free sunglasses.
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  My perception is they're making money.
• 11:29
  It's like everybody loses their sunglasses.
• 11:31
  It's incredible.
• 11:32
  I like, I like that the first time you left your house since we've
• 11:34
  started this podcast, you have a story.
• 11:37
  Yeah.
• 11:37
  Oh yeah.
• 11:37
  Look, I'm going to Vegas this weekend for another wedding.
• 11:40
  So who else might not interrogate about their D to C shopping experiences?
• 11:44
  So yeah, I thought that was really fascinating.
• 11:46
  That's that's fascinating.
• 11:47
  It's good marketing.
• 11:48
  So, uh, Brett, like let's just jump in and talk about, um, what
• 11:54
  does the essential setup look like Shopify default?
• 11:57
  Does it cover meta?
• 11:59
  Okay.
• 12:01
  Or does it cover like what, what are the issues with just a default setup?
• 12:06
  Yeah.
• 12:06
  Um, no issues with the default setup is I think the main thing.
• 12:11
  Um, I remember a while back there was kind of this big wave of concerns
• 12:15
  and questions about Shopify's app and the tracking and to be fair, the
• 12:20
  apps, you know, it's had its evolution and
• 12:22
  changes it was originally owned by Shopify.
• 12:24
  I think now it's owned by meta or vice versa.
• 12:26
  Like it actually changed hands of like who is owning and maintaining it.
• 12:30
  But, but the long story short is.
• 12:32
  Look, if, if you're the majority, I'd probably guess of Shopify brands
• 12:36
  and stores out there and you know, you do decent business, but nothing crazy.
• 12:41
  I think the app works great.
• 12:43
  You get pixel and conversion API server side tracking out of it.
• 12:47
  It passes back all the parameters to match
• 12:49
  up with your catalogs and all that stuff.
• 12:51
  So from like a data standpoint, it's pretty solid.
• 12:54
  Um, does it squeeze every last single drop out of a potential data connection?
• 13:00
  No, but, but, but it's a free, very quick and easy to set up app.
• 13:04
  So I think for a lot, we, you know, we, we always recommend to go that route
• 13:09
  wherever possible and wherever it makes sense.
• 13:11
  Um, you know, one of the things with it is it's designed for out of the box, right?
• 13:15
  So if you want to do anything custom outside of the typical e-commerce funnel
• 13:19
  and flow of page view, view content, add to cart purchase, all that stuff.
• 13:23
  If you want to do something custom, it's not going to do that.
• 13:25
  It's kind of just intended for out of the box e-commerce, but it does that well.
• 13:29
  So is it perfect?
• 13:31
  No, it's not perfect, but I don't think you're, you know, at a major disadvantage
• 13:35
  or it's detrimental if you're using it.
• 13:37
  I think it works just fine for a lot of brands and takes, takes a lot of
• 13:41
  the guesswork out of it, because anytime you go outside of something, you
• 13:44
  start doing custom things, there's more things that can to be considered.
• 13:48
  But, uh, no, I think it's pretty solid.
• 13:51
  Um, and for a lot of stores, it's, it's, it's totally adequate.
• 13:54
  If you're at a size and a scale with traffic and volume and revenue and
• 13:58
  everything, where a small incremental lift in your overall kind of data would
• 14:03
  offset the cost of putting that all into maintaining it, sure.
• 14:07
  Explore.
• 14:08
  There are other solutions that are a little more advanced, but
• 14:10
  like I'd say for the average store and advertiser, it does a really good job.
• 14:16
  I want to come back to what you're saying for like, when you want to squeeze
• 14:19
  things a little bit more and like when that starts to make sense.
• 14:22
  Uh, but coming back up one step, like, okay, so the Shopify setup, I think
• 14:25
  most people listening to this will understand, but just for the sake of
• 14:28
  making sure we, we, we get everybody that's literally, you go into Shopify,
• 14:33
  you go into sales channels, you install meta and you just like go through the
• 14:35
  setup process, you select max data sharing or whatever your settings need to
• 14:38
  be and that, that sets up the pixel on the front end, um, saying boards that
• 14:43
  might not fully understand front end and then back end is conversion API.
• 14:47
  Um, is that fair?
• 14:48
  Correct.
• 14:48
  Yeah.
• 14:48
  It's tight.
• 14:49
  It's called the Facebook and Instagram Shopify sales channel app still, but yeah,
• 14:54
  you go in and in the settings, there's a section for data sharing and you can
• 14:58
  connect your business manager and your dataset or pixel ID and everything.
• 15:02
  And, um, you can, I recommend setting it to maximum.
• 15:05
  There's a couple levels set it to maximum data sharing.
• 15:08
  And that'll handle, um, to your point pixel, it'll handle server side events.
• 15:13
  And one of the things that we can dive into layer, but one of the really
• 15:17
  important things when you have pixel and server side is that they
• 15:19
  deduplicate properly because I didn't an ideal setup from meta standpoint.
• 15:24
  And we were talking about like, what is an ideal setup, Sam set up look like.
• 15:28
  You're supposed to send a pixel event, which is a front side event and a server
• 15:32
  side event for every event.
• 15:34
  So if I go to Zach store and I go through and I make a purchase that purchase
• 15:39
  event for me should send a pixel and a server side event, but they should
• 15:43
  both be carrying a unique identifier called an event ID to deduplicate.
• 15:46
  So it doesn't count as two purchases.
• 15:48
  Cause I only made one purchase.
• 15:50
  That's the best practice set up to ensure you're capturing that event.
• 15:54
  Um, but if you don't deduplicate them, then you, then you have over counting
• 15:58
  and over reporting and all sorts of issues.
• 16:00
  So, um, the app handles all of that for you, which is why I think it's,
• 16:03
  it's a really good option.
• 16:04
  So it'll automatically take care of all that, but correct.
• 16:07
  Yeah, Brad, you, you set it up, connect it and you're off to the races.
• 16:10
  You really don't.
• 16:11
  Um, actually, Andrew, there was a founder's member the other day who was
• 16:14
  like rebooting their store and we went through and set it up and like, I think
• 16:17
  it was like a minute and a half on a call.
• 16:19
  And he's just like, Oh, like that was it.
• 16:21
  I was like, that's it buddy.
• 16:22
  You're all set.
• 16:23
  So, um, it's really straightforward overall, but yeah, it works well.
• 16:27
  Nice.
• 16:28
  Cool.
• 16:28
  So that, that covers it for the vast majority of brands, but there's
• 16:32
  obviously people, um, like Zach who want to crank it up a couple of notches.
• 16:37
  So like, what is there like a threshold for when it starts to make it like, okay.
• 16:40
  So I'm sure there's a couple of ways to look at it, like thresholds and
• 16:43
  revenue traffic or however you want to define it.
• 16:45
  And then there's those like unique scenarios where you're like health and
• 16:48
  wellness, which I'm sure we'll come back to, or you're doing something custom,
• 16:51
  like maybe some like quiz stuff or, you know, other stuff that we could, I'm
• 16:54
  sure we can, we can talk about that too.
• 16:55
  But, um, any way that you like think about, okay, we need to maybe go a little
• 16:59
  bit deeper than this, like, how are you, how are you looking at it?
• 17:01
  And how are you advising folks on when to do it?
• 17:04
  Yeah.
• 17:04
  But, you know, there's, there's not really a line and actually Zach would probably
• 17:08
  be more equipped to speak to that than I would be, but there's not really a line
• 17:12
  as I see it, it's just, if you get to a point where you're like, you know, we're
• 17:16
  at a certain level of size and scale, we want to make sure our data is, you know,
• 17:20
  cause some of these tools that aren't the app, you know, the app is designed
• 17:23
  to do exactly what it does.
• 17:25
  Um, some of these solutions out there, um,
• 17:27
  L of R blot out edge tag, all like there's
• 17:30
  other things because that's not pure tracking.
• 17:33
  I mean, it includes tracking, but there's other things that software can do.
• 17:37
  It can do like user fingerprinting and session stitching and some other things.
• 17:41
  And, and what I always tell people is.
• 17:44
  Will you get more purchase events?
• 17:46
  Not necessarily.
• 17:46
  That's not what it is.
• 17:47
  It's like you're capturing more purchases, but like you might have more user data
• 17:51
  on those upper funnel events that tells the platform, you know, for prospecting
• 17:55
  campaigns and things like that, who's hitting your website more effectively
• 17:58
  and helps it optimize.
• 18:00
  Like that's what I mean when I say incremental, it's not, you're not
• 18:02
  necessarily going to capture and report more revenue, more purchases and things
• 18:06
  like that, those events should still fire and be captured in a more regular setup.
• 18:10
  But those, those tools can add additional things from a SaaS standpoint.
• 18:15
  They can enrich your data and squeeze a little more out of it.
• 18:18
  Um, I always consider that somewhat incremental.
• 18:21
  So it really comes down to me to what is the cost of that platform cost?
• 18:26
  Um, with some of them, what's the ongoing like upkeep?
• 18:28
  Like we, I can tell you, we audit a lot of tracking of.
• 18:33
  We signed up for this tool and we don't use it anymore.
• 18:35
  And we're not sure what the aftermath looks like.
• 18:38
  Like we get a lot of that.
• 18:39
  So some of them can be technical and require some upkeep.
• 18:42
  That's more than some brands are equipped or willing to do.
• 18:46
  So you have to kind of consider all that.
• 18:47
  But if, if, if that all makes sense and lines up for what it gives you, then,
• 18:52
  then I think it's could be worth it to try.
• 18:54
  Um, but I don't have like a hard, like at this dollar of revenue or at this
• 18:59
  amount of traffic or events, does it make sense?
• 19:02
  There's no like, like hard line on that.
• 19:04
  It's just kind of, I think when it starts to make sense for
• 19:07
  you as a brand to look at it.
• 19:09
  Yeah.
• 19:09
  I mean, the way that I justified is like, if you're spending a few
• 19:12
  hundred thousand dollars a month on ads, probably should take a look at this.
• 19:16
  Right.
• 19:16
  And make sure everything's dialed in.
• 19:18
  Right.
• 19:18
  I think that that's just like the baseline thought on my end.
• 19:23
  Oh, yeah.
• 19:25
  I mean, I think let's, let's get into like
• 19:27
  some of the other things that you can do.
• 19:30
  Right.
• 19:30
  So I remember like one of the, one of the questions that we had for you,
• 19:34
  Brett was, is there a way for us to see and run pixel events for a new customer
• 19:40
  purchase versus returning customer purchase?
• 19:41
  Cause maybe we want to test optimizing off of that to see if we can
• 19:44
  get focus on new customers, right?
• 19:46
  Is there, is there some level of event data or something that's happening on
• 19:51
  the backend that might be able to actually show better performance if we
• 19:54
  just opt to optimize off of new purchase?
• 19:56
  Like tell us more about the other things that we can start to do with like
• 19:59
  going a step deeper than just the standard setup.
• 20:02
  Just to at the high level.
• 20:04
  Yes.
• 20:04
  You can definitely capture events, um, either through like a platform,
• 20:08
  like an L a bar or a blot out Shopify actually has that as part of their core
• 20:12
  web API.
• 20:13
  So even if we do something with like Google tag manager, we can still
• 20:16
  determine was this event from a new customer that's never bought from you
• 20:21
  before, or is it not a new customer?
• 20:23
  Right now you're returning customer and you can fire like a custom meta event.
• 20:27
  For example, um, you could even do a custom Google conversion if you wanted,
• 20:30
  but, um, you know, you can fire those respectively where you say, this is a
• 20:35
  new customer purchase versus this is a returning customer purchase.
• 20:38
  And then you could choose to optimize for a new customer.
• 20:41
  That's the technical side.
• 20:42
  My opinion and soapbox on it is I don't actually know how useful that is.
• 20:47
  I'm always at like a results talk, right?
• 20:49
  So if it works and it works and we can repeat that like any other kind of
• 20:53
  experiment, like great, like what does my opinion matter it works, right?
• 20:56
  But my thing with that has always been there's no metric in metasys.
• 21:01
  And I think we talked a little bit about this Jack, Zach.
• 21:03
  And you mentioned something that you had talked about on a call as like alternate
• 21:06
  reasoning that I think would be worth like going through, but from the technical
• 21:09
  side, there isn't a metric in meta system
• 21:12
  that says it's new customer that you like.
• 21:15
  There's no recognition and metaside like, Oh, this is a new customer.
• 21:18
  Um, so when you're passing a new customer event, you're really just passing a
• 21:22
  subset of your overall purchase event.
• 21:25
  And is meta going to be able to optimize toward that group of users as a new
• 21:29
  customer and go find other people who have not bought from you before?
• 21:34
  Not necessarily.
• 21:35
  So I know some people that have tried optimizing for it and it worked for a
• 21:39
  little stretch and then maybe kind of, you know, petered off over time.
• 21:43
  Um, I've never been super sold on the technical backend of it, but it's
• 21:46
  definitely possible and so we try and it's worth testing.
• 21:50
  For sure.
• 21:50
  We just wanted to try it.
• 21:52
  Right.
• 21:52
  Similar thought.
• 21:52
  It was like, let's just see what happens.
• 21:54
  No bump in performance.
• 21:56
  So like, I don't think, and again, that's just one dataset to use is just us, but
• 22:00
  same, but for us, by the way.
• 22:02
  Okay.
• 22:02
  Got it.
• 22:02
  Yeah.
• 22:03
  I mean, this last week, we tried it.
• 22:05
  Didn't do anything.
• 22:07
  I think optimize enough of the main standard purchase event is probably
• 22:10
  the way to go 99% of the time.
• 22:12
  Right.
• 22:12
  So, um, yeah, I'm glad that you called that out though.
• 22:16
  Yeah, that and exclusions, right?
• 22:18
  I mean, using as robust of exclusions as you can in your ads, I think is probably
• 22:21
  a better overall approach than just trying to optimize toward an audience of
• 22:25
  people who it's their first time buying from you.
• 22:28
  Um, and, and I could be wrong about that, right?
• 22:30
  Meta could have something in their infinite data point structure that says
• 22:34
  like this person interacted with this store for the first time or whatever, but
• 22:39
  we haven't really seen any proof or evidence of that.
• 22:42
  Um, so it's all kind of speculation.
• 22:43
  Honestly, I think it's been a little bit more almost marketing fodder for like data
• 22:47
  tools to say, Oh, we can do this.
• 22:49
  Then it is like real actual practical execution and like results off of that.
• 22:55
  But, um, it's like, I've heard some for some periods it's worked.
• 22:58
  So it's definitely worth testing and trying if you want to.
• 23:01
  And it's definitely something that's available, especially if you're on like
• 23:03
  Shopify, um, this is a, this is an ask for a house to sponsor the next, uh, I
• 23:10
  don't know, handful of podcasts and give me house for free so I can technically
• 23:14
  trial that, you know, trial this out and run it by, uh, you know, the book.
• 23:18
  But outside of that, yeah, we tried it ourselves.
• 23:21
  No difference.
• 23:22
  Um, should we get into EMQ?
• 23:25
  Um, yeah.
• 23:26
  So the one I would love to talk about EMQ and just like really briefly, can I
• 23:30
  actually let's talk about Cappy first.
• 23:32
  If you don't mind, um, you have the default install and just so I
• 23:36
  understand what Cappy does.
• 23:38
  Cappy goes on your site and if someone is filling out a form or puts in their
• 23:45
  email to capture it, it tags that together.
• 23:49
  Is that what Cappy is part of what Cappy is?
• 23:52
  What is Cappy?
• 23:53
  No, it was a good try.
• 23:54
  It was a good try Foxwell, but, um, no, so, so what Cappy is, is it's an
• 23:59
  alternate route to send your data to meta.
• 24:02
  Then the pixel, the pixel we all know and love that's been around forever.
• 24:05
  So it's an alternate route.
• 24:07
  Um, the pixel is JavaScript.
• 24:09
  So it's code that lives on your website and it shoots data
• 24:12
  directly back to meta from there.
• 24:14
  The issue with that is it can be disrupted and blocked by all sorts of things.
• 24:18
  So like browser load errors, slow internet connections, ad blockers,
• 24:22
  JavaScript blockers, there's a myriad of things that can disrupt that
• 24:26
  pixel sending that signal back.
• 24:27
  So Cappy stands for conversion API.
• 24:30
  And it's, it's met as terminology for server side tracking, but it's essentially
• 24:34
  a, instead of sending it via JavaScript via the pixel to meta, we're actually
• 24:39
  going to capture that on our own servers.
• 24:42
  And then our servers are going to connect to meta servers directly with
• 24:46
  an API and pass them that data.
• 24:48
  Right.
• 24:49
  And it's capturing, it's capturing the things that they're
• 24:51
  doing though on the site.
• 24:53
  The same events.
• 24:54
  It's all the same data and all of the same events that the pixel sends.
• 24:57
  Correct.
• 24:57
  So that's what I meant.
• 24:58
  Like it's capturing action, not related to the pixel.
• 25:01
  I didn't say that properly, but it's like, if they put in their email or
• 25:04
  they start filling out a form or they click add to cart, like it's capturing
• 25:09
  all that information just independently of the pixel.
• 25:12
  Yeah.
• 25:12
  It's same information, but sending it to meta different that's less likely to get
• 25:18
  disrupted.
• 25:19
  Okay.
• 25:20
  I was thinking about if I was going to ask this on the podcast, because it
• 25:22
  risking looking stupid, but I don't fucking care.
• 25:25
  So I'm stupid.
• 25:26
  So I just wanted to make sure like that's what I thought.
• 25:29
  And I want, so that's what Cappy is.
• 25:31
  Is there anything that people can do to help improve the Cappy experience?
• 25:37
  Uh, I think one main sort of distinction to make up front is, is that Cappy is like
• 25:42
  server side events when it comes to emails and stuff like that, that's EMQ.
• 25:45
  And that's what Zach mentioned that we can definitely dive into in more depth in a
• 25:49
  minute.
• 25:49
  Um, when it comes to Cappy, really, you just want to make sure you have it
• 25:53
  implemented.
• 25:54
  So the numbers kind of move, but metas official documentation has always been
• 25:59
  you get somewhere between eight to 13% more events by having Cappy in place
• 26:06
  alongside your pixel in a redundant setup than just pixel alone.
• 26:10
  So Cappy is really valuable in that sense of you would have some signal loss if you
• 26:14
  just were using the pixel.
• 26:16
  Whereas if you have Cappy, I mean, let's say ballpark nine or 10%, that can be a
• 26:21
  huge swing as far as like revenue and purchase of activity reported and things
• 26:26
  like that.
• 26:27
  Um, in regard to make making it like, I guess, as effective as possible, you just
• 26:31
  want to make sure it's a, it's a strong, robust Cappy setup.
• 26:35
  It's a true redundant setup.
• 26:36
  So like the Shopify app would take care of that for you.
• 26:39
  If you're using Google tag manager or something like that, just making sure you
• 26:42
  have a Cappy implementation in place alongside your pixel that captures all
• 26:46
  the same events, you should be in good place.
• 26:49
  It's it copies really a backstop to get any of those events that the pixel loses
• 26:53
  or drops or their signal disruption.
• 26:55
  How would someone know?
• 26:57
  How would they know if the pixel, if like the Cappy setup isn't good?
• 27:02
  So, so let's say I have the default installed and I'm like, I feel like I'm
• 27:06
  not doing good here and then I'm like, see an ad for, you know, one of these
• 27:10
  tracking things I'm like, should I sign up with it flat out or whatever?
• 27:13
  Like, can I just, where do I look to solve this on my own?
• 27:16
  Yep.
• 27:16
  So the main, the main place you'd want to go where we spend most of our time is in
• 27:20
  the meta events manager.
• 27:22
  So if you go into meta business manager, um, the events manager tool in section
• 27:26
  will show you all the events that are coming into your site.
• 27:30
  And in that overview on that dashboard, there's a column that says connection
• 27:33
  method, and if it says multiple, that means you're getting events via both
• 27:37
  pixel and Cappy, and you can actually expand any of the individual events.
• 27:41
  And there's a chart, there's a graph that's actually really useful.
• 27:44
  And it shows you, here's the server events that are coming in.
• 27:47
  Here's the pixel events that are coming in
• 27:49
  and they should be pretty tightly correlated.
• 27:51
  So if that all is there and is in place, um, you're probably in, in good shape.
• 27:56
  I mean, shameless plug.
• 27:57
  If you're unsure how to check that we offer that as we do meta tracking audits
• 28:01
  to make sure all that stuff's in place and, and dialed in, but, um, yeah, that's
• 28:06
  where you'd want to look to see if you see that multiple, like it's coming in
• 28:10
  from multiple channels and you look at that graph and you're getting server and
• 28:13
  pixel events pretty consistently, you're probably in good shape.
• 28:16
  So meta events manager would be where you want to take a look at that.
• 28:19
  I have a pull up right now.
• 28:20
  I'm looking at it.
• 28:21
  Does automatic website matching impact,
• 28:23
  um, like conversion API or EMQ or not really?
• 28:27
  No.
• 28:28
  So, so EMQ, when we look at it and meta events manager is actually, that's all from
• 28:32
  copy.
• 28:33
  So if you don't have a copy connection, that tab won't even show in events manager.
• 28:37
  Um, automatic advanced matching, if we distill it down is really just what
• 28:41
  you're telling the pixel, it's a pixel based tool is any page that the pixels
• 28:46
  installed on that you're saying, go ahead and scan that page in that code.
• 28:50
  And if you see things that are email addresses, phone numbers, names, named
• 28:55
  fields, go ahead and pass that data back with the pixel for match purposes.
• 28:59
  So you're just giving it some automated leash to identify that information and
• 29:03
  send it back and that does help match rates, which we can dive into more, but
• 29:07
  that's really like how the platform optimizes.
• 29:10
  So if I go on, um, Zach store and I make a purchase meta needs to match that action
• 29:16
  up that purchase on his site up with a user on their platform.
• 29:19
  So they need to connect that back.
• 29:21
  And then once they know I'm a user on their platform, then they're like, okay,
• 29:23
  let's go find other Brett fishes who with all of our data points has similar
• 29:28
  interests and we think would also be a prospective customer.
• 29:31
  That's how the meta optimization engine works for ads.
• 29:34
  So it's really important that you pass as much of that, that match data back as
• 29:39
  possible to help the platform do that and more efficiently optimize your ads.
• 29:44
  So it's a pixel based thing.
• 29:45
  The automatic advanced matching, but we highly recommend having it on and having
• 29:49
  any of the match keys on, unless you have like a strong business reason.
• 29:53
  Some of them aren't as important, like gender date of birth, probably not as
• 29:56
  important, but like name and email and external IDs and things like that are
• 30:00
  really good to pass if you can.
• 30:02
  Yeah.
• 30:02
  I mean, that's like one of the first things that we check in audits just as
• 30:05
  like to make sure it's turned on and almost always not all of this turned on.
• 30:08
  So maybe that's like a low hanging fruit thing that people can do.
• 30:10
  The other thing I would tell anybody, I call it the silent killer and that's
• 30:14
  probably a little dramatic, but I can, I can't tell you how many audits
• 30:17
  we find issues with this.
• 30:19
  There's a section in the settings tab of events manager.
• 30:21
  If you scroll down that says event set up tool and event set up tool is
• 30:26
  a codeless tool that meta offers.
• 30:28
  So if your pixel is installed on a site and you really need to get an event
• 30:32
  tracking on like a button click or a link click, but you don't have access
• 30:34
  to the code and you can't add events and stuff, you can use this event set up
• 30:39
  tool, which is a codeless tool for meta to do that.
• 30:41
  The problem is, is what we see with so many advertisers is at some point in the
• 30:45
  past, too many cooks in the kitchen, summer marketing intern, whatever, has
• 30:49
  set up events via the event set up tool.
• 30:51
  And they have a normal regular e-commerce tracking set up in place.
• 30:56
  So they'll be getting like huge duplication on like add to carts or
• 30:59
  sometimes purchases and things like that.
• 31:01
  And if you look in the site code, even you won't see it, it doesn't exist.
• 31:05
  You can only see it if you're in that event set up tool.
• 31:08
  So that's always something I recommend people check too.
• 31:10
  It's just like, make sure there's no events in there.
• 31:13
  It serves its purpose, but you can't pass back like dollar values and
• 31:16
  skews or anything else.
• 31:17
  It's just a pure like event tracking.
• 31:19
  So, um, that's always one I recommend in the settings too, Brad, that you check
• 31:23
  on audits because it can cause all kinds of problems.
• 31:27
  So probably some intern reading the Foxville digital blog, you know, full
• 31:31
  of a lot of goodies on there, your conversation with Brett about the EMQ
• 31:35
  and about your own EMQ.
• 31:37
  What, what were you trying to solve?
• 31:39
  And then like, what is it?
• 31:42
  And what did you know about it?
• 31:43
  And then what did Brett kind of illuminate for you there?
• 31:45
  So I was curious on.
• 31:49
  Like, I mean, I had the, I had the understanding that event
• 31:52
  match quality, the better it is, the better, you know, better results you get,
• 31:56
  right, the more data you can send back to meta, I would hope that the better
• 31:59
  performance we get out of, out of our ad account, right?
• 32:02
  So simply put, that's all I knew.
• 32:05
  Right.
• 32:06
  What is it actually in, what was my question for Brett was like,
• 32:09
  what do the numbers mean?
• 32:11
  Right?
• 32:11
  Is a nine good, is a seven good?
• 32:13
  I have no idea.
• 32:14
  It's out of 10.
• 32:14
  So like, what are these scores actually mean?
• 32:16
  And what do I need to get worried?
• 32:18
  Right?
• 32:18
  So one of the things that we were running on one of the brands is that we were
• 32:21
  having issues, all sorts of issues with, with our, um, basically pixel tracking.
• 32:27
  We had health and wellness hit us.
• 32:29
  A bunch of stuff started to happen.
• 32:30
  Um, that was all accidental that we got reversed.
• 32:33
  But, um, one of the things I was curious on is like this, this event, event
• 32:36
  match quality, and I was like, okay.
• 32:39
  I see the number went down and it came back up.
• 32:40
  Like, where should this be?
• 32:42
  So that was one of my first questions was like, I don't know what's a good score.
• 32:45
  You know, sometimes you get graded.
• 32:47
  Is it, is a nine good?
• 32:48
  Is that an A or is that actually, you know,
• 32:51
  are we, you know, curving that a little bit?
• 32:54
  Like, I don't know.
• 32:55
  Right.
• 32:55
  So that was the first question was like, what do the numbers actually mean?
• 32:58
  And how good do they need to be?
• 32:59
  Do they need to be 10 out of 10 or can they be lower than that?
• 33:02
  What does that look like?
• 33:02
  So Brett, why don't you like go through that?
• 33:05
  Let's talk to you like the main events that we would see page view, add a cart,
• 33:09
  purchase the sheet checkout, like, how do you think about those?
• 33:12
  What, what did the numbers look like?
• 33:14
  Is there a number that kind of raises a red flag for you or yeah.
• 33:18
  Tell us more about those.
• 33:19
  Yeah.
• 33:20
  So, um, so the first thing is EMQ stands for event match quality.
• 33:24
  So that's, it's important to remember because that's what we were just talking
• 33:27
  about is it's a, it's a quantitative way for meta to kind of tell you how well,
• 33:33
  how confidently can we match this event, this action on your website to a user on
• 33:38
  our platform that's, that's the gist of it.
• 33:41
  Um, so, you know, it's, it's what data are we passing back to help meta make
• 33:44
  those matches, which drives optimization, which obviously helps your ads
• 33:49
  performance and efficiency and all that good stuff.
• 33:51
  Um, it's on a scale out of 10.
• 33:55
  I've never seen a 10 on any event with real data.
• 33:58
  So don't obsess about that to those listening.
• 34:00
  Like I've never seen an actual real 10.
• 34:03
  The other thing I would say before we kind of dive into the details is
• 34:05
  EMQ is a little funny, funky.
• 34:09
  Um, it's weighted.
• 34:10
  It can be gamed.
• 34:12
  There's, there's a lot of elements to it.
• 34:14
  So I think what we can go through is like, what are the important things to focus
• 34:18
  on and to care about and not dwell on like it's not a 10 or it's, or it's this
• 34:22
  score, but more like what we're sending back.
• 34:25
  So, um, it, it, so the first thing is EMQ will vary.
• 34:30
  It's always starts the lowest on like the highest funnel event.
• 34:33
  So when the user hits your website and you get like a page view event, that
• 34:36
  first landing page view, you're going to get the lowest EMQ scores of your range
• 34:41
  there, um, and we see everything there from like a four and a half to like low
• 34:46
  sixes, um, depending on what gets passed back.
• 34:49
  So for what it's worth hollow, I'll just run through my numbers.
• 34:52
  And then we can use this as an example, seven on the dot 7.0 page view,
• 34:58
  which seems high, which is great.
• 35:00
  So I've got a 6.3 pulled up.
• 35:02
  So you're winning.
• 35:03
  And we can dive in in a minute to a little bit of what's like fueling that and why,
• 35:07
  but that's a good score.
• 35:09
  So page view 7.0 view content.
• 35:12
  So to your point, like as you kind of get through the funnel, right?
• 35:16
  To add to cart.
• 35:17
  So page view seven view content, seven one, add to cart 7.2 purchase nine points
• 35:23
  or initiate checkout 8.5 purchase 9.0.
• 35:28
  Um, so just to give an example, live example brand that we're spending, you
• 35:31
  know, seven figures a month on, there's a lot of events going through this.
• 35:34
  So not just a few.
• 35:36
  Um, but yeah, keep going, Brett.
• 35:38
  All right.
• 35:38
  Yeah.
• 35:38
  And the reason, but the re and the reason for that is when, when someone hits your
• 35:42
  website, they haven't given you any information.
• 35:45
  They haven't submitted anything.
• 35:47
  You don't have any of that user match data to send back.
• 35:50
  There are some technical parameters that you can capture like when they first hit.
• 35:54
  So, um, uh, Facebook's Facebook has two parameters and FVP and an FBC, which
• 36:00
  we'll dive in a little more.
• 36:02
  Cause I think the FBC is a really important one and valuable to dive in a
• 36:05
  little more on in a second, but there's those, there's like your IP address.
• 36:09
  There's a bunch of things that you can pass when a user hits before
• 36:12
  they've submitted anything to you.
• 36:14
  That's what's going to fuel that, that page view score.
• 36:17
  Um, also a lot of stores will like, if you have a user logged in, possibly
• 36:21
  that has an account that's logged in, you might have access to their email
• 36:24
  and their phone number or something right away when they hit the site.
• 36:28
  So those things all fuel that page view, EMC score, E and Q score right
• 36:32
  when someone hits, but they haven't made a transaction, you know, they
• 36:35
  haven't submitted like their name or their email or anything like that.
• 36:38
  So we get those technical kind of parameters.
• 36:41
  Shopify also has one.
• 36:43
  There's a parameter called an external ID, which is just like a customer ID.
• 36:46
  Um, Shopify assigns a unique one when the user hits your site and it
• 36:50
  carries through their, their whole session.
• 36:52
  So you can pass all those things when you use your hits before
• 36:54
  they've made a transaction and sent you.
• 36:57
  So that's, that's what fuels those likes.
• 36:59
  Like we see a lot of like fives, low sixes, seven is great.
• 37:02
  You must have some like logged in users.
• 37:05
  There's another thing to mention here is there's, there's some data providers
• 37:09
  that also use like IP geolocation.
• 37:11
  And this gets a little in the weeds, but like they look at your IP address and
• 37:14
  they guess your city, state, and country and all that based on your IP.
• 37:18
  And they pass that information back.
• 37:20
  So sometimes we go in an audit and it's like a page view and we're like,
• 37:23
  we're getting state and country and zip code on a hundred percent of events.
• 37:27
  How's that possible?
• 37:28
  Like we don't know that yet.
• 37:30
  That's usually like IP geolocation.
• 37:32
  And that's what I mean by like, EMC can be gained a little bit.
• 37:35
  So when you see those numbers and for anyone that wants to look,
• 37:39
  if you want to look at what your EM actually makes up your EMQ score,
• 37:43
  the main overall scores will be in your events manager overview tab.
• 37:46
  But if you expand on any of the events and go into the event details,
• 37:50
  there's a little sub tab called event quality.
• 37:52
  And you can see like the rate of all these things being captured.
• 37:56
  Um, that's just that they're being captured.
• 37:59
  It's not saying they're unique or authentic value.
• 38:01
  So I could put Brett Fish as the first and last name on every event on a site.
• 38:06
  And it would say I'm capturing first and last name a hundred percent of the time.
• 38:09
  Although that's not valuable to the platform, right?
• 38:11
  So it can be gained a little bit, but, but that's what's fueling
• 38:15
  those like upper funnel EMQ scores.
• 38:18
  Um, the more data to exact original point, of course, the more data you send the
• 38:21
  better, as long as it's actual real authentic relevant data and not just
• 38:26
  like, I'm just obsessed with trying to drive up my EMQ score.
• 38:29
  So I'm going to send a bunch of kind of BS back to meta.
• 38:32
  That's not, that's not helping your efforts at all.
• 38:34
  Anyway.
• 38:34
  And then you get all the way down the funnel to a purchase.
• 38:36
  I make a purchase on the site.
• 38:38
  I'm probably submitting my name, my email address, my actual address,
• 38:42
  shipping address and all that.
• 38:43
  So now we can pass all that additional information back in addition
• 38:47
  to what we had passed before.
• 38:48
  And that's what you gets you up into the high eights, low nines.
• 38:52
  Um, typically for a purchase, which let's be honest, purchase events,
• 38:56
  probably the most important.
• 38:56
  It's what the majority of advertisers are optimizing toward.
• 39:00
  So the match rates really critical.
• 39:02
  We see usually like high eights to low nines, like nine three is usually
• 39:06
  like the highest I've seen it.
• 39:08
  Um, high eights you're probably fine.
• 39:10
  Like eight six, eight seven, anything below an eight.
• 39:13
  Jack speaking to red flags is something we would be like, we want to
• 39:16
  at least look at this and see why.
• 39:18
  Um, metas official documentation is that a six is the minimum they recommend
• 39:23
  to actually use to optimize your ads on, but a purchase event with all the data
• 39:28
  that should be available there.
• 39:29
  You should be in the high eights, low nines in that, in that area.
• 39:33
  So you're going on, you go through this, you're looking at this, you're
• 39:36
  grandeur listening to this and you're looking at the numbers.
• 39:39
  What are the things that you go in and would do to, to like some top things
• 39:44
  you go in and try to solve this to make these a little bit better for some folks.
• 39:47
  Right.
• 39:48
  Or is it all over the map?
• 39:51
  It's, it's a little relative to each event.
• 39:53
  Like what you could practically hope to capture and send with each event.
• 39:58
  I think you just have to be realistic about that.
• 40:00
  Um, what we would do if like we were going to look through it is what are
• 40:03
  we receiving at each stage and does that make sense?
• 40:07
  Um, like, and, and it's, there's a little bit of common sense, not even technical.
• 40:10
  It's like, if someone's added something to their cart, do you have their email
• 40:13
  address, probably not unless they're logged in.
• 40:15
  So am I worried, you know, if, if there's no email on an ad to cart, no, but we
• 40:20
  should be getting their IP address.
• 40:21
  We should be getting other things.
• 40:23
  Um, two, two important things I think is a good time to mention.
• 40:28
  The two most important highest priority match keys and metas whole system.
• 40:33
  And they have documentation on this are the Facebook click ID, the
• 40:37
  FBC parameter and the email, the user email.
• 40:41
  Those are the two most important things.
• 40:43
  If you don't, if you can't send anything else, if you send those two parameters
• 40:47
  and Facebook click IDs, definitely like the top one, and I'll talk about
• 40:50
  that in just a second, but those are the two most important.
• 40:52
  So especially on a purchase event, I would really focus on those.
• 40:56
  I'd look at like, are we getting an email?
• 40:57
  We should probably have it on a hundred percent of events.
• 41:00
  And then are we getting the Facebook click ID?
• 41:03
  Now here's the caveat with the Facebook click ID.
• 41:05
  And this came up when I was talking to Zach, it's not going to be at a
• 41:08
  hundred in your events manager.
• 41:10
  Events manager is every event your site is receiving, not just
• 41:14
  what's being driven by ads.
• 41:15
  So even if a user originates from an organic Google search, you're going to
• 41:19
  get a purchase event fire when they purchase on your site, the click ID,
• 41:23
  that FBC parameter is only going to be present on sessions and purchases
• 41:28
  that came from a meta ad on one of their entities.
• 41:32
  So a lot of times we'll go into a purchase and like FBC parameter will be like
• 41:37
  27% of purchase events have the Facebook click ID.
• 41:41
  That's not a red flag.
• 41:43
  That's not a problem.
• 41:44
  What we always recommend is this.
• 41:45
  Like, if you have the data, like compare that to generally what you think
• 41:49
  that the volume of the proportion of your purchases are that come from meta ads.
• 41:54
  So like, if, if you think that 75% of all your purchases come from a meta ad,
• 41:58
  but you're only at 20% click ID, maybe that's something to look at because
• 42:02
  there should be more of those events then that have that click ID, but it's
• 42:06
  not a red flag to see that number lower than usual in the events manager, a
• 42:10
  lower than a hundred because it's only going to be from the events
• 42:13
  that came from meta ads and that's we're looking at all events.
• 42:16
  Would, so you said compared to kind of what you think meta is driving.
• 42:21
  So it could be, it could be higher than that in the event that maybe you have
• 42:24
  a ton of organic traffic, but meta ads are doing a solid job at capturing
• 42:28
  that and retargeting it with like a DPA or maybe some other stuff, but it might
• 42:31
  be lower than that if you have like a high AOV and the purchase, the person
• 42:36
  took 30, well, maybe you can, you could tell me it's like if they click on the
• 42:40
  ad and they went and researched and came back to it two weeks later after they
• 42:43
  saw something else, are they going to pass through is a Facebook click ID going
• 42:46
  to exist on that purchase event?
• 42:49
  It's possible.
• 42:50
  It all comes down to the cookie expiration because what happens is, and we
• 42:54
  won't get too technical in the weeds, but what happens is when a user clicks
• 42:58
  your ad on Facebook or Instagram, meta pens, a URL parameter to that link
• 43:04
  coming through to your website, kind of like a UTM that a lot of people are
• 43:07
  familiar with, and it's the FBC LID is you can see it in the URL.
• 43:13
  That is a really important value because what that says to meta is it's just a
• 43:17
  string value, but it says this user clicked this ad at this time and then
• 43:23
  went to your site, so it's super deterministic.
• 43:25
  So if you pass that back with your events, medic can look at that FBC and
• 43:28
  be like, well, Brett fish, click this ad at this time at this, and then made a
• 43:33
  purchase on Zach site 10 minutes after we're definitely attributing that purchase.
• 43:37
  So it's really deterministic, but what happens is when you hit the site, if you
• 43:41
  have the meta pixel installed, it'll grab that URL parameter and store it as a
• 43:45
  cookie in the browser.
• 43:47
  And so it really just comes down to the cookie expiration, which a lot of times
• 43:51
  is like, I mean, your attribution and ads manager, a lot of people use like a seven
• 43:54
  day click attribution, but the cookie expiration is usually around like 28
• 43:59
  days. So that value to your question, Brad should still be in there if they come
• 44:04
  back, but you know, in ads manager, if you're only using seven day attribution,
• 44:08
  if it's passed out, it won't attribute, but that click ID will still should still
• 44:12
  be valid as long as the cookie is valid.
• 44:15
  Got it.
• 44:15
  Cool.
• 44:16
  And if you had to Google what deterministic meant when Brett said that
• 44:19
  word, like you're not alone, so it's all good.
• 44:21
  Um, I get it.
• 44:22
  It's the most important though.
• 44:24
  And I, the reason and Zach and I talked a little bit about this on our call, it is
• 44:27
  the most important parameter because it's meta provided, right?
• 44:30
  It's not like I'm submitting an email and we hope the email that I submit on my
• 44:35
  order on the store matches my email that I'm registered with on, on Facebook and
• 44:39
  Instagram, so we can match that up.
• 44:41
  That value is coming directly from meta.
• 44:43
  They know who the user is, when they click the ad, what ad they clicked.
• 44:47
  So it's, it's very, very deterministic.
• 44:50
  If you're going to pass one parameter, that's the one and there's, there's
• 44:53
  a lot of misunderstanding around it.
• 44:54
  Um, but it is important.
• 44:56
  So, but I always want to point out just because it's not on a hundred
• 44:59
  percent of your events, that's not a red flag or anything to freak out about.
• 45:02
  That's normal, but that is a really important one to make sure you're
• 45:06
  capturing and passing, especially if you, um, if you happen to be an
• 45:09
  advertiser that's doing like Cappy only and not using the pixel.
• 45:13
  So you don't have that automatic mechanism of setting the cookie and all that.
• 45:17
  You want to make sure you're manually, you can still manually capture
• 45:20
  that value and pass it with Cappy.
• 45:22
  You want to make sure you're doing that.
• 45:23
  Cause that's a really important value to your optimization
• 45:26
  and add success on the platform.
• 45:29
  Is there anything else that you guys talked about in your call that you
• 45:31
  think you don't want to dig into or do you want to switch over to the
• 45:34
  health and wellness, uh, total non-disaster?
• 45:37
  I think.
• 45:37
  Yeah.
• 45:38
  I mean, that was mostly, that was mostly it, right?
• 45:40
  I think it was just like getting the understanding of what,
• 45:43
  really how Cappy works.
• 45:44
  It's kind of like two channels of information, trying to match some of
• 45:48
  that to like, you know, be duplicate information, ideally Cappy or
• 45:53
  server side data is even stronger to your point to give meta, even more.
• 45:57
  Data back than what you might miss, uh, that, that the pixel might miss.
• 46:02
  Um, so that clarity was helpful.
• 46:03
  The EMC, EMCQ, uh, event managed quality component was important too, because
• 46:09
  again, like without the context of like, is a nine good for purchase?
• 46:13
  You kind of freak out and you're like,
• 46:14
  maybe this is why my ads aren't, aren't working.
• 46:17
  So I think that was just like peace of mind more than anything.
• 46:20
  FPC component of it too.
• 46:22
  Like we were looking across the multiple brands that we own and operate.
• 46:25
  And one of them was at like 48% um, FPC and purchase.
• 46:29
  And one was at like 63 and it was like, okay, that makes more sense on the 63
• 46:33
  one, because it's very impulse purchase related.
• 46:35
  Like I think more of our traffic is actually from meta driving that purchase
• 46:39
  than even other channels, organic email,
• 46:42
  other, other, you know, click based traffic.
• 46:44
  So to get the FPC tag to carry through makes a lot of sense.
• 46:48
  So again, I think for me, it was more just making sure everything was in good
• 46:52
  standing and that if there was something missing that we could at least identify
• 46:55
  it, so, um, which I think is really like the best rationale of like these audits
• 47:01
  with bread is like to get that peace of mind, right?
• 47:03
  Cause otherwise you might just be thinking your ads are, you know, working
• 47:07
  great where they might not be, or you're freaking out like I was thinking that
• 47:10
  that's the issue.
• 47:11
  So, um, meta health and wellness.
• 47:13
  Let's get into that.
• 47:14
  Just before we dive into that though, is, you know, met is one of the main growth
• 47:18
  engines and channels for most advertisers and brands.
• 47:21
  These, these same things kind of about EMQ, like, um, Google has what
• 47:24
  they call enhanced conversions.
• 47:26
  Um, tick tock has match rates, all the same kind of stuff.
• 47:29
  So this is more and more like across all major digital ad platforms is with
• 47:34
  like what medicals EMQ, but is passing back as much user data as possible so
• 47:39
  that these platforms can match website actions with their platform users.
• 47:43
  It's big across all channels.
• 47:45
  Obviously with meta, it's very like granular and broken down and like, you
• 47:48
  can really dive in and see it, but it is relevant and important on, on a lot
• 47:53
  of these ad channels, not just meta, but metas like, you know, where most people
• 47:57
  focus and where it's like really easy to dive into your scores and all that.
• 48:00
  So for what it's worth health and wellness, what's, uh, what's the business?
• 48:04
  What's going on?
• 48:04
  Everybody, everybody freaking out for no reason, or, uh, is it actually a problem?
• 48:09
  No, it's a problem.
• 48:10
  Um, there's a lot of people I know that would, would definitely tell you
• 48:13
  it's a problem, uh, I can give, I mean, feel free to ask any questions like
• 48:17
  you guys have on it, but I can give kind of the quick, we were kind of like
• 48:21
  accidentally ex sort of experts in this area.
• 48:24
  Um, but I can give you the quick kind of backstory and framing.
• 48:28
  So that does sound good.
• 48:29
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 48:31
  So the real start of this is met has been hit with a lot of class action lawsuits
• 48:34
  about, about user data and privacy.
• 48:37
  And that becomes even more.
• 48:39
  Important and critical around industries like health and finance, where that data
• 48:44
  is very, you know, obviously a lot of people have heard of HIPAA, um, health
• 48:48
  privacy data policies and things like that.
• 48:51
  Um, it becomes even more sensitive and important around
• 48:54
  things like health and finance.
• 48:56
  So back in it's, we started getting notices, I think in December of 24.
• 49:00
  So this last year, and then things really started rolling out in January of this
• 49:04
  year, but so meta had rolled out this essentially this.
• 49:08
  Process and set up in their system where they scan the website, the URL, where
• 49:14
  you're sending all of these great events that we've been talking about, like
• 49:18
  purchase events, things like that.
• 49:20
  When those come in, they scan that website with an automated system and kind
• 49:24
  of like how the ad review process works and how they scan ad landing pages.
• 49:28
  Similar, but different and distinct.
• 49:31
  They scan and look for, for any content or data that could be.
• 49:36
  Sensitive.
• 49:37
  So health and wellness related financial related things like that.
• 49:41
  Um, the original rollout that happened in January, they started it, I think
• 49:45
  their highest priority level, which was
• 49:47
  anything that goes after a specific condition.
• 49:49
  So if you're selling a treatment for.
• 49:52
  Anxiety or cancer or something like, like very specific, they went after those
• 49:59
  advertisers first and what happens is they scan the URL on the website.
• 50:02
  And then they apply a category that's like a health and wellness category.
• 50:06
  Um, if you're curious, if you are, are in that category, it might be in the
• 50:10
  events manager that we talked about in the settings, there's a section that
• 50:13
  says manage data source categories.
• 50:16
  And you can go in there and see if your domain has been categorized, but.
• 50:20
  Um, they rolled out a category that was health and wellness condition.
• 50:23
  And there to your point, Brad, this is a big deal because the restriction that
• 50:27
  came that accompanied that in events manager was you lost your lower funnel
• 50:32
  events, most likely, um, the reason for that is those are all intent based events.
• 50:36
  Right.
• 50:36
  So anyone can accidentally click an ad hit a website, but let's say I have
• 50:40
  athletes foot, right?
• 50:41
  Gross.
• 50:42
  I go, I see an Adam like best athletes, but treatment suite, I go to the site.
• 50:46
  I add to cart and I purchase that sending a pretty strong signal back to meta that
• 50:50
  that I have athletes foot because I purchased a treatment and that's what
• 50:54
  that site's about.
• 50:55
  So that's what they were trying to eliminate is so they eliminated
• 50:58
  everything below, lower in the funnel interview content.
• 51:01
  So I had the car initiate checkout, all the pay ad payment method purchase,
• 51:04
  all that stuff and went away.
• 51:06
  So that's a huge deal because 90% of advertisers are, are optimizing for
• 51:10
  purchase, you lose that event.
• 51:12
  Your performance is going to pretty much start degrading immediately,
• 51:14
  which is what we saw.
• 51:16
  So, um, you know, there were some options that came up.
• 51:19
  There were options on X that were talked a lot about like, um, using custom events.
• 51:23
  Ironically, meta originally said, don't do that.
• 51:25
  They produce documentation that said, don't do that.
• 51:27
  But now there's like.
• 51:29
  Dozens of firsthand accounts of meta reps actually telling advertisers
• 51:31
  use custom events and just keep advertising.
• 51:34
  But that was the solution then was, you know, um, use an event that in all
• 51:39
  practical purposes is a purchase event, but call it something else, call it
• 51:42
  success or call it, you know, whatever.
• 51:45
  And we'll pass that back.
• 51:46
  Only those standard events like purchase are blocked.
• 51:49
  So you can keep using these custom events.
• 51:51
  And that was, that was a solution for a while that worked.
• 51:53
  I'd say it was probably about Mike, just my take was about 60% successful.
• 51:58
  We heard some that it didn't work for, but some it did work for.
• 52:01
  Um, and then in June, they introduced a new wrinkle and they introduced a new
• 52:06
  categorization that was health and wellness other, which is a lot more gray
• 52:09
  area and like generalistic, but it's essentially any business that's like,
• 52:14
  or advertiser that's tangential to health and wellness.
• 52:17
  So not even a condition, but, um, you know, it can be all sorts of things
• 52:21
  that are related to health and wellness.
• 52:22
  And you get hit with this health and wellness other categorization.
• 52:26
  And the restriction is, is that you get put into what's called core setup.
• 52:29
  You don't get lose your bottom of funnel events necessarily,
• 52:32
  but they put you into core setup.
• 52:35
  Core setup.
• 52:35
  I've seen some stuff on Twitter from some people like, oh, core
• 52:37
  setup will destroy your ad account.
• 52:39
  I don't totally agree with that on a technical level.
• 52:41
  Cause core setup was around before health and wellness.
• 52:44
  They've used it in like other industries like finance.
• 52:47
  It's just a way to close some data loopholes so that as advertisers, we
• 52:50
  can't pass sensitive data back in like URL parameters like UTMs or in event data.
• 52:57
  So I can't add a custom parameter to my purchase event.
• 53:00
  That's like credit score, right?
• 53:02
  They block that cause they're like, you're in finance.
• 53:04
  You can't send that stuff.
• 53:05
  So it's a, it's a way to close data loopholes.
• 53:07
  What's been interesting though is, and this is from talking to dozens
• 53:11
  and dozens of advertisers.
• 53:13
  It seems though, however, when that categorization is applied to the dataset,
• 53:18
  that there is some negative impact on the ad account.
• 53:23
  Um, one client referred to it as a mysterious force, which is, I think
• 53:26
  is about as specific as we can be.
• 53:28
  Meta has not produced any like documentation or comms on this, but you
• 53:33
  know, once we saw it across.
• 53:35
  Dozens and dozens of accounts, you're like, okay, this isn't just a one-off.
• 53:38
  This is a, this is a trend.
• 53:39
  This is a thing where once that health and wellness categorization hits the
• 53:43
  dataset and you're put into core setup, we've seen like spend dropping
• 53:47
  conversion rate, dropping CPA, like going
• 53:50
  up, like negative impact on the ad account.
• 53:53
  And so all we're left to sort of deduce from that is once you get categorized,
• 53:58
  there is a negative impact on your ad account and a lot of advertisers
• 54:02
  have been struggling with that.
• 54:03
  So to your point, Brad, like, I know that was like a long winded backstory,
• 54:06
  but it's a very real thing.
• 54:08
  And there's a lot of really high level operators that I respect.
• 54:11
  And I know they know their stuff where they're like, nothing else changed.
• 54:15
  This happened and it's been like a decline since then and immediately.
• 54:20
  So it's definitely a real thing.
• 54:22
  It's impacted a lot of advertisers.
• 54:23
  Unfortunately, there hasn't been a lot of clarity and comms around like who
• 54:26
  qualifies or doesn't the only real option you have is there's a manual review
• 54:30
  button that you can be like request review.
• 54:33
  And then you sit there like this and hope that that works.
• 54:36
  And then if it comes back and is like your SLL that's it.
• 54:40
  And so, um, there are some options.
• 54:44
  But it's, that's really all you can do.
• 54:47
  No, no great options.
• 54:49
  Um, I mean, since I've been running and
• 54:52
  he's dick pills.com, it's been tough for us.
• 54:56
  Honestly, though, there's no, a lot of your own information back to meta.
• 54:59
  Yeah, there isn't, there doesn't seem to be a great way to navigate this, which
• 55:04
  is one of the most depressing things that I tell, like we had a rash of people
• 55:09
  that joined off of a blog post.
• 55:11
  Um, that we still regularly have people that are affected by this.
• 55:16
  And I'm like, there's really not anything magical I can tell you to do.
• 55:19
  Those that approach you, Brad, is it similar?
• 55:21
  Like you said, there's not, are there anything that they can do?
• 55:24
  I mean, you can obviously eliminate claims from your landing pages, you know,
• 55:28
  that kind of thing, but it doesn't, not anything technically.
• 55:31
  There are options.
• 55:32
  Um, there are solutions that I won't necessarily go into detail on the podcast.
• 55:37
  Um, one of those 387 listeners might be an engineer at meta and I don't
• 55:41
  want them coming for me, but, um, there are, there are a couple of things we can
• 55:45
  do that we've helped some advertisers put in place to deal with that.
• 55:48
  Um, if anyone that's listening is interested, just reach out, um, my
• 55:52
  emails, just Brett, be our ETT at tag hero.io or send a message to our website.
• 55:57
  But just, just reach out and like, we can talk through like what we would want to
• 56:00
  look at is exactly what are you seeing?
• 56:02
  Like what restrictions do you have?
• 56:04
  What are you facing?
• 56:05
  And then we could talk about what are some potential solutions.
• 56:08
  Um, there are some things that can be done.
• 56:10
  Um, candidly, there's nothing that the only things you can do that comply
• 56:14
  with terms, metas terms are you use your like good old view content
• 56:18
  event for optimization, which is an ideal, or you try to scrub your site
• 56:22
  and submit for a review, but like we've had clients be like, even if we could
• 56:27
  do that, like, especially in medical, they're like, it's going to take us
• 56:30
  almost like a year between generating all the new copy, running it through
• 56:33
  legal approvals, like getting it up on the site and redesign, like it's
• 56:36
  just going to take forever.
• 56:38
  So there's not a lot of good options.
• 56:39
  And candidly, we've seen a really low success rate on those reviews.
• 56:43
  Um, the ones we've heard about that are successful usually have aggressive,
• 56:47
  um, reps at meta inside to help push that stuff through, but we see a
• 56:52
  really low rate on those.
• 56:53
  We have seen some successful, but overall low rate.
• 56:56
  So outside of those things, there are a couple of technical things that we
• 56:59
  might be able to do to help, but it really depends on your situation and,
• 57:02
  and what you're seeing and dealing with.
• 57:04
  And then maybe there's some ways we can help, but, um, it's, it's tough for
• 57:08
  everyone because, you know, a lot of these advertisers, we, you know, you, we
• 57:12
  have a client and a friend who sells bath bombs and they were categorized and
• 57:17
  he's just like WTF, right?
• 57:18
  Like where we sell bath bombs, like, is this really health and wellness?
• 57:22
  And it's tough.
• 57:23
  And they were having, you know, some pretty significant negative
• 57:26
  impact on their ad account.
• 57:27
  So it has really impacted a lot of advertisers.
• 57:29
  And it's one of those things that's just curve ball, right?
• 57:32
  And like very frustrating for a lot of them.
• 57:34
  Yeah.
• 57:35
  I mean, I, I was quoted in an investor business daily article that I got
• 57:38
  interviewed for about this, that I think it's fundamentally unfair that some of
• 57:41
  these people, some people can like hound a rep and can like get basically, you
• 57:48
  know, oh yeah, no worries.
• 57:49
  And then there's all these other people that exist in the world that are like
• 57:53
  running completely legitimate companies that don't have the same level.
• 57:56
  This just feels it's just unfair.
• 57:57
  And there's always the golden rule with that too, right?
• 58:00
  If you spend enough gold, you can break the rules.
• 58:02
  So like there's elements of that too.
• 58:05
  Yeah.
• 58:06
  Yeah.
• 58:07
  Um, guys, anything else?
• 58:09
  I have, um, maybe this is like two in the weeds and maybe this is a
• 58:12
  topic for another discussion, but have you seen, um, anything work well
• 58:16
  related to not optimizing for purchase?
• 58:18
  Like you've set up, so you mentioned like the new, new customer event, but
• 58:22
  that's still kind of related to purchase.
• 58:24
  But I know there's a bunch of like quiz funnel completions you could try.
• 58:27
  I know Cody from Jones road has talked about, um, other mid funnel events that
• 58:31
  he's testing, he's seen, he's seen some success with, he specifically mentioned
• 58:34
  they had a great podcast with, um, Eric.
• 58:36
  I don't want to say his last name, Seafruit maybe.
• 58:38
  Um, and they kind of talked about this idea of signal engineering.
• 58:40
  Something that Cody said that was really interesting.
• 58:42
  And I think Eric said on the podcast, these are try is like adding in some
• 58:45
  friction if you're going to try a mid funnel event, like, Hey, send people to
• 58:49
  the landing page, but don't fire the view content on the landing page, but
• 58:52
  optimize review content, which is the next page after that.
• 58:54
  So somebody has to go through the landing page and then get to the product
• 58:57
  page, have you seen any like crazy setups that have actually been meaningful?
• 59:02
  Everybody's just guessing and seeing if it works.
• 59:05
  No, I mean, and at the end of the day, it's hard because I'd say like, try
• 59:08
  test it and every account is so different that like, it's rare that blanket
• 59:12
  advice just works for everybody.
• 59:15
  Um, you know, and the other thing I'd just be upfront about is we, we, we
• 59:19
  don't always get the backend, like media buying insight and results.
• 59:22
  Like after we've worked on stuff or put things in, they don't come back to us
• 59:25
  necessarily and be like, we do it definitely here on some things like this
• 59:28
  works versus not, but like, um, I think some of that stuff is definitely worth
• 59:32
  testing, you know, I think, I think especially for large brands, like a
• 59:36
  Jones road, high spend, right?
• 59:39
  I think you get to a certain point where you can almost tap out like the purchase
• 59:42
  event optimization.
• 59:44
  Cause if you think about it, when that is really doing is saying, well, we were
• 59:47
  talking about earlier with the MQ, Brad, you go on Jones road, you get, you know,
• 59:51
  some, some exfoliant, whatever it is.
• 59:53
  And they're like, cool, Brad bought this.
• 59:55
  Let's go find more brands.
• 59:57
  Well, you get to the point where that, where that process you start like with
• 1:00:02
  huge daily spends and stuff, you start to tap that out.
• 1:00:05
  So I've definitely heard of large brands with large spends, like over time,
• 1:00:08
  especially where it's like, we've been running ads for years.
• 1:00:11
  We're spending a hundred thousand dollars a day or whatever.
• 1:00:14
  And it's like, you get to the point where maybe introducing some upper funnel
• 1:00:17
  events just will sort of tweak and shock the system a little bit and go after a
• 1:00:22
  different pool and sort of cohort of users on the platform and bring them in.
• 1:00:27
  So I think like optimizing for that stuff is definitely worth a test, like
• 1:00:31
  optimizing for upper funnel events.
• 1:00:33
  And then, yeah, I mean, I, I think at the end of the day, what is a purchase
• 1:00:37
  event to meta, right?
• 1:00:38
  It's an intent.
• 1:00:39
  It's this user converted on the site.
• 1:00:42
  So we want to go find more of them.
• 1:00:43
  So I think in that same light, if you want to optimize for a quiz completion,
• 1:00:47
  that's pretty high intent.
• 1:00:49
  Someone clicked your ad and went to a site and went through a whole quiz
• 1:00:52
  process and submitted some info.
• 1:00:54
  That's pretty high intent.
• 1:00:55
  Let's go after other people who are going to complete the quiz.
• 1:00:57
  Cause at the end of the day, worst case scenario, maybe they're not converting
• 1:01:00
  immediately, but you are getting like, they're, they're getting pixeled when
• 1:01:04
  they hit your site for retargeting or, you know, you're getting their email,
• 1:01:07
  maybe with the quiz for email marketing and retention.
• 1:01:10
  There's, there's some other things, positives that can come out of it too,
• 1:01:13
  other than just a pure like purchase transaction conversion.
• 1:01:15
  So I think it's definitely worth testing that stuff.
• 1:01:18
  One, just like anecdotal thing we saw a long time ago when I was running more
• 1:01:22
  on my agency, we had a client that was very lead based.
• 1:01:24
  They, they produce tons of lead magnets, like recipes and things like that.
• 1:01:28
  And initially we were optimizing for the lead event, right?
• 1:01:31
  Which was great.
• 1:01:32
  We got tons of leads and like we put these lead magnets out and got a lot of leads.
• 1:01:36
  But when we did a cohort analysis afterward, they weren't, we were getting a
• 1:01:40
  lot of leads and they're, you know, they might've been converting other ways,
• 1:01:43
  but we weren't getting actually a ton of
• 1:01:44
  like purchase conversions at the end of it.
• 1:01:46
  Like commensurate with the lead volume.
• 1:01:48
  So we ran a test and instead of optimizing for leads, we actually optimized
• 1:01:51
  for purchases so that those ads with those lead magnets were actually shown to
• 1:01:55
  people who were more like our purchasers and not people who were just more likely
• 1:02:00
  to complete a lead and it takes a little bit of work outside of just like period
• 1:02:04
  platform metrics, but when we looked at the cohort analysis on the backend, that
• 1:02:08
  group, even though it was a lead magnet, they're just down there.
• 1:02:12
  The purchase value of that cohort was much higher than the lead event optimization.
• 1:02:17
  So I definitely think there's an element of like signal engineering and kind of
• 1:02:21
  like what you want.
• 1:02:22
  I would still tell most advertisers optimize for what you want, which is a
• 1:02:25
  purchase, but I think if you get to certain size and scale or you want to try
• 1:02:29
  other intent based things like, like quizzes or, you know, the thing with like
• 1:02:33
  the view content after a landing page to add a little more friction, what that
• 1:02:36
  does is that makes that view content event have a little more intent to it
• 1:02:40
  because you had to take an extra step.
• 1:02:42
  Um, I know the guys that are obvious at one point, we're working on this too.
• 1:02:45
  Cause like they were like, how much signal
• 1:02:48
  can we send the minute they hit the website?
• 1:02:50
  So we're capturing as much as possible.
• 1:02:52
  Like there's a couple of different ways to look at that, but, um, especially the
• 1:02:57
  stuff on the higher intense stuff like quizzes, I think it's fire an event.
• 1:03:00
  When you complete a quiz, optimize toward that and see what that does.
• 1:03:03
  Maybe take some winning ads that you know are successful and try that and
• 1:03:07
  see how the results compare.
• 1:03:08
  Um, I think a lot of that is definitely worth testing and accounts for sure.
• 1:03:12
  Yeah.
• 1:03:12
  And we saw the same thing with lead optimization for what's worth with people
• 1:03:15
  who do like early access to new product launches and things like that.
• 1:03:18
  Um, and then that's probably ultimately also why meta changed the way that you
• 1:03:22
  can optimize for a conversion based lead in more recently where you can connect
• 1:03:26
  your CRM and actually tell them, okay, people are actually progressing down the
• 1:03:30
  funnel and that you can optimize for those things, those things better because
• 1:03:33
  yeah, optimizing for lead might just get you a bunch of shit leads.
• 1:03:36
  If you don't add some friction there.
• 1:03:38
  So yeah, that's a great point.
• 1:03:39
  Yep.
• 1:03:40
  Cool.
• 1:03:40
  Brett, thank you for joining us and, uh, we appreciate it.
• 1:03:43
  And, uh, if anybody has any questions, feel free to hit up tag hero or
• 1:03:48
  email me, Andrew at Foxwell, digital.com.
• 1:03:50
  Um, I've had five people do that.
• 1:03:52
  So wow, big numbers and, uh, everybody's one of them.
• 1:03:55
  Yeah.
• 1:03:57
  Everybody have a great rest of the day.
• 1:03:58
  Thank you.
• 1:04:06
  This episode is brought to you by Homestead's email and SMS service.
• 1:04:11
  Honestly, we've, we've done an episode with, with Jacob from Homestead.
• 1:04:14
  He's the man and he's got, he's got to be probably one of the smartest
• 1:04:17
  email and retention operators like on the agency side hands down.
• 1:04:21
  I look forward to seeing the tweets that he puts out basically every
• 1:04:25
  single month with like a recap of the designs and as amazing as the
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• 1:04:32
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• 1:04:44
  So just killing it.
• 1:04:45
  Yeah, absolutely agree.
• 1:04:46
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• 1:04:50
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• 1:04:54
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• 1:04:55
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• 1:05:00
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• 1:05:04
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• 1:05:06
  I actually had a member who sat down with, with Jacob at the founder meetup
• 1:05:11
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• 1:05:15
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• 1:05:20
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