Latest / Masculine Containment / 46 - He Knew Why He Was Triggered. He Still Couldn’t Stop: Tomer Kurman's Brotherhood Story

Transcript

46 - He Knew Why He Was Triggered. He Still Couldn’t Stop: Tomer Kurman's Brotherhood Story · Masculine Containment

0:01
Welcome to another episode of Masculine Containment.
0:04
I'm excited today to have another one of our members from the Third Brotherhood Container.
0:09
I've got Tomer Kerman here today who is going to be sharing his experience.
0:15
And I feel like it's a privilege every time I get to do one of these interviews.
0:19
Tomer, thanks so much for being here, brother.
0:21
Thank you.
0:21
Yeah, thank you, Alex.
0:23
Yeah, for sure, man.
0:25
Let's jump right in.
0:26
So you were in our third container.
0:29
Let's go back to before you joined the brotherhood.
0:33
Share with us what was going on in your life, what was happening before that.
0:38
Mm-hmm.
0:40
Oh, man, it just definitely feels like night and day, like there's so much that has happened during and after.
0:48
A little bit about kind of where I was prior to getting into this container, I found myself in
1:03
some hard moments in my relationship.
1:06
Um, I've been my partner for four and a half years and we had this pattern that kept happening in our relationship and you touched on it in some of your videos and Instagrams, which I was exposed to early on where there's this like
1:25
horrible cycle of just like trigger escalation, you know, withdrawal, and then you have to kind of repair damage is always done.
1:33
And you kind of find yourself in this state of just worrying that the there's a fight right around the corner, and the fights will get
1:45
you know, and particularly I'm going to went back a little bit.
1:49
There was a pattern where my partner would bring an emotion to me.
1:54
So it could be a dissatisfaction with something that's happening in her life, or usually it's one of the quote unquote negative feelings, like things like grief or sadness or anger.
2:09
She would bring those things to me and, and,
2:12
if it had nothing to do with me, I would go into a place of judgment and criticism of her of like, why are you choosing to like, you know, choosing this perspective that's so negative and coming from a place where you know, I, for the majority of my life, I thought the goal was, you know, stay positive, which is kind of like a toxic trait, where we're taught as men to,
2:38
you know, never go into the shallow depth of like grief or sadness.
2:44
So she would bring something to me.
2:46
And I would feel this need to pull away and
2:53
I would react either with criticism or defensiveness or trying to kind of like course correct her and her way of thinking and how to express things or here's a way that you're maybe not optimally looking at this.
3:07
And it would inevitably just rupture our trust.
3:11
It would rupture
3:14
you know, our relationship and just the foundation of how we relate to one another.
3:19
And if it were, if she were to bring something to me that has something to do with me directly, particularly with something I did or something, or some sort of an impact that, you know,
3:31
my action or lack thereof is created on her brought to her.
3:37
I would just respond so poorly, and I would get defensive eventually.
3:42
And my whenever I felt that my performance was questioned, I would,
3:51
there's like a deep wound that would be triggered.
3:55
Which I know I have now going through this work and still going.
3:58
I know that whenever my performance or my Yeah, my parents when my performance is questioned, I get into the super defensive mode.
4:09
And we would argue and fight shoot, I would escalate and I get to a point where
4:16
there would be yelling and there would be just like aggressive language.
4:19
And eventually I would inevitably reach an emotion that I'm really uncomfortable with.
4:26
So whether if it's sadness or especially like anger, I would find myself just
4:33
reactive and feeling so unsafe in my body where all I wanted to do is be aggressive and defend, and even like punch a wall every once in a while just because I just did not know what to do with all of this energy.
4:49
that's in me like i would be angry and i would be upset and that will all come out to her inevitably i would hurt her with my i've never obviously laid my hands on her never was you know physical with her but like just my body language and just my yeah my entire presence was just
5:11
aggravated and violent and I wouldn't it would inevitably create a lot of damage which in the cycle was I create damage I come back I apologize whether it fits and usually after a long period of time I would have to
5:27
really sit with what I've done and realize the impact I've done.
5:31
And inevitably I would have to create, create more safety and fix and repair.
5:36
And which I suck, by the way, I'm not good at that cycle.
5:39
I don't repair really well.
5:40
It took me a long time to figure out what does repair mean?
5:44
What does it look like?
5:45
And after every cycle like that, I would just come out with a to-do list.
5:51
all of the things I had to do, whether if it's date nights or checking in or whether if you know, there's, after every fight, I would just find myself overwhelmed with all of these things I need to improve.
6:05
And that would just feel I'd feel so much pressure, so much pressure, you know, the relationship is on the line, you know, there's a lot of guilt and shame in me as well.
6:14
Like, how could I have responded that way I should be able
6:18
to know how to manage my emotion, I should be able to hold her emotions.
6:21
And yeah, I would just find myself in the same exact position over and over again.
6:29
Um, and it would just suck.
6:31
It would just like be really, really hard because there's, it would create so much unsafety in my body and I would have to deal with all of that.
6:40
And not only would I have to try to repair the relationship, repair our dynamics, I'd have to face these really ugly, really ugly, gross parts, or at least that's how I felt at that moment.
6:51
And those moments, um, I would just feel.
6:57
honestly, like, like a monster.
6:59
Sometimes I would feel like, like, what kind of man am I, if I can't, you know, face these things in myself and I'm hurting the people around me.
7:07
Um, and another pattern, like I'm very much an avoidant person, or at least was when it comes to those situations, the only, the first, first thing that I want to do when, you know, hard conversation after the escalation happened, the first thing I want to do
7:22
Just pull away.
7:23
I just want to pull away.
7:25
I don't want to be part of this.
7:27
I just want her to stop.
7:28
I would say, I would say, try to say things to her that hopefully will get her to stop
7:35
you know, having, you know, stopped, I would call it complaining at the time, or I would do whatever I can to just move past this.
7:43
I don't want to deal with this.
7:44
And, you know, I was never, I feel like I was never given the right tools to just know how to deal with these emotions, these
7:55
quite frankly, probably healthy emotions that just are suppressed so much that they're almost like they're pressurized to the extent of feeling so unsafe and so, so big that once they start leaking out, they
8:10
come out in these like devastating and so destructive ways.
8:16
And, you know, I grew up, I had somewhat of a, I came from Soviet origin, Soviet family, and my dad was never...
8:27
was never really good with sitting with uncomfortable sensations or really discerning his feelings when it came to disappointment or anger or frustration or even grief, which led him to drinking problems.
8:42
And, you know, I, so my example was often, you know, how do we as men deal with these big emotions is that we either drink or we get angry.
8:56
or we become loud and we try to, you know, suppress and push down the, the, the party that's trying to bring us something.
9:03
We're trying to make them smaller and make them not right, not correct.
9:07
Or, um, so that was my example of what masculinity is, or at least subconsciously, I never thought that that is the right way to deal with these things, but subconsciously, I think I've internalized
9:21
so much of that inability to face these really uncomfortable feelings with just repression, avoidance, withdrawal, that was just my example to how to deal with this.
9:38
And
9:41
um yeah so it got to a point where i knew something had to change i was really at a point where i was so lost so confused questioning my relationship do i you know and i was starting to question like is she the right partner for me is she you know is is she the problem am i the problem and
10:04
I was just in a state of confusion and being lost and not having anyone to really go to with this.
10:10
And I have a therapist.
10:11
I went to a therapist and it felt like reiterating and talking about the story and like, you know, oh yeah, I didn't know I'm, this is happening because of this in my childhood and here's the reason why.
10:21
And you know, my father was this and my mother was that.
10:24
And it's great to know these things.
10:26
And it's, I think it's wonderful to be able to pinpoint and create like a map of like, oh, this is where I am because of, you know,
10:33
But then when it came to really being, dealing with this, you know, and especially, you know, when you go to therapy, especially like CBT or all the, you're given all these tools, which are wonderful tools, great tools.
10:49
And then once you get to that, you know, you have the plethora of like vocabulary of the things you're going to say or like the...
10:57
you know, the things you need to do when, and then you get to the point and then it happens, the fires there.
11:03
And it's all of that just goes down the train.
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All of it.
11:07
None of it is relevant.
11:08
None of it is available.
11:11
All you mean to laugh.
11:12
I just knew where you know, dude, I've been there.
11:14
Yeah.
11:15
I'm sure every man is there.
11:17
You're supporting so my stories.
11:19
This is so relatable.
11:20
I don't want to cut you off.
11:21
Keep going.
11:21
It's so good.
11:22
I'm with you.
11:23
Yeah.
11:24
And it's, you know, once you get to that point, all of the tools that my therapists have gave me, the only thing that's on my mind at that moment of really intense escalation, the only thing that's there is like, how the hell do I survive this?
11:40
Yeah.
11:40
What do I do?
11:41
And the immediate sense of like my nervous system feels so activated and so strongly wanting to pull away from the situation that like to the point, I'm not using this word lightly, to the point of feeling pain, like feeling this like intense pain.
12:03
need to withdraw an intense just need to just stop this um
12:12
And it's, it's just a lot.
12:14
And it's, I just didn't know what to do and no community to go to, especially as a men, you know, I found myself, I have good friends.
12:20
Obviously I have like friends from childhood, but a lot of men couldn't meet me there.
12:26
Like I can't, when I'm asked like, Hey, how's it going?
12:29
You know, as all most men do, the first thing you're going to say is fine.
12:34
Cause you, you don't want to either burden your.
12:38
family, loved ones or friends, or you don't want to be seen as, you don't want them to see the vulnerability, you don't want to be seen broken.
12:47
And so there's no community, no one to go to with these problems other than your therapist who offers you tools who are valuable and he offers you, you know, what he was taught at the time based on, you know, whatever psychology or psychology.
13:06
is available, but it just was never enough.
13:09
I, you know, this idea that we're equal in a relationship and, you know, we each get our turn to say what we want and we're both wired the same way in a heterosexual dynamic.
13:23
It just felt like something's off.
13:27
Like it just felt like something had to change.
13:30
I need to be able to go to someone with this.
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get the tools to learn how to grow.
13:39
And I always knew that, you know, the way to, I don't want to say overcome this, but the way to, uh,
13:49
the way to grow with this is through this.
13:52
And I knew that this was like a part of my growing and a part of my spiritual path, I, I very much so see my relationship as my as a spiritual path.
14:00
And I see how she is, you know, my way to divinity through her and through our relationship and through our dynamics.
14:09
I can find a better me if I take the right turns if I'm able to
14:16
really leverage this process into becoming a better man.
14:24
Yeah, that's, I think that kind of summarizes, sure stuff will come up as we go along, but that, that, that was kind of where I was at.
14:32
I was just at a place where complete disillusion, complete, completely being lost, being angry, being, that's another thing.
14:40
So I think one of the aversion to like sitting and talking and being vulnerable is just like not.
14:48
like being so scared of my own self, like I have no control.
14:52
Like I know that any moment I could erupt and create rupture and repair.
14:58
Like there's, it's not even about what she brings.
15:00
It's about how I react.
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I have no control over this.
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I have no control over my own nervous system.
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Like at any moment I can become this big, scary thing that will just regret and go into the same loops and cycles.
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And
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I was just fed up.
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I couldn't do this anymore.
15:16
I either, you know, accept the fact that I'm, you know, going to be alone forever and never have a relationship or I need to, I need to get better clarity and more understanding about what this is and how do I move forward.
15:33
Tom, that is, I mean, I got chills so many times while you were talking.
15:38
You shared that in such a grounded,
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vulnerable, real, transparent, and fuck dude, so relatable.
15:49
So relatable, I mean, so much of that.
15:51
Especially like at the beginning when you talked about whether she brought an emotion to you that was about you or not, there's still the reaction.
16:00
And I think a lot of men, like when you slow things down and look at that, it's like, man, sometimes it's not even about you, but we're still wanting to get the emotions out of the room as quickly as we can.
16:11
and the need to pull away, and when your performance is questioned, you become super defensive.
16:16
I mean, seriously, I feel like I could take the transcript and change three or four words, and it's my experience so, so similar.
16:25
Especially, especially the going to therapy, because I did for years, like actually for over a decade.
16:33
Decades, decades, I started when I was 26.
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And I mean, I understood the wounding, I understood the conditioning, I knew what was happening, but like, and even though I did EMDR therapy, which helped me so much with not just CBT, not just spiraling into the problem over and over again, but really like moving through some of the trauma, it wasn't until I understand the work that we do in the brotherhood that I was able to say, hey, there's a way to stop this pattern.
16:59
And so that was just so relatable, man.
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especially the tools.
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I always joke with people, you know, nonviolent communication would be such a great tool if you didn't feel violent every time you started using it.
17:13
Totally.
17:14
Absolutely.
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It's like the words are one thing.
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The energy is completely different.
17:20
Yes.
17:21
So tell us how you found the brotherhood you mentioned in school or, you know, how did you, how did you come around the work to the work that we do in the society?
17:32
Um, yeah.
17:34
So I have stumbled upon your content.
17:37
It's actually my partner that sent me one of your videos.
17:42
Um, and I can't remember the exact topic you were talking about, but obviously you're talking about containment.
17:50
And I remember that, yeah, it was during a breaking point for me where I was trying to really find anything that I could learn or.
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anything that I could latch on to really gain some wisdom and experience in this matter.
18:11
And the things you were talking about were so foreign to me, or they felt right.
18:16
Like it felt true.
18:18
You know how sometimes you hear something and you feel like, oh yeah, intuitively, you feel like that makes total sense.
18:25
Like intuitively, you know, that's right.
18:27
And then I've heard you talking about this concept of containment.
18:31
And this was during your recruitment of the first container.
18:36
I remember the one you were offering for free and there was like a smaller container or something experimental that you're doing.
18:42
And honestly, I brewed on it.
18:44
I didn't jump on the gun at that time because, you know, I didn't know much about you.
18:51
I didn't know about your work.
18:52
And...
18:54
this part of me was still maybe skeptical to some degree about what this could look like.
19:02
And yeah, a few weeks passed by and, you know, things kept escalating my relationship.
19:11
And I thought to myself, you know what, I'm going to try that container at the time that container was already filled up.
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And you mentioned that it's going to be another container starting in May.
19:26
And so I went into just your content on social media and I just watched and you were really in the beginning at that time and I was just, you know, watching your content and just pondering and thinking and trying to see reflect, you know, where does this, how does this relate to.
19:43
to in my life, like, well, how, how is that imprint?
19:47
And the more I kind of dove into some of your content, the more there was like these clicks and it made sense.
19:55
Like I could see the pattern.
19:57
I can see that this is happening in my relationship as well.
20:00
And I could see all the things.
20:02
And I, by the way, I started this process like before even getting into the container, just like listening to your stuff.
20:10
I started picking these like, you know, points of wisdom and these, um, these concepts and trying to implement them before.
20:19
And, and these things started making sense.
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And, you know, obviously I didn't have a structured, um, plan or like a structured way of initiating myself into this, but I already kind of started practicing these things, practicing, you know, listening, practicing, and it felt so unnatural to sit there.
20:38
and listen to your partner while every cell in your body is just burning, right?
20:44
Burning with pain.
20:45
And I, you know, it makes me emotional right now because on a literal sense, it feels like pain.
20:51
It feels like there's a bear around the corner.
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It feels like an immediate danger.
20:57
urgency like it actually can feel like physical pain like pain absolutely absolutely yeah like i had a thought can i die from this at the beginning and it it feels completely irrational to say it out loud but at the time it was like it felt like a rational thought so i don't mean to cut you off but i just want to relate to you that yeah man it's it's it's hard at the beginning it's like you're you're turning all the habits and conditioning in your life 180 yeah yeah and it and you know i you know
21:26
If I were my, my, um, higher self knew that this is right, but my body feels like this is wrong.
21:35
This is, this is not good, you know?
21:38
And there's this dichotomy between.
21:41
this push and pull between, I know this is the work.
21:45
I know this is what needs to happen.
21:47
And my body just wants to do everything but this.
21:52
Everything, like it's like every sense, every cell in my body wants to go into the habitual old pattern of
22:02
protecting, raising my voice, being defensiveness, all of it.
22:07
And so this, this crazy pull, and it makes sense, right?
22:11
Like our, our, um, our consciousness is often does not pull, you know, we don't act based on what feels right.
22:19
We, we act based on what feels natural and what feels, um,
22:25
um what we recognize familiar yeah that's the word thank you um so that so my compass in terms of like what's happening here my north star was so discombobulated and so off because
22:41
on the one hand, I want to get better, or I want to be a better partner, I want to be a better listener.
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On the other hand, my body is just raging and burning into, you know, this is not right.
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She Oh, this is, you know, she would say something.
22:54
And immediately, I would be like, No, but that's not accurate.
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Actually, this is how it was.
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And you're not actually perceiving in the right way.
23:00
You're not, you know, here's what, here's my intention.
23:03
Oh, there it is.
23:03
The word intention, which one of the things you're, you were talking about in your teachings is
23:11
focus on taking, focus on the impact that you're making rather than intention.
23:18
Because you can be, you can think you're a good person, you can have your intentions well aligned with what, your intention could be good, but the impact that you're making on another person, taking responsibility for that,
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that is like the hard road.
23:37
That is like realizing that, you know what, A, it makes you think, you know, it makes you question, maybe I'm not as complete and perfect as I thought I am, but on the other hand, you're also taking responsibility by what kind of
23:55
impact you're leaving on the people around you we're not isolated uh we're not isolated like islands that we walk alone and just like you know we affect only ourselves we affect others as well or particularly our loved ones and those are the people that get most of the fire we can be completely nice to a stranger and you know hold but then when it comes to our loved ones they get like the worst parts of us yeah and then there's there's an element of
24:23
I think the biggest lie that a man can tell himself, and I've had this in my relationship, is where, oh, you should accept me for who I am.
24:33
Like, why don't you?
24:35
And that's such a big lie, right?
24:37
The fact that,
24:39
We all, this karmic masculine wound of I'm not good enough is so ingrained with, oh, why can't you just accept, you know, I'm flawed, you know, this is me, why can't you just accept me, right?
24:53
Which goes in so much out of alignment with the feminine karmic wound of being too much
24:59
And so you're kind of so invested in this idea that you never have to grow and you have, you can keep being a child and you should be accepted for what you are, which is such a big lie.
25:08
Who wants to just stay still?
25:10
Who wants to never grow, never be, you know, never mature, never become an adult?
25:15
Like, that's such a big lie that I was completely, completely encapsulated in and it's
25:26
once I let that go, I, I, um, I started seeing the pattern.
25:31
I started, yeah, just started trying to move, move past like my old habitual patterning.
25:40
So good, man.
25:41
Um, again, so relatable.
25:43
Like I'm, I keep getting full body chills with just sentences that you say where I'm like, oh man, that hits me like at a soul level.
25:50
Um,
25:52
So you were doing this work on your own, you were watching social media, you jumped into the container in May.
25:57
Tell us what it was like getting into the Brotherhood.
26:01
What was that like for you?
26:02
You've done a lot of work.
26:04
I can tell just by the dialogue.
26:05
You've done a lot of work prior to this.
26:07
What was it like getting into the group?
26:11
Um...
26:13
Yeah, I think I was fairly excited to go in there, into the container.
26:20
I was definitely a bit hesitant because this was like very new territory for me.
26:27
And I've done men's group, men groups before.
26:30
And I was excited at the same time because I can be around
26:35
other men that are going through the same thing and other than like the pearls of wisdom that you know are shared in these like calls i think just the just just the knowing and just the experience of realizing oh you know i'm not the only one this is like this is a collective thing this is a
27:00
This is bigger than I thought, right?
27:04
Because we feel so isolated often as men, we believe that our problems are so unique and I'm so broken and there's something wrong with me.
27:13
You know, I'm unfixable or whatever, even though I hate that word, but.
27:20
Just the fact that you're around men that have a similar process makes you, makes you feel a hopeful and makes you feel like, okay, there's, there's a solution to this.
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There's a way past this.
27:37
Um, and you know,
27:43
Maybe a little bit of skepticism.
27:44
I want to say, because with everything, today's social media world, you want to be a little bit skeptical because you don't want to.
27:54
There's so many frauds out there and there's so many people who are maybe well-intended, but maybe have a lot of ego around them.
28:04
So I came in with an open mind.
28:06
There's a part of me that always feels like
28:11
I need to shine and excel.
28:12
So I always wanted, there's a part of me that wants to be perfect, that wants to be like, oh, you know, like, I can probably give advice here, or like, you know, part of me felt like, um,
28:25
I'm going to shine here and I'm going to... And there's an immediate need to make it seem like everything is good for me.
28:33
I already know something, which is completely the wrong approach here.
28:37
Because the more you're vulnerable, the more you dive into your darkest, deepest...
28:43
shadow self, the more you're going to heal, the more you're going to.
28:47
So there's, there was a bit of like an ego dissolution for me, where I try, I was consciously trying to, don't try to be the best.
28:57
Don't try to like excel here or try to, you know, be something that you're not really just show up
29:05
as vulnerable as quote unquote broken as, you know, the deepest, darkest outside as possible.
29:16
And some of the exercises were, you know, they weren't easy.
29:21
They weren't, it wasn't easy to sit there and talk about how, you know, you wanna punch a wall in front of other men or saying how lost you are or how deeply unhappy you are in your relationship.
29:36
It's hard.
29:38
Um, but having that community and having that commitment, and that's, that's another one, just having a commitment to show up to a process was so helpful, was eyeopening at times and
29:56
the practices that were given to me, some of them already kind of was doing and, but they reframed it in such a way.
30:04
Like I have a meditation practice.
30:07
I have had a meditation practice for a long time, but shifting it to, you know, spending time in neutral.
30:13
Okay, what does that mean?
30:14
Just let your...
30:16
psyche and mind conscious just be right doesn't and I've done the Vipassana I've done like all of the practices of meditation but allowing yourself just to be with yourself whether if it's through thought or whether it's through contemplation or whether through silence or scanning your body whatever it is allowing yourself to be was huge for me plus the walking I would when I I noticed myself already kind of having a pattern when I was
30:47
noticing myself getting aggravated and becoming really activated, I would want to go for a walk.
30:55
That's the only thing that honestly would just bring me down.
30:58
Just change of scenery, bilateral stimulation.
31:02
I couldn't put these words together.
31:03
I've never like, I couldn't figure out
31:05
Like now I know that, you know, there's this part of us that needs this stimulation, this like, you know, one step after another.
31:13
And it really brings our masculine nervous system down.
31:18
Things like the rational self-pleasure.
31:20
I've been practicing semen retention for years.
31:24
probably several several years now.
31:26
And which is an interesting conversation, by the way, that that comes up.
31:30
Just a few days ago, I had a conversation really vulnerable conversation with my partner where she told me, you know what, when you decided to do semen retention,
31:43
that really shattered my, my, my, um, my felt sense of self because I felt powerless.
31:51
You didn't share that decision with me.
31:53
Right.
31:53
So for me, I was in, in my mind, you know, this is, you know, this is my sexuality.
31:58
It's for me to, you know, it's my decision.
32:01
This has nothing to do with you.
32:02
And I still, you know, we'd still have sex.
32:04
I still want to pleasure you and it still would be about you.
32:08
But for her it was, oh, I've been tricked.
32:12
I've been, you know, no one asked me if I want this.
32:15
Maybe I like, maybe I love seeing your orgasm.
32:20
So it took some sovereignty from her.
32:22
And I've heard this for the first time.
32:25
And I might have heard it before, but never really.
32:28
It was, it was so, there was so many layers between me understanding and seeing her to like, oh, but this is my body and it shouldn't make you feel that way.
32:37
And you're just like, overreacting, whatever.
32:40
Um,
32:42
But several months ago, I wouldn't be able to have that conversation without being triggered and without defensiveness, without correcting her and saying like, you know, your perspective is wrong and here's how I see it and here's this and that.
32:57
Anyway, so going back to the rational self-pleasure.
32:59
So with the semen retention, I always felt.
33:02
like there's a blockage, there's a blockage in my sacral chakra.
33:07
It will boil down, you know, especially when we wouldn't have sex for a long time object objectification ramped up in my I would look at other women, I would, you know, sexualize them.
33:18
And I stopped porn a long, long time ago.
33:20
And that's not a problem, but the repression of that
33:23
energy was it was so stagnant where it just started spewing out into other facets of my life, relationship, anger, career, just these stressors, these deep, deep emotional holdings that I didn't know what to do.
33:39
So I was introduced to that practice.
33:43
And it just gave me a framework, it gave me a container to understand, okay,
33:50
this could be a practice of connecting with myself, you know, and I already had this concept of playing with sexual energy and playing with that deep primitive energy in me, but it was never framed in such a way where, you know, this could be
34:10
This could be a tool for something greater in me.
34:14
This could be a form of understanding something in me somatically that exists.
34:19
And it allowing myself to sit with the pleasure and, and don't get me wrong during the practice with the whole practice of semen retention, it did bring
34:28
a lot of chaos at times because it activated everything.
34:32
It's so activated that everything feels sensitive.
34:35
Emotions are big.
34:37
And I had to sit with that and I had to reevaluate my practice with semen retention and my practice with maybe.
34:46
you know, orgasm is not that bad after all, because there's a bit of a dogma in me.
34:51
I am very disciplined.
34:53
And, you know, when it comes to a career, work, exercise, whatever it is, there's dogma, right?
34:59
And this allowed me to tune in and figure and listen to my body.
35:03
And maybe, maybe ejaculation is fine.
35:06
Maybe that that boundary could stretch and bend and adapt and
35:14
Um, and it, it, it really allowed me to reshape how I see sex, how I see her in this role and how I see, uh, you know, my own relationship with pleasure.
35:29
Right.
35:30
Um, yeah.
35:32
And so coming back to what you asked, I think.
35:36
It just gave me a framework.
35:37
It just gave me a community and gave me the tools and the work doesn't end there.
35:43
I don't want to like one of the biggest, I think the illusion is that you will show up to this container once every Friday, once every week, sorry.
35:53
Um,
35:54
And then you show up and you learn the things and then you're fine.
35:57
But the work stretches all the time.
36:01
It's every day.
36:02
It's every moment.
36:04
It's just present.
36:05
It's there with the smallest to the biggest decisions.
36:09
It's just there all the time.
36:11
And I think if whoever was watching this and wants to jump into this work,
36:16
This is something that's going to follow you in every step.
36:19
This is something that's going to be present with almost literally every moment of your life.
36:26
And the work does not end in those, you know, two, three hours that we meet.
36:32
Those are, but it can, but those, those weekly meetings made it sacred.
36:37
They made it intentional.
36:39
They made it, um,
36:43
they put a framework, they put the structure for, for me to take it into my life.
36:50
So intense.
36:52
Um, yeah, I mean, I think, I think you've covered a lot about like being in the brotherhood and what it gave to you.
37:00
How has your relationship changed?
37:02
Let's go to, to the thing that like so many men come to us because they're in the place you were.
37:09
in the place of being in that trigger, escalation, rupture, withdraw, repair, they start realizing just how excruciating that cycle is and how stuck they are, how it just feels like inevitable.
37:22
I know there was a point in my relationship where I was like,
37:25
man, I'm going to become the best at repair because I don't know.
37:29
This is going to be here forever.
37:30
This is just part of it.
37:31
I even saw a thing from another really well-known therapist that said, 70% of the conflict in a relationship is permanent, so you just have to learn how to repair.
37:40
I'm like, okay.
37:43
But it was destroying my relationship.
37:46
What is it like?
37:47
You communicated it so well.
37:49
What is it like for you now, the two of you?
37:53
Honestly, man, like we have been almost, we almost don't fight as much.
38:03
And the fights that we do have look so different and it never escalates to the places like our fights these days as they occur more rarely and they happen so infrequently.
38:22
And when they inevitably do, which they will, I think fight, you know, it's a natural form.
38:28
Conflict is a natural form of self-expression.
38:32
But when they do, there's so much more listening and there's so much more pause.
38:42
And by the way, you know what?
38:43
I even, I'm going to be completely honest.
38:52
As we got closer and closer to the interview, I was like, man, maybe I should cancel because, you know, I want to be perfect by the time I get here.
39:01
And I want to be like, tell all these stories of how everything is so beautiful now and everything.
39:06
But you know what?
39:07
I'll be completely honest.
39:09
The work is still going.
39:10
It's, I'm still there.
39:11
I'm still showing up.
39:12
And I have, there's days where.
39:15
where it doesn't feel good.
39:17
It does not erupt, it does not explode, it does not become chaotic, it doesn't get aggressive.
39:26
But there's still days where I'm like, you know what?
39:28
This is fucking hard.
39:30
This is brutal.
39:31
The work is still going.
39:34
And so I overcame this and I wanted to come here and just to share my personal experience as imperfect as it may be.
39:42
And I'm still in this process.
39:44
And I think it's gonna be, I'm gonna be in this process for a long time.
39:47
And it does get better.
39:50
Like I'm so much more capable of being able to do it.
39:54
feeling all of the stuff in my body and I'm pointing my solar plexus and sacral regions because that's where I feel it.
40:02
It's just a buildup of pressure.
40:04
You and I are so similar.
40:07
I believe that most men are just like, it's all here.
40:12
It's like a choking feeling, but here.
40:14
Yeah, pressure.
40:16
Totally.
40:16
Yeah, pressure.
40:17
Fire burning inside your abdomen.
40:20
And like a squeezing almost.
40:23
Absolutely.
40:25
And you know what?
40:27
It's still there.
40:28
But I feel so much safer now.
40:31
I feel so much...
40:33
there's less of the need to pull away.
40:37
It feels a lot more natural to sit there and experience that and see that as a cue of information rather than a thing to run away from or something that shouldn't happen.
40:51
Therefore, something's wrong, the situation is bad, therefore I have to react.
40:56
So I still get that feeling.
40:59
And maybe not to that intensity because it is trainable.
41:02
Like it's like you can train yourself to, like I took on the practice of one of the things that I've heard you doing is reminding yourself you're safe.
41:12
And that goes so long.
41:14
That plus breathing, honestly, it's almost like a mental trigger now.
41:19
I notice this is coming up.
41:21
I immediately go into breathing.
41:23
I breathe, I breathe and I,
41:25
Inhale, exhale, inhale, exhale.
41:27
And in the beginning, it was so hard, but now it's automatic.
41:31
So I breathe and I regulate and it's not suppressed.
41:36
And I think you've stressed this enough in your podcast and in the container.
41:40
It's not suppression.
41:41
The feeling is there.
41:43
I'm feeling it.
41:43
I'm, I'm for sure feeling it, but I'm aware of it.
41:48
I'm aware of it and I'm not letting it drive.
41:51
So in these moments where she brings something to me,
41:56
I'm able to pause, I'm able to slow down, I'm able to breathe, I'm able to notice, I can listen to her, I can allow her to express her need, concern, feeling, whatever it is.
42:12
And in, in, you know, whenever it's available, I'm also able to be curious and I'm also able to ask questions and I'm also able to pause and, you know, see her, you know, one of the things I realized, and I didn't share that in the container, but I've realized how when she's expressing this, this deep grief to me and when she's crying or she's expressing
42:36
how often I wouldn't look in her eyes like I would immediately like there's no connection they're like physically like the eyes are almost like a window to the soul and I wouldn't look there because that's too painful it's too painful in my own body so I would not even look in her eyes I wouldn't see her crying I wouldn't see her expressing this emotion so I remember there was a focal point where
43:01
I clocked that and I looked at her and I was filled with what usually was just like a sense of anger and need for defensiveness was just replaced.
43:10
But the sadness, oh my God, I am hurting her.
43:15
I am creating so much pain in her existence.
43:21
How, like the last thing I want to do right now is to create more.
43:25
So to your question, I just listen more and I'm much more contained and I'm much more able to show up.
43:37
in a much more collected and regulated way.
43:43
And our sex life, you know, and it's our sex life has been.
43:46
That's this next.
43:48
Like our.
43:49
Because the reason I was going to bring this up is because you said we don't fight anymore and we rarely have conflict.
43:54
And when we do it so much easier, I've had people reflect to me.
43:58
Well, like, because I tell people Katie and I really don't fight.
44:01
And then they say, oh, well, that just means the passion's out of your relationship.
44:04
And I'm like, no, it really isn't.
44:07
How's it for you?
44:09
So that's a good question because I think, I think inevitably and, you know, passion and the relationship could inevitably, I think this is my personal take.
44:19
I think we fight because we need passion.
44:23
So if passion is not expressed through sex, it's expressed in other ways.
44:28
We need to be seen, heard, felt in the,
44:32
some sort of way.
44:34
So whether if it's in conflict or really passionate sex, it's, it's going to be, it's going to come out.
44:42
So to be honest, our sex life, because of all the fighting and all the rupture, our trust or her trust in me have been ruptured, has been ruptured.
44:53
And as we went through this process, I felt her opening up and our sex life has been,
45:01
been better.
45:02
It's still, I want to be honest, during the process, it was not like, you know, oh, I started practicing containment, she jumped on me, and we started having all this sex, because it wasn't, you know, and I've heard...
45:15
you know, people, other men in the container were like, you know, I was able to listen to her and we had sex, you know, five times this week and whatever.
45:22
This wasn't the case for me.
45:24
It was not that quick because, because the, you know, the level of hurt and mistrust that was between us was very deep and her body didn't feel like I was safe.
45:36
And so we had quite a bit of time that we haven't had sex.
45:39
We had to
45:42
And then I think only like yesterday, right?
45:47
We had, for the first time, I think we were able to really be with one another.
45:53
And she was able to open her body up to me.
45:56
And it's like everything, all of the condensed energy just went away and it took her time.
46:06
It took her time to trust me.
46:08
But I felt her opening up and I felt her, the polarity, you know, becoming stronger and stronger.
46:16
Um, and then when we do have sex, I feel her trusting again.
46:22
I feel how she likes being with me in the same room.
46:28
Cause there were moments where, you know, there's so much rupture that you start becoming roommates.
46:34
Yeah.
46:34
Uh, and we had to go through all this turmoil.
46:38
of all this sediment that kind of like was created through a long period of like fighting and arguing.
46:44
Yeah, our dynamics has have changed and it is significantly, there's more understanding, there's more, hopefully more sex to come and there's just more vulnerability and trust.
46:58
And, you know, when I stopped, I think like a lot of men, we
47:04
we have this like, need to objectify and it's not conscious, not malevolent.
47:09
It's not, you know, you don't
47:12
you don't want to hurt other women, but you see a woman on the street and you like what you're seeing.
47:17
There's a mini like compulsive need to like sexualize.
47:21
And I've been trying to practice that.
47:23
And when it doesn't come with sex in my relationship, it feels repressed sometimes.
47:28
So if I don't get it from my relationship and I don't get it from the external world, that brings in more repression.
47:36
But yeah, it's something I'm still kind of navigating.
47:39
And when we do have sex and the sex is wonderful and passionate and we're both there, I don't actually feel the need to objectify.
47:48
I don't feel the need to be drawn to other women.
47:50
I don't feel like I need to look at other women as sexual objects.
47:58
Yeah, yeah, I think I think that's, that's kind of like, I think I want to stress this enough, the work is still going like my need to like be perfect and sit here and tell everyone who's listening to this that, you know, I'm past it.
48:13
And you know, I did this thing.
48:14
And now I'm over it.
48:15
No, I'm not.
48:16
It's it's an ongoing thing.
48:18
But I, if you push through, if you're able to give this a chance, if you're able to really allow yourself to be
48:26
immersed in this process, it might not feel like things are moving.
48:31
But if you trust, if you trust that this will work, you'll start seeing it.
48:36
And for me, it was probably after a month, probably after like, it took some time for me to start noticing things.
48:44
Um, but it does work.
48:47
It works this, the practice and everyone's going to have different, uh,
48:54
different preferences to some of the practices, you know, some more like one practice over the other and whatever works for you.
49:01
But even if you incorporate just a few of these and make it your own, this could change your relationship with yourself, with your partner, with the world.
49:12
And, um, you know, last thing I want to say is that.
49:17
I think the masculine is so lost in today's world, especially, you know, I've seen the Netflix, um, um, uh, documentary about the red pill, um, menosphere.
49:34
I was, I was shocked, man.
49:36
Like, honestly, it's, and, and.
49:41
whatever comes to me is not anger.
49:42
It comes like grief.
49:44
Oh man, all these men are so lost that they were sold all these lies.
49:50
And we have leaders around the world that care about the wrong things.
49:56
And it's all about me, me, me, you know, like we have all these wars around the world about because of men that don't contain, don't listen.
50:06
And they only care about
50:09
You know, we're just like children, you know, we like to think of the women are the emotional ones, but men are so emotional.
50:16
Like we're so emotional and we don't even know it.
50:19
Like we're sometimes, sometimes just walking children.
50:24
Um, yeah.
50:25
And I think the more, the more we have this word work spread into more and more men around the world, I think we're going to have a better world.
50:34
I think we're going to have.
50:36
kinder, more compassionate, stronger leadership.
50:41
We're just going to have all, we're just going to have just a better world.
50:48
And instead of demonizing women like the menosphere does
50:55
And all of the, you know, the women had so many, this opened up my eyes, this work, how, you know, how the femme, how much struggle did the feminine have, and my partner is very feminist, and she was always kind of
51:10
you know, sharing this message with me as well, but I wasn't as susceptible to it before this work.
51:17
But I just realized how much damage has been done to the feminine.
51:21
If we can protect the feminine and allow it to grow and nourish it, instead of trying to suppress it, instead of trying to quiet it down, if we can, if we can allow the feminine to grow and we protect them,
51:41
I think we're just going to have a much kinder world to women and men all together.
51:47
Brother, I can't think of a better place to wrap this up, man.
51:52
I agree.
51:53
I agree.
51:54
And so much of the way that you expressed yourself and shared, like I said several times, was so relatable.
52:00
And I just want to thank you, man.
52:02
Thank you for doing the work.
52:05
You know, getting into the container is one thing, but when men get results like you have, and I can feel it just in your energy from when we met in your interview to now, like what a radical shift there is.
52:17
I mean, I'm not laughing at you.
52:19
I'm kind of giggling because I remember you on your interview and thinking, and like now I'm like, man, it's two completely different energies.
52:27
I feel it, man.
52:28
I feel like a different person.
52:30
I, it was like night and day before when I, before I started and where I'm at now.
52:36
And I just want to stress this enough.
52:37
I'm still a work in progress and I probably will be for many years to come.
52:43
But I feel very grateful to be a part of this and, you know, I, whenever I hear
52:50
a man having these issues, I am so quick to like, Hey, here, there's this work that's so unconventional.
52:56
There's something you've never, and you're probably going to be so, um, you're
53:04
you're probably not gonna believe it or you're gonna be skeptical.
53:08
But I try to share this work.
53:11
Just the other day, my partner was talking to a friend.
53:14
She told me that her partner was in the exact same place where I was.
53:18
And I told her like, hey, here's this Instagram.
53:21
There's this guy, Alex, and there's this masculine containment.
53:24
And share it with him and he's probably gonna roll his eyes and he's gonna mistrust this work or he's gonna be skeptical.
53:33
If he could pull through the initial resistance, he can find himself in a completely different way, in a completely different body and a pretty different relationship.
53:47
Thank you, Tomer.
53:48
Tomer.
53:48
I knew I was going to do it once.
53:50
Well, good.
53:52
So, Tomer, thank you, brother.
53:54
Thank you for sharing.
53:55
Thank you for doing the work.
53:56
Thank you for going so deep.
53:58
I can feel like what you did for yourself, what you did for your relationship, what you did for the people around you, for the world around you.
54:04
And if you're watching this interview and you've found some of this as relatable as I have and you know you're stuck in a pattern or you feel some of these issues of feeling when your performance is questioned, you get super defensive, you're reactive, unsafe, want to defend.
54:23
You know, all these things are learned behaviors, and anything that's learned can be relearned.
54:28
Anything that's wired into the nervous system can be rewired, and that's the work we do in the Brotherhood.
54:33
So if you're interested, navigate to thebrotherhoodsociety.com.
54:37
There will be a link down below.
54:39
We'd be honored to walk this path with you.
54:41
I lead the container, but I'm learning right along with you, and this is work I'll be doing for the rest of my life.
54:46
thebrotherhoodsociety.com.
54:48
Do me a favor, subscribe, give us a like.
54:51
We help share this, get this out there.
54:53
There's a bunch of AI stuff out there that is not helping people.
54:57
Share this real vulnerable human connection with somebody you love, someone you care about.
55:02
Thanks for being here today.
55:03
Thank you.