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Performance Dietitian Jessica Spendlove on Burnout and Recovery · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Jess Spend Love is a leading voice on well-being and high performance.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Becoming a top performer is about talent, drive, and ambition.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: But staying a high performer is about consistency, habits, and non-negotiables, as we all know.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, her journey began as an elite athlete, where she became a state and national swimming champion across breaststroke, butterfly, and individual medley.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: Before moving into the corporate arena, she spent over a decade at the forefront of elite sport, working with seven professional teams, Olympic medalists, world champions, premiership winning sides, and the special forces command.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Today, Jess works with progressive leaders and organizations to embed well-being as their performance edge.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: She focuses on optimizing energy, resilience, stress management, and burnout prevention, something that I think most of us can relate to.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm looking forward to chatting to her.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: The mum of one says it's been quite an interesting journey, and she's not just studied well-being and high performance, she's actually lived it.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: So from her early years as an elite athlete to a supporting top performing in business, sport, and the military, she's now navigating life as a new mum and understands the juggle and the struggle.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: So her mission is to help you and your team succeed, not at the cost of your health, but because of it.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm thrilled to have Jess join me on the What I've Learned podcast.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me, Deborah.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Absolute pleasure.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: So you have an interesting trajectory, and clearly you have a lot of professional experience in the sports arena.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us a little bit about where you began and how this journey has taken you into a different space.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think starting where I am now, I what I say is I coach, speak, and write about sustainable high performance.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: But how I ended up doing this is particularly from my 15-year career as a performance dietitian, deep in elite sport, you know, seven professional teams.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Some of the teams I was with for eight years, I was with the Cornella Sharks and the GWS Giants for eight years or eight seasons each, Sydney King for five years.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I was really deep in elite sport, doing a lot of those teams at the same time, which probably led to my own reckoning in different ways.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then I had different Olympic athletes and clients as well.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: But all of that really was the catalyst because I was a very high-level junior athlete.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: I did a lot of sport, but swimming ended up being the main one.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: And swimming is a brutal sport.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you're doing two hours before school, two hours after school.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: I was basically leaving the house at 4:30 and getting home at 8:30.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I went to see a sports dietitian.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: So that was the catalyst that set me on the initial trajectory.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then I guess a few things that probably happened to me personally when I was achieving all the things that little 15-year-old Jess dreamt of dreaming, then evolved me into this phase as well.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I've interviewed Michael Klim, who I absolutely loved.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: He was really, really interesting talking about the swimming space, the elite athlete space, which is obviously extremely taxing, extremely demanding, very rewarding.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, my understanding is, and as you would know, he's he had a severe neurological response to a whole range of things.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: One could argue whether it was derivative of the pressures he was under.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: Who knows?
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: We don't know how the body works.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: But I think many elite athletes have talked about this notion that their body just screams and says, I can't do this anymore.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: Is this something that happened to you?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: And if so, when and how did this happen?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you know, I think it comes with the territory whenever you're pushing the extreme, and and definitely in the elite athlete space, but honestly, we're seeing this in the corporate, we're seeing it in any industry.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: Anyone who's operating in a high pressure industry, pushing the extreme, pushing their limits, it can come with a consequence.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, despite making a career out of helping elite athletes sustainably perform at their best, you know, and preaching about fueling and recovery and recovery being the performance accelerator and all of the things, there I was, adding another team, building a business, working seven days a week, 10 to 12 hours a day, flying around the country.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, that was going to come to a stop.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: Whether I, you know, had the understanding that it was going to come to a stop or whether I was forced.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: And the signs were there.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: And there was definitely the little messages and the memos and then the pushes and the pulls.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: But ultimately it came with a very loud, you know, halted stop because I became really unwell, burnt out.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: Look, part of it was COVID.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: But COVID was the catalyst of the last 10 years of my professional career, but probably my entire life.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: Because what being a nine and 10-year-old, leaving the house at 4:30 a.m.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: and getting home at 8:30, what that taught me or the narrative it told me at the time was I was the exception to the rule.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: My capacity was greater.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I do see this a lot with high performers across industries.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, the reality is it's not a matter of if but when things will come crashing down.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so despite knowing this and helping elite athletes and high performers in different industries, there I was talking the talk, but not walking it.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: And now I walked the talk.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: But uh it took a crisis, it took a personal health crisis for me to wake up.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I suppose the the message there is no one is immune, no matter how capable, extraordinary, committed, dedicated.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think that's nature or nurture?
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think that's a fundamental capacity?
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like some people have that capacity to go, I've reached my limit.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to turn down the dial and the volume because it's no longer sustainable.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: Other people, such as yourself, have to wait till you hit a wall or a health crisis.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think that's something that's enculturated, that you're surrounded by a culture that facilitates or fosters that?
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you think you just grew up believing that you could push yourself to that level?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, I don't think I'm the exception at all.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, there's a lot of, you know, I I know you've had people on here even sharing their own kind of similar experiences.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's both.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think you have to be wired a certain way.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: And you're probably also in environments where you're thriving.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's for me that was the dream and the goal.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I was absolutely not going to say no to any opportunity.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, the better you are at your job, you either get loaded with more things or you get better opportunities.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: And in my instance, it came in the form of more teams, you know, another team.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, I could fit that in.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like I remember my calendar at one point.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: I had a mentor say, you have literally no white space.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, it was like it's all color-coded, and I'm here and I'm there.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I can only imagine like the adrenaline and the cortisol and the way that I'd been operating.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so I do think it's a combination of both.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I do think though, times, you know, that the tide is turning.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: I do think, you know, I'm like a middle to older millennial.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I do think what I'm seeing and hearing, thank goodness, is that people maybe five, 10, 15 years younger than me are starting to kind of wake up.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: And hopefully they won't get themselves in this position.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: But my kind of generation was definitely like work hard.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the harder you work, the more you get saved for it.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: Very, very similar.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: And my generation is probably a little older than yours, but I'm actually listening to, for example, my children's generation, and they're very much reflecting on life work balance.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: However, there's this discussion which I think is important to reflect on, which is, you know, you have to climb the mountain, you have to, it's very hard to get to the top because there are a lot of people trying to do it, whatever that industry is.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: So there's no illusion that you, you know, there's no shortcut, I think we would agree.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: The question is, are you going to get there happier with with more energy reserves and with capacity for sustainability by managing that time, energy, and space better, which is what you're talking about.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it is a constant struggle for people that want to be exceptional in whatever they do, whether it's law or medicine or sport or whatever capacity.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think there is a discussion around that, and there's a lot more of a discussion around that.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: But it is still very the jury's out a little bit because people still have to work really, really hard to thrive and survive in this world right now.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and the way, you know, if I had my time again, would I change it?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: I probably wouldn't change all that much.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: I just wish I would have woken up sooner.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the thing with that is you can do it for a season.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: But the thing is, a lot of people do it for a season, and then that becomes just the way they operate.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that was the mistake.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so I do believe, yes, to maybe do exceptional things, you maybe do need to do some things that other people aren't willing to do.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: But how long are you willing to do that for?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: And just being more informed and aware of that.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: And there's definitely strategies I could have put in place around recovery because you know I was eating well and I was sleeping well and I was exercising.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not that that all went out the window, but the thing missing for me was the recovery, the downregulation.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so I do believe for a season of time, yeah, but just it can't, that's just how you operate.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a really good point.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, really, what you're saying is at any journey that you take, you can still be exceptional, but you have to know that the time out is just as valuable as the time on.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that is a really difficult thing for people to apply to their lives.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because, of course, you know, with whatever that work slate is, or that that race, or that, as you say, the football or whatever it is that you're dealing with, you know, the nobody has a lot of tolerance for that stuff.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: They're like, I don't care if you're sick, run down, whatever your problem is, deal and get back on the field or get back in the into training, or, you know, get back into the office or whatever it is.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Even with the work from home thing, which is another discussion, it is a really interesting area that I think we need to somehow.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: The question is, do we need to turn it hard left in terms of dialing it down to use the, I suppose, the bike reference?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking, you know, when you're on the bike and you're doing if I'm doing the gears down.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, turn the gears down, but then you also risk you don't want to go downhill, literally.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: So are you finding the people that you're working with?
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, how has it applied to you?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: How have you done, how have you found this recalibration, if you have?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: I do find the recovery.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I look at the elite athletes and the special operations, which is the other kind of high pressure environment I work in.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: And look, it's different because it's very institutionalized, you know, they've got different specialties, but the thing that they actually do very well is recovery.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: It is literally as important as the as the training.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so when we come over to the corporate industry or just the general population, that is the piece that I'd say 10%, you know, have nailed.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't just make that number up when I survey groups that I speak to, which often tend to be like leaders or senior leaders, that is the number that comes out.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: 10% really understand how important it is in terms of it's a performance accelerator, even less of being strategic about it.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a part of that is it feels too hard.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: It feels like it's a reward for hard work, or they just don't understand how they're fitting it into their day.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I think a big piece of it is what actually is recovery, which is something I'm talking a lot about.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, in the simplest form, it's intentional stimulant free time.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: And where we actually get the most return on investment or biggest bang for buck is the daily, and I call them brain breaks, but the daily micro breaks that we can take a couple of times each day, where we can step away from screen, step away from stimulation, and actually just reset a little bit.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so whether that's a a walk around the block without your phone, without a podcast, you know, I love walking and podcasting, but maybe do that in the morning, but then across the day when you actually need to reduce your stress response, which what that means is bring your heart rate down, bring your stress hormones down, reset a little bit, maybe go for a 10-minute walk around the block without it.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: Or if you don't have 10 minutes or you're telling yourself that, take two minutes and make a herbal tea and do some breath work for a minute or two.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: It can be as small as that, but consistently and intentionally a few times each day.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: And the powerful thing about that is it downregulates us, but it is a moment of recovery.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then I have people say, yes, but then I have all of the thoughts.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, well, two things.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: One, great, because if you're not having the thoughts then, you're having them when you get into bed or at 2 a.m.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: when you're waking up.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: Or two, great, that's an invitation to practice to be a little bit more mindful.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you need to listen to something, pop something in and listen to like a five-minute meditation or a breath work and just have these micro moments, these brain breaks as a starting point on your recovery journey as such.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then in the in the book, I kind of talk about building your recovery rhythm, which is really looking at what do you do daily, weekly, quarterly, and yearly to get ahead.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because what most people are doing, and I used to do, we take the recovery when we're burnt out.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're taking the burnout holiday.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: What I'm inviting people to do is to take the recovery before you need it, because that actually expands your capacity and you get through more.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's really working smarter, not harder, basically.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, I think the other thing is that I think a lot of people are up against a culture that's still very much, particularly in the corporate sector, from people that I've interviewed and people that I've met, there's a very strong expectation still.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, really that culture of slog it out as long as you can, be available all the time, be on tap, don't, don't sort of disconnect it.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: We know this is a discussion and a lot of people are trying to actually work on this, but it's still prevalent.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if I look at some of the young, you know, 20s, 30-year-olds driving through, you know, trying to get through the corporate ladder and build their careers, they're still expected to be there nonstop, to be on demand to sustain the stress and the expectation.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: So there is a cultural issue too.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: And whether that changes, I'm not sure.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: It seems to be changing somewhat.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Is that your your observation?
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: It is, it's slow.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this is an in an ingrained problem.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: And there is a lot of talking the talk, but not walking the talk.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're really lucky to work in a workplace where your manager or your leader embodies this, well, like amazing.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: My hope is that more leaders start to walk the talk.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: And there's white papers and reports now showing this that that leaders' well-being is is the number one driver of organizational well-being and performance.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, it's going to take time.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm hearing more of it, I'm seeing more of it, but it's definitely not the way that we're operating.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: I do think five or 10 years' time, it will be a lot better.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: My hope is that it'll be a lot better.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's just the people reaching out and engaging me, and that gives me that sense.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: But I guess the invitation is there to people, where possible, what boundary can you draw?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: Or what can you do within your day to start to create this?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: I wish it wasn't being led by the individual.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: I wish it was being led by the top-down.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: I wish it was being created from an environment perspective, because environment is everything.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: When you've got the environment that can support the behavior.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: But in the meantime, if if we can at least try and upskill in ways that fit people's life, that feels practical and relatable and enjoyable, then that can hopefully just make shifts in individuals' lives until the tide turns a bit more.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a good point.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: And you've worked with a lot of Olympians and you've worked with special forces and people who are really, you know, the expectation, like I'll sometimes say I've got a friend of mine who's a hard-working, very hard-working lawyer.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, well, you're not a heart surgeon.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like you need to keep perspective.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: Just, you know, take a breath.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, yeah, but you know, this particular family, it's a custody battle.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I understand there's like major pressure to deliver on those very demanding court appearances and prep and all, like, I understand there is so much pressure in the reality of expectation, but by the industry that they're in, for example.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: How have you found what have you learned watching some of these, for example, elite forces who, you know, it could it can be a bit of a life and death responsibility?
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think, you know, you just raised a really important point.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: I used to have that narrative.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: Being available makes me better at my job.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I said that was why I got, why I got the team and why I got the next team and the next one and and and all of the high-profile clients, you know, that was the narrative.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: But that was just because I allowed that.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: And when I then started to kind of recalibrate on that, I think boundaries are an interesting one if we're talking, you know, accessibility and availability, because we create the conditions.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: And when you communicate to your clients that whatever those conditions are, then then that is also the expectation.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I do get this.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: I I ran a luncheon with some senior women in in leadership in in a particular industry the other week.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: And some are more office and some are more forward-facing.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: And this was a discussion, the client-facing ones.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I always say, like it's it, you know your life better than than what I do, but it's an invitation for you to think where can I start to create a boundary just to put some four walls around it?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you're currently taking calls 24-7, can you put a cutoff of 10 p.m.?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and then can you edge it to 8 p.m.?
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what's going to be practical, but you've got to think about yourself.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: And as you've said, you know, you have an important role.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people have important roles, but but you're not a brain surgeon or a heart surgeon.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: So where can you just start to create a little bit of a boundary?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like for me, I took my emails off my phone for a really long time because I just couldn't break that cycle of checking them.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: And now I'm in the middle of the media around the book and I've I've added it back on.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: But just having that separation for quite a long time has reduced, you know, my habits around that a little bit.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I think the invitation is where can you draw a boundary?
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, how scary was that taking your emails off?
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's so funny when I listen to you, I just think, how would I go?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, because in some ways, the emails on my phone facilitate my freedom too, because it allows me to be wherever I need to be.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then if an email comes in, so that takes a lot of in a way courage, which is quite surreal when we think about it.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because when I was, you know, younger, there were no emails.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there was no phone.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so interesting.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hence, I suppose a lot of these shows and a lot of the next generation are craving the 80s and that whole era where you just went out and you didn't have to think and you left work and you didn't have to think.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: It was a, you know, it's very interesting to me that it's something we just take for granted and we've become so codependent on it.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it takes a lot of courage.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: Did you find that challenging?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Or once you'd done it, you felt better?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: No, it was it was challenging.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't want you to think my social media habits are, you know, I'm some some angel, you know, Instagram.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to delete Instagram, but I, you know, for the stories.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: But I just found for me it created a boundary.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: And and look, there were times where I was still checking my email kind of on my phone, yeah, and I was having to log in.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: But that just that extra step was at least a circuit breaker for the for when I was doing it out of habit rather than necessity.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: I I get that.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's quite an interesting space.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: But it also, I mean, as I say, there's always the pluses and the minus.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, we want to be able to excel, to thrive, and to be there for our clients or for our people.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that is really important, but at the same time trying to find space.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're a young mum, as you were saying, and or I was reading about that.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm also a mother of three, and they're now older.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: But I value the fact that I made the decision to find that balance because that time goes.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like you don't realize you miss that.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: You're either there at the school concert or whatever it is, which takes a deep breath to say, Well, I'm gonna have to leave work earlier, I'm gonna have to be adapt to that interview or whatever it is that is your space, because it is a window of time that is very precious.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it would be a shame to not have that because you have a work meeting, which, to be honest, five or ten years later doesn't matter.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the other thing is there's there's an element of Self-importance that comes with all of this approach too.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the approach of, well, if I'm not at the meeting and if I miss the meeting or if I it's not in the scheme of life, and it's something retrospectively that I reflect on and I try and guide people who are younger than me to say, listen, what feels like the biggest thing in the world really isn't as big as you think.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: Or that work relationship, if they don't understand that you have another requirement, be it your husband or your child, then that relationship is somewhat problematic.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: So are you seeing there be a little more accommodation and are you finding that for yourself?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: Some workplaces, yes.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: I feel again, we're at this inflection point.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: There's some workplaces that are really understanding and flexible and yeah, feeling like they're accommodating.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'm also seeing and hearing a lot of, you know, very traditional workplaces.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it's and understandably that is a huge factor for people for recruiting and wanting to look around.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, for me, I think not that I would wish severe burnout and health issues on anyone, but that fast-tracked me looking at the next evolution of my career before I had a baby.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, to be honest, if we'd have met five years ago and you said, What are two things you'll never do?
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: I probably would have said, I'll never write a book and I'll never have a baby.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like it just wasn't.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it's now I'm just so grateful for both.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I do, for me right now, the way I work, I guess, largely working for myself and speaking to groups or coaching or working with organizations.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's a little bit dependent on, you know, where I am.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes there's travel for off-sites or speaking gigs, etc.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, I constantly check in, I ask myself a question will I look back and think I've worked too much?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I worked, I didn't really have much maternity leave.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: It just was the way it happened with a few really amazing opportunities, of course, you know, very soon after.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you don't know what you don't know.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I I said yes.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, you know, I got to work at home and for four or five months she was just in a little bouncer and stuff anyway.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, I was working and she was here and her nan or whoever was here.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: And and so I feel like I I got the best of both worlds.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, that is it's a hybrid approach.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: And one I think, particularly as a woman, the questions are somewhat different, if I'm totally honest.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: You just cannot ignore the fact that as a woman, those choices and those questions are different to a male.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: It just is, and it doesn't matter how you cut it, it is just the way the world is, and it's a blessing because we get to do both.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: But challenge the challenge for women is to excel in their area of expertise.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: While if they want family, how they navigate that, how they look after themselves in the process.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that conversation is happening a lot, and thank goodness, because the cost is often to the mum or the wife or the working woman who's at the leadership, the top of her game, trying to do it all.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I always say you can do it all, but not all at once.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's quite challenging.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: You have to find that, which it sounds like you're finding that sweet spot.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that's part of what you do is you go in and facilitate.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: But it is a different, I think it is a just slightly different conversation for women in leadership versus definitely.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: And we're seeing it, you know, there's a there's a lot of gaps out there, but there is a well-being gap.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're seeing women at the most pivotal point of their career, they're also potentially the sandwich generation, they're carrying the mental load, there's all the hormonal shifts, which all of these things are now getting airtime, yeah.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: Which thank goodness, you know, the the load of all of the thousands of WhatsApp groups and the coordinate, like there's so much happening at that point in time.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: And 100%, I think, women in the corporate world.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, my hope is to bring, again, similarly, like practical strategies that at least can help the individual in the moment.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: And look, my goal, and there's a few people I think doing really great work in this space, you know, the the ideal is then to work with the team or the organization to then again create the policy or the environment or the structure that then also supports the workers and particularly the women in leadership to be able to have the flexibility to still excel and be exceptional at their career, but also recognize all of these other factors going on.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I'm seeing the tide slowly turning, but we're at the start.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think inflection point is a very good description.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: So your book for the long run is available through bookstores and on your Instagram link, I'm assuming.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: And hopefully it will give people an insight into some of the tips that you've applied to your own life, but hopefully they can apply to theirs.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I thank you so much for joining us on the What I've Learned podcast.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's been really interesting, and I'm sure our listeners will enjoy hearing your views and tapping your wisdom.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me, Um.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's been a great conversation.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: I've really enjoyed it.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you for joining us on the What I've Learned podcast.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you enjoyed that interview because we are so privileged to have a wonderful platform where guests come on and share lessons learned, rivers crossed, mountains climbed.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: We love our shared humanity, and we are so grateful to have such a beautiful community.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: So remember to stay curious, kind, and connected, and we'll see you next time at the What Up Clint Podcast.