Latest / It’s All Your Fault: High Conflict People / Dealing with Drama: Histrionic High Conflict People
Transcript
- Megan Hunter: Welcome to It's All Your Fault! on TruStory FM, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most damaging humans, people with high conflict personalities. I'm Megan Hunter and I'm here with my co-host, Bill Eddy. Bill Eddy: Hi, everybody. Megan Hunter: We're the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California. In today's episode, we are going to talk about histrionic high conflict people, which is the third in our series on The Five Types of People Who Can Ruin Your Life. But first, we have a few are quick reminders. Here's the deal, we'd love to hear from you. Have you dealt with a high conflict situation, been blamed, experienced violence or abuse from an HCP, or maybe you simply dread seeing that person again, but you probably have to tonight at home or tomorrow at work, or maybe the person across the street? Send us your questions and we just might discuss them on the show. Megan Hunter: You can submit them by clicking the submit a question button at our website, highconflictinstitute.com/podcast. Emailing us at podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or dropping us a note on any of our socials. You can find all the show notes and links at highconflictinstitute.com/podcast as well. Make sure you subscribe, rate and review, and please tell all your friends about us. Telling just one person that you like the show and where they can find it is the best way you can help us out and really, help more people learn how to us high conflict people. We appreciate you so very much, and now, on with the show. In this episode, we continue talking about the five types of people who can ruin your life. In the previous two episodes, we talked about narcissistic and anti-social HCPs, just an acronym for high conflict people. In this episode, we are going to talk about hystrionic HCPs. Megan Hunter: On hearing the term 'histrionic' an immediate image of a woman in hysterics comes to mind for most people, but I'm not sure that most of us know that it's actually a personality disorder, one that is not clearly understood. We think of histrionic as someone with a lot of theatrics and drama, but it is oh, so much more. Personally, it took a few years for me to begin to identify histrionic behaviors, mostly because I was looking specifically for drama and really didn't know the other signs, until that is I met someone who left me feeling exhausted beyond it, exhaustion from their attention- seeking behavior. What I mean by that is the need to be involved in every conversation, even if it's not about them or doesn't include them, also their inability to remain quiet, there's just the constant interruptions. Maybe most importantly, there just seems to be no comprehension that there's anyone else in the world besides them, and no one else has any needs just them, just their needs. So Bill, let's dive in. What is histrionic personality disorder? Bill Eddy: Well, histrionic personality disorder is one of the 10 personality disorders in the Diagnostic Manual for Mental Health Professionals. But as we talk in this podcast, we want to make clear we're not talking about everybody with this personality; we're talking about people who also have high conflict personalities, which means they have targets of blame. So there's many people that have histrionic traits who don't have targets of blame and they don't usually bother other people in the same way that the ones with targets of blame do. Like you said, Megan, there's more to it than they just want to be the center of attention. But that's one of the biggest characteristics of the personality disorder is drive to be center of attention, being very dramatic, superficial speech, very emotional speech, "I'm being horribly abused." "Well, can you be more specific?" "Well, the other per person is just totally hostile towards me." Bill Eddy: "Well, can you be specific?" They really have a hard time being specific. Now, sometimes they've been injured by somebody. They may be a victim of domestic violence, for example, but many times they feel like a victim, but they're really not. They may actually be more of a perpetrator of abusive behavior to other people. In general, it's these characteristics of being driven to be center of attention, being very distracting, very emotional, very dramatic, often exaggerated, sometimes false allegations, accusatory, that's the histrionic HCP is often very accusatory and very public about it, in some cases. So don't be surprised if suddenly somebody's telling everybody else that you're the most horrible person in the world, and that might be histrionic HCP that you're dealing with. Megan Hunter: They would make that public because of the attention-seeking behavior? Bill Eddy: Yes. In other words, "Here's a way to get attention. I'm going to blame Bill for being a rotten person and that'll get me a lot of attention." That's the kind of thinking, and it's not real conscious and that's, I'd want to add having a lot of empathy for these folks because they don't really understand what they're doing, but still setting limits. You can have empathy and set limits on the inappropriate behavior they often have. Megan Hunter: Yeah, you must have empathy and must set limits. It's a one-two combination in order to have a successful relationship or manage the relationship. Now, Bill, you mentioned a superficial speech. I think a lot of people don't really know what that is. Can you give us a little insight? Bill Eddy: Well, it's that talking about, "Oh, what happened yesterday to me, it was so horrible. You won't believe, people were just so rude to me. They told me I had to stop talking, that I was interrupting them. That was so rude of them." You get that kind of the drama, the superficial, and also the lack of awareness, how they're affecting other people. All five of these high conflict personalities that we're talking about really are interpersonal disorders and so there's somebody at the other end that's getting the impact of this. so it really can be very shocking, very frightening, very distracting, and in cases of public humiliation, it can really be hurtful to your reputation. Megan Hunter: I've heard some people who seem to have this impressionistic, superficial speech and it hearkens back to the 1980s, the Valley girl type of talk where it's, "Oh, my gosh. Oh, la, la," would you say that's associated with this, or maybe? Bill Eddy: It could be. It feels exaggerated. Now, they're not necessarily HCP. So like a lot of the Valley girls were more, I would say, irritating because living in California, I did run into a few, but more just irritating because of the drama, but not hostile or malicious. It's the ones that really target people with their drama and try to harm people's, mostly relationships. It's a lot about relationships and harming people's reputation, that can really hurt. What's interesting is this is something you'd probably recognize in a lot of teenagers, but it's not a personality disorder when they're an adolescent, because it's often just a phase or something temporary. Once they're adults, if they're stuck in a pattern of this drama, a drive to be center of attention and exaggeration and even humiliation of others, that's when you're looking at possibly a personality disorder. Megan Hunter: Okay. So we've talked about each of the five types of high conflict personalities. Having a fear-driven personality, for example, the narcissistic HCP is, has a fear of feeling or being seen as inferior. The anti-social sociopath personality has a fear of feeling or being dominated. So what is the histrionic fear? Bill Eddy: It's really being ignored that they really feel desperate for attention and in a way it's like, "I'll die if I'm not the center of attention," and I've seen people like this. You can just see them fidgeting when other people are the center of attention. Suddenly, they have to say, "Well, well, you know what happened to me yesterday?" They're often running with their drama and now they're the center of attention. They're happy again. Things are okay. But when they feel left out, like they're around a group of people and they're not the center of attention, they really have a hard time with that and really, in many ways, embarrass themselves. I think of, what was that movie? It was the Bridesmaid or something like that. One of the Saturday Night Live comedians, and I'm blanking on her name right now. But she's just fighting for the microphone with the person who's giving ordinary announcements to the crowd. Megan Hunter: Yes. Bill Eddy: She's like, "Oh, and then ... " and it's just a classic example of- Megan Hunter: Kristen Wiig, right? Bill Eddy: That's it, Kristen Wiig. Megan Hunter: Yeah. Bill Eddy: She just does a brilliant job. Megan Hunter: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Bill Eddy: I think she produced that movie, but she does a brilliant job of demonstrating a histrionic personality, totally taking over somebody else's wedding. Megan Hunter: Interesting. Very interesting. So where does this come from? How does this personality type develop? Bill Eddy: Well, as with all the personalities, we tend to have three main causes for personality development. One of them is genetic tendencies, and I want to emphasize tendencies because different genes are turned on or not based on life experience. So the epigenetic approach that scientists are looking at more now, there's the nurture and the nature, not just one or the other. That may be 50, 60, 70% of somebody's personality just being somewhat born this way. Early childhood also can reinforce this. Someone who gets attention when they're dramatic, but when they're just being ordinary, gets ignored. Then, of course, the culture, and I dare say, we live in a histrionic culture today- Megan Hunter: For sure. Bill Eddy: It's drama everywhere as all the media compete to get attention and show you some of the worst behavior, some of the most dramatic people so it's this combination. Also, so to me, all these personalities, to some extent, may have genetically gone back centuries ago to where someone's drive to be center of attention might have really been functional, might have said, "The sky is falling. We're facing disaster," when in fact, they were facing disaster helped get people maybe out of a flood zone or out of a war zone just because they were so dramatic. So I think they're part of the personality gene pool, because it actually was functional at one point in time. Megan Hunter: Right, and now, what brings to mind are the social media influencers whose entire world, every second of every day is thinking about how to get attention. When they stop getting that attention, they get depressed, they get suicidal, and actually, many commit suicide. Now I'm not saying that they all have histrionic personality disorder, but I'm saying we're living in a world that's really not good for this type of personality. To help, if you're a parent, you don't want your child having all this attention- seeking behavior displayed on YouTube and any of the social channels, on Instagram, but that seems where we are now. So what would you recommend for parents to help their child not develop this attention-seeking behavior and be so reliant on it? Bill Eddy: A couple of things. I think first is paying attention to the good things that your child is doing, so your child doesn't feel like they have to be overly dramatic just to get attention. So rewarding them for positive behavior and saying, "You did really well on that drawing. This is really wonderful," and not overreacting to the drama is, "You really need to use your indoor voice now," or, "You really need to give a turn to Johnny because we want to share the time here and let everyone get their share of attention," and not exaggerating their role in the family like, "You're the little princess," or, "You're the little prince and the world revolves around you," because it doesn't. Megan Hunter: Bill, people are naming their children these names now like Princess and Prince and King and Royalty. Now, my dad's name is Royal, but he was born a long time ago, and I guess it was a popular name then. But I think in today's society, there's just this need to elevate your child to be the most special in the world, so let's give you the most special name in the world to make you think you are the most special person. Bill Eddy: Yeah. It's really not good for kids to make them feel like they have to be special to be okay. I remember college commencement speakers the last few years started saying, "You're not special. You're going to have to work hard. You're going to have to learn important skills. You're going to have to make friends," and that's what's more important. That's where parenting and I think early childhood education is shifting now is, let's teach kids how to be happy kids, be realistic and just be normal rather than extreme. Megan Hunter: Definitely. So what are the stats on histrionic personality disorder? Bill Eddy: Well, the big study that I always looked to, the one National Institutes of Health from the early 2000s said that it was about 1.8% of the general hot population. That what's interesting is they also found it's about equally men as well as women. Megan Hunter: Shocker. Bill Eddy: Yeah, I know. It's a small percent, but what I see the most, especially as a family lawyer in family court, is the highly dramatic person who also so has, say, narcissistic personality disorder and they combine it with the drama and they're very self-centered, dramatic. They love the stage of family court and they really irritate all the professionals who want to get down to business. Megan Hunter: Yeah, particularly lawyers and probably mental health professionals as well in those cases because every hour is important. These are billable hours, so it might be a little hard to get the information done in that hour time, right? Bill Eddy: Yes. As a lawyer, I learned I had to make notes what I wanted to accomplish in an hour, because it was we'd get so distracted. They'd be like, Oh, Bill and then this happened, and I don't know what to do about that," and so you get less work done per hour, but you have to bring them back and be gentle about it and say, "Wow, that's very interesting," or, "That's very sad. Now how I can help you today is focus on this next task and that's what was really helpful. it took me a while to learn that. Megan Hunter: Yeah. Yeah. That's a two-step shift, a dance. Give them the little empathy and a lot of attention, I guess you only have to give them a little attention to make them feel like they're receiving full attention and then shift into problem solving. So that was a simple little shift there. Bill Eddy: Exactly, and that's the key. Anybody, family members can do if they have a histrionic relative or even child to say, "Wow, that's very interesting. Now, let's get along with the task at hand." That helps them because in their mind, they're learning, "Oh, I need to shift from drama to task, to succeed." Megan Hunter: I like that, shift from drama to task. Now let's shift into what this looks like from the other side. So what's the experience of someone who's around someone with histrionic high conflict personality" Bill Eddy: You often feel like you're on the defensive because the high conflict histrionics are very accusatory. "You left this out." Well, it turned out you didn't. I remember a story about someone who said, "The maid stole my jewelry." Well the maid didn't deal the jewelry, they misplaced the jewelry themselves. So that drama really can hurt other people, get people fired, et cetera. There are stories about personal assistance for people in Hollywood, for example; some of them very respectful and some of very disrespectful. So it's hard. You feel off balance. You feel accused, perhaps, a lot and the thing, in many ways, is to just don't engage with that. Just redirect to some task, some project or, "I've got to go now, I'll see you later." Megan Hunter: Okay. What's it look like in a marital relationship, or romantic? Bill Eddy: Yeah. Basically, like that you just got to try to keep a balance and find other people in your life that make you feel good about yourself, because when you're with someone like this, they suck all the attention they want to be the focus. Now, some people have this more than others, so some marriages you might go, "Well, my spouse is pretty dramatic, but it's manageable." Some people get divorced because it's not manageable, so it's a judgment call, but everybody needs attention. Being around a histrionic person isn't always a healthy thing. Megan Hunter: I would imagine that someone in a relationship, like a romantic relationship would need to be not need center of attention in order for a relationship like this to work. Bill Eddy: Yeah. I suppose some people. Let's say you marry a histrionic actor who actually has a somewhat successful career, and you really love watching drama. That's somebody who probably would be a good partner. So someone who talks all the time and someone who's quiet might be a good match. But again, there's a range here because there's a lot of healthy relationships where one talks more than the other. It's when it becomes accusatory, being a target of blame, that's what's really unfair and unreasonable. Megan Hunter: That's the key, that target of blame. So let's switch into the workplace. Do we see these histrionic HCP behaviors in the workplace? Folks with this, are they successful? Bill Eddy: It's interesting. It depends on the occupation and the position they're in. So for example, if they're in a management position, they may be successful because they're good at something and they're histrionic and it's the good at something that helps them. Sometimes they are good at something, they get promoted to management and they do a terrible job as a manager because they have to have all the attention, people can't get worked on. I think one of your favorite TV shows included a histrionic man in a workplace office. I don't know if you know which one I'm talking about. Megan Hunter: Like in The Office? Bill Eddy: That office. Megan Hunter: That office. Yeah. That series is a full plate of information about HCPs. Bill Eddy: Yeah. Megan Hunter: Demonstrating [crosstalk 00:21:55] Bill Eddy: Steve Carell, I guess, is really a perfect histrionic in that show. Although, he can be a serious actor too, but it's just a very tempting and it's great to watch, but I wouldn't want to work there. Megan Hunter: Right. So if you could summarize histrionic high conflict people in one word, what would it be? Bill Eddy: Dramatic accusations. That's one word. Megan Hunter: Okay. We'll put a hyphen in there and call it one, okay?Wwhat tips do you have for dealing with a person like this in your life? Setting limits seems to be top of mind, when you think about it. Bill Eddy: Yeah. I think setting limits, but doing it with empathy, attention and respect so that you're not escalating. Like, if you yell at somebody to shut up, the last thing they want to do is stop talking. But if you say, "It's really enough now, I want to focus on this," or, "We need to focus on this." In many ways, it's redirecting with this personality, because just trying to stop them doesn't work. But if you redirect them with an EAR statement, so give them some empathy, attention and respect and, "Now let's focus over here," or "Now we need to stop talking for an hour because I have to get some work done." Megan Hunter: Oh, interesting. Do we see this personality type show up in particular areas? For example, what we see other personality types more often in the family court system or juvenile court or maybe criminal court, right? Where would you see this histrionic personality type? Bill Eddy: What's interesting is when I've done trainings for hospital people, especially nurses, they say of all the five high conflict personalities, this is the one they see the most and it's the drama plus the accusations, "You're the reason I'm sick." "You hurt me." There was one example, really. I read this in a legal case of a very histrionic woman who had to be taken by ambulance to the hospital, and when she got there, she claimed that the ambulance person had raped her. There was zero evidence. They investigated the whole thing. It was clear that it was a drama that she somehow filled her head with and it got somebody in a lot of trouble until it got figured out. So the healthcare system probably sees this the most. I'd say places like family court sees this in conjunction with the other personalities. Megan Hunter: So they're very emotionally persuasive it sounds like. Bill Eddy: Yes, and especially when they catch people by surprise, their drama can sound realistic and can get people worried like, "Oh, my goodness. This terrible thing is being done by this terrible person." So if somebody doesn't know you and a person starts saying, "Oh, Bill Eddy or Megan Hunter, have you heard the horrible thing they did to somebody?" "Oh, they tortured their dog or whatever it was, this is just terrible." If people don't know, they absorb that and because emotions are contagious and they're highly emotional. So that's the danger is that they'll persuade people of things that are totally untrue. Megan Hunter: Our brains are wired to love to hear stories and the histrionic personality loves to tell stories, right? Bill Eddy: Absolutely. They can be very exciting and dramatic. When contained, like if they're Hollywood people, they may actually do well, but that's usually not quite the disorder. Once it's a disorder, it's not really functional and once they target people, that's actually harmful. Megan Hunter: How do you tell the difference between the histrionic HCP and the other four types, or is that even important? Bill Eddy: In terms of strategies, sometimes people confuse this with borderline personality disorder, which has intense mood swings, but often includes a lot of anger; whereas histrionics aren't really that angry, they're just dramatic, although, there may be some overlap of both personalities. Likewise, narcissistic personality wants to be center of attention as well, but they often are more able to do tasks and may be able to tune into where other people are to make things happen. Their stories are exaggerations, but they're not as absorbed in emotions the way histrionic are. Megan Hunter: Okay. Well, if the light bulb just went on for you about this personality type and you think someone in your life may have this, it's important to avoid telling them that you figured them out because you might not have. Also, no one wants to be told that they're flawed. People that have traits of a full blown, high-conflict personality, they just don't have the kind of insight needed to absorb that kind of information. So just keep it to yourself, get educated and learn the necessary skills to manage the relationship you have with them, especially learning to set limits. So in the next episode, we'll talk about the fourth personality type of the five, paranoid high conflict personalities. You won't want to miss it. Megan Hunter: Be sure to look in the show notes for links to Bill's book, It's All Your Fault! Managing People Who Blame Others for Everything. Calming Upset People with EAR is another book and that one's really good for learning how to communicate verbally. Then also, the BIFF Series, B-I-F-F, that Bill has written. Then, there's one for co-parents one for just generally anyone and then one for the workplace. So we'll put those all in the show notes and along with a few courses. Be sure to tell your friends about our podcast and we wish you all the best in your relationships. It's All Your Fault! is a production of TruStory FM. Engineering by Andy Nelson, music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins, and Ziv Moran. Find the show, show notes and transcripts at truestory.fmforhighconflictinstitute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.