Latest / The Third Thing / S2E18: Can Men and Women Really Be Friends? Unpacking the Trope

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S2E18: Can Men and Women Really Be Friends? Unpacking the Trope · The Third Thing

• 0:00
  Danyelle: Welcome to the Third Thing, a podcast about friendship in all its fullness.
• 0:04
  Danyelle: The conflict worth repairing, the evolution worth honoring, and sometimes the letting go.
• 0:10
  Michelle: Think of it as a kitchen table conversation with honesty, laughter, validation, and plenty of tea.
• 0:17
  Danyelle: I'm Danielle, a therapist, healer, and voodoo practitioner who's been thinking about the way we love each other for most of my life.
• 0:25
  Michelle: And I'm Michelle, a life coach, facilitator, and a spaceholder at my core.
• 0:30
  Michelle: I've spent a lifetime helping people communicate better and more honestly.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: We've been best friends for 26 years and we've got 30s.
• 0:39
  Danyelle: We've done the work and we want to share what we've learned.
• 0:41
  Danyelle: The tools, the hard parts, the things nobody taught us.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of people figuring out their friendships without a roadmap.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: So we're pulling up a chair.
• 0:50
  Michelle: Hi Dee.
• 0:51
  Michelle: Hi Mage.
• 0:52
  Michelle: You ready to go today?
• 0:53
  Michelle: I'm ready.
• 0:55
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 0:55
  Michelle: Let's go.
• 0:58
  Michelle: Oh, she's gonna sing.
• 1:01
  Michelle: We're gonna have to plug that in, whatever it is.
• 1:04
  Michelle: Are you ready?
• 1:05
  Michelle: Yes, I am.
• 1:06
  Danyelle: What's that from?
• 1:08
  Danyelle: That I have no idea.
• 1:09
  Danyelle: Oh no, that one.
• 1:10
  Danyelle: I was singing a little John Wah Jen.
• 1:12
  Danyelle: Oh, nice.
• 1:13
  Danyelle: Okay.
• 1:13
  Danyelle: You know it.
• 1:14
  Michelle: I don't.
• 1:15
  Michelle: Okay.
• 1:15
  Michelle: Well, because I can't hear it.
• 1:17
  Michelle: No.
• 1:17
  Michelle: Okay.
• 1:18
  Michelle: You really want to.
• 1:20
  Michelle: Can men and women really be friends?
• 1:22
  Michelle: What do you think?
• 1:23
  Michelle: Just out the gate.
• 1:24
  Michelle: Can men and women be friends?
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 1:26
  Michelle: Yes.
• 1:27
  Michelle: Yes.
• 1:28
  Michelle: Hello.
• 1:29
  Michelle: We're getting into it.
• 1:30
  Michelle: Can two humans be friends?
• 1:32
  Michelle: Yes.
• 1:32
  Michelle: They can.
• 1:33
  Danyelle: This is not a men are from Mars.
• 1:36
  Danyelle: No.
• 1:37
  Danyelle: Men are from Venus.
• 1:38
  Michelle: It's 0% that.
• 1:39
  Michelle: But what it is, is the thesis of our show, period, which is the crossing the boundaries between romantic and friendship and intimacy at large.
• 1:54
  Michelle: And I think that is the thing that quote unquote stands between men and women being friends, is how intimate is too intimate?
• 2:03
  Michelle: Where do lines need to be drawn?
• 2:05
  Michelle: How do we deal with it when jealousy arises?
• 2:08
  Michelle: And that's not just between men and women, right?
• 2:10
  Michelle: That's in any sort of in any sort of intimacy, especially where there's some potential sexual relationship that could emerge.
• 2:20
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 2:21
  Danyelle: It's blurry.
• 2:22
  Danyelle: It's murky.
• 2:24
  Michelle: Blur and all right, I'm done.
• 2:26
  Michelle: Sorry.
• 2:26
  Michelle: It's a really on one today.
• 2:29
  Danyelle: It's your singing season, I guess.
• 2:31
  Danyelle: I'm here for it.
• 2:32
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 2:32
  Danyelle: Not season like season, but season.
• 2:36
  Danyelle: I got it.
• 2:36
  Danyelle: I was making sure everybody has to do it.
• 2:38
  Danyelle: I'm with you.
• 2:41
  Danyelle: All right, Aries.
• 2:45
  Danyelle: Um yeah, I mean, what you're speaking to is why we started the third thing, because intimacy is fluid and we don't just have it in one type of relationship.
• 3:01
  Danyelle: And because of so many of the models, the things that are communicated to us societally, in media, movies, we really believe that intimacy is only for romantic relationships.
• 3:18
  Danyelle: And what we know to be true is intimacy shows up in every relationship that you have.
• 3:25
  Danyelle: And so we really wanted to unpack the idea of men and women as friends because there's so much under it that gets all murky because of some of those societal norms, because of some of the ideas that are internalized based on, you know, systems of oppression.
• 3:47
  Michelle: We bring up cinema and the media quite a lot.
• 3:50
  Michelle: And I feel like you only sort of grow up for the first, I don't know, 14 years of your lives, seeing your parents model what it means to be an adult in relationship, both with each other, with you as a family unit, extended family, and then with their friends.
• 4:07
  Michelle: And then outside of that, you really only see it in television and movies until then you start taking what you've learned and seen modeled and turning it into your own soup version of it, right?
• 4:19
  Michelle: But most of us have seen when Harry met Sally and it's still making the rounds on TikTok too.
• 4:25
  Michelle: This idea that sex always gets in the way is something that's been working really hard towards the idea of can men and women be friends, not to mention the multitude of friends or frenemies to love uh pipeline movies and novels that that we all like to read also leads to this idea that there can't be just friendship there, that if there is that intimacy in a gender expression that you're attracted to, that ultimately it will cross the line, quote unquote.
• 5:03
  Michelle: For those of you not watching.
• 5:19
  Danyelle: Okay.
• 5:20
  Danyelle: And I mean, they figured it out, right?
• 5:22
  Danyelle: But it was this moment of like, you know, we already have this really great thing.
• 5:27
  Danyelle: Could we add this layer of other great things?
• 5:31
  Danyelle: But the sex got in the way.
• 5:32
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 5:33
  Danyelle: And so what we're saying is that's what we understand that really sex, sexual relations, flirting, any type of romance is going to create a wedge within platonic love.
• 5:48
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 5:48
  Michelle: We touched on this a little bit in our queerness episode, queerness and friendship, but I think it has a place here too, which is as we both were coming into our own in queerness, I wasn't really there yet.
• 6:00
  Michelle: But our friendship, our platonic love overlapped in a way that blurred those lines of intimacy, of like sharing a bed, of working together, of hanging out every day, knowing each other's schedule, which is very much, you know, it's also part and parcel of being younger and kind of being able to give that of each other, but it is reminiscent of how you act in romantic love.
• 6:23
  Michelle: And then I'm curious, have you had friendships where maybe there was an attraction on your side or the other side?
• 6:32
  Michelle: And, you know, how did that go?
• 6:35
  Michelle: I'm sure there've been any number that have gone one way or the other.
• 6:39
  Danyelle: I just have to say that we still share the calendar.
• 6:43
  Michelle: We do.
• 6:44
  Michelle: Well, yes, we have for years.
• 6:46
  Michelle: Decades.
• 6:47
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 6:47
  Danyelle: Um, it's still there.
• 6:54
  Danyelle: Um yeah.
• 6:57
  Danyelle: Well, you know, it's not a surprise to you that I think humans are cute.
• 7:02
  Danyelle: Humans are beautiful.
• 7:05
  Danyelle: And I have absolutely had attraction to friends.
• 7:11
  Danyelle: And, you know, I think there is this, there are moments where it is acted upon or it's mutual.
• 7:19
  Danyelle: And so there's like that space to explore.
• 7:22
  Danyelle: And there's times that you just like hold that, you know, or there are times that I've I've held that and don't speak on that or say anything about it.
• 7:31
  Danyelle: But I do feel like when you're getting to know somebody in friendship, when you're getting to know somebody at the beginning of a budding relationship, attraction is a part of that.
• 7:45
  Danyelle: And it can grow or fizzle depending on what happens in how you nurture it or don't.
• 7:55
  Danyelle: Completely, completely.
• 7:56
  Danyelle: And so, you know, I think you what what we want to uplift in this episode really is where does attraction live in platonic love and how do you manage that?
• 8:08
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 8:08
  Michelle: I was talking to a friend who had been seeing a therapist because her partner asked her to marry him.
• 8:15
  Michelle: And she was like, oh my God, we haven't even talked about this.
• 8:18
  Michelle: And even though we've been together for years, like she had some stuff to work through, right?
• 8:22
  Michelle: And one of the questions she had was not, do I love him or not?
• 8:26
  Michelle: It was, you know, there are these pieces missing from my relationship.
• 8:30
  Michelle: Like my last relationship, while there were other things wrong, he would always like compliment my outfits and tell me how sexy I was.
• 8:37
  Michelle: And I just felt so uplifted in that way.
• 8:40
  Michelle: And my now fiance never really comments on how I look or my body.
• 8:46
  Michelle: And sometimes I don't know where I stand with him.
• 8:50
  Michelle: And what's interesting is knowing both of them, it's not a function of whether he's attracted to her.
• 8:55
  Michelle: It's just the way that he carries himself and communicates, which is differently.
• 8:58
  Michelle: And what her therapist said to her is that she has to decide for herself where her own intimacy boundaries are, and that she can't necessarily expect to get every need that she has met by her husband or by her partner.
• 9:13
  Michelle: And I think that's something I've really held with me because in modern relationships, we do have these expectations that not only will we share a family life, we'll live together and have the same expectations around cleanliness and sex and money, and that we're gonna have great date nights and travel well together, it's a really heavy load that we put on our partners.
• 9:34
  Michelle: And so being given permission to show your girlfriends your outfit or go out and get a cocktail and maybe someone will flirt with you and that acknowledging that this is a need you need met, but that it can potentially, if it's okay with you, if if you sort of negotiated that boundary within yourself, to get it from somewhere else.
• 9:57
  Michelle: And that could be a male friend, maybe.
• 10:01
  Danyelle: You're bringing in different relationship structures.
• 10:05
  Danyelle: And again, oftentimes we think of these as solely for romantic relationships, but relationship structures exist within platonic love as well.
• 10:15
  Danyelle: Interesting.
• 10:15
  Danyelle: The idea of being a relationship anarchist, right?
• 10:19
  Danyelle: To be able to say, this is the type of relationship I have with this person, and it includes these things.
• 10:25
  Danyelle: It excludes these things.
• 10:27
  Danyelle: One of my many teachers around polyamory and ethical non-monogamy and relationship anarchy, Shinee Kendall Jackson talks about her relationships as sexual and non-sexual.
• 10:41
  Danyelle: Interesting.
• 10:41
  Danyelle: That those are just the the those are the two and only defining factors in the relationship.
• 10:48
  Danyelle: And everything else is kind of on the table, right?
• 10:50
  Danyelle: Do I have sex with this person or do I not have sex with this person?
• 10:54
  Michelle: But maybe we do share a bed, maybe we do travel together, maybe maybe I do invite you to a wedding, and whether or not we sleep together is not a deciding factor.
• 11:03
  Danyelle: Exactly.
• 11:03
  Danyelle: And so I have sat with that since I heard her speak about this.
• 11:09
  Danyelle: And, you know, it's not something that I have fully integrated into my own vocabulary and lexicon, but it's something that I do think about because as early as this week, I was leaving you a voice note, and in my head, I was just like, I love her so much.
• 11:28
  Danyelle: Like it was a full body expression of love.
• 11:33
  Danyelle: And you have this moment of like, and but she is my friend, and not even but, but and she is my friend.
• 11:41
  Danyelle: And I think it gets lost when we have to separate or compartmentalize, box in the types of love and intimacy that we share with others.
• 11:53
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 11:54
  Michelle: And going back to your conversation around polyamory and relationship anarchy is this idea of love and capacity for love.
• 12:04
  Michelle: And when you think about it through the lens of parenthood and how fully love your child, and then the idea of having another one, does that then mean that you love the first child less or the second child less?
• 12:17
  Michelle: Or does and can your heart expand to include more?
• 12:22
  Michelle: And for some people, they know that they can't.
• 12:25
  Michelle: They're like, I have love for one child, and that's where it begins and ends.
• 12:29
  Michelle: And for other people, their love is so expansive that they actually have to spread it around.
• 12:34
  Michelle: Otherwise, it could be too much for one person, you know?
• 12:37
  Michelle: But we can so easily understand and accept that when it comes to a parent with children.
• 12:42
  Michelle: And then when it comes to romantic love or even friendship, frankly, how can you have multiple best friends?
• 12:48
  Michelle: It's like it's this expansiveness that some of us have to give love.
• 12:53
  Michelle: And so I love thinking about it that way.
• 12:56
  Michelle: And it starts to change the makeup or chemistry of how you view relationships.
• 13:01
  Michelle: And even though I'm in monogamous relationship, I do, I do like to hold hands and hug extra long and and have like body closeness with people.
• 13:12
  Michelle: And for other relationships, that's not allowed.
• 13:15
  Michelle: And I think that one of the most interesting parts of this question about can men and women really be friends is the men piece or people socialized as men, where they aren't as encouraged to have physical connection.
• 13:29
  Michelle: And we often joke behind the scenes when you look at like a mosh pit or wrestling, it's like, oh, they really needed that physical touch, you know?
• 13:37
  Michelle: But in all seriousness, they maybe outside of romantic partners are not getting hugged as much.
• 13:45
  Michelle: I had a friend come over who had had a really rough night doing a comedy, and then his car got towed, and he like the room was not supportive.
• 13:56
  Michelle: And I invited him over for breakfast and he had some tears, and he was like, Oh, this was really nice.
• 14:03
  Michelle: Like, thank you so much.
• 14:04
  Michelle: And I think that the non-judgmental listening space that's not rooted in teasing each other, that offers a physical hug, that feeds someone is very tied to femininity and the divine feminine.
• 14:19
  Michelle: And I think that men sometimes miss that in their relationships, and especially if they aren't in a romantic relationship with a woman.
• 14:28
  Michelle: And even when they are said what she said.
• 14:32
  Danyelle: You know, I mean, I think it's important to name that we don't always get what we need in relationships, and I think folks who are socialized as men it's actually quite discouraged to ask for what you need emotionally.
• 14:48
  Danyelle: And I would go so far to say ask for what you need physically as well.
• 14:54
  Danyelle: You should take, you should be owed, you should be, you know, the expectation.
• 15:00
  Danyelle: And so even just the thought of naming a need can be viewed as weak or more feminine and not as masculine.
• 15:11
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 15:12
  Michelle: And there's so many dynamics at play here as well, because women are stereotypically the givers in that way of physical connection, of emotional connection.
• 15:23
  Michelle: And then when we become parents, it can be depleting on both sides that you've been giving and giving and giving all day, and I just don't have it for you right now.
• 15:33
  Michelle: And so is that okay?
• 15:35
  Michelle: A and B, are you allowed to find connection elsewhere?
• 15:39
  Michelle: Lord knows.
• 15:40
  Michelle: My wife and I need nights with our friends.
• 15:43
  Michelle: Like, can you be with the kid tonight?
• 15:45
  Michelle: I got somewhere to be.
• 15:46
  Michelle: I need to go be with an adult.
• 15:48
  Michelle: I need to go have a conversation.
• 15:50
  Michelle: And not demanding that of my partner, but like having other places where I can find that connection is something that's available to me that I don't take, maybe I do take it for granted, frankly.
• 16:01
  Michelle: But are men given that same like, hey, you've had a really hard day, you've been with the kids, I'm gonna go out with my girlfriend, like my friend that's a girl.
• 16:08
  Michelle: It's like, oh, that's awkward all of a sudden, even though it's the same setup, right?
• 16:15
  Michelle: I mean, yeah.
• 16:16
  Michelle: Woof.
• 16:17
  Michelle: I mean, uh we're done.
• 16:19
  Michelle: The end.
• 16:20
  Michelle: See you next week.
• 16:21
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 16:24
  Michelle: That part.
• 16:25
  Michelle: And I I wanna, oh no, you don't.
• 16:27
  Michelle: No, because I just I was just going off.
• 16:29
  Danyelle: No, I mean it was good.
• 16:30
  Danyelle: That's I'm like, yeah, like the negotiation.
• 16:34
  Danyelle: And the negotiation that is rooted in what is right, what is allowed to do.
• 16:40
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 16:44
  Danyelle: Growing up, I definitely had I had two best guy friends.
• 16:49
  Danyelle: My two best friends were guys, and growing up, I'll say in middle school.
• 16:53
  Danyelle: And oh my god, I adored them.
• 16:55
  Danyelle: They were like my buds.
• 16:57
  Danyelle: Yeah, like we did everything together.
• 16:59
  Danyelle: We were a little trio.
• 17:00
  Danyelle: I actually ended up, you know, having a little middle school romance with one of them.
• 17:07
  Danyelle: And it did complicate things, you know, because one, middle school, and two, because sometimes it does.
• 17:14
  Danyelle: And I think it lends itself more when you don't have the language, when you don't have the lived experience.
• 17:20
  Danyelle: But things were a little bit different after that, yeah, because of the ways that the relationship shifted.
• 17:29
  Danyelle: We weren't that trio.
• 17:30
  Danyelle: We didn't go to the mall every Friday.
• 17:32
  Danyelle: And, you know, so I think although that I'm speaking to this from my younger self years, there is still that same energy of like, well, now we can't be friends.
• 17:43
  Michelle: We can't go back.
• 17:44
  Michelle: And it's almost like so much of sort of like crossing the line of hooking up or having sex or whatever it is, when it goes to then circle back around to friendship.
• 17:56
  Michelle: Again, we're referring back to the media where there's the fairy tale ending.
• 18:00
  Michelle: And so then you are left with this feeling of like, I wasn't good enough or I wasn't chosen when we all know that there's so many reasons why people don't want to be in relationship or can't get together or like don't have the maturity to move in that way, and that it rarely has anything to do with you or anything that you've done wrong.
• 18:20
  Michelle: But yeah, I have had similar situations throughout my life.
• 18:24
  Michelle: I really cherish my male friends for so many reasons.
• 18:28
  Michelle: I think some of those relationships in particular have been very healing for me to have men in my life who are curious about me and who offer advice and who stay is healing some wounds from childhood.
• 18:44
  Michelle: And I think that they are specific to men.
• 18:47
  Michelle: And so I on on one side though, I think that sometimes I am looking for men to find me interesting and attractive and pretty, and there's some underbelly there, some shadow work there.
• 19:00
  Michelle: But I am really grateful for some of the healing that's happened, especially because before meeting Ashley and before moving more into my queerness, I had very transactional relationships with men.
• 19:12
  Michelle: I felt very used or not special or important.
• 19:16
  Michelle: And so now having friends that I know love me that do find me special and important and that center me has helped heal some of that, you know.
• 19:26
  Danyelle: Uh yes, I love this so much because this is exactly why you can be friends across, you know, humanness.
• 19:34
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 19:35
  Danyelle: Because what you're speaking to is how the ways that you were engaging in relationships with men in this transactional way was harmful.
• 19:44
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 19:44
  Danyelle: Being able to have the opportunity to grow, deepen, connect with men in adulthood in a way that is more meaningful, more intimate, more safe, more grounding, has allowed you to say, like, oh, it's not all men, not all, you know, it's it's not all like this.
• 20:05
  Danyelle: I am interesting, I am special.
• 20:08
  Danyelle: And I do think that healing can get missed because we're not thinking about it in that way, or we're not having those conversations.
• 20:19
  Danyelle: And I'm thinking about it from the male perspective of like what healing might be needed there that can never get touched or never get healed because it's taboo or it's not allowed.
• 20:36
  Michelle: Because when you see Michelle pop up on the phone and you say, I miss you or I love you or whatever, then your wife sees it and this is a hypothetical, but and it's like, oh, well, who are you talking to?
• 20:48
  Michelle: Because it's immediately like that scarcity of if you're offering affection to someone else and there's not enough for me, when really maybe it's I wish you would talk to me that way, or what's going on for you?
• 21:00
  Michelle: Can I hold space for something that you're getting from that relationship that you're not getting here?
• 21:04
  Michelle: Or thank God somebody else is dealing with you because I'm busy.
• 21:08
  Michelle: You know, like there's so many different ways to handle it.
• 21:11
  Michelle: But I will say this is taking it in a bit of a different direction.
• 21:15
  Michelle: But I'm curious if you've had this experience.
• 21:18
  Michelle: Because I live and exist in a bigger body, I'm not saying that I'm not beautiful or that that's not widely accepted.
• 21:24
  Michelle: And my experience has been that maybe I'm not perceived as a threat, if that makes sense.
• 21:32
  Michelle: So I feel like I have been open to, in a good way, that I have had more flexibility with male friendships than other friends of mine have.
• 21:45
  Michelle: And one of the perfect examples was in college, my sweet friend Alenny and I were both resident advisors, and she was a year younger than me, and she was cute as a button.
• 21:54
  Michelle: And everybody, there was a Facebook group called I Have a Crush on Alenny.
• 21:58
  Michelle: And I actually felt really bad for her.
• 22:00
  Michelle: Because people were up in her business.
• 22:02
  Michelle: Like the girls were drama-y around her, and the boys wanted to date her, and everyone wanted to know what she was doing.
• 22:07
  Michelle: And I feel like I was sort of treated like the mom of the floor, and like, oh, there's Michelle.
• 22:13
  Michelle: What's up, girl?
• 22:14
  Michelle: And you know, and I moved through that space easier because maybe from that norm, I yeah, I was not I keep a threat, is the way that I think of it.
• 22:30
  Danyelle: It's interesting because I there's ways in which I do have that experience and ways in which I have more experiences like your friend, because I think black women are hypersexualized.
• 22:44
  Danyelle: Sure.
• 22:45
  Danyelle: And growing up in Marin, I was not the desired state.
• 22:50
  Danyelle: And so that's also in my head.
• 22:51
  Danyelle: Sure.
• 22:52
  Danyelle: And so there is this way in which I feel like I moved through the world with like no one wants me.
• 22:57
  Danyelle: Like no one thinks I'm cute.
• 22:59
  Michelle: I think that's super interesting what you just said about black women being hypersexualized.
• 23:04
  Michelle: And so have you ever been like in that position where you were genuinely just friends with somebody and their partner was like, could you fucking not?
• 23:11
  Michelle: Or you thought you were just entering into a friendship relationship and they were like really coming at you in a different way?
• 23:17
  Danyelle: I've definitely entered into a friendship where it is just a friendship.
• 23:23
  Danyelle: And all of a sudden I'm like, whoa, that took a hard left that I wasn't expecting because there is an expectation or thought or a belief that black women are going to show up in this really specific way.
• 23:37
  Danyelle: And so as you were talking, I was resonating kind of again with both of your experiences in this trope or the idea that when men and women are friends, in some cases, like me, or in some cases like your friend, it is this expectation that you're gonna give something up or you're gonna be in this specific way.
• 24:00
  Michelle: Yeah, I'm I think that's a really important that you brought that up because again, all the influence of culture in the media, how black women are presented, you know, even as you were putting on your lipstick, I was like, what's that like?
• 24:12
  Michelle: It's big, beautiful lips and and a big booty and that being more on display, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you're asking for someone to grab you or to be sexualized.
• 24:24
  Michelle: And living in a bigger body sometimes does lend itself to like, ooh, like I want to squish you and touch you.
• 24:30
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 24:31
  Michelle: And I have come to a place in my life where I kind of embrace that, where I acknowledge that there are so many people who are undertouched and are craving that kind of connection and intimacy.
• 24:45
  Michelle: And I enjoy it too.
• 24:47
  Michelle: And so to me, it doesn't bother me like always when it's mutual, when it's welcome.
• 24:53
  Michelle: Like I love to give someone a hug.
• 24:56
  Michelle: Even my wife runs a bar, high dive in San Francisco, and she is so beloved, but she's behind the bar.
• 25:04
  Michelle: People love to laugh with her, she makes people feel welcome, she makes people feel like it's very cheers-like environment.
• 25:11
  Michelle: And so when then I come to the bar, it's almost like I'm an extension of her, and people really want to like touch my hair.
• 25:18
  Michelle: They want to hug me, they want to embrace me.
• 25:19
  Michelle: And it's like I can hold that.
• 25:22
  Michelle: Like I can be the way that you show her love, you know?
• 25:28
  Michelle: But yeah, but I also see that other side of it where it's like the unwanted attention, and or you end up being put in this weird position because people do think you're quote unquote safe, and then there's a a line crossing.
• 25:42
  Michelle: So all this is to say it depends.
• 25:45
  Michelle: It depends.
• 25:47
  Michelle: One thing that's been coming up is this idea that women are expansive and that we already had that piece locked down around motherhood and friendship and keeping up of the home.
• 26:03
  Michelle: And then now we're going to college, we're rising on the corporate ladder, sometimes we're breadwinners as well, and we're sort of like holding these multitudes, but men have not necessarily met the moment on the other side where they're carrying emotional labor of the household or of the friend group.
• 26:23
  Michelle: And I do think that I'm gonna speak more towards what I see in the heteronormative, like on the playground and with my friends who have kids, women are the ones making the play dates and throwing the parties and bringing the gift and sending the thank you cards.
• 26:39
  Michelle: They're doing the labor of friendship.
• 26:42
  Michelle: And there's a real gap often with men.
• 26:46
  Michelle: I am overgeneralizing here, but that they're not maintaining their own friendships, or that when they are their very surface level.
• 26:53
  Michelle: And so it does put a lot of weight on their partners to then hold the emotional support along with everything else that they're doing.
• 27:02
  Danyelle: Yeah, I think it's such an important piece, and I do feel like it is having a moment right now of this idea that what might happen if men felt safe enough to be expansive, that it has taken a lot for women to break the glass ceiling and to show up in the boardroom spaces and all of that.
• 27:23
  Danyelle: And it is both that as a society, we don't give men that opportunity, that space, because it is softer, and men are taking that opportunity.
• 27:36
  Danyelle: And yes, I think there's some definitely some blanket uh statements here.
• 27:41
  Danyelle: Um more general, definitely some generalized statements here, and kind of thinking about the collective.
• 27:49
  Danyelle: We see it.
• 27:49
  Danyelle: We see it all of the time.
• 27:51
  Danyelle: And when you're thinking about maintaining and deepening and connecting, if that feels foreign, new, novel, you're not gonna be able to keep it up.
• 28:02
  Danyelle: You're not gonna be able to do it.
• 28:04
  Danyelle: It feels awkward, it doesn't feel natural.
• 28:07
  Danyelle: And so why wouldn't you just go back to your partner and get what you you know, get that, get it there?
• 28:15
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 28:15
  Michelle: But I think until men learn to share their emotions with each other, relationships between men and women are really important.
• 28:25
  Michelle: I was watching off campus with my with my wife.
• 28:29
  Michelle: And um, for those of you who've seen it, the one of the main characters, his dad is abusive, but is a famous hockey player, and all of his friends are like idolizing his dad and wanting to get this sign from him.
• 28:41
  Michelle: And he keeps getting these opportunities where he could be honest and say, like, hey, I had a really tough upbringing and like I'm struggling with this, and he never does.
• 28:49
  Michelle: But then he starts dating a girl and he fully unloads on her and starts crying, and she then is carrying the weight of that.
• 28:57
  Michelle: And so I do think that men are more comfortable being vulnerable with women than with each other often because there's always this sort of like hyper masculinity and this need to compete and be the biggest guy in the room.
• 29:09
  Michelle: So I do think that these cross-gender fluid relationships are important for that reason.
• 29:18
  Michelle: And we need to fix this and like allow for men to show all sides of themselves and so that like our world can be better.
• 29:28
  Michelle: Frankly, we can stop murdering people too much or just feel your feelings.
• 29:36
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 29:37
  Danyelle: I just feel really called to be like, and this is why I love being gay, because there is such room for queerness, right?
• 29:49
  Danyelle: We talked we touched on this on that queerness episode, but like queerness in culture, queerness in the way we are emotional, the way that we are intimate, the way that we show up with each other.
• 30:00
  Danyelle: You know, I talked about it a couple of times.
• 30:02
  Danyelle: Like I currently live with my ex and I talk about her as my queer platonic ex-wife.
• 30:10
  Danyelle: I want to build a life, like I want to build with her.
• 30:12
  Danyelle: I want to continue to build in the ways that we do.
• 30:15
  Danyelle: And even when we're not living together, the way that we care about each other and the ways that we show up for each other.
• 30:21
  Danyelle: It's very intimate, it's very lovey.
• 30:23
  Danyelle: It's very, I mean, she probably wouldn't say it, but it is romantic.
• 30:28
  Danyelle: Like, sure.
• 30:28
  Danyelle: What would you like for dinner?
• 30:30
  Danyelle: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 30:31
  Danyelle: It's intimate.
• 30:32
  Danyelle: Exactly.
• 30:33
  Danyelle: And so, like, I love that I'm able to do that.
• 30:37
  Danyelle: I'm I love that I'm able to invite a partner over and cook for both of them.
• 30:41
  Danyelle: And that's not weird or uncomfortable or a level of jealousy.
• 30:46
  Danyelle: And I think that does speak to not wanting to be romantic or in a romantic relationship with her.
• 30:54
  Danyelle: And it is really beautiful.
• 30:56
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 30:57
  Danyelle: I think about this as well with Ashley.
• 30:59
  Danyelle: Ashley and I literally get on a plane every year and go share an Airbnb.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:07
  Danyelle: There's a world in which in a heterosexual that that probably would never happen.
• 31:17
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 31:18
  Danyelle: And I love the fact that we live, yeah, right.
• 31:21
  Danyelle: We share a bed, we share meals.
• 31:24
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 31:24
  Danyelle: You know, like, you know, there are ways in which that we're doing all of these things that are deeply intimate and connected.
• 31:32
  Danyelle: And our last trip to Boston was the first time that people were like, oh, you two?
• 31:36
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 31:37
  Danyelle: We both were like, no, like, no.
• 31:39
  Danyelle: Like what?
• 31:39
  Danyelle: And then we both were like, well, are you offended?
• 31:42
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 31:44
  Danyelle: That's hilarious.
• 31:45
  Danyelle: But I think it is important to name how when we can deconstruct and confront these systems of oppression, these systems of power, the patriarchy, we get to love in such a deeper way.
• 32:00
  Michelle: Oh my God.
• 32:01
  Michelle: I'm so grateful for queerness and for you bringing that up too, and for the freedom that that affords us.
• 32:08
  Michelle: Because the picture that's coming to mind is beautiful Teddy, who I met at a pride party, and he wanted some glitter tattoo, a glitter tattoo that I had.
• 32:19
  Michelle: And I got to put them on his face and give him a little kiss, and we went on our way.
• 32:24
  Michelle: And, you know, we see each other once a year.
• 32:26
  Michelle: And I um think he's so lovely and handsome.
• 32:30
  Michelle: And we got to just like share this cute little moment where again, can you imagine what that would look?
• 32:37
  Michelle: You know what?
• 32:38
  Michelle: I'm gonna stop actually and rewind and say that there have I been blessed with moments, with moments with people who have more flexibility.
• 32:47
  Michelle: Um, my good friend Karthik from grad school has surprised me.
• 32:51
  Michelle: Like, I would always wear what I wear and makeup that I wear.
• 32:55
  Michelle: And he was like, I would love for you to do my makeup sometime.
• 32:57
  Michelle: And I was like, oh my God, I would love that.
• 32:59
  Michelle: And I kind of thought it was like a drunken confession.
• 33:02
  Michelle: But then he followed up and he was like, Do you have your makeup?
• 33:04
  Michelle: And I was like, Yeah, do you want to come into my room?
• 33:06
  Michelle: I'll do it.
• 33:06
  Michelle: And he was like, No, you can just bring it down.
• 33:08
  Michelle: And I remember having this feeling of like, like worried for him that, like, oh, I don't want to like embed it's one thing to show up with it on, but to like sit there and and have people see you getting it applied.
• 33:19
  Michelle: Like, I felt stressed for his masculinity, but he loved it and was not worried.
• 33:25
  Michelle: And then we went to a dinner and he had me do his friends' makeup.
• 33:28
  Michelle: He was like, You're gonna love it.
• 33:29
  Michelle: And so I'm so grateful in the way that some people are choosing to become more expansive.
• 33:35
  Michelle: And but ultimately it is queerness and it is this scale of freedom that you're allowing yourself, these relationships that you get to delve in in such a deeper way that makes life fuller, I think.
• 33:49
  Michelle: Fuller, bigger, better, stronger, harder, faster, stronger.
• 33:55
  Michelle: Um, what's come up to the surface in this episode for you?
• 33:58
  Michelle: You know, it it was just what we said.
• 34:01
  Danyelle: I'm really glad I'm gay.
• 34:03
  Danyelle: I know I just said it, but I'm really doubling down.
• 34:06
  Danyelle: Yeah, and I I will I will zoom out or rewind.
• 34:13
  Danyelle: I'm really glad my mom's gay.
• 34:15
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 34:15
  Danyelle: I'm really glad that my mom, my dad, and my Mala Laura showed me what relationships could look like when you're caring for each other.
• 34:27
  Danyelle: And that is intimacy.
• 34:30
  Danyelle: And I'm really glad that I had a queer community around me growing up to show me the different ways you can love each other that don't have to be so formulaic or so prescriptive.
• 34:43
  Danyelle: I feel like the thing that is bubbling up for me as well is just how we had like created our own, you know, different types and layers of intimacy.
• 34:56
  Danyelle: I love this conversation because what I hope the invitation is to our listeners is what does intimacy look like in relationships, regardless of gender, regardless of sexual orientation, regardless of gender expression.
• 35:16
  Danyelle: How are you connecting with somebody on an energetic soul?
• 35:21
  Danyelle: This is how this person is filling my cup level, versus this is the type of relationship I need to be in because this person's genitals.
• 35:30
  Michelle: Yeah.
• 35:32
  Danyelle: What about you, Bob?
• 35:36
  Michelle: I'm so grateful for the friendships that I have had and have in my life.
• 35:43
  Michelle: And it's been nice through this conversation to reflect specifically on my male relationships and how different each of them is, and like what a gift it's been to my healing to have those friendships.
• 35:56
  Michelle: And I think that I've been able to surprise people going back to that conversation of I make people cry at a party, but I think that I've been able to surprise people with how much they're able to connect or find different parts of themselves.
• 36:13
  Michelle: And that is really rich to me in friendship.
• 36:17
  Michelle: And I think my invitation is to look at your own personal boundaries, your boundaries with your romantic relationship, and where are they rooted in fear?
• 36:27
  Michelle: And where could they be more expansive?
• 36:30
  Michelle: I'm not talking about opening up your relationship unless that interests you.
• 36:33
  Michelle: But what I am talking about is do you allow yourself flirtation and a crush?
• 36:38
  Michelle: Do you allow yourself to hold somebody's hand or have a bit of an extra hug?
• 36:42
  Michelle: They say that that's like an eight-second hug releases this oxytocin cocktail for you.
• 36:49
  Michelle: And so do you allow that to yourself again, regardless of gender expression and genitals and all that?
• 36:56
  Michelle: Um will you pull us a card?
• 36:59
  Michelle: I will.
• 37:00
  Danyelle: I really love this conversation.
• 37:02
  Michelle: Me too.
• 37:03
  Michelle: It's good.
• 37:04
  Michelle: It's good.
• 37:05
  Michelle: I know.
• 37:05
  Michelle: I feel like there's so much more to say, but I know.
• 37:08
  Danyelle: I mean, this is why we'll just keep recording for y'all.
• 37:12
  Danyelle: We may circle back.
• 37:14
  Danyelle: Who knows?
• 37:15
  Danyelle: All right.
• 37:16
  Danyelle: What do the cards have for us?
• 37:23
  Danyelle: The ace of swords in reverse.
• 37:26
  Danyelle: All right.
• 37:26
  Danyelle: So this is the first time you didn't go, oh, is this everyone?
• 37:31
  Danyelle: No, no.
• 37:32
  Danyelle: I'm sitting with like, yeah, it feels settled.
• 37:36
  Danyelle: It feels settled.
• 37:37
  Danyelle: So aces in tarot are the beginning.
• 37:41
  Danyelle: If you think of it as like a zero or one, and it is the spark, it is the universe having your back.
• 37:49
  Danyelle: So if you're like thinking about something, an ace arriving is always a like jump.
• 37:55
  Danyelle: You're good.
• 37:56
  Danyelle: So we're just connected to the element air, and it is our head, very Mercurian energy, our throat chakra.
• 38:02
  Danyelle: I like to think of it as like a talk bubble and thought bubble.
• 38:06
  Danyelle: How are they communicating?
• 38:08
  Danyelle: Are you thinking something but saying something different?
• 38:11
  Danyelle: So that's all swords energy.
• 38:13
  Danyelle: The ace of swords is this invitation to deconstruct, to think about newness in your message, in the ways that you think, the ways that you are talking to others in your communication.
• 38:29
  Danyelle: I think about this in reverse as a hesitancy, as a fear of taking those steps, trusting that you can do something different and it will be okay.
• 38:41
  Danyelle: And so this is the universe really naming how we're stuck here sometimes.
• 38:47
  Danyelle: We're stuck in the tropes.
• 38:49
  Danyelle: And what the ace of swords is really saying to you is like, but what if you jumped?
• 38:54
  Danyelle: What if you tried?
• 38:55
  Danyelle: What if you had that conversation with your partner and said, hey, I'm really needing this type of intimacy that we don't have?
• 39:04
  Danyelle: What could it look like for me to get it in this way?
• 39:07
  Danyelle: And again, that doesn't mean opening your relationship.
• 39:10
  Danyelle: That doesn't mean all of a sudden you are practicing ethical non-monogamy.
• 39:15
  Danyelle: Intimacy doesn't have to fit in those buckets.
• 39:18
  Danyelle: Michelle and I have deep intimacy and we are the best of friends.
• 39:22
  Danyelle: And so, how are you becoming more expansive?
• 39:25
  Danyelle: How are you trusting that your relationship is strong enough to be in these spaces?
• 39:34
  Danyelle: Beautiful.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: See you next week.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: Have a good one.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: If today's episode meant something to you, share it with a friend.
• 39:41
  Michelle: Find us on Instagram at the Third Thing Pod, and everything we're building lives at www.thethirdthingpod.com.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: Episode notes, our workbooks, all of it.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're ready to go deeper, real community, monthly events, early access, and to join the group chat, we're on Patreon.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: The link is in the show notes.
• 40:02
  Michelle: If you're loving the show, a rating and review genuinely helps more people find us.
• 40:07
  Michelle: It takes two minutes and it means everything.