Latest / The Platform: a Michigan High School Powerlifting Association Podcast / Building the Big Three: The Art of Accessory Work with Andrew Clute| The Platform Ep. 27
Transcript
- Chris Whittaker: Ladies and gentlemen, we are back with another episode of the platform, your Michigan High School Powerlifting Association podcast where the stories weigh a ton. Been a little bit since we put out an episode. My apologies on that. Things have gotten away with the fall and football season from me. But we got a great one on tap for you today. We're gonna put out two this week, two different episodes with two different topics, because we have missed. So Today we're talking about the work that doesn't always get the attention it deserves. it doesn't always end up on the Instagram page and the social medias and you know, everybody wants to see the athletes bragging about how much they, you know, do in the squat and the bench and the deadlift. but it is the work that ultimately determines how much weight we put on the bar in our sport of powerlifting and how we develop weak points. in general and that's accessory work. I joining Coach Gillim and myself is Onset High School head powerlifting coach and strength and conditioning coach Coach Andrew Clute. He's a fellow conjugate guy. So we're digging deep into the accessory work and how it fits into building the squat, the bench and the deadlift. We talk about how we identify weak points, choosing the right movements to address them, building the posterior chain, developing shoulder stability and tricep strength, and fixing deadlift lockout. How we manage training volume, how we get athletes to understand that sometimes the lighter, less glamorous work is exactly what they need to get stronger. We also get into training age versus biological age, programming for adults, recovery, RPE, failure, tracking accessory progress, how busy coaches and athletes can still get their work done when time is limited. But before we get started, make sure you subscribe here to the platform, leave us a rating and review, share the show with your athletes, your coaches, your teammates. Or even just your social circle that might be interested in what we're talking about here on the platform. And if you want to support us here on the platform podcast and the Michigan High School Power Lifting Association, you can visit the MHSPLA Fourth Wall Shop and grab yourself some MHS PLA and platform gear at MHSPLA-shop.com. So step up, lock in, the bar is loaded for Building the Big Three, the Art of Accessory Work. With Coach Andrew Clue. Hit the intro music. Ladies and gentlemen, the bar is loaded for another episode of your Michigan High School Powerlifting Association podcast, the platform where the stories weigh a ton. I'm your co-host, as always, Chris Whitaker, Dexter High School, Iron Dread Strength and Conditioning, Iron Dread Power Lifting, and the chair of the Michigan High School Powerlifting Association board. I am here with my co-host, as always, he is. Our commander in chief, our executive director of the Michigan High School Powerlifting Association, Coach Chris Gillum. Coach Gillum, good to see you again. Chris Gilliam: Yeah, you too. Good to see you and glad we have our guest here today and looking forward to our conversation. Chris Whittaker: Yeah, this one's gonna be fun. Like we enjoy when we get to talk training. and specifically with this one, we're gonna be talking about the roles of and importance of accessory work. So when we were looking for guests for this, you know, my conjugate bias really kicked in, and I said, who's another conjugate guy that we can talk to here? and my brain went to our buddy. He is the head powerlifting coach at Onstead High School. His name, mister Andrew Klute. Coach Klute, welcome to the pod. Andrew Clute: Thank you for having me. Chris Whittaker: Yeah, it's you know clue. Chris Gilliam: tell us a little bit about yourself, Andrew. Andrew Clute: Sounds good. this is my seventh year in the MHS PLA, eighth year teaching at Onstead, and I just finished my 10th year teaching total. each year in the in the association, learned a lot of things. We started from our very first meet at Grass Lake, not knowing to bring tall socks, to now we have things figured out and have a good set. plan for what our season's gonna look like. So a lot of growth, a lot of learning from everyone within the association and continuing to improve each year. Chris Whittaker: lot of fun with Coach Clute, right? Being at Dexter, right? When Coach Gillum when he was at Adrian, right, Onstead is close to that. So he w Coach Clute was kind of part of our southeast Michigan contingent here of coaches. Right. Chris Gilliam: Yeah. Chris Whittaker: and spent a lot of time with him. talked with him and Coach Clute and I even had a little exhibition meet at our place a few years ago where he brought his his lifters up and we had a meet together on our stage and it was a good time. Chris Gilliam: Please. Chris Whittaker: It's a good time. All right. So we're gonna get into you know breaking down different things here when it comes to accessory work. So part one. Is the basics and importance segment of accessory work? So first thing defining the role. what exactly, how would you guys define the difference between main lifts, main competition lifts, squat bench deadlift, supplemental exercises like pause squats or other supplemental techniques, and true accessory work, like bicep curl. Coach Clute, since you're our guest, why don't you start with this one? kind of how do you distinguish between the three different classifications there? Mainlift, supplemental or secondary, and then accessory. Andrew Clute: I think of the main three lifts as our main lift. your supplemental to me is changing up your bench, your squat, your deadlift. whether that's an incline bench, whether that's a pause squat or a tempo squat or a box squat, your deadlifts just changing from sumo to conventional or vice versa. I think of it that way. To me, true accessory work. is where you're going to start breaking down individual pieces of the movement to to improve those to improve the main lift. So anything that goes to really specifically aiding the main lift to me has always been an accessory work. But if but different variations, the conjugate in me kind of combines the first two and then the as just kind of yeah the main lift is the main lift even though we might be safety bar squatting or cambered bar squatting or anything like that. To me that's still the main lift. And then true accessory work is when we're getting into our hamstrings, glutes, and specific movements. Chris Whittaker: Yeah, getting into specific weak point Chris Gilliam: Good. Chris Whittaker: where Coach Gillum. Chris Gilliam: Y well, I mean pretty similar. I mean to me, you know, your big three, that's your main lift. and then if you're gonna do some type of variation of that, like you know, if you're gonna change the bar on the squat like you mentioned, that's definitely a supplemental exercise because it's not exactly what you would do in a meet. and then, you know, When it comes to like bench press, things like that, you know, if it's still a bench press type movement, that's a supplemental exercise. So that would be, you know, like your close grip bench, maybe board presses, things like that. But as far as accessory, that's where I would kind of categorize dumbbell work. It's still working the chest. or honestly if you're gonna be doing specific tricep work. that's geared towards the bench. That's an accessory exercise. So that's kinda how I I split it up. Yeah, I think the harder ones, in my opinion, to find technically s accessory work is like within the deadlift, because there's only so many variations of things you can do. you know, but you know, f I feel like it's common. I don't know how you guys feel, but I feel like RDLs kind of cover squat and bunch. you know, Chris Whittaker: Squad and deadness, yeah. Chris Gilliam: they're you know, it's a hinge movement and so it falls into that category. It's probably more of an accessory for squat, but a supplemental for deadlift, if that makes any sense. So I don't know. But I like rack poles too, as a supplemental for deadlift. I find that it just it's harder for me to come up with accessory on deadlift. It just it is. But the others I think it's pretty easy to do. Chris Whittaker: Yeah, I think most of the same the same things that are gonna to me that are gonna make your squat go up probably are going to assist in the deadlift as well. So a lot of those things I think cover both both of those specific lifts. Chris Gilliam: Mm-hmm. Chris Whittaker: the the next thing, Coach Gillam, the boring stuff. This one is your question. Chris Gilliam: Yeah, so high schoolers love to max out, right, Coach Clue? Especially Andrew Clute: Yes. Chris Gilliam: the boys. how do you convince a sixteen year old that face pulls or lunges or different variations of planks are just as important as a heavy squat? Andrew Clute: I guess I think this is something that I probably need to improve on just a little bit. I've been lucky that our culture within our school lifting and our after school lifting with our power lifting has been that they they've gotten it. I've been very lucky and maybe I've just been hammering it for the past eight years that these this is how we're going to get a bigger bench, this is how we're gonna get a better squat and everything. that if we start chasing these movements, that we can get better. results when we go to max the other movements. So I I've I've been kind of lucky that thankfully the culture has been pretty good at Onstead that we we want to do the work to get those better numbers and we'll see better numbers. I think that's been kind of the biggest thing is kids have bought in and they see where at the beginning of the year they might be benching two twenty five and and when we test again around Christmas time they're getting three forty or two excuse me two forty five. they're seeing that good gain from doing all the little work that we've been asking them to do. Chris Gilliam: Yeah. How about you, Coach Whitaker? Chris Whittaker: When when it comes to these things, and and obviously it's not tell once and then they take it, right? It's more of like I like to look at it and say, show them where the lift is breaking down and then saying, Okay, these are the things that we do that can help fix that area. you know, face pulls is one of our examples here. So If we are constantly kind of falling forward on our way up in the squat and losing our upper back tightness, well, what's a exercise that's going to specifically target the area to make that area stronger so it can hold up better under load? Because that's our limiting factor. So and that that's how I sell it to them. You know, use the the use the technique breakdown or the the the physical breakdown within the main lift to show them where their weak points are and then show them how those accessory movements that we program attacks those weak points. And wait, I'll say this really quiet for those that's how it works for the overall athlete too. It's not just the power lifters. You build a stronger Chris Gilliam: Okay. Chris Whittaker: all around human. It works for everybody. Andrew Clute: Yes, it does. Chris Gilliam: Yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, looking back at the examples that were given, like I've I've honestly I think face pulls are probably the most underrated, undervalued exercise because it aids every lifter and all three of the lifts. You know, w whether it's coming down to shoulder stability, you know, when you're laying down on the bench or, you know, just keeping your your chest big and tall and your shoulders back, so you can hold better form on the squat and deadlift. I mean, I think that that's something that, you know, probably I didn't use as much when I was first starting out in powerlifting as a coach because, you know, of a variety of reasons, but, you know, you just learn as you go. you know. I think you have to have the right equipment too, obviously. Obviously face poles are easier if you got some type of cable system. You know. If you don't, it's pretty hard to do So Chris Whittaker: Do them with bands all the time. Choke a banana. Andrew Clute: Yeah. I've used bands quite a bit within Chris Gilliam: Yeah, bands are have become a lot more popular. Yeah, that's right. Chris Whittaker: Donnie Thompson hates face pulls though for some reason. I don't know why my guy. My guy Donnie Thompson. Probably because he invented that bow tie that helps keep your back tight. He likes to do single arm kettlebells Chris Gilliam: Yeah. Could be. Chris Whittaker: snatches or fat bell snatches. He hates face Chris Gilliam: Yeah. Chris Whittaker: pulls for some reason. I love them. I'm I I I I did dynamic upper today and I I did face pulls in a warm-up. Chris Gilliam: Okay. Good. Chris Whittaker: the why is the next one. for beginners, right, or you know, high schoolers, they they just want to lift heavy, we know that, right? why shouldn't these kids just simply practice the competition lifts every day? how does accessory work build the overall athleticism and coordination compared to just doing the main lifts? Andrew Clute: I've always I've been working hard the past probably four years to make sure the kids understand what GPP is, the general physical preparedness, and try to explain that we want to do some of these accessory lifts lighter to try to develop some endurance so that way when you are battling on your your third rep of squat, bench or deadlift, whichever one it may be, and you're kind of stuck in that position, I always think of bench press where you've got it about a third of the way up. But you need that endurance, you need that extra little oomph to push you through to get it the the bar to continue momentum and get it back up. that's been one of the main things that I've tried to hit to the kids is we need to do this, A, to build some explosiveness, lighter weight, try to move it fast, but B to be able to stay in that fight and not just get there and sink right away. Let it let the momentum keep riding. Yeah, you might be stuck for just a split second, but it if you can physically stay in the fight. I think that that goes a long way to being able to successfully get that last rep of whatever lift it may be. I find that that has kind of helped the kids see the bigger picture of it's not just being strong, it's being able to have the endurance to to do those things. Chris Whittaker: On a weak point. Chris Gilliam: Yeah, I mean I I don't know. To me it's like, you know, probably boys that could bench press as often as they want. Not everybody they always enjoys squat or deadlift workouts, you know, but you know, I think that Variety. allows them not to get bored with their training. I think that's super important. Especially, you know, kids are lifting year round now or they should be, right? And so, you know, it's in super important to have a a plethora of accessory work so that they're not bored all the time. And so, you know, sometimes, you know, if it's not power lifting season, I I I liked to just do hex bar deadlift. instead of, you know, a straight bar, you know, and because, you know, we're not training for the actual deadlift for a me. so and the honestly I wouldn't do a lot of full deadlift pulls in the off season. We w we would focus more on the supplemental ones. You know, block pulls or rack pulls, R DLs obviously, you know, and if you ever get one, I mean, you know, the you know, I think probably the best things that people can invest in is like either a G H the why am I drawing a blank. Chris Whittaker: Reverse hyper. Chris Gilliam: Yeah, the reverse hyper because I just think that it you get a good workout from that and you don't tax out the spine so much. You know? so I think For me, I that's how I would explain it to the kids. The why is, you know, you do the same thing all the time, you're gonna have a lot more times where you plateau and the longer you plateau, you eventually have a dip down. And so if you wanna keep growing, you know, you'll have a plateau maybe for a little bit, but then it'll there'll be growth and you'll d provide that by having accessory work in there. So That's what I would focus on when talking to And your real serious ones, they understood that. The other ones, they didn't. Just how it goes. Andrew Clute: Yeah. Chris Whittaker: Normally, I'm going to preach to you from the holy gospel according to Simmons. And this is in it's in there. My answer is in there. But we're gonna go back to the one that he took it from, right? The science and practice of strength and conditioning. And those Russians said the biological law of 72 hours. We need Ideal situation, ideal world, we need 72 hours between intense training sessions of the same body part. Thus is what split the conjugate system into the maximal effort and the dynamic effort 72 hours apart. do we always have 72 hours within our program? No, because we work at a five-day week instead of a seven. but we do space it out the best we can. and within that. Right. We are doing different variations as we've talked about before, but we're allowing that time in between for recovery and alternating between max effort work and dynamic work, like Coach Clute alluded to. So that keeps them from having an overuse injury. But for me, I if I if if they if they squat every day, bench every day, like that's why like the sorry to sore necks, right? But the squat Tober BS and I know, right? They change it up. One day you're heavy, one day you're doing reps of the right. That's not that's not that's not how they do they do it. Right. And I choose to go with the one that you know, gonna have to put the explicit content on this one, coach, that kicked everybody's ass, right, and had less injuries. Chris Gilliam: Mm-hmm. Chris Whittaker: that's the that's the route I choose to go. with it. So that's why they can't just train the big three all the time. We gotta rotate them in and out. Right. And I think that makes sense. Plus most of us, well I think all three of us, right? And most of our coaches that are listening, we don't just train powerlifters. We're working with athletes too that are gonna play other sports. So we gotta have that. We gotta have the recovery. The next one. The next one's coach Hill. Chris Gilliam: Yes. we're gonna talk about yeah. Injury prevention. what's the most common injuries or postural issues you see in high school power lifters, Coach? Andrew Clute: I see quite a bit of the kneecaving is a lot that I see at Onstead. a lot of especially in squat, especially with our ladies, we have a lot of our knees going in and out, sometimes three times on their way up in the squat. That's one of the more common ones. injury wise, we've had a lot of lower back lately, that we're trying to work on and add to our programming. The kneecaving I I enjoyed or one of my go-tos is adding a band around their knees to work on trying to get the glutes more active to to force their knees out and get them in that pattern. And I find that normally after about a couple of weeks of doing that, we've strengthened it and the habit's kinda gone. So it's that's but it's been kind of successful for that. And the low back, we're we're just trying to work more reverse hypers, we're trying to work more low back raises and everything like that and and purely some stretching at the end of our lifts too to try to help. Chris Gilliam: Yeah, Coach Whitaker. Chris Whittaker: Yeah, I mean all those things show weaknesses, right? So like to take Andrew's example, right? Knees caving in, that shows glute weakness, right? And as he alluded to, a band around the knees pushing out on them to help fire it. I I would go a step further in like with us, our injury reduction plan falls within our warm-ups. Right. The winning Matt Winning style warm-ups. We've talked about them in other programming episodes and talked about them at length. But how we warm up with three to four sets of twenty, twenty-five reps, all right, moving fast at low intensity volume, builds connective tissue density, gets extra reps and work in our weak points, because we're doing two weak points and a movement pattern every day. I think that's the biggest thing for us to correct all of those, whether it's the the A Bduction for the knees caving in, The face pulls for the rounding back, the lat work, the hamstring curls to help r you know, build the strength of the hamstrings and strengthening connective tissues in the knees. Like that's the biggest thing that we do to help keep our our athletes healthy, I think. And r biggest cause of our injury reduction in our programs tenure are those warm ups for sure. Chris Gilliam: Yeah, I mean the one thing that I went through I know you guys use bands. I used bands for warming up the legs, you know, different things. That was a system that our kids did, along with some dynamic, you know, movements. But we invested in hip circles. All right. Hip circles was our warm up every day. We did it before meets and we had this you know, series of like six different movements we did that basically, you know, went thirty to forty feet in one direction, thirty to forty feet back, and they they did all that stuff. Get those glutes fired up and activated. We did it every day. And that was that fixed a lot of our kneecaving in. Just that alone. but you know, we also taught some cues like spread the floor, you know, with your feet. so that you're engaging your quads more and pushing those knees out. but that's not necessarily an exercise or an accessory. but as far as like rounded shoulders, which you see that a lot, you know, we would focus on, you know, rear delt exercises. So it could have been, you know, lying prone and doing like some shoulder exercises with dumbbells. Or with bands. so you know, we focus on that because usually that rounded shoulder, yes, face poles can help with that as well. but you know, we also would focus and target more of the the shoulders, not just the upper back and that. So yeah, that's the stuff we would do on on those things. Chris Whittaker: We're moving on to part two. Lift specific troubleshooting, identifying weaknesses. We talked about some of these things here already, kind of how we identify some weakness. But first thing is, you know, the diagnostic check. I I think this is my question, coach. how can a lifter identify where and why the main lift is failing? how do you translate the technical breakdown or sticking point into specific accessory prescription? let's mix it up. Coach Gillum, kick us f off first with this one. Chris Gilliam: okay. well the first thing I would try and teach the kids is to know the the difference. Like are you slow out of the hole or are you slow at lockout, you know, and and so or if it's off the chest, but you know, it's I'll focus on squat right now. If you're slow out of the hole, okay, like the the reality is is some people are always gonna be slow. My oldest daughter was always kinda slow out of the hole, but it was steady. Okay, and then like she had a really good lockout. So for her it was really hard for me to judge like what exactly to do to I tried to get her more explosive out of the hole, but it just it never happened and mainly because she squatted a lot of weight. Like you're not gonna be super fast out of the hole with a heavy load on. but for other kids, like they were fast out of the hole. But then they they really struggled at lock out. So, you know, sometimes It was you know, a lot of video was needed in order to address it 'cause you you're not gonna see each individual kid all the time. So we used to videotape a lot of stuff, but you know, just that that was the important thing to me. Like where where are you weakest, where are you slowest? Okay, and there's a variety of exercises that you can do depending on what it is, and we'll get into more of those later. How about you, Clute? Andrew Clute: I've I leaned heavily on video as well, especially being newer to the sport and learning quite a bit. Probably five years ago, we leaned heavily on okay, let's get an iPad, let's let's record this, let's see what's going on and break it down. And there's a number of times I sent videos to Wit like, okay, what could you do better here? Was this a hitch? Help me learn how to help my athletes. which then also kind of helped those kids start helping other kids. within the room. So I I think video is really huge for us and being able to slow things down. like for my my example is kind of bench press. There's a lot of kids lately that have been bringing the bar as they're pressing up, it's going up towards their eyes. that's one that I've been starting to see quite a bit of that we're able to either see on video or in the moment and being able to help those kids, okay, we want to actually try to shove our our back into the bench a little bit more and push that bar away from us, squeeze our hands a little bit more. the one with bench press I the cue I've always liked is you want to pull the bar apart and bring it back together, even though yes, your hands aren't gonna actually move on the bar. But being able to diagnose those things video has been a huge help for us at Onstead, being able to see it and slow it down and break it apart that way. Chris Gilliam: Do you do you find that kids struggle more off their chest or more with lockout or is it even? Andrew Clute: It's about even now. we were pretty heavily on the getting it off our chest. We were a a lot of go down and sync and not really come back up. but lately we've been kind of more mixed. Chris Gilliam: Okay. Chris Whittaker: It's the Chris Gilliam: Coach Whitaker, how about you? Chris Whittaker: showing them usually as we kind of alluded to earlier, it it the technique break is usually where your weak point's gonna be. Right. We've talked a ton about the upper back. if they're falling forward in the hole, right? They're not able to stabilize, right? And sometimes like Gillam mentioned, right, sometimes it's just the need to drive home the cues a little bit more. It might not be a actual muscle weakness as much as it is a technique flaw. but showing them like, all right, hey, you can't stay upright, right? You fall forward at the bottom of the squat. Well, that's a a midsection and a core stability thing that we need to work on. A lot of that's cueing and having them push against the belt. very rarely have I had it where I know everybody says more core, more core, more core, right? But if we can get to engage, like usually it's the glutes and hamstrings in the squat that are the limiting factor, right? you know, Louis the the posterior chain is usually gonna be the weak factor in the squat and and deadlift. That what I've seen. The bench press it's triceps, triceps and lats. So like the example Clute mentioned, Chris Gilliam: yeah. Chris Whittaker: like drifting back over our face. You know, as he talked about, I would do the same thing. Spread the bar, that's gonna engage the lat. So then now press it in a straight line. Then if you have the tricep strength, you finish it. Chris Gilliam: Yeah, and I mean going back to something like Clute was talking about earlier where you've been experiencing more like lower back issues with kids. I don't know if this is the case for your kids, but my experience with kids that I've coached with in the past that had the lower back issues, there was usually an issue with like hips and it was usually hip flexibility. they weren't able to get to that certain point and then their lower back overcompensated. for the weaker hips. And so that's where to me one of the the exercises I like to address that. And I know it might seem weird or different, but I like doing barbell hip thrust Andrew Clute: Yeah. Chris Gilliam: because like it was glued activated, but it was also the driving of the hips upward, which even though it's like you're laying kinda on your back and all that stuff, it it doesn't specifically correlate. There there's that little bit of movement and that little bit of focus and target that I found that that helped with kids a lot. So Andrew Clute: Yep. I agree. I've I've used that and the single leg hip thrust. Chris Gilliam: okay. Single eggs. Gotcha. Chris Whittaker: 'Cause you get around around that weakness and then get the specifically target on the unilateral side. Like, all right, which which w side is not firing as well. And they can feel Chris Gilliam: Mm. Chris Whittaker: that. I Andrew Clute: Mm-hmm. Chris Whittaker: can feel that for sure. Chris Gilliam: Okay, good. I've never seen the single leg hip thrust, so I'll have to have to look into that. That's pretty cool. Chris Whittaker: All right. So the next thing we're talking about is a very common flaw in the squat, Coach Gillum. Chris Gilliam: so you want me to go into details or am I asking what am I doing? Okay, I'm I'm Chris Whittaker: I think it's your question. We don't Gillam writes the questions, Clute. he's he schedules the guests. I come on and try to not screw it up as a host. Chris Gilliam: I'll be honest. Chris Whittaker: but normally we have numbered questions. Chris Gilliam: I'm just I'm I'm just I'm rolling with the flow here, Chris Whittaker: Ha ha ha. Chris Gilliam: so all right. So all right. So okay, I gotcha. All right, so Coach Clute, Coach Whitaker, very common flaw in high school lifters under heavy loads is some people call it the stripper squat. It's where the hips shoot up first and the chest falls forward. And Coach Whitaker alluded to it. Or or the knees are caving inward, right? We've seen that in a lot of varieties with kids. I mean, we see it in their warm up sets, but they're still strong enough to get through it with some Andrew Clute: Mm-hmm. Chris Gilliam: kids, right? What ex specific accessory movements do you program to fix these? All right. and how do you teach a young lefter to properly engage their quads and glutes to drive out of the hole? 'Cause I I honestly the The quads are are also very important with this. Andrew Clute: like you said earlier, a big phrase of mine that you'll probably hear me say every lower body lift day or at a meet is split the floor. That to me that activates everything. That and they can feel it too. They can, okay, just stand here and squat and then okay, stand here and literally try to sometimes I'll put a piece of paper down just so they can physically see that okay, I need to rip this piece. And when they feel it, they can feel their glutes, their quads, their hamstrings, everything activate. And I I I try to sell it to them like, hey, you you're gonna gain an extra five pounds if you do this every time. You'll feel it, your more muscles will contract, everything's gonna go for you. So that that's what I try to do for that. specifically, like it's already been mentioned, the posterior chain, anything we can do for that is one is the is the main accessories that I like to do. one of the things I I tr I like to do with the kids too is Not when we're in November, December, beginning of January, I like to keep telling the kids, hey, change your squat stance from time to time. Give me a s give me a stance that's wide. Give me a stance that's not narrow, not feet together narrow, but a little bit narrower than what you're used to. So that way we're constantly changing the body to to feel something different that we're not used to and that it can kind of it's a new it's new to the to the system and it it it shocks it just a little bit and it helps them feel a little bit more comfortable in their normal stance and their body's used to it a little bit more. So that that's just kind of what I like to do to to mix things up from time to time is okay if you're if you normally a narrow squatter, let's go wide. If you're normally a wide, let's go narrow and just kind of change it up. Chris Gilliam: Okay. Awesome. Coach Whitaker. Chris Whittaker: I think the biggest thing and the biggest causes of this is two things, technique and load. So to me, if they're in getting and falling into those positions, that means that the load is too heavy for them to execute proper technique. So strip it back, all the things that have been mentioned, cues, box squatting all the time really helps us to drive those home with the kids. and then we rebuild it from there as to what they are capable of. Right. Like if it's if they're skidding it where they're having all that, they they don't have the strength to be able to execute the movement correctly. So we drop the load, re queue, and keep building the correct patterns again and again and again. Chris Gilliam: Gotcha. Yeah, I mean we're probably all doing pretty similar things. I mean the one thing I would say for me, like with the knee caving in, I talked about like using the hip circle. Well, if they still had issues, like and wasn't fixing some kids, it just takes longer to get them, right? We could definitely address the load amount, change the the load that they're using. But one thing I would also do is certain kids, like their warm-up sets on squat, they would still use the hip circle. That way they had to overly emphasize pushing those knees out during their warm-up sets. And it was a way of making them focus more on spreading the floor and engaging the quads. Because in order to do that, that's the only way that hip circle was gonna keep them from their knees coming together. Right, and they have to force it out. and so we we would do that with kids and sometimes no matter what, that's how we started a season. 'Cause I wanted to fix habits before they got to be too big of an issue. Especially if they're kids that I hadn't had in the weight room and they just were coming out for the power lifting team, you know. so that's something. Another thing, like for as far as the falling forward, I don't know if you guys have ever done They're painful and they suck, but I used to use a lot of zerker squats or zercher squats. Andrew Clute: Yep. Chris Gilliam: I found those I use those as a supplemental for squat, but an accessory for deadlift, if that makes any sense. Because you're full you better have really good upright body. Like if you don't, the weight's just gonna take you right down, so Like it it's super important and for those that don't know what that is, that's holding the bar right in between and the elbow crease and you're holding it upright and you're performing a squat to or just below parallel and coming up and it's not easy and it's not fun. I think my kids hated but they fixed some things. So we would periodically throw those in there. Chris Whittaker: You know, I might program those. I might program those in. I was thinking about what the Max Effort Lower movement's gonna be this week, you know? And Chris Gilliam: Mm-hmm. Chris Whittaker: maybe I might throw those in, glue or Gillum. I like doing them with the yoke Chris Gilliam: Yeah, they're good. Chris Whittaker: bar. Put the yoke the safety squat bar in and grab the safety squat bar, Chris Gilliam: Okay. Chris Whittaker: or the pad bar. But Chris Gilliam: Yeah. Chris Whittaker: that might be what our kids are doing for max effort lower tomorrow. I'll send you a video. Chris Gilliam: Okay, it sounds Andrew Clute: Mm-hmm. Chris Gilliam: good. I mean it's they better adjust their load a little bit. Chris Whittaker: yeah. Max every day. They gotta work up. Andrew Clute: What? Chris Gilliam: Yeah, you gotta work up, but yeah. Chris Whittaker: And we'll we'll do for triples tomorrow. Chris Gilliam: Yeah, for sure. It it'll be yeah, it'll be a good good time for them, that's for sure. All right, coach. Chris Whittaker: All right, the bench press, right? And and building that shoulder stability specifically in the bench press, right? We see a lot of the, you know, flare and prey when it comes to the the bench press, Chris Gilliam: Yeah. Chris Whittaker: right? Where their elbows flare out instantly, right? Which puts a ton of stress on the shoulder, right? And they get stuck, right? They have no ability to drive their triceps. to build a big burn safely, what accessories do you recommend for developing lat tightness, shoulder stability, and tricep lockout strength without destroying the athlete's rotator cuffs? Coach Kalute. Andrew Clute: one of my main ones that I like is a chest supported dumbbell row. I really like it with kids that are purposeful with their lifting. So we'll we'll be chest supported. And this is where if we have done a lot with our shoulders to take that ease, we'll go more neutral grip and we'll just pull it up and try to be in that same bar path position. So don't be pulling it up here or down to our ribs. Just try to try to know what that bar path is and try to replicate that. just going basically opposite of what you would a bench. So if a bench you're trying to press away, this I wanna just try to pull up and squeeze right at the top. That's one of my favorite ones that I like to do and have programmed just about every week. Chris Gilliam: All right. Good. Chris Whittaker: sort of horizontal. Chris Gilliam: for me, I mean, if I'm focusing just on the shoulders. How it do pr pretty much similar things that Andrew just talked about. I mean the triceps. I mean, I don't know. I I'm a little mixed on triceps. You know, you can do cable stuff, but I like to do things that mimic the movement as much as possible because the reality you don't bunch like this you bunch Andrew Clute: No. Chris Gilliam: like this, you know. So I like to do Things that are more extension based, I guess, is how I would look at it. I'll mix it in. I mean, you know, like to do dumbbell tricep extensions. either both arms at the same time with a heavy dumbbell or we can focus on one arm at a time. obviously if the you can see which arm's a little weaker when you do the one at a time. You know, so focus on the triceps with that, but it as far as shoulder stability, I mean, I think the rear delts are ignored too much, especially with lifting in general. and if it wasn't until I had some shoulder injuries playing college football that I focused on my rear delts more and that helped. I mainly did it just so I could keep playing. You know, because if it was more of a, you know, not a cure thing, but just to keep me so I could still keep playing. and then I just kinda kept doing stuff as I moved moved on it with training and you know, we've all seen those boys that, you know, I can't I don't even know if I can mimic but the you know, they got the forward dealt movement. Like there's no rear delt. It's like you know, so I I like to do a lot of prone stuff to focus on on that. So, you know, to me that's front and side delts, a lot of movements already work those a lot. but you guys ever heard of Arnold Press? Yeah. I Andrew Clute: Yep. Yep. Chris Gilliam: love Arnold Press. and then, you know, shout out to one of your coaching colleagues, Andrew, Dan Lopez. He introduced me to Six Way Shoulders. I don't know if he's talked to you about those. So six way shoulders is like a lateral to the front to a raise, you know, six different Andrew Clute: Yep. Chris Gilliam: movements, you know, and so we would do some of those, you know. those were more for the side and front delts. but you know, we we just kind of find a variety of things. But like that that's the key to me. You just gotta develop the whole shoulder capsule as much as you can. So a lot of bandwork helps with that, like the band pulls. Cause Andrew Clute: Yep. Chris Gilliam: that's almost like a mimics the face pulls, you know. Andrew Clute: Mm-hmm. Chris Gilliam: So like do those a lot and I mean you can I've seen so many different things. I you know, I'm not saying any one of them's better than the other. And just change it up. Mix it up. Make it better for everybody. boredom will kill all workouts. Chris Whittaker: Mm-hmm. Chris Gilliam: You know, that's the key. Andrew Clute: Yeah. Chris Whittaker: Mm-hmm. lats horizontal rows. You can even get into like pull down or pull over to help build that. Chris Gilliam: Yeah. Chris Whittaker: for us the ro rotator or the shoulders and rotators, we're always we always program within our accessory lanes, right? We're gonna work a horizontal row, we're gonna work triceps, we're gonna work traps or shrug variation. Or we're gonna do some sort of rotator or scap movement within all that. Side ab, bicep curl. Those are our six accessory categories that we do on a upper day. we do our pull ups on the lower day because it's traction after the compression. Chris Gilliam: yeah. Chris Whittaker: so with that, we're gonna do some sort of whether it's blackburns, Right now we got Cuban press running in the in the cycle, squeeze, chest supported, squeeze the upper back, rotate out, back, rotate down. to help within the shoulders. And then of course with triceps, all the things that we've already mentioned. Our secondary lift on a upper day or a supplemental lift is almost always some sort of tricep variation. Close grip, two board. Cold script two board. I like the JM press. you know, some people, some of our sometimes our kids don't execute that very well, so I'm hesitant sometimes to program it. but I like the JM press personally to develop the triceps within the within that. So I think all those those are good things. All right, and Coach Gillum, the deadlift now. specifically fixing the hips at lockout. Chris Gilliam: Okay, yeah, so we'll start with Whitaker on this one. High schoolers, we you know, it you gotta have a pretty good deadlift. we all love the deadlift at the one, it means that we're near the end of the meet, right? And two, it usually is what separates the pretenders from the contenders, right? Chris Whittaker: Yeah. Chris Gilliam: so but I can usually tell, you guys can probably usually tell whether it's your own lifters or any lifter. you're gonna be able to tell if they're gonna get it or not within a certain time frame, right? because when you see their hips rise too fast off the floor, leaving their lower back to do all the work, like we probably all instantly wanna say, put it down Andrew Clute: Yeah. Chris Whittaker: Yeah. Chris Gilliam: you know. because they can't lock out the weight at the top. And if they do, it's probably not gonna be worth the pain they're gonna be in. But for any lifter, Coach Whitaker that's struggling with their speed off the floor or their lockout part, one or the other. how do you use accessories like Romanian deadlifts or hamstring curls or upper back work to keep their spine neutral and their hips engaged? What are some of the things you do to make that happen? Chris Whittaker: think all those things work together in the chain, right? That the complete posterior chain, right? From the top all the way down. I go back to the statement I made with the squat. If they under that load, if it causes that scenario, that load is too heavy for them to move correctly. So therefore, we're dropping back and building up. so We're almost always gonna get it to where they can execute the movement correctly with technique and then go from there. we don't just hey from the meat, we'll let it let it ride, you know, spinal flexion to the max. None of that, right? Like if we we'll have kids that'll get credit for a lift, but they'll come off and say, Yeah, yeah, I was rounded way too far forward. Right? 'Cause the idea is too much of that we believe will lead to an issue. you know so specifically, right, like if we wanna get off the floor, right? Traditional wisdom says that is kind of a quad thing, right? So pulling from an elevated block where you were standing on an elevated block, attacking those quads with our single leg variant. To help build that and build the connection to that. I think mostly getting off the floor usually is a setup thing. Like if if they're not setting up tight and locking into that bar and causing the bar to float, you're gonna lose power to the floor right there. Chris Gilliam: Yeah. Chris Whittaker: but yeah, there's the strength in the in the quads is it's kind of the starting there, and then the hips have to finish that, and that's where those RDLs come in heavy to help. push the hips through, kinda like what we've already talked about with like the glute bridge or the the glute raise, and all that. Like that ability and I don't think sometimes people don't think of it and the fact that the glutes and hamstrings tightening and pushing the hip forward, if that happens as the bar is rising, we're gonna lock it out faster and it's gonna be a safer lift. 'Cause our hips are underneath us and we're using all of the musculature of our lower body. So yeah. That's kinda how we we we program in. They're always there pretty much and work on technique. Chris Gilliam: Good. Coach Clute? Andrew Clute: I would piggyback on technique. Technique is huge and I believe in teaching the kids the hip hinge the right way from from day one that they step in the weight room is one of the biggest things that is helpful. The being able to get in that position. I always tell the kids have a have a proud chest, a big chest in in all the hip hinge movements that we do. I feel like that sits us in that squat position nice and tight, ready to go. Like again, piggybacking. like coach said, that's what's gonna get it off the floor more than anything. And not having too much weight. I think that's huge. I like starting from blocks as well. one of the things I like to do that kind of helps the middle to finish of the deadlift is using bands, more accommodating resistance that we can do to to help that finish. Q wise I've always liked squeeze the cheeks, tuck the chin and kinda roll your shoulders back to kind of finish the the deadlift movement. But those are kind of the main things for me. Chris Gilliam: Okay, so for clarity, are when you guys are talking about block poles, you're talking about standing on them. Okay, Andrew Clute: Yes. Chris Whittaker: We do we do both. Chris Gilliam: so for me and some for me and some other people, that would be called a deficit pole. Chris Whittaker: Deficit deadlift, yeah. Chris Gilliam: Yes, yeah, it'd be a deficit deadlift because there are block poles where the weights are sitting on a block, and that's what you would do to address a lockout issue. Okay. And so I just wanna make sure like our listeners, our viewers are understanding I I wanted to make sure we had clarity on that. So you guys are talking deficit polls and then do you guys implement like any block polls at all when it comes to the lockout phase? Chris Whittaker: We're running those in a speed cycle right now. We got we we have D C blocks, two inch Chris Gilliam: Okay. I mean 'cause Chris Whittaker: D C block. And we're pulling from a four inch block. We're getting ready to drop it to a one block. Two block, one block, Chris Gilliam: Nice. Chris Whittaker: off the floor, cycle back around. Once we Chris Gilliam: Nice. Chris Whittaker: get closer to the power lifting season, our you know, everybody everybody pulls from the floor when we get closer to powerlifting season 'cause this is easier to program. Chris Gilliam: Yeah, and for our listeners, our viewers, you know, an alternate thing for block poles, if you don't have blocks, would be like rack poles, right? You can set the weight Andrew Clute: Yep, that's what I do. Chris Gilliam: up where it's, you know, slightly below the knees when they get their setup. The only thing I didn't like about rack poles myself from my experience is, you know, it's super hard for kids to get in that blo you know, that tight position. at a at an area that they're not used to being at you know. 'Cause it doesn't matter. They're all gonna have a forward lean to an extent, you know. I found kids getting frustrated with the rack pulls a lot more than the block pulls. But yeah, I got you guys. All right, good. Chris Whittaker: 'Cause some of the racks also won't go low enough. Like our our racks running don't go low Chris Gilliam: Yeah, you got that right. Chris Whittaker: enough to get it below the knee. So I don't have a program I program Chris Gilliam: Yeah. Chris Whittaker: the blocks. That that's why we got the blocks. And before we had blocks, we would lay a bumper plate down. So your your thick bumper Chris Gilliam: Mm-hmm. Chris Whittaker: plate is a four inch, four inch lift. So that's why we take it off there and and do the same thing. Or stack up stall mat. Chris Gilliam: Yeah, bumper plates I think work really well to be honest. So yeah. Okay, good. Chris Whittaker: All right. Are we ready to move to part three, gentlemen? Chris Gilliam: Yes. Chris Whittaker: High school versus adult lifters. The transition. high school schedule, right? Often our high school lifters juggle time in the gym with other, you know, school sports, homework, limited recovery tools and methods. how do we program accessory work so they don't burn out? Coach Clute. Andrew Clute: the the a good thing for me is I have a lot of students and powerlifters take my class. So we're able to slow things down and get some of the important lifts that are gonna really help them. And then if they during powerlifting season when they work out after school, that's where we try different things that we might not normally have time to, or we have that chunk of time that we can now take our time, explain it so we can do it right. And we can add that into their workout so they're getting more accessories than what they would if they were in one or the other. but I I think that the more I like to be on Instagram and I find something that someone says, and I add it to a little folder says bench builders or squat builder or a deadlift builder. And I just like to look back at it from time to time and I forgot that we tried that once, it went really well. I need to keep incorporating it. Or, I forgot that I found that and this is gonna be something new and see how the kids like it. Though they normally do well at giving me good feedback on whether they like it or don't like it. So just finding new and different auxiliaries has always been huge for keeping it kids coming back for more and wanting to try new things and get some kind of excited, I really like that one or this one or that. So Chris Whittaker: And you guys are a straight six hour day at Onstead. Andrew Clute: Yep, we I have six classes. Yep. Chris Whittaker: So you see them you see them every day. So you have the ability to kinda wave things in and out. Coach Gillum. Chris Gilliam: Yeah, I mean different places, different types of setups. if we were in season with powerlifting as you kinda talked about, I mean I de you know, one school I had a seventy minute class period, another school I have a fifty some minute class period. You know, so depending on you know, when I had a seventy some minute class period, I would try and if I had kids in class I would let get like their main lift for the day done and then they would would basically, you know, maybe get another accessory or two and then they'd finish up the rest of it at practice and they'd be done before everybody. You know what I mean? when it got to like the fifty minute thing, like sometimes they couldn't get through they could get through a bunch workout, but if we were doing like heavy squat day and you know, a dynamic speed, you know, deadlift thing, they probably only got, you know, one or the other done. So it would all depend on, you know, what I needed to see them at practice. So I tried to keep kids on the same page as much as I can, but if kids were lifting year round, we didn't need to change a whole lot as far as workloads, right? We didn't have to change the accessories or anything. If they were not lifting year round you know, especially early in a sports season. Had a lot of kids that would get like physically fatigued and tired. Right. So adjusting accessory sets and reps kinda became the thing that I would do the most. And that was only because I never tested them on that stuff. So that was the least important stuff. So Chris Whittaker: Yeah. Chris Gilliam: you know, always had to do the big three or, you know, I mainly, you know focused on squat and bench testing and classes. I d deadlift I didn't really do with the classes so much. that was mainly just for the powerlifting season itself. so that's kinda what we do, just adjust. Not try and get to do everything all at once if we can. Everybody was different. Chris Whittaker: It boils down to recovery, right? What can what it Chris Gilliam: Yeah. Chris Whittaker: what what's the saying? It's not what you can do in training, it's what you can recover from. Yeah. So it's you know, for us Chris Gilliam: Yeah. Well and schools have so many days off l that have especially in the wintertime. Let's be realistic. How many times have we been in the middle of powerlifting season and you missed a whole week of practice 'cause of snow days? Chris Whittaker: Yeah. No. No. Chris Gilliam: There's no way those kids are getting burned out. They're hardly getting into a a solid workout routine to stay on track. You know, so it it it's all different. Depending on the time of year and stuff too. All right. Post high school shift. That's me. all right. And y you you guys have both probably experienced it and you guys are both kinda new to it. You're gonna experience more of it as you get older, like me. But you know, as the lifter moves from high school and they're white they're you know, you know they jump as they're getting older. They're just getting stronger. But then, you know, some of they continue the love and passion for it beyond high school, right? Some of them might even do it collegiately nowadays because there's more opportunities. how do lift accessories shift from building muscle and teens to maybe preserving joint health, spinal integrity for older people like ourselves? You know what I mean? Ca I can tell you this, I neglected a lot of stuff when I was their age. And boy, boy, it does it creep up on you as you get a little bit older and a little bit older. I'm finding myself I've you lose flexibility, right? So what are some things that you would say the kids need to focus on as they continue on past high school, Coach Clute? Andrew Clute: I think it becomes okay, this is something you want to continue doing, you want to keep pushing the numbers, you want to keep the powerlifting aspect of it, then you need to be more detailed, you need to be more in tune with what your body needs from you. I would hope that after four years of lifting with any of us, the kids would have a general good ba foundation of understanding powerlifting, and then okay, they want to keep improving their bench press, they need to know. their joints, they need to know all that, what it takes to be good at those lifts and know what auxiliaries they need in the moment. So just keep building their their auxiliaries, just keep learning new ones, keep trying new ones, keep doing the ones that work obviously. but then it's something that I wouldn't have thought about until recently, but your joints, the rest and recovery needed. nutrition that is needed to maintain a healthy body weight and everything like that to during all that I think they the best advice that I could give would be to be more detailed in what you're doing with this. You can't just be a high schooler, stay up till two AM, wake up at six, and eat whatever you want. You need to take every aspect of it more seriously. Chris Gilliam: Yeah. Coach Whitaker? Chris Whittaker: Absolutely. I mean, I agree with Andrew. when we look at like okay, the building muscle piece where appropriate is something that's needed, right? And I and I think that can that needs to continue as we we get older. but rotating movements that allow you And I I think Andrew mentioned it, but we've definitely talked about it throughout this pod, is changing movements enough that you don't get overuse in those joints, right? The shoulders, the hips, the knees, right? and doing things that we can recover from. That's why we box squat all the time. Why? We can recover from it. Right. so I feel like those things really transfer over well to the individual as they get older because they're still they're growing from it. But they're still able to recover from it. I mean, I've I've gone as far like we've run the same stuff with a fifth grader all the way up. The movements are the same. The thing that changes is the load. Right? Like that you know, that fifth grader is gonna do RDLs with you know a 95-pound bar, you know, 95 pounds on a bar, and Our high school seniors gonna do with 225 or 250 or 315. All right, like the a lot of the movements, as long as the movements are stimulating growth, use them. And if you change them enough, like for us every six to eight weeks, when we come back to it's gonna grow again. Mark, because you you kept it in, you used it, got away from it, came back to it, right, as we go through. So I think that's how that's how I would do it. I would continue to program it the same way. Rotating things around to to keep things healthy and allow you to recover. And as long as it's working and keep building strength, let's go. Chris Gilliam: Yeah, I mean the one thing I've kind of found through my own like training and my years of coach and like used to be the the understanding accessory work, you know, high reps kind of mindset. Honestly I've changed more over the years and especially for myself personally, like, you know, if I wanna get in accessory work, I if I'm gonna do high reps, I'm gonna minimize my sets. You know what I mean? But there's validation to doing accessory work that's slightly heavier with you know, so I can do more sets but at lower reps, you know, because it's just too much on my joints as an older person. and the ability to recover quickly is gone 'cause I'm not a teenager or a college Andrew Clute: Yeah. Chris Gilliam: kid anymore, you know what I mean? so I I think that's that for me is probably the the one thing I would say is like You can do similar things, but you have to change your mindset for like the volume. I think you need to understand that as you get older, your volume has to change because what should be forty eight hours could be seventy two or ninety six, you Andrew Clute: Mm-hmm. Chris Gilliam: know, after a really good workout. So Clute doesn't know, but I've started training to compete. So Yeah. Chris Whittaker: Coaches me. Coaches me coming up, Clue. Andrew Clute: Ooh. Chris Gilliam: We're hey, we're gonna throw the challenge out to Clute right now to join us. Next June we plan on going to Montrose High School and competing in a powerlifting meet. We seen Ed Robinson, I did seen Ed Robinson from South Lion there competing this summer. Was talking to him and he said it was put up or shut up time. So instead of telling his kids he just did it and it was fun to watch. He was mad at himself 'cause he missed a couple of attempts, but overall he did a pretty good job. And, you know, we've been talking to all these other guys that still kinda compete, like Denny Reinhart who and Todd Miller, who are both sixty four, sixty five, and they're they're competing and stuff. and so I'm like, you know what? I gotta do something to keep myself focused and motivated. So I I I put that challenge and gauntlet out there for those that wanna do it. And I think I think we might get Derek from Napoleon to join us next year. I mean, he seemed a little intrigued Andrew Clute: I'm sure you would do it, yeah. Chris Gilliam: because you know what's great about it? Even though we're be at the same meat, we're all gonna be in a different age group and a different weight class anyway. So you know, it it'd be no different than Andrew Clute: Yep. Chris Whittaker: Yeah. Yep. Well Clute and I'll be in the same age group. Chris Gilliam: the meat. Yeah. Well Klu's pr he well, he's the him and Derek are probably about the same age group. Chris Whittaker: Yeah. Der Derek Shell, Onstead graduate, Chris Gilliam: So Chris Whittaker: right? Andrew Clute: This is true. Chris Whittaker: Were were you guys were Chris Gilliam: Yeah. Chris Whittaker: you guys in the same same class or you guys were in school at the same time, right? Andrew Clute: Same time, he was one grade above me. Chris Whittaker: I I'm I'll probably Chris Gilliam: Nice. Chris Whittaker: still come in last in our age division and w and weight class. the way the way things Andrew Clute: Yeah. Chris Whittaker: the way things are functioning with me these days. but that that has nothing to do with the training. It it's more of everything around the training Chris Gilliam: No. Chris Whittaker: messing with me there. speaking Andrew Clute: Mm-hmm. Chris Whittaker: of that, right? Well, often when we talk about athletes that come into our program, we talk about their training age versus their biological age. Right. That 18-year-old kid, or that 25-year-old adult or whatever, if they have not been training that long or at all, they have a very young training age, even though their chronological age might be a little higher. should their accessory programming look more like a high schooler's because they're new and they have a young training age? Or do adults require a completely different approach due to recovery differences? Gillum, kick us off first with this one 'cause you probably have the most experience in this with Chris Gilliam: Yeah. Well I I'd say if you're in your twenties, I mean you're you're in your physical prime peak, until you're what in your early thirties as as a man. So, you know, go for it like you know, but you de better have good form and technique or you're gonna hurt yourself. I don't care who you are. Chris Whittaker: Mm-hmm. Chris Gilliam: definitely as you get older you have to adjust and and adapt and then we kinda I kinda talked about that earlier. Like volume has to change, you know. but that, you know, and everybody I talk to, th they say the same, you know, like the volume has to change. or you can go the route of, you know, the intensity of the lift, like, you know, lower the intensity. You know, but if you're in the sport of powerlifting, it's all about the the one rep max, right? You know, so if you're in that mindset or even if you're looking to set five rep goals, you know, like w I wanna be able to do five reps at this much weight, you know. I mean, everybody had a goal at one time to bench like three hundred pounds or whatever. Well then it became three fifteen and so on and so forth. But I think the older you get, it the mindset could be that way for a while, but then I think it kind of becomes well Going much past that weight hurts too much, takes too long to recover. you know, I don't have the stamina, so then maybe you focus on getting more reps at that weight. You know, so the rep PRs are more important, I think, as you get to a certain stage, but you know, everybody's different. I mean, I I think crossfit has kind of changed people's mindset on things as well. mean it's not conducive to power lifting, but they do a lot of power lifting and Olympic tech movements and CrossFit. So they're teaching explosion. They're doing I think they do a really good job with the posterior chain on some of the things that I've seen. You know, but it it's a that's a different animal. But you know, that could be a good basis to start is with some CrossFit stuff 'cause they do a good job teaching those things. How about you, Whitaker? What do you think? Chris Whittaker: I said I I program things very, very similar. It's if we can get growth out of it, like I said before, we're gonna keep it. So even with like this, this person is a young training age, you know, they're they're gonna be asked to do the what they can do. And usually that means you talk about load adjustment. if the volume of our sessions beats the hell out of them to the point where they're not recovering. Well then we just minimum effective dose, right? Like we know our warm up, Chris Gilliam: Yeah. Chris Whittaker: our our low intensity warm up, right? High reps is something that helps build a conditioning base where we can recover. Okay, can they handle the max effort work with a straight bar on their back or the next few times they come in, they're blown up. Okay, maybe we need To belt squat once a month on our our max effort lowers. Like just little little adjustments like that that allow the person to recover. And how do we know if they're recovering? are they breaking records when they come back around? If they're breaking records every time we come back around to a movement, keep going. They're getting better. Like we we we got our one of our one of the ladies I work with. I think, sorry, Kelly O. I don't remember your name or your your age. you probably wouldn't want me to put it out there on the internet anyway. Odds are she won't listen. I know she's in like her 40s. She's older than me. I think she might be 47. I think she might be 10 years older than me. And she trains twice a week within our program. Same stuff that the kids do. And every time she comes back around and she's a runner, she's breaking records. Every time. You know, Phil Jacobs. Chris Gilliam: Nice. Chris Whittaker: Fifty f 55 years old, running the exact same training as what our kids do. Every time he comes back around, breaking records. He's and he's got some things that are starting to fail him from like old sports injuries and stuff. But he he trains it the exact same way as what we program for everybody. Again, as long as we're still growing, we're gonna keep going. Chris Gilliam: Yeah, that's good. Clue? Andrew Clute: I feel the same way as all but you two have said so far. I really think it does depend on who the person is and their personality, what they wanna chase, what they wanna do. you know, some people you just want they wanna just get into lifting and powerlifting 'cause they've they want to try it and some people wanna really compete and push the envelope and get those numbers. So my initial gut response answer to it though is that I would I would program the same as the high schoolers and let's start simple, let's start slow and like Chris said, if we're getting if we're seeing progress, why change it? Is kind of where my gut's at with it. But I do see where if we can keep evolving things and they're safely doing that and picking it up. I'd like to think that the adult could progress a little bit quicker on some of the auxiliaries. because they would have a better understanding, a better connection with their body and all sorts of those things. I would like to think that if they wanted to, they could pick things up quicker than the high schooler could. And maybe understand that this weight, this lift doesn't need a heavy weight. This lift needs to be, you know, a more of a I need to move in the correct way than have a too heavy of a dumbbell in the movement, whatever it may be. but yeah, I think it depends on who the person is. Chris Gilliam: Well, and I think that's the unique thing about conjugate method, right? You got your heavy day and your light day and Andrew Clute: Yep. Chris Gilliam: it kinda helps keep you fresher better. And so I I think that people that are new to it, you know, that would be my suggestion is learn about the different training methods and Andrew Clute: Yeah. Chris Gilliam: seriously consider the the methods that are proven to create strength and endurance, and you know, not burnout. You know, and so that that's something that a new person needs to really take into account. Chris Whittaker: Mm-hmm. So moving into our final segment of the show. Execution and mindset. First thing we're going to talk about, Coach Gillum, is ego. Chris Gilliam: Yeah, I mean we all know that teenagers like to compete to beat their friends, beat their competition as well. coach Clute, how do you coach a high school lifter to use light controlled weights on accessories rather than turning a dumbbell row into a full body max effort lift? Andrew Clute: It's tough. It's very tough. I'm thinking of one of my kids that's very good and very competitive and one of the better ones in the state. And it it's it's pulling teeth. But in the thinking of that kid right now that I have, he's gonna be a junior. I developed a relationship with him when he was a f eighth grader. We had him in the room as an eighth grader and just kept hammering like, I know you want to lift heavier, I know you want to do this, but Trust me, trust me, trust me, trust me. And in developing that relationship and in him seeing results and this past year going to the state meet and being 15 pounds away from being a state champion, he sees it. And so when that kid gets it for me so far in our room, when the kids see, that kid is doing the lighter weight, doing the faster rep because he believes in what I'm telling him, the other kids are kind of falling in line. And so that's that's kind of always been my my try is to find okay, you we all know who the leaders of the room is. and who it's not necessarily the person who's lifting the most weight every time, but it's it's there's leaders within the room, and I and getting those kids on board with what we do has always paid dividends for me. And when those kids aren't on board, it's hurt us as a program. But thankfully we've had more on board than not on board over the years. Chris Gilliam: Yeah, I gotcha. Coach Whitaker? Chris Whittaker: I mean, it just comes down to as Andrew said, building relationships and teaching. Right. If they cannot execute the movement, and I've said it a ton of times on this show, Andrew Clute: Yeah. Chris Whittaker: if they can't execute the movement the way we're teaching them to execute the movement, the weight's too heavy. If they can't execute the movement the way we're teaching them to do the movement for the number of repetitions that we need them to do it for, it's too heavy. If it's they can do it, but And they could do double that amount of reps. Now it's too late. so trying to get them to take pride in the proper execution of the movement. And here's why we need to execute this movement this way. Okay, we're doing the example here. We have was a dumbbell row. Okay, this is our horizontal row movement, specifically designed to target the lats and upper back as we row those dumbbells towards our belly button. If we are not using a weight that allows us to contract the lats and and upper back to bring those elbows back and bring our hands in, we are defeating the purpose of doing the exercise. To me, that's what it comes down to. You wanna compete? Yeah, compete in who can do the best reps. For all ten whatever programmed with the heaviest amount of weight with the best reps. 'Cause if the weight's heavy and the r the technique sucks, eventually that's gonna lead to bad things. Chris Gilliam: Yeah. Well, I mean I I would always let kids know, like, okay, this accessory is to help you with your lockout on bench or, you know, like I would tell them what like the purpose of the accessory was and how it applied to the specific power lifting lift. That's what I would try to do to convince them, like, so it's important that you focus on your technique. So oftentimes I called the speed day a technique day. You know, let's dial in our technique. It's not supposed to be heavy. We're supposed to work on leg drive and explosion and, you know, being fast, you know, with the movement. but under control. You know, so that's that's what I would do. And sometimes that helped with the ego. Sometimes it it didn't. It was always better with girls and boys in my experience, but you know, that's just 'cause that's how it is, you know. Coach, you're up. Chris Whittaker: Alright, RPE rate of perceived exertion and failure. should accessories be pushed to absolute failure, or is this better to leave a few reps in the tank to preserve energy for the main lifts? Does this advice change for adults? So where you at with your accessories, guys? Are you pushing them to absolute failure or are you leaving a reps in the tank? Chris Gilliam: I've done both but yeah, I wouldn't if I did of anything to failure it would be one set. I'm gonna try and do multiple sets personally or with kids, from after going through things and experience wise. I mean, I think sometimes it just comes down to time. what what production can you get within the time that you have and so like I'm not gonna worry about, you know, because you go into failure, some kids are gonna be able to you're doing heavy dips, some kids will be able to do twenty five, thirty of them, you know. It's like, do we have time for for Andrew Clute: Right. Chris Gilliam: all this? So I I always took that into consideration. And Coach Whitaker, you know how how I feel about RPEs. So I'm not big into them, but you know, to me they're just the same as following a percentage. Instead of eighty percent you're giving it an eight. Chris Whittaker: Yeah. Chris Gilliam: So that's how I am. But how about you, Clute? Andrew Clute: I would agree. it depends on for me it depends on how close we are to a meet. and I agree that I would do them on the very last set. I wouldn't do back to back or often or I don't know. I I like going to failure. I think there's pros to it. I think there's a lot of the mental toughness you could kind of work into the equation a little bit with some of it. I so I don't I don't dislike them, but I do, especially as we keep getting three, two, one weeks away from a meet. I really don't want them in my program because I want kids to start building up that being able to go to a meet and have a full tank of everything of gas and ready to go. Chris Gilliam: Yeah. When I would do to failure sets, it was usually off season. I didn't really ever do during the season. But probably the number one thing I did was my example, like heavy dips, you know, bodyweight dips. We used to always keep a chart who could do the most. Kind of like when Coach Furno said with the pull pull ups, right? Coach Whittaker, who could do the most pull ups kind of thing. That's how he would recruit his power lifters, Coach Furno would so Andrew Clute: Mm-hmm. Chris Gilliam: by what Yeah, he he could know how strong they were from watching do pull ups. How about you, Whitaker? Chris Whittaker: Well, we're trying to get a set of an accessory exercise done in roughly thirty seconds. 'Cause that's just how it works for us to be able to rotate our our accessory pairings and superset format and whatnot. that time constraint, like you mentioned, locks us in where we gotta load it because we gotta get to that point of and when I when we think failure, right? What is failure to me and what we want. Failures where that slight breakdown might occur, showing that okay, now it's becoming too heavy. Or, you know, sometimes we'll do the you know forced rep where the spotter will help keep the technique and and finish it. But our direction on all accessories is we have to push them as heavy as possible for the desired number of repetitions that have been programmed. That's that's how we run it. You know, very very rarely are we gonna go, Okay, hey, you're gonna go and do dips until you can't do any more. No, it's gonna be we're gonna do sets of ten and if dips are easy for you, add weight to your body so that when you reach that tenth rep, you're hitting that failure point or that breakdown point to push them the the growth we're looking for. That's just kinda how we Chris Gilliam: No, yeah. Chris Whittaker: do that. tracking progress is next. So on the main lifts, progress is measured by weight on the bar. How should a young athlete measure progress on their accessory movements? I mean, for for me it's the same. Right? Like a and what we'll do is within Team Builder Team builder will estimate a one rep max for a given movement based on whatever we do. So when we program sets of 10, 12, 15, whatever it is, and we generate our report, well, now it shows that estimated one rep max for the we've we've been using bent over dumbbell rose as a a big example right now, right? So even if we program a different number of reps, that estimated one rep max that it calculates for us can be our measure to show progress. Is that going up? Is that trending up? within our accessories and with band stuff, can you do more reps with the same band? Yes, then you got better. Once you hit a certain number of reps with that band, well now it's time to move up to the heavier band. That's how we track progress in accessories. Chris Gilliam: Okay. Clue? Andrew Clute: I we're not able to have team builder or anything like that. So it kinda boils down to either we're writing it down or just be purposeful when you come into the weight room. Be purposeful that, last week when I we did this or last time that we did this exercise, I was using fifty pound dumbbells and that went that I got all the reps and I it wasn't as heavy as I wanted it to be. So this week I need to come in and I need to be using fifty fives or sixties and and And just be purposeful with what your training is. Be aware, be cognizant of what's going on. Don't just be a zombie. he told me to do this many reps. I think I used a fifty and I'll I'm just gonna use a forty five this week. You just be purposeful in what you're doing, I think is one of the biggest things that I could tell somebody to do. Chris Gilliam: Yeah, along the same lines, like all right, if it's sets a ten or whatever the reps are, whate whatever you use like dumbbell wise, you got it, felt good, go up to the next dumbbell set. If you can get those reps a again, you know, we'll keep progressing. Or if it's just weight on a bar or whatever. you know, sam same concept. Progression by adding weight. You know, but you know, when reps start changing that that's different 'cause if your reps are changing, the weight should naturally change anyway. So sometimes you can create the progression for them because you're forcing them to change the the weight. 'Cause general rule of thumb, the lower the reps, the higher the weight, right? Chris Whittaker: Yep. Chris Gilliam: So Chris Whittaker: Yep. And our last one, Coach Gillum, is on time management. Chris Gilliam: All right. everybody only has a certain amount of time they can put through things. So I mean, I guess when you're putting together a program just like we do for the high school kids, it's within a time period that we have in class. Well adults is no different. What how much time do you have available to do stuff? So I personally if I know that my workout's gonna take an hour and a half to an hour and forty five minutes If I don't have that, I try and break it up. So I try and get the f a half hour of stuff done before I go to school each day. That makes sense. And then I'll finish the rest after school or whenever it fits into my schedule later in the day. you know, especially if you're busy with coaching and stuff. We all know how hard it is during football season to get your own personal training in, you know, so that's the one thing that I found is like I needed to get up early. get a third of my workout in. So that'll somebody turn the light on on you and then we can finally see you. I thought we Andrew Clute: Yes, help me. I w I wasn't We do have power here. Yeah. Chris Whittaker: We could see him. Chris Gilliam: were doing a a a different episode. I can't even remember that one movie, but you know that movie where they somebody's watching me. Andrew Clute: Yes. Yeah. Chris Gilliam: But you know, that that's what I I I just try and fit it in the the best way I can. And the weekends are usually the best for me. Like I I'll put my biggest out hardest days on Saturdays and Sundays to be honest nowadays. Where back in the day it's like I'm Monday through Friday, that's just how it's gonna be. You know. And now I'm I'm more like Sunday through Thursday, especially you coach football, right? You know. And maybe during football it's only s Sunday through Wednesday. 'Cause you got multiple games going on. And then you j so I would rotate it based on days. But, you know, you only got so much time you can figure it out and adjust your workout accordingly or your time schedule. What about you, Whitaker? I know you're big into the timers with the kids, but how about yourself personally? Chris Whittaker: Yeah, it's so our our all of our accessory so doing the six different accessory categories with three sets of each movement at the thirty second on, thirty second off, plus a minute and a half to track and move to the next one. It takes us roughly twenty one minutes to get through three sets of each of those movements. So f like for fifteen minutes, like when I get jammed on time, I do the same thing you do, right? I'm gonna knock I'm gonna hit okay. I'm gonna hit these two things because that's all I have time for. And then on another day, and you know, I highly recommend coaches. I know Gillum has one. I don't know, clue. If you don't have one, I highly recommend this, especially with baby number two on the way. Build a home Chris Gilliam: Mm-hmm. Chris Whittaker: gym. Phil Jacobs gave me that advice a long time ago, and it is huge because there's no travel. Chris Gilliam: Mm. Chris Whittaker: We all get sick of the same weight room walls that we're in day in and day out all the time. So being able to have that space where you go, mine's in my basement. The only thing that kinda sucks right now is the kids' rooms are on that same they're over top of that basement. So depending on the time of day, Andrew Clute: Yeah. Chris Whittaker: chain work, you know, might get switched to bands to be a little quieter. But yeah, I I still look at it as warm up, max effort or dynamic effort method, supplemental, secondary lift. And then okay, those six different accessory categories. And if I can't get them all in the same session, well I'm gonna come in on another session and get the ones that I haven't done. Like tomorrow, for example, I gotta Chris Gilliam: Yeah. Chris Whittaker: I gotta do more upper accessories. I was able to do my speed warm up, do my speed sets today, and then I think I did a tricep movement and upper back movement. So now I gotta go back and get the other four categories that I didn't do today to f to fill it out. So Chris Gilliam: Yeah, I gotcha. Yeah, I'm just the other day I only had time to get my squat actual sets in. I didn't have time for the accessory work. So I got my squat in and then I just I came back the next morning and did my accessory work just because I you know, I wasn't gonna skip it. It's just it didn't fit into my day like I thought it would 'cause it's just, you know, how it went. So it just meant instead of five work day this week I had six. 'Cause I had to extend the one day and do a another one. but I don't know. Chris Whittaker: But good part is you can recover from those movements, depending on what you're doing in accessories. If you're doing the small Chris Gilliam: Yeah. Chris Whittaker: single joint exercises like we have been talking about throughout this whole show, we can do those and recover from them in twelve hours. Chris Gilliam: Yeah. yeah, I mean for sure, like it it's you know, I take the mindset that I would with the kids. If if we're gonna miss anything right now, it's not gonna be the main lift. Chris Whittaker: Mm-hmm. Chris Gilliam: I got the main lift done that day and then it's like I'll get to the accessories and I just put it into the next day. I thought I would get in maybe later that night. I probably could have sucked it up and did it, but I'll be honest, my by the time I settled down after stuff, I'm like, after this I'm Chris Whittaker: Yeah. Andrew Clute: Thing, thing. Chris Gilliam: I'm just gonna chill. I'm gonna chill. I'll get up in the morning and finish it. So I don't know. You you got a workout place at home, Coach Clute, or you still Andrew Clute: just a few things. We have I have my air dime bike, we got a rower, treadmill, a couple dumbbells and a bench. So we make do easily around here and split it up. I I enjoy getting up early in the morning and then the one thing that I would add to any of it is at worst just getting air squats and push ups. It'll it'll cure a lot and if if I'm out of time you can easily get some of those little things in and one of the things that I'm trying to do more of lately is just the mobility work. Being able to twist Chris Gilliam: Yeah. Andrew Clute: and move. That's some of the stuff. If I'm not necessarily lifting, I'm gonna at least try to get the mobility work in to try to keep what little bit of flexibility I do have. Chris Gilliam: Yeah, I've had to focus a lot more on like I'll be on my heavy stretching days, it's like it takes a half hour to get through Andrew Clute: Yeah. Chris Gilliam: all the stretching. It but it's making a big difference for me. I'm feeling better, my lower back feels better, my hips are looser, which is helping me with my squat depth because I am starting to train. The one thing I noticed is I when I made my decision, I'm gonna start training for me. So I'd videoed myself on my squat depth and on I just started laughing because if my lifters would have seen that, they would have been giving me a bunch of crap Chris Whittaker: Ha ha ha. Chris Gilliam: because I Andrew Clute: Mm-hmm. Chris Gilliam: always gave them crap. But I was looking at myself and I'm like, Man, you are way above parallel buster. You gotta fix it. But I found myself like when I finally got to that spot and I'm like, Jeez, my hips are tight. Chris Whittaker: Well. Chris Gilliam: My lower back is tight. I'm like, I gotta fix this. So it's all about stretching mobility. That hip mobility. Chris Whittaker: Y you must not have sent that to Morgan. You must not have sent that to Morgan 'cause I didn't see it on Instagram. Chris Gilliam: no those no, those are private. Hey, Andrew Clute: Yeah. Chris Gilliam: matter of fact, after I watched it, quick delete. There's no record of it. Chris Whittaker: Yeah, can't can't have any evidence of high squats. Chris Gilliam: No, no way. Not even in the cloud. I don't even want it there. So Chris Whittaker: Hey, 'cause Skynet's always watching, you know they can they can find it. They can come back. Chris Gilliam: Yeah, for sure. Hey, Chris Whittaker: Okay. Chris Gilliam: I appreciate you being with us, Andrew. Thanks for joining us for this podcast. We we enjoy talking to you at Meets. It's good to talk to you outside of a meet. good luck with the the upcoming football season and also the powerlifting season. We're excited for the new powerlifting season. We've got some new things taking place with the zones that we we have that we told you guys about. and then we got some new announcements of some things that'll come out in October. some new exciting things taking place with the Michigan High School Power Lifting Association. And we're glad that you're a part of it and we appreciate ya. Andrew Clute: Yeah, thank you for having me and thank you for the work that you guys are putting in for to taking this to the next level. I appreciate it. Chris Gilliam: We appreciate ya. Chris Whittaker: Gentlemen, this is Ben, another episode of the platform, where the stories weigh a ton. There you have it folks. That does it for another episode of the platform. A huge thank you to Coach Andrew Clue for joining us and talking shop. If there's one thing to take away from all this conversation, is this getting stronger isn't just about putting more weight on the squat, the bench, and the deadlift. We have to find the weak points and attack them with purpose and execute the movements correctly and track whether you're actually improving or not. Way to get better. And understand that the accessory work you're tempted to skip might be exactly what moves your competition lifts forward and up. If you enjoyed today's episode, make sure that you are subscribed right here to the platform. Leave us a rating and review. Share this episode out with a coach, an athlete, training partner, or anybody you think could use it. Don't forget to visit the MHS PLA Fourth Wall shop. at MHSPLA-shop.fourthwall dot com and grab your MHSPLA and platform gear to support the podcast and your Michigan High School Powerlifting Association. Until next time, train those weak points, earn PRs, and keep putting weight on the bar. I'm Chris Whitaker. This is Ben, another episode of the platform. For the stories, way a time.