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Acquired, Not Courted: Surviving 30 Years with a Covert Narcissist with Mia J. Hanks · Bent Not Broken: Starting Over After Divorce | Post Divorce Life

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to another episode of Bent Not Broken.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Heartbreak and trauma may feel like the end of your story, but here it's the beginning of a bold new chapter.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Coach Deborah Griffiths, and this is the space where women rise, rebuild, and rediscover their purpose.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Remember this truth.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: You are bent, not broken.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Trigger warning.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: This episode discusses topics such as emotional abuse, narcissistic relationships, trauma, and recovery.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: These conversations may be difficult or triggering for some listeners.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Please take care of your emotional well-being.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: Pause or step away if needed.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Today's guest is Mia J.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: Hanks, an award-winning author and survivor of narcissistic abuse.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: Her powerful memoir, Bride Maid, shares her 30-year journey with a covert narcissist and offers hope and healing for others walking a similar path.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Mia is passionate about raising awareness and reminding survivors that they are never alone.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome, Mia.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you're very welcome.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: So let's get started.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: You wrote, I had not been courted.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: I had been acquired.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's a powerful realization.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Can you take us back to that moment when you first began to see through the smoke and mirrors of your marriage?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I met my now ex-husband when I was 19.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: And we got married.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: I was 21.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I was very, very young, very naive.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: I had come from a very sheltered background, a what I like to call an idyllic childhood.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't have experience with narcissists or narcissism.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: I really didn't know what that was.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: It just wasn't something that I ever thought I would encounter.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so those red flags, you know, it took a long time to start to see them and start to understand what they were.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: But I noticed very early on that my husband had no empathy.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, just none.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: He could not self-reflect.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: He could not see things from other people's points of view.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: He couldn't put himself in someone else's shoes.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it just seemed like there was a barrier in the wall.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: And he was cold.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I definitely early on, I did feel more, I didn't understand what I was feeling, but it definitely felt like I was more of a possession rather than a partner.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's very accurate.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: I felt as though I had been a choir.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: I understand that feeling.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Can you give us some examples of the lack of empathy that he might have shown towards you?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I the first thing I can really remember is early in the marriage when I was sick with the flu or some sort of virus, rather than being sympathetic towards me or trying to help me, his response was to be angry.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: He was mad that I was sick.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, this is really strange.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: Who gets mad because their partner is sick?
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: That makes no sense.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: But again, because I was young and naive and didn't understand things like emotional abuse, psychological abuse, you know, I thought, well, it's just a personality quirk.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think partners of narcissists tend to think, if I just hold on a little bit longer, it's going to get better.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: Eventually it's going to get better.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: But these people, they don't have empathy.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: Some have low empathy, but some have no empathy.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it really is, I think probably any victim of narcissistic abuse would probably say it's the first big red flag that they see.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: On the outside, you describe appearing to be the perfect couple, but inside it was a different story.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: What were some of the earliest red flags that you can now recognize in hindsight?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: When we would be out in public, he would be over the top nice to me, very complimenting, always telling people, oh, isn't she great?
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't she so beautiful?
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: Building me up to make himself look good.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: And he's looking like the perfect partner, right?
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody thinks he is the perfect husband.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: But then behind closed doors, it was completely different.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: And instead of being complimentary, like he was when people were around, he constantly would degrade me.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: You're not, you're not smart.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: You um are not smart enough to handle things, you mess everything up, you don't know anything, and constantly trying to break down my confidence.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: So it was like this push and pull.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: It was really strange when we would be out with people, he couldn't be nicer.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then behind closed doors, he couldn't be meaner.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: It really does mess with you psychologically when you constantly have this back and forth and you're not sure.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: In the early days, I wasn't sure what to believe.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then as time went on, it became evident that his true feelings were behind closed doors.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: And out in public, it was just a mask.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: So to family and friends, he appeared to be the perfect husband.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, obviously behind closed doors is a different story.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: When did you ever open up to family and friends that you thought that there were issues?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: And if so, what was their reaction?
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: Were they surprised because of the charming personality that he showed to others?
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: I never did open up to anyone.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: The exception is my parents who were with us a lot.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: They actually witnessed all of this.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: They knew what was going on behind closed doors.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: They were the only ones.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: To everyone else, I was very much ingrained early in our marriage to protect his ego, to protect his image.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: He's wearing this false mask out in public.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: And really, I'm coming along beside him, helping him keep up this false image of himself.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm out there saying, yeah, he's so great.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: Why was I doing that?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because I thought it was my job.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's this embarrassment factor that we don't want people to think we're struggling.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted people to think I had it all together.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: In my mind, it was just the lesser of two evils to perpetrate this lie and say, yeah, it's great.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: He's great.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: We have the perfect marriage.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: We're the perfect couple.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I did for a long, long time.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of shame that victims of narcissists, I think, feel until they cut that cord and start beginning that healing process.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: That was one of the reasons why I found it so difficult to leave because there is shame.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: I now have to go and tell everybody that, yeah, I left and our marriage wasn't perfect and it didn't work, you know, and I stayed for nearly three decades.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: And you worry, who's gonna believe me?
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because I've been saying how great this guy is all these years.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: And now to have to flip a script and say, well, actually, that was a coping mechanism.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: And now let me tell you the truth.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: You wrote, ours was not an equal partnership.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: I owed him, and he owned me.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: How did this dynamic shape your sense of identity over the years?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: And what helped you begin to reclaim it?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: He really did feel ownership, and he really did feel like I owed him.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he was the breadwinner.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: He was making this fantastic salary and providing this wonderfully comfortable life for us.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: He thought that he deserved all the accolades.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: Anything that I did was downplayed, overshadowed.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: It was just not important.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: Everything he did was of the utmost importance.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he was so wonderful.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so he really felt like really from a financial standpoint, that I did owe him.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, look at me.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm providing this great light for you and this beautiful house and the maid and a nice car.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: You have all these things you owe me.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really the dynamic that we had throughout the whole marriage.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: He really was better than me, or so he felt.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: And he's on a pedestal, and I have to praise him at every turn.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: So definitely that was our dynamic.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: For listeners who may not understand the term, can you explain what living with a covert narcissist looks and feels like on a day-to-day basis?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's much of what we said about how out in public they're so nice and so charming to the general public.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: The covert narcissist will appear as anything but a narcissist.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: Trying to get people to believe that, you know, actually this person is a narcissist.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody wants to believe that because they see this generous, kind, very caring, empathetic person, funny, all-around good guy.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: But behind closed doors, they're a monster.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's what makes the covert narcissist so dangerous because it is hard for the victim to ever get anybody to believe them when all everybody sees is this charming guy.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: Understood.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: After nearly 30 years, what was the turning point that gave you the strength or maybe even the clarity to finally leave?
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: It was a number of things, but one of the big things was my physical health.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: It had been rapidly declining the last few years of our marriage.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: I was living in this state of fight or flight all the time.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that stress is not good.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: Stress can really cause problems for your physical body.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't realize how much stress really could hurt you.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: I was suffering from chronic pain, headaches, stomach aches, very regular panic attacks and all of these things because I was living in that fight or flight, walking on those eggshells all the time.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: So that was the big reason I realized it was not sustainable for me to continue to live like this.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: Just narcissism, most people don't know that it actually gets worse with age.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: It does not get better.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: Every passing year was a little bit worse than the last.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: And his level of control escalated into something that was becoming terrifying to you.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just felt like to save myself, I was gonna have to make an exit.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: Had you spoken with any doctors or gone to any therapy to talk about these symptoms and what was going on with you?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I did after I left.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: I did find a therapist who was very well versed in narcissism.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that was a huge help.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think I was looking for permission.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, I had permission from my family, right?
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: They wanted me out, but I needed somebody else to tell me it's okay to leave.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: This is not good, and you need to leave.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: Toward the end of our marriage, my husband and I were in marriage counseling.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: Interestingly enough, it was his idea.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: He loves therapy.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: And this was in his mind a way to manipulate and get what he wanted.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he could go and tell the therapist all these things that were wrong with me.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: And he thought he would manipulate the therapist.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: Fortunately, we were seeing a marriage therapist who saw the red flags and kicked him out of therapy after about maybe seven, eight, or nine sessions, said, I can't help you anymore.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: But that therapist ended up being someone I met with later on.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: She told me, you know, that this isn't good.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: This is toxic.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: And if you want out, you really need to go.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: That was the nudge I needed to finally say, okay, it's okay for me to leave.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a very big proponent of therapy.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think that there's some really good things that can come from that.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: How did the process of writing Bridemaid help you make sense of the experiences and find your voice again?
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: It was interesting.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: I found it very healing, which I didn't expect.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: There's something about being able to put these stories and these things down on paper, document these things, in that it's freeing because I felt like I could let these stories go.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't have to hold on to these things that had happened to me.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: Now it's documented and I could be free of it.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it was very therapeutic.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it was a surprise.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: I really wasn't expecting it to be that way.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: I really hope that even though I got a benefit from it, being that it freed me, I'm hoping that it will help other people find that validation that they need.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: The other interesting thing was I had lived with this narcissist for nearly three decades, and our crazy life became my normal.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: The things that I was dealing with day to day, that's all I knew.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's what was normal to me.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I found that when I was writing these stories and all these things that had happened, I thought, wow, this is kind of bad.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think we don't realize when we're in it how bad it really is until we find ourselves telling somebody else.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then you hear these words come out and you think, I can't believe I lived like that.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: What was I thinking?
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: It was an interesting process writing this book.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Your book has resonated deeply with survivors of narcissistic abuse.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: What message do you hope most readers take away from the story?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: I hope people will see that narcissists are not likely to change and you have a life.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: There's a way to get out, even though you feel stuck.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: There are resources out there, and you don't need to stay in a toxic relationship, especially one that is psychologically harmful.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: You absolutely can get out.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: There's a way out, there's resources, there's people that can help you.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I just hope people can feel validated in their decision to leave a toxic partner.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: What were some of the first steps you took to rebuild your life after leaving?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: And what advice would you offer to someone who's just beginning that journey?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think the first step for me was it was therapy.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: And again, finding the right therapist who had some knowledge about narcissism was very helpful.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: Forming a support group, a small group of people to talk to is really, I think, as is as important as therapy.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of people think we need this big group, just a few people really is all you need.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about numbers, it's more quality over quantity.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: But finding that group that you can talk to, finding people that will stand by you and support you, and really just giving yourself time.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: You're not going to heal overnight.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: You may never heal fully.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: This type of abuse changes people.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: But really be patient with yourself and practice self-care.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: Get rest when you need it.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: Take care of yourself.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: Listen to your body.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: These are things I did not do while I was married.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: So it was a lot to take on.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um the freedom, the overwhelming freedom, was exciting and kind of scary at the same time.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: So that was something that was interesting to me.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, definitely you need to set some plans in place to start taking care of yourself.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's the biggest thing.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: Bridemaid earned the Gold Literary Titan Book Award.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's an incredible honor.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: What did that recognition mean to you personally and professionally?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: I was surprised.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: I was very honored to get an award.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: It makes me feel this book can help people.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: I felt a little more confident.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard to put a book out there, especially your own personal story.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: You don't know how it's going to be received.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: I was really honored that it was received well.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: It makes me want to give it to more people, especially those who really need to hear this message.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Agree.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: For those who are still caught in toxic relationships who might feel trapped or hopeless, what words of encouragement would you like to leave them with today?
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: The biggest thing I would like to tell people is you're not stuck.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: You can feel stuck and it feels daunting, leave, especially if you've been in this relationship for a long time, that it's never too late to get out.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: You can do it.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: And really, there is such a better life on the other side of abuse.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: And if someone wants to purchase your book, what's the best way for them to do so?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: The easiest way is on Amazon.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's available in ebook format and paperback.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: And also my website, MiaJhanks.com, there is a link to the Amazon page to purchase.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: Purchase and leave me a review.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: Excellent.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Mia, for taking the time to share your powerful story.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: We really appreciate it.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for letting me come on today.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to today's episode of Bent Not Broken.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: I hope that this episode reminded you that even through life's toughest moments, you are bent, not broken.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: If this message inspired you, please share, rate, review, and subscribe, as it helps us reach more women who are ready to rise and rebuild.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: And until next time, keep living bold and walking in your purpose.