Latest / Long Distance Friends / What You Need to be Resilient + Handling Resentment as a Military Spouse - with Dr. Michelle Kirk

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What You Need to be Resilient + Handling Resentment as a Military Spouse - with Dr. Michelle Kirk · Long Distance Friends

• Anna Casey: Hey everybody and welcome back to long distance friends. ⁓ could not be more excited for our guest today. she just captures everything that ⁓ I am hoping for long distance and the the kind of expert that we can all learn from lean on. ⁓ Michelle Kirk is a doctorate-level performance psychology professional who has spent more than a decade helping military leaders, soldiers, and families build resilience and perform under pressure. She worked with the U.S. Army in roles ranging from leadership coaching and resilience training to developing suicide prevention and deployment support programs. In addition to her experience working with military populations, she's coached sports from youth to college level. Worked at several universities across the country, teaching sports psychology, principles of behavior change, and coaching courses. She continues to coach athletes and consult with parents and coaches to help enhance resilience and performance in sport and life. Michelle has earned a PhD in performance psychology, a master's degree in exercise science, and is a certified master resilience trainer and mindfulness sport performance enhancement instructor. Michelle is a military spouse of 10 plus years. In those 10 years, Michelle and her husband have logged six cross-country moves, along with having and raising four children. Through this lived experience, Michelle has developed a passion for supporting military spouses as they navigate the challenges and opportunities of military life, including deployment and heavy TDY, relocation, finding community and maintaining connections and meeting one's own needs. While always in the service of others. Michelle Kirk: ⁓ Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited for the conversation. Anna Casey: Michelle, ⁓ my gosh, welcome to Long Distance Friends. Thank you for being here. How does it feel hearing someone read your bio like that? Is it just like, wow, I really have done some cool things with my life? Michelle Kirk: ⁓ while hearing someone read your bio, it's uncomfortable, right? You're just like sitting there and listening to someone talk about you, which for me that's uncomfortable. But ⁓ I would say like when putting together a bio, it's ⁓ of a life I've lived. And I maybe you can relate, like, because sometimes we get pigeonholed into one identity. ⁓ like ⁓ I'm ⁓ my husband's you know, the leader's spouse, ⁓ I'm a mom, ⁓ this person's mom. so to remember that I have. Anna Casey: Yeah Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Michelle Kirk: have done things in my past or I have lived a life and achieved some things for myself outside of those roles which I love and I'm grateful for. That that is something that does like kind of help build me up and remind me that I'm more than just these singular identities. Anna Casey: Wow, that's so good. That's so true. not only do you your master's, you also have your PhD, which is ⁓ a ton of years of work. And so led you ⁓ to dedicating yourself so to studying resilience? Did this start way back for you in high school? Or ⁓ What about your journey led you on that track? Michelle Kirk: Yeah. Yeah, I love I love the way you're asking that question because it w that track was led by my journey. ⁓ you know, in high school I didn't know what I wanted to be when I grew up. My kids just had career day in elementary school and I was like, how can they possibly know? I'm still, you know, switching things up. and so yeah, I I mean in generally speaking though, I think it it ⁓ it did start back at an early age because I was just as a I was an athlete in junior high. Anna Casey: Я. Yeah. Ha ha ha. Mm-hmm. Michelle Kirk: High, high school, you know. ⁓ and I was just always a pretty driven person. ⁓ and so I was very motivated to be the best. Like I wanted to be my best, but I also wanted to be the best. And so ⁓ I was just kind of haphazardly like figuring that out. Like, how do I be and become the best? And so that kind of led this interest in studying like human behavior and human performance. I mean I didn't know what I was doing, but I was like figuring it out, and then in college I played Anna Casey: Mm. Mm. Yeah. Michelle Kirk: So that that drive stayed with me. ⁓ and I was a captain. So then I got became more interested in like leadership and how do I help bring the best out of others. ⁓ but then it came time to deciding a major, and I was like, I don't know, I'm just here to play basketball. and so so when deciding a major, I was like, Well, I want to be the best, I'm you know, really into achievement, so exercise science seemed to be a great place to study. So I became more intentional in studying like how to train. Anna Casey: Yeah right. Yeah. Michelle Kirk: The body to optimize performance. ⁓ And so that's where you know where I was at that time. But then when I went into grad school for my master's degree, I started in exercise science and then I was introduced to the field of sports psychology. And I was just like, what? Like, what is this? Like I had no idea. I was told, you know, all my years as an athlete to be mentally tough. And you know, you've got to, you know, be you know mentally strong. Anna Casey: Mm. Yeah. Sure. Michelle Kirk: strong but it was never really broken down in such a way that like it was a trainable skill or a trainable thing. and so when I when I learned about that I was like okay this is what I want to study. This was like the missing piece for me as an athlete. ⁓ And so yeah, so that's that's kind of where it shifted and I started to study more systematically the Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. for Michelle Kirk: I guess the drivers behind human performance, the psychology behind it. And then that led me to my first job in the field with the army at West Point. I was working for the Center for Enhanced Performance. And then that led me to resilience training. And then I became a military spouse and I saw a whole new side of, you know, living with resilience and what that really means outside of performance, but like in your life. So yeah, that's kinda how my path and experiences led me through. and towards studying resilience and performance psychology in general. Anna Casey: Wow. Yeah, that's that's such a good point. You are told your whole life as a as a young athlete, you know, just just go through, just grind through, just, you know, block everything out. And so that it's so fascinating to hear you talk about it because ⁓ I was a track and cross country runner. ⁓ And the person in our world who was like our idol was ⁓ Steve Prefontaine. ⁓ And he's Michelle Kirk: Mm. Anna Casey: famous for having quotes like, I Googled it to refresh my brain. ⁓ So quotes that I idolize as a runner were a lot of people run a race to see who is fastest. ⁓ I to see who has the most guts. ⁓ Or give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift. Or somebody may beat me, but they're gonna have to bleed to do it. ⁓ Or I'm going to work so that it's a pure guts race at the end. And if it is, I am the only one who can win it. ⁓ which are epic Those are the those are the quotes that ⁓ I ⁓ like up as a runner. And so I think for in my brain, and I don't think they're I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, ⁓ but for me I was training, it was push out everything, push out all physical comfort. Michelle Kirk: Mm-hmm. Anna Casey: lock in, push out all the discomfort, and you're gonna grind it out and you're gonna if you're not throwing up at the end of a race or almost blacking out, then you did not try hard enough. And so that was that was that was how what I equated to grit and what I equated to resilience. And Michelle Kirk: Mm. Mm. Anna Casey: So I'm curious throughout your years of study, how do you actually define resilience and how maybe is it different than grit or how or what has surprised you about resilience in all of your years of study? what surprised you about resilience all of your years of study? Michelle Kirk: Hmm, I feel like that's a loaded question. just because I don't have any because I don't have an easy answer. I think I mean the first the first thing that I w I I think is like those quotes and that like line of teaching about grit and resilience mental toughness, like did that serve you well as an athlete? Anna Casey: Yes. No pressure. Yes. I think it did. Yes. Right. Michelle Kirk: Yeah, okay. So it helped you to achieve. Did you ever find did you ever find that it didn't serve you well outside of athletics or maybe even inside athletics? Yeah. Anna Casey: ⁓ yeah. Yep. Absolutely. I think it helped me be a really good runner, but I don't know if that I think it this is a really good question. I think it did help me because it helped me there were port there are pieces of it that were you you build your your tough skin, right? But I don't know if I had the but I think it came at the expense of me listening to my body and listening to my like when my tank is on E and I'm starting to run empty in life. Michelle Kirk: Mm. Anna Casey: when it's okay to like rest and take a break and reset and listen to my body. So does that make sense? Michelle Kirk: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. So absolutely. And I think that is that's the answer I would give is that I think resilience and mental toughness and grit, ⁓ they're just commonly misunderstood because everyone has their own definition and even in like the scientific papers there's like hundreds of definitions. There's actually an article about all the definitions of resilience. And so there's not a consensus on just one, but like your coach probably had h his or her own Anna Casey: Yeah. Wow. Michelle Kirk: Definition of mental toughness that they were operating and coaching out of. My coach had one, I had one. And so, but I think ultimately, like those concepts, which are similar, different, but similar, there's two sides to the coin, and a lot of times the side that's preached the most is the you know, push through, never stop until you're bleeding or puking, you know, embrace the suck, you know, that sort of thing. So, in like the military and in sport, that's the side that's pushed the most. Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. Mm. Michelle Kirk: And what's neglected is the side of rest, recovery, listening to your body and its needs. And I think that's like you said it perfectly when you said at the expense of. And so what can help facilitate performance over the long run can lead to burnout and it can lead to impaired well being. ⁓ If we're not flipping the coin sometimes, you know, regularly, I wouldn't even say sometimes, but regularly. And I know we might be getting to. Anna Casey: Yes. Mm. Mm. Michelle Kirk: that when we talk about you know what fuels resilience but ⁓ so yeah as far as like a definition ⁓ there's multiple like scientific definitions but I think kind of using what you just said it's it's both it's the ⁓ building a capacity to to handle stress, handle adversity, handle pressure, cope with it effectively ⁓ and recover from that adversity, adverse experience, recover, learn from it, grow ⁓ through that experience. So that's kind of the definition that I've adopted. It's also pretty similar to what the military states as a resilience definition, but again, generally the emphasis is always on the ladder, the pushing, the striving. Anna Casey: Mm. Yeah. Michelle Kirk: versus the resting recovery. Anna Casey: Wow, that is so fascinating. Thank you for sharing that. And it's it's interesting to hear that there's so many definitions of resilience because you would think you would think it would be as simple as the ability to push through. You know what I mean? But the fact that it's been studied so intensely and people have such different takeaways is fascinating. Michelle Kirk: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well and there's also I mean like grit, that definition, the ability to push through and persevere, that's kind of a a definition for grit. Anna Casey: Yeah. Michelle Kirk: there's also like social resilience, physical resilience, emotional resilience. Like you can even break it down in domains. So it's more complex than just one simple ⁓ ⁓ Anna Casey: That makes a lot of sense. what do you find are the parallels between sports performance like we've been talking about ⁓ and resilience as a family or as a military spouse? And what do we actually need ⁓ to be capable of being resilient? Michelle Kirk: Well, I think there's ⁓ the parallels are that ⁓ sport ⁓ in ⁓ and especially a military spouse or military family life, you're going to face challenges. ⁓ going to face adversity. ⁓ you're gonna ⁓ to ⁓ or execute under pressure. ⁓ so the parallel is ⁓ to be able to cope with that adversity and ⁓ manage that stress. and so think similarities are like the same skills or strategies you might use in sport ⁓ would be ⁓ relevant to life. You know, like in sport, before I was a basketball player, you know, you were a runner. Before the gun went off, you know, to signal the start of the race, before I was shooting a free throw, you might take a deep breath. You know, you might like regain your physical and mental composure. Right? Well, as a military spouse, I need to take deep breaths a lot. You know, when my husband tells me where his orders are, and I'm like, where is that? Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I ain't going to Fort Polk. Michelle Kirk: Yeah. Yeah. or as a mom, you know, I I take deep breaths a lot as a mom. when my husband's deployed or TDY for the N teenth time that month. ⁓ so yeah, so the skills and strategies that you would use, you know, in a sport arena you can ⁓ definitely use and utilize in life. Anna Casey: Yeah. You are? No. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Michelle Kirk: But I also found like it's the one of the differences is ⁓ well I mean this is true for sport too, but it's it's just not as easy. Like in sport the consequences are winning or losing. And when you are tied up in your athlete identity, which I was, winning and losing was everything. It was my life. But now that I have this broader perspective and I've worked with the military, with soldiers, and I'm living the life, you know, as a military spouse, now the consequences are like bigger. Anna Casey: Yeah. Mm hmm. Right. Right. Mm. Michelle Kirk: Right? I mean in the service member world it's life or death. In the military spouse world it it could be as well. ⁓ but it's also, you know, just I don't I I guess it just it's just not as easy. So like ⁓ I think that was something I had to realize because yes, yeah. Anna Casey: Yeah. Your family's well being is, you know, at stake, right? Like ⁓ if you're the the that's kind of holding down the home front and you're not okay or you can't get through it, that totally affects your kids and and and their well being, right? Yeah. Michelle Kirk: Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. ⁓ I think another big difference is that, you know, in sport recovery is like built into the training plan. ⁓ you know, there's like periodization and there's seasons of rest or just like lower intensity, but like the military's spouse military life like sometimes, you know, sometimes your spouse, like the service member might have a family friendly assignment and it truly is. It's a schoolhouse or it's a non-deployable unit. Anna Casey: Mm. Mm. Yeah. Wow. Yes, right. Mm-hmm. Michelle Kirk: but generally speaking, we don't get periods of rest and recovery. We have to find them, we have to find ways to kind of micro recover. ⁓ but it's not built in and in fact it's almost like, you know, culturally it's you're weak if you take time off, you know, you're weak if you ⁓ you know, rest is for the weary sort of approach. So I think those are some differences that we as military spouses, as just you know, military family members, we have to it's kind of like working against us, so we have to show up and do the work to not like succumb to that mentality, if that makes sense. Anna Casey: Yeah. Yeah, totally makes sense. What else do we need to be capable of being resilient? Michelle Kirk: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so this is something that's kind of been a revelation for me just this past year, I think. so for many years I was teaching and training and you know, advocating resilience, you know, cope effectively, manage the stress, do the things. but it it was this idea that recovery is essential to be resilient because I mean think of the days that you were just depleted just from life or you know, as a mom, like your energy literally don't have energy. ⁓ Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Michelle Kirk: recovery is essential to be resilient Anna Casey: Wow. Michelle Kirk: to to manage and cope with the stress. Like the days that, you know, I'm running on empty, maybe because I didn't sleep well, maybe because I wasn't eating well, yeah, whatever it was, I'm easier to lose my patience with my kids. I'm, you know, easier to say something that I don't mean. You know, I'm I'm not handling the stress as well because I don't I literally and physiologically don't have the energy for it. And so I think that's been a revelation I've had in this current season of my life is that it it might not be a resilience problem. It might not be that you don't have the skills to be resilient. It might be you don't have the capacity to be resilient. And so the focus for me right now and like when I'm helping people or, you know, speaking on this, I I'm now like focused I think we're especially like in my peer group, like we're all worn out. We're just like burnt out. And it's not that we don't have the resilience, it's that the capacity is been depleted over the years or Anna Casey: Sure. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Michelle Kirk: months or weeks. So ⁓ so yeah to get to that the answer that question I I believe like what we need is to be investing our time into recovering and recuperating our energy on a daily weekly basis so that we can engage in those resilient behaviors. Anna Casey: Mm. Yeah, yeah. What what does that look like for you? Michelle Kirk: some weeks it doesn't look like anything, which is why I'm depleted. ⁓ but what that looks like for me, well like this morning, I took my son, my six year old out. We live like right next to the Chesapeake Bay, and so I took him out on the water on the kayak and just Anna Casey: Yeah ⁓ that's beautiful. Michelle Kirk: Yes, it was gorgeous. And what I wanted to do was be pr you know, preparing for this podcast and cleaning the house and doing things, but ⁓ just kind of forcing myself to prioritize my my health and my my needs to just like unplug and do something that brings me joy and ⁓ so yeah, I think it's a lot of things and it can be different for everyone, but ⁓ it's like ⁓ asking yourself like what do I need? ⁓ I think we sh you know communicate about that. Anna Casey: Sure. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Michelle Kirk: Earlier and email, but what do I need right now? And also realizing like we were talking about a little bit earlier about resilience. There's different domains of resilience, like physical, emotional, spiritual, ⁓ social. And so, like kind of monitoring which which one of those domains am I really depleted in? And so if it's maybe it's physical. I need sleep. I need physical rest. Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah yes. I need to water. Yeah. Michelle Kirk: ⁓ Yes, I need to drink water. Exactly. maybe it's spiritual. Maybe like I need I need to go to church this week or I need to spend time journaling this week. maybe it's social. I'm feeling like I haven't really connected with a friend or family member for a long time. So it's like becoming aware and attuned to like which area or domain of my life do I need some some reboot and then just committing to and allowing yourself to take the time to to recall. Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah. Michelle Kirk: Yeah. Anna Casey: Yeah, it's so good. What are the say the domains again? We've got physical, spiritual. Michelle Kirk: I might miss some, but physical, mental, and emotional, spiritual, social. I'm sure there's more. I mean, there's also like financial resilience, but I think as a human, like well-being-wise, those are the the main ones that come to mind. Physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, and social. Anna Casey: Yeah, absolutely. Because you are a whole person. You're a whole person and all these different parts of you need nurtured and tended to. And ⁓ yeah, you can't ignore that. As we function through life as a human being, and as a human being, those are those are the things those are the areas that we literally need. And so to push through life with trying to do it without friends or trying to do it without adequate sleep. Michelle Kirk: Yes. Yeah. Mm. Mm, mm. Right. Anna Casey: ⁓ that's not how we're meant to function at all. ⁓ and so honoring that is is it's such a good reminder. one of the things that I have had to learn, you know, I've been a huge people pleaser my whole life. And one of the things that I tuned out was what do I want in this moment? What do I Michelle Kirk: Mm, mhm. Anna Casey: need in this moment? What would feel good to me right now? And so there would be times when ⁓ my husband Nate would take the kids out of the house. My girls are three and one. And I would just kind of stand there like, what do I do? And I would like, should I go do the dishes? Should I go clean? Should I do the put the laundry away? And it's just like I'm so used to like tending to everything that to Michelle Kirk: Mm, mhm. Mm, mm-hmm, yeah, yeah. Mm. Anna Casey: have the girls out of the house is like whoa like I can really like like I can do something for me now. and it's just been interesting growing that growing that skill of like what would actually feel really good for me right now. And every day it's different. Some days it's Michelle Kirk: Mm. Mm, mhm. mhm, mhm Anna Casey: I'm just gonna take the dogs and I'm gonna go walk by myself and just pop in my headphones and listen to something. S the other day, this is hilarious and I never thought I would say this, but the other it was Mother's Day the other day, and I was like, what would feel really good for me right now? Actually, what I would genuinely enjoy is cleaning my house in peace, which don't don't come after me. But I I was like, I would actually feel really good to do that. Michelle Kirk: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Anna Casey: and so I did. And I was like, I never thought that I would be folding clothes on Mother's Day. But here I am, and I really enjoyed it. And so sometimes self-care, what I've learned, is like it's not always a bubble bath, right? It's not always doing nothing. Sometimes it's doing sometimes it's investing in yourself in ways that it might feel like work or it might feel like effort, but what it Michelle Kirk: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. Anna Casey: But it it still pours into you and it still energizes you. Like for me, this podcast is a huge one for me. Like for other people it might seem like work, but for me, I I literally produce this show during my kids' nap time every day and Michelle Kirk: Mm. Mm. Mm, mhm. Anna Casey: I could go take a nap, and some days I do, a lot of days I do, but a lot of days I'm working on this, and this is what actually energizes me and fills me up for the rest of the day or the rest of the week. This interview right now is gonna give me so much energy and excitement the rest of the week. And so, all that to say, I would love to hear what you've learned about self-care and ⁓ your takeaways about what self-care actually is. Michelle Kirk: Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well I I think you just ⁓ gave some great examples and ⁓ conceptualized it really well. I yeah, for me personally, I I've I've re I've reengaged in ⁓ working out. So just exercising. I love strength training. It's kind of like connecting me, grounding me back into my athletic identity, which has been fun. yeah. Anna Casey: Yeah. Wait, can I pause you there? When you say reengaged in working out, did you have to take a bre a breather? Michelle Kirk: Well, I mean that through four pregnancies in six years, or you know, I guess it was eight years, I don't know. I had back to back pregnancies. I had three three under three for a ⁓ like a month or three. So I just I I w I wanted to be the the mom that was super active in pregnancies and still running and all that, but I wasn't. ⁓ and so ⁓ yeah, I guess by reengage what I mean is I'm I'm reprioritizing it. ⁓ and that that Anna Casey: Yeah. Yes. Okay. ⁓ God bless. Woo yes. Wow. Okay. Got it. Michelle Kirk: actually was a step for me because I would feel guilty for asking for that time. Like Dennis, my husband, like, can you watch the kids so I can go do a workout? ⁓ or like if if a kid is napping or kids are gone or out of the house, like I should be doing something that's gonna benefit everyone. ⁓ so for me ⁓ you know, kind of circling back to self care, it's just like prioritizing my physical needs of exercise and that's also a mental it's it's Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm. Michelle Kirk: benefited my mental health as well. So for me it's exercise, it's strength training or going for walks. I've kind of dialed down on like the intensity of training. ⁓ I don't enjoy that as much right now. I have enough stress in my life. So I like the low intensity exercise right now. ⁓ but Anna Casey: Yeah. Yeah. Low cortisol exercise. Michelle Kirk: Yes, yes, I'm at that age and stage. ⁓ but what I what I also want to point out that you shared well there was a few things, but you shared that, you know, self-care is not does not have to be these like fancy things or you know, the bubble baths, the spa nights and that sort of thing. Anna Casey: That's all three. Michelle Kirk: So one thing that I ⁓ I think that you pointed out is that like doing what feels good for you, but also thinking of what it's going to do for you or maybe bring for you. Like, you know, maybe folding clothes maybe you do enjoy folding clothes and no judgment. But okay, okay. But you knew that you knew that cleaning your house would give you this feeling of satisfaction and you have you get to enjoy the cleanliness of the house. And so it was it was a productive self. Anna Casey: Yes. I don't. I literally do not. Yeah. Yes. Mm-hmm. Michelle Kirk: self-care behavior because it added it added relief for you. And I think something that I've been more cognizant of Anna Casey: Mm. Michelle Kirk: This past season of life is to make the right choice when I have the time to engage in self-care. Like you, like I ha so I've been in those moments where like I actually like have this time. I'm like, what do I do? You know, like my kids, my I I sent my third kid to kindergarten this year, so now I only have one at home, which was like a game changer. I was used to having multiple kids and and you know, anyway, so when that happened and then I had a kidnapping, I was like, What do I do at this time? Anna Casey: Yeah. Awww Wow. Yeah. Michelle Kirk: And I would find myself, you know, laying on the couch watching TV and scrolling social media, and I enjoy both of those activities, and there's nothing wrong with those activities, but in a sense, that wasn't really adding energy to me. It was still, especially the social media, was still taking some energy, emotional energy, especially when you you know get the comparisons or the you know life, you know, life comparison stuff. But yeah. Anna Casey: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Michelle Kirk: My point is though that like when you have that time or when you make that time is also thinking of like what would be an effective way to engage in self-care. Sometimes it is binging TV, but for me, I have to catch myself to be like, do I really need that today, or would I be more fulfilled in engaging in a hobby, ⁓ whether it's reading a book or working on a passion project or going for that walk or doing something that I know will benefit me more longly? Anna Casey: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. That's awesome. Yeah. ⁓ something I've been studying is intuitive eating, and I promise I'm gonna make this make this circle, but ⁓ with intuitive eating, the baseline where you have to start is foundationally removing all diet culture and Michelle Kirk: Mm. Anna Casey: Allowing yourself, allowing yourself to eat whatever you want. No food is bad food. Eat whatever you want. That's the very first step ⁓ in the whole process. And there's like a whole, there's like a whole arc. But that's the that's the first step. and then I'm not an intuitive eating expert, but as I understand it, as you go along, you start to from that foundation of Michelle Kirk: That's easy. ⁓ Mm. Anna Casey: freedom, you start to listen to your body and learn to eat what actually makes you feel good. And so you strip away all other voices, all other, all other calorie counters, all other outside outside data, and you solely focus on, okay, did that make my body feel good? Was I satiated? Was I energized? And then you start to Michelle Kirk: Mm. Mm. Anna Casey: evolve your diet from that. So I think it's really similar to the self-care conversation because you have to, especially if you're a ⁓ a high achieving athlete, right? And you have to learn self-care ⁓ and you have to learn how to take care of your body, you almost have to start from that place of I'm allowed to take a nap. I'm allowed to watch TV and that's not bad. Michelle Kirk: Mm. Yeah, I do too. Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right, exactly. Right. Anna Casey: But then from that place of freedom you can build things back in. ⁓ maybe I don't actually want to scroll for three hours. Maybe I do wanna go take a walk or maybe I do wanna you know what I mean? And so I just think that correlation is fascinating. Michelle Kirk: Right. Yes. Yeah. Yes, yeah. And I like that it's kind of another thing I think about is like kind of ridding yourself of this idea that there's bad choices, but like is there a better choice? So like laying on the couch might not be a bad choice, but like is there a better choice for me today? ⁓ but no, I think intuitive self-care, ⁓ I like that. I might start seeing it that way too. Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Is it beneficial? Yeah. Mm. That's awesome. So I would love to transition to resentment. I'm so excited for this. So I would love to transition to resentment. I'm so excited for this. ⁓ can't wait to learn from you. ⁓ in ⁓ I alluded to this a little bit earlier, but I became a military spouse as a young 24-year-old. ⁓ I ⁓ was working full time when my husband joined the army. And so ⁓ he was gone and he would be gone for months at a time, especially at the beginning, ⁓ ⁓ I can't wait to learn from you. It was hard, but I had I was busy and I was at work full time. So the days would kinda go by and they'd go by fast, right? And and I would be able to to get through that pretty well. and then we had kids and I became a stay at home mom. And now when he's gone, I really start to feel that slow. Michelle Kirk: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Anna Casey: That slow clock, that slow ticking by. And so that for me was when resentment started to creep in. ⁓ and surprisingly, some and this may be just a personal thing, but for me, the hardest part is not actually when he's completely gone or deployed or or on on training somewhere. It's actually the day today when he says he's gonna be home by six. Michelle Kirk: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Anna Casey: Or he's gonna try to be home by six and something popped up and he can't, and he's home at seven. ⁓ and it's been a long day, and I just wanna have dinner with my kids and I want us to go on a family walk. and so because when he's gone, I have no expectations of him. I'm like, okay, I'm in charge, we're running this thing, you know what I mean? But when he's when he's supposed to be home, right, that's when those expectations Michelle Kirk: Mm, mhm. Mm, mhm. Right. Mm. Anna Casey: can get crushed because you have expectations, right? And so for you, when did you start to feel that resentment as a military spouse, you know, of ten plus years? What was when did you start to feel that creep in? And ⁓ what have you learned about resentment? Michelle Kirk: Mm-hmm. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. a lot. And I will just like one thing I've learned about resentment and it's ⁓ you know, I'm hearing you you share it too, is like resentment is it's unmet expectations. I mean that it's fueled by unmet expectations and and also from like feeling out of control. And so for you know resentment ⁓ unmet expectations. and from feeling out of control. Anna Casey: Mm. Yes. Wow. Michelle Kirk: so ⁓ Anna Casey: Yes. Wow. Michelle Kirk: I I've learned more since then too, but I I think for me, I I I share kind of a similar story as yours in the in the sense that like the resentment wasn't there in the beginning, but it's been kind of a slow build. as ⁓ I as we had kids, as the sacrifices seemed to be greater, as the predictability seemed to be, you know, even worse, ⁓ or less less predictable. Anna Casey: Mm. Michelle Kirk: Because I I when when my husband and I got married, I was I think I was thirty one or thirty two. So I'd, you know, lived a decade of life and I was very independent. ⁓ and when we got married, I actually like the benefits outweighed the sacrifice because I then left full time work and that's when I pursued my doctorate degree and I got to use some of his GI Bill. So I was like living it up as a military spouse, you know. and so I think for me when Anna Casey: Mm. Sure. Yeah. Michelle Kirk: I started to perceive, it's not ac fully like accurate, but I started to perceive the sacrifices outweighing benefits and and I I'm gonna come back to correct that, but it was my perception that like all I'm doing is sacrificing. and so yeah, you know, it it so it was like a slow build. I I think probably when I Anna Casey: Hmm. Yeah. Michelle Kirk: after I finished my doctorate degree, I did get some part-time work, but for me the the biggest way resentment has shown up was not necessarily towards my husband and more towards just the military life. I wouldn't even say to the army, but to the military life, was that just the sacrifices I had to make on my career. Because I did have 10 years of building a career in sports psychology and coaching. And I mean I was I wouldn't say climbing. There was not like a ladder to climb, but you know I was I was Achieving doing well in my career from my standards. And then I was getting my PhD, which was kind of like gonna be advancing it, you know, like after this PhD. ⁓ But then it was actually like I had three kids during my doctorate ⁓ degree. but then I had this PhD, but I also had three kids, and so Anna Casey: Definitely. Yeah, it's a big deal. ⁓ my gosh. Hm. Michelle Kirk: I mean and this this could be, you know, just for parents, moms in general. It doesn't have to be military spouse, but because our service members are married to the military too, and that's the first priority, I just my resentment built when I felt like I I was sacrificing my career and my career ambitions. And then I would see, you know, it was hard for me to see some of my prior colleagues like advancing on to get these big gigs and do these great things and be recognized and my resentment built when I felt like I I was sacrificing career Anna Casey: Yeah. Yeah. Michelle Kirk: it was hard for me to see some of my prior like ⁓ advancing on to get these big gigs and do great things and be recognized Anna Casey: Mm Mm hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Michelle Kirk: And then I'm here changing diapers and picking chicken nuggets off the floor, you know. and then seeing my spouse, seeing my husband achieving so much greatness and being recognized and respected, and I'm getting slapped in the face by a toddler. So I mean Anna Casey: Yeah. Yep. Michelle Kirk: and I'm getting slapped in the by toddler. ⁓ So ⁓ Anna Casey: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ man. Yep. Michelle Kirk: In a sense, ⁓ you know, I I think what what helped me through those years was grounding just like ground like finding a posture of surrender. So my faith and my spirituality is important to me. And so seeing this, that whole process, this this whole life experience I was having as like a journey through like sanctification and just like Anna Casey: Mm. Mm. Mm. Michelle Kirk: Yeah, I I think I just I had to look at it differently and ⁓ I mean it was stripping me from my ego. So it's not it wasn't my husband's fault and it wasn't even the military's fault. ⁓ I just had to like die to myself and my ego ⁓ and embrace, you know, the life God had for me and the life I prayed for. You know, that was the ironic thing. so yeah, but I think it's easy to for resentment to build in this military. Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Michelle Kirk: Military life, you know, when there's deployments, when there is PCSing and picking up your life and starting over and having to leave a place you loved, and you know, there's those big things of military life that resentment can start to creep in, but it can also be in the small ways. I mean, I I can find myself getting bitter in the past. Now I'm doing a better job. But like where my husband got to wake up and do PT every morning, and I'm like, when am I supposed to exercise? You know, it's not that easy for me, but for him. Anna Casey: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Michelle Kirk: ⁓ For him, he got to say it's part of my job. And I'm like, Yeah, but technically it should be part of my job as a mom. I need to be healthy. ⁓ but I didn't get that time, and so so it's so resentment is unmet expectations, but it's also unspoken frustrations. And I think for me, like what I've learned in the last couple years has been to communicate better with my spouse, and like when I'm feeling frustrated, maybe it's just communication. Anna Casey: Mm. Mm. Yeah. Michelle Kirk: That you know, instead of like building it up and letting it fester, but just to say, like, I'm really frustrated right now, you know, because these needs of mine aren't being met. And I think too, like we now kind of have a shared language around stress. it's a model, like a stress continuum where there's like color codings and whatnot. And so, like, yeah, well, I'm not gonna teach on it because I'm not an expert, but like the the green zone is like where you're like you're ready to face life. Anna Casey: Yeah. Ooh, yeah, please share. Michelle Kirk: You're you have the capacity to be resilient, you're you know, you're doing fine. The yellow zone is where, like, you know, you're slightly irritated, you know, stress is building a little bit, so you might be a little bit more moody, or you know, have some overreactions, but in general, like you're dealing, and then orange is where like it's it's getting harder to to cope and to deal, you're more depleted, you're more irritated, ⁓ all the things, and then red is like yes, yes, and then the red. Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Alarm systems going off. Michelle Kirk: Zone is like you're shutting down and you're at your breaking point. ⁓ And I've gotten to red before, ⁓ but now like being able to say, like, hey Dennis, like I'm pushing from yellow to orange right now. Like, I need a break, and I need this is what I need. ⁓ you know, I need a morning to clean the house by myself without kids making a mess as I'm doing it, you know. so finding a language that works for you and your spouse, whether it's something Anna Casey: Yeah. Okay. Hmm. Okay. Hmm. Yeah. Michelle Kirk: something like that or you know something else but ⁓ for for us it's it's also a military model. I think it was developed for the Marines but many many soldiers like relate to like this combat readies combat zones of readiness so so it works for us but ⁓ yeah I think communicating my needs and ⁓ my frustrations has also been another way that I've helped to like Anna Casey: Okay. Yeah. Michelle Kirk: Fight against that resentment building. Yeah. Anna Casey: Mm, that's really good. that's super helpful to to even that's a helpful example of having a shared language around how you communicate where you're at. One of the things that I've heard of is what percent are you at? You know, if you're at a hundred percent, Michelle Kirk: Yeah. Yeah. Anna Casey: You're you're doing great. You're firing on all cylinders. If you're at ten percent, you're on empty. And so something that Nate and I will say to each other sometimes is, like, all right, I'm at I'm at 70%. He comes home, he's at 10%. I'm like, all right, I got it. Like I can take tonight, or vice versa. ⁓ if I'm running on low and he's feeling good after that day, he's so great about being like, All right, I'm gonna Michelle Kirk: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Anna Casey: I'm gonna put the girls to bed. I'm gonna clean up the kitchen, like you go to bed early, kind of thing. so communicating that. Michelle Kirk: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Anna Casey: what do you guys do when you're both on orange ⁓ or you're both down low? ⁓ Michelle Kirk: ⁓ what do we do to help that or ⁓ ha no. yes, no I hear what you're saying. Yeah. Well, yeah. Anna Casey: Like how 'cause obviously like one person can't is not the strong one in that situation, right? Michelle Kirk: Right. Well, I think actually, yeah, that's a great question. And ⁓ we don't operate well. I mean, we probably give our kids electronics and tablets for five hours that day so that we both can just like veg on the couch or as you know, escape in our own way. He goes to work out and I do something, you know. So we we do what we need to to survive that day. and it might not be a ⁓ a ⁓ Anna Casey: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Michelle Kirk: Instagram worthy day. You know, it's it's like and I g I guess that's another thing about resilience is that resilience is messy and it's not perfect. and so like you're gonna have days where you overreact and you blow a gasket and both are running on empty and Anna Casey: Yeah. Mm. Mm. Michelle Kirk: the the goal is to not let that be every day or every week. but ⁓ so yeah I would say like if we're both on orange for an extended period of time then we really need to like check what we're doing here, you know. And and for me, like I mean that was another reason why I am now like more embracing staying at home ⁓ without added work projects. Because like when my husband deployed in 2024, I stepped away from working entirely Anna Casey: Mm. Yeah. Michelle Kirk: entirely because I just didn't need one more responsibility to push me to orange or to red. ⁓ and so then it just I think if if you and your spouse or your family are like operating in the orange for Anna Casey: Yeah. Michelle Kirk: you know, a more consistent period of time, then it's like reevaluating decisions and involvements or, you know, things like that. Or behaviors or or maybe we've been watching too much T V at night instead of like taking care of of of the needs that we need to take care of. Anna Casey: Yeah, that's awesome. That makes sense. ⁓ That reminded of something ⁓ my aunt to me. She on a previous episode and coaches ⁓ executives ⁓ and ⁓ she ⁓ one of the things that she teaches is does life margin? ⁓ for joy and does your life have margin for grief? And if you literally have no time to to ha to include those things and that and to have that that margin in your life, then you're too full. You need to dial back. So I thought that was really interesting because we do need time to to be able to process those things or to celebrate things. Michelle Kirk: Mm-hmm. Mm, mhm, mhm. Anna Casey: ⁓ And then another thing that I wanted to to point out is the the the topic of being comfortable to share ⁓ share your expectations and to share your frustrations ⁓ with your spouse, all comes from ⁓ you believing that you're ⁓ those things. If you ⁓ believe your spouse ⁓ is ⁓ Michelle Kirk: Mm, mhm, mhm. Anna Casey: the most important person in your relationship, which you you both are. You both are. You are just as important and you are worth feeling good. You are worth Michelle Kirk: Mm. Right, right. Mm. Anna Casey: Having time. You are worth being a whole healthy person. And if you don't believe that and you just kind of go into that mindset of like, ⁓ I'm just gonna sacrifice, I'm just gonna sacrifice. Yes, you might be in a season of really sacrificing. ⁓ and that's okay, but you are still worth having those conversations. And I think that's something that we have to remember is we're not just it's a balance, right? Like you want to sacrifice. Michelle Kirk: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm, mm. Right. Mm-hmm. Anna Casey: And sometimes you have to, but you're also still worth having those conversations and still being heard and still worth feeling good and still worth having community, right? But Michelle Kirk: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes, yeah. ⁓ yeah, say you're worth prioritizing yourself too. I think that took me some time, especially as a mom, that took a lot of time to realize and embrace. I I have a few more things I could share about resentment, like if if you don't mind. yeah, I I actually really appreciated this ⁓ question and reflecting on it this week because I was like, what do I do? And I think sometimes like that is also part of like resilience is reflecting on on Anna Casey: Yeah. Mm. Yeah, ⁓ please. Michelle Kirk: things so that you can do it more intentionally. So like I might do we might do things that are effective, but if we're if they're not like conscious behaviors, then we don't know how to like use them as a strategy. So so this ⁓ this reflection this week helped me to like, ⁓ what do I do? we've been talking about sacrifice so my husband was in 2024 for ⁓ he he only did seven months because of PCS and so he Anna Casey: Mm, mm. Yeah. Yeah. Great point. Michelle Kirk: came back early. So ⁓ I solo parenting for seven months. ⁓ And we know there's a lot of sacrifice ⁓ that into that for a military spouse, especially when you have children, even if you don't have children. Well then we PCSed across the country ⁓ and his current job, he's TDY like ⁓ Anna Casey: Okay. Michelle Kirk: I don't I don't know exactly, but at least half the month. Like he's gone for a week, he might be home for a few days, he's gone for a few days, he's back. So his primary job is to go see his units that are spread around the world. And ⁓ that there was a lot of resentment right away when we started this assignment. Because I was like, You were just gone, and I was holding down the house, you know, the fort, and now I'm doing it again. And like so I was I was angry, I was frustrated, I was resentful. ⁓ and I was because Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Michelle Kirk: I just felt like I was sacrificing so much, especially 'cause we left JBLM where I loved our life. And so that was another thing that I saw as like a sacrifice. Like I sacrificed leaving a community that was so rich for our family, you know, to be uprooted. But anyway, so Anna Casey: Mm, yeah. Yeah, sure. Michelle Kirk: So what I found, you know, in this season to help me with the resentment that I noticed was reframing the way that I was seeing sacrifice. so like instead of focusing on what I was giving up, I was shifting my mindset then to like what what I have. So it's like, you know, gratitude too, you know, like Anna Casey: Yeah, sure. Michelle Kirk: And so yeah, I think just reframing it as like, but look what I get to do. I I get to stay home with my three-year-old. I get to focus. So I don't have this rich social life like I had at JBLM, perhaps, not yet anyway, but that means that I get to spend quality time with my family and really invest in in our core relationships. And I get to have time to focus on my health. ⁓ you know, so I guess seeing what I'm grateful for in that, that's been really helpful. Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Michelle Kirk: And then and then the other piece is and this was a big this was big growth for me is realizing that it's hard for my spouse too. and Anna Casey: Absolutely. Yes. Yes. That's so true. That's so true. Michelle Kirk: Yeah. I I think what finally helped me to realize it is 'cause my husband kept saying it. Like, you know, I you know, like I don't love missing the the big events either. I don't wanna miss that game or that birthday or that, you know, but like even when he's traveling, you know, he's going to eat at a steakhouse and I'm, you know, eating pizza for the fifth night in a row. ⁓ you know, so you see them when they're deployed and they're on T D Y or whatever, you see them maybe Anna Casey: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Michelle Kirk: having fun and it's easy to get resentful for that but you know just realizing like being away from us is really hard for him and the travel really does exhaust him and his job like ⁓ by the way it is really hard you know like I I think I'm so like self-focused and self-centered sometimes that ⁓ that that only like fuels my resentment so when I get like outside of myself and realize like okay this is hard on him too Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm. Michelle Kirk: so yeah, I that's been a big one for me recently. Anna Casey: Yeah. That's really good. It's really easy to convince yourself, just by default, like, ⁓ like they're loving it, like they get all this stuff and I get I'm the one I'm the only one struggling here. And it's so true though, it's hard to it's it's hard to stay mad when you realize that they're also hurting in some ways too. Michelle Kirk: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. They're definitely making sacrifices as well and sacrifices that I'm not making or not having to make. And so recognizing that can be really helpful. Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. That's awesome. Yeah, that's something I feel like that piggybacking on that, something that I feel like I do quite often is reminding myself that we are choosing this together as a family. ⁓ we signed up for this together. And maybe not every spouse can say that, but we did. ⁓ and so Michelle Kirk: Mm. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Mm, mm. Anna Casey: Reminding reminding myself, you know what? He could actually get out. I could you know what I mean? Like I could actually go get a full-time job and X, Y, and Z. But what at what cost? And so reminding myself that I'm not a prisoner, I'm not actually a prisoner in this situation. and there are things that I can control. And when I can't control X, Y, and Z. Michelle Kirk: Mm, mm. Right. Mm hmm. Right. Yes. Right. Anna Casey: because this is the life we've chosen, what are the things I can control? ⁓ I can control me taking my kids out on a trip. I can go see my parents. I can go, you know what I mean? I can I can do all these th like getting creative with what you can control, I feel like, is really ⁓ is really helpful and that all came from you. Michelle Kirk: Mm. Hm. Exactly. Yes. Mm-hmm. Anna Casey: saying that resentment is unmet expectations and feeling out of control. So what can you control? Right? Michelle Kirk: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and one of one of our basic human needs is a need for autonomy or choice. And and military spouse, you know, in our life, it can feel like we don't have control over our lives and we don't have choice. And so what I love that you just mentioned is that we might not have control over and choice over everything, you know, where we live or the schedule our husbands or spouses work, but we can make choices and so Anna Casey: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Michelle Kirk: So how can we build some autonomy into our life so that that need is being met and so that we can endure the rest of it? Anna Casey: That's awesome. Yeah. It's so good. I wanted to ask you about resilience specifically when it comes to kids, because you have so much experience, you know, with three kids under three, especially, like as you're working on your doctorate, at like being a military spouse. When how did your kids handle the deployments and the T DYs? And like, did you see that affecting them? And how did it like were Did they start to act out because they missed their dad? And like were you ever worried about that? And how did that all turn out? I would just love to hear from your experience on that. Michelle Kirk: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. ⁓ well I wanna ⁓ preface this or maybe as a disclaimer that anything I know about psychology or resilience, It when it comes to my kids, I feel like I know nothing. So it's it does it's it's not an easy transfer. It's not an easy transfer. ⁓ I feel like I'm getting a different degree in that. But we were we were very blessed that in the early years of my kids' lives, my husband happened to be in non deployable units. he he was deployed when my when our first was a baby. ⁓ but then after that he was at ROTC and then he was at ⁓ the Sergeant. Anna Casey: Okay. Yeah. That's super encouraging. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Michelle Kirk: Major Academy, and then we went to the old guard at Fort Meyer, which is a non-deployable unit. So we had a good chunk of time where you know we were very blessed. He he wasn't always home, but he was he was home more so than not. so our first, like I'd say, true deployment as a family was at ⁓ out of JBLM in two years ago. So my kids' ages at the time, we we had just had our fourth. So my youngest was like four months old or something at the time. And my and then I had a four, five, I don't know, five, six and eight or something like that. Anyway. Anna Casey: Wow. Wow. Michelle Kirk: Two were in school and two were at home with me. So yeah, like the the going through the deployment, you know, it was interesting. God you know, I I kinda it makes me smile how God prepared prepared me and our family for that experience because I had just spent four years of my professional career writing curriculum on deployment cycle resilience. And so I was studying. Anna Casey: Okay. Wow. Michelle Kirk: It. I was writing the training manuals for service member resilience, but also we had curriculum for military spouses or ⁓ significant others. And so I was like, okay, God, like you prepared me for this. Now, now I take the test. You know, now I have to put this to the test. And so that really helped me to see it as like an opportunity rather than this like big challenge ⁓ and adversity. I mean, I knew it was gonna obviously be hard. I ⁓ knew that, but I also. Anna Casey: Yeah. That's crazy. Yes. Yeah. Mm. Michelle Kirk: also went in knowing like what supports and what what I needed to be able to endure this ⁓ in a way that didn't negatively impact our family's well being. ⁓ Sometimes you do just have to survive, but you know I wanted to come out of it you know feeling stronger. And ⁓ so for us I would say like the number one thing that helped us the family and my kids was having community and really leaning Anna Casey: Okay. Okay. Michelle Kirk: into the community. And that's something that I know we haven't, you know, touched on Anna Casey: Yeah. Michelle Kirk: you know, emphasized yet about resilience, but that's another thing that I've learned from the from the years when I was training and teaching resilience to the then the years of living the life of a military spouse. It's that resilience is does not mean that you rely on your own strength. Resilience means, yes, there are some things that you need to do, you know, ⁓ or can do to help yourself cope with things, but ultimately like Anna Casey: Yeah. Mm. Mm-hmm. Michelle Kirk: Military spouse life, military family life is a team sport and we need each other. ⁓ so the whole like slogan stronger together, like I really embraced that during that deployment season. And my kids, I think that's what benefited my kids was that, you know, from our neighborhood we had a great neighborhood where kids played together, but also where the other adults interacted with my kids. And so, you know, our their friends' dads were also like loving on them and not not replacing. military family life is a team sport and ⁓ we need other. Anna Casey: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Mm. Michelle Kirk: their dad or you know my husband but they were still like being embraced from you know you know from their the community and from our church and from ⁓ just like friendships like the spouse groups you know getting together so Anna Casey: Sure. Mm. Michelle Kirk: I don't think I directly answered your question about the kids, but I think just like focusing on our family health and leaning into community and the resources that we had. and kind of like you had said, like making those choices, like we're not going to like just sit in the house and cry about this. Like we're gonna go out and have adventures and we're gonna go to Mount we're going to Mount Rainier. Just us, you know. Sadly dad has to miss out, but we're gonna do it. Yeah. so yeah, just allowing us to Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. Yes. It's an hour and a half away. Yep. Michelle Kirk: thrive like it's okay for us to have fun when dad's gone and so yeah I don't know does that kinda answer that question a bit? Okay. Anna Casey: Mm. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. I mean, they're gonna be okay, right? Can you tell us they're gonna be okay? Michelle Kirk: Yeah. Yes. They're they're gonna be okay. yeah, yeah. I mean and nowadays too with like the technology and the the deployments, Anna Casey: Okay. Mm-hmm. Michelle Kirk: they were able to video chat, you know, they were to stay in touch, you know, it's ⁓ there's things can do to ⁓ yeah, to ⁓ to help the I guess, through it. But ⁓ they will be okay. I mean that's ⁓ Anna Casey: Mm. That's awesome. Michelle Kirk: There will be hard there will be hard days, there will be hard weeks. You know, there were I was definitely like looking not looking, but like I'd I'd communicate with the teachers to say like, hey, you know, dad just left or dad's been gone for a while, like this you know, this might be going on. Let me know if you see any behaviors. so you're more attuned to it. But yeah, I I think I don't want to say this I It's commonly said like, ⁓ kids are resilient. And that's actually something just like military spouses are resilient. Like I don't believe resilience should ever be used as a label because then that puts pressure and expectations on us to push through and, you know, embrace the suck. I think that Anna Casey: Yeah. Hmm. Okay. Michelle Kirk: I I d I don't know, I haven't found a s a a saying to like replace that, but I I definitely don't like to use that because I think it can put put some pressure on them. I mean it's kinda like label like then that means I have to be and that means that I have to to be positive all the time and that's just not that's not fair. ⁓ so yeah. Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I I think it what what I take away with what you could replace that with is we're not that kids are resilient, but we're stronger together, like you said. Michelle Kirk: Yeah, yeah. Well and like I mean what we know I I I do read, you know, a lot of parenting books and whatnot. And I think right now too, like Anna Casey: Yeah. Michelle Kirk: we can't shield our kids from going through hard things and we shouldn't want to because and and maybe this is getting like resilience is built through going through hard things. It like resilience is a bi is a is a pro byproduct of going through challenges. And so ⁓ it's kind of like a muscle, you know, and so we're exerc during the d during the hard times for the kids for us, like we're just exercising that muscle. And so not that I'd ever want to like Anna Casey: Mm. Sure, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Michelle Kirk: you know, make hard things happen for my kids, but we can't protect them from that and we shouldn't want to because they need that for development and growth. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Anna Casey: Absolutely. We want capable kids. Yeah. ⁓ that's so good. So one thing that I've been thinking about about a lot lately is ⁓ the phrase I can do it. ⁓ And ⁓ I've been thinking a lately about how ⁓ How do I haven't fully processed this, but I wanted to share. Give me a second. It's almost never I can do it. It's almost always we can do it. And I think that that is so true. Like, as especially as a military spouse. Like, don't try to do it all yourself. Like maybe that's a little bit overhyped. I can do it. Michelle Kirk: Mm. Mm. Mm, mhm. Yeah. Yes, yeah. Yeah. Anna Casey: replace that with we can do it because what does that mean? That means that you have to find community. It takes that pressure off of like, I have to do this all myself. I have to grit and grind this out. But who can I do this with? Who can my people be that like support me and come around me? ⁓ so yeah, I that's why I have a hat now. It says we can do it. Michelle Kirk: Mm. Mm-hmm, mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Anna Casey: Yeah. Michelle Kirk: Yeah, I I honestly I feel like that's been my biggest source of resilience through these last few years of my military spouse life is is the community aspect and that it's a like resilience is a team sport, military spouse life military life is a team sport and we need other people and other people need us. And so I mean I I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with saying I can do this or like I I say I can do hard things, you know, like I can do this, like I Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Sure, sure. Yes, yes. Michelle Kirk: said that yesterday putting together my kids little ride on Jeep. I was like, this looks hard. I was like, I can do this. so so yeah we Anna Casey: Yeah. Yes. I can do hard things. Yeah. Michelle Kirk: I can do this, I can do hard things, but I don't have to do it alone. So we can do this and and it's more fun to do it with other people. and we need other people to validate our experience, like and to say, yes, this this is hard and you're allowed to feel that way. Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. That's good. Okay, Michelle. final question. In what ways do you hope to leave your mark on the military community? And what do you wish that every soldier or family knew? Michelle Kirk: I I think just what we just talked about, I think it's that you don't have to do this alone and that we do need other people. The military, while it does come at a cost and there's lots of sacrifices, there's also so much opportunity in it, and there's so many benefits. And so like leaning into those benefits, whether it's I mean, I use the health coaching through Military One Source, I use local resources all the time. they're there for us and they're free, you know, just taking advantage of those. but yeah, I think it's it's like embracing that the village mindset and find your people and that can be really hard, especially when you PCS. And you know, I'll I'll share just like real quickly, like when we left JBLM where I had this really like rich community, it took me a while to be ready to find that. And I think that is common, you know, sometimes it's just like you're just shut off. Like I just don't want to meet new friends because I don't want to say goodbye again. And like I it felt very different for me to not plug in right away here and not try to find my person here. ⁓ ⁓ But I had friendships, long distance friends, who were sustaining me, you know, and sustaining that need for like the social and the the community as connection aspect. But now, like now that I am like open to like investing in relationships here, I am realizing like, ⁓ yeah, we do need people where we're at. You know, we do need to ⁓ you know, root ourselves where we are and find a sense of belonging where we are. So I guess in that note, I just say Anna Casey: Mm-hmm. Mm, mm. Michelle Kirk: like take it's okay to take your time and grieve what you've lost before you're ready to be open for the next but the bottom line though is that we need each other and resilience is fueled through connection so yeah reach out Anna Casey: That that's so good. ⁓ thank you, Michelle. This was amazing. I'm so grateful for you. where can people, if they have questions, ⁓ can people email you? Can they reach out? Where could people find you and connect? Michelle Kirk: Yeah, ⁓ I suppose the best way would be through Facebook. I'm old, so I use Facebook mostly. you can find me there, me a message, ⁓ my email you can email me as well. Anna Casey: Mm. ⁓ Michelle Kirk: you're to message me, either way. Anna Casey: Awesome. ⁓ thank you, Michelle. This was such a treat. ⁓ All right. Michelle Kirk: ⁓ Thanks for me.