Latest / The Relentless Pursuit of Winning Podcast / How Experts Use Books to Build Authority and Business Growth | H.J. Chammas

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How Experts Use Books to Build Authority and Business Growth | H.J. Chammas · The Relentless Pursuit of Winning Podcast

0:00
A lot of authors ask themselves the question,
0:02
who's my niche? The answer is simple.
0:04
It's under your nose.
0:05
I rarely have seen someone putting money in the bank because of royalties.
0:09
You're investing maybe more than the royalties to get that sales,
0:13
to get promoted, to get discoverable on all those platforms.
0:17
So basically it's a net zero game.
0:18
If that book is positioning you to get speaking engagements the consultancy deal
0:23
or the coaching deal, a book now could transform lives,
0:27
but also helps you to monetize your services.
0:31
If you're the hero, you're dead.
0:32
You should be the guide. Every content should start with the audience.
0:52
Hey, welcome to another episode of the Relentless Pursuit of Winning podcast.
0:55
My name is Rick Meekins. I'm your host today,
0:57
and in our studio, we have H.J.
0:59
Chammas. How are you today, sir?
1:01
Hey Rick, good morning. Really glad to be here.
1:04
Thanks for having me.
1:05
I'm glad you're here as well.
1:06
cool, man. Let's let's get into the show.
1:07
But before we do, we would
1:09
Be honored. We appreciate it. If you would like,
1:12
subscribe and hit the bell so that you can get updates every time we drop
1:15
a new episode. Now, without further ado,
1:17
as we always do, let's get into it.
1:18
So, sir, would you please give us a little your background,
1:21
who you are, what you do, and why you do what you do?
1:24
Sure, sure. So basically I'm H.J.
1:25
Chammas. I'm the guy who helps coaches,
1:27
consultants, experts, entrepreneurs to turn what they know,
1:32
their expertise, to turn that into books that build them credibility,
1:37
authority, visibility, and business growth.
1:40
As simple as that.
1:41
So so what's what's your background?
1:42
How did you how did you get into this?
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I mean, this is this is some I mean,
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I talk to book publishers, book writers,
1:48
but your story, the way that you present it sounds a little bit different than than
1:53
what I'm used to. So I'm assuming that there's a little bit of background,
1:57
there's a little bit history about how you got into this place.
1:58
There is actually, it's a bit of
2:00
an irony in a way, my background story.
2:02
So basically I started as an author,
2:06
but as a failed author, I failed big time.
2:09
Failed author. that's fine.
2:09
Yeah. So when I started, and when I started back in 2017 as an author at that time,
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I had the dream that I was the next Robert Kiyosaki in the world,
2:20
you know, because I made the three-year stint,
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Yeah.
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became financially independent with a poor background from a poor family and just,
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you know, found my way out of that.
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And I approached one of the biggest publishing companies in the world.
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I wanted the Penguin logo on my book and they told me,
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who the hell are you?
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to go through a traditional publishing route.
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You like you're no one, you're not like have a million follower
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or 100,000 whatever and stuff like that.
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You're just a person. And it was a slap on the face,
2:46
Uh-huh.
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but they told me, we loved your book,
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we loved your content and we wanna publish that,
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but we have a sister company that still has the Penguin logo,
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but you have to invest in that.
3:00
And I invested $65,000 in a book
3:04
that failed. Now I see you look,
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you see, might think this guy's stupid,
3:09
naive, whatever. Yes, I was all of that.
3:11
I have peace with it. Trust me,
3:13
I I I wanted I w I
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I have peace with it.
3:15
wanted to ret I actually wanna understand what your definition of failure is.
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You know what I'm saying? Because I mean some people put their book
3:21
Actually
3:23
out there and they just they just wanna change the world.
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They just want to impact lives.
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But it sounds like you may have had a different definition.
3:30
I wanted to impact lives, but my failure was because nobody discovered my book,
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number one. Nobody knew it existed.
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And third is it was my own definition of success was wrong.
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I was more on the ego side. I wanted to send hundreds of thousands
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of copies and millions of copies and get those royalties and impact the world.
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So my definition of success was wrong.
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And this is when I went into the rabbit hole to study the whole publishing industry
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and to study
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those authors who made it not from the traditional publishing route,
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who made it through their book by self-publishing and making an impact,
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the footprint in the world. And when I studied that,
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it came to me that it's not about royalties,
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it's not about selling books, because even if you sell one copy,
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but that copy changes lives, transforms someone's lives,
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I would say that's a success.
4:21
Huh.
4:23
okay. So tell me something. So I mean,
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I need to I really, really need to understand this.
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So you invested sixty-five thousand dollars.
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Okay, that's that's cold cash.
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You earned that money. That was money that was in your bank account that
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you no longer have access to. What did this publishing company do for
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Exactly.
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you for that money? I mean, just I mean,
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because I mean, you know, our audience,
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these, you know, we ha do have book publishers,
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you know, or or buck reports.
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book writers, authors, people with books in them,
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you know, in the audience. And,
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you know, we've we've got to we've got to be able to understand,
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you know, what we're getting into before we even go down that route.
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So what did you get for sixty five thousand dollars?
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so basically when I started out,
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things were not as we have them today.
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So nowadays, the GPT and Amazon are much more available for everyone.
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Everybody has got educated on them because of so many channels and stuff.
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When I first started, I was lost.
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Yeah.
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I had this manuscript. I don't know how to get it out.
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Even if I tried to learn how to get it out myself,
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it looked so complicated. And because of that complication,
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I just wanted someone to do it for me.
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Yeah.
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And they promised me that we're going to publish the manuscript and we're going
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to promote it and we're going to put it in bookstores and we're going
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to do the unthinkable in a way.
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And all of that happened is basically they took my manuscript.
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Yeah.
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They didn't challenge the content even,
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which now I currently do with my,
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with my authors. I challenge the content and we make sure that is going
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to make impact. We studied the target readers.
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Yeah.
5:49
They didn't do any of that. They just published it as it is.
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Did some.
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you know, basic editing just to,
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it's grammatically right and you know,
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this kind of stuff. And they just published on Amazon on a couple of book retailers.
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And then they start to suck me in into some services because the 65K was
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not in one payment. So I paid like a couple of like 15K or 20K for the publishing.
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Then they told me now to get visibility,
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you need to get this service and that service.
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So I started to pay 3, 5K after each other.
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And each one resulted in nothing.
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Checking my royalties, checking my sales,
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basically maybe my grandpa and my mom and my brother.
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So maybe those are the people who bought my book,
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a couple of my friends. And that was it.
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Okay, I'm so I'm
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sorry, I'm laughing at you at this point.
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I'm I'm seeing somebody going
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Yeah, but you know, maybe it happened
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to me, it was a blessing in disguise actually.
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Yeah.
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I call it now my 65K tuition for my PhD learning how to publish.
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There you go.
6:56
There you go. Wow. That's you know,
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I guess when you think about a PhD,
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that's that's not that expensive.
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You know, I I think you know, I I think in all reality though,
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with my understanding of what you're doing now,
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I mean, it was it was a worthwhile investment because,
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you know, not only have you published more books,
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you know, for yourself, but you've also helped other people,
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you know, with publishing their books,
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you know, and you're steering them away from,
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you know, those those, you know,
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poor investments and you're helping them make the right investments
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to and to actually get
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you know, the authority and that sort of thing that they're looking for.
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So, you know, I thank you on behalf of all all the authors out there that
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get a chance to work.
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Thanks. Yeah, so look at the way I see it.
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When we want to publish a book,
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it's not about us. It's about them,
7:40
Mm-hmm.
7:41
the readers. And I think now, because you asked me also my definition
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of success and failure, when we want to be the hero,
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we are doomed to fail. But when we have our audience,
7:52
Interesting. Tell me more about that.
7:54
the heroes, and we're the guide,
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Man, this is where people will find value in what we're presenting to them.
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And this is where we start really to transform people's lives.
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Tell tell me more about that. You said when we when we set out to be the hero,
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we're doomed to fail. Tell me more.
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Dig dig into that. Help me unpack that a little bit.
8:17
Yeah, sure, because basically,
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let's talk about the non-fiction world.
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This is our area, okay? The non-fiction world,
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every, like, college consultant expert,
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they have their expertise. If you're writing a book to show up your expertise
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Mm-hmm.
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so that the book becomes a sales brochure to what you do,
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nobody will be interested to flip to the second page.
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But if you're, so because the people they see that you're self promoting yourself,
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you're the hero. But if people discovered through the book that you're listening
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Yeah.
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to them, actually you research them,
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you listen to them, you understand them,
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you're just sharing with them their challenges in their own language,
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in their own world, they cannot not that,
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Yeah.
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yeah, this guy gets us, he listens to us,
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he feeds us. And then if you share your own story,
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Yeah.
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you're vulnerable enough to tell them,
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I was in your position at a certain point of time.
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And then if you show up as the guide,
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Yeah.
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telling them you're the hero as the reader,
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I want to help you get out of that pit hole.
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And I'm going to guide you because I was before you in that pit hole.
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People will correlate to you. And in my discovery and all successful books
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is that authors who put themselves as the guide and they make their reader feel that
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I am the one who's going to transform.
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I'm the one who's going to change.
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And I'm the one who's going to be a better person.
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Those are the guys who will get really a lot of attention from the readers
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and they will follow them beyond the book because the book actually it's
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one of the communication media or vehicles,
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but you could nurture the relationship with your audience maybe outside of the book.
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So the book is the starting point.
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It's like the intro.
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It's like, know, when you're getting engaged,
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you get to know the person. But then if they follow up with you
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on your social media, on your website,
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newsletter, you have conversations,
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Yeah.
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and you nurture that relationship,
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this is when I tell the office that we work with,
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the book enables you to get that authority and credibility.
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And it's not the product itself.
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The product actually is what's going to happen after the book,
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which is selling your high ticket services.
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But you're selling the high ticket services is not for the sake
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Yeah.
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of selling them because when you set such a high ticket services,
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actually you're helping others.
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You're also the guide, but now working one-on-one with that hero.
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So is is that kind of your area you work with with authors and consultants that
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are that are focused on high-ticket sales?
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Is that what I understand?
10:52
Yeah, because in the non-fiction world,
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each one has their own methodology,
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if that has their own story, and each one can make their impact
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in the world depending on their own experiences.
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So usually, our niche, which is our target audience,
11:03
Yeah.
11:07
is ourselves when we were in that failure before that,
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at one point of our lives. And when you reflect on that,
11:10
Mm-hmm.
11:14
We need to be frank with the authors because authors always have the dream,
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I want to earn royalties from my book.
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And I tell them, I rarely have seen someone putting money in the bank because
11:27
of royalties. Because that's half of the equation actually.
11:30
To get that royalties, of course you're gonna get royalties,
11:30
Okay.
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but You're investing maybe more than the royalties to get that sales,
11:37
to get promoted, to get discoverable on all those platforms.
11:41
So basically it's a net zero game.
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Maybe you're losing. Sometimes you call it a loss leader.
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Sometimes you're going to lose money.
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But If that book is positioning you to get speaking engagements or
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to get the consultancy deal or to get the coaching deal,
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which all of those are usually high ticket,
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could range anywhere from 7K to 25K if not more.
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This is how a book now could transform lives,
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but also it helps you to monetize your services.
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So you monetize not from royalties,
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you monetize through the high ticket services that the book will help
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you to get positioned and credible and give you the authority for people
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to believe that you could help them.
12:20
If this makes sense.
12:21
Hm. Y you know what occurs to
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me, so what what you had said was that we write the book essentially
12:27
to the earlier versions of ourselves,
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you know, based on our our personal experience.
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And and correct me if correct me if I'm wrong,
12:34
is it is that did I get that correct?
12:37
Yeah, because A lot of authors ask themselves the question,
12:40
who's my niche? Who's my target audience?
12:41
And they start to do all the research on now with AI on Claude and the Chat
12:42
Yeah.
12:47
GPT and that, and that's the man.
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The answer is simple. It's under your nose.
12:52
You are your niche when you were in your challenge.
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Now you managed to overcome your challenge and now you prepared
12:56
That's interesting.
13:01
to help the old version of you,
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which was your niche.
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navigate through those challenges and get out of it.
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As simple as that.
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A lot of times when we start companies,
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I mean we start companies based on the ideally we start companies based
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on a defined need in the marketplace.
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You know, so we look at people that,
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you know, have the interest the and the ability and the willingness to
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pay us for our services, which may not look like the version of us,
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you know, that, you know, came through that came through this journey.
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How do we how do we rectify that?
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to make sure that we are writing to the right audience and then that does lead into
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that high ticket sale opportunity.
13:42
it all starts from my experience,
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start to really research that audience.
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So let's suppose in my case, I was a failed author and now I'm helping authors,
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like specifically in the non-fiction world to publish their book
13:57
and then monetize their services.
13:58
So, but each one has their own industry and their own market.
13:59
Yeah.
14:02
So what we have them do is, who's your target reader?
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And actually, target data should be your target customer when
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you build that consultancy business,
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let's call it for now. So now with all the tools we have under our hands,
14:10
Okay.
14:15
like the Google tools and the AI tools and the Amazon,
14:18
there are some applications that can help you research all those tools.
14:21
Yeah.
14:21
We could read the market. We could read the market basically because people
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go on search engines like Google and YouTube and Amazon,
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and they search for something.
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They type in something. If we extract the data,
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and quantify the data, we would have some numbers telling us the biggest pain points
14:41
that this target audience are facing.
14:44
So basically think of it like this.
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What's waking them up at 2 AM in the morning?
14:48
If you could answer that, now you could present a solution.
14:48
Yeah.
14:50
Otherwise, you're creating a product,
14:53
going back to your question, that you didn't research if that product
14:56
is a solution to any problem. And if you just launch it,
15:02
Most probably it's going to be noise in the world and nobody will really
15:05
be willing to purchase it. But if it's answering,
15:08
if it's addressing a problem, if it's a solution for that problem,
15:11
basically everybody would be willing to investigate it further,
15:16
to try it out, to have a conversation with you because you nailed the challenge.
15:21
You understood them and you presented to them a way to get out of that challenge.
15:27
And now they're willing to have a conversation with you.
15:30
Mm. It it sounds to me like,
15:33
and I I don't know if you position this with your audience this way,
15:36
but it I mean, it sounds to me no different than starting a business.
15:38
You know, so I'm gonna look for,
15:40
you know, I'm gonna look for a problem that or I'm gonna look for a target audio.
15:44
I don't know, we look for a target audience,
15:46
you look at, you know, match between,
15:48
you know, my skills and ability and,
15:50
you know, what a an an audience could potentially need.
15:53
I create a product for that. I push it,
15:55
you know, I market it, I get it out to that audience.
15:57
My my
15:58
ideal is to make money doing that or at the very least at the beginning,
16:02
you know, you know, try to try to have a plan towards breaking even.
16:05
What is what is what is and so I say that from my perspective,
16:10
I mean, but what is the journey that you take your authors on?
16:13
So, going back to what you just said,
16:15
to find the target audience, we don't need to find them because as I told you,
16:19
our target audience was the old version of us.
16:21
So if we understand how do we define ourselves when we were in that challenge,
16:26
we know who they are now. ~ So,
16:28
Right.
16:29
and once you identify that and because if you develop a system or
16:33
a workflow or whatever, a way to get out of that challenge and it's working
16:38
for you and you tested that out on a couple of...
16:41
other people who are like you and you know it works,
16:44
you could present that through a book.
16:46
Okay. But now to get their attention,
16:50
you need to have the right, we call them hooks,
16:53
the right hooks within the book,
16:54
within the listing of the book actually,
16:57
all those pages to explain to them that this is your problem.
16:58
Mm-hmm.
17:02
And now if you hook them up with the problem and they understand you read them,
17:07
they're gonna give you that attention,
17:09
wow, because that's what on their mind.
17:11
If it's on their mind 2 a.m. in the morning,
17:13
it's gonna be on their mind throughout the day,
17:14
actually. If you use the same language,
17:16
Yeah, yeah.
17:18
the same terminology, the same words,
17:19
they're gonna get attention because this is what's bothering them now.
17:23
And if they see that you wear in their shoes at one point of time,
17:28
they're gonna believe more of you.
17:29
So you have to be vulnerable enough to show them that you failed,
17:32
actually, because...
17:33
Mm-hmm.
17:34
And they will believe that this guy is only a few steps ahead of us.
17:37
He managed to get out of that.
17:38
Mm-hmm.
17:39
Let him or let her help me.
17:44
this, for me, becomes the least.
17:46
You know, when you launch a product,
17:48
usually there is some friction for people why to check it out and believe you.
17:54
But if you develop a product for them,
17:57
it becomes easier for them to digest on it and to believe in you.
18:01
Right, right, right, right, right.
18:03
I I I like that. I like that. So we we cut we kind of codify the
18:07
the development of the the actual the writing of the book.
18:10
you know, we're we're authentic,
18:12
we're you know, transparent where we need to be.
18:14
We actually provide value, we're providing,
18:16
you know, an excellent solution or a solution for them.
18:18
I th I think where we drop off sometime as authors is is actually that,
18:23
you know, perhaps that that go to market,
18:25
that next step. You know, and and there's there's
18:29
different approaches to that. So you talk about it in terms of,
18:32
okay, we're using this book to provide the authority so that we can sell,
18:36
you know, a higher dollar item.
18:38
How do we launch from that, okay,
18:40
we've got a book that's on Amazon that's selling or that's available,
18:44
I should say, on Amazon to, okay,
18:45
I savate about this stuff, yes.
18:47
we're you know, people are buying the book,
18:49
people are picking the book up.
18:50
How does how does that piece of it work?
18:52
Sure. So basically to go a step back and then go back to zoom in here,
18:57
the system I developed and I discovered through my research boils down
19:00
to three main pillars. It's like a tripod.
19:03
If one of those legs is broken,
19:05
the whole thing will never be sustainable,
19:07
which is published, which is step one we spoke about.
19:09
Step two is promote and step three is impact slash monetize.
19:10
Yeah.
19:15
Let's talk about the promote, which is your question now.
19:16
Okay.
19:18
Okay. So once our book is out there,
19:19
Sure.
19:22
We set it up for success. if we use the same,
19:25
know, if we did the research and we made sure that we presented the solution
19:28
and we use the right keyword, SEO,
19:30
blah, blah, we're sure it's discoverable,
19:31
Mm-hmm.
19:33
but still we need to promote it.
19:34
Now what happens here as the mistake I always see authors doing,
19:39
they...
19:39
They bought people out and I used to be one of those by the way,
19:42
when I published my first book and I go to social media and that's
19:46
my book and that's my book and that's my book and people will,
19:48
okay, the first time they will give you,
19:49
bravo, well done, beautiful, love,
19:52
likes, whatever. The next time it's gonna be pain in the neck.
19:53
Uh-huh.
19:55
Come on man, we had enough of you,
19:56
okay? So I think that the different route I take it is
19:57
Ha ha ha ha.
20:02
in a way we start promoting the author platform.
20:07
which is the author personal brand before we promote the book.
20:09
Mm-hmm.
20:12
So think of it, the stronger the author platform,
20:13
Okay. Okay.
20:16
the easier it is to sell books,
20:18
but the more books it sells, the author platform and personal brand will improve.
20:23
The more it improves, it's gonna sell more books.
20:26
It's like stacking that ladder,
20:28
each one will fit into the other.
20:28
Yeah.
20:30
So how do we work on that author authority or the author platform?
20:31
Yeah.
20:37
Basically, it's about getting,
20:40
I call that borrowing authority in a way.
20:42
Rick, are you still with me? You're frozen,
20:44
yeah?
20:44
You're you're fine. Just keep just keep going.
20:45
okay, yeah,
20:46
yeah. So it's about, I'll call that borrowing authority.
20:50
For example, let's imagine today,
20:53
I am a guest in your podcast. At your podcast,
20:58
you have your own audience, your own fans.
21:02
People trust you, your fan and your audience trust you.
21:05
So they're gonna think now, if that guy or that lady is being a guest
21:10
on Rick's show,
21:12
That means Rick starts trust that person.
21:14
So automatically we're borrowing the trust of that host now and we're leveraging
21:19
the network because they have their own audience.
21:21
We're going to be in front of a new audience.
21:23
And if we really transform them,
21:27
manage to really add value on that show,
21:30
people will be encouraged to check us out,
21:34
at least on social media, our website,
21:36
maybe our new free book or whatever.
21:37
Mm-hmm.
21:38
Mm-hmm.
21:39
call leverage. We're leveraging other people's network,
21:42
but also borrowing the authority from them.
21:44
Second thing is on developing the author platform is about,
21:50
you know, getting nominated for literary awards.
21:53
Like I'm 55 years old now. I go watch a movie trailer.
21:56
Most of the times there are new authors,
21:58
new actors, sorry, I don't know them.
22:00
If I watch the trailer and the teller tells me that's an award-nominated actor
22:05
or movie, automatically,
22:07
The friction is less, I'm gonna put two hours of my time and watch the movie.
22:10
The same thing applies for a book,
22:11
Mm.
22:12
new author, new book, nobody knows them.
22:14
If they are award nominated, this lowers the friction,
22:18
they're gonna invest six hours of their time to read your book.
22:21
So it's not about the price of the book,
22:22
Mm-hmm.
22:23
it's about the time they're gonna invest with you.
22:24
But now imagine you're being on a podcast,
22:25
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
22:28
not one here and one there, regularly being on podcasts,
22:31
then getting nominated. And then the third thing is about...
22:35
the third pillar in promoting the author brand is about each one of us
22:41
in their own circle. They are connected to thought leaders in their
22:45
own market or their own industry.
22:47
And we need to leverage that. Imagine now gifting them copies of our book,
22:52
asking them for a book blurb. But that book blurb becomes a kind
22:56
of an endorsement from those thought leaders about us and our book.
23:00
Those are low hanging fruits that really could help us.
23:00
Hm.
23:03
built all that authority and author platform.
23:05
And did you notice I haven't spoken about book promotion yet.
23:08
It's all about the author.
23:09
Mm mm. Right.
23:12
Then once you're doing all of that,
23:13
now of course you could do some speaking engagements,
23:16
even if it's for free in the beginning,
23:18
because you need to show up there,
23:18
Mm-hmm.
23:19
you need to start positioning yourself as the authority.
23:21
So we need to do all those kinds of things so that the moment
23:25
you start promoting the book,
23:27
People started to notice us because we've been on podcasts,
23:29
we're getting nominated, people are speaking about us,
23:32
we're getting on certain events as speakers,
23:34
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
23:35
know? It's then to know about us and it becomes easier to sell those copies because
23:41
we can run some ads on Amazon,
23:42
we can do some book promotion sites and all that stuff,
23:45
Yeah.
23:45
but now on a stronger platform,
23:47
not on a weak foundation.
23:49
It makes sense. It makes sense.
23:51
It it actually takes me back to what you originally said about your your original
23:54
investment, you know, where Penguin was saying,
23:56
Hey, you're not you know, you're not Rabakiyasaki.
23:58
You don't have a hundred thousand,
23:59
you don't have a million followers.
24:00
Yeah, they told me who the hell are you?
24:00
You know, so you kind of reverse engineer that.
24:03
That's brilliant. That's brilliant.
24:04
That that makes that makes complete sense.
24:06
That makes complete sense. And I mean,
24:07
even as a podcast host, you know,
24:09
I c I can certainly see that. You know,
24:10
I put out hundreds of videos, but you know,
24:12
it's it's it's I recognize that there's some authority to that,
24:16
but I also recognize that c that could be broadened,
24:18
you know, in the same way that you would do that with with an author.
24:21
I think that's brilliant. I think that's absolutely brilliant.
24:23
So so we t we talked about the building the author authority.
24:29
When do we get to the point where we're actually promoting the book
24:32
and and what sorts of things do we do so let me let me let me back up from that.
24:37
So my expectation is that, you know,
24:40
once this book is live, we've built some authority,
24:42
we go on a book tour. Is it is that what we do at this point?
24:45
Or is there a different strategy,
24:47
a different approach that you take?
24:49
Yes, sure. So first of all, let me do a quick answer and then we go into the steps.
24:54
A lot of people out there believe,
24:57
because I think they were misled by the industry,
25:00
that you could be a best-selling author in one week or on the launch or whatever.
25:06
That gave me... I mean, you could do that,
25:10
but it will not get you any benefit.
25:12
You know what I mean? So it's not about being a best-selling author or whatever,
25:12
Okay.
25:14
because it's really about...
25:17
growing organically with your personal brand so that eventually
25:21
you become discoverable and you're planting many seeds.
25:24
You're planting all those seeds.
25:25
The more seeds you plant, the more people start talking about you.
25:29
So it's a journey against those that you have a peak,
25:31
Mm-hmm.
25:33
the launch day, you get the best seller and then you disappear
25:36
on the roller coaster. So what do you do?
25:37
Yeah.
25:38
So we spoke about the author building,
25:40
the author platform. Now let's talk about book promotions.
25:43
Number one thing, in my opinion,
25:45
we need to be where the audience is hanging out.
25:49
So if we look at Amazon, Amazon is the market leader as a book retailer.
25:54
But Amazon is more than a book retailer.
25:55
Right.
25:57
It's a search engine like Google,
25:59
actually. And it allows us as authors or sellers to advertise
26:05
our products on their platform.
26:07
So when I say advertisers, it's not a banner or whatever.
26:10
Basically, we're telling Amazon,
26:12
if somebody searches for that phrase or that keyword,
26:16
which is the challenge of our target audience,
26:18
I'm paying Amazon to show up my book for that search results.
26:18
Mm-hmm.
26:22
Mm-hmm.
26:24
Now, if it shows my book and it converts into sales,
26:27
Amazon is going to show more of my book for future search inquiries
26:30
Mm-hmm.
26:34
at a lower bid. So we keep on doing that.
26:36
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
26:38
The more we convert, the more we're going to dominate those search terms
26:44
so that over time,
26:46
Our bidding becomes solo or even we don't need to bid for those keywords because
26:50
we kind of dominated them over time because we proved to the algorithm that
26:54
Mm-hmm.
26:55
we are converting for those search inquiries.
26:58
But more than that, whoever is reading the book is happy because we're getting
27:02
all the positive customer reviews because it's all about the user experience.
27:07
So when Amazon sees you're converting and you're having positive customer reviews,
27:11
the social proof, they're going to show more and more and more of your book.
27:15
This is the way to leverage the algorithm.
27:19
Now, of course, there are some other book promotion sites.
27:20
Mm.
27:23
There are hundreds of them. And only less than 5 % are credible enough
27:28
to really get your results. We've burned a lot of money here and there
27:30
Okay.
27:32
to just know what works and what doesn't work.
27:34
So we need to leverage those. Actually,
27:37
look at them. It's like also borrowing their email list.
27:41
So they have their email subscribers.
27:43
and they kind of categorize their email subscribers into categories like non-fiction
27:49
fiction or business books or whatever.
27:51
And you could ask them to promote that book for you as the author
27:57
and they're gonna communicate it to that category of their email list.
28:00
And now you're leveraging other people's network as well to promote those books.
28:04
Mm.
28:06
Now the book tour and stuff, of course,
28:08
but this is something
28:09
Will it make it or break it? No.
28:11
You do that for the visibility because just the book tour,
28:11
Yeah. Okay.
28:15
by the way, will get you a lot of footage that you could use now
28:20
on your social platforms that you're actively doing this.
28:21
Yeah.
28:23
It gets your visibility in a way,
28:24
but it's not what's going to move the needle.
28:27
So I've seen a lot of authors do the book tours alone and they don't get results.
28:27
Yeah.
28:31
They get the love, the loves and the likes and the claps.
28:32
Yeah.
28:34
but they don't get the results they wanted.
28:35
Yeah. Right.
28:36
So you need to do the foundation right.
28:38
And everything you do is nice to have,
28:40
it's cherry on the top. It helps a bit,
28:42
but it's not what's gonna move the whole thing.
28:45
Interesting. Interesting. Yeah,
28:46
but I've always I've you know,
28:48
I've I've really been trying to reconcile that.
28:49
It's like, you know, you put the t I've I interview a lot of authors and you know,
28:54
it's I I wonder it's like you put the time and effort into into doing
28:58
all the interviews and you know,
29:00
speaking engagements and that sort of thing.
29:01
And it's like, how do you really do this in a way and it's it's one
29:06
of it's really interesting, as as I'm thinking about this.
29:08
So I think about it in terms of we invest the time,
29:10
you know, we're ideally we're gonna produce some results.
29:14
You know, there is an ROI conversation,
29:17
but I think that as you've alluded to,
29:19
that ROI needs to be measured over time.
29:21
You know what I'm saying? So we do the book tour,
29:24
but we do it in a way, it's kind of a question,
29:27
but we do it in a way where we're still responsible with our time and we look
29:32
at our ROI from you know two to three years out rather than saying,
29:36
Okay, I want to be a number one seller on you know,
29:39
New York Times bestseller.
29:41
you know, within, you know, this year or something like that.
29:43
Is is that kind of what you're alluding to?
29:46
Do I have that correct?
29:47
Yeah,
29:48
and I think that she should not be about being a bestseller or no.
29:51
I mean, it helps. It helps to be a bestseller.
29:52
Okay. What should it be about?
29:54
It's nice to have, but it's not what's going to make you monetize or no.
29:57
Let me give you a few examples.
29:59
We have among our authors, we have an author who sells less than 100 copies
30:04
of their book a month. OK,
30:06
Okay.
30:07
so it's nothing major here.
30:09
But the conversion rate from whoever is reading the book to their website
30:14
is around 17%. So 17 persons will go to their website and will register
30:21
to answer to an assessment or whatever,
30:23
which gets them on the call with the author.
30:25
Remember, the author is sending high ticket service.
30:28
Okay.
30:29
because of those few book sales,
30:31
and this is what they want to invest because this is their strategy,
30:34
They got an incremental business of more than 500K a year coming only from leads
30:40
from the book. So it's not about making it amount to be in your time
30:44
by selling certain thousand copies in a week or whatever,
30:46
okay? It's about even if 50 copies or 100 copies could get
30:47
Yeah.
30:50
you enough substantial business on your high ticket services.
30:55
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
30:56
And of course we have authors
30:57
who are more than actually millions a year.
31:00
And we have authors who are barely making a hundred K.
31:02
So I'm not telling that each author will be successful in what they
31:06
do because it's a combination.
31:08
The book will help you to show up there.
31:10
But if your services are not solid and do not make changes,
31:10
Yeah.
31:15
nobody will become a recurring client with you.
31:18
They could try you once you fail them and that's it.
31:21
So it's all about, you know, it's a whole package.
31:24
You need to have something solid before the book.
31:27
Wow, wow, wow. That that that makes total sense.
31:29
That makes total sense. If we miss on one part of this,
31:32
then you you know, you talk about the three legged stool.
31:34
If we miss on one piece of this,
31:36
then we're not gonna be successful.
31:37
I think one of one of the the areas that is is kind of that black
31:42
box is actually what that what that conversion is gonna look like.
31:46
You know, so we've got the book,
31:47
you know, we've figured out what the content needs to be,
31:50
you know, for our target audience,
31:51
you know, we're we're talking about it in the marketplace.
31:55
But, you know, really getting people to move from the book to the website,
32:00
you know, as as you used in your last example,
32:02
how do how do we develop that?
32:04
Because, you know, I mean, there's there's lots of assessments out there.
32:08
You know, I can go to a hundred websites and find,
32:10
you know, 20 or 30 assessments out there for different topics.
32:13
You know, what's going to make someone move from the book to the website
32:17
and then the website to actually,
32:19
you know, becoming a client?
32:19
I love that.
32:21
I love that. Okay, let's imagine this is my coffee.
32:24
Think of this as a trust tank,
32:25
Ha ha ha.
32:27
okay? When someone reads your book and stays hours with
32:28
Okay.
32:33
you on the book, the trust tank is getting filled by a bit.
32:37
The tip of the trust tank is what they convert,
32:38
Yeah. Yeah.
32:40
but the book will only get them filled up to here.
32:42
You need now to nurture that relationship.
32:47
So within the book, you know, remember we talk about nonfiction.
32:49
When you say the story or case studies of some clients,
32:53
et cetera, and you know strategically when the emotions are high,
32:58
when the pain is high in a way,
32:59
you tell them that I have a tool for you to assess as an example where you are,
33:05
or I have a workbook for you.
33:05
Mm. Mm. ~
33:07
or have a free
33:08
course for you or whatever, or a one-on-one conversation.
33:10
Each author has their own stuff.
33:11
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
33:12
We need to understand that, of course.
33:13
Now, when you give them something unexpected,
33:16
they purchase the book for $20.
33:18
Out of the book, you give them another tool,
33:19
Mm-hmm.
33:21
an assessment for free or a workbook for free or whatever.
33:24
The trust tag now gets filled up more because it was unexpected,
33:27
Yeah.
33:28
it's more value, and they didn't pay for it.
33:30
I'm expecting
33:32
okay.
33:33
Now, if that assessment really helped them clarify their own situation,
33:37
let's call it, and out of that assessment,
33:40
you invited them for a conversation.
33:42
And when I say conversation, I don't mean that you go and send them something.
33:46
No, conversation means you're the guide and they're the hero.
33:49
I always tell our authors, and I do that myself,
33:53
we never go on a conversation to say anything.
33:55
On those conversations, we're helping out.
33:57
That's it, full stop. So now, if you just help them out,
33:59
Yeah.
34:00
The trust tank now, wow, it's getting filled up.
34:02
This guy is weird. I'm used to,
34:05
usually when I go on a call with someone or a webinar,
34:07
they want to send me something.
34:08
Those guys didn't ask for business.
34:10
So the trust tank gets filled up.
34:12
Now when they get on a call with you and when they downloaded your free stuff,
34:16
you get the email, the leads, the contacts.
34:19
Now you can nurture that relationship.
34:21
You can send them maybe your newsletter and
34:25
Each newsletter, each whatever,
34:27
maybe a podcast episode, maybe a blog,
34:29
maybe whatever, it should always be about value,
34:30
Mm-hmm.
34:31
not selling them, not trying to sell anything,
34:34
no upsell, no downsell, no shit,
34:35
nothing, really adding value. But guess what?
34:36
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
34:38
When they see you always adding,
34:40
now the trust tank is really filled up.
34:42
Whenever they're ready, and trust me,
34:42
Yeah.
34:45
it happens always like this, they're gonna come to you,
34:47
you're gonna be at the top of mind.
34:49
This guy never asked for business,
34:51
has been always there for us. They helped us navigate our journey.
34:55
Whenever we're ready emotionally,
34:57
energy level, time, leisure level,
34:59
and money-wise level to invest,
35:01
we're going to be top of mind.
35:03
They're going to come to us and the conversation will change.
35:06
It will not be anymore, hey, Rick,
35:09
tell me about you and prove to me the case studies and I want to make sure that
35:12
I'm with the right. No, they already know all that thing about you.
35:13
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
35:16
The conversation will change, Rick.
35:18
with you for the last six months on that journey from the book.
35:21
I got on a conversation with you,
35:22
we did the assessment, we did this,
35:24
we did that. I'm ready man, how can you help me?
35:27
And the whole conversation changes here.
35:28
Yeah. Yeah.
35:31
Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. That makes sense.
35:34
The I I love the trust bank analogy.
35:36
That that's that's really on point.
35:38
I was I was thinking about a book that an author I bumped into,
35:41
you know, saw a video on YouTube.
35:42
He didn't try to sell his book,
35:44
you know, which which I thought was brilliant,
35:46
you know, and I watched the whole video and the video was interesting.
35:49
It created a lot of value for me.
35:50
And then towards the end of the video he says,
35:53
Yes, in my book, I it's like book,
35:55
what book?
35:56
You know, and I went in the show notes and I'm like,
35:58
wow, this guy's got a book. And I went and I bought the book,
36:00
you know, right like right away.
36:02
And it's it's rare, you know, that that I would do that.
36:05
You know, but I I think that it it follows your it follows your your methodology.
36:11
And the interesting thing is that he had a mentor.
36:15
And I also read his mentor's books.
36:17
Or I'm actually reading his his mentor's book now,
36:19
you know, from the same thing.
36:21
Now, had he had
36:23
a high ticket high ticket sales item,
36:26
I d I don't know. I mean, I I may have purchased it.
36:28
I I and I'm just saying all that to say that I really understand.
36:33
I I really think that that's a great approach.
36:35
I think that's a brilliant approach.
36:36
Tell tell me something though.
36:38
what what are some pitfalls? You know,
36:40
what what are some things that authors run into that kind of sideline the work,
36:47
all of this work? You know, they're they've they've you know they've identified
36:50
the market. They're you know
36:52
creating the book, you know, based on that earlier version of themselves.
36:55
You know, they're doing this the self promotion as an author,
36:58
creating authority. They're doing the promotion of the book.
37:01
They've got their high ticket sales.
37:03
What what are some things that can go wrong?
37:05
What can make it yeah.
37:07
Actually, there are many pitfalls I want to mention if you're one them.
37:10
~
37:10
We spoke about the hero and the guide.
37:12
If you're the hero, you're dead.
37:13
You should be the guide. Remember that.
37:15
Number two is if you write about what you know best,
37:16
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
37:20
which is perfectly fine, of course,
37:22
but with this regarding what your audience wants to learn about,
37:26
you're also dead. So Every content should start with the audience.
37:31
So that's very important. Number three is if the ambition of the book
37:33
Mm-hmm.
37:36
is to sell your ego, like vanity stuff,
37:39
it won't happen. It should be always about them.
37:40
Mm-hmm.
37:43
It should be really that You should add value to them through the book.
37:47
So actually the book by itself without needing your services should move the needle.
37:52
For example, in my book, Publish Promote Monetize,
37:52
Mm-hmm.
37:54
which I'll offer to your audience at the end of today's episode,
37:58
If somebody goes through it, they don't need us.
38:01
We're not trying to sell anything.
38:02
They could follow all the steps if they had the time,
38:06
the energy, and the commitment to do it,
38:08
and they don't need anyone to help them.
38:09
They could do it on their own.
38:10
But most of the times, people don't have time for that because what they
38:15
do best is selling their services.
38:16
I'm a consultant. I'm an expert.
38:17
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
38:18
I'm whatever, But if you help them understand
38:24
how it goes,
38:28
Actually, when they become your client,
38:29
they're going to be the best clients in the world because they were already
38:32
pre-educated about your methodology.
38:35
It's going to be fun to have this kind of relationship.
38:36
Yeah.
38:39
They're going to become the best clients,
38:40
actually. They're going to appreciate what you do.
38:42
Any anything else?
38:43
And maybe the last lesson would be don't chase royalties.
38:46
So your book is not the product.
38:47
Mm.
38:48
Your business is the product. What you said as a consultant,
38:51
Your business is a product.
38:53
as a coach is the product and the book or being a guest on a podcast or,
38:57
you know, showing up here and there.
38:59
are tours to help you build that trust.
39:03
And we spoke about earlier so that you could sell your high ticket services.
39:08
Hmm, hm, interesting. I I wonder if there are authors out there,
39:12
you know, that perhaps go in with that at intention and and then just love
39:17
the because I imagine, you know,
39:20
this whole process changes an individual.
39:23
You know, so they were a consultant,
39:25
for example, you know, I was a business consultant for 20 years.
39:27
a consultant, and then, you know,
39:30
they get into authorship, you know,
39:32
and they're doing the speaking engagements and they're doing the book tour
39:35
and they're doing all these things.
39:37
And suddenly it's just like, you know what,
39:39
I just I just wanna be that that public that public figure now.
39:42
I just want to sell books. That's all I want to do.
39:44
I mean, do you see that happening?
39:47
Look, it happens, but remember,
39:49
if they're doing speaking engagements,
39:52
actually they're monetizing there as a public speaker.
39:54
They get paid for that. But they're not going to tell you,
39:54
Right, exactly.
39:57
I'm monetizing my public speaking.
39:59
No, they tell you that I want to make impact.
40:02
Actually, that's a good observation.
40:04
We have some authors who are multimillionaires.
40:04
Yeah.
40:06
They don't need to monetize. But when you speak to them,
40:09
they're business people as well.
40:10
They tell you, I don't need the money for my pocket.
40:13
But I need that stuff to monetize so that I can make more impact.
40:18
It's self-sustaining the way. I'm willing to reinvest all that money into that
40:18
Right. Right.
40:22
funnels and whatever so that I make more impact in the world.
40:26
But there should be a monetization process,
40:29
even if you don't want the money for yourself,
40:31
at least to get reinvested in reaching more people out.
40:36
And this is how you scale your impact in a way.
40:39
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
40:42
That's that's that's brilliant.
40:43
I I think about it, you know, kind of along the lines of,
40:46
you know, just kind of like f refunding that lifestyle,
40:48
you know, so it's just like I do the speaking engagement so I can continue
40:52
to write and do more speaking engagements or,
40:54
you know, whatever that looks like.
40:55
Good stuff. tell me something.
40:58
So you have a you have a giveaway for our audience.
41:00
Do you want to talk about that real quick?
41:02
Yeah, so basically earlier this year,
41:05
actually around March this year,
41:07
Somebody from my team asked me a question.
41:09
They told me, okay, sometimes people can't afford our services.
41:13
Sometimes for whatever reason,
41:14
they can be on board. But because I failed and my mission became
41:18
to really help people out, let's do something about that.
41:22
And then we told them, yes, what we're doing is publish,
41:25
promote, monetize. As simple as that.
41:27
I did the research because on my target audience,
41:30
Publish, promote, monetize, have strong keywords.
41:31
We were already using them in that business because we did our research also even
41:35
before the business. And we built that book.
41:36
Mm-hmm.
41:38
And I made it on a promise to myself that I want to make impact when I'm
41:44
not in the room. I want to make impact when I'm not talking to them on a call.
41:45
Mm-hmm.
41:48
Meaning to say they don't need our services if they follow all of that.
41:53
And then my other part of the team thought I'm crazy.
41:56
How do you do that? This is how they make a tools business.
42:00
And guess what? The more value you add,
42:03
the more you help for free.
42:04
If they don't become your clients,
42:07
they're going to be your best brand ambassadors in the world.
42:10
And they're going to tell other people.
42:10
Yeah.
42:11
We get a lot of referrals from people we don't know because I told them they read
42:15
your book and they told us about you.
42:17
Yeah.
42:17
That's me on that. So and then for those who read the book and they think they don't
42:22
have the time for it, when they come to us,
42:25
they pre-sold. And as I mentioned earlier,
42:28
it's going to be fun to work with them because they know what we're to
42:31
be doing for them. So.
42:32
Yeah, yeah.
42:34
And for those who have the time,
42:35
let them do it and they have to do it.
42:37
They're going to thank us and the universe will pay it back to us in different ways.
42:41
It's as simple as that. So I have this book called Publish Promote Monetize.
42:41
Yeah.
42:45
I really recommend everybody to read it.
42:47
You can get it, you know, they could download a free copy
42:49
of it from authority-publishing.com forward slash book dash BPM.
42:50
Okay.
42:53
Okay.
42:57
Awesome, awesome. And what I'll do is I'll put a copy of that link
42:59
in your show notes. So anybody that sees it on YouTube,
43:01
Perfect.
43:02
Spotify, or you know, on our website,
43:04
they can download it as well. So my favorite question of the day,
43:08
drum roll, please. I I need to get one of those drum roll like music things.
43:11
name of the show obviously is the Relentless Pursuit of Winning Podcast.
43:12
I love that, love that.
43:17
And so
43:18
Mm-hmm.
43:19
You know, winning, you know, as in general is something that,
43:21
you know, we should all be able to define for ourselves,
43:24
you know, whether it's, you know,
43:25
being able to you know, get to the c get to the corner by the time the kids
43:28
get off the bus, you wh whatever that is,
43:30
right? The hard thing sometimes is maintaining that relentless pursuit,
43:31
Mm-hmm.
43:34
doing the things that we need to do every single day or on whatever basis
43:39
to make sure that we're getting we're moving towards that win.
43:42
So my question for you is.
43:44
What would you recommend to someone to help them maintain that relentless pursuit?
43:49
I think if you've developed that expertise and know-how throughout the years,
43:53
don't keep that trapped inside your head.
43:59
Organize it. Actually, when writing the book,
44:02
you mentioned it's going to change the person.
44:03
When you write the book, you're going to get organized with your thoughts.
44:06
Organize it, share it, package it.
44:10
Speaking of monetization,
44:12
It could be through a book, could be through a framework,
44:14
could be through a course, could be through intellectual property,
44:17
through a podcast, but do that,
44:19
share it with the world. Create something that really has value,
44:25
that really helps others. So it's not about selling,
44:27
Mm-hmm.
44:29
it's about helping others, it's about creating value,
44:31
it's about, you know, helping,
44:33
guiding those heroes, yeah? So,
44:35
Yeah.
44:36
and in that way,
44:39
I believe that our knowledge has the chance to outlive us because we're here
44:43
Mm.
44:44
for a certain part, a number of years in our life.
44:46
But what we produce, a podcast,
44:47
Yeah.
44:49
book, all that content will outlive us and will keep our footprint in
44:53
the world and really helping others to benefit from our experiences
44:58
and get ahead in their lives. So please don't keep it to yourself.
45:04
okay. Okay. I I like that. What what I what I took from that was,
45:08
you know, and not keeping it from not keeping it to ourselves,
45:11
but looking at it from that long term perspective,
45:13
you know, what is that what is that legacy?
45:15
What am I leaving behind me? And,
45:17
Exactly.
45:18
you know, just continuing to to work towards that.
45:22
Exactly. we humans, this is what we have been developing.
45:24
We wouldn't have arrived to whatever,
45:27
you know, all the technology we developed this,
45:29
if we didn't count on the, you know,
45:31
the guy who created the light bulb and the guy who created the telephone
45:35
and the electricity, you know.
45:36
We build on that and we need that.
45:36
Yeah.
45:39
So this is like leaving your footprint and let the next generation build
45:42
on the person after you, build on your experience and maybe go to the next level
45:46
and things will grow. This is how we all grow in that universe.
45:51
I love that. I love that. I it's the the he the human exp you you
45:55
you just described the human experience,
45:57
you know, the the evolution. I d I don't think that we always think about
46:01
it from that perspective. You know,
46:03
what are we contributing today,
46:05
you know, that's gonna impact,
46:06
you know, lives tomorrow. And that's that's so important.
46:08
That's brilliant. That's brilliant.
46:09
Thank you for that.
46:11
My pleasure, my pleasure.
46:13
Actually, I'm gonna thank you so much for being on the show.
46:15
This has been enjoyable. You know,
46:16
I mean I I I think our conversation was just fantastic,
46:19
but you know, it's it's been educational for me.
46:21
I I see a different perspective,
46:23
you know, on the on the publishing journey.
46:25
And and I think one of the things that stood out to me most was,
46:28
you know, just that building that author authority,
46:30
you know, building that authority platform,
46:32
even for myself, you know, as a as a podcast host,
46:34
it's like I can get out there more.
46:36
So I was I was kind of
46:37
Niggling around, it's like, what what kinds of things,
46:39
what kind of topics can I talk about?
46:41
So thank you so much for being on the show.
46:42
I appreciate you.
46:44
No, I really appreciate that. I enjoy 3D like the composition with you.
46:47
It's, you know, I love the way you ask questions,
46:50
the way you dive deep into topics.
46:52
And actually, you're also helping me.
46:55
When I'm asking those questions,
46:56
I'm getting reorganized and reorganized.
46:58
Actually, every time I show up on a podcast,
47:01
I perfect my message even more and more.
47:03
And this is how we evolve even within our own knowledge.
47:07
So thanks for the opportunity.
47:08
Yes, sir.
47:10
Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Absolutely.
47:12
Absolutely. And folks, I want to thank you for watching or listening
47:15
to another episode of the Relentless Pursuit of Winning Podcast.
47:17
We'll catch you next time.