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S3 E1 | Is This Relationship Toxic? · Therapy and Theology

• Lysa: Hi. Welcome to another episode of Therapy & Theology. I'm Lysa TerKeurst here with Jim Cress, professional licensed counselor, and Dr. Joel Muddamalle, bringing all the theological wisdom — Joel: And humor. You want some theology humor? We got that for you later. Lysa: Let's not, OK! No, your theological humor is deep. Joel: Yes. Lysa: And sometimes I can find my way to laughing, so that's good. Jim: It's a rather circuitous path though, to get there. Lysa: Well, today we have a really interesting topic, Toxic People. So I'm going to throw out a couple of words, and let's just see if we can all think of situations where we have been in maybe a relationship, or maybe even we've demonstrated some of these traits or behaviors ourselves — entitled, arrogant, dramatic, manipulative, rigid, negative, controlling. As we listen to these words, I think we have to think of two types of really analyzing what we are looking at. I just described a bunch of traits that people would say, "That is a toxic person." But I want to give you a couple of phrases. One is spectrum of severity, and the other is spectrum of occurrence. So if you're a note-taking person, write those two phrases down. Spectrum of severity and spectrum of occurrence. What I mean by spectrum of severity, when I read words like that, that are obviously not healthy traits for a person to demonstrate at all, but also to bring into a relationship, there is a spectrum of severity to some of those words. Now, maybe some of these are the most severe version. But what if it's just more like a bad mood? That would be at one end of the spectrum. Selfishness may be in the middle. And then narcissistic may be at the end. And so, this spectrum of severity needs to be considered along with spectrum of occurrence. Is it the least severe? Did it happen once? Well, that's called a mistake. Does it happen several times? Maybe that's starting to be a little bit of a pattern. Or is it happening all the time? Is it occurring very, very often or every time that you interact with that person? And that may not just be once or a little pattern that's developing. This may be a full-blown trait. Even more than a habit, it's just who that person is. Joel: Yeah, it's evidence of their character. Lysa: Yes. So the reason I think it's important, because sometimes this word toxic is thrown around a lot these days. Like, "Oh, that was a toxic organization, that was a toxic person, that was a toxic relationship." But I do think it's important to not label somebody's selfishness, that occurred one time in an incident that really hurt your feelings ... Was that toxic, or was that a mistake? I think when we look at the spectrum of severity and the spectrum of occurrence, that will really help us. So maybe we can list out those two things and compare them together. And that will help us realize, did this person make a mistake, is this a pattern, or is this really who this person is because it's what they demonstrate all the time? And what is the severity of it? Is it truly toxic, or is it just something negative they need to work on? And I think looking at the severity and looking at the occurrence will really help us determine that. So when I think of the term toxic, I think of physically toxic, which could be poisonous. But I also think of spiritually toxic, which — Joel: Sure. Lysa: Joel, what would you say? Spiritually toxic, what would be that? Maybe taking one of the major tenets of faith and twisting it so that it is not aligned with God's Word? Joel: Yeah. Or taking something that is minor and making it a major where it's causing dissension and confusion and division. I would say another one is taking the ... how do I say this? Taking the spiritual authority and power that certain people might have, ministry leaders, whatever it might be, and using it in a way that is not for the expansion of the Kingdom of God, but actually under-rooted, it's personal platform expansion. That's a toxic kind of spirituality that's camouflaged, honestly, as, "Hey, this is gospel, this is Kingdom." And yet it's actually not the gospel of Jesus. It might be your gospel. And it's not the Kingdom of God. It might be trying to build your own personal kingdom. Lysa: That's good. Another one, I think, that can lead to almost spiritual abuse is weaponizing scriptures. Either taking a scripture and making it more harsh than what it was ever intended or taking a scripture and using it to justify your own bad behavior. So misinterpreting it to the point where it really is harming another person. That's spiritual toxicity. Joel: And that is usually found in the intent to elevate one person and subjugate another person. And so that's like, "How do we know ...?" It's just like, "Oh, you just ... Honestly, it's a mistake," like what you're talking about. Well, look at the intent at how that scripture is used in application. And that application gives you a little bit of insight and indication of the heart. Lysa: And then I think, of course, there's emotional toxicity which can lead right into relational toxicity. And that's really where I want to focus today. Because I think we've all had situations where there are behaviors demonstrated inside the context of a relationship that feel unhealthy, maybe even to the point of being poisonous. And it's not just diminishing the quality of that relationship. It starts to make you feel unsafe, and it starts to make you question who you are. And when those kind of toxic behaviors happen, relationships can get very unhealthy very quickly, and they can also become unsustainable. You just cannot sustain that level of toxicity no more than you could sit in a poisonous room and continue breathing normally and expect life to continue. Eventually, the effects of that poison will take place. And that's true whether it's a gas, a physical gas, or whether it is a very unhealthy relationship with probably a very unhealthy person or two unhealthy people. Jim: And one dangerous situation ... Literally, when you talked about the gas, natural gas you may have in your house, they put an odor in that so you can smell it if something's going off. But CO, or carbon monoxide, colorless, odorless, tasteless gas — Joel: Silent killer. Jim: Those are the ones, that silent killer, that really concern me in a relationship where you think, “Man, I did not see this coming, or this person was manipulating or doing toxic things with me.” I didn't smell it, didn't see it, didn't hear it. And others may not have seen it either, but all of a sudden the effects overwhelm me. I went, "Whoa, this is scary." Lysa: Now, I want to read a scripture, just thinking of some of those toxic traits that I mentioned at the beginning of the show. It's Proverbs 6:16-19, and it talks about, “there are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him.” (NIV) The first is, “haughty eyes.” (Proverbs 6:17, NIV) And as we were unpacking this, Joel, one of the notes that I took is "haughty eyes are ... it's prideful." It's you thinking that you are better than others and other people are less than you. There's this arrogance to it. I don't know if you have anything else you want to say about haughty eyes, but as I look at that list, I can start to see a correlation here. So I mentioned arrogant people, and then haughty eyes, which leads right into the definition of arrogance. Joel: Yeah, I think there's a juxtaposition that's being made elsewhere throughout Proverbs and even in the Psalms. What are you supposed to do with your eyes? You're supposed to lift them into the heavens, to be reminded of the goodness and the greatness and the majesty of who God is. In contrast to this, haughty eyes, they're eyes that are committed not to lifting up to see God, but looking internally to see themselves as greater and bigger. So you're seeing this juxtaposition that takes place. It's about ambition that's not restrained. Lysa: And then, “a lying tongue.” (Proverbs 6:17, NIV) And of course that gets right into deceit, manipulation. And I think one of the scariest situations I've ever been in is where someone is blatantly lying. Their facts do not line up with the actual facts because the truth to them has become whatever protects them, whatever elevates them, whatever makes them feel significant, or whatever makes them feel protected. And so, when it says, "a lying tongue," that doesn't just mean that they lie, that they tell a bunch of lies. It can be the deception of omission. They will tell a partial truth, but just enough to give it a mask of truth. But when you really get down to it, what they're emitting is actually crucial to getting to the actual truth. So a lying tongue can mean more things than just, "Oh, they tell a few white lies." Right? Joel: Mm-hmm. Lysa: The next one is, “hands that shed innocent blood.” (Proverbs 6:17, NIV) Joel: This is a big one. Hands that shed innocent blood is, and we've talked about this quite often the last couple episodes, is that it's talking about injustice. It's talking about not just a mistake or not just an act that is done randomly. It's actually about an intentional act that puts the people that are in the margins, people that are the most vulnerable, the people that, I would argue, trust you, that are the most susceptible to this. They're innocent, and you're shedding blood. Now, here's another thing I think is important, is that Proverbs is written with principles in mind. The language is typically heavily symbolic. So it could be easy for us to look at this and say, "Oh, it's just talking about physical blood." And we're going to look at this later when it gets to the heart, and even what Jesus says, that actually, this is also not just about physical blood, but it's symbolism for how we treat the vulnerable. And so, the shedding of innocent blood is one of the biggest travesties that take place throughout the Minor Prophets. Lysa: I wrote in our notes here, "Leveraging your power to do harm to others." And it can almost become a systemic issue, right? Joel: That's absolutely right. Lysa: Because it can be modeled and passed down, and it becomes something that is absolutely toxic. But when experienced over a long period of time, that version of toxic can start to feel normalized. And when that starts to feel normalized, then it is going to be perpetuated, it is going to be modeled and then replicated, and it's just not going to stop. And I think when that level of toxicity starts to become normalized, that's some of the most dangerous realities to be in, inside of a relationship, because it's dysfunction. Joel: That's right. Lysa: It takes what should have been a proper function and makes it dysfunction. It's not operating properly, and it's not being treated with the care that it deserves to be treated. And like you said, doing harm to other people who are innocent. "A heart that devises wicked schemes ..." (Proverbs 16:18, NIV) Jim, I'd love for you to comment on this because whenever I see the word schemes, I think of, honestly, the evil one. Because right when we learn about him, in Genesis even, it talks about "he was more crafty than any of the other creatures." (Genesis 3:1) And that word crafty often brings this connotation like he was sneaky, he was manipulative, maybe. He definitely had a scheme. He had an agenda that was for himself, and it didn't really matter how much it hurt the other person. They were just going to be collateral in his game. And so I think this word scheme, like a heart that devises wicked schemes. So what do you think about when you hear that, Jim? Jim: Well, and tag teaming with what you just said, that I think a person ... This is dangerous, isn't it? Isn't it quite sobering that you would be in co-operation, operating with, co-operation with Satan and all of his forces referenced in the Bible, including in Ephesians 6. You're literally in co-operation. And you are walking and living in the kind of mentality, if you will, of what the father of lies, not the father of lights. So in that moment, the scheming and the planning that goes ... And I go back, I've used this whole passage for years to say, "Hey, there are six things, ye, in the Old King James, ye seven are an abomination. And so we better take this passage really seriously." So I'm cooperating with Satan and all his forces to devise, scheme, plan. There's no whoops here. No, "Oh, I accidentally stumbled, and I slipped and all that." There was a scheming. And I see that a lot. Big word here is perpetration. I'm perpetrating. That I know what I'm doing to some level and I will harm you if you get in my way as a human. So the scheming, it's proactive, it's planned, they know to a degree what they're doing, and they're in co-operation with Satan and his forces. That should sober any person. Joel: You're making a massive connection, which we're going to get to hear pretty soon. But what this is also talking about is association. Jim: Yeah. Joel: Who are you associated with? Later in the New Testament, Jesus talks about "You're like your father, who is the devil, who was a liar from the beginning." (John 8:44) And so here, it's actually talking about a progression of characteristics and traits, left unattended, that will associate you not with the household of God but with the household of the enemy. Lysa: I think about passages that talk about "We need to put off these evil traits, and we need to put on godly traits." And there's many places that we could turn to in scripture. But I think about in Ephesians Chapter 4, it says, "Get rid of anger, brawling, slander …" all of those things that are in co-operation with the enemy's desires and plans and schemes. And it says, "Put on ..." If we're going to get rid of all of that, then Colossians 3 says that we need to clothe ourselves with compassion and kindness and humility. So I think sometimes it can be hard. Is this person pointing their life in the direction that is putting on the new self? Is there compassion when appropriate? It doesn't mean they do it perfectly. But is their natural pattern of life, is it compassion? Is it kindness? Is it humility? Or is it in the opposite direction? More in the direction of foolish choices, like anger, brawling, slander, sexual immorality, idolatry, greed. And so I think we have to use wisdom. Because whatever direction our life is pointing, to some extent, we're establishing, we're making choices. And I almost think it's like healthy choices go this way; scheming is going to include all of this. In their heart, they're devising wicked schemes. And do they have a pattern that is pointing their life in the direction of cooperation with the old self, the flesh or even the enemy? Jim: I think there is, really following what you've said, I've said this to many people I've worked with, but I really believe there is a satanic and trauma and flesh-designed GPS. Because we all do it. Now we just pop open whichever phone you have and say, "Hey, I want to go here." And that GPS pretty quickly will say, "This is where you go," and you might scroll up and do, here's the actual step-by-step direction. Most of us don't. We just listen. It says, "Go here." When we said before, the brain is wired for confidence and knowing. I'm telling my brain, "I will scheme, I will go here in cooperation with Satan and his forces." But it's this unholy GPS. And the more that I do that, I'm mindful of Aristotle saying, "We are what we repeatedly do." That's been proven in brain research, that after a while, like Phantom of the Opera, that song that says, "Past the point of no return." And I see that. Or "conscience seared us with a hot iron." And I think it gets scarier and scarier the long the person's in there. Joel: That's right. Jim: It's like, "Boy, can they even turn it around?" Lysa: The next one is, “feet that are quick to rush into evil ..." (Proverbs 6:18, NIV) Now, as I've thought about this one, I'm like, "OK, I know that the Bible says that our feet are to be fitted with the peace of Christ." Joel: Talking about Ephesians 6. Lysa: Yes. And that's part of the armor of God. And feet that are fitted for carrying the gospel into the world. So — Joel: I'll read it for you. I'm reading from Ephesian. "And, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace." (Ephesians 6:15) Lysa: So this almost seems like the opposite. It's like we are lacing up, and our natural tendency, these people that are being described here, feet that are quick to rush into evil. So I had this thought the other day about this. Is it that when push comes to shove, where are you turning, where are you running, where are you escaping to? And is it healthy patterns that are going to point your direction in peace? Or are they unhealthy patterns that are pointing your life in the direction of destruction, in the direction of chaos, in the direction of harm, whether it's self-harm or harming others? And I think it's almost like when you get cornered, what's your reaction? Joel: That's right. Lysa: What are you going to do? Or when life gets hard, what are you going to do to cope with that? Jim: Well, you're causing me or prompting me to think of something here seriously. And my doctor here on the side here, seriously, let me know. I'm just impacted, live right now, with what you're saying. That when I'm going to go toward evil, even if I don't feel like it, I will run toward evil. But we get over to the Greek, in Peripateo, in Greek, as I walk in the spirit ... So if I'm walking with or toward God, I don't have to necessarily run toward God and toward all things holy and right? But when I go toward evil, I'm not walking, I literally will run, almost with a gravitational pull, pulling me that way. Is that theologically possibly accurate? Joel: Yeah. [inaudible 00:20:49]. And to — Jim: I just thought that as you were saying that, that that's a sobering thought. Joel: And to echo that thought, in the Old Testament, the Israelites are always called to turn away from the false gods, to turn away from evil, and to turn towards Yahweh. The Hebrew word there is [foreign language 00:21:06]. And [foreign language 00:21:06] can mean to turn or to return. And so you have that same idea. Because it's actually possible ... And this is a big issue in the Psalms of Ascent. It's actually possible for them to turn but never turn towards Yahweh. And so, the importance in the wordplay here is it's not just a simple turn, but it's a return to who you're always supposed to be with. Because what good is it to turn from one idol to another, from one addiction to another? Jim: People do it, right? Joel: People do it. Jim: But what good is it? Yeah. Lysa: And almost like, what is the gravitational pull of your soul? Joel: That's right. Lysa: Is the gravitational pull that, yeah, you can be enticed by evil, but it should be, as you get close to that sin or even as you dabble in that sin, there should be an immediate trigger in your mind. Your conscience should come alive and should say, "No, not this, not that. Don't do this." There should be that feeling of, “Whoa, this is wrong, and now I'm feeling the effects of it.” But I feel like if your gravitational pull is to go toward evil, then it feels like something is off in your conscience or something is off in your spirit that there's not this warning, at some point, "Stop running this way." Joel: That's right. Jim: Well I think of, and again, I know with the three of us, we could sit here, and we really could, we do it off set, and bounce things off each other and have 20 podcasts in one show. But I'm thinking of Galileo and Copernicus and the idea to think for a moment, and this is, again, a thought I'm getting from you right now, which is: How does this thing work in my life? Am I earth? That the sun, don't you know, is really rotating around me? Or is the sun, literally God, the center of this solar system, and I'm rotating around it? But a lot of manipulating, narcissistic, controlling and, to use our word, “toxic people,” will be convinced they are the center and the whole world rotates around them. And I'm thinking that's a major paradigm shift to look and say, "Who is at the center of your..." Not in some Bible school way, like "Mo, who's at the center of your life?" But no, really. And I watch people, and I'm thinking, if you just look at them, they'll tell you, "I am the center and everything rotates around me." Lysa: And in a situation where something happens, something hard happens, where are they quick to run to? I think that's a good thing to look at. And then, “a false witness who pours out lies.” (Proverbs 6:19, NIV) A false witness who pours out lies. Joel? Joel: Yeah, a … Lysa: Help us with this one. Joel: … A false witness is a person who's telling just straight-up lies. That's where [inaudible 00:23:56] And it's false. Honestly, the echo of this one is in the New Testament, are the false witnesses that the Pharisees and the Sadducees pay off in order to be witnesses against Jesus. And the crowd is the same crowd in the [inaudible 00:24:07] entry that's yelling and saying, "He's the Messiah. Hosanna! Praise the son of David, who's coming," is the same one that got paid off by the Pharisees and Sadducees to bear false witness against Pilate because that was the only chance that the Pharisees and Sadducees had, in corroboration with the evil powers that are at play, in order to send Jesus to the cross. And so, this is what you have. A false witness. Jim: They're right there. Toxic people, right out of the Word of God, toxic people will ultimately draw on insecure people. Because when they flip, the way you've described that from "Hosanna to crucify him.” Joel: Crucify him. Jim: That much of a flip. The Bible says, "The person who walks in their integrity walks securely." (Proverbs 10:9, NASB) But that's a great contrast that you made, and it's right out of the Word, that toxic people will be able to draw in insecure people who will be like ... They'll wave from this to that. Joel: That's right. Lysa: And that is a scary person to be in a relationship with. Because I've said so many times, if you're afraid that that person is going to walk away, they are eventually going to walk away. And so, I think we have to pay attention to that because if we are living in fear in a relationship, that's the opposite of what a relationship is supposed to provide for us. Joel: It says, "… breathe out lies ..." What does your say? Lysa: It says, “… a false witness who pours out lies ..." (NIV) Joel: In my translation here it says, "breathes out lies." Pours and breathes, think about that imagery here. Jim: [inaudible 00:25:30]. Joel: This isn't something that you're having like, "Oh gosh, am I going to do this? Am I not?" This is natural behavior. As natural as it is for me to breathe in air and breathe it out as natural, as it is to take water and pour it into another cup, that is the nature in which these people bear out false witness. Lysa: OK. And it says, "and a person who stirs up conflict in community." (Proverbs 6:19, NIV) When I count these, it says, "There's six things …” Joel: Six plus one. Lysa: “... the Lord hates, and then seven that are detestable to him." As I was looking at this, I'm like, "OK, a person who is so prideful, they've got haughty eyes, a lying tongue, they're caught up in deceit and manipulation; hands that shed innocent blood, they do harm to other people who are innocent; they're leveraging their power to do harm to others; a heart that devises wicked schemes, a heart that is in not in tune necessarily to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, but they're gravitational pull is towards something else; feet that are quick direction to evil; a false witness who pours out lies. When you have that kind of person, it's almost like those six things add up to number seven, “a person who stirs up conflict in the community.” Joel: A couple things on this, if y'all will just nerd out with me for a little bit — Jim: We'll do it. Joel: In the Hebrew structure, that six plus one, seven, it's also in Amos, but here it's really important. That six plus one, that's seven. Seven is the number of completion in Hebrew poetic language. So here you have six. But now, just watch. There's this thing called parallelism that's taking place. Watch this with me. It starts with what? The eyes. What comes in through the eyes works itself out. With what? The tongue and the hands. Lysa: Wow. Jim: That's powerful. Joel: Now we get to the heart laid. This is the wellspring of emotion and volition. So the Hebrews thought of both things as one. What is inside of the heart works itself out where? Through our feet and through our false witness. And what is the culmination of … Lysa: Where we go … Joel: ... all of this? Lysa: ... and what we do. Joel: Yes. And what is the culmination of all of this? Discord amongst the family of God. Now turn to Ephesians 6. Jim: That's where my mind just went. Joel: [inaudible 00:27:41] the powers and principalities. “Our battle isn't against flesh and blood, but against the powers and principalities.”(Ephesian 6:12) And what do the evil forces— Jim: Wow. Joel: What are they devising? Disunity, dysfunction, distress amongst the family of God. And I'm thinking about this out loud and in the same way that Jim is processing aloud, I am too. And I just wonder, wow, what if these are the characteristics that the enemy so deviously has put together to undermine the purpose of God? Jim: Well, how about this being ... And you'll help me here. I've not seen this 'til just now, the compare and contrast to Ephesians 6 and the armor. That here's the armor of Satan, and Ephesians 6 is the armor of God. Joel: That's right. Jim: Whose armor are you wearing? Joel: Whose armor? Lysa: Wow. Joel: Who are you associated with? Jim: Yeah, because Lysa started us off, to go back with the association, all like that, and the scheming, the cooperation. But this is like the armor of Satan versus the armor of God. Joel: It truly is. Jim: It gets more powerful. Lysa: And Jim, I want you to go through some traits that I know you have developed an acronym of toxic, OK? Jim: I did. Lysa: And I really think it's really helpful. And then I want to also ask you, what are we supposed to do if we recognize either toxic behaviors in a relationship that we're in, or toxic behaviors in a person that we do life with? And sometimes it's just really complicated when we recognize this, but we don't know what to do about it. Before you get into your acronym though, I want to read this other verse. Second Timothy 3:1-9. It says this, "But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God—having a form of godliness, but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people. They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth." (NIV) And then it goes on to even talk about they can be teachers who actually oppose the truth. And it says, "These are men of depraved minds ..."(NIV) And I think it's shocking to read in the Bible, "Have nothing to do with these people." (NIV) Now again, this is not permission to peace out or to tap out on relationships where you have certain responsibilities. But I do think the awareness of these traits can give you some confidence to know, this is not sustainable, and what do I need to do about it? So Jim, share with us the acronym for the word toxic. Jim: By the way, on that, we've done programs before about boundaries. Is it biblical to have boundaries? And you just heard literally an imperative. Probably Joel will tell us in Greek. But as a command, "Have nothing to do with them," that sounds like a boundary, isn't it? Right? OK. So I came up with this for toxic, if you're thinking about a toxic person in your life. And shall we say that, what if you've ever been? I have. Have you ever been toxic yourself to another person? Let's look at the mirror a little bit too. OK. A little bit maybe. T under T-O-X-I-C. I've said, "Look for people in your life who are threatening to you. They threaten, and you feel threatened by them. And they might threaten, “I'll pull money back, or if you do this, I'll do that” or whatever. Someone who's threatening. O, look for people who are obnoxious. And I'm not talking about just some kind of character flaw where they can just be a jerk sometimes. But there's an obnoxious reality to this person. Maybe others see it too. X, and you go, "Where'd this word come from?" It's on social media. It's a lot in our world these days. Xenophobic. That word starts with X. All that means is, and I use it here in the acrostic, because it's the fear or hatred of foreigners. In other words, let's extrapolate that to, "If you're not like me or letting me do what I want to do, then you're foreign to me." I'm male, you're female, vice versa. I'm this personality type, you're that. Whatever. But xenophobia, the fear and hatred of foreigners, you'll sense that a person, just because you're being you, they fear you or they hate you or try to control you. Lysa: It's almost like the fear or the hatred of someone who is different than them? Jim: Very ... Well, I see that, and we all see that a lot, just because, with racism and other things, say, "If I boil it down, you're just other than me." And people are down [inaudible 00:32:48] they're not up on; they don't even know you, they don't know your story. But how do I barely … you walk in the room, and I feel like I hate you or I don't like you, and I don't know anything about you? A toxic person will not want you to be who you really are in Christ, to be healthy. They won't want that because we've said, "Healthy is only going to usually bond with healthy. Unhealthy bond with unhealthy." If that person is unhealthy, the only person they can really bond with is a level of someone being unhealthy, like no boundaries and you selling your soul to this person. T-O-X-I. I is they're insulting. They're condescending. They take shots at you. They weaponize anything toward you. They might do one of the four horsemen we've talked about. They're critical, they're defensive. Maybe they're contemptuous toward you, or they just stonewall you. We've talked about that on other programs. Insulting. And C is controlling. Because they will want to control. And sometimes there are great payoffs with a toxic person. Every now and then, they will pay off and give you goodies. Maybe it's money or feel like they affirm you. And maybe, shall I say it as a therapist, help to salve your mommy and daddy wounds or childhood abuse wounds or something? They can be seductive and nice as long as their payoff is you letting them run their whole system over you. So the idea is someone when you say, "Yeah, I feel controlled by that person," threatening, obnoxious, xenophobic, fear or hatred or foreigners, insulting, or controlling. Lysa: As I listen to that, again, like we talked about the beginning of the show, I think about there is the level of severity, the spectrum of severity … Jim: Yeah, I like that. Lysa: ... and the spectrum of occurrence. And so, just because somebody has demonstrated some version of one of these words on a spectrum doesn't necessarily mean that they're a toxic person. It could mean that they're a selfish person. It could mean that they're using boundaries, but using boundaries inappropriately. And we've talked on previous shows, we don't put boundaries on other people as a punishment or a manipulation tactic or a way to control them. We put boundaries up really as safeguards for ourself so that the best of who we are can operate front and center and in that relationship. But as I listen to some of these qualities, I think, “OK, how do I know at the beginning of a relationship?” Because sometimes controlling at the beginning of a relationship doesn't necessarily feel like controlling. Joel: That's right. Lysa: It could feel quite seductive. It could feel like this person is caring for me. Jim: They're protecting me. [inaudible 00:35:30]. Lysa: They're protecting me or whatever. So I wonder, are there some signs that we can look for, early on in a relationship, where that person ... You can see past is this this wonderful act of protection, or is it really manipulation and control? Jim: We've talked about, on this program, that trust is rebuilt over the two life. The trust has been broken, it's rebuilt over time. Time just moves on. You don't have to worry about time. That clock hand's moving. Time plus provable, reliable experience. That's about rebuilding trust. Let's get "re" off and just say, "Building trust." And the foundation of any relationship out there, any relationship, if you're there, is to not make a quick judgment right away from the hip, go "Boom, I think this is who this person is." If you will allow, that's why relationships should not jump quickly, if it's a new relationship, to sexuality, it hijacks and hotwires this connection, but to take some time and let someone over time ... If it's a brand new relationship with all the neurochemicals of the body, which are big, especially oxytocin, dopamine, bonding chemicals, it takes about 90 days for that woo-woo factor to die down in a new relationship. Just let time go on. Have, as I've said before, a personal board of directors. Say, "Well, what's it like with him or with her?" Friendship, dating, courting, whatever. And then say, "Well, they did this, but maybe he was just having a bad night." If you'll let time go on and examine it over time, here are a few signs you might look for. We did, I'll redo them quickly, the four horsemen. Look for someone, critical, defensive, contempt; they're shaming you or they shame other people. Listen for the xenophobia thing; they're just cutting other people down. You hear racist talk, whatever it might be. Gossiping. You feel like they're trying to manipulate your mind, or you feel manipulated by them. There is, watch this one, careful: denial. We often use the term gaslighting. They deny. See this one a lot. They deny what they said or did. "I never said that." You know that they did say that. Might even deny, in a text, "I didn't say that," or "That's not what I meant." So that's a mind molestation of just what's going on here, right? Sarcasm. The Greek word [foreign language 00:37:47], we've talked about it. It's flesh. Sarcasm is a tearing of the flesh. You go, "Boy, they use a lot of sarcasm." Don't judge too quickly. Just make some mental notes over a period of maybe 90 days. They weaponize anything, something that's used, and they turn it to do harm. They weaponize something. Taking always a one-up position. You sense it in seesaw effect, right? They're kind of one up, puts you in a one down. Blaming you or someone else a lot. That can be this victim mentality. Ignoring, that's a big one, or crossing. Even just ignoring your clearly-stated boundaries. You've said, "You know what? I don't go this far in a relationship too soon," or "If you're going to talk like that, I'm not going to be around it," and they run right over it. Your boundaries, and you go, "They're just ignoring that." Big one: using the Bible to manipulate you into believing that you are wrong, we talked about that here already, or that they are right. Listen for the quoting of Bible verses, which is basically weaponizing the Word of God. And some other warning signs you're in a toxic relationship is you just trust yourself for a moment, you know you don't feel safe. You just say, "I don't have to acknowledge it to friends or family," but I go, "I don't feel safe with this person." OK. Watch for the cycle. I see this a lot. They cycle. They're nice, and then they're controlling, manipulative. And in domestic violence, that's a cycle. They'll go from being nice, seductive, they abuse, and then right back around, OK. Watch for the cycle. People in your life say, "This person seems, listening to you, that they're unhealthy." You feel confused or doubtful. Remember in Nehemiah, the Sanballat and Tobiah went to cause confusion. You feel like, I feel confused with this person. And then the last one is just, I say, "Watch for the word but," which is, "Yeah, I hear you and everything, Lysa. But ...” That means they've just negated what they've had to say. You listen for that word. They will be doing that. You'll think, oh. And that's what they're doing is saying, "You're right and everything, but ..." So you think, “Oh, you said I was right, but …" And they switch it on you. Now they're going to run their manipulation. Lysa: A couple others that I've noticed in situations where there's toxicity is, do you ever feel like you have to diminish who you are … Jim: That's huge. Lysa: ... in order to keep them in an elevated or admired place? Another one is when you're talking to wise people, do you hide some of the facts? Jim: That's big. Lysa: Are you trying to cover up the parts of them that aren't so great or justifying it, using, "Yeah, but they're really awesome here"? And are you having to talk yourself into this? Jim: A little marketing campaign for the … Lysa: Yeah, exactly. Jim: ... toxic person. Lysa: And another one is, do you find yourself ever saying, "Well, I'd rather have someone than no one." And so, it's like, "I'd rather dance with the devil I know than dance with a devil I don't know. I'd rather have this person even though they treat me in ways that they shouldn't treat me. But I'd rather have someone than no one." And so you trade the potential for a healthy relationship just for the companion of an unhealthy or potentially toxic person, which is going to eventually become a toxic relationship. Jim: And that's called bargains. People have written on this, bargaining with chaos. Hee Haw was an old TV show. Some of you out there remember. And they said that song every week. "If it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all." And I use that with people and say, "You know what? I got to tell you, I know this isn't healthy, but I'd rather be in a bad relationship or a toxic relationship than no relationship at all." And you bartered, or you've actually contracted here with chaos and said, "I'll settle for that because I will not existentially, really, here, right now, I will not be alone. I will not do it." Lysa: I would love to leave everyone, in this conversation of now that we know what we're looking for, what do we do about it? So Joel, biblically speaking, what do we do if we find ourselves in a toxic relationship? And then Jim, from a therapeutic standpoint, what do we do? How do we communicate this? Because we may be recognizing these things, but if we're already in relationship, now what? And I think that's the tough place that people find themselves in. So I'll go first, and then I'll wrap it up by going to you guys. I think a crucial thing that you have to do right away is, when you are seeing red flags, don't tilt your head and think to yourself, maybe it's not so red. I found sometimes, in my relationships, a flag will literally have to be burning to the ground before I finally go, "Wow — Jim: "Hello." Lysa: That actually was a pretty big red flag. And so, don't ignore those warning signs, don't ignore the red flags. Jim, you've taught me before, if you smell smoke, there is a fire. So don't gaslight yourself and say, "I know what I'm seeing, but I'm going to deny what I'm seeing just because I'm too afraid of making a change in a relationship. The other thing is maybe you don't need to make an extreme change. Maybe there are steps of change that you can take. One thing would be, draw healthy boundaries. And I've just written a book called Good Boundaries and Goodbyes and the book comes out in November. And I really think this is going to be one of those progressions where somebody recognizes this relationship is unhealthy. Then they may recognize, actually I'm in relationship with a toxic person. Then they may recognize, I think I've hit a spot where this relationship is no longer sustainable. Then they start to realize, if I stay in this relationship, either that person has to get healthy, which they may not be willing or capable of doing, or I'm going to have to sink to their level of unhealth because it's not sustainable to stay where it's at. And so, just like there's a progression of severity in recognizing where the relationship is at, there's also steps that you can take. Should you be with them or should you totally walk away from them? Well, I think you can walk through these steps of boundaries and define what is acceptable, what is not acceptable in that relationship. And if they will respect your boundaries, there's hope for that relationship, there's hope for that person. If they absolutely will not respect the boundaries, then you're going to have harder decisions to make. Joel, what are your thoughts? Joel: I'm probably not going to say anything different than what you just outlined. I think that's really good. But what I will do is point you biblically to the one who models this perfectly for us. And it's found in Matthew 23: 25-35, and this is Jesus. The most toxic people in Jesus' life, that He addresses, are the Pharisees and Sadducees. This is what He says. I'm not going to read the whole thing, I'm going to highlight it. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites!" And then He calls them blind guides, which is an incredible irony because the Pharisees and Sadducees were touted as the ones to guide the people of Israel. He calls them lawless. Actually, check this out. Where does Paul get his language and his citation when he's talking to Timothy that Lysa mentioned earlier? He says, about the Pharisees and Sadducees, "Outwardly, you appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness." You see? And then He goes on. And so, here's what Jesus is saying. The toxic people appear to be one thing on the outside, but they're actually something completely different on the inside. And notice how Jesus handles this. One, He addresses it. He calls it out. But then notice the second thing that He does. He doesn't allow it to live in ambiguity. He says, "OK, let me identify exactly what are these toxic traits, so that I can be informed to know what are my next steps." And He goes ... And I want y'all to read this. Read 25 to 35. I chuckled a little bit while I was reading, I have witnesses here, because Jesus doesn't play around. He's serious. His language is a bit harsh sometimes. But the reason why He's doing this is because we have to be reminded, when we go back, and Jim goes through the list of the things that toxic people do against you, we have to be reminded of the truth of what is being done to you. And that's what Jesus does here when He calls them whitewashed tombs, when he says, "You serpents, you brood of vipers ..." And He goes on and on. Lysa: And tell us the passage one more time. Joel: Matthew 23, verses 25 through 35. Lysa: That's great. OK, Jim, why don't you wrap us up today? What do we do about this? We find ourselves with a toxic person or in a toxic relationship. Jim: Well, I'm going to borrow from Lysa. And in the spirit of the Lord the Ring's trilogy, where is he going? The Lysa TerKeurst trilogy, that it's just an absolutely amazing thing. First start with, "You know what? In this relationship, It's Not Supposed To Be This Way." And spend some time with that. Even that, to borrow that title, two books ago, indeed maybe three, this is not what a healthy relationship looks like. It's not supposed to be this way. Use it that way. Secondly, Forgive What You Can't Forget. But forgiveness doesn't mean reconciliation. Joel: That's right. Jim: So you can say, "I need to forgive." That means canceling the debt. What are the debts in this relationship? You see, you'll see clearly if you'll just believe yourself. And then to move to Good Boundaries and Goodbyes. Lysa: And goodbyes. Jim: And goodbyes, of course, what is that? The old-timers all knew what goodbye was: God be with ye. That's what a goodbye is. Literally, I can say, "May God be with you." That's my goodbye. Not "Goodbye you ..." It's not that. And so the idea, as I go forward, is, I want to look and say, "What do I see? This is not what it's supposed to look like. This isn't right." And to go and say, "I can do forgiveness. That's about me." Forgiveness sets the prisoner free, only to realize the prisoner was me. It's not for the other person primarily. For me to cancel the debt, identify the debts, and then to say, "What here?" To give myself permission to see it clearly. Get friends around you to say, "Here's what I see. What do you all think?" I would not ever want anyone in a toxic relationship to go it alone because they will mind manipulate you so much, doubt you. Or they will behave and honor your boundaries for one day, two weeks, six weeks, and then all of a sudden later, when they feel like you've let down your guard, boom. So allow time to go on, vet it with other people. And novel thought, maybe you sit down with a counselor who really understands. Some don't. But a counselor who understands narcissism, manipulation, people who are in so many levels toxic. And sit down and say, "Hey, let me tell you what's going on. Sir or ma'am, counselor, what do you see?" Get some verification with that. And then in the end, know that to have boundaries, a manipulating, controlling, toxic person has never met a boundary they like or one that they won't try to get across. Don't be surprised. I said the other day, on this show, the word of course, say, "They're testing my boundaries." Of course. That's what they get to do. Get out of their side of the street. They're supposed to test your boundaries and push. Don't be surprised when that happens. Lysa: Well, thank you both so much. And just to wrap up today, I want to reiterate something that you also taught me, Jim, is when we look in someone's growing up years, was there abuse, was there abandonment? And what was the other one? Addiction? Jim: We'll do four: abuse issues, abandonment issues, addiction issues and attachment issues. They can be avoided or fearful avoidant, or they can have an insecure or anxious attachment. All of us have some attachment issues. What were theirs? And what is mine if I'm in relationship with that person? Lysa: That's right. And so, it's not that we're eager to assign anything. It's not like, if those four things are present in your childhood, you're automatically a toxic person. It's just be aware. Be aware of what you see, be aware of the history, and be aware of how it's affecting you. I hope that today's show has really helped. God bless you.