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Living in the Closet · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:01
  Speaker A: Welcome to Gaming Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gaming's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I'm your host, Matt Lansdal, and joining me today is Michael Diorio and Reno Johnson. Welcome, guys. Today we're talking about living in the closet. And we're going to be exploring questions like, what was it like for you to live in the closet? What did it take for you to come out of the closet? And what advice do you have for someone who's living in the closet and is scared to come out? So what we want you to get out of today's episode is if you are a listener of ours, we know you're out there, that you might still be in the closet. You're kind of curious about what we're about, so maybe you listen to us, but you're not out yet. So we want you to basically get a better understanding of why you might be living in the closet. What is it? What's holding you back from coming out? And we want to inspire you to come out at your own pace and to come and join us in our lovely community. We have open arms waiting for you. If you're new here, please subscribe to the channel on YouTube. If you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, please subscribe and leave us a review which helps us get into the ears of the people who need us. So the theme of the month in the Gaiman's Brotherhood is Coming out Today is all about perhaps that step right before you come out, when you're still in the closet and you're like, okay, you know, maybe I want to start coming out. Maybe you want to start opening yourself up to this possibility. It's important to note that the coming out process is a process. It's not an event. I still come out if I, you know, get a new client or a new this or a new that or meet a new friend. It's like, you know, we're always coming out to a certain degree, but it does get easier as we go. So if you are somebody who's still in the closet, I would just want to say. And I want to just offer so much compassion, empathy, because I know what that's like. I knew I was gay at 5 years old and I was in the closet until I was 18. So I lived the hyper vigilance. I lived the secret. I lived the aloneness, the scaredness, the depress, like, depression, like, all of it. It was there for me as well. And I've had my journey of breaking free of that, and I want today's episode to inspire you to hopefully do the same. And we all have our reasons for staying in the closet. Some of them. Well, I'm gonna guess most of them are fear. Fear related. What if I get rejected? What if people don't like me? What if people think I'm disgusting? What if I lose my job? What if my family disowns me? There's. There's so many reasons why we would want to stay in the closet. I just want to say authenticity really is the way, and that's what I want. I want today's episode to be. Is that the three of us are living examples of what, how life can change once we start to become more authentic and connect to ourselves and share ourselves in real and raw ways, just like we do on the podcast. So, yeah, I want to hear from you guys. What was it like for you to live in the closet? Let's go back down memory lane, and we'll start with Reno today.
• 3:07
  Speaker B: I would say, for me, what stands out is, and I've shared this in previous episodes, there was this sense that I was kind of living a double life because it almost felt impossible to not be authentic, so to speak. So those parts that I was repressing would find their way out and through and in different moments and in different situations. But on the other side of things, I was always kind of paying attention to what would create safety, what would create belonging, and what would earn me love or likability and responding or reacting accordingly. And so it was this sort of dual experience. And I think that were it not for my grandmother, for example, I think it would have been significantly more challenging. I mean, you know, my mom said to me she knew when I was about three years old that I. That I was gay. Like, she said she knew early on. And knowing her with that in the background, I think she. What I see in hindsight is that there was this unspoken supportiveness of just my authenticity. And my grandma's space, as I mentioned in previous episodes, was also one where I was free to be myself, to play with dolls and watch the television and film that I was interested in and just kind of be my queer self. And I'm really grateful for that, because what I also started to notice was that throughout my journey, there were almost these little, like, moments of grace or, like, people in my life who I'll call, like, fairy godmothers or fairy gay mothers. You know, like these. These people peppered throughout my journey here and there who made it easier for me to be in my skin, to be in this world, to be in my queerness in these subtle ways and for it to be okay. And they were like signs in a way, like winks from or nods from the universe, from life, saying, it's okay or this is okay, or you can reveal a little bit more of yourself here. A little bit more of you is okay. A little bit more of you is okay. Now, the other piece that I think is important to mention is that it was very confusing. Like, it was very confusing at times. You know, I knew I was different. I didn't understand what that meant for a long time. I just knew I was. Wasn't like other boys, you know, that my voice was different, that my mannerisms were different. And I mean, if I go back in time and I'm sort of looking at that little boy, right? It's like sensitive and sensual and very aware and very expressive and probably soft spoken, but also like, there was a power behind that voice. You know, I would say, like, he was very much like a star, you know, very comfortable being seen and in the spotlight. So, I mean, all of that made him. Made me this easy target in a way. And, you know, I spent a lot of time going back and forth between what was natural and authentic, wanting to come through and then repressing that out of fear that I would be bullied or beat up or picked on or alienated or. Or cast out or whatever it was.
• 6:43
  Speaker A: I'm curious, what would you say brought up more shame for you? Was it the I sleep with men or was it the I am more feminine than other men?
• 6:53
  Speaker B: Honestly, I love that you asked that question. It's a really good question. No one's ever asked that before. I think it was the feminine piece. That's so interesting. Gosh, how sad. It was the feminine piece more than the I'm attracted to men piece. I don't know that I felt a lot of shame around that. Yeah, it would have been the femininity piece. And just feeling like that was wrong in some way. Boys aren't supposed to be like girls, you know, get out of here.
• 7:25
  Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's so multifaceted, this conversation. So I'm curious, you know, your experience, Michael, what was it like for you to live in the closet?
• 7:35
  Speaker C: I love the question and thank you guys both for sharing. First, so the short answer is what a mess it was in there. I think it's also important that I set the scene as well for the age I was and the age that I kind of went into for this question. So I started having same sex attraction around puberty, around that age. So I think it was like 11, 12. And the first time I actually came out and said the words out loud to another person was 19. So that was basically my entire teenage self was in the closet. Okay, so that is kind of where I'm coming at it from. And for anyone out there who can resonate with that, that were in the closet during their teenage years, I was thinking about this and I want to give my teenager self a big old hug and a pat on the back for getting me and you, if listener, viewer, if you're in the same position, out of that very sloppily, very messily, with zero support, None. Zero, none whatsoever. And zero role models. If you're anywhere around my age or loved, you know where I did. And zero understanding, like no education. I went to a Catholic school and they surely at that time did not teach us about same sex attraction at that age. I mean, and I don't even know if they do it now. Anyway, so I just want to give a big kudos because as I was thinking about this question, I love that this episode really took me way down memory lane. I just want to give that kid, teenager like a bit of love. And so here's what I did as I was thinking about this is I went to my journals. And luckily when I started journaling, it was around that time and I did it all online on my computer. I had a computer, I had my own computer. It was so cool. And I would just write because I was bored. I was a bored little, you know, 13 year old. And I would just write like shit that went on in my day. So I was like, oh my gosh, I have those somewhere. So I went through today, this morning and like read some of it. And guys, I am, Whoa, what a trip. If anyone out there has old journals that they have not looked at in like 30 years ago, it is a trip to like read that stuff. So I was a teenager, I was laughing because it was the most irrelevant, ridiculous things I was saying. I cried and I rolled my eyes a lot because as a teenager I was saying all kinds of crazy things. And so here's what I took from that in terms of the coming out piece. So I read the one that was between grade 8 and grade 9. So I was 13 years old. This is. Or where I was. It was between grade school and high schools the summer before high school. And most of the time I wasn't really talking about this. Like, I was talking about other things. I weren't really relevant. Family, friends, what was going on. Just completely ridiculous things. But I did notice I acknowledged crushes on boys. And I would name them, and I might say so and so, so cute as a crush, I was equally afraid to see them. So if I knew, like, this one family friend that we had, he was a bit older than me and I was like, super into him. He was maybe 15, I was 13. I was really excited to see him, but also terrified of him. And the other thing I noticed is that I also had crushes on girls. So I talked about the girls that I had crushes on. Now, here's the thing. I was never afraid of them. In fact, they were my favorite people. They were my best friends. They were the people that I had the most joy with. And I had so much great memories with them. But in my mind, I'm like, oh, I have a crush on this girl using the word crush. And I also was, like, very keen. I didn't use the word crush, but I was very keen on these boys and was excited to see them. And I was excited to know what was going to happen next. I never used the word gay in the journal. I don't even know if I knew. I mean, I probably knew what it was. I don't know if I identified that that was me and I was that at that time. But I did talk about being afraid of dying of aids. And I can tell you I was not at all sexually active. I didn't even so much as touch as a boy. But it says a lot. And here's the other thing is, I didn't call it AIDS in my journal. I had code words for a lot of things. I had a code word for aids. I was really afraid of dying. I also had a code word for penis and a code word for masturbation. And I had code words for the guys that I was into. Maybe I was afraid of my journal being read one day. I'm not sure. But I know what those code words are. So I was like, I couldn't even say it in my own journal. Right? That says a lot. And I remember this. I do remember being deathly afraid of contracting aids. But clearly, again, no education. I had no education. That you can't get it just from having an attraction to men, right? So what does this tell me? This tells me that that part of my life was filled with a lot of fear, a lot of shame. And I was very alone in that. And I. The only Thing I had was really my journal again. It's not like I talked about it all the time. It just. I would scroll and like find little bits and pieces there. And this is guys at the tender age of 13 years old. And that is a lot to deal with for a 13 year old boy with no support. Now that was then. So that's the journal piece then. As I got older. I don't have journals for that, for the older piece. But as I got older and I began to understand what gay was and having a vocabulary for it and realizing that I was gay and all these things and like through high school more so I knew that I was gay and I knew that I had to hide it and so I hid it by having girlfriends. And again, these best friends I had, I could kind of. It'd be easy for me to, for them to be on my beard like, okay, this can be my girlfriend. But it puts a lot of people off the scent. It's just like, get them off the scent. I had this girlfriend, oh, Michael's fine, he's got a girlfriend. What a, what a lazy man that is. And then the hypervilligilance that goes with it. So I remember avoiding any conversation with my family that remotely talked about girls or sex. I would be like, oh, gotta go out and anything, even with my friends, right? Like if my guy friends were starting to talk about like, oh, we're going to this party, we're gonna do these girls, like I would be, I would get so tense and so nervous and so stressed out. And it led to me eventually avoiding a lot of people and avoiding a lot of things and just really closing in. Because it wasn't safe out there, out there in the world. It was only safe where people couldn't find me. Because if they found me, the fear was they're going to find out or I will be revealed. And so that time of my life, I feel very sad because on one hand I was trying to, like, I spent so much energy and I mean, I know you guys can relate to this. You spend so much energy protecting the secret and trying to live this line. Like you just lose so much of your teenage years that I wish I could have back and just had some, had some fun, let loose and just be, not always be on, on high alert. So that was my experience of, of living in the closet. And here's the other funny thing, actually, now that I'm saying this, I was hiding, but at the same time I was trying to give hints so that I wouldn't be that much of a surprise. So it makes no sense to me now, but I have so much love for that teenage version of me who didn't know what he was doing. But I. Hey, look, here we are. Not just me, but everyone out there. We made it. So kudos to the teenager within us.
• 14:03
  Speaker B: You said something, too, that stands out to me, and I think it's that thing. There's a universality about this, I think. Because, Matt, you alluded to this at the. The beginning of this conversation. We're all always coming out. And so it's that sort of groundhog thing, right? Where you, like, you sort of poke your head out and you're like, is it okay? And then, you know, you sort of, like, let a little more and a little more and a little more and a little more yourself out. Right. And you kind of test to see is okay for me to fully be me. And I think, like, everyone can relate to that experience.
• 14:36
  Speaker C: What I didn't have, though, is what Reno. What Reno you were talking about is that sense of, like, that my masculinity, femininity was, like, never. For whatever reason, never. It never just never dawned on me. Like, it was always interesting. Like, I knew that part. So, I mean, everyone's journey is different. Yeah.
• 14:51
  Speaker A: So the same question that I asked Reno, you would answer it the other way. So it was the fact that you crushed on boys and were connected to boys. Not so much about the femininity stuff. Masculine. Yeah.
• 15:00
  Speaker C: It was definitely the fact that I was into dick and I wanted to play with these boys and was very much wanting it and terrified of it at the same time.
• 15:09
  Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. What was the code name for penis in your journal?
• 15:13
  Speaker C: Oh, my God. I can't even tell you guys. It was irk.
• 15:16
  Speaker A: Urk.
• 15:17
  Speaker C: Like Dirk without the D. Oh, my.
• 15:19
  Speaker A: God, I like it.
• 15:21
  Speaker B: Okay, so I have a question for you guys. Do you miss the rush? Like, I find myself sometimes missing that rush, because here's what I'll say. Yeah, it was like a shit show. Living a double life and, like, you know, sneaking kisses and cuddles and romps in the shadows during those years. But also, like, the rush of just doing something that's kind of like, oh, I shouldn't be doing this, and I'm, like, meeting up with people behind the scenes and stuff. Did you get that? And do you miss it, like, at all?
• 15:50
  Speaker C: I don't know.
• 15:51
  Speaker A: I don't think I do. No.
• 15:53
  Speaker C: I think that that is a huge a reason why I still like those kinds of things. I think that that that desire, that attraction was born in my. In the closet. And to this day, I still am so turned on. If I hook up with a straight guy or someone who, like, it's still such a turn on to me. And, yeah, like, you know, cruising and doing it in the dark and all these things like that that I do get a rush still. And so I think it was born out of that and it just hasn't really gone away.
• 16:20
  Speaker A: Which is interesting because I think, like, if you look at shame and the way shame shows up, if we have sexual shame and then we. We do these things, it can actually become a way to cope with. With such intense, toxic shame is to be turned it into an arousal.
• 16:33
  Speaker C: Right.
• 16:33
  Speaker A: It's actually like a trauma response. And I see that probably with a lot of guys that are into anonymous sex and cruising and there's this real. It's rooted in unresolved shame. Not for everybody. And I'm not gonna, like, you know, pathologize people, but it definitely can be rooted in that, for sure. It's a way that we cope. Human beings are miraculous creatures. We're so adaptive, and we can take something like that and we can turn it into an arousal as a way to cope with it so we don't have to feel so entrenched in the shame around it.
• 17:03
  Speaker B: That makes sense. Yeah.
• 17:05
  Speaker A: It's fascinating.
• 17:06
  Speaker B: What about you, Matt? What was it like for you to live in the.
• 17:10
  Speaker C: And what was the age. I want to know the age that you.
• 17:11
  Speaker B: Yeah, as well.
• 17:12
  Speaker A: The age that I came out.
• 17:14
  Speaker C: Well, the age that you are, I guess the age that you're gonna talk about being in the closet. Are you going back to childhood or. Or what age?
• 17:20
  Speaker A: So, yeah, I realized I was gay when I was about 5. And, like, I didn't really understand it as that, but I knew and I was. I was seeking out attraction and, you know, I was playing house and rubbing dicks and all the things. Right. So I was really. I was super sexual as a kid. There's not really an age that stands out for me. I remember just being extremely hypervigilant and, like, this sense of, like, I'm going to be found out. I'm going to be, you know, like, looking at porn on the family computer, the Sears catalog, going to the men's section or the men's, you know, underwear, like, jerking off, like, all those things. Like, it was just this real. And maybe there was an element of excitement there because it was so tied into sex and ejaculation and all these Things that I was discovering about my body, but there was also just an immense amount of shame and fear. Like, I just. And I remember being young and I honestly think, like, for me, this process was a massive trauma for me. And I'm like, I'm coming to terms with it still. Like, there's still layers coming out. And I'm actually, you know, doing EMDR right now with a therapist and I'm. I'm meeting young gay parts at different developmental stages and so much trauma, so much trauma. It's unbelievable. And I think all the things that I built around the traumatic parts to cope, I'm undoing them right now. I'm disarming all these protector parts and I'm, I'm meeting just so much tenderness and, and fear and shame and vulnerability. And so like you, Michael, I became very, very controlling. And I would always micromanage conversation and I wouldn't let the conversation steer into the directions of talking about sex or attraction or girls or these sorts of things. And if it did, I would always bolt. And I remember blushing a lot when I was younger because it was just all the shame rooted in my body that was trying to come out right truly. Like my body was trying to have a coming out process, but my mind wouldn't allow it. So I was, I was very split as a human being at that in those ages. And I'm just, even in this moment meeting so much tenderness because I'm like, damn, like, this is hard, like what we have to endure. And the way to cope for me was like dissociation, like, and I think I've been dissociating since I was a young kid to just to cope with, with that and you know, throw in being sensitive and being a little empath and like, you know, just all this stuff, like, it's just, it's so compounded and so, yeah, hyper vigilance. If I answer directly, what was it like to live in the closet? Like, I was hyper vigilant. I was, I couldn't settle. My nervous system never could land. And I was always looking for the next thing to be careful to don't say this, don't say that. So like I was self monitoring all the time. Don't walk gay, don't talk gay, make sure your voice is deep. All these things. Like, so masculinity was this real sense of armor that I use to protect myself. And that's a protector part, actually. And I noticed that in myself, like, still, still notice that in myself. This has been something I've been reconciling because a lot of the conditioning I. I took on growing up in very, very blue collar, masculine families, both of them with men that work with their hands, mechanics, these sorts of things. Hockey did. My dad was a hockey player. I grew up in the hockey culture. And I took on this notion of gay men are less than, and I didn't want to be less than. And I think that was a big piece for me is just having shame and inadequacy. So I wasn't man enough. That was the thing that I took on. And so femininity was this thing that. Which is, you know, classic projections, like, I'm gonna hate drag queens. I'm gonna hate this. This energy that I'm not allowed to be or participate in because I'll be seen as less than. So that was a big piece. I don't know if it was so much the act for me, now that I think about it around, like, actually engaging in sex. I think it was the elements of femininity that really came into it. And I honestly think maybe for a lot of people, that is what holds people back. And I see this in the work that I do with sensitive men, because in my other business, I work with highly sensitive people. And I have a good sized handful of clients that are straight men. And there is a lot of resistance or like, fear of being seen as gay for them being sensitive. And they're straight, they're not closeted or anything like that. So sensitivity and femininity are often attributed as weaknesses that gay men exhibit and present. Right. So again, we're up against so many of this, this social conditioning that we've. That we've inherited that is very toxic. You know, regardless of whether you're a gay man listening to this or even if you're a woman listening to this, we have a different bunch of different people that listen to our podcast, our mothers. I think we all live in the closet to some degree. Right. If you think about who you are when nobody's around, are you that same character when you're around your friends? Like, we all do things, like, things that we might think people would think are disgusting or, you know, weird or. Right. So we all have our little quirks, and I think it's like, it's liberating when we can, like, just let go and like, be present, be in the moment, act how we want to act. And so that's what I want to invite people into. If you're listening to this and you're in the closet, I want to invite you into Presence, like, just be present. And because I know that that's not. I didn't get that gift. And none of us did, really. When we're young, in which we're hyper vigilant and we're in fear, we're in past and future. How can I prevent people from seeing me as gay in the future? And how can I recover from some of the shit that I've had to deal with in the past around this stuff? So we never really got a chance to be present. And I think that's my work as an adult, is how can I find more presence and get out of my head, which is letting go of control. That's been a big piece for me.
• 23:14
  Speaker B: This is why I think our presence, the rainbow mafia, living out loud, is so important. You know, as I was listening to you speak, I was thinking about, like, the trans community, for example, and how much of the backlash that that community experiences. And I think there's something about having the. And I talk about this all the time, whether it's like in my personal life or on this podcast or, you know, wherever my Instagram. The audacity to be authentic, because that, in my experience is kind of what it takes in some ways in the beginning is courage and audacity to live out loud and to be authentic. You know, I see our ancestors, our gay ancestors, let's say, for example, I see them doing that, you know, and I see the trans community having the courage and the audacity to live out loud and literally risking their lives to be who they are. So, yeah, I think there's something there where when we have the audacity to live out loud, it can be triggering and alarming for those who are still grappling with whatever we're reflecting back to them by being who we are authentically, you know, so, like, it's not about you, right? That's for them to work out in themselves.
• 24:40
  Speaker A: You're making me think of when we first started the podcast and Michael and I. Michael talked about having a fear of visibility. I have the same fear of visibility, believe it or not. I do this work because my soul calls me forward to do it. So my soul leads the way, but my ego hates it. I hate being visible because I don't want to make mistakes in front of people. I don't want to experience shame, blah, blah, blah, right? So I'm always in this inner conflict, and some days when I'm in ego, I'm terrified to get on and do this. Right. And I think that comes from being young and being gay, because we are hiding. We're literally. Think about it, we're in the closet, living in the closet. That means we're living in a state of hiding, right? Inauthenticity, invisibility. And I think it's so crucial for. For us to be visible, right? And then what we experience when we become visible in. Even in our own community, we were ridiculed and we were. People wanted to pull us down and stuff like that. So it's just really fascinating how visibility is a big piece. Very big piece.
• 25:40
  Speaker C: I'm going to take it even a step further and going back to my experience with being alone again. As you imagine being in the closet, you're in there alone, right? It's your secret bear. You have to carry that burden alone. And at least in my case, I pushed everybody away for safety. And so loneliness, maybe that's when I got really good at being alone. I was a lonely kid. I got used to it. And so that is the birthplace, I think, of that lone wolf could be for a lot of people's in the closet, right?
• 26:06
  Speaker A: Oh, my God. Yes. We're onto something here, folks.
• 26:09
  Speaker C: Yeah. The Trauma of Growing up in the Closet. The Trauma of Growing Up Gay. Queer.
• 26:14
  Speaker A: Yeah. That's the title of my next Perfect. I'm having a special guest and I won't reveal it, but the title is the Trauma of Growing Up Gay. So that's awesome.
• 26:23
  Speaker C: Listen up next time, guys.
• 26:25
  Speaker A: Yeah, we're getting the juices flowing here, folks. We're only at question one, and it's getting juicy. If you're listening to this podcast, I want you to pause, just take a moment and answer that question for yourself. What was it like for you to live in the closet? If you're watching us on YouTube, pause the video, write in the comments. What was it like for you to live in the closet? We want to hear from you. I think this is a very, very important conversation. So let's. Let's bring it down into the comment section. And if you want to continue this with us and with other members in our community, we have these discussions. In the Gaiman's Brotherhood. We offer sharing circles, which are larger groups. One person shares at a time. Everybody gets impacted. They get to hold space. And then we also have our connection circles, which are pods of three or four. You get to do exactly what Michael and Reno and I do each week. You get to hang out with some of your brothers in the Gaiman's Brotherhood and talk about and have these conversations and support one another. And it's a great way to feel like you're not alone in this journey. And if you are living in the closet, come to our sharing circle. You can leave your video off. You can do it anonymously. You can just be there and feel what it's like to be with other gay men. That can be your first baby step. If you are interested in any of what I just talked about, you can go to gay mensbrotherhood.com check out our event section to RSVP. If you don't have Facebook, you can get on our email list and we will email you the zoom link. All right. What did it take for you to come out? So let's move forward to the next. The next milestone. And you got the courage and now it's time to come out. What did it take for you to muster up that courage, Reno?
• 28:03
  Speaker B: There's a moment I talk about this. There's a moment where the. I want to call it like a tipping point where the suffering we endure becomes greater than the fear of whatever perceived outcome will arise from, let's say in this case are coming out or doing the thing, whatever the thing is. And I think in some ways it was a bit of that and in other ways it was like just the right moment. So I had, up until about 19, I had lived a double life, right? I grew up in rural Manitoba. I had, you know, on occasion there were guys driving out from the city, the hour commute to come and see me. I was hooking up in cars and behind cabins and basically anywhere I could without getting caught. I was using MSN messenger and MSN groups. This is like back in the day, right? And then on occasion there are guys who I'm in school with who it just so happens, are also curious. And so I'm exploring with them. So all of this is happening while I'm in school. And then simultaneously, I'm also exploring, like, how I express myself in terms of style. I can remember you had two options. Our gym teacher was unwell and you had two options. You could, like, sign up for dance or you could use the weight room. And I remember I was like, well, I really want to do dance, but I'm going to go and do the weight room thing because I don't want to be outed, right? The reality is I wanted to lift weights and dance. And guess what? I'm just realizing this now. I do both, like almost every day, right? I was like, I'm not this or this. I want to lift heavy shit and I want to dance Now I get to do both, right? So that's a wink to those of you who are still grappling with this. That's what's on the other side of this, hopefully. Hopefully. You know, so I'm 19, and I remember I snuck a guy in through, like, my dad's basement window. I would go stay with him every second weekend. And I remember sneaking this, like, skater dude in through the basement window and, like, hooking up with him and then sneaking him out the back door before everybody woke up. Like, I was scandalous, and it was so fun. And then, yeah, one day I was going to a party, and I was with my friend Colleen. Shout out to Colleen. She's like. She was at my birthday party just, like, last weekend, and we grew up in Gimli together and then reconnected in Winnipeg, and we were going to this party. I said, yo, this girl that I met invited me to this party. And this girl had a crush on me, by the way. And so we go to this party, and we show up, and, like, the people there are a bit younger than us, and there's, like, jello shots and stuff. Colleen and I roll in, we, like, slam a couple jello shooters. I end up making out with this girl who has a crush on me. I'm not even into her. And then we, like, leave the party to go to the club. And on the way, I said to Colleen, I was like, there's something I want to tell you. And she's like, okay. And I said, I think I might be, like, bisexual or something. That's what I started with, because I wasn't really sure, you know, I mean, I kind of knew them. I think that was probably the safer thing to say. And I remember she was, like, so supportive. And actually, now that I think about it, I told her before we got to the party. That's what happened. And I can remember telling her, and she was so receptive and enthusiastic about me sharing it with her. And, like, this is my bestie. Like, we were like ride or die. To be honest, there was this strange thing. She and I were so close that at one point, I think we both thought we were, like, in love with each other, which was another sort of complicated layer to things, you know, because I'm like, oh, my God, I don't know what this is, but we're, like, inseparable, you know, she's like my bestie. We did everything together. And so knowing that she was comfortable with it, knowing that she was so supportive of it, and also explorative in her own ways. I remember thinking, if this is the only person who's, like, on my team, I don't need anybody else. You know, like, if everybody else is like, fuck this guy. He's gay. I'm good. I'm fine. I've got Colleen. It's me and Colleen. I don't need anybody else. Thank goodness it didn't go down like that. So after I told her, I started kind of gradually telling more people. So I think next was my family. I messaged my mom, and I said, hey, mom, there's something I need to tell you. I'm going to call you in a bit. And I remember her responding, okay, Reno. And I. It's funny, because it was like that, knowing, okay. Like, even in text form, I knew. I was like, my mom fucking knows. She knows what's going down. So I'm on the phone with her promptly after, And I'm like, so, you know, there's something I want to tell you. And I'm kind of be there. And she's like, okay, Reno, like, what's up? And I was like, I'm gay. And she was like, I know. I was like, what? And she's like, yeah, dude, I've known since you were three. Like, she's like, I've been waiting for this moment. She said, I could not wait until you finally told me because I wanted to take you to the gay bar. Like, I'd been anticipating this for ages, and so I said, okay. I was like, does dad know? And, like, do my siblings know? And she's like, yeah, they probably know, you know, because, like, something I'm realizing is it was blatantly obvious, like, I'm gay, you know? Like, it was so obvious. And she's like, but you can still tell them, you know? Like, they'll still want to hear from you. You know, it's like, okay. So I said, you know, can you put them on the phone? So, like, one by one, they sort of are on the phone. And I'm like, hey, guys. Like, there's something I want to tell you. I'm gay. And they're like, yep. Like, we know. Like, how are you feeling? Like, how are you feeling about this? And they're like, yeah, we're good. Like, we love you, bro. It's cool. The only person who I actually didn't tell on the phone was my bro Joelle. And funny enough, here's how this went down. So it just so happens I invite him out to the bar with Colleen and I, and we're going To Geos. And across the street from Gio's, there's this apartment building, and there's this guy who I met online years ago, Lied to him, told him my name was Jordan. So when I meet him the first time, I'm going to G's. I'm with Colleen and my brother, and I'm like, hey, Matt, my name's Reno. And he's like, wait, who's Reno? And I'm like, I lied to you because I was in the closet. I'm sorry. My name's not Jordan. It's Reno. Nice to meet you. So we have this amazing night together. So all in one night. I, like, meet this guy, come out to my brother, Then we go back to this guy's apartment across the street, and I end up in his room. I spend the night in his room, and my brother and my best friend spend the night on the couch in the other room. It was so funny. Like, what a way to come out to my brother. And he was just such a sport about it. So it was great. But after that, I just hopped on Facebook. To be honest, I think I maybe told a few more people, but I hopped on Facebook. And back in the day, you could change your status or, like, who you're into, and everyone who followed you would see it. So I was like, let me just rip the band aid off. So I went, like, into men and changed it. And all of a sudden I had this, like, wall of comments like, oh, my God, congratulations. Like, that's so awesome. Da da da da da. So it was pretty spectacular. I had some people who stopped talking to me. That did happen. You know, there were surprisingly, like, a couple of my closest friends, but it was pretty amazing. And then, you know, some. It blessed their hearts. Like, there were some, you know, some friends who were like, so how do we relate to you now? You know, like, what do we. What do we do now? I'm like, just don't be weird. That's what you do. Like, just be my friend. Just keep being my friend the way you always have been. Like, just don't be weird about it, you know? And they're like, oh, okay. Yeah. So what a ride.
• 36:48
  Speaker A: Thanks for taking us on it. Yeah. I could feel all the. All the emotions. I was like, wow, this is intense. So much emotion.
• 36:56
  Speaker B: So much. Yeah, Yeah. I remember my mom said she. My coming out for her, my big coming out was my birthday party. I wore this, like, asymmetrical sequins top with, like, this chiffon sleeve, and I had this, like, Sex in the City party. And I got my hair done. There was like blonde like extensions in it and stuff. It was just really fit. And I got my lashes done. Like I just went full tilt. I was like, I am out and I'm just gonna like do my thing and then find myself somewhere in all of that, you know. It was a journey for sure.
• 37:34
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 37:35
  Speaker B: Michael, what about you?
• 37:37
  Speaker C: I will say what resonated very much was the tipping point. When you talked about the tipping point, oh my gosh, do I know that feeling really, really well. And that's what it was, is a tipping point. I think everyone has their own right. As you view, your listener are thinking, listening to this, like you probably think of, okay, it just. It got too much. It got too much and had to happen if you came out on your own terms. There's also people who were outed, not on their own terms. Right. Shout out to those peeps. Cause that's tough. But for me, that fire within me, that thing, the gay part of me, if you want to use some parts, was just so strong. I was 19, I was horny as fuck and I just had to do something about it. And so I was on gay.com. i was like doing all the things and I'm like, okay, I'm gay. The site is called gay.com, like in Yahoo chat rooms is the gay one. So like, I knew it and I couldn't bear it anymore. So that's what it was for me. Like, I think like a lot of people, I just couldn't bear the energy it took to not be me. And that desire to be free, to be liberated was so strong and I could just taste it. And eventually it just. I just did. I. I came out to my best friend at the time, which was happened to be my ex girlfriend. I liken it to the feeling of, you know when you like watch movies or watch those medical shows and someone's got like a big piece of shrapnel stuck in their chest, but like, they can't stay there, so you have to like take it out. And there's so much pain and there's so much blood and it looks like it's going to get worse before it gets better. That is coming out. Sorry, guys. I paint such a bleak picture. But guess what, though you heal, I promise you heal. The wound heals, I promise. I wrong. But yeah, that's what it felt like for me is. Is that shrapnel. But it hurts so bad. But it just has to happen. The. The alternative is worse than the alternative of staying in the closet is. Becomes too much to bear. And I will say as well, you know, Reno, another thing that you said that really resonated was the concept of, like. Like, as I was on the cusp of doing it, I remember thinking, if this all goes down, fuck everybody. Like, I was in this, like, rebellious. Like, I will run away. I will do what I have to do. I will. Like, I just had this very rebellious part of me, and I was like, okay, I'm. I'm ready to push all my friends away, my family, Fuck it. I'm just gonna do it.
• 39:50
  Speaker A: And.
• 39:50
  Speaker C: And that's kind of where it didn't go down that way. Thankfully, I was very blessed that it was not that bad. But, yeah, you kind of have to be ready to just, like, fight it out. And that. That's what it was. That. That was me, like, on the edge, on the brink of coming out, and it all. It all worked out.
• 40:05
  Speaker A: Yeah, I feel that in you, actually. It's like a fierceness in all three of us, really. Like, you know, there's. That we did it. You know, we put ourselves in that position, and there's a strength that we get. There's. I'm a firm believer that with all pain, we can turn it into a treasure. We can turn it into strength or resilience or something like that. So it's a blessing, right? I had an addiction. I turned it into a career. Being gay, having to come out, you can turn it into. Be Learning how to be fierce. Right. Like, practicing courage over comfort. Like, I think a lot of queer and gay people have this gift. Once we go through, it's like a. An initiation.
• 40:40
  Speaker B: And thinking about the boy who wrote that journal or, like, you know, you Matt, Little Matt, or little Reno. Who knew that all of that would lead to this? None of us knew all those years ago that, you know, writing in our little journals, like, oh, you know, that we would be on the Internet, on YouTube, recording things and helping other gay people. Like, that's insane. But like you said, from our pain comes purpose. Wow.
• 41:12
  Speaker A: Yeah. It's interesting. And so I'm. I'm connecting with, like, a lot of. Like, that feeling of being alone is coming up a lot right now. And I think I did what you did, Michael, is I, like, I pushed everybody away, and I became an island. And, like, that was my way of coping with things. And I'm just. I'm still meeting this part of myself, and I think that's part of my attachment style, like, being disorganized. It, sure, it came from childhood trauma within my family system, but I also think my attachment style was developed out of this stuff. You know, like the trauma of growing up gay and having to hide. And that's probably more the avoidant side of my attachment style is push everyone away, become an island. They can't reject me because I've already rejected them. And I think that's how I try to keep myself safe. And there's also a part of me I'm noticing, like, feeling that's not angry, but it's. I think it's grief. I didn't really get an adolescent. Like, I didn't get to feel safe and playful and fun, and I didn't get all that stuff. Like, it was like trauma. Like, my young person went through so much trauma. And I think that's why, like, a lot of gay men go through like this second adolescence when we do come out and it's like, you know, and I look at it from maybe a judgmental perspective and be like, oh, gay men are developmentally delayed. Well, we are, because we had so much trauma and we didn't get to like, be our authentic self and develop our authentic self from a young age. So we have a developmental delay. So we need to go through those stages, but we tend to go through them later in life. But what did it take for me to come out? Oh, man, my soul and my heart. Like, I am very soulful and very heart centered and like, that needed to lead the way. Like, I couldn't. I made it to 18 and my body forced me out with like the blushing and all these issues that I was having with my health and addiction. I literally was forced out of the closet by my own self and my ego. Didn't want to, but my soul knew I had to in order to liberate myself. I think I was frozen. I really do. I think I was frozen as a kid. I think I was frozen as a teen. And my way of coping with being dissociated and numbed out all the time was addiction. And I was addicted to crack from the age of. Well, I was addicted to cocaine. Started using cocaine at 16 and then 17, 18. I was involved in using crack, and I used crack from 17 to 24 years old. But I was heavy using in between the age of 17 and probably 19. And it's really interesting that I was. I was frozen, I was numb and I was using a stimulant. Right? I'm highly sensitive. I have sensory processing sensitivity. So stimulants don't work well, with my system. But at that time, they were amazing. They were good for me because I was frozen, so I needed a stimulant to kind of just live. And, like, that was what was bringing me joy because I wasn't getting joy because I was so shut down and going into rehab when I was 18. I came out at 18, so it was all within that one year. And I. It's hard even, like, to recall memories. It's. It feels challenging. And I think as I'm thawing out in my adult life, I'm like, I'm remembering things that are coming back. Like, oh, yeah, like, this happened at this time, and timelines are starting to come back. But, yeah, I remember leaving rehab and using still. But then eventually I just ended up getting to a point where I needed to come out. And I remember I came out to my. My best friend Vanessa at the time, and I told her that I was bisexual exactly like you, Reno. And then I just started coming out as gay. And I'm trying to, like, even just feel, like. Just feel right now. And there's a lot of sadness, but there's also, like, there's a fire. And I think that's what got me. An inner fire of just like, it was anger. I think anger was a piece of it. I couldn't handle the shame anymore. I think that was a big piece of it. I just needed to, like, break free. And I was feeling so confined within myself that I needed to, like, let people in. You know what I mean? That was such a hard part for me. Right. It's like when you've been an island for so long and you're hyper independent, and then you. You realize that the only way to get away from the deep loneliness and despair and shame is to, like, let's start letting people on your island. It's a very scary feeling. I just know that there's a lot of emotion, like, moving around in this conversation. I can feel it with all three of us. And I want the audience. So check in with yourself right now. Like, what are you feeling? What are we stimulating in you? Yeah, just hold your hand on your heart and just feel into what's. What's there. This is a tough, tough thing for a lot of us. And whether you're in the closet or you're out of the closet, there's still young parts of us that might still be in the closet or have not recovered from living in the closet for so long. And let's just honor those parts right now and give them. Give them space. And attention. And if you're feeling lost in this whole journey and you're not, like, you don't know where to go, this. This podcast is a great place to start. You can go through all of our episodes and get some clarity. But we do also offer a coaching collection. And this is an evergreen program that you can take. It's got 45 videos in it, plus two courses. So healing or shame, Building Better Relationships. And then we've got 45 other videos that will help you with this journey, help you with coming out, these sorts of things. So if you're interested in wanting something a little bit more prescriptive towards, you know, gay men and. And helping with the coming out process, you can go to gay men going deeper.com for more information about that. All right, last question. What advice do you have for someone who is living in the closet and is scared to come out?
• 46:34
  Speaker B: Okay, so I love this question. There's a few things, and it's not something I would have been aware of previously, but one, there are elders everywhere. And I hadn't really considered that back when. But luckily there were elders around me in the form of my grandmother or my mother or what have you, you know, different people, but there are elders around. Just weeks ago, I went to fairy camp. And if you're not familiar with the radical fairies, I recommend Googling the radical fairies because they're everywhere globally. And there are gatherings and communities online and offline. And it's this whole sort of rogue, grassroots, this beautifully rebellious kind of queer community. And they had. At fairy camp, they had this thing. I. I gotta share this. They had this workshop. It was a slow dance workshop. And I have seen fewer things as beautiful as queer people finally getting to have a slow dance right together. Shamelessly. Something we miss out on in high school. And I was just so grateful for that experience, it almost moved me to tears. And the other thing that stood out to me was there were so many elders there. You know, so many people who had gone the path, had gone through that journey, had navigated the AIDS epidemic as well. You know, all of that, right? And, like, survived all of that and came out of it with this great wisdom and this great caring and compassion. So I would say, like, number. And maybe not number one, but one of the things I would list is if you can find an elder, find someone who's gone the journey and who you can trust and who you can confide in and who can support you, you know, because sometimes we don't have our. Our parents don't have the capacity. The people around us don't have the capacity. And I learned that I can't fault them for that. They just. Certain people just didn't know better. They just did not know what they didn't know. And then the other thing is, it's your journey. It's your journey, so you get to decide the pace at which you move and come out and express and reveal yourself and. And all of that. That's not up to anyone else. That's for you to decide. That's for you to suss out. Is it safe? Isn't it safe? I know that we live in a country where, luckily, we're a bit safer than in. In other places. So, you know, to those of you who aren't in places that are more privileged in that sense, like, use your discernment, you know, because for some of us, it may be life or death. For those of us who it isn't, you know, there are resources, right? There are organizations. Look up your local LGBTQ organizations. Look up different communities and groups online. You know, we have the Gay Men's Brotherhood. I'm sure there are so many other groups out there like this, but, yeah, I think just really honoring yourself. Back to what Matt was saying about presence. Get really present and notice what occurs to you and really be discerning about finding resources and gradually coming out. It's a process, and honor it as such. You know, it's a sacred, difficult, messy, beautiful, liberating process. Honor it as such.
• 50:21
  Speaker C: Well said. I want to pick up on that a little bit, because I'm happy you mentioned that. Reno. I am currently in Italy in Europe, and I have been here for five weeks. And in Italy, being gay is perfectly legal. You're not gonna go to jail. You can even have civil unions, I believe. And it's a Western European country, so, yeah, everything is legally fine. But what I've come to learn, having been here for five weeks, trying to meet lots of handsome Italian boys, there are a lot of people who are in the closet, like, a lot, a lot. And I'm like, why? What's happening here? Right? And what I've come to learn is that the Catholicism runs deep. It is not just a religion like it is in Canada, where I was raised. It is a cultural force that shapes everything. It shapes tradition, family norms, everything. It literally has infiltrated their entire society here in Italy, at least. And anyone who spent a lot of time in Italy, if you live here, if you've spent much time here, you know what I'm talking about. And so I've come to start talking to a lot of the guys that I've met here, either online or even in person. I've gone on some. Some nice dates, and I asked them about this. I'm like, what's going on here?
• 51:34
  Speaker A: Why.
• 51:34
  Speaker C: Why are there so many people here in the closet? And that's what it is. At the end of the day. It's like, yeah, it's legal, but that. Legal. Legal doesn't matter. Like, it's. It's the cultural piece. So law is one thing, but the social, cultural fabric of a community, a country, a region, whatever that might be. And this even happens in Canada. Like, if you go to rural areas of. Outside of where I live, it's going to be very different than in downtown Toronto. So it's not just at the. At the national level.
• 51:57
  Speaker A: Right.
• 51:58
  Speaker C: So a lot of guys don't come out and they hear, they feel like they can't, or it's just. It's. It's. It's such a heavy, strong force. So it's not easy. And the word Reno uses privilege. And I think that that's correct. Right. Like, law is one thing, but culture is another. And so these things do shape your experience and they shape your choice because you could. I know. I remember thinking the same thing. I'm going to lose my family. I can lose my friends. And that societal pressure to conform is very, very much so getting to the bottom of it. It's really about self preservation. When I ask them, why, like, why not, like, it's legal, you're in Europe, you're going to be okay. It really is a lot about self preservation. It's not about a unwillingness to want to be authentic. And they have the role models. They can see all the great things that it can be. It's just really, the pressure is very immense. And I would say that tipping point that we talked about, the longer you wait, the harder it is. I'm gonna go out on the limb and guess that because the longer you wait, the more there is to lose. Or there, like, you've played that rule for so long that it becomes almost like, okay, well, I've done this for so long. Like, you get used to it. This isn't so bad. You kind of become that lobster in the pot that solely boils itself. So I would say going back to second, what Reno said, assess your safety first. Assess you know, where you are, if this makes sense. Be very kind and understanding that you are really going against suffide here. And that is a very Difficult thing to do. You know, ask yourself, is this a safe time to do it? Is this a safe place? Context. And it is one step at a time. It is a process. We've done a few episodes on Coming Out. You don't just like, pluck the switch and then you're on every. I'm still coming Out. I had to come up to my, like, nephew, like last year. He's six years old. He's like, where's your girlfriend? I'm like, okay, here we go. So anyway, coming out is a process, right. It never stops happening. What has helped me. And we all talked about it, right? Like you had Colleen, Matt. I forget your. Your friend's name. Vanessa. Thank you. And I had my. My bestie. Have an ally. Start small. Find somebody, a trusted friend. If you have one in your circle. A family member, a teacher, a mentor, a therapist, a professional, someone that can help you and at least. At least be. If you're not going to come out, then at least you have that one person who you can go to with things. And that way you're not completely alone. And then from one ally, hopefully you can have a bit of a network and they can support you. Because I wish I could sit here and guarantee for everybody that it's going to be fine. The reality is it might not be. Now, I will also say that in all of my instances of my coming out and helping clients come out, it has never been as bad as we thought it was going to be. That's just my anecdotal experience. But of course I didn't get to happen.
• 54:23
  Speaker A: So many juices are flowing. It's a lot. I'm glad. I have a therapy session after this at 1:00. So I'm like, oh, this is good. Let's get the juices flowing. And I'm going to go and do some release work. So. Okay. What advice do I have for someone who's living in the closet and scared to come out? Yeah, I can feel it. I can just feel the fear. And it brings me back and it's like, oh, it's so heavy. It's a massive burden. Massive burden. So I swear that's why I have shoulder pain, because I carried this massive burden for most of my life. Yeah. The first thing that I just wrote all this stuff down while you guys were talking. I tried not to prepare today, but all these ideas came through. Visualize yourself without the burden. What would your life look like if you didn't have to carry this and just play with imagination? Right. Can you see yourself on the other side of not having to, right? And just use your imagination to go to that place and try and use like the imagination for possibility, right. Sometimes we think worst case scenario and you know, we assume that everyone's going to reject us. We assume that we're going to lose our job and we assume all these things. And I'm not going to speak for everybody, but in my case it was the opposite. I didn't have any issues. My family still loves me, you know, I'm still successful. I'm all these things, right? I'm so thinking worst case scenario. Try and think best case scenario and deal with the aftermath if you have to, as opposed to like dealing with the aftermath that you are creating before you've even done it. And then I wrote down the word exposure. You know, I think exposure is important. If we're not ready to expose ourselves, then we can expose ourselves to people. I mean, we can expose ourselves to content, to. To stuff where it's. We're not having to reveal ourselves. So exposure can help us start to decondition ourselves from the programming that we've had. Because if you think about how cultural conditioning or social conditioning is implemented, it's repetition and emotion, right? It's like we hear messages constantly. We feel the emotions attached to these messages and we start to believe. Our beliefs start to form, they develop into core beliefs and then these become self concept. Well, if we want to undo it, we have to create new pathways of ways we want to believe and think about ourselves in the world around us. So exposure is the best way to do that, in my opinion. So our podcast courses get into groups like, you know, Michael has his gay and shameless group. I've got my authentic relating and empowerment for gay men group. And you can go to gay mensbrotherhood.com, go to coaching, and Michael and I are listed there. You can see us go to our websites, check out what we're offering for our groups, because that is a really good place to go and start to expose yourself to other gay people. Right? Connection circles, sharing circles, all of this stuff come out as buy first. It worked for Reno and I, right? Come out as buy, test the waters, dip your toe in and be like, oh, okay, right. You can always go back and be like, oh, you know what? I'm not buy anymore. I'm just going to pretend to be straight again or whatever, right? So play with it. It's all trial and error in this process. You don't have to. It doesn't have to Be perfect and it will be messy. And through that, be gentle. Be super gentle with yourself. And Kristen Neff has been a savior for me as I've been navigating a lot of heaviness in the last few years. And she does some beautiful work on self compassion. I didn't know what self compassion meant until this year, honestly. We've recorded episodes on it. I've created content on. I didn't really know what it meant. I'm just now realizing what self compassion means by actually embodying it and her process that she takes people through her guided meditations, everything. That's a great place to start, to start to offer yourself compassion and realize that you're not alone, how to move towards your suffering. Right. And be with it. Because this is suffering that we're. We're enduring as gay men in the process of coming out. It can create a lot of suffering. Yeah, those are my things.
• 58:14
  Speaker C: I think. What people will always fear the worst when they're thinking about coming out. Of course, that's safety. But find good news stories, because I can tell you, there are so many people who thought the worst came out. It wasn't as bad. Was it ideal? No. But it wasn't as bad. And so there's a lot of those stories out there. And I think it's worth finding. So even in our community, maybe we can share some coming out stories of things that didn't go as bad as you thought. It's a good idea.
• 58:39
  Speaker A: And our pain can become our purpose. Just like we said earlier, like, you know, I have a career out of it. Brotherhood. I've got brothers. You guys are my brothers, and I love you to death. And like, you know, so, like, I've gotten friendship, I've gotten family, I've gotten all these things from it. And I only could have done that if I came out and like, started to live my truth. Right? And I. That's why I say, I always say when we. When we own who we are, we attract who we need and what we need, we can only attract it when we own it. Right? And we're here in whatever capacity as the Gamins brotherhood. We're here for you in your process and. But it's up to you to reach out. We can't reach out to you. You have to reach out to us. And there's many, many ways you can connect with us. And I want to just honor both of you. Thank you for just. Yeah. Your rawness, your emotion, what you brought to today's conversation, because it really opened up Something for me. And it allowed me to share myself in a way today that I hope is heart centered and people feel me, because I think that's what I wanted from today. And I felt you too. And I know the audience will also feel you as well. So.
• 59:36
  Speaker B: Yeah, this episode was so juicy. Like, I feel like we probably could have gone for even another hour, you know, there's so much here. It's so rich.
• 59:45
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, there's more opportunities this month too, because we're talking about coming out all month. So it'll be an opportunity for us to do some healing and also impart that into the community so we can all start to heal these parts of us that are still maybe traumatized and still struggling with, you know, internalized homophobia and all of that. Yeah.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker B: And if I could just say one final thing as well, I think it's so important to remember, like, there's nothing wrong with you. You know, I feel like we. There's the outer, the external sort of battle we're fighting as we're navigating all of this, and then there's everything we internalize in that inner battle that we're fighting. And it's like, I just think it's so important to remind everyone like, that's not yours. You know, that's not yours. There's nothing wrong with you. You're beautiful, you're perfect, you're whole. You know, there's nothing wrong with you. And I think it's so important to keep coming back to that. You know, I wish I had someone to remind me of that and tell me that constantly on the regular. There's nothing wrong with you.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker A: Thank you for that. And you also made me think of something that's a really beautiful thing about being gay. And what makes us resilient as gay men is our sense of humor. I think that is such a beautiful thing. So sometimes we get caught up in our own suffering and we lose the lightness of life. And it's like, just remember sometimes how crazy this shit is and how crazy life is and how crazy our minds can be and playing tricks on us. And sometimes we just have to laugh at the whole situation and be like, this is absolutely absurd. Right. Because it is. It is. And thank you to the listener, viewer for coming on this journey with us today. And hopefully your heart opened a little bit and you were able to kind of feel into your own process and that we can start to impart that. Right. This is a community thing. Our community needs healing. So when we do this work individually. We're doing it for the community, for our fellow brothers. So okay. Lastly, this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you do enjoy what we're creating, you can support us by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes. Or if you're listening on YouTube, you can tap the thanks button and you can send us support to the community that way. You can also support our community by subscribing to the early Access option on Apple Podcasts where you can listen ad free and gain early access to episodes. All your support helps us to continue making content for you and supporting our community and we do thank you in advance. And that is what all of the money goes back into the Brotherhood and we use it for all sorts of different things, community initiatives and stuff like that. So your donations do help us continue to do what we're doing. And if you want to come and have this conversation with us, like I said, come to our connection or our sharing circles. Everything GMB related gay mensbrotherhood.com Much love everybody.