Latest / Sunlight Matters / Sunlight and health in our modern lives with Arne Lowden

Transcript

Sunlight and health in our modern lives with Arne Lowden · Sunlight Matters

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Circadian rhythms are very important for the organism.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: About fifty percent of all our bodily cells are dependent on some kind of rhythmicity.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: To steer the circadian rhythm, you don't need UV, you need the visual light spectrum and especially the blue wavelengths that we receive fully when we go outdoors.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Sunlight Matters, the podcast that reconnects us with the sun.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Join us as we explore the power and influence of our star, the force at the heart of everything.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Each episode we speak with leading experts to uncover the ways sunlight shapes our world.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to today's episode of Sunlight Matters.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: And uh we have a very special guest joining Georg and I today, and that is Arnie Loden, uh author, researcher, um academic from Stockholm, Sweden.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: So, Arnie, would you briefly like to introduce yourself and then tell us a bit about the book that you've just written?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I am um a sleep and light researcher.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: I live in Stockholm in Sweden, and I have been investigating how light behavior affects our health and behavior as well.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um I have recently studied what happens if there is a snow cover.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Do we receive more light, although most of us work indoors?
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, yes, we could see an effect of snow cover.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Snow cover will increase light exposure, and that could be helpful during the dark days.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I have also been studying various groups in society that um will are objected subjected to what we call social jet lag, that is a disturbance of your circadian rhythms.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: So those groups are, for instance, shift workers that could all also be teenagers.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: I was gonna say teenagers and students and uh exactly, and also we've been studying um old people's homes and people living there.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, of course, those who are very old and ill, they will not be able to go outdoors much.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: So that's also a risk group.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: Fantastic.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: Well, listen, we're gonna we're gonna dive into that in a bit more detail uh in in a bit in the podcast.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: But um I was keen for you just to sort of talk a bit about the book that you've written, which is called Survive the Winter.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it's broken into three parts.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I just wondered if you could just sort of talk through the the three parts of the book and what what it is that you were trying to achieve with the book.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um yes, it is quite handy to have three sections in a book.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um I heard from the publisher.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: So we decided to do that.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: And first of all, there has to be some kind of background for those who are not that familiar with what light means to humans and in the evolution of of our eyes, because we we we do receive eye through our light through our eyes, and this is a process, and this is how the brain is reached by the by light, and then it produces hormones to inform the body bodily cells about about what time of day it is.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: So we needed a section that took care of these explanations of how we are affected by light exposure, and then of course the implications, um what happens if we don't receive enough light, and and uh and then finally, what can we do about it?
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: What to think about in the ways we behave towards light, uh, but also how we use um electric light.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: Is it possible to exchange daylight for electric light, for instance?
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: This is one question.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: And and in our time we spend more and more time indoors.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: This is a phenomena uh all across the Western world.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um we also uh seem to um be less active.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, that is.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: We choose, for instance, to go to a gym in a basement rather than maybe go outdoors.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: So our behavior in in these days really points toward um uh a less uh exposure to natural daylight.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: We also live in a fantastic time because actually now it is possible to uh introduce electric light that very closely resembles daylight.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a it's a promise actually, and we we know we will talk a little bit about light therapy for instance, and we now can actually I think it's a it's possible to to to present a a light that is very healthy also for those who cannot reach the daylight.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: So so so can I I I mean it's interesting because I mean I was actually reading some research which was saying that even since COVID people are spending even less time outside.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I think one of the things you talk about is our bodies were designed uh for a 12-hour cycle of daylight on the savannah, and I guess that that is how we're kind of all geared, isn't it?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um we are really built to have 12 hours of daylight, and then again, 12 hours of almost darkness, and and this this forms and gives us a very nice uh circadian rhythmicity, and it which is which is the which is healthy, as we have seen.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, our human body needs to restore organs, and uh we need to have a very nice recuperation with sleep, etc., during darkness, to be able to be active during 12 hours at least, and maybe 16 hours of wakefulness.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: And um also in the old days, actually, people were spending quite a lot of time s outdoors, for instance.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: This country only 150 years ago, most people spent a lot of hours outdoors because they were farmers, for instance.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: And this this is um a pity because this means that the evolution hasn't really formed a system to warn if we have too little light.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I sometimes uh compare it to hunger and thirst.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: These are very strong drives and tells us uh what we need.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: But the need of s of light is not signaled to us because only recently we have been spending so much time indoors.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: So this means we have to, in other ways, inform people about the need of light.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: So it's interesting because I guess this is all tied within uh the the notion of the circadian rhythm.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I just want because you know people will often read about circadian rhythms, and I but I just wondered if you could sort of quickly demystify what that is.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and because I think it's important for people to understand that.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_04: I would be curious about the you mentioned the 12-hour cycle, and in Nordics, like Sweden, you do have a drastic seasonal change.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_04: You so you have a lot of of light in the summer and almost nothing in the winter.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_04: So, how how do you deal with this and how how would nature like people to deal with it?
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_04: Like, is there a winter hibernation, or what what would you suggest in these regards?
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, unfortunately, we cannot behave like bears and other animals.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: But but but um um in Sweden where I live, we do have daylight also in winter.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: For instance, in Stockholm, we have uh six hours of daylight also in winter, and there are several capitals, uh not many capitals that north.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: We have Helsinki, we have Oslo, we have Stockholm, uh but all these cities have at least five, six hours of daylight in December.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: So this means we do have access to daylight still.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: And um so what happens is that we have a lack of light during the dark season.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: Now, this gives us not enough light to signal to our brain time of day.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: So this means our circadian rhythms is a little bit out of rhythms.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: The most common phenomenon is that we tend to go to bed to bed later and we would choose to get up a little later, and so we are we are a bit jet lagged in general during the dark season.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: Circadian rhythms are very important for the organism.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: About 50% of all our bodily cells are dependent on some kind of rhythmicity, that is, they are active during parts of the day and they go into a more restoration um um uh scene during during mostly during darkness, and also we have a lot of hormones that follow a rhythmicity that is close to 24 hours.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Now, the thing is we have all individuals have a different internal rhythmicity.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's close to 24 hours, but you know, as a sleep researcher, we tend to divide humanity into two.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: We say some are evening types and some are morning types.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: Night owls or skylarks.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: There are many names.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: And this demonstrates that we have different rhythms, and we say that you know, throughout evolution, this is very good because some could watch while some could sleep, etc.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: We could sort of, you know, some people would get up early and feed the animals, etc.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe this was a good for our survival to have different uh different rhythms, but this actually will affect our behavior and how we react to lack of light.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: So if you are an evening type, you have a tendency to have an internal rhythm that is longer than 24 hours.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: So, like we have seen in the blind, uh, if you can't use light as a time setter, uh, you will actually adapt to your internal rhythm.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're a per evening a very strong evening type and you have like a 24-hour internal rhythm, you will start go to bed one hour later every day.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_04: And this is a 25-hour cycle, right?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: You will follow a 24-25-hour cycle, and only after two two weeks, you know, you you will you will have a very, very, I would say, discomforting cycle, and you will not be able to adopt to the rest of the society.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, you will not be able to have a decent work.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: And there are people who actually have told us about how difficult it is if you can't regulate your circadian rhythm.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's so Arnie, it's fascinating you mentioned that because my father-in-law uh suffered from dementia, and one of the things that happened to him is he he's day and night switched.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: So we'd go and see him in the day and he'd be asleep, and at night he was awake.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, we like so the dementia impacted his circadian rhythm or that part of the brain which manages it.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: So it's kind of fascinating to hear that that can kind of happen.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yes, that is a good example.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: In dementia, the the system of regulating your circadian rhythm will be disrupted and sometimes also actually destroyed.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that is a difficulty.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um we know that uh dementia patients are benefited by light therapy with so that they can have a clear, uh more clear circadian rhythm, and this also actually is brings some good results in the development of their dementia.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: And anyhow, if we took if we again talk about the evening types, what they need is actually a very strong light pulse during the morning hours.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, in the old time the rooster would tell us when the sun goes up and people would go outdoors, and evening types need this morning light to be able to follow a 24-hour circadian rhythm.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: So the evening types probably need to then be getting up earlier than they would.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, at least they need first to have the morning light because it's impossible for an evening type to go to bed earlier.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and sometimes we complain of our teenagers that oh, why don't they go to bed in time?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: But the thing is they can't they can't because their hormone the hormones are not um not adjusted to the clock.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: So um what we call the social clock or the sun clock, that's one clock that is exactly 24 hours, and then we have our internal clock.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: So all these body cells they need to know what time it is in order to be able to be regulated in accordance to the 24 hour clock.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that is why light is the most important timekeeper for the circadian rhythmicity, and uh uh we see a lot of disturbances uh and and the the disturbances are very much similar to what we experience in jet lag when we travel across the world.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: At the home at the home base, we call it a social jet lag.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: So it includes being um having sleep disturbances, um, daytime fatigue and sleepiness, a sense of weariness.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_04: And it affects your motivation and also performance, etc., and a number of physiological functions, hormonal cycles and uh cortisol um and uh adrenalin and yes, like practically speaking, for people living in cities like I do, for example.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, if if you have a garden, you can go out in the morning, you are really like even if it's cloudy, I learned that it's it's already enough to go outside in the morning, even on cloudy days.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_04: But having like an apartment in a city, would it be enough in theory to just open your window and look into the sky for 10 minutes?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_04: Or what can people who live in cities, which is the majority, do?
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I think it's it's not a very good tactic to open your window and just stare out your window.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: It is very good, actually, it is a very but people won't do that.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's better that they go outdoors and sit and read the newspaper or you know, bring the computer to the balcony.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: I uh owner's org, I think, is a good one as well.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: So we're we're doing some research of our own on dog ownership and people getting outside.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: What a nice way to get daylight, you know, to have a dog, because the dog will always remind you that please go and seek the daylight.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: And and I mean just uh on that, dogs will have their own circadian rhythms as well, won't they?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: So exactly, and um yes, the circadian rhythm is in you know quite genetic.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: So of course you can you will all if you're sort of uh genetically, um if you are an evening type, you will always have a problem getting to bed in time.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: But but if you if you have um regular light pulse, you will actually be able to adopt to also to 24 hour rhythm.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: And most people can do that quite well, I think, in society.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: But as soon as you don't get that daily uh dosage of light, you will have problems.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: And uh for most people they think that oh, but you know, uh maybe on Sunday I can go outdoors, or they say, Oh, I have this travel booked to Mallorca, or you know, some vacation coming up a month later, and they think this is enough, but it's a bit disappointing for them to know then that what we need is actually a regular dosage of strong light, and actually just by sitting close to the window is good enough.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and the the window glass blocks maybe 30% of the light.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, well that that's interesting because again, I was reading or listening to something which was saying that patients in hospitals which are near windows tend to recover quicker than you know, so there is obviously a really strong, and and that was one of my questions actually is if you sit behind glass, does it impact it?
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it does.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: So so um, but but it means that also by driving a car or sitting in a bus, you do receive daylight.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_04: And the thing is the dosage will be a little bit smaller, so and it's also specific spectrums which are filtered out, like UV is especially filtered out, and um that's exactly necessary.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um to to steer the circadian rhythm, you don't need UV.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you need the visual light spectrum and especially the blue wavelengths that we receive uh fully when we go outdoors.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: But then, of course, depending on the light spectrum of our light bulbs, uh most people, at least in northern Europe, they tend to like the yellow light.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: And this is not so nice actually for their rhythm.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_04: So when you say it's important to have blue light in the morning, would it be sufficient to just check your phone right away after waking up?
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: And blue light closage in your like if you if you position your phone really close to the eye, imagine it will actually take up a large part of your visual fields.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so if I go close, that's better.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: The thing with the thing with windows is that only three meters away from a window, a normal window sized sized window, the effect is dramatically reduced because the the field in your view of this window will just get smaller.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: So we have to teach uh educate people to stay close to the window, really close.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: That really helps.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I I I I'm just showing you this.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: So this is uh a Vision Pro from Apple, and it's funny because I was talking to someone from Apple and saying, you know, the light I get when I look at sort of some of their videos feels like proper sunlight because of the colours they can use, and and you you know, so I'm guessing from that, if I looked at blue light through a Vision Pro, I'm because it's sort of so up close, you're gonna get the effect that you need.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: Problem solved.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: Problem solved.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: But remember, this blue dosage of light, it actually uh we have it in the daylight.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, daylight during the morning hours is quite bluish.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right if you if we look at the spectrum.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: But towards the afternoon, and of course when the sun goes down, we have more red colours.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a time where you should start avoiding blue light.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: So if you have a habit of using your device in the evenings, it will actually give um contraproductive information to the brain.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: The brain will actually think that oh, have you moved to the US?
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's it's fascinating.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: So one of the things I wanted to talk about was the the impacts of this social jet lag as well.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean I'm I'm somebody I grew was born and raised in the tropics, and now I live in the UK.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: We've just endured a miserable winter, uh, although it wouldn't look like it.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we had a whole month where we didn't see the sun, and you know, it really does affect me.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I get uh seasonal sadness, uh sad or whatever.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um I also suffer terribly from jet lag as well.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I sort of feel like I'm I'm very connected to my circadian rhythm.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: But but I was just wondering if you could just talk about um some of the actual impacts from a kind of psychological point of view that people may have.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: And also then talk about light therapy, because we sort of touched on it, but is there a way to to or a wavelength or whatever that you should be looking at um to avoid things like SAD?
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, we have um a situation in the Northern Europe and maybe especially in the Nordic countries, where we very clearly see that about half the population will admit that they have more difficulties with their sleep and with their mood and energy levels uh during the dark months as compared to the summer.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: So we also know that maybe thirty percent of these have a a little bit of more of a severe situation, and then it uh and maybe even a less percentage, let's say uh four to eight percent have a sort of more of a sort of handicapping situation where they have to go to the the clinic and be treated maybe with antidepressants or or so.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: So there is a variety in sensitivity, of course, um but we really we clearly see that uh the visits to psychiatric clinics increases in winter.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: We also see um a very clear increase of use of medications, both uh antidepressants and sleep aids in winter.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: So there is a clear societal effect of living in the north.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: We also know that the the far north you go, problems in do increase.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: So in northern Sweden, people have have larger problems than in the south.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_04: And the further away they are from the equator, the worse it gets.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_04: It's like completely matching what's yes.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: But remember, yes, we call it sometimes the the latitude hypothesis that we do believe that latitude influences health.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, we have also seen in studies that happiness actually increases in the summer.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, whereas if you live close to the equator, you have a very even um curve across seasons when you look at mental health.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas in the Nordic countries you see that we are we get actually more happy in in summer and less happy in winter.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: So we have sort of this annual uh cyclic cycle also.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm just like living in the second.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: Can I can I ask, have you done it?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: Because I I know like the the the British are famous as big drinkers and things, and you know, I wonder if there's sort of a degree where there's some self-medication going on.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, in a way it's depressing that what you're saying is as we go into the winter months, you know, people are using dru uh having to use pharmaceuticals to kind of help them sleep and things.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I I wonder if there's another way around that because that doesn't feel good.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: But I was just wondering about like alcohol is is quite prevalent in sort of the UK and I guess Scandinavian countries, and whether you've looked at sort of that as a a thing to help people get to sleep or whatever.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yes, it's it's very common that people do take some alcohol to to to to get go to sleep.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um but the the alcohol consumption has gone down.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we don't have we don't we see sort of a more modern drinking habit.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: Binge drinking, for instance, has gone down quite a lot in many countries.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we see more uh drinking also on weekdays.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's a more what what what we call continental style of our relations to alcohol.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um we know that um uh for instance um there's a connection actually between um summer and alcohol because people are you know on vacation and it's a lot of sun outdoors, you know, there's a lot of uh a lot um more social interaction uh during summer, you see friends more often, etc.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that actually will induce more drinking.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a it's a vulnerability during the vacation period, also.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's a little bit difficult to say, but but uh we also know that um during the the light season, uh you know light gives us more alertness, and also there are some people that are sensitive, so it also can trigger maniac reactions, and this will cause even more at times more drinking, and also it might induce uh suicide behaviors as well.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: So so there is a problem with the very very bright season as well.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: Is is that because people are unable to sleep so much, or um it has more to do with the uh with the I think the light being alerting.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it's it's okay.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: So they're sort of firing them an adrenaline and exactly, exactly.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: So we have to be careful during the the bright light season or the summertime to to to have darkness during sleep.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: We need very good shades in our bedrooms, for instance.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: And this that's so interesting because one Of the thing again, I'm sorry to talk about myself, but when I come into spring, I always, as the days get longer, I've always found it actually quite difficult to sleep.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and it you know, my body takes a little time to adjust with that daylight kind of coming through, and you know it's interesting to hear what you're saying.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, because we have a bright light coming very quickly in in the spring.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and um the sun, for instance, in this country, you know, already at six o'clock in the morning, the sun is up, and people haven't had time to to um see that their uh shades in the bedrooms are good enough, so it's also almost surprises them.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: But uh eye shades are good, you know, there's many things you can do to help your um your sleep.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean it's interesting because I one of the questions I had was about um you've got eye shades, but obviously sunglasses as well.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: So uh you know you you're you're you're wearing um slightly tinted glasses, I can see.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um but you know I've been again reading quite a lot about the impact, the negative impact actually of sunglasses on on people.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I just wondered if you had any thoughts around that.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yes, oh yes.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if if you are a person that wears sunglasses during the winter season, then you are probably sensitive to light.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: And there are there is a group of persons that are what should I say oversensitive to light and they try to avoid light.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: And this means they will definitely definitely not they will be evening types, most of them, and they will actually many of them will choose to be night workers because they have they have a sense that they don't like the light.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: So they are very very jet-lagged.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: And um we know that uh some people uh like if you if you have um diagnosis um like ADHD or similar diagnosis, then you might be more sensitive to light.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: And we know that uh those those have more problems also with their sleep and regulating their circadian rhythms.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so we also have we actually have a little questionnaire, light sensitivity questionnaire, where we ask people uh when they use sunglasses.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we all should use sunglasses um during summer and especially in the middle of the day, because we have to protect our eyes from because there's such a lot of energy coming from the light, and it has to be transformed in our eyes to heat, but also there will be a lot of waste products in our eyes, and it's very difficult for our systems to take away these waste products, so that by aging we can see that our eyes is also are also there they're really aging, and we get a less efficient um um system eye system.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: So there are things with the eye glass with the sunglasses.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think that um uh we should avoid using sunglasses in the mornings going to work, for instance.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I don't think we should use sunglasses just uh to be, how shall I say, stylish.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: We should um you know we should use sunglasses when appropriate.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: I realize, yes, my my s my glasses are tinted as soon as there is a strong light.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: And even today, uh although we have an overcast day in Stockholm, they are a bit tinted.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: I I realize you can see that.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: I I get when I go outdoors, even on a winter overcast day, I get 5,000 lux, which is the strength of the light.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: But as soon as I go indoors, uh there's a tenfold decrease of and I can use my glasses, you know, almost to detect.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: So as soon as my uh my glasses are tinted, I know, oh good, now I have a good light outdoors.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: So we're we're we're sort of running quite short on time, but I did want to talk about light therapy as well.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: So um you you know, the so when people uh are looking to get an extra dose of light other than putting their phones up to their eyes in the morning, what what are some of the other things that people could should be looking at um in order to get that light therapy?
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, there are a number of um companies making light therapy lamps, and so they can be used.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think you have to try it out, and I think normally it's a good um tactics to start to get familiar with where is where is the peak of your rhythm and where is the trough the lowest time of your rhythm, and there is um a rule of thumb here.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: So if you ask yourself when in the morning would I wake up if I were had a free day and not geared by my alarm clock.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: So if you would answer let's say nine o'clock in the morning, this means that the trough or minima of your circadian rhythm is two and a half hours earlier.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: So so that would be six thirty.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: You should you should you should adjust the exposure to come uh slightly after that hour.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: So what you should do to get the most effective uh light therapy is to maybe wake up 15 minutes, 30 minutes earlier, and then do your light therapy treatment maybe for half an hour or one hour, and then maybe you you then could try to go to bed 15 minutes earlier.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so our uh light receptors in the eyes they are more sensitive to the bright light, actually the blue wavelengths, in the mornings.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: So if you do the bright light treatment later in the morning or in the off, you know, before lunch, then we are not as sensitive.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: But it's of course it should not be ruled out to have a bright light therapy session also in the in the late morning.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: But this means to get the best dosage, you actually need then to stay longer with the bright light.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: You should never have bright light treatment in the evenings.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: So so what up in the evenings should you be looking at red light or yes, um that is that is of course much better.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: And is that is that th worth it from a therapeutic point of view, having red light?
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um well are you if you're talking about the infrared bright light sort of treatment, there is now a um I I've seen it's getting popular to have this infrared, but that actually has very much less um scientific evidence at the moment.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it could be healthy for your skin, of course, and the production of um um substances in the skin that is good for health, etc.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: But it's something different.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so uh we are now today.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're much much more talking about the the the bright light therapy used.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: And you have to do it you have to try it out for maybe two weeks and do it on a regular basis um daily.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: Then it it's a very good way to I think to to actually um um prevent these uh feelings of depressions.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's also good to use actually in combination with antidepressants.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: People do realize that they get depressed and maybe they start too late with their light therapy.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: So actually, light therapy should be given, I think, you know, try to try to avoid this, you know, by by using it to in preventive uh times.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: And also it can do it can be might it might well be used in combination, I think, with uh medication use.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: But I I think if people from what you're saying, if people are uh looking at it from a preventative point of view, then hopefully they can avoid medication.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: So yes.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: We also have to remind ourselves because you know antidepressants is now the first-line choice of physicians and doctors, but antidepressants doesn't really tackle the the sleep problems and the alerting effect that light gives.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_04: It makes it even worse, as far as I know.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we have to we have to use, I think, still light therapy to be able to um uh adopt our circadian rhythm to the clock time and also to get alert during the day and to feel uh energetic.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_04: I think what's so cool about about sunlight is and like you can do a lot of self-experimentation like rather easily without complicated lab setups or something.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_04: And anecdotally, I I just last Saturday I spent a whole day outside, which is not so common.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, spring is coming now, but this happened and it has an impact on my on my system immediately.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_04: Like the whole week unfolds differently, and and I feel better, I feel more awake, my sleep is better, everything just gets better.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_04: So it's it's really something.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I I I'm encouraging all of our listeners to just spend more time outside in the sunlight and um try it out themselves.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_04: It's just it's for free and it's so positive.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um, yeah, and you can just try it out and see yourself.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_04: You don't.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I think it's always cool to have scientific research being done to confirm new modalities and stuff, but it's really something everybody can try out themselves and and just see, look, look, look at the bodies and uh mind, how it yeah, changes.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, of course, it's it's the best thing is actually if we in a in a in a uh in a smooth and natural way can be exposed to daylight in our daily lives.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I I look very much look forward to uh new offices when uh it's a possibility to you know go out in a greenhouse, for instance.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: Can you imagine an adjacent greenhouse to offices where the people can go and talk, have meetings, stay?
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you don't need to be there the whole day.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, that's it.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_02: That's it.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, and uh, you know, I guess there's a question which is if people are dreading winter because of things like sad, what what would your advice be?
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: It sounds like George's Georg's advice is to get out in the sun.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'd would would yours be the same or um oh yes, but there are there are many things you can do.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think if you're aware of your problems in winter, if they are repeated every winter, of course you can plan to go south for a vacation.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: If you have um you can plan vacation also in winter, uh that is a good way, and of course, you can try the therapy lamp um for breakfast for your kids, etc.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think also uh to be able to sit close to windows if you have the possibility, and if you can't do that at your work, you can actually try to reach a daylight during lunch, maybe have a walk outdoors during lunch break.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you have to, you know, there are a number of different I think things you can do, and of course, why not try the outdoor gym once in a while?
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: Or you know, um try to get out.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um did you say get a dog?
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_02: I I will borrow a dog, yeah.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so these are also very helpful.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_04: I'm using them now for a month or so.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_04: A friend gave it to me, and it's it's really helpful.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_04: Like I really see the impact that using these at night when I'm working late, um it has an impact on my sleep.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_04: Like my sleep is as good as never, actually, right now, which is yeah.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that is so good, yes.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: I I myself I have a blue filter on my computer, on my phone, etc.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: And um those blue blockers are are nice, yes, and good good good for the rhythms.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: So so final question for you if you could live anywhere in the world, where would you live um with all of this in mind, you know?
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: Because we're like Gerg and I we talk about finding your spot in the sun, basically.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like, where where would you go to find your spot in the sun?
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: Or are you quite happy living in the Nordics?
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: And well, the thing with us living in the north, we we do very much enjoy uh the different seasons.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: I I love, for instance, to go skiing, um cross-country skiing in winter.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm a little bit troubled these days uh with uh a global change, etc.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I think um I think the ideal thing is actually to to live close to the ground where I where I can go outdoors and have a cup of coffee, you know, in daylight, maybe close to nature, and to have uh uh generous windows and to to be able to set up a daily habit where I can actually you know follow the seasonal change and to see changes uh of time of day and to be able to catch the sun where when it's there, but I also know that you know these overcast days and the snow, etc., will help.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: So actually I'm quite happy with living um at a latitude of of of 60.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think uh I think in my daily habits I will be able to to to reduce my my my social jet lag actually.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_02: Fantastic.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_02: Well listen, thank you so much for joining us.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, we're we're hoping that your publisher will will publish your book in English.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um but you know it's uh been fabulous to talk to you uh and you know get your insights.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you so much for joining us.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I love the fact that you've joined us from an outside place in the middle of Stockholm as well.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, fantastic that we can meet in these ways, don't you think?
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_02: Fantastic, yeah, and have these talks about it's great to great to do a podcast where we're we're sort of all spread around in different places, but we've all found our our our own spot in the sun.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's such a great idea you have with this podcast, I think.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.