Latest / Sharp Strategies Sweet Success / #67 - Protecting Law Firms from Cyber-Attacks and Integrating them with AI

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#67 - Protecting Law Firms from Cyber-Attacks and Integrating them with AI · Sharp Strategies Sweet Success

0:00
SPEAKER_01: there is hacking,
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but it's not like the movies where somebody in Russia or China
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is behind their
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SPEAKER_01: computer and targeting this law firm,
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SPEAKER_01: right?
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SPEAKER_01: It's automated.
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SPEAKER_01: And now with AI,
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they just send out millions and millions of bots to go out and
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sniff to see if
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SPEAKER_01: there's issues,
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SPEAKER_01: vulnerabilities.
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And then when they notice one,
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that's when the human comes involved and says,
0:17
okay.
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And there's criminal organizations out there that operate like
0:21
a corporation.
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SPEAKER_01: They get benefits.
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SPEAKER_01: They're all in a corporate building.
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SPEAKER_01: It's insane.
0:37
SPEAKER_00: Sharp strategies, sweet success.
0:40
SPEAKER_00: Hello everyone.
0:41
SPEAKER_00: And welcome.
0:42
This is Tiffany Svedensky and you're listening to sharp
0:45
strategy,
0:46
sweet success.
0:47
SPEAKER_00: Today I'm speaking with Kellum parks.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: I've known Kellum for a long time.
0:52
SPEAKER_00: Originally when I worked for GLM, met him at a few of our events.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: And I think he was a member of GLM for a while.
0:59
And him and his firm,
1:01
Park Ziegler,
1:02
are a big PI practice in Southern Virginia.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: I see their name come up in SEO reports whenever I'm scanning the area.
1:10
SPEAKER_00: So I definitely know they're doing a good job down there.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: And Kellum is just a fantastic person,
1:16
fantastic attorney that I've known for a very long time and
1:19
very happy to have him
1:20
SPEAKER_00: on the show.
1:21
SPEAKER_00: And I'll just turn it over to Kellum to finish out his introduction.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Tiffany.
1:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, actually, that's exactly right.
1:27
SPEAKER_01: So we met, I've been a member of GLM since 2012.
1:30
SPEAKER_01: When I started my firm,
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SPEAKER_01: I always laughed and said,
1:32
but I just shared with Ben recently for his 20th anniversary of
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great legal
1:36
SPEAKER_01: marketing that I saw him on the,
1:38
I saw him on YouTube and he convinced me to start my own firm
1:41
without ever having
1:43
SPEAKER_01: met.
1:43
SPEAKER_01: He really, he pushed me over the edge.
1:44
SPEAKER_01: So that was great.
1:46
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, so I started as a solo in 2012.
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SPEAKER_01: We actually, believe it or not, don't do personal injury anymore.
1:50
SPEAKER_01: We did personal injury at a time.
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But since I started doing family law,
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I thought I was going to do some fair credit 49 cases.
1:58
SPEAKER_01: And now almost this January will be 14 years.
2:02
SPEAKER_01: Now we do 13 practice areas.
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SPEAKER_01: We've got 14 lawyers, three offices, two states.
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SPEAKER_01: I personally do cybersecurity data privacy work,
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SPEAKER_01: high asset divorces,
2:11
SPEAKER_01: and complex civil when I practice law.
2:13
SPEAKER_01: But I like the business a little more.
2:15
SPEAKER_01: So I try to do less practice and more business.
2:18
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, so really love this stuff.
2:20
SPEAKER_01: I'm in charge.
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SPEAKER_01: My partner, Brandon Ziegler, and I, we split up management.
2:24
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm in charge of marketing and take systems,
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SPEAKER_01: procedures,
2:27
SPEAKER_01: and tech,
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which is why I really love being on this podcast because I love
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marketing.
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And we have our own internal marketing manager that I work with
2:33
very closely.
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SPEAKER_01: So near and dear to my heart, what you do.
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SPEAKER_00: Well, and I should have did better research.
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SPEAKER_00: I just assumed personal injury so many times,
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SPEAKER_00: but you said cybersecurity law and that's,
2:45
SPEAKER_00: might be the first time I've heard of that.
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SPEAKER_00: What kind of cases are those?
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SPEAKER_00: Like, what are you guys looking for?
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so cybersecurity can be a number of things.
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SPEAKER_01: There are some firms,
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SPEAKER_01: usually larger injury firms,
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they do class action work where they sue companies that have
3:00
data breaches.
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SPEAKER_01: We're not in that world.
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SPEAKER_01: I represent companies.
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SPEAKER_01: And so I do two things.
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What I really like to do is help businesses across,
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and actually a lot of it's consulting work.
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SPEAKER_01: So I represent companies across the United States.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't need to be licensed in those states to do this kind of work.
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SPEAKER_01: But I help businesses prepare.
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SPEAKER_01: And so I put together three plans for them.
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SPEAKER_01: I do a data breach avoidance plan,
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SPEAKER_01: get the right insurance,
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SPEAKER_01: get them the right tech set up with the right company.
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SPEAKER_01: A lot of times they don't have the right company in place.
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And then we talk about how they handle their data,
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who has access to their data.
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SPEAKER_01: I also do a tech policy, which now includes an AI policy.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm big into AI for our firm and personal use.
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SPEAKER_01: And so I help the companies put together for their handbook.
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Here's our firm or our company tech policy,
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including AI policies to really tighten it up.
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SPEAKER_01: And then the third is an incident response plan.
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So I work with them to,
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hey,
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when something happens,
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here's what we're going to do.
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SPEAKER_01: And one of the biggest pieces in insurance,
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SPEAKER_01: because cyber insurance,
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cybersecurity insurance really isn't a one size fits all like
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liability insurances
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SPEAKER_01: or auto insurance.
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So a lot of people don't have a policy or they have a rider and
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the rider's bad.
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SPEAKER_01: And so those three things really help businesses lock themselves down.
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SPEAKER_01: And then the other part of what I do is legal.
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And that's in Virginia,
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North Carolina,
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where we're licensed here at the firm.
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SPEAKER_01: And that's incident response.
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So when something happens,
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you have certain legal obligations to notify people and
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respond.
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SPEAKER_01: And I work through those crisis events.
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across both states i've got a couple i've got a lot going on
4:27
right now actually but
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yeah so i got into about eight nine years ago because i'm a
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tech guy and i just i
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saw i was speaking about it and i did an event with somebody
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who actually practices
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it and after five minutes of meeting her she's like you're
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really stupid not to do
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this so i said well it's very nice to meet you but she was
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right and so now i do
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that it's probably about 70 percent of what i do personally for
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when i practice law
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SPEAKER_01: so i really like it a lot
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SPEAKER_00: Man, that's and it's so necessary.
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SPEAKER_00: And unfortunately,
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I don't think a lot of business owners realize just how much
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data like and just
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SPEAKER_00: speaking purely from like marketing data perspective,
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like I'm dealing with forms and automations and systems that
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house personally
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SPEAKER_00: identifiable information.
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And it's so important for law firms to understand what it means
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to transmit data
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SPEAKER_00: from one system to another,
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SPEAKER_00: how to keep that secure,
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SPEAKER_00: the importance of something basic like two factor authentication.
5:27
SPEAKER_00: And so I think every business needs this because like,
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SPEAKER_00: I feel like once a month,
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SPEAKER_00: well,
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SPEAKER_00: maybe not that frequently,
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SPEAKER_00: but like once every two months,
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I get a letter in the mail about like how there is a data
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breach from just some
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SPEAKER_00: company that has like some of my data or something like that.
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SPEAKER_00: And it's been exposed and it happens all the time.
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SPEAKER_00: And one thing that this may not be entirely related to what you guys do,
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but like I was vetting a lead generation company that generated
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leads from Facebook
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SPEAKER_00: for personal injury attorneys.
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SPEAKER_00: And the person I talked to the salesperson, it was an American company.
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SPEAKER_00: I went to their website and learned about their site,
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SPEAKER_00: but through their privacy policy and their landing pages,
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SPEAKER_00: I found the ads were actually run by a company in Saudi Arabia.
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SPEAKER_00: And, you know, just think about that for a second.
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SPEAKER_00: There's a Saudi Arabia company running ads for, you know, in the U.S.
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SPEAKER_00: People are filling out the forms.
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Their personal data is being transmitted to Saudi Arabia and
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then back to American
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SPEAKER_00: law firms who are buying these leads.
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And it just seems to me like I don't think people realize like
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you submit a form
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and how far and how many people like get access to that and see
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that information.
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SPEAKER_00: And it's scary.
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SPEAKER_00: It's actually scary.
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SPEAKER_01: I mean, you're right.
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SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately, not enough people think about it.
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SPEAKER_01: So from a business perspective,
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SPEAKER_01: if you have a data incident that turns into a breach,
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SPEAKER_01: and the breach is that legal term of art,
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SPEAKER_01: meaning that personal information has been compromised,
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SPEAKER_01: which is the triggering the notifications and everything else,
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not only do you have a business problem because you have the
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money and the response
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SPEAKER_01: and the cost,
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SPEAKER_01: and a typical response is six figures.
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SPEAKER_01: It just costs that much, which is why you need the insurance.
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But as lawyers,
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we have an ethical obligation to protect our client
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confidences.
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SPEAKER_01: And so not only do you have a business problem,
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SPEAKER_01: but if you haven't taken most states,
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SPEAKER_01: the standard is reasonable.
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But if you haven't taken reasonable steps to protect this data,
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you may have a bar problem.
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SPEAKER_01: So it's a big issue.
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SPEAKER_01: And I find...
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Not surprising to you because you work with a lot of law firms
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that lawyers
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SPEAKER_01: typically aren't very technologically savvy.
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And so the challenge is getting them to understand the
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importance and then paying for it.
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SPEAKER_01: But it's really important.
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SPEAKER_01: And so what I try to do,
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SPEAKER_01: and I do a lot of speaking on it and I try to make,
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I have a lot of connections with IT companies and insurance
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companies to try to get
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SPEAKER_01: in front of these people to say,
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SPEAKER_01: hey,
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SPEAKER_01: this is really important.
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SPEAKER_01: And basically, what I work with them is I do a consultation.
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SPEAKER_01: I say, hey, here's a form.
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Go work with your IT company and fill this out,
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which does two things for me.
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SPEAKER_01: It also tells me how messed up they are now.
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SPEAKER_01: And that also helps me price these plans, right?
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SPEAKER_01: How much work am I going to have to do?
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But it also tells me low-key if their cybersecurity IT company
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is any good.
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Because if they come back and can't answer these questions,
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that in itself tells me something.
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SPEAKER_01: And I've put together guides.
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I've put together guides for businesses,
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HIPAA organizations,
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and law firms.
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SPEAKER_01: So I have similar guides, but trying to focus to each industry.
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SPEAKER_01: So at the end,
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SPEAKER_01: when we give out contact information,
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SPEAKER_01: if anybody just wants to email me,
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SPEAKER_01: I'll tell you where to go,
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SPEAKER_01: and you can download the guides.
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SPEAKER_01: Because if nothing else,
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SPEAKER_01: it helps them understand,
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SPEAKER_01: hey,
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SPEAKER_01: this is what I should probably be doing,
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SPEAKER_01: and here's how I vet these companies.
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SPEAKER_01: Just to get them started.
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SPEAKER_01: Because again, it's just so important and people just don't realize.
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SPEAKER_01: And until it's too late.
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I love when I get connected to people before something happens
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and then they
8:54
actually pay attention and hire me and I help protect them
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because it minimizes the
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chance something's going to happen and maximizes the response
9:01
and also covered by
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SPEAKER_01: insurance.
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SPEAKER_01: I got to tell you though,
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probably 70% of my clients come to me after something's
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happened and they don't
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SPEAKER_01: have insurance.
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SPEAKER_01: And so they're like, hey, I need to hire you.
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SPEAKER_01: And I said, okay.
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SPEAKER_01: Buckle up, it's going to be expensive.
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SPEAKER_01: And then I protect them after.
9:18
SPEAKER_01: Right.
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SPEAKER_01: But it's a thing for sure.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: Oh, wow.
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SPEAKER_00: And help me explain this to attorneys.
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SPEAKER_00: Cause I've been trying,
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SPEAKER_00: but when it comes to like data breaches and hacking,
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SPEAKER_00: like,
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SPEAKER_00: and maybe I'm wrong on this,
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SPEAKER_00: but like,
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it's not actually like hacking like it is in the movies where
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somebody is like
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SPEAKER_00: furiously trying to get through your firewalls.
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SPEAKER_00: It's social engineering, right?
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SPEAKER_00: That's how a lot of these companies are getting access.
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SPEAKER_01: That's the most of it.
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SPEAKER_01: Now there is hacking,
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but it's not like the movies where somebody in Russia or China
9:53
is behind their
9:54
SPEAKER_01: computer and targeting this law firm,
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SPEAKER_01: right?
9:56
SPEAKER_01: It's automated.
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SPEAKER_01: And now with AI,
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they just send out millions and millions of bots to go out and
10:01
sniff to see if
10:02
SPEAKER_01: there's issues,
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SPEAKER_01: vulnerabilities.
10:03
And then when they notice one,
10:05
that's when the human comes involved and says,
10:06
okay.
10:07
And there's criminal organizations out there that operate like
10:10
a corporation.
10:11
SPEAKER_01: They get benefits.
10:12
SPEAKER_01: They're all in a corporate building.
10:14
SPEAKER_01: It's insane.
10:15
So that does happen,
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but far more frequently,
10:18
exactly like you said,
10:19
it's social engineering.
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SPEAKER_01: And it's a phishing attack or a spear phishing attack,
10:23
SPEAKER_01: which is a targeted phishing attack against somebody,
10:26
SPEAKER_01: not just some random thing.
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SPEAKER_01: One of your people clicks something and now they're in your system.
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SPEAKER_01: And in the old days, what used to be ransomware was a big thing.
10:34
SPEAKER_01: It still is,
10:34
but that was the number one thing is they would lock your
10:36
system down and then you
10:37
SPEAKER_01: have to pay them in Bitcoin to unlock your data.
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SPEAKER_01: Nowadays, it's much more frequent.
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SPEAKER_01: They get into your system and just wait.
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SPEAKER_01: And then they wait until something happens.
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And so I had a client who they were a service organization and
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they were buying a
10:52
piece of equipment from Canada and they also had a client that
10:56
owed them money.
10:57
And then the bad guys had been in their system for a couple of
11:00
months and just waited.
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SPEAKER_01: And when they saw that happening,
11:03
SPEAKER_01: they posed as the Canadian company and told the victim,
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SPEAKER_01: hey,
11:06
SPEAKER_01: pay us here instead of there.
11:08
SPEAKER_01: And they lost six figures.
11:10
SPEAKER_01: And then they posed as the victim company and told the client,
11:13
SPEAKER_01: pay us here,
11:14
SPEAKER_01: not there,
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SPEAKER_01: and lost more six figures.
11:17
And then only after the third attempt,
11:19
something else is when they got caught.
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SPEAKER_01: And the client lost $200,000,
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$300,000 that couldn't get recovered and now had to respond to
11:27
the incident breach.
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SPEAKER_01: So that's typically what happens.
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SPEAKER_01: And so part of this planning is education.
11:32
SPEAKER_01: So your team is your vulnerable point.
11:36
SPEAKER_01: So it's all about phishing training, have periodic training.
11:39
SPEAKER_01: It's having the things in place.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: Like in our system, we have a sandbox.
11:43
SPEAKER_01: So if you click something on 365, which is our mail server,
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SPEAKER_01: It goes to a sandbox before it goes outside our environment.
11:50
SPEAKER_01: So even if you click a bad link, it's going to catch it.
11:53
SPEAKER_01: We also have something called EDR endpoint detect response,
11:56
which is like a machine learning AI assisted thing that sits on
12:00
all devices and it
12:01
SPEAKER_01: notices weird behavior.
12:03
SPEAKER_01: So it says,
12:03
SPEAKER_01: hey,
12:03
SPEAKER_01: this shouldn't be running or hey,
12:05
SPEAKER_01: this is you just downloaded five gigabytes of data at two in the morning.
12:09
SPEAKER_01: And then that triggers a managed SOC or security operations center.
12:13
24-7,
12:13
there's a human being that at 3 in the morning goes,
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oh,
12:16
let's turn off their internet.
12:17
SPEAKER_01: So all of this works into – all of it comes together.
12:20
SPEAKER_01: Now, none of it's cheap.
12:22
So at our firm,
12:22
we pay about $13,000 a month for our IT and cybersecurity work.
12:27
SPEAKER_01: We have 37 people.
12:29
That also includes IT tickets and setting up our devices and
12:33
quarterly meetings.
12:34
SPEAKER_01: But a lot of that's just all of these tools and everything else.
12:37
SPEAKER_01: And when I talk to law firms, they go, oh my God, that's so expensive.
12:40
SPEAKER_01: And I go, I guess, compared to what?
12:42
SPEAKER_01: Compared to a breach?
12:44
SPEAKER_01: It's not.
12:45
Because I'm able to get the insurance at a good rate because I
12:48
have these things.
12:49
SPEAKER_01: And oh, by the way, I don't have a breach.
12:52
Because we had three or four incidences in the last 60 days
12:54
where somebody tried to
12:55
SPEAKER_01: come into our system,
12:57
click something or did something or somebody actually tried to
13:00
get into our system
13:00
SPEAKER_01: and this stuff caught everything.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: Wow, that is so incredible.
13:06
SPEAKER_00: And I love that.
13:07
SPEAKER_00: And one thing on the marketing side,
13:10
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
13:10
this is kind of mundane compared to some of the stuff you're
13:13
talking about,
13:13
SPEAKER_00: honestly.
13:14
SPEAKER_00: But like,
13:15
this is why when I talk to law firms about access to tools like
13:18
Google Business,
13:19
SPEAKER_00: Google Ads,
13:20
SPEAKER_00: local service ads,
13:21
SPEAKER_00: you really need to have unique accounts for everyone.
13:25
A lot of law firms are still doing this whole password sharing,
13:28
license sharing thing.
13:31
SPEAKER_00: And
13:32
It just increases the risk of vulnerabilities because if you
13:35
don't want to use
13:36
SPEAKER_00: two-factor authentication,
13:37
SPEAKER_00: so everyone can log into a system,
13:40
SPEAKER_00: you know,
13:40
SPEAKER_00: you're disabling like a very important security feature.
13:44
SPEAKER_00: And,
13:44
SPEAKER_00: and also kind of like more operationally,
13:48
it's just useful because like every program that we work with
13:51
in marketing has a
13:53
SPEAKER_00: change history.
13:54
And so if you're trying to figure out like what happened in a
13:58
Google ads account or
13:59
SPEAKER_00: what change was made.
14:01
SPEAKER_00: If you have unique users,
14:02
SPEAKER_00: you can see who made the change and when,
14:05
SPEAKER_00: but if everyone's sharing a login,
14:06
SPEAKER_00: it's just,
14:07
SPEAKER_00: you know,
14:07
SPEAKER_00: anyone could have done it.
14:09
SPEAKER_00: And so like having that, what's the word I'm looking for?
14:12
SPEAKER_00: Structural integrity with your security, I guess.
14:16
SPEAKER_00: That's really, it's so important.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: And not even just from a security perspective, it's just smart.
14:20
SPEAKER_00: It's just smart to do it.
14:21
SPEAKER_00: And so you can track all these individual things.
14:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:24
SPEAKER_01: There's, I mean, I agree a hundred percent with you.
14:25
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it is both a sec it's first of all,
14:29
SPEAKER_01: Multi-factor or two-factor authentication, it should be mandatory.
14:32
SPEAKER_01: Like that shouldn't even be a discussion anymore.
14:34
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
14:35
SPEAKER_01: But then every single person should have their own account,
14:38
SPEAKER_01: both from a security standpoint,
14:39
SPEAKER_01: but like you said,
14:40
SPEAKER_01: from an operational standpoint,
14:42
SPEAKER_01: you can't effectively see changes and audits and track things.
14:47
SPEAKER_01: So on both sides, I couldn't agree with you more.
14:49
SPEAKER_01: And it's just part of it's just education, right?
14:52
SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh, I don't need that.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: But then something happens and then they do.
14:56
SPEAKER_01: So I'm really,
14:57
SPEAKER_01: I got to tell you how much I pound the pavement telling people,
14:59
SPEAKER_01: I'm like,
15:00
SPEAKER_01: look,
15:00
SPEAKER_01: listen to me.
15:01
SPEAKER_01: You're like, I'm not even, don't even hire me, but hire somebody.
15:04
SPEAKER_01: Like at least get insurance.
15:06
SPEAKER_01: Because I think we have a million dollars of really good insurance.
15:09
SPEAKER_01: We use a company.
15:10
SPEAKER_01: So there's three policies I like.
15:11
SPEAKER_01: One is collation at bay and CFC.
15:14
So those are the three big that I really like that are
15:16
cybersecurity,
15:18
insurance,
15:19
coverage.
15:20
SPEAKER_01: We use collation.
15:21
SPEAKER_01: I think we pay $3,400 a year for a million bucks.
15:25
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's nothing for a million dollars in coverage.
15:27
SPEAKER_01: And luckily, we haven't had to make a claim yet.
15:29
SPEAKER_01: But
15:31
SPEAKER_01: It's just the peace of mind.
15:32
SPEAKER_01: And people just don't.
15:32
SPEAKER_01: They go, oh, no, I have.
15:33
SPEAKER_01: So Alps is a big legal malpractice carrier, especially in Virginia.
15:37
SPEAKER_01: And they have a writer for all their policies.
15:39
SPEAKER_01: And the language is actually pretty good.
15:41
SPEAKER_01: Again, cybersecurity policies are really the Wild West out there.
15:44
SPEAKER_01: But their language is good.
15:45
SPEAKER_01: The coverage is good.
15:45
SPEAKER_01: The exclusions are good or appropriate.
15:48
SPEAKER_01: But I think the standard is 25 grand.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, guys, that's not going to touch it.
15:54
SPEAKER_01: 25,000 is going to get gone in a week, two weeks.
15:57
SPEAKER_01: You absolutely need a lot more coverage than that.
15:59
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, you're right.
16:00
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it really is.
16:01
SPEAKER_01: It's one of those things.
16:01
SPEAKER_01: I don't know why.
16:02
And I'm sure I know you're frustrated with it as well because
16:04
you're a tech person
16:05
SPEAKER_01: and you're working with people and you're like,
16:06
SPEAKER_01: well,
16:07
SPEAKER_01: this isn't my lane.
16:08
SPEAKER_01: But let me tell you, you should probably think about this.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:13
Well,
16:13
and a lot of times it's people trying to save on the cost of a
16:16
user license.
16:17
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes those licenses can get expensive.
16:20
SPEAKER_00: But like,
16:21
SPEAKER_00: like you've already pointed out,
16:22
SPEAKER_00: like what's the cost savings on like a $25 a month,
16:26
SPEAKER_00: $100 a month,
16:27
$500 a month license when you stack that up against like the
16:31
expenses incurred by a
16:33
SPEAKER_00: breach or just the headache.
16:35
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
16:35
SPEAKER_00: it can just save you the headache,
16:37
which honestly feels like shouldn't be enough for me just to
16:39
pay for an extra
16:40
SPEAKER_00: license for a program,
16:41
SPEAKER_00: honestly.
16:43
SPEAKER_01: Well, I agree.
16:43
SPEAKER_01: And I think you also see this sometimes.
16:45
SPEAKER_01: Lawyer, it's this weird dichotomy that I have found.
16:48
SPEAKER_01: So we talked before we started.
16:49
SPEAKER_01: I'm doing now some law firm coaching, right?
16:51
SPEAKER_01: So I really enjoy the business side of law.
16:53
So I'm trying to help lawyers run their practices better and
16:56
create sort of the
16:57
SPEAKER_01: best firm for them.
16:58
But part of the discussion I have with these lawyers is they
17:01
don't want to pay for
17:02
SPEAKER_01: things like security or licenses or specific boring tools that really,
17:08
SPEAKER_01: but are really effective.
17:09
But at the same time,
17:11
they will throw absolutely insane amount of money at the shiny
17:14
object.
17:14
SPEAKER_01: And in the marketing world,
17:15
SPEAKER_01: they're like,
17:15
SPEAKER_01: oh no,
17:16
SPEAKER_01: I got this new thing,
17:17
SPEAKER_01: or I want to spend all this money on TV,
17:19
SPEAKER_01: or I want to do these.
17:20
SPEAKER_01: And you're like, guys, stop.
17:22
SPEAKER_01: Like, can we get back to the fundamentals of what works?
17:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:25
I'm sure you had,
17:26
I have to think you have that argument all the time with your
17:29
clients,
17:29
right?
17:31
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
17:31
SPEAKER_00: I can't,
17:32
SPEAKER_00: well,
17:33
SPEAKER_00: when it comes to marketing investments,
17:35
SPEAKER_00: potential clients,
17:37
SPEAKER_00: the one thing I buck up against a lot,
17:38
and this may be a good transition to the other thing I wanted
17:41
to ask you about is
17:43
SPEAKER_00: just like when it comes to shiny objects,
17:45
SPEAKER_00: just like reaching for like that new AI tool that isn't quite there yet.
17:50
SPEAKER_00: I've had like experiences with that like two or three times and
17:54
SPEAKER_00: I love these AI tools.
17:56
SPEAKER_00: Like I use them all the time.
17:57
SPEAKER_00: I'm doing a presentation on AI tools like later,
18:00
but some of these tools can be really expensive and it's just
18:04
like there are
18:06
SPEAKER_00: cheaper alternatives.
18:07
SPEAKER_00: And then you're right.
18:09
SPEAKER_00: It's just like I'll argue with you about a $500 lead docket license,
18:11
SPEAKER_00: but we'll spend $5,000 on something.
18:18
SPEAKER_00: probably not so great.
18:19
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to get too specific today.
18:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're not going to call out any bad, but look, you're right.
18:24
SPEAKER_01: AI tools, especially everything is now with AI, right?
18:27
SPEAKER_01: It's like the multivitamin of the world.
18:29
SPEAKER_01: Everything has to have AI and it's,
18:31
there are some tools that are great and there are a lot of them
18:34
that aren't and
18:34
SPEAKER_01: lawyers,
18:35
SPEAKER_01: again,
18:35
SPEAKER_01: not being particularly tech savvy,
18:38
SPEAKER_01: I see that all the time.
18:39
SPEAKER_01: I had one of my coaching clients I was talking to,
18:41
and they wanted to re-up with a long-term legal research
18:46
organization that happens
18:47
SPEAKER_01: to have AI now.
18:48
SPEAKER_01: And I said, don't do it.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: I said, it's nothing against them.
18:51
SPEAKER_01: I said,
18:51
but you can find better specialty tools for a lot less and you
18:54
don't have to sign a
18:55
SPEAKER_01: long-term contract.
18:57
And so I pointed him in the direction of another vendor and he
18:59
ended up going with that vendor.
19:00
SPEAKER_01: And he called me like three months later and he goes,
19:02
SPEAKER_01: oh,
19:02
SPEAKER_01: thank you so much because I'm getting so much more out of this.
19:05
SPEAKER_01: And if I don't like it, I can change.
19:07
And I have a buddy of mine that signed this four-year contract
19:10
with this other company.
19:11
SPEAKER_01: And now they're paying 800 a month for stuff that doesn't work right.
19:16
SPEAKER_01: And that's the thing.
19:16
SPEAKER_01: They just don't know.
19:17
SPEAKER_01: You don't know what you don't know, I guess.
19:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's true.
19:21
SPEAKER_00: So like, what are the AI tools that you like and want to like share?
19:25
SPEAKER_00: Like what's working for you?
19:28
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
19:28
So interestingly enough,
19:29
and if you don't,
19:30
if,
19:31
have you ever heard of Allie K.
19:32
Miller?
19:34
SPEAKER_01: A-L-L-I-E K. Miller.
19:36
SPEAKER_01: So she is, she's somebody who recommends you and your listeners follow.
19:40
SPEAKER_01: So she's on LinkedIn.
19:41
SPEAKER_01: That's her main platform.
19:43
SPEAKER_01: She was in the AI space 20 years ago as a actual computer walk.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: She worked for IBM, I think, and Amazon at one point.
19:50
And now she basically,
19:51
her whole thing is to try to bring AI to entrepreneurs.
19:55
SPEAKER_01: And so she talks about being an AI first company and how to implement AI.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: And I attended one of her,
20:00
SPEAKER_01: she had a two day AI first seminar convention workshop,
20:03
SPEAKER_01: however you want to call it,
20:04
SPEAKER_01: about three months ago that I attended.
20:07
And it was fantastic because it was a great – and she had some
20:11
good speakers from
20:12
SPEAKER_01: Claude and a bunch of other people to show specific tools.
20:15
But she actually – the idea was how to smartly implement it in
20:20
your company.
20:21
And it could be any company,
20:22
but in this case,
20:22
we were looking at my law firm.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: So as a proposition,
20:26
we're trying to systematically look at how we can implement it
20:29
across all aspects
20:30
SPEAKER_01: of our firm.
20:32
SPEAKER_01: Before we get there, we've implemented it in very specific ways.
20:34
SPEAKER_01: So we started with the low-hanging fruit of legal research, right?
20:38
SPEAKER_01: So we've always been a Lexus entity, so we just tacked on.
20:42
SPEAKER_01: We were one of the first ones,
20:44
SPEAKER_01: apparently,
20:44
SPEAKER_01: I found out from my rep,
20:45
we were one of the first ones in my area to tack on to start
20:48
using their AA product
20:50
SPEAKER_01: really when it wasn't ready for prime time,
20:52
SPEAKER_01: but we used it and understood the limitations.
20:55
SPEAKER_01: And so we still with them.
20:56
However,
20:56
we use other tools,
20:57
which I think perform a little better at this point.
21:00
SPEAKER_01: One of my favorites up until a couple of weeks ago was called Calatus.
21:03
SPEAKER_01: It's now called StrongSuit.
21:05
SPEAKER_01: It was actually one of the founders is a former M&A attorney.
21:08
SPEAKER_01: And they've just done a really good job with legal research,
21:10
SPEAKER_01: contract drafting and comparison and data analysis,
21:14
SPEAKER_01: information review,
21:15
SPEAKER_01: deposition preparation.
21:16
SPEAKER_01: Just a really good tool.
21:18
tool and it's month to month,
21:21
you know,
21:21
unlike Lexis and Westlaw,
21:22
it's not per attorney.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: So we have 14 attorneys.
21:25
SPEAKER_01: I only have three or four that ever need it, but I'm paying 14 lawyers.
21:29
Whereas with this tool,
21:31
it's per license,
21:32
whatever you want,
21:33
because they base it on use.
21:36
And it's,
21:36
I think it's like 150 bucks a month for a certain reasonable
21:41
amount of use.
21:42
SPEAKER_01: So it's really not that expensive either.
21:44
SPEAKER_01: But we also use it across all other aspects of the firm.
21:47
SPEAKER_01: So we use it for obviously for marketing.
21:49
SPEAKER_01: We're just a chat.
21:50
SPEAKER_01: I got into ChatGPT in March of 23.
21:52
SPEAKER_01: So about five months after it launched.
21:55
And so we just have a ChatGPT license for my marketing manager
21:59
and she uses it.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: We have Canva.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: So we have the AI baked into Canva.
22:02
SPEAKER_01: We have Adobe.
22:03
SPEAKER_01: So we have the AI baked into Adobe.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: We use it in HR purposes.
22:07
So we use it,
22:08
I have customized GPTs that I've set up for interviews and for
22:12
job postings.
22:14
SPEAKER_01: I use it as well for writing.
22:15
SPEAKER_01: So I have some specialized AI tools I use for writing,
22:18
SPEAKER_01: both to help me with the drafting and also to humanize it.
22:22
SPEAKER_01: So we use something called, I think it's called humanize.
22:24
SPEAKER_01: So basically,
22:25
SPEAKER_01: which is very,
22:25
I was doing a presentation myself on AI a couple of weeks ago
22:28
and I was talking to
22:29
SPEAKER_01: the audience and said,
22:29
SPEAKER_01: well,
22:30
SPEAKER_01: this is going to get very meta.
22:31
SPEAKER_01: And by meta, I don't mean Facebook.
22:32
SPEAKER_01: I just mean, this is very crazy.
22:34
SPEAKER_01: But basically I use AI to help me write.
22:37
And then I run AI through an AI detecting program that uses AI
22:41
to find out if it's AI.
22:43
And then I use another piece of AI to turn the AI product into
22:46
sounding more human,
22:47
running it back through the AI checker to then publish it so
22:51
that Google doesn't
22:52
SPEAKER_01: know that it's AI.
22:53
SPEAKER_01: So it's insane, but we use it.
22:57
One of the other things Allie talks about is use it as a
23:00
companion,
23:00
not as a replacement,
23:01
right?
23:02
So one of the things that we're looking into,
23:04
we have three physical offices.
23:06
So we have three physical receptionists and part of their job
23:08
is to answer the phone.
23:10
SPEAKER_01: They're not our intake team to try to convert to clients,
23:13
SPEAKER_01: but they are the people that just say,
23:14
SPEAKER_01: hey,
23:15
SPEAKER_01: Park Ziegler,
23:16
SPEAKER_01: how can I help you?
23:18
We're looking into an AI product to offload the calls because
23:21
receptionists don't
23:22
SPEAKER_01: like taking the calls anyway.
23:23
SPEAKER_01: We're not going to fire a receptionist,
23:25
SPEAKER_01: but it's going to give them the opportunity to do more high value work.
23:27
And that's how we're trying to implement AI at the firm is not
23:30
to replace,
23:31
but to delegate routine grunt work and things that people don't
23:35
want to do.
23:36
So that's the big next thing we hope to roll out by first
23:39
quarter of next year is
23:40
to have an AI voice system to answer our calls and call people
23:45
back and that kind
23:46
SPEAKER_01: of stuff.
23:46
SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to think what else we use AI for.
23:49
SPEAKER_01: That's probably the highlights.
23:51
I mean,
23:51
it's a lot,
23:52
but I think we probably use about 14,
23:54
15 different AI products.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: No taking apps.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: So I use granola is one of my favorites.
24:00
I still have fireflies because I bought a year contract,
24:03
but I like granola better.
24:04
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to buy one of the new plod note pluses.
24:08
SPEAKER_01: It's the thing that the new one, it has like eight mics or something.
24:11
So yeah,
24:13
I could geek out about this stuff all day because I love AI so
24:15
much.
24:16
Yeah.
24:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, my note taker has proven to be really valuable.
24:21
SPEAKER_00: And the first one I ever got, I didn't get with Fireflies.
24:24
SPEAKER_00: It's called Read AI.
24:26
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's actually integrated with Copilot or like Microsoft.
24:31
And I'll tell you what,
24:32
that thing is just unbelievably invaluable because it follows
24:36
me around.
24:37
It's sitting here taking notes in this meeting right now
24:39
because I forgot to kick it.
24:41
And I have set this bad boy up to where after each meeting I
24:45
have it'll like,
24:46
SPEAKER_00: if I'm having a client meeting and we're talking about projects,
24:50
it'll actually like break out each project with a title and a
24:53
description,
24:54
SPEAKER_00: send it to my project board.
24:56
SPEAKER_00: and put it on the appropriate project board in the to-do column.
25:00
SPEAKER_00: And I just have to come in and like update it.
25:02
SPEAKER_00: It has my notes from the meeting.
25:03
SPEAKER_00: It has task lists from what we discussed.
25:07
SPEAKER_00: And that's part custom.
25:09
SPEAKER_00: Like I built that with read.ai and Zapier and just some cute engineering.
25:16
SPEAKER_00: And honestly,
25:17
SPEAKER_00: like,
25:17
but just the read.ai thing itself is like super useful because
25:23
somebody asked me a
25:23
SPEAKER_00: question the other day.
25:24
They were like,
25:25
Hey,
25:25
Tiffany,
25:26
why did we do this thing this way last year?
25:28
SPEAKER_00: And I can't remember what I ate for breakfast this morning.
25:31
SPEAKER_00: And I'm just like, let me go.
25:33
SPEAKER_00: I'm better than that.
25:34
SPEAKER_00: But I just, I could, I had no idea what we did a year ago.
25:37
And I went to read.ai and I just typed in like,
25:41
what did we do with this project in 2024?
25:43
SPEAKER_00: Why did we decide we were doing it this way?
25:45
And it told me because we had that discussion in like two or
25:49
three meetings and
25:51
SPEAKER_00: nobody remembered,
25:52
SPEAKER_00: but the AI note taker remembered.
25:54
SPEAKER_00: And so we were able to, oh yeah, that's why we did it.
25:57
SPEAKER_00: And it was just so useful.
25:58
SPEAKER_00: It probably saved us
26:00
several hours of conversation trying to unravel what we were
26:04
thinking the year
26:05
prior and just simple stuff like that can just be crazy useful
26:09
when it comes to the
26:10
ai tools i i've been really digging on the ai note taker
26:13
recently even though i've
26:13
been using it for like two years i've just like rediscovered it
26:16
it's so awesome
26:18
SPEAKER_01: No,
26:18
SPEAKER_01: I think it's great because not only does it obviously capture everything,
26:21
but I think it allows you to be more present in your meetings
26:24
because I'm a big
26:25
SPEAKER_01: note taker physically.
26:26
SPEAKER_01: I don't like paper.
26:28
SPEAKER_01: So when I started my firm in 2012, I was paperless and cloud-based.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: It was pretty radical back then.
26:33
SPEAKER_01: But I'm typing up notes while we're talking.
26:35
SPEAKER_01: And if you're meeting with a potential client and I'm typing up notes,
26:37
SPEAKER_01: sometimes they think that I'm not paying attention to them.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: But if you can have these AI note takers and going back to cybersecurity,
26:43
SPEAKER_01: you need to have a paid account and you need to make sure it's secure,
26:46
SPEAKER_01: right?
26:47
SPEAKER_01: So I pay for Granola.
26:48
Granola is SOC2 compliant and all the acronyms that nobody
26:51
cares about,
26:52
but it's private data.
26:54
SPEAKER_01: Same thing with the PLOD note.
26:55
SPEAKER_01: Basically, you can just sit it on the table and it can record.
26:58
SPEAKER_01: So not only do you have the summaries, you have the actual transcript.
27:01
One of the reasons why I like Granola is I can share the
27:06
summary with someone.
27:07
SPEAKER_01: And at the bottom, it says, hey, if you'd like to interact,
27:11
SPEAKER_01: with the transcript, let me know.
27:12
And you could just hit the link and they can go to Granola
27:14
where they don't need an
27:15
SPEAKER_01: account and they can literally use AI to ask it questions.
27:19
So you're,
27:20
and it's just like you said,
27:21
and then you'd use it with something like make Zapier.
27:24
And then we're going to have a Gentic AI sometime in the next
27:26
year or two where
27:27
SPEAKER_01: it's just going to happen.
27:28
But the idea is it's just,
27:30
it's like you said,
27:31
it's such a force multiplier.
27:32
SPEAKER_01: It's so efficient.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: And that's what I'm trying.
27:34
SPEAKER_01: So going back to the lawyers,
27:37
SPEAKER_01: In the old days, so I'm an old guy, right?
27:38
SPEAKER_01: So in the old days, I had to go to the library and do legal research.
27:41
SPEAKER_01: So we had to actually do it by hand, right?
27:43
SPEAKER_01: So I sound like my grandfather, but that's what you had to do, right?
27:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, by hand.
27:47
SPEAKER_01: And then once I got out,
27:48
eventually Lexus and Westlaw were affordable for the regular
27:51
person and not big
27:52
SPEAKER_01: firms.
27:53
SPEAKER_01: And so my young attorneys, obviously it's all digital and that's great.
27:57
SPEAKER_01: But in the old days,
27:58
SPEAKER_01: like the old days being last year,
28:00
SPEAKER_01: they would have to,
28:01
SPEAKER_01: we would give them a research project.
28:03
SPEAKER_01: They would go to Lexus,
28:04
SPEAKER_01: they would type it in,
28:06
they would root around in the wilderness for a couple of hours
28:09
and they may be in
28:09
SPEAKER_01: the completely wrong track.
28:11
And then they come back with a product that's 20% of what I was
28:13
looking for.
28:15
SPEAKER_01: Now they're all instructed, you start with AI.
28:18
SPEAKER_01: Put this hypothetical into the AI.
28:21
SPEAKER_01: It will get you where you, at least in the right neighborhood.
28:25
SPEAKER_01: Now go root around, right?
28:27
I don't want you five miles away from where you need to be
28:29
because that's going to
28:30
SPEAKER_01: waste your time,
28:31
SPEAKER_01: my time,
28:31
SPEAKER_01: the client's time.
28:32
SPEAKER_01: I can't build a client.
28:33
SPEAKER_01: It's just a waste.
28:34
SPEAKER_01: So let's just start there.
28:36
SPEAKER_01: Now,
28:36
whereas I don't have to go and read every case and read every
28:38
Horn book because I
28:39
SPEAKER_01: know what the issue is,
28:41
SPEAKER_01: you do.
28:42
SPEAKER_01: So I'm still not going to bill 100% of what you're doing.
28:45
SPEAKER_01: But the idea is it's just an efficiency multiplier.
28:50
SPEAKER_01: And that's what I'm trying to teach lawyers.
28:52
SPEAKER_01: And don't be afraid of it.
28:53
SPEAKER_01: People go, oh, it hallucinates.
28:54
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, yeah, okay, but so do your associates.
28:56
SPEAKER_01: They get it wrong.
28:57
SPEAKER_01: Like, you got to look at the work product.
28:59
I still see,
29:01
and if you're really interested,
29:02
there's a guy named Damien Charlottin.
29:05
SPEAKER_01: He's a French technologist and lawyer, and he has an ongoing website.
29:10
SPEAKER_01: So literally,
29:10
SPEAKER_01: if you just put Damien Charlottin,
29:12
he has an ongoing spreadsheet showing every court sanctioned
29:16
based on AI use,
29:17
SPEAKER_01: improper AI use,
29:18
SPEAKER_01: and it's ongoing.
29:19
SPEAKER_01: And it just, every time I talk, it's up another 50 to 100%.
29:24
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
29:25
SPEAKER_01: But I don't understand why.
29:26
At this point,
29:28
that means people just aren't reading what they're submitting.
29:30
SPEAKER_01: It's just, it's incredible.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, so AI is just, it's great.
29:34
SPEAKER_01: People are afraid of it.
29:35
SPEAKER_01: They shouldn't be.
29:36
SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, you can't ignore it.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: And that's the other thing I'm telling lawyers,
29:39
SPEAKER_01: especially in the business side of things,
29:40
SPEAKER_01: is if you're ignoring AI...
29:43
SPEAKER_01: You're going to be obsolete pretty quickly,
29:46
SPEAKER_01: and your business is probably going to go up in flames.
29:48
SPEAKER_01: So you absolutely have to pay attention to it.
29:50
SPEAKER_01: Now, how you use it depends on your practice area and all sorts of stuff.
29:53
SPEAKER_01: But especially if you're in the transactional world,
29:57
SPEAKER_01: the only way to distinguish yourself is customer service and expertise,
30:02
SPEAKER_01: actual implementation,
30:03
SPEAKER_01: because the drafting days are over.
30:07
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
30:08
SPEAKER_00: Then I'm so glad you said that.
30:09
Cause I was thinking about that earlier today and I'm trying to
30:11
remember why,
30:11
SPEAKER_00: but like customer service is like,
30:14
SPEAKER_00: like half of marketing because like good service leads to more referrals.
30:20
SPEAKER_00: It also applies to what happens at intake.
30:22
SPEAKER_00: I could go on and on.
30:24
SPEAKER_00: And I think, I mean, you're totally right.
30:26
SPEAKER_00: I think,
30:27
SPEAKER_00: and for me,
30:27
SPEAKER_00: where I sit,
30:28
sometimes where I see lawyers going wrong with AI is we reach
30:32
for the thing,
30:33
SPEAKER_00: like
30:36
SPEAKER_00: like AI video or like an image generator,
30:41
SPEAKER_00: which are really good,
30:42
SPEAKER_00: but like are really just like one part of what we can do with AI.
30:46
Like you and I have just talked about like a whole bunch of
30:48
like AI features that
30:50
SPEAKER_00: are hecka useful,
30:52
SPEAKER_00: huge time savers.
30:54
SPEAKER_00: And a lot more efficient than like some of the AI avatars I see crop at.
30:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry, like I hate to dig out anyone, but like those kind of fuck me.
31:02
SPEAKER_00: But there's so much use for AI and like it's transformed my life.
31:06
SPEAKER_00: I couldn't run my company the way I run it without AI tools.
31:11
SPEAKER_00: I am like blessed that I actually,
31:13
SPEAKER_00: I opened up my company in 2022,
31:15
SPEAKER_00: like seven months prior to ChatGPT being released.
31:19
And Sharp Cookie before ChadGBT and Sharp Cookie after was just
31:23
different companies
31:24
SPEAKER_00: because I was just able to automate so much more.
31:26
SPEAKER_00: Well, we're coming up on the end of our slot of time.
31:30
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to keep telling too long.
31:31
SPEAKER_00: So my traditional last two questions,
31:34
was there anything that we didn't end up talking about that
31:36
you're hoping we talk
31:37
SPEAKER_00: about?
31:40
SPEAKER_01: I don't think so.
31:40
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: It was just this wide ranging conversation.
31:43
SPEAKER_01: I think it's great.
31:44
SPEAKER_01: And anytime I can dive into the AI world, I'm a happy guy.
31:47
SPEAKER_01: So I think I really enjoyed it.
31:49
SPEAKER_01: It was good.
31:52
SPEAKER_00: I'm chatty.
31:52
SPEAKER_00: I can talk about marketing and AI all day.
31:54
SPEAKER_00: Trust me.
31:55
SPEAKER_00: And where do you want people to go learn more about you,
31:58
SPEAKER_00: look you up,
31:59
SPEAKER_00: follow you and all that good stuff?
32:01
SPEAKER_01: Sure, absolutely.
32:02
SPEAKER_01: So really two places.
32:03
SPEAKER_01: If you go to pzlaw.com, that's my website for Park Ziegler.
32:07
So if you're interested in the cybersecurity stuff,
32:09
again,
32:09
I have some free guides.
32:10
SPEAKER_01: I'm always happy to provide some free information, education too.
32:13
And again,
32:14
it's national,
32:14
so it's not state dependent for that kind of thing.
32:17
SPEAKER_01: If you go to pzlaw.com, that's our law firm.
32:20
SPEAKER_01: And then my coaching company is called The Motivated Lawyer.
32:23
SPEAKER_01: Motivate's an acronym.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: I sort of touch on all aspects of law firm ownership,
32:26
SPEAKER_01: including tech AI,
32:28
SPEAKER_01: marketing,
32:29
SPEAKER_01: which is visibility,
32:30
SPEAKER_01: all sorts of things.
32:31
But if you go to themotivatedlawyer.com,
32:34
right now it's just a newsletter signup.
32:35
SPEAKER_01: So I have some one-on-one clients,
32:37
but I'm launching the official launch of the companies later
32:39
this month by the end
32:40
SPEAKER_01: of December of 2025.
32:42
SPEAKER_01: But I have a newsletter I sent out every Tuesday.
32:44
SPEAKER_01: So it's a free email newsletter.
32:45
SPEAKER_01: I talk about one of the principles about law firm ownership.
32:48
SPEAKER_01: I also talk about AI news, recent AI news of the last week.
32:52
SPEAKER_01: And then I have one practical AI tip every week.
32:54
SPEAKER_01: So it's a free newsletter.
32:55
SPEAKER_01: Sign up.
32:56
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure there'll be something in there that will be of use to you.
32:59
And then you'll start to hear about other stuff that I'm doing
33:01
because I'm really
33:02
passionate about helping lawyers figure their life out when it
33:04
comes to running
33:04
SPEAKER_01: their law firm.
33:07
SPEAKER_00: Recently, I've actually made it a habit to read.
33:09
SPEAKER_00: I have two email newsletters that I read, like actually in my email.
33:13
SPEAKER_00: One of them is Arnold Schwarzenegger's e-newsletter for some reason.
33:17
SPEAKER_00: Don't ask me why, but I follow that guy.
33:19
And then it's your newsletter,
33:20
which I think I just recently started getting.
33:23
SPEAKER_00: So
33:23
SPEAKER_00: Go check it out.
33:25
SPEAKER_00: Sign up.
33:26
SPEAKER_00: Definitely love following Kellum.
33:27
SPEAKER_00: He knows his stuff.
33:28
SPEAKER_00: There are not too many technical lawyers in this space.
33:31
SPEAKER_00: So it's always nice to talk with somebody who gets that.
33:34
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, thank you so much for being on the show.
33:37
We'll probably have to talk again sometime soon because I love
33:39
the tech stuff.
33:40
SPEAKER_00: And thank you so much.
33:42
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for being a guest.
33:43
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me, Tiffany.
33:44
SPEAKER_01: It was a pleasure.