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Top Industrial Real Estate Trends for 2025 and Beyond · Industrial Advisors

• 0:00
  It's been really awesome to watch your career and just where it started and,
• 0:05
  and just being the, such an incredible developer now and doing things that,
• 0:10
  that no one else has, you know, really been willing, able, and able to do.
• 0:14
  Right.
• 0:14
  And you, you've done it, you know, and it's been awesome to see.
• 0:17
  You had so much success.
• 0:33
  Welcome to our Industrial Advisors podcast.
• 0:36
  You have Bill Condon and Matt McGregor and we have a great guest with us today.
• 0:39
  Justin Carlucci, who is a partner at Bridge Industrial and
• 0:45
  has been as active as anyone.
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  Over the last five years in, in the development side, lots of
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  really cool projects going on.
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  So appreciate you, uh, you joining us.
• 0:54
  Yeah.
• 0:54
  Thank you very much for having me, both of you.
• 0:56
  I really appreciate it.
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  It's been a while since I've been in this office.
• 0:58
  We used to meet here like every week.
• 1:00
  Yes.
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  In that conference room down there and just press you on
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  leasing all of our product.
• 1:05
  Hey, I remember one that we had that we, like, we had so much
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  square footage with you guys.
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  Totally.
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  And we had one like small vacancy.
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  Yeah.
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  It was, was 13,000 square feet or something.
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  Yeah.
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  13,000 feet.
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  And you came in and like put a little pressure on and we got a lease, man.
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  We we did it.
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  Dude.
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  Do you remember Phil?
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  How Well that's why we put the pressure on.
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  Yeah.
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  Well, yeah.
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  'cause they, so the CEO for the listener, CEO of this very large industrial company.
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  Yeah.
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  The biggest like us publicly traded reach.
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  Yeah.
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  He would not think that he would know of like a 13,000 footer.
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  Totally.
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  He knew and he guys were millions and millions of square foot.
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  We get invited to this conference, your conference once a year
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  at, at, uh, Vail Vail Vale.
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  Yep.
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  And, uh.
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  Boy, he spotted me from across the room.
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  We're having lunch.
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  Oh yeah.
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  Here comes Phil.
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  He knows your vacancy.
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  He is like, yeah.
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  Walks right to me.
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  McGregor.
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  Why?
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  Why is that still vacant?
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  Right?
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  Oh yeah.
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  And Tony Liden, you remember him?
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  Mm-hmm.
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  You remember him in Arizona.
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  He was sitting on a much bigger vacancy longer than mine.
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  I said, Tony's got the a hundred thousand footer vacant.
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  So he starts yelling at Tony and he is like, Tony's like.
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  Why'd you throw me under the bus?
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  Yeah.
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  But it was amazing how well he knew those assets.
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  Totally.
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  And you ended up leasing it at fantastic rates, if I remember right.
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  It was like a time when, you know, I think maybe we got a 95 cent
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  rate at a time that everything else was in the eighties or something.
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  And it was right.
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  We were holding on for the right deal.
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  Yeah, that's exactly remember remember who leased it?
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  Yeah.
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  Finn with Anton is bakery or whatever.
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  They're still there.
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  Yeah, they changed their name.
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  I drove by there the other day.
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  But same thing, like gluten-free bakery or whatever.
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  So tell us about, you've built just some fantastic and really
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  incredible buildings, uh, sites.
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  Tell us what you have going on right now and some of the projects
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  you're most excited about that you have going on right now.
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  Yeah, so right now we have, it's probably about 5 million square
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  feet or so That's in Washington state that's been delivered or is.
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  Under construction, um, and been recently delivered.
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  So we have a million square feet at our I five Seattle project.
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  That's the one in Milton.
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  Used to be a gravel pit.
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  Yeah.
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  Right next to wild waves.
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  Totally.
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  Yeah.
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  Yep.
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  So you can, you know, you can, you can cool off on those hot summer
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  days open house and, oh, hey.
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  Thanks.
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  Thanks.
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  Yeah, that was, uh, our team did a fantastic job.
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  Fantastic planning that and even the real.
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  Hawaiian lays that were flown in from Hawaii that morning.
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  Like who, who even thought of that shirts?
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  Yes, totally.
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  But, uh, so we got that project.
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  We have another two and a half million square feet being built down
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  in Tacoma, about a mile from I five, you know, three miles from the port.
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  We have.
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  300,000 square feet.
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  Actually, we're close to leasing.
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  The rest of it's two buildings in ctac.
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  We're close to leasing the rest of one of the buildings now at another
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  record setting lease rate, and that's after just signing a lease.
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  That was another record setting lease rate on the rest of that building.
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  I dunno, three weeks ago or something, a month ago.
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  We have 180,000 square feet in Kent that we're building.
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  We have 600,000 square feet in Vancouver, Washington that we just completed.
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  And then we're just leasing up the rest of our 500,000 square feet up in Everett.
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  So, good amount of projects.
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  Yeah.
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  So, so in total, I mean, there's no question you're the number one
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  developer out there over the last several years, but right now your
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  dominance in square footage has to be like 75% of the construction going on.
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  Yeah, I, somebody told me the other day when they ran the numbers, we were
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  70% of the product being delivered.
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  Yeah.
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  And the thing I love about that is, you know, that's on a total.
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  Square footage basis.
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  But the thing I love about that, if you go through each individual project,
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  they're unique in very specific ways.
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  So like the Tacoma 2 million project in I five Seattle, all big box.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  At a time when there's little to no big box being delivered or even in the
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  pipeline that's gonna be delivered soon.
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  So you kind of got a little bit of a, a competitive advantage I'll say.
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  On that product.
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  And then you have like CTAC or Kent, both of these are, when's the last time
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  that brand new state-of-the-art product was delivered in core Submarkets.
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  Like that?
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  Yeah.
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  And even our Vancouver building, Vancouver, Washington, has been
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  performing phenomenally thanks in part to the demise of Portland.
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  So everyone wants to move to Washington State and wants to
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  move to kind of that little.
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  Suburb area where there's no income tax and other, other benefits for
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  businesses and it's just less crime and homelessness and drugs and all that stuff.
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  So we, you know, we were there, we were talking baseball before the,
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  we started jumping on here and we were there for a state tournament.
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  Yeah.
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  And we all stayed.
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  It was in Vancouver.
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  Yeah.
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  And we stayed on the Vancouver side, like on the water uhhuh and
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  that there's a lot of really cool.
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  Things happening in Vancouver.
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  Totally.
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  Yeah.
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  That area is really cool.
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  Yeah, the, the waterfront, so that's just, I was just talking
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  about our industrial project.
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  There are a couple other industrial projects there that have done really
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  well, well too, and are being delivered.
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  But that waterfront stuff, there's a bunch of mixed use stuff
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  that's being planned or built.
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  On the waterfronts that are really, really nice.
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  So you, you, you got a ton of stuff going on now.
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  What are you looking for, because obviously it takes a couple
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  years to get this stuff going.
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  Totally.
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  What's, what's in the acquisition realm for you?
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  Yeah, so any development site bigger than probably four, four
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  and a half acres, uh, between.
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  F Frederickson, Lacey and Everett.
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  And then that's pretty much the sweet spot.
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  I mean, and we're looking for, you know, it could be big
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  sites, it could be small sites.
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  It does, it doesn't matter to us as long as it's well located
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  within that geographic area.
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  And so now's the time to start building that pipeline back up.
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  Yeah.
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  Given the vacancy in different size ranges, what would be the kind of
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  the perfect size building right now if you're chasing something?
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  So I like kind of two sub-sectors when it comes to size.
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  So bigger stuff like 250, 300,000 square feet are bigger.
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  I really, really like.
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  And then small stuff.
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  50,000 square feet.
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  If you could convince a developer to build stuff that's smaller than 50,000
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  square feet, or maybe it's an 80 broken up into a bunch of 15 in their
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  twenties, that stuff would kill it.
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  There's just so many tenants in those size ranges and nobody's
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  building it because it takes us.
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  You know, just as much work to build a big site as it does a small one.
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  And so might as well spend the time on the big sites.
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  We've said the same thing, that if you could go, go build 120 in Kent or
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  Tukwila or Rent, make it a 4, 5, 6, 10 building, totally performs unstoppable.
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  Yeah.
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  In fact, we're selling a vacant building right now.
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  It's one 30 that has been a single tenant building its entire life.
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  Yep.
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  And everybody that's looking at is.
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  Chopping it up.
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  Yep.
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  That, that would be unstoppable.
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  Well, link did a great job.
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  They had a building on the, I think it was two 12th Business Park that they
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  redeveloped or maybe, maybe they tore down a building or they had an extra piece of
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  land or something built like an 80 with a bunch of tens to 20,000 square foot.
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  Spaces.
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  Yeah.
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  And the rents were about a dollar 50.
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  Shell rents at a time that everyone else was doing a buck 25.
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  They did.
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  Great product.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  That's great though, that you, I mean, you're four, four acres up to whatever.
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  Totally.
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  You know, in that, in that wide, you know, range of areas, it's awesome.
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  Yep.
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  And with what you're looking for in those areas, what would you say are the
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  biggest challenges to development today?
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  From financing to new regulations on what you're having to do.
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  On those projects, what are the big challenges?
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  Yeah, so there the two things that stick out the most.
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  Sort of three, I mean, the second one sort of kind of subsets,
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  but the first one is financing.
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  Getting equity excited about a deal today.
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  Is a lot more difficult than it than it's ever been in the last eight
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  years that I've been in the business With that being said, those were the
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  greatest eight years of all time, right?
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  So it's not really like the most average bar to compare it to.
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  So that's, that's a little tough.
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  And the second thing is around regulation.
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  So there's two things.
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  One, entitlements.
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  Those are a lot more difficult these days, although.
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  The sentiment seems to be flipping with a lot of the
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  municipalities for a little while.
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  They're kind of at the peak of the market.
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  Maybe two, three years ago, there was a lot of resistance, whether it was
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  community groups or just the jurisdictions in general, didn't like industrial.
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  They wanted every other type of real estate, but industrial, that sentiment
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  has seemed to flip, and I don't know if it's because they're anticipating where
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  they see the decline in development and therefore decline in fees.
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  For their municipalities.
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  I don't know if maybe they've just come around to the versatility of industrial,
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  how it can be used for everything from retail to r and d, to office to warehouse
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  and distribution and manufacturing.
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  But either way, that that is still a little bit of a challenge.
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  The other thing is energy code.
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  So the new international building code just in the last few months
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  has been started to be adopted.
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  The energy code portions have started to be adopted by some jurisdictions, so it
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  feels like that's on the precipice of.
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  Being probably adopted by most, and that requires, instead of heating
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  your warehouse with gas, now it's electricity, which is, you know,
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  it's really difficult to get enough power for your building as it is.
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  That's surprisingly we switch.
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  Oh yeah.
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  Now, now you need two or three times the amount of power and, and power's
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  more limited than it's, yeah, totally.
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  Than it's ever been.
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  Yeah.
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  So that's gonna be difficult.
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  And then it adds another five or six bucks of cost to your construction.
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  So any cost savings that may occur because of the slowdown has just been
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  eaten up by the new energy code stuff.
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  But it's not easy.
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  And the sites that are left are generally, you know, harder sites
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  than they were yesterday, you know?
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  Oh, to totally.
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  Yeah.
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  Um, so we, we know what's.
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  In the pipeline for the rest of 2025.
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  So as you look at your crystal ball 26, 27, where do you see this, the,
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  the, the development world going?
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  First and foremost, I'm very bullish on industrial in general, more so than just
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  about any other type of real estate.
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  And that's not because I'm in it, it's because at its core real estate is
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  just walls in a roof over a business.
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  Commercial real estate is just walls in a roof over a business, and the
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  cheapest way to do that is industrial.
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  You can see from, let's say, what's happening in Redmond.
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  All those industrial buildings that were distribution or manufacturing
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  are now r and d. Their office with e-commerce industrial has now
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  replaced retail in a lot of ways.
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  So there's every different way that you can use an industrial building
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  aside from, you know, live in it.
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  And so for those reasons, I think the future of industrials.
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  Great for 26, 27.
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  I'm hopeful that as rates start to come down, hopefully by the end of this
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  year and then into next year, that that will be kind of the kick in the pants.
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  Everybody needs to finally have enough conviction to, to get going again.
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  Yeah.
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  But ultimately, you know, ultimately time will tell.
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  Yeah.
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  And demand's gonna drive development, right?
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  Correct.
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah, yeah.
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  And in our market, what are your favorite markets?
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  Like what's.
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  Traditionally, like for maybe redevelopment.
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  And what are your new favorite markets As far as expansion markets go, although I
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  would accept, you know, any of the sites within that geographic parameter that I
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  mentioned before, there are some that are right now, I think stronger than others.
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  Everett is one that comes to mind and I think that's largely driven
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  by the advanced manufacturing and the talent base there.
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  And you know, all these, whether it's advanced energy companies or space
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  exploration kind of companies, they all go to that area to pick off the talent.
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  Yeah.
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  And the engineers from Boeing and all these other groups.
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  And so, you know, that's kind of the area that they come into plus.
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  There's very little land left in Everett.
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  And so if you want to be in the north end submarket and you could
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  get something there, a lot of people would, especially given that the next
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  closest place is, you know, it's not like in the Kent Valley where you drive
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  five minutes further south and there's another pocket you, you're going 15.
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  Yeah, 15, 20 minutes at least to get through kind of Northern
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  Everett into Marysville, Arlington.
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  Yeah.
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  And so I think the demand's gonna be great in Everett.
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  I really, really like Everett.
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  And then Kent's always gonna do well, especially if you deliver
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  brand new state ofthe art products.
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  Totally.
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  It always sets records to perform with, yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  Ctac, I'm sure.
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  Oh yeah.
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  Yep.
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  All that stuff.
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  Renton, Kent, ctac, Tukwila, maybe even any of those close in.
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  Submarkets, I think will do do well.
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  But what about down way down south?
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  So Vancouver, Washington, or Vancouver, yeah.
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  That's about, that's as south as it gets.
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  Uh, that's in a different market.
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  That is like a Portland market.
• 13:26
  Yes, that's exactly it.
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  Yep.
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  So I think or Portland guys cover that.
• 13:29
  Yes, correct.
• 13:30
  Yep.
• 13:30
  And with every other shop, same thing.
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  Maybe we should look at that.
• 13:33
  You know, totally, well, there's land that, but they, they kind of are ahead
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  of, I shouldn't say ahead of the curve.
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  So people started developing there and then they put a moratorium on
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  industrial and I don't know if that's still there or not, but that was kind
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  of one of those pushbacks, which.
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  All of these obstructions in a way only make the buildings
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  and everything more valuable.
• 13:53
  Mm-hmm.
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  Because the businesses still need, and the population still needs
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  its goods and Yeah, that's right.
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  So, and if you can figure out a solution, then you have now a
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  competitive advantage that others don't.
• 14:05
  And so I, I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing, it's a pain in the butt,
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  but it's only gonna make you better.
• 14:10
  Yeah.
• 14:10
  It, yeah.
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  Supply constrain constraints.
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  Um, so what do you think about.
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  Uh, further south, like south of Frederickson, I generally
• 14:20
  like to stay in the core.
• 14:21
  Yeah.
• 14:21
  You know, um, in those markets that you already outlined.
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  Yeah.
• 14:25
  I I think that even in a slow market, you can go find a way to do a deal and
• 14:31
  even if it's below the rent that, that you want, but as you get into some
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  of those secondary markets, sometimes you just don't get a shot at a deal.
• 14:39
  Totally.
• 14:40
  Like you're not getting any tour activity in the valley.
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  And the core.
• 14:43
  You are, and you can just do an ugly deal if you wanna lease a space.
• 14:46
  Yep.
• 14:47
  I'd still rather have a billion Sumner than anywhere.
• 14:50
  Yeah.
• 14:50
  Sumner love Sumner.
• 14:51
  Yeah.
• 14:51
  Sumner is awesome.
• 14:53
  Yeah.
• 14:53
  Well, we have to, you've been very consistent.
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  You've been very consistent on Sumner for a long time.
• 14:58
  Yeah, and it's paid off.
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  Sumner's great.
• 15:00
  I mean, it continues to get leased out.
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  Everything that's built there continues to get leased up and
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  it's a. Especially once they finish the 1 6 7 expansion into the port.
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  That feels like that would be huge.
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  Now we know the pace of those projects.
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  Yeah.
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  Can be, you know, glacial.
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  But when that happens, that could be a big game changer to make Sumner
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  even better and just speed up all the markets getting into the port.
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  Totally right.
• 15:24
  Yeah.
• 15:25
  Yeah.
• 15:25
  I was down there last week touring a client through and.
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  It's a little congested down there.
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  In the port.
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  In the port.
• 15:31
  Oh, totally.
• 15:32
  It's, it's kind of awful.
• 15:33
  And that interchange, uh, in Fife 54th.
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  54th be the worst.
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  It's the worst interchange on all of life.
• 15:39
  Well, not to mention you, you know, I'm good for like three
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  traffic tickets a year in Fife.
• 15:44
  Oh yeah.
• 15:44
  You know, because they have cameras everywhere.
• 15:46
  Oh, yeah.
• 15:47
  Completely uhhuh.
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  Or if you're in like the right, you know, no right turn and whatever.
• 15:53
  Speaking of 54th, how does the Poodle dog survive?
• 15:56
  Dude, I've never eaten there once.
• 15:58
  Yeah.
• 15:58
  Have you?
• 15:59
  I've never been to the poodle.
• 16:00
  I don't think I've actually ever eaten there.
• 16:02
  I've used a restroom a few times.
• 16:03
  Yeah.
• 16:03
  I think I, I think I might be in that category.
• 16:05
  I feel like I've been there, but I don't feel like I've eaten there.
• 16:09
  Yeah.
• 16:09
  How does it survive?
• 16:10
  Yeah, the poodle dog.
• 16:12
  The poodle dog, yeah.
• 16:13
  All right, so you've built millions and millions of square footage over the years.
• 16:17
  What's your favorite project that you've done?
• 16:19
  And they're like your kids.
• 16:21
  You love 'em all right?
• 16:21
  Like kind of, yeah.
• 16:22
  There's like three that come to mind that I really give us all
• 16:26
  three, like, okay, first one is.
• 16:30
  White River Corporate Park, the first one we, we did together.
• 16:33
  Yes.
• 16:33
  And, and here's why.
• 16:34
  Yes.
• 16:35
  And, and it's not, you know, 'cause I happen to be talking to you.
• 16:37
  Yeah.
• 16:37
  It's, it's my first project ever.
• 16:39
  Yeah.
• 16:40
  It was a big one.
• 16:41
  Yes.
• 16:41
  Yeah.
• 16:42
  It didn't necessarily go terribly well.
• 16:43
  So it was really exciting and you learned a ton about construction.
• 16:47
  I don't know if you guys remember, but like at one point we had to take boats.
• 16:52
  From the job trailer to the actual buildings because there
• 16:57
  was so much flooding on site.
• 16:59
  I did not know that.
• 17:00
  That it was complete.
• 17:01
  Yes, I don't, so we had these row robots.
• 17:03
  I remember it was 650,000 cub yards are filled.
• 17:05
  Okay.
• 17:06
  So then also the biggest spec building ever built at the time.
• 17:10
  Yeah.
• 17:10
  Six 50.
• 17:10
  Yeah.
• 17:11
  Yep.
• 17:11
  And probably my.
• 17:13
  One of my favorite, if not my favorite building of all time,
• 17:16
  the 60,000 with a ton of trailer.
• 17:18
  That's a great building, dude.
• 17:19
  That unstoppable.
• 17:20
  Yeah.
• 17:21
  Yeah.
• 17:21
  Gazillion doors.
• 17:22
  Yeah.
• 17:22
  Yes.
• 17:23
  So like, so that's definitely in the running.
• 17:26
  Yeah.
• 17:26
  And the amount of mud on that site.
• 17:28
  It was just awful from a dirt work perspective.
• 17:30
  It was, yeah, it was terrible.
• 17:32
  That was a great product, but at the same time, it was really interesting.
• 17:35
  All that being said, it moved pretty quick.
• 17:38
  Yeah.
• 17:38
  I mean that wasn't, oh, totally.
• 17:39
  Well, remember look stuff.
• 17:40
  Remember the first, first big deal we did there?
• 17:42
  Do you guys remember how that went down?
• 17:44
  We had another tenant that we were negotiating.
• 17:46
  Was that LKQ?
• 17:47
  No.
• 17:48
  What was the first one?
• 17:48
  Yes, they came in at least 300, but I remember that.
• 17:51
  But we were negotiating with another tenant Yeah.
• 17:53
  For a long time.
• 17:55
  And that tenant kept taking longer and longer and, and then these guys came in
• 17:59
  and we were about to ink the other deal.
• 18:01
  We're getting close.
• 18:02
  Yep.
• 18:03
  That's right.
• 18:03
  And they said, we'll sign a lease.
• 18:05
  Oh, I do remember this.
• 18:06
  That's right.
• 18:06
  Yes.
• 18:07
  Sign a lease in one week if you're willing.
• 18:08
  And we said, alright, and Beth speak, went to work.
• 18:11
  Here's the, here's the rate, here's the terms.
• 18:13
  Yeah.
• 18:14
  Here's the deadline for I do remember.
• 18:15
  At least fully executed.
• 18:17
  Yeah.
• 18:17
  Yes.
• 18:18
  And they did.
• 18:18
  I do remember this.
• 18:19
  Yeah.
• 18:19
  They did it.
• 18:20
  And uh, we kicked that one off.
• 18:21
  And who had to call the other broker?
• 18:23
  Well, Patrick did.
• 18:25
  Uh, Patrick.
• 18:25
  Patrick Gemma.
• 18:26
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 18:28
  We made him do it.
• 18:28
  Yeah.
• 18:29
  Yeah, totally.
• 18:30
  That was also why I was like, my favorite because I was so new that
• 18:34
  like I had no responsibility and yeah.
• 18:36
  Nobody, so it was like, yeah, that's so funny.
• 18:38
  You just get to watch.
• 18:39
  All this mayhem occur and like we're just the leasing brokers we get, we
• 18:43
  went whatever the ownership wants.
• 18:45
  Yeah, totally, totally.
• 18:46
  That was a great project.
• 18:47
  Yeah, yeah.
• 18:48
  Yeah.
• 18:49
  So that was probably, that was one of my favorites.
• 18:51
  For all those reasons, I five Seattle was.
• 18:55
  Up there too.
• 18:56
  And the reason being is it was the first deal that really I ever did on my own.
• 19:05
  Um, yeah.
• 19:06
  With Bridge.
• 19:06
  Yep.
• 19:07
  Total square footage is, it's 2 million square feet.
• 19:09
  Yes.
• 19:09
  And so, and then you killed it.
• 19:11
  Yep.
• 19:11
  And then it's also the biggest spec building ever built.
• 19:14
  So be the old record, you know, and then the rate was fantastic.
• 19:18
  Yeah.
• 19:18
  And then the.
• 19:18
  The sellers, it was a complicated deal.
• 19:21
  We had like part lease, part sale.
• 19:23
  There was all these other things.
• 19:25
  You, you know, you're working with the sellers.
• 19:26
  The, there's an 84-year-old dad.
• 19:28
  There's kids, there's brothers, there's, and.
• 19:32
  I loved it.
• 19:33
  We spent so much time in the boardroom hanging out with them.
• 19:35
  I became good friends with them.
• 19:36
  I really liked them as people felt like we were helping them, they were helping us.
• 19:41
  It was, it was fantastic.
• 19:42
  So I liked that project for that reason.
• 19:44
  And then Tacoma 2 million was probably the biggest learning experience,
• 19:49
  just with all the difficulty with entitlements and pushback from community.
• 19:55
  And also the city didn't want to get involved, so they took
• 19:58
  a long time to do things.
• 20:00
  And it was just a. Really complicated deal.
• 20:03
  Lot of contamination.
• 20:04
  It was a federal Superfund site.
• 20:05
  So, and then the biggest, you know, biggest project I've ever
• 20:08
  been involved in at two and a half million square feet total.
• 20:11
  So for those reasons, I, those are pretty good projects for sure.
• 20:14
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 20:16
  It's hard to pick like kids though.
• 20:17
  You, you know, it's hard to pick like this.
• 20:19
  Well, unlike the kid situation, you just don't wanna say it out loud.
• 20:22
  You still got a favorite one.
• 20:24
  That's good.
• 20:24
  And with this case, there really is three that I like for just different reasons.
• 20:28
  Yeah.
• 20:29
  No, that's awesome.
• 20:30
  Well, it's been really awesome to watch your career and just where it started
• 20:35
  and, and just being the such a incredible developer now and doing things that.
• 20:41
  That no one else has, you know, really been willing, able, and able to do.
• 20:45
  Right.
• 20:45
  And you, you've done it, you know, and it's been awesome to see.
• 20:48
  You had so much success, so congratulations to you and
• 20:50
  appreciate you jumping on with us.
• 20:52
  Yeah.
• 20:52
  And I'll just say, you know, working with you through the years, you said it
• 20:55
  earlier, you just, you're transparent and honest and that, I think just your
• 20:59
  personality and those, those rules that guide you, has armed you well
• 21:04
  to become the number one developer.
• 21:06
  You're, you're, you're great to deal with and I'm not surprised you're.
• 21:09
  At the top of the heap now.
• 21:10
  Yeah.
• 21:10
  Well, thank, thank you.
• 21:12
  I appreciate that.
• 21:12
  I was hoping it would pay off, but you never know.
• 21:16
  Awesome.
• 21:16
  I like your optimism too.
• 21:17
  You know, like that's, that's important, right?
• 21:19
  As you better, you better have it if you're a developer.
• 21:22
  Totally.
• 21:22
  You can.
• 21:22
  You can find, I mean, for every deal we go through, for every a hundred
• 21:27
  reasons not to do a deal, there's only like one to do it, and so you just
• 21:31
  gotta find, it's really hard to find the good reasons to do deals sometimes.
• 21:36
  Um, but those are what really matters.
• 21:38
  Your, your job is to solve all those a hundred problems, let's say.
• 21:43
  Yeah.
• 21:43
  But like, you gotta be, you gotta be optimistic, you gotta find
• 21:45
  the reasons to do something.
• 21:47
  Otherwise you just get wrapped around the axle and all the risks and you do
• 21:51
  nothing and that doesn't help anybody.
• 21:52
  No.
• 21:52
  So, no, that's right.
• 21:54
  Well, it's worked well, so Yeah.
• 21:55
  Yeah.
• 21:55
  Uh, we'll do it again soon.
• 21:57
  So appreciate that.
• 21:58
  Yeah.
• 21:58
  Thank you both for having me, for being on the show again.
• 22:00
  Thank you.
• 22:00
  Yeah.
• 22:01
  I really appreciate it.
• 22:01
  Wrap.