Latest / #Divorce: Support before, during and after with Sarah-Jane / season 4 Episode 12 Relationship Coaching: Breaking Free From Old Dynamics

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season 4 Episode 12 Relationship Coaching: Breaking Free From Old Dynamics · #Divorce: Support before, during and after with Sarah-Jane

0:00
Welcome to Hashtag Divorce Support before, during and
0:04
after. I'm Sarah Jane Testel, your
0:06
host. I'm a French qualified family
0:08
lawyer, a family mediator and a lawyer supervisor.
0:13
This podcast is here to support you through separation or
0:17
divorce and to help you rebuild yourself with insight on law,
0:23
well-being, parenting, finances, and the emotional realities of
0:27
this life transition. Divorce isn't just about ending.
0:32
It's also a new beginning, and you don't have to go through it
0:35
alone. Today's episode is about
0:40
relationships and how the way we relate to ourselves affects
0:45
every relationship we have. I am joined by Erica Mamai, Auk
0:51
based Relationship Coach, who supports couples and individuals
0:56
who feel stuck in the same patterns and want healthier and
1:00
more secure connections. Erica helps people understand
1:04
how habits like people pleasing, avoiding conflict, taking too
1:09
much responsibility, or ignoring their own needs often come from
1:14
earlier experiences and how these patterns can quietly
1:19
damage relationships over time. In this conversation, we'll talk
1:24
about why couples keep having the same arguments, what's
1:27
really happening underneath those conflicts, and how working
1:32
on yourself can change the way you show up in relationships.
1:37
So, Iriga, thank you for joining us today.
1:40
Could you start by telling us a little bit about yourself and
1:44
the work you do? Thank you so much for having me,
1:47
Sarah Jane. I'm a relationship coach.
1:50
I love doing what I do because I have a felt experience of what
1:56
it's like to grow up in a chaotic family environment where
2:04
I believe people loved each other, AKA my parents did love
2:08
each other, but they ended up fighting for divorce when I was
2:12
seven years old. And I lived the experience of
2:16
feeling quite secure for the first seven years of my life.
2:20
And then to feel quite literally sort of catapulted into a place
2:25
of chaos, of disconnection, confusion that had me feel
2:32
really disconnected from my parents and the people in my
2:35
world. I think I suffered a lot as a
2:37
child without realizing I was, you know, when you're a child,
2:40
you sort of realize things later in time as you put the puzzle
2:44
pieces together and you recognize that your parents are
2:49
just human beings and they they did the best with what they had
2:53
at the time. And yet the relational choices
2:56
had an impact on me growing up and struggled with really
3:00
defining what is a healthy relationship for me or even
3:04
just, you know, being aware that question is important.
3:07
Nobody asks us how do I want to feel in a relationship?
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How do I want to show up for people and really led me on a
3:17
path to feel really disconnected from myself, insecure.
3:21
Over the course of my 20s, I discovered a healing path which
3:27
led me to really discover those insecurities and unpack my
3:32
limiting beliefs and all of the things that we hear in the self
3:35
development world to be important.
3:38
But what really changed for me has been to feel the possibility
3:45
that relationships are the most healing path available to us,
3:51
where we are still, you know, ourselves, but we have an
3:55
opportunity to grow within that dynamic and to uncover more of
3:59
the authentic parts of us that are yearning to be, to be
4:03
expressed right, that often we are conditioned to suppress.
4:07
And so my work revolves very much around my own personal
4:10
experience. I am passionate about supporting
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families, mostly couples, whether they already have a
4:17
family, whether they want to have a family, but they
4:20
recognize that there is friction, there is disconnection
4:23
taking place, more than they would like to experience.
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I support them in creating a solid foundation that helps them
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move often from a place of conflict and this connection to
4:34
1 of collaboration and mutual understanding.
4:38
And that process is just so beautiful and reaching because
4:43
it is one that we are not really exposed to the possibility of
4:47
healing in relationship. And so, yeah, that's in a
4:51
nutshell, sort of who I am and why I'm doing what I'm doing
4:56
today. Well, thank you because we
4:59
really understand where you're coming from.
5:02
And I think in the work, the line of work you do, it's really
5:05
important to trust the person you're going to work with.
5:10
It's important to understand how you got to where you are.
5:15
You often say that the quality of your, the relationships
5:18
depend on how deeply we're willing to go within ourselves.
5:22
What does it mean in practice? Well, I think what that means in
5:26
practice is the willingness to know who we truly are and get
5:35
curious about what stops us from getting what we want, especially
5:41
in relationship. We'll determine how much we can
5:45
grow in a relational dynamic before we can focus on someone
5:49
else and giving or taking and receiving from someone.
5:53
We really have to look at our intentions.
5:56
What makes me want to be with this person?
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How is it that maybe I am struggling to find my person?
6:03
What is it that I need to look about myself?
6:07
You know, what is the relational blueprint I come with as an
6:12
adult that determines how I show up with people?
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Which parts of me do I need to acknowledge so that I don't
6:22
repeat, you know, history or previous relational injuries,
6:26
how I like to call them. Us as individuals are the most
6:30
important thing to begin with when we enter a relational space
6:36
or a partnership because we have to be really clear about what we
6:42
need and want from a relationship.
6:45
So we can be expressive in a way that honours our individuality,
6:50
but it also respects the other person and their values, right?
6:54
What are my values? Do I understand what helps me
6:58
feel connected to people or do I just seek connection because I
7:04
fear being alone? Understanding our individuality
7:07
and what makes us who we are and also what is our vision for
7:12
where we want to go is going to help us attract the right
7:16
people. But also communicate with them
7:19
in an honest way so they can feel they can trust us and that
7:24
we are able and capable to be transparent with them.
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And that self-awareness and ownership is the first step I
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always advocate for and teach couples to lean into.
7:39
We can avoid our fear and our insecurities all we want, but
7:43
they will leak somewhere in our behavior and the way we connect
7:47
with people. The earlier we address our fears
7:49
and insecurities and own our vision and values, the more I
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think we'll have an authentic connection with anyone or just
7:58
with our intimate partners, you know?
7:59
So the depth to which you're able to go within yourself and
8:03
the more curiosity you can express about your past, where
8:08
you are and where you want to go will determine how well you
8:13
connect and relate to others as the foundation.
8:19
Yeah. Just to add to that, practically
8:22
what that means is being a seeker, you know, becoming a
8:27
relational expert of the relationship you have with
8:30
yourself. Curiosity, presence,
8:33
understanding your emotions, being curious about your past
8:36
and looking at how you are set up from early conditioning to
8:41
navigate relationships. And that presence and curiosity
8:45
and the willingness to take action to map your life so far
8:51
and then map your life, your life moving forward.
8:54
It's what I would recommend doing, just doing research on
8:56
yourself ultimately, and then share it and be in rooms where
9:00
people are open to receive you just as you are.
9:04
There are many experiences and tools to really deepen that
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connection to self. Really important.
9:11
If you're not curious about yourself, how can you be curious
9:14
about others? Correct.
9:16
What are the most common subconscious patterns you see
9:21
people bringing into relationships without realizing?
9:25
That's a really good question. There's so many.
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Let's put it this way. One quote that I would like to
9:31
mention is any form of communication is an expression
9:35
of a need. Considering that we can look at
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how we show up, the words we choose, the tone we use when we
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connect with others, what do they say about what we need?
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And often some of these unconscious patterns are all
9:55
based off of the fear that one of our needs will not be met.
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We fear not feeling safe, not feeling seen, not feeling heard.
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We fear speaking up our truth, so we sort of mold around the
10:10
needs of others instead to get our needs met.
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And we learn that certain ways of communicating function to
10:21
have needs met that maybe we haven't had met in the past.
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And these ways in which we communicate sometimes lead to
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blame and defend loops where we are protecting a part of our
10:33
identity from being seen from the other person by blaming and
10:40
defending against what they are trying to say to us.
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That blame and defend loop is a natural response that we had to
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develop probably growing up as a way of actually feeling seen.
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There is always this inner conflict that I've seen people
10:56
where I want to be seen and understood 100%.
11:00
But on the other side, to be seen is very vulnerable.
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That means that this person might not like what they find.
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So I'm going to unconsciously sabotage that part of me that
11:11
wants to be seen, but it's also fearful and actually get stuck
11:16
in this dynamics where the moment somebody moves towards
11:20
me, let's say, for example, with a criticism, when actually
11:23
somebody's trying to say, hey, I can see that maybe this is a
11:27
part of you that you're struggling with.
11:29
They might meet you in a place where they can see your
11:31
insecurities and they're trying to empathize with you, but
11:34
you're not used to that. You're used to being judged for
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that part of you and so you defend because you assume
11:41
ultimate automatically. Assumptions are one of those
11:43
patterns that are unconscious that keep from people
11:46
experiencing real connection. You know, you might assume this
11:50
person is just criticizing you and is not liking you because
11:53
this is what's happened for you in the past.
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So you naturally resort to blame and defend sort of way of
12:00
showing up against them rather than seeing they are there to
12:04
sort of help your growth and shedding light on this blind
12:07
spot that you have. So the blame and defend is quite
12:11
a natural one that I see across most couples.
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People, we know what that feels like, you know, to be blamed and
12:17
to blame and to feel the defense in someone else.
12:20
Many of us over function people please to feel worthy of
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attention. We overwork to receive love and
12:31
connection we want, but that doesn't really function for the
12:36
long run. They can serve you to get this
12:38
person to like you or value you and how much you do, but they
12:44
don't get to see who you are beneath that over functioning,
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which is somebody who's probably quite exhausted and maybe I'm
12:50
worthy of love, right? He feels they have to do things
12:54
in order to be loved, when actually if they were to remove
12:59
that mask and stop people pleasing, people might actually
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see them for who they are and in a more authentic way be able to
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connect to them in a real vulnerable space.
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The over functioning, the people pleasing, the blame and defend,
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it's really common. The assumptions are a killer,
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assuming that someone behaves a certain way.
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The antidote to that is a curiosity.
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When you get curious about why people behave the way they do,
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you get a clearer understanding of what they need and what you
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need to make that connection better.
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There's so much more I could add, probably go on, but I was
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talking about it. Can we talk about self
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abandonment? Saying yes when you mean no, not
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asking for help and suppressing needs.
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Why is it so common? What it's common because it's
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what's required from us growing up to be accepted and see this
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is not something that we can totally avoid nor we should.
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I think it's part of life because we are supposed to
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experience it when we become conscious that that's what we
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do. It's really important we track
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our way back to as to when did this began?
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When did I start abandoning myself and when?
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I often name the word self abandonment.
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People don't like that it sounds drastic as a word to use.
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I'm abandoning myself. It feels big for people because
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it's true. The hard truth we struggle to
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accept. This is a framework I use to
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help people see how they do this, so they can start to
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reconnect to that part of them that naturally was in survival,
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therefore decided unconsciously to self abandoned.
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When we arrive in this world, the moment we'll land in the
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arms of the first adult, we have the most pure version of who we
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are their most authentic version of.
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We don't remember this because our nervous system wasn't yet
15:00
evolved to the point of holding on to memories, but our nervous
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system is wired to know when it feels safe and when it doesn't.
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So as we arrive into this world, we naturally develop core
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relational needs. The first one being the need for
15:15
attachment. The need to physically be
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attached to a parent in order to survive, or a caregiver, whoever
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that person is. Our nervous system knows that
15:25
when that physical connection isn't there that it's
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experiencing some level of threat.
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That's just nature. What we develop is a second
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need. Above the need for attachment is
15:37
a need for self-expression. As babies, when we, they say,
15:41
wake up from our nap and we don't feel the parent, we start
15:45
to cry and look for that attachment because our nervous
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system knows it needs it to survive rather than die.
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Because that's literally how we function around.
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From the moment we arrive, we're in a constant mission to
15:57
survive. Then we learn that safety can be
15:59
provided, but not always guaranteed.
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So we've developed different ways of attaching ourselves to
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people. My parents were young when they
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had me, and they didn't have the emotional intelligence to meet
16:13
my full spectrum of emotion, my sensitivity, the way I call it.
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I understand why because they were met with empathy growing up
16:21
themselves. So they they did the best again.
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But what I've learned is that lost connection and I cried and
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I cried often. That led me to not get the
16:32
connection because my sensitivity wasn't welcome.
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They didn't know how to meet me in those big emotions.
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So what I've learned to do instead was go quiet.
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I modified myself expression with naturally will be being
16:46
expressive about what I need. And instead I realized that the
16:51
more I cried, the least connection I would get.
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But if I went quiet, people would wonder what was going on
16:56
with me, what is wrong, what is happening?
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Suddenly I had attention, right? What I've learned in that
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example is I'm going to abandon my need for self-expression, to
17:08
say what I really need in the hope that somebody will see my
17:12
need instead. And so I abandoned that part of
17:16
me that wants to express and instead I'm going to go quiet
17:22
and modify the way I show up in order to maintain that
17:26
attention. And that is one of the first
17:28
ways we trade authenticity for superficial connection and
17:32
abandoned our need. The development of a child is
17:37
very important. And in the 1st 7 to 10 years we
17:40
modify our self-expression. We can call that a process of
17:44
self abandonment really of our true self and we start you can
17:48
imagine your true self as this first straight line and then
17:52
when you come away from who you are, you create a second version
17:57
that masks your true needs are called it a strategic self.
18:01
We strategize it in order to maintain connection and we can
18:04
call that the first sign of self abandonment.
18:06
What does? It look like when people start
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responding to their needs without becoming selfish and
18:15
disconnected. How do you find the balance?
18:18
That's really interesting question.
18:23
I think when you start doing this deep inner work, you
18:25
recognize these parts of you and these parts of you may be parts
18:30
that you've called anxious or you know, scared, socially
18:36
awkward. These blocks that you feel in
18:39
your body, in your nervous system are the first sign to
18:43
tell you you're not being yourself.
18:46
When you start shift your values from pleasing people and being
18:51
somebody else to please them and maintain the peace, you start to
18:58
reclaim your courage a little bit and say, no, wait a minute,
19:01
I've been doing this all my life and this is making me miserable,
19:04
right? I am doing this thing for you
19:06
because I'm fear that you're going to leave me if I don't do
19:10
it. And how is that fair on me?
19:12
I'm maintaining the peace for you but in the process I'm
19:16
abandoning who I am. Now I'm discovering this about
19:20
me. This is where I went wrong to
19:21
begin with. I started to declare these
19:24
things out loud and people from confused to say wait a minute.
19:27
One minute ago you were happy to do this for me and now you are
19:31
removing this from me. They felt you are taking away
19:35
from them by being who you are. There is a process that is more
19:40
kind to your nervous system and to other people's as well.
19:43
That takes into consideration that when we change and realize
19:47
things about ourselves, we can start to build some context with
19:53
people and say, hey, I am doing some work on myself and I'm
19:56
realizing some really tough truths.
20:00
I'm feeling really unpleasant for me and I can imagine if I'm
20:03
going to start sharing it with you, you're probably going to
20:05
feel uncomfortable as well. Are you open to hear me?
20:09
Are you open to hear my journey as I discover these new parts of
20:13
me and moving through a process of self development?
20:16
Some people will be open but without context they'll feel put
20:20
on the spot. The balance is showing up for
20:23
yourself, doing what's right for your nervous system and build
20:25
context for people and say I am moving through a period of
20:28
change and I am struggling with this, but I know it's teaching
20:34
me something new that is going to be in my own best interest in
20:38
the long run. I want you to be a part of my
20:40
change. I'm curious as well to see what
20:42
change is over you and you what are the ways in which you maybe
20:46
modify yourself expression to please me?
20:49
By normalizing this natural human behavior, we can start a
20:54
person rather than the ideal we want to have in front of us.
20:59
The balance comes from taking things slowly and accepting
21:02
change is inherent. If I want to stop people
21:05
pleasing, it's not about you. It's about me actually, because
21:08
I've been people pleasing all my life in order to survive, and
21:12
now I want to value myself more. I want to embrace relationships
21:18
as a source of enrichment because otherwise I feel
21:22
depleted. If I feel depleted, you're not
21:24
going to be happy with me. I'm not going to be happy with
21:26
you. But if I'm honest with myself
21:29
and with you, we can thrive because we know what we're up
21:32
against and we're not holding back or withholding our true
21:35
selves. And so the balance really comes
21:39
from taking it slowly, building new language to express
21:44
ourselves and honour the fact that change is difficult in us,
21:48
but it will also be impactful in the life of others.
21:51
So we have to be considerate of that impact in the process of
21:57
being seen for who we truly are. Can we talk?
22:02
About when we've, you know, when relationship reach breaking
22:06
point, I think that's when people come to see you,
22:09
obviously, because hopefully they'll come a bit before.
22:13
But I guess it's the same with my job.
22:17
People come as a last resort thinking can't do it by myself.
22:22
I'm going to see Erica, how can this inner work you've talked
22:27
about support you? Why do you need that inner work
22:33
to see clearly what you need to do, whether it's break up or
22:38
save the relationship? When people come in, they're in
22:41
a state of crisis for some time. The pain of staying the same is
22:47
greater than the pain of change. They're ready to move forward in
22:53
a new way. The inner work helps people
22:59
separate their fear from the truth.
23:01
Understand instead of making decisions from like panic, guilt
23:07
or obligation, they have an opportunity at that breaking
23:11
point. We can go different ways.
23:13
One with being they can reconnect with their values,
23:17
themselves, their needs and their capacity and based off of
23:21
what it is cover, they get the option to lead to repair or lead
23:29
to separation. Those choices can become
23:35
conscious rather than reactive. This is where my work comes in
23:41
because it helped them see where they have been reactive and how
23:44
that led to the place of despair they're in and how they now have
23:53
the opportunity to create a new vision for themselves, each
23:56
other and the relationship by learning to respond to their
24:02
threat system, which is just nervous system work.
24:05
And often people think that what they are fighting about is the
24:12
real problem because they've been fighting about this thing
24:15
for so long, that's ingrained in their belief system.
24:21
But when I held them see that beneath what they fighting
24:24
about, it's something that they're fighting for which is
24:30
deeper than the socks on the floor and they're always being
24:34
late. Whatever it is, the thing that's
24:36
on the surface, there is way more beneath that.
24:39
And then they get to be responsive to that need, a need
24:42
for care and closeness. Usually people fight for care
24:46
and closeness, respect and recognition, power and control.
24:51
One of those 3, when we start to get clearer about what the real
24:55
issue is, they have an option to either fight against that real
25:02
truth, or they hold on to the fear and move through with the
25:06
same patterns of fear and reactiveness and probably lead
25:10
to separation. Or they have an option to see
25:13
that they can take ownership over the choices that they've
25:17
made. And maybe the lack of awareness
25:19
of their reactions that impact the relationship and say, oh, I
25:26
didn't realize this is what I was looking for in this
25:30
relationship. I didn't realize my nervous
25:33
system was clashing with my partner's nervous system.
25:36
And our differences in values are not to be.
25:39
We can look at hard differences in values can enrich our
25:44
relationship, but we just don't know how to do it.
25:46
This might be a good time to get help to see if we can right
25:53
respond to each other in a new way that can Co create a new
25:57
version of these relationships. So sometimes people find that
25:59
they come to a breaking point thinking this is our last chance
26:04
and we're only hoping this things are going to change.
26:07
We don't know how. And and it's it's beautiful to
26:12
see when people start to learn what's needed to clear the air
26:15
and say, I can relax into this. I don't have to react
26:17
constantly. The ability to move from
26:20
reactiveness to response is what's going to determine if
26:24
people can survive the relationship or reinvent the
26:28
relationship or separate. Yeah, so.
26:35
What does a secure relationship looks?
26:39
Or feel. Like from the inside.
26:47
A secure relationship On the outside we think a secure
26:51
relationship is the illusion that we are connected, stable
26:59
and safe around each other. That we have built a life that
27:03
allow us to feel externally secure.
27:06
Meaning that we have our finances in order to home,
27:08
children well taken care of and health is up to scratch.
27:16
And we don't seem like friction happens between us.
27:20
We grew up with. Like having friction and
27:22
disconnection relationship is still a taboo.
27:25
But on the inside, what security is in a relationship dynamic is
27:31
where you feel steady and trust that you and your partner can
27:39
meet each other, collaborate against challenges, feel secure
27:46
in each other's abilities, and believe in your partner to know
27:50
you have each other's back when challenges occur.
27:56
In a secure relationship, you're not avoiding the hard
28:01
conversations. You're not avoiding the
28:03
conflict. You are leaning into the
28:10
discomfort of having hard conversations that potentially
28:18
could lead to rupture, but with the intention to stay A-Team you
28:23
know you can overcome and repair over time.
28:26
A secure, healthy, successful relationship is not determined
28:29
by the lack of this connection, is determined by how you move
28:34
through this connection together as a team and how you return to
28:40
each other. In a secure relationship that
28:42
first and foremost, you're going to choose collaboration time and
28:46
time again, even when you disagree and you perhaps have
28:50
completely opposite views. A secure relationship is a space
28:53
where there is room for repair, honesty, and differences to be
28:59
acknowledged rather than judged or pushed away.
29:03
Right. You can be yourself without
29:05
bracing yourself, and they can be yourself around you.
29:10
You feel that you're choosing each other.
29:13
You're not managing each other to have your needs met.
29:16
You are collaborating to have each other's needs met, and you
29:21
see the relationship as the most important, not your children,
29:25
the house, the job. The relationship is what you
29:29
nurture as a third entity, much like the baby, so it can thrive
29:35
and function as a support system that is solid enough for the
29:41
foundation, where you know there is mutual respect and space for
29:44
repair and vulnerability. So that no matter the challenge
29:47
that comes, you can move through the challenge together as a
29:50
team. And it's not you against each
29:52
other, it's you against the challenge.
29:54
That's what a secure relationship is.
29:59
Thank you. It's really interesting.
30:00
I've never thought about it that way.
30:03
Erica, I'm going to ask you a practical question.
30:07
How do people get in touch with you?
30:11
How do you work with them so they can have an idea of what's
30:15
going to happen if they contact you?
30:18
Sure. Thank.
30:18
You I have a website www.ericamarmite.com.
30:24
I'm also on Instagram at Relate Better with Erica.
30:29
So I work with individuals as well as couples.
30:32
Couples is really where I see the transformation happen but I
30:35
also work with individual who struggle in their relational
30:38
life. I have a course called From
30:41
Rupture to Repair which is a three weeks live coaching course
30:45
for couples. Brave couples who want to
30:49
reconnect, stay connected and want to learn to have the hard
30:52
conversations and turn them into soft deeper connection.
30:58
This course is a course that they can simply take as a stand
31:01
alone offer as a way of learning the basic tools of repair, or
31:06
they can use as a warm up to then enter the coaching space
31:10
and receive private coaching with me.
31:12
Which is a beautiful safe space to uncover these parts of them
31:17
and to have these couples meet each other almost for the first
31:20
time. Once you start this process,
31:21
you're going to learn so much about each other and yourself
31:24
that you're going to feel that the relationship is getting
31:27
reinvented and you have so much more ahead of you.
31:30
Rather than fall into the belief that maybe there is nothing else
31:34
left, which is often what people come to me with, this course is
31:39
a resource I recommend any couples take, whether decide to
31:42
go into coaching or not. And I also offer regular
31:45
workshops where I'll teach the foundation, relational
31:47
development, anything between values and how to further
31:52
organize different areas of life.
31:54
Considering time together and time apart.
31:57
Considering how you communicate. How you talk about family
32:01
dynamics, home tours, intimacy and sex or finances.
32:06
Clarifying what a relationship needs.
32:08
Or you can thrive. You can find all the information
32:10
on my website and reach out for a free connection call if you're
32:14
curious and just wanted to ask questions.
32:17
I'll put everything in the podcast notes.
32:19
Anyway, Erica, thank you so much for being with me on the podcast
32:24
today. I will let you have the last
32:27
word. If you could leave the listeners
32:30
with one insight about transforming their
32:33
relationships, what would it be? The patterns and insecurities
32:41
you feel affected by are not flaws, they're just adaptations,
32:47
important parts of you that you have developed to maintain
32:54
connection over the course of time.
32:58
And those patterns sometimes end up running their own course.
33:04
We need to update them in order for them to function in this new
33:09
version of who we are today. When you understand them and the
33:13
way you show up with compassion rather than shame or self blame
33:17
or judgement, change becomes possible, right?
33:22
So remember that relationships don't heal through blame and
33:26
judgement, they heal through awareness and responsibility.
33:29
Understanding how you function in the world and how you can
33:36
best show up for yourself and others is really determined by
33:42
your understanding of yourself and the responsibility you take
33:45
for those patterns, rather than the judgement you have of them.
33:49
Thank you, Erica. Thank you.
33:52
Thank you so much.