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What a Family Lawyer Wishes Every Woman Knew About Money and Relationships · She's On The Money

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  Speaker 1: My name is Tatasha Bamblet. I'm a proud First Nations
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  Speaker 1: woman and I'm here to acknowledge country t Glenn Young Ganya,
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  Speaker 1: Niana Kaka yah y and Binahaka Nian Our gay In
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  Speaker 1: Mbini yakarum Jar Dominyamiga Umagahawaka Woman Damon Imlan Bumba ban
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  Speaker 1: Gadabomba in and now in wakah ghan On yak rum
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  Speaker 1: Jar water Nadaa. Hello, beautiful friends, we gather on the
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  Speaker 1: lands of the Aboriginal people. We thank acknowledge and respect
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  Speaker 1: the Aboriginal people's land that we're gathering on today. Take
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  Speaker 1: pleasure in all the land and respect all that you see.
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  Speaker 1: She's on the Money podcast acknowledges culture, country, community and connections,
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  Speaker 1: bringing you the tools, knowledge and resources for you to thrive.
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  Speaker 2: She's on the Money. She's on the Money. Hello and
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  Speaker 2: welcome to She's on the Money, the podcast that's not
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  Speaker 2: only here to help you build your financial future, but
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  Speaker 2: protect it to and sorry. The truth is, you can
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  Speaker 2: have a fantastic relationship, the best relationship in the world,
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  Speaker 2: even and still accidentally put yourself in a risky financial
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  Speaker 2: position without even realizing it. I am Victoria Divine, and
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  Speaker 2: today we are joined by a very special guest, Claire Woalzac.
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  Speaker 2: Claire is an accredited family law specialist and partner at
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  Speaker 2: Lander and Rogers who is basically the person you would
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  Speaker 2: want in your corner if money and relationships ever collided
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  Speaker 2: in a very complicated way. Claire has this incredible ability
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  Speaker 2: to take the most intimidating parts of family law, property,
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  Speaker 2: super child support, financial agreements and translate them into clear,
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  Speaker 2: practical advice that actually empowers women instead of scaring them away.
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  Speaker 2: She's known for her genuine passion for helping people protect
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  Speaker 2: their finances, their future, and their sense of security during
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  Speaker 2: some of the most emotional chapters of their lives. Claire,
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  Speaker 2: welcome to She's on the Money, Victoria.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you for the very kind introduction, and thank you
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  Speaker 3: for having me here today. I'm very excited to be
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  Speaker 3: I'm excited, but like, are we excited to talk about divorce?
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  Speaker 2: I don't know, like I got an excited topic. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: it's like when I get excited about the share market
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  Speaker 2: or honestly, just women protecting themselves. And I have wanted
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  Speaker 2: to do this episode for the longest time, but I
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  Speaker 2: didn't want to do it on my own. I was like,
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  Speaker 2: we need a professional, and then when we finally found you,
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  Speaker 2: my producer Emma and I were like, she's the one.
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  Speaker 2: Get her on the show. Let's do this. But I've
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  Speaker 2: wanted to do this episode for so long because the
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  Speaker 2: statistics don't lie. Relationship breakdowns happen, and they happen to
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  Speaker 2: really good people in really good relationships sometimes unfortunately almost
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  Speaker 2: and you would know this. I mean, you've made your
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  Speaker 2: entire career on this. One in three marriages are going
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  Speaker 2: to end in divorce, and countless factor of relationships fall
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  Speaker 2: apart before anyone even realizes that they were even legally
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  Speaker 2: considered de facto. And every single time, the financial fallout
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  Speaker 2: hits the women the hardest, which makes me and you
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  Speaker 2: probably very grumpy, angry, empowered. Let's go with it. It
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  Speaker 2: makes us feel empowered to facilitate change. And I would
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  Speaker 2: love to get to know you a little bit. Why
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  Speaker 2: did you want to practice family law? Where did that
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  Speaker 2: come from? You woke up one day and said, I
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  Speaker 2: really want to help people through their divorces. What makes
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  Speaker 2: you so passionate about this space? Thank you?
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  Speaker 3: So I've been practicing family law now for must be
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  Speaker 3: coming up to thirteen years. So have you practiced exclusively
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  Speaker 3: in this jurisdiction? Did my law degree? Didn't really know
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  Speaker 3: what I.
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  Speaker 2: Wanted to do.
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  Speaker 3: I did some training as a paralegal in a family
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  Speaker 3: law firm, and the minute I started in that firm,
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  Speaker 3: I just absolutely loved it. I loved the human interaction,
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  Speaker 3: the fact that even as a junior lawyer you had
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  Speaker 3: that one on one contact with the client, and also
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  Speaker 3: being able to help clients who are going through what
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  Speaker 3: is often the most difficult time in their lives to
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  Speaker 3: come out the other end to achieve financial and emotional
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  Speaker 3: stability is something that really drew me to the industry
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  Speaker 3: and is why I remain in this position today.
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  Speaker 2: That and I just it makes me feel bad because
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  Speaker 2: just so many people, like we all get married, right
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  Speaker 2: or not all of us, but the people that do
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  Speaker 2: get married get married never with the intention of being like,
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  Speaker 2: can't wait, we'll have the best divorce, Like you get
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  Speaker 2: married with the intention of that being your forever person.
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  Speaker 2: So you're not just talking about like the financial security
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  Speaker 2: aspects of it. You're also talking about like the heartbreak
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  Speaker 2: that the plans you had laid out in front of
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  Speaker 2: you are no longer the plans that are your reality,
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  Speaker 2: and I feel like you're balancing this situation where you're like,
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  Speaker 2: I need to get through the pragmatic stuff and put
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  Speaker 2: myself in the best possible position, but I also don't
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  Speaker 2: know what life looks like in the future because I
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  Speaker 2: didn't plan for this, And then you throw kids into
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  Speaker 2: the mix and everything just gets so flipping complicated. But
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  Speaker 2: first up, before we dive into even more complicated questions,
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  Speaker 2: if you had a daughter that was about to move
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  Speaker 2: in with her partner, what financial conversations or what things,
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  Speaker 2: what tips, what tricks are you giving her to make
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  Speaker 2: sure that she's protected, that you would basically insist on
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  Speaker 2: her having in place before she moved in with that person.
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  Speaker 3: So obviously, for couples entering into a new relationship, discussing
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  Speaker 3: money and finances can be confronting. It's awkward, and it's
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  Speaker 3: certainly not romantic, so there's.
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  Speaker 2: No more romance being like, so what's your payg.
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  Speaker 3: Exactly, it's awkward. Do you have good super Show me
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  Speaker 3: a balance sheet. However, what I can say to you
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  Speaker 3: from experience is that it is much more difficult having
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  Speaker 3: those discussions around money once a couple has separated or
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  Speaker 3: they're close to separating. So one option for consideration would
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  Speaker 3: be to enter into what's called a binding financial agreement.
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  Speaker 3: I love a BFA, also referred to Yep, you're onto
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  Speaker 3: it as a BFA or a pre nuptial agreement. And
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  Speaker 3: so a financial agreement is essentially a legally binding contract
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  Speaker 3: in which parties can decide how they would like to
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  Speaker 3: split their assets upon a separation or divorce. Yeah, a
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  Speaker 3: BFA is great because it can deal with not only
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  Speaker 3: property settlement but also spousal maintenance. And it really is
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  Speaker 3: a common method that our clients are now using to
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  Speaker 3: protect their assets. If entered into properly, it has the
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  Speaker 3: effect of our seeing the jurisdiction of the family court,
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  Speaker 3: which means parties never have to go near a court
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  Speaker 3: if they separate in the future. So we're definitely seeing
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  Speaker 3: these used more and more as a means to protect wealth.
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  Speaker 3: So in some instances that may not be appropriate for
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  Speaker 3: whatever reasons.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, like what if she's young and has nothing to
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  Speaker 2: a name yet, but is also like I want to
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  Speaker 2: protect my financial future, Like are these things that we
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  Speaker 2: should be entering into or are these things that we
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  Speaker 2: just need to know about? If we do have assets.
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  Speaker 3: Look, I think it's always good to know that it's
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  Speaker 3: there as an option and then potentially get the advice
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  Speaker 3: and then make an informed decision about whether it's the
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  Speaker 3: right time to enter into it for your particular circumstances.
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  Speaker 3: If it's not appropriate for whatever reason. There's definitely some
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  Speaker 3: practical tips that if it was my daughter or a
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  Speaker 3: potential client should potentially consider. So the first of those
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  Speaker 3: would be the importance of openly discussing money, including continuously
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  Speaker 3: sort of reviewing financial goals, and you'd want to see
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  Speaker 3: that happening throughout the relationship, so not just at the commencement,
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  Speaker 3: but throughout the entire relationship. Secondly, I would suggest creating
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  Speaker 3: a financial plan at the beginning of the relationship, so
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  Speaker 3: sitting down and really having you can.
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  Speaker 2: Just take over my podcast honestly, because this is all
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  Speaker 2: the stuff that I'm like, make a financial plan, do
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  Speaker 2: a BFA, do all of this stuff exactly just on
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  Speaker 2: the same So important because that is when you'll sit
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  Speaker 2: down and realize, oh, we actually do have some conflicting
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  Speaker 2: views about financial issues, yeah, and you want to be
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  Speaker 2: able to.
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  Speaker 3: Address those at the beginning of the relationship, as opposed
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  Speaker 3: to them coming up later in the relationship when you know, maybe.
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  Speaker 2: It's too late. Yeah, And that's kind of scary as well,
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  Speaker 2: because you go, oh, I think we're on the same page,
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  Speaker 2: we're so in love. And then they might go, oh, well,
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  Speaker 2: I never want to own property. That's, you know, a
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  Speaker 2: waste of money. My parents never owned property, and you go,
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  Speaker 2: my entire dream is to purchase property, or they have
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  Speaker 2: no interest in saving or investing, and you've been keenly
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  Speaker 2: doing it in the background, and it just it can
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  Speaker 2: get really icky and sticky, which is why I want
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  Speaker 2: it to happen beforehand. And I often say on this show, Claire,
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  Speaker 2: I would love for your BFA to be a waste
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  Speaker 2: of time and money, Like I would love to be like,
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  Speaker 2: we did it, we organized it, and we never used it.
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  Speaker 2: What a waste. So your relationship was really successful and
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  Speaker 2: you didn't need to trigger AVFA. Fantastic exactly.
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  Speaker 3: And I often say to my clients who are considering
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  Speaker 3: a BFA, I say to them, look, you put it
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  Speaker 3: in your bottom drawer and hopefully never have to look
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  Speaker 3: at it again. Yeah, it's an insurance policy essentially, you
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  Speaker 3: take it out if you need it, but otherwise you
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  Speaker 3: hopefully never have to look at it again.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent. And it can also make like
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  Speaker 2: let's say not so amicable separation much easier because you
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  Speaker 2: can draw back to the BFA and maybe you don't
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  Speaker 2: even need to get lawyers or the courts or anything involved,
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  Speaker 2: because you go, well, we did agree that this is
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  Speaker 2: how it would go, and then you can go your
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  Speaker 2: separate ways, especially if you're de facto or not married,
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  Speaker 2: and there's literally no paperwork. We just don't need to
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  Speaker 2: get anyone involved because we go we hate each other,
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  Speaker 2: but yeah, we set that out, all right, we'll do that,
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  Speaker 2: and like, hopefully both parties are respectful of that exactly.
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  Speaker 3: Well, the good thing about it financial agreement is that
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  Speaker 3: both parties need to obtain independent legal advice, so they've
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  Speaker 3: both had advice at the time of entering into the agreement,
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  Speaker 3: so they know exactly what it is that they've essentially
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  Speaker 3: signed up to. And hopefully in most of the agreements
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  Speaker 3: that I do, there's protection that goes both ways. Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: and the parties are comfortable with what they're signing, so obviously,
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  Speaker 3: if there were to be an unfortunate event of a
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  Speaker 3: separation in the future, both parties know exactly what they're
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  Speaker 3: walking away with. There's certainty, there's reduced legal fees or
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  Speaker 3: hopefully no legal fees at the pointy end, and the
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  Speaker 3: parties will never have to go near the court.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's a perfect outcome, honestly, because that is
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  Speaker 2: a bit of a nightmare. Stepping a little bit further back,
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  Speaker 2: how does the law actually treat couples like married in
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  Speaker 2: de facto when it comes to finance and assets. I
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  Speaker 2: think there's a lot of mixed information flying around, absolutely, So.
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  Speaker 3: Firstly, I might just make the point that de facto
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  Speaker 3: spouses and our ed spouses have exactly the same rights
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  Speaker 3: under the Family Law Act. So once you've overcome those
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  Speaker 3: jurisdictional hurdles or requirements, the same legislation or law applies.
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  Speaker 3: So what I might do now is just briefly run
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  Speaker 3: you through how the court deal with property settlement, because
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  Speaker 3: I'll probably come.
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  Speaker 2: Back to that and I feel like that's the biggest conversation, right,
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  Speaker 2: I'm really excited exactly.
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  Speaker 3: So, look, in any property settlement that we deal with,
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  Speaker 3: we apply the same five step process. So that's regardless
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  Speaker 3: of the party's financial circumstances. So the first step that
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  Speaker 3: we look at is should there be a property settlement
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  Speaker 3: at all? We usually overcome that pretty quickly. The second
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  Speaker 3: step is identifying the assets, liabilities and superannuation of the
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  Speaker 3: parties and ascribing a value to those assets and really
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  Speaker 3: coming up with a balance sheet. The third step we
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  Speaker 3: look at is contributions to the relationship and chip, so
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  Speaker 3: we will assess the financial contributions, non financial contributions, and
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  Speaker 3: then contributions of the homemaker and parent also come into play.
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  Speaker 2: So like are we talking Sorry to interrupt, yeah, but
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  Speaker 2: like are we talking? Like, you know, let's pretend we
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  Speaker 2: have two working parents, but the mum is always doing
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  Speaker 2: daycare pick up and drop off and the dad doesn't
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  Speaker 2: really get involved in that because he just does his
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  Speaker 2: stuff and comes home to a cooked meal. Like is
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  Speaker 2: that the type of conversation we're having or are you
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  Speaker 2: talking about like genuine like know, how many hours are
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  Speaker 2: you doing per week per work? Like I feel like
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  Speaker 2: it can get messy?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, look it can. And it's more sort of looking
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  Speaker 3: at it in a general sense. So who's working, who's
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  Speaker 3: the primary income earner? The other parent or party might
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  Speaker 3: be working, but maybe in a part time capacity. Who's
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  Speaker 3: looking after the children who's looking after the home. Then
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  Speaker 3: we also look at sort of significant contributions which may
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  Speaker 3: sort of swing the pendulum in either direction, and they're
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  Speaker 3: sort of in the nature of an inheritance, financial gifts
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  Speaker 3: that might have come in from parents. They're the sort
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  Speaker 3: of other financial contributions that we're looking out to see
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  Speaker 3: if there needs to be some further adjustment at that step.
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  Speaker 3: But otherwise, the contribution of income and homemaker parent contribution
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  Speaker 3: are usually considered to be equal.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, so that's the third step.
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  Speaker 3: Then we'll move to the fourth step, which is looking
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  Speaker 3: at and assessing future needs or prospective factors and working
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  Speaker 3: out does there need to be some sort of further
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  Speaker 3: adjustment as a result of that step. So things that
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  Speaker 3: come up for us commonly are, if one parent has
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  Speaker 3: the primary care of children, usually younger children, and who
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  Speaker 3: is the prime is there a discrepancy in income sorry, yeah,
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  Speaker 3: between the parties that might warrant an adjustment. Then finally
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  Speaker 3: the fifth step, the court essentially step back look at
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  Speaker 3: the adjustment and say does the need to be an
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  Speaker 3: adjustment in one person's favor to ensure that the settlement
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  Speaker 3: is just an equitable or that it's fair yeah, So
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  Speaker 3: that's how the property settlement works in Australia, as I said,
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  Speaker 3: regardless of the family's financial situation.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, now just to bud in apologies. So you sit
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: down with the couple or you sit down with an individual.
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  Speaker 2: I sit down with the individuals. So you would represent
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  Speaker 2: one party and then the other party would have to
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  Speaker 2: get their own legal advice. And so you're doing this
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  Speaker 2: process and then hopefully another lawyer is doing this process
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  Speaker 2: in the same way, and then you get to come
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  Speaker 2: together and go, well, we're on the same page. This
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  Speaker 2: is the settlement that never happens, but like in a
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  Speaker 2: perfect world, that's what would happen because you're obviously operating
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  Speaker 2: in the best interest of your client but also trying
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: to be fair and equitable, and they're hopefully doing the
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: same thing. Is that correct? How you would explain that
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  Speaker 2: process exactly?
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  Speaker 3: So we will act for one party, whether that's the
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: husband or the wife yep, and then hopefully the other
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  Speaker 3: party has engaged their own legal representation and then will
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  Speaker 3: negotiate through the lawyers.
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  Speaker 2: What if they don't. What if I've gone and gotten
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: a lawyer and then my partner hasn't gone and gotten
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  Speaker 2: a lawyer because he doesn't believe in them.
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  Speaker 3: Look, the other person does not have to get a lawyer,
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: and no one has to get a lawyer. What we
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: sometimes see in very amicable situations is that one party
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  Speaker 3: might receive legal advice and then they'll go back to
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  Speaker 3: their ex partner and negotiate the property settlement directly with
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  Speaker 3: that person and then just say I was acting for
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  Speaker 3: the person that had gone to see the lawyer, we
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: would then simply draw up the settlement documents.
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  Speaker 1: Yep.
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  Speaker 2: And if they're on the same page's.
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  Speaker 3: And there's certain settlement documents, can sent orders that the
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: other person does not need to see a lawyer to
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: get them signed off.
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  Speaker 2: So we do see that happen.
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  Speaker 3: It's probably rare because I think it's a good idea
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: for both parties to at least receive that initial legal
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: advice so that they're aware of their rights. But as
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: I said, if it's really amicable, hopefully the lawyers are
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  Speaker 3: just you know, advising in the background and just end
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  Speaker 3: up drawing up the settlement documents.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so pervy about it, but I think that
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  Speaker 2: I'm asking these perfect questions because unfortunately, being an ex
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  Speaker 2: financial advisor I'd always be the person working with the
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: divorce lawyer pull up all of the financials and can
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: you make a statement of this, and can you give
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  Speaker 2: me all of the contributions that she made versus he made,
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  Speaker 2: like you know, what's the property Like I would be
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: the person doing all of the I guess grunt work
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: to put on your balance sheet, and my goodness, it
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  Speaker 2: would get complicated and I feel like one person would
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  Speaker 2: believe they were entitled to more or the other person
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  Speaker 2: would be like, no, but I brought that to the relationship,
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  Speaker 2: and then there'd be just a lot of arguments that
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  Speaker 2: would just complications and misunderstandings. So what would you say
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  Speaker 2: is the most or are the most common misunderstandings that
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: people have around superannuation and property splits or financial sediments
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  Speaker 2: and the things that you wish just I wish every
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: couple knew this before they even combined their fine answers. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: absolutely so.
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  Speaker 3: Look, in relation to superannuation, there still seems to be
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: an understanding, or I should say misunderstanding that superannuation is
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: somehow quarantined from the property settlement.
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  Speaker 2: Feels not quaranteed to us.
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  Speaker 3: It feels it so unfortunately I have to give people
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: the advice depending on who I'm acting for that No
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  Speaker 3: superannuation is included unless way.
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  Speaker 2: And the jurisdiction is different. We're talking about the East
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: Coast of Australia, just to be very clear here.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, it's slightly different in WA, but superannuation is considered
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  Speaker 3: property so it can be split as part of the
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: property settlement and often is so. Some other common myths
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: or misconceptions in family law include some couples think we're together,
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: so everything's going to be split fifty to fifty equally,
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  Speaker 3: regardless of what the contributions are, regardless of what the
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: future needs are.
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  Speaker 2: That's just not correct.
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  Speaker 3: We always have to go through that five step process
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: to work out what a party's entitlement is going to be.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: That's a very American take comes up all the time. Yeah,
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: and people would go, it's fifty to fifty like the
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: government just that's the base. And it's like not in Australia,
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: maybe in America, but we are different exactly.
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's no starting point of equality, so that one
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: comes up time and time again. The other one that
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: we often see is people think, well, it's in my name,
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: therefore it is mine yep. However, in family law, legal
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: ownership doesn't really mean anything.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: In your name doesn't mean anything. It doesn't yet you
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: can't actually open a shared trading account with two names on.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: It has to be in one parties or a trust.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: So it makes that make sense exactly.
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: So you know, people also were quite shocked sometimes hearing
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: that advice. But with property it's broadly defined. You know,
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: everything goes onto the asset sheet or the balance sheet,
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: whether it's in sole name, joint names, whether it's owned
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: by a business or a trust. Assets that are held
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: internationally also go on, and then you obviously go through
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: that five step process to work out what the entitlements are.
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: The other one that I wanted to mention, because this
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: one still comes up time and time again, is that
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: people believe that informal property settlements are legally binding or enforceable,
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: and they are not so, and.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: That can be heartbreaking as well to learn, very heartbreaking.
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: So I've had some poor clients who have come to
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: me and they've said, oh, we entered into an informal
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: property settlement two years ago, and I've now been served
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: with a court application, and so I have to give
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: them advice to say, well, unfortunately you never registered that
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: agreement with the family court, you never entered into a
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: financial agreement, therefore not binding. We're going to have to
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: go through the process again, which is obviously very upsetting,
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: emotionally distressing, but financially.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: You're going to take a big hit having to go
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: through legal fees again. Yeah, I feel like your job.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: Yes you are a family lawyer, but you're also probably
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: a therapist as well. Like the amount of times that
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: like I would see it as well, and you just go,
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: this is so much more emotional than it is logical,
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: and we need to work through that as well. So
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: that's another challenge. Can I just pop back to super
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: because you said, oh, there's this common misunderstanding that super is,
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: you know, a segregated thing and it's not just treated
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: as property. What if you've had a stay at home mum.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: Let's pretend they're in their fifty so they're pre retirement,
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: but they are definitely thinking about it, and she maybe
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: has like thirty thousand dollars sitting in her super because
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: she worked for a bit and then had kids and
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: then never really went back. And you've got an executive
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: who's got a couple of hundred grand. You're saying she
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: could be entitled to some of his super look. Yes,
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: that's correct.
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: So in long marriages or relationships, the general position is
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: superannuation will be equalized so that she would walk away
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: with fifty percent of the superannuation.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: Long though, is it like long as in about ten.
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: Years now considered to be a long marriage or relationship,
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: and otherwise if it was a shorter relationship, there's still
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: an opportunity to have a superannuation split.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it may just not be fifty to fifty. No,
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: and that kind of makes sense, and I'm assuming that. Then,
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: you know, if they were younger and they had dependents
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: like that, then changes the triggers again, because like exactly
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: not just looking after yourself anymore because the kids have
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: flown the coop, you actually have dependents that rely on you.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: I have just so many questions, and like, I want
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: to get more into the pervy stuff. So let's Claire
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: take a really quick break, and then when we come back,
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: I've got some more questions for you, mainly about things
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: like unpaid work in relationships, because women, as you would
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: already know, are wildly fantastic and undervaluing themselves and the
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: contributions they make to a household. And then I want
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: to know some red flags to look out for and
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: what to do if you're thinking about leaving your relationship.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: But you haven't had that conversation yet, so guys, don't
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: go anywhere. All right, Welcome back, everybody. I want to
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: start this first half of the episode with something that sits,
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: I guess at the center of so many women's financial stories,
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: and that is unpaid labor, unpaid work, and the years
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: that are spent out of the workforce caring for children.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: And it's twenty twenty six, so I feel like gender
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: roles have changed. Like I've got at the moment a
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: stay home husband, which is amazing, and I'm the primary
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: you know, breadwinner, but that's not common And even talking
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: to like mums at daycare, they're like, wait, what, what's
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: your dynamic? How does that work? So I've been crucified
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: in the past because they're like, oh, you just gender
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: stereotype women so often, But I'm not gender stereotyping. That's
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: just the reality of most of the world's construct So
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: when someone has been relying on their partner as the
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: primary income earner for a really long time. I feel
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: like it's really easy to feel stuck like you haven't
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: contributed quite enough, because like you were the one going
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: to work and your name wasn't on that pay slip,
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: or that maybe you're not entitled too much when the
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: relationship ends, Claire, could you please walk us through and
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: I've pre prepared you for this one, but walk us
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: through a real world example of how unpaid work or
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: even uneven earnings is actually treated in a separation.
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: Sure.
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, Look, this issue comes up time and time again
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: with contributions, which is the third step.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: If you remember when I went through the fun or
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: the five step process before, Please don't please don't have
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: a question with the end.
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: So we look at contributions to the relationship and those
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: contributions are as I said, financial, non financial, and also
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: we look at the homemaker and parent contribution.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: I make a document of that. Would you mind if
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: I take your five steps give you complete credit, but
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: I'll make it as like a free downloadable on my website.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: This is how the divorce process would go, so you
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: can have a think about it before you go and
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: see a divorce lawyer or if you're thinking of leaving
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: your partner, like this is just what it look back
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: and like if they happened to look over your shoulder'd
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: be like, oh, it's just on she's on the money.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: How interesting. Absolutely, you're probably the same as me. I'm like,
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: I'll be the bad guy. You just say I said
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: that you had to do that, right, I'm happy to
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: be that person. And we'll put it on the website
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: and it'll be a free download. All so for everyone
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: following along, the link to that is going to be
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: in the show notes.
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: Great, So the court will assess what did the parties
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: have when they commenced living together, what's happened over the
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: course of the relationship, and then maybe we also need
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: to look at post separation contributions. But when it comes
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: to strictly looking at income, so who was the primary
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: income earner and then who looked after the children or
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: undertook the domestic duties those contributions, it is settled that they.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: Will be assessed equally fifty to fifty. There will be no.
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: Adjustment in, for example, the husband's favor because ehe has
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: earned say a million dollars a year and his wife
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: has had to maybe step back from her career to
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: raise However, many children.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: Which ultimately impacted him positively because he could focus on
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: earning that money and not just earning that money, but
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: working his career up. So when he leaves this relationship,
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: he still has that earning potential, but she does not exactly.
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: And I often say to clients the most valuable thing
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: walking away from a property settlement is that earning potential.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: Yes, because you carry that with you know, you get
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: to keep that. We can't take that from you, exactly.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: So look the law, it's settled law. Those contributions will
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: be assessed as equal.
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: Now, what I am seeing sort of come through in
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: recent times where there's obviously more women in the workforce,
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: is that some wives are not only taking on the
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: role as primary homemaker and parent, but they're also taking
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: on the role as primary income earner.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, it makes me so grumpy because I'm
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: just like, you both became parents on the same day,
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: yet you're not splitting the like contributions equally exactly. So
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: then I have to give advice to my female client
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: to say, look, unfortunately the law has not caught up
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: with the current times, and those contributions will still be
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: assessed as equal.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: So she will not be able to get an extra
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: percentage or whatever it works out to be because she's
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: been carrying the burden of both work and the homemaker
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: parenting role. So I'm really hopeful that the law will
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: change and that there will be a case that goes
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: to the full court that then allows the female to
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: receive some extra contributions and then obviously do better in
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: the property settlement.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and the worst part about it is you could
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: talk about wanting that to the cows come home, but
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: we actually need a couple to set a precedence we
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: did in the court, to like actually fight it and
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: take it and be willing to throw their money at
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: this situation to get their best possible outcome so that
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: the precedence can be set so that then we can
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: fall back on that as well. This case worked this way,
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: but right now we don't have it. So if someone
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: wants to fight that fight for us, just let us know.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: Please let me know, because I would love to. We
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: want if we could, if we could be involved, that
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: would be fantastic. So it's like, you're not just doing
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: it for you, You're doing it for women all across
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: Australia exactly exactly speaking about children and like pivoting a
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: little bit. How is child support assessed and then enforced
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: and what challenges to people most commonly face in that space?
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: Sure, So, look, the child support legislation is very very complex.
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: Child support is managed through Services Australia and the way
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: that they assess child support.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: Is done through a formula.
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: So that formula essentially takes into account the number of
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: nights the children are spending with each parent, takes into
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: account the parent's incomes, It takes into account the age
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: and number of children, and then a few other factors
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: and then comes out with an assessment and an assessed
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: amount that needs to be paid on a weekly or
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: fortnightly basis, and that can be paid either privately or
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: it can be paid through the child support agency. When
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: it comes to high income families, they will often enter
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: into private child support agreements and that can cover off
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: on periodic child support, so you sort of weekly or
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: monthly payments, but it can also cover non periodic expenses
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: such as private school fees, your health insurance premiums, gap
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: medical expenses, extracurricula everything. Basically, it can be covered off
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: any child related costs, any child related expense can go
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: into that agreement. So we will often negotiate child support
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: at the same time that we're negotiating a property settlement
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: and then document it by way of binding child support agreement,
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: or they might decide to do an assessment through the agency.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: It just depends on the circumstances and is it true
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: that if you go through the assessment the agencies sugests
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: and they're like pre calculated formula, it's not usually enough.
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: And that's why private settlements are usually more popular, not
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: because people are trying to get out of it, but
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: more Yeah, cool, you can't put much food on the
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: table for the calculated amount that the government does.
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: Look, I think that's a concern that our clients have,
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: is if that they simply go through the assessment that
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: just simply isn't enough to cover the expenses that their
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: children have. There is a child support cap amount where
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: families are earning a certain level of income, and I
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: would have to check exactly what.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: You don't have to disclose that that's fine, but it's
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: good to know that the cap exists.
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: There is a cap, and once you reach that cap,
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: you sort of capped out. All bets are off all
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: bets are off, and then it is absolutely appropriate to
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: look at entering into a private agreement because your kids
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: are likely going to have higher expenses than that of
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: you know.
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: You've created a life style and it's different, and you
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: might even just live in a different suburb and therefore
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: rents more expensive. And like it can get very nuanced
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: and very complicated, and like child support is complicated. It is, Yes, absolutely,
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: I won't go on and on about that, but that's complicated.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: But relationships in general are very complicated. And you get
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: is it the privilege of seeing inside so many relationships
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: and usually when they're not doing so well. So what
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: early money behaviors or patterns tend to predict financial problems
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: later on in the relationship for you?
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think I am in a very unique
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: position where I am exposed to all of these different
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: relationships and we have clients as young as in their
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: thirties separating right up until sixty seventies, sometimes even older.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: So I've definitely.
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: Observed some sort of key behaviors that can lead to
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: financial troubles that we see later in life. The first
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: of those is and this is probably doesn't come as
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: we prize to you. But families often spend more than
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: they earn.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: So wow, really that's crazy. It's common.
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: So obviously that's where a family's income is applied to
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: discretionary or non essential type items. And you know, instead of,
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: for instance, applying those funds towards investments or paying down
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: the mortgage. Often these families are driving expensive luxury vehicles
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: which are fully leased.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah they are paying kills me because you like see
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: them and you go, wow, they're so aspirational. I didn't
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: see the divorce coming. Exactly.
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: They are potentially paying private school fees, but they're doing
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: that using credit or drawing down on their mortgage. They're
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: buying other luxury items, spending a lot of money on holidays.
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: So from the facade, it looks as though they have
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: a lot of trainey. They're the Joneses, exactly.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: And we all know some of them.
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: And when they side to separate, there just simply isn't
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: a lot of property available for division, and they certainly
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: won't be able to maintain that level of spending a
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: lifestyle that they may have been accustomed to while they
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: were together. In some extreme cases that we see, we
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: have to separate debt and that gets really nasty. Yeah,
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: because no one wants to carry debt exactly, prefer to
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: walk away cleanly. And I get that that's not how
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: this is going to work out. I'm sorry, sir, exactly.
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: So that's a big one that we see. Then there
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: really is generally just a lack of financial planning or
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: budgeting that we come across. So this often leads to overspending,
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: and then there's just no surplus funds available for the
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: event of an emergency. Now, an emergency could be anything,
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: but one example is a separation that could be considered
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: an emergency. So for women in particular, when they separate
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: and they don't have this sort of I guess kitty
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: or emergency fund available to them, they can be left
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: in a pretty financially precarious position, particularly if they're looking
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: after young children, they're not working, and they haven't devised
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: a plan for how they're going to separate. So my
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: advice is always have an emergency fund that you can access.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: If I need to not preach that loud enough. I
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: have been preaching it for years, Claire, and still people
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: will be like, it's fine, my husband and I are
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: in a really good place, and then all of a sudden,
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: you're not and you're going I wish i'd listened to you,
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: and I go, I know, but you only hear what
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: you want to hear, and you only do what you
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: want to do. And I feel like it's so nice,
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: and like I'm obsessed with my husband, Claire. He is
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: the best thing since li Spread. I will tell you
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: all about him all day, every day. But I'm not
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: deluded enough to think that that might be forever, like
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: I would love it to be forever. Like you know,
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: we always talk about inner eighties. We'll do this and that,
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: like very cute. But also I have my own emergency fund.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: I know what the finances look like. We are always
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: talking about budgeting and we're always making sure that we're
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: on the same page because it's just so important. Like
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: I've seen some of the best relationships crumble and I
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: didn't even see it coming, and I was their financial advisor.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: Like you just don't know sometimes who you're going to
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: bed with, and that can be heartbreaking as well, and
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: not a reality that you want to plan for. You go, No,
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: my husband will never ask any partner who's been cheated
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: on if they thought that their partner would cheat on them. Oh,
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: that's exactly right.
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: And as families do, we see relationships breakdown for a
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: myriad of different reasons, and most of those reasons could
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: never have been predicted at the commencement of the relationship.
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: So you know, as you say extramarital affair, couldn't see
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: that one coming. It could be due to illness, whether
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: that mental or physical.
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: There could be.
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: Financial issues that you know, you could just couldn't predict.
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: So there are just so many reasons as to you know,
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: why the relationship might break down.
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: If you could predict it, you probably wouldn't have got
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: married to them.
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: That's what I always say, Like, who enters into a
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: marriage thinking that they're gonna, you know, break It's going
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: to break down in the future.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: It's just not going to have that. Sorry. The average
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: wedding these days, I think cost sixty two thousand dollars. Like,
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: we're not doing that because we're like, oh whatever, money
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: doesn't masher. Like, we're doing it because we think it's
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: an investment into our future, and that is our future.
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: And so I think that that's where we need to
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: balance the conversations about being oh yes, this is really
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: heavy and it is really hard, but it's also the
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: reality of the world. And like, I want to live
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: in a Disneyland when it comes to my relationship. But
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: the reality of the world is one in three marriages
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: and in divorce, and I think that that's only rising,
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: which is really sad. But at the same time, let's
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: just be prepared, prepare for the worst, and when the
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: best happens, money win. We're all in a really good position, exactly,
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: completely agree. So if we then flip it and not
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: go what are the red flags? We go what are
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: the healthiest things you've seen when you look at all
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: of the separations that you've worked on, what do the
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: healthiest financial exits have in common? And then also tell
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: me about the messy ones.
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, so look, yeah, there's definitely some hallmark features of
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: our more sort of amicable settlements versus the really messy ones.
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'll start with the amicable separations. Yeah, the
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: nice one. That's how we would like it to happen, exactly.
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: So the first sort of sign or trend I should
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: say with an amicable separation is there's often full financial disclosure,
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: which happens very early on in the piece. It means
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: that both parties have contributed to coming up with a
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: joint balance sheet, something that you would have been very
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: familiar as a financial advisor, and therefore both parties feel
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: fully informed to be able to make a decision as
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: to their property settlement. So the matters resolved pretty quickly
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: with those ones. The other is as I mentioned before,
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: where parties are able to negotiate the settlement between themselves.
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: So ideally they would have both gone off and received
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: legal advice through an initial consultation with separate lawyers, and
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: then they'll come together and devise a property settlement based
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: on that advice that they've both received, and then the
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: lawyers will simply draw up that settlement in settlement documents
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: and register it with the court, or we can enter
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: into a financial agreement. Then the other tip that I
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: always give to my clients if they want it to
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: be an amicable separation, is that they're going to have
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: to be able to compromise. They're going to have to
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: make concessions and just walk away and drop some arguments
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: because you're not going to win worth every single point
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: that you want to make in a family law separation.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: It's just not going to happen and you can get
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: really aggressive about that, especially if you're divor seeing somebody
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: who you believe has done wrong by you because you
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: really want to get back at them, or you really
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: want to make it even, or no, they owe me
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: for something, your piece is worth more, exactly, and the
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: family court system is not the place for vindication, no, sadly, sadly,
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: because it would be a lot more fun and a
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: lot more dramatic, and probably a lot more on TV
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: if it.
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: Was exactly so, you know, Unfortunately the reality of family
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: law is very different to what you see on TV.
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like, and what you see on TV is always American, Yeah,
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: and that is not our system. Unfortunate does not happen
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: in the courtroom like that. Damn it very boring. It's like, oh, yes,
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: this is the settlement figure and you go, yes, cool,
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: how boring. I'm sorry, So tell me about the messiest ones.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: Like you said before, one of the hallmarks of a
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: good system is full financial disclosure. And I think that
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: that's really important. And I can almost bet that the
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: messiest ones are hiding pieces.
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: They obviously have the opposite traits or trends, and probably
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: some of our longest standing matters that have ended up
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: in litigation. Property matters are where there has been financial
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: non disclosure, and in those cases we have to issue
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: court proceedings so that we can then issue subpoenas for
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: the production of documents that we have not been able
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: to maintain or I should say sorry, obtain through lawyers letters. Yes,
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: so those matters are very expensive. They are in the
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: court for many many years, often involve third parties having
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: to be joined to the proceedings. So the lesson there
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: is just disclosure documents, so you don't have to end
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: up in the system.
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because you're going to end up paying all of
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: it inter legal fees. And like as much as lawyers
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: like getting paid, don't get me wrong, they're also like, guys,
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: this is dumb. You're wasting your money. Let's just sort
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: it out. Yeah, let's just sort it out. Because I'm
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: also a bit bored of this process as well, Like,
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: come on, guys, Like I remember when I first got
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: into financial advice, you know, ad joined to practice, and
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: we were talking about the clients that we were taking on,
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: and like we'd do these briefings before each client meeting
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: and they'd be like, this is the history of the
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: client with the practice, this is what they've done, the like,
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: and it would always get really juicy, like I feel
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: like it gets juicy out the more money people have.
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: They'd be like, Okay, so this is this person and
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: the woman that's coming with him is his third wife,
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: and we deal with the other wives like it would
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: just be so messy and I'd be like, okay, lokey. Interesting.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: But also the amount of times I'd be told, well,
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: she's coming in, but not the new wife because we
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: haven't settled the last divorce and that's been going on
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: for ten years, or that's been going on for fifteen years,
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: And I go, wait, what it takes that long? And
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: in some cases it really does.
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Look, I mean I don't think I've had a
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: matter that's run for ten years, thank goodness, Oh my gosh.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: However, we do have some matters.
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: That run three, four, five, six years, and often it
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: is around this financial nondisclosure type issues because people just
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: won't disclose what is there, and then you have to
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: undertake that really detailed analysis, often with forensic accountants involved,
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: to try and work out, well, what is actually in.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: The house here and where did they get this and
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: where did they move it to and exactly.
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: So we often spend a lot of our time as
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: family lawyers at that second step, which is identifying and
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: valuing the asset pool that's available quick.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: So the five steps can take five years sometimes.
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's that step of you know, basically coming
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: up with an agreed balance sheet that often takes the
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: most time and the other stuff can you know, then
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: be sorted out.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: So yeah, and I feel like there's probably one case
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: or one situation that's really stuck with you because it
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: maybe has fundamentally changed how you think about money and relationships.
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: What is that?
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: Look, there's probably a few, but there's more than one, babe, Yeah,
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: there's a lot.
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: Unfortunately, one of the more recent files that I've had
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: involved unfortunately financial abuse, which is a form of family violence.
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: So my client, she was working, but she was not
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: the primary income earner. Her husband had full control of
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: the financial circumstances in their family. She had to ask
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: his permission to purchase anything, even down to if she
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: wanted to purchase a coffee or a smoothie from the
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: local cafe, she had to get his consent to do so.
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: He much preferred her to make those drinks at home
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: due to the expense. So the problem that we then
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: had is she then decided pretty quickly that she wanted
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: to leave that relationship, pulled the pin and hadn't sort
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: of put the safeguards in place, and he then cut
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: off all access to finances. And so in that situation,
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: it really reiterated to me the importance of having an
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: emergency fund, which she definitely could have had if she
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: had sort of got the advice beforehand, as opposed to,
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: you know, receiving that advice after she'd actually moved out
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: with the children.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: It actually breaks my heart because that's my number one
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: recommendation is kind of and I say this all the time,
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: get your ducks in a row before you let them know.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: And the reason I say that is because if you're
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: planning on divorcing somebody, you've never seen them in that circumstance. Like,
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: and I won't say that there aren't valid reasons, but
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: sometimes for people, it can feel like you are ripping
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: a rug out from under them that they didn't even
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: see coming, and they will clutch at anything to gain
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: some level of control. So, like, before you do this,
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: where does your pay go? Do you have your own bank? Accounts,
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: even just setting up your bank accounts, organizing where your
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: salary gets paid to. We might not be changing it
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: yet because we don't want to, like, you know, put
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: any flags up that there's something wrong. But you know
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: that the bank account exists, and you know the HR
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: forms exist to change where that pay is going to
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: go and when you're going to tell them where's your super,
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: where's their super? Like it taking like we doing a
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: little bit of forensic accounting ourselves while that's maybe open.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: So you might walk around the house and take photos
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: of all the bills. You might walk around the house
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: and take photos of your credit card statement, your home
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: alone statements. You know, go through the office and work out,
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: oh okay, there's some share trading account information. I always recommend,
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: and like you might recommend something different. I just love clean.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: I always recommend setting up an extra email account and
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: you just send everything there so that you're not like
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: bogging down your personal email account and you have to
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: filter through the iconic emails to find your divorce information.
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: There's just another email account that you can flick things
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: to as things happen. Important documentication, identification. This is going
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: to be a bit scary but where are your children's
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: passports like things like that, where you go. My husband
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: would never fled the country with my kids. Never say
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: never exactly, and that's really scary. But get your ducks
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: in a row before you let your husband or your
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: wife know that you're planning on leaving them, exactly.
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: And one of the things that's come up sort of
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: time and time again for us now that we're obviously
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: in this digital age, most documents and files are stored electronically, yes,
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: so it's critical if you are the one leaving to
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: make sure that you've not only taken your electronic device
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: with you if it's yours and contains those files, but
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: otherwise signing out on all devices that might be remaining
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: in the home so that your ex cannot access messages.
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: Three kids iPad. The kids iPad's a big one. We
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: see that coming up a lot. So obviously people have
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: signed on through the Apple account and as we just.
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: Want Disney class yeah exactly, so like it was wholesome.
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: These are all the things that you don't think about
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: when you're in a crisis situation. But there's absolutely I
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: think we could come up with a pretty good list
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: between you and I I think we'd be good.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: You've just yeah, said some.
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: Other ones that I think could be good to add
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: to my list. So yeah, absolutely critical to think about
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: these things if you want to be best prepared.
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and do it when you're not in vital flight mode,
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: because like our brains are so scrambled and you don't
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: know how that conversation is going to go. They could go, oh, well,
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: so glad you asked. I've been waiting for this day.
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: I didn't know how to bring it up, and then
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: you have the most amicable warce ever, or they could
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: fly absolutely off the chain. Want you out vice versa, Like,
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: let's just sit back a little bit and go, Okay,
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: I've made this decision. I feel at peace with this decision.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: It's what I want have. I got everything that I
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: need access to, And I think that that's where you know,
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: even if your partner knows your email loggin, because like
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: my husband knows, like I like, I've got no privacy
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: in my life, Like not in a bad way, but
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: like he'll pick up my phone and be like, oh,
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: I'm just checking the weather whatever. He knows my codes,
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: he knows my passwords, which is why I think this
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: separate email account can be really helpful. I think that's
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: a correct idea. They can't go through my phone and
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: delete things. I can also email myself and then delete
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: it from my outbooks, so they don't even know about
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: that email address existing. But I can have my share
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: trading documents, I can have licenses, I can have agreement.
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: I can just email myself everything that I think I need.
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: Hopefully you don't. Hopefully you turn up to Claire's off
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: first and you go, I've got all my ducks in
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: a row. I have absolutely everything, and Claire goes, wow,
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: you really have done a lot. All I need is
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: and you'll be like, great, I don't have to go
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: away and do even more homework or snooping or trying
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: to work out where the hell my stuff is. Yes,
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: So for me, that is a really good way of
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: protecting it because it can kind of be like a
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: burner account.
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: And it's hard because if you've put in a long
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: relationship of you know, ten, fifteen, twenty years, and then
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: you separate and you have to all of a sudden
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: find all of these documents from over the course of
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: that relationship, you go, I don't even know where to start. Yeah,
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: so if you're sort of compiling those documents, you know
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: as you go, it just makes the whole process so
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: much easier.
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and even just clean. And I unfortunately have spoken
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: to a lot of people in these situations just the basics.
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: So where do you bank? Do you know which bank
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: you're banking with, because if it is a financially abusive situation,
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: you might not actually know where all of the money
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: is being held. And also you have access to you
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: and this is just me speaking from experience. All you
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: have access to is an amex. So you know that
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: you put all of your costs on a credit card,
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: but where does the money come from when you pay
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: it off? Like, can we just maybe look into that
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: so that you go, Okay, well, I know we bank
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: with CommBank, Yes, And at least you've got a good
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: starting point. So that's where we need to start documenting
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: even the simplest things, because I promise they're the things
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: that are going to cause a lot of friction during
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: the process, like, oh, so where do your bank? What's
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: in your bank? No clue exactly.
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: And I think that comes back to the point that
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: it's so important for couples to have regular conversations about
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: money and finance so that both of them are on
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: the same page. It still might be that some person
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: takes control of the finance. Is absolutely fine, but the
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: other person needs to have an understand of what's there.
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: As you say, who do they bank with? If something
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: happens to the other person, they're going to need to
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: sort of take over pretty quickly. So I think it
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: just drives that message home. Yeah, agreed.
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: And if someone is thinking of separating from their partner,
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: to wrap up that part of the conversation, is there
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: anything else you think they should do first, apart from
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: what we've just discussed.
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: Look, I think if they do know who they're banking
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: with and have access to that information, I often advise
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: clients to go to the bank and request joint signatories on.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: Mart You can do that account easily, too, very easy.
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: The banks are great now. They understand, you know, what
• 49:37
  Speaker 3: happens when people are going through a divorce, and so
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: they act very very quickly, which is fabulous. The other
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: one I've already mentioned is having an emergency fund or
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: access to funds in a separate bank account. Potentially the
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: other thing if there is family violence, it's really, really
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: important to devise a safety plan before leaving, but is
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: likely to involve going to get some initial legal advice
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: and then potentially even taking out an intervention order to
• 50:08
  Speaker 3: protect both the applicant and the children.
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: The other thing that we've already touched on is gathering
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: important documents, So I don't think we need to sort
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: of go over that anymore.
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: No, you're going to make your burnery email account and
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: then you're going to go to Claire and she's gonna
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: go You've been speaking to Victoria, Yeah, exactly.
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: And yeah, I always advise clients if they've got children
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: and they're the primary care remove the passports, remove the
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: birth certificates, just in case.
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it sounds really dramatic, but I prefer you
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: to be dramatic. And like I've said this to clients
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: in the past, I'm like, you don't have to hide
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: them in your house, drop them off at your mum's place,
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: give them to a trusted friend. If push comes to
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: shove and your partner is like, where are the kids'
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: passports and you're not in a situation where you're planning
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: on going on holiday, you'd be like, why is that, honey?
• 50:55
  Speaker 4: Oh?
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: I don't know we've just moved, or you know, the
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: house is a mess. They could be anywhere I would
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: prefer to have that confrontation, and you'd be like, oh, like,
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: I actually don't know. That's crazy. We'll look for them together,
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: then find that they were looking for them for an
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: ulterior motive that would have put you in a really
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: bad situation exactly.
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: And then the only other point I wanted to make,
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: and we have sort of.
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: Touched on this before, is go and get your legal advice. Okay,
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: I need to butt in there. Yes, you've just told
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: me all these situations where women don't have access to finance,
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: and like I feel like all of us have in
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: our head, divorce lawyers are expensive. What happens in that situation?
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: Can I come and see you when I have no cash? Look,
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: every law firm is different as to how they sort
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: of charge for an initial consultation. I know that there
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: some are some services where you'll receive a half an
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: hour free consultation if you're referred through certain agencies. Otherwise,
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: you know, family lawyers are usually pretty understanding about you know,
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: a party situation, and if you know, the fee has
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: to be deferred or you.
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: Know they can't come up with the money straight away,
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: then there's usually some understanding around.
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: That because it's not even maybe I do have the money,
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: but I don't want to take you don't have access
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: hents straight away, but I don't want to take it
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: out of my account because I don't want my husband
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: seeing that I am paying legal Why are you paying
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: legal fees, honey, because like you know, they're not cheap
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: like it at a minimum is a couple of hundred
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: dollars for your first consul, if not thousands, like that
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: would trigger some alarm bells exactly.
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: So what we often see clients doing is borrowing money
• 52:28
  Speaker 3: from family or friends for that initial consultation if they
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: have to, and if they've got those concerns so that
• 52:34
  Speaker 3: there's no sort of transaction that's coming up on the
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: joint bank account, and then you know, they decide what
• 52:40
  Speaker 3: they want to do after that initial consultation.
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: Do they want to proceed?
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: If they do, then there's going to be a separation
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: of finances, you know, at least an interim one.
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: Probably, But yeah, absolutely that issue does come up for us.
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: But it's okay because if you're in that situation, just
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: ask the question. You've got to ask the questions. Don't
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: say oh, I can't see a lawyer. You can. There
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: is a way. You just need to start looking. Because
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: this podcast is obviously national. It's not in Victoria. There's
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: this specific firm. Just start doing some googling, ask around.
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: And it's national. It's a national jurisdiction family law. So absolutely,
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: just pick up the phone, start the conversation. Knowledge is
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: power at the end of the day. And you know,
• 53:20
  Speaker 3: I have clients come to me in that initial consultation
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: and say, oh, my husband said I wasn't going to
• 53:25
  Speaker 3: get anything.
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: Of course, prefer you guys, not to go and get
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: somebody who's going to back you exactly.
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: And so you know, once they have that initial consultation,
• 53:35
  Speaker 3: they just feel so relieved that they've had the advice
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: that they are going to get something. Yeah, all depends
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: on that five step analysis that we need to go
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: through to work out, you know, what the percentage is
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: going to be. So yeah, I couldn't stress enough get
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: in to see a lawyer at least for that initial advice.
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. And one last question before we finish up, Claire,
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: you've worked inside the system for literally years handed the
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: power today to rewrite any part of Australia's family law
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: to better protect women financially. What are you changing? First look,
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 54:10
  Speaker 3: Because this is sort of on my mind at the moment,
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: is I would probably change the law in respect of
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: the contributions for females.
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: Where I thought you would go there, Yeah, I was
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: talking about that's on my mind at the moment.
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: So, and I've had quite a few clients I've acted
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: for and I've seen the impact that it's had on
• 54:28
  Speaker 3: their financial situation, you know, and the fact that they
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: haven't been able to receive a greater proportion of the
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: asset pool based on those I guess double contributions that
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: they've made.
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: So I would love to see a case that challenged
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: that position. If you're in the situation where you can
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: fund that, call me exactly so that you know, women
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: get what they're entitled to at the end of the day, exactly.
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: And I hate the fact that a precedence has to
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: be set, I know, like, can't we just change the law? No,
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: sadly not. No. I'm sure it will happen though it will.
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: We've just got to be patient. It has been so
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: lovely having you on the podcast today. Thank you for
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: sharing your time and your brain with us. This has
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: been honestly a much needed conversation that I know our
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: community is going to get a lot out of, whether
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: they're thinking about it, whether they're never going to think
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: about it. Like having this information is power not just
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: for you in your situation, but like imagine if you're
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: out for brunch with a girlfriend and she goes, I
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: don't know how to tell you. I think I'm going
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: to divorce, justin like great, So there's this five step
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: process and here's a podcast, and that podcast has a
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: resource on their website for free. Like how empowering to
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: have these conversations as women. I just I'm really grateful
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: to have had you on the show. Thank you so
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: much for having me. I really appreciate it, and I've
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: enjoyed it. Oh it was it was fun. I want
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: to talk more about divorce, but like in like the
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: pervy way, like there's just so many questions I have.
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: I'm always available, just sit down, say less, guys. Of course,
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: I will put all of Claire's links in the show
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: notes so that you can find her. But if you
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: do have more questions about money and about relationships. Please
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: lead them in the comments on Spotify. I might just
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: be able to convince Claire to come back and answer
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: them for us. And if this episode opened your eyes,
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: I would love it if you could share it with
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: the women in your life so that we can all
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: be better protected and better prepared. We'll see you on Friday, guys.
• 56:21
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• 56:24
  Speaker 4: in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She's
• 56:28
  Speaker 4: on the Money exists purely for educational purposes and should
• 56:31
  Speaker 4: not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision.
• 56:35
  Speaker 4: If you do choose to buy a financial product, read
• 56:37
  Speaker 4: the PDS TMD and obtain appropriate financial advice tailored towards
• 56:41
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• 56:42
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