Latest / Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor / Embracing the Experiment Mindset for Personal Growth

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Embracing the Experiment Mindset for Personal Growth · Hardiness with Dr Paul Taylor

• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Tams and Simmons. Welcome to the podcast.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Paul, excited to be here.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: I'm excited as well.
• 0:17
  Speaker 3: Now your book caught my eye the experiment mindset. I
• 0:21
  Speaker 3: always say to people, I'm a big fan of running
• 0:24
  Speaker 3: your own experiments. So give our listeners a bit of
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: an idea about your background and what led you to
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: decide to write this book.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a bit of a long, windy road, as
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: most of our stories tend to be, Paul. But I
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: grew up a little girl in regional South Australia and
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: I used to say that I wanted to be the
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: boss when I grew up, and I'm not sure I
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: knew what that meant at the time. I can reflect
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: on it and see it now, but at the time,
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: as a little girl growing up in the eighties, as
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: you can imagine, that was met with a little condescending
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: on the head. I saw a steer into a more
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: appropriate career, like maybe a teacher or a nurse, and
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: so I think that was the reason. By the time
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: I got to the end of my schooling, I really
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: didn't know what I wanted to do with myself, which
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: isn't unusual, but for me it was a bit of
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: a point of frustration. So I started a double degree
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: in journalism and international studies, decided that wasn't for me.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: My dad went and got a chest X ray while
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: I was still trying to work out what I wanted
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: to do, and he said, oh, the lady who did
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: that was really nice. I could see you doing something
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: like that one day, and so now I have a
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: medical imaging degree.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Just because your dad said interesting.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I can still remember being kind of front row
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: in the lecture theater on my first day there was
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: a hand X ray up on the up on the screen,
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: and thinking, oh, what am I doing here? This is
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: really not what I wanted to do. But I did it,
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: you know, three year degree, did a job, got good marks,
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: and thankfully I got a great job straight out of
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: UNI for a medical imaging company here in South Australia
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: that was owned by a larger corporate healthcare company. And
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: so I don't know if any of your listeners grew
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: up in a regional area or in the country, but
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: I feel like we had a bit of a limited
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: exposure to what was really out there in terms of
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: career pathways and opportunities. My dad was in local government.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: My mum worked you know, different jobs and ended up
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: being a receptionist and then in insurance. That when I
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: ended up in this corporate health care environment, I had
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: a bit of a look behind the scenes. There's all
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: of these other things that you can do with your life.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: You know, there's there's general management, there was marketing, that's finance,
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: There's all of these things going on that kind of
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: brought this business to life and made things tick. So
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: in my three month review, when you know, your graduate interview,
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: they said to me, what do you want a specially
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: in terms and do you want to do ultrasound X RAYCT.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: So you're really.
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I said, you know what I actually interested in
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: what makes this business tick? I think they want to
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: go into leadership. And so little did I know at
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: the time, that put me on a fast track to leadership.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: So I found myself. Wasn't much more than a year later.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: I was pretty fresh out of UNI and I was
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: running my first medical imaging clinic and only a few
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: years after that got promoted into an area manager role
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: where I had eight clinics and a team of over
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: one hundred and a multimillion dollar budget that I was
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: taking care of it. I was still in my mid twenties.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: So I'd done it. I'd made my little self proud,
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: and I'd become the boss that wasn't what I thought
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: it was going to be, and I found it really tough.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: I just spent the first three years drowning in that role,
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: and my health and my relationships were suffering as I
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: tried to, I think, prove myself in that really demanding role.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: And I was just way for that tap on the
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: shoulder to be told that I actually had no idea
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: what I was doing with this raging case of imposter syndrome.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: But on the outside, Paul, I look like I was
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: performing right. I was hitting all the boxes, my clinics
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: were doing really well. I was ticking those KPIs. So
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: the people that were above me, you know, my managers
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: and the EXAC team that were wanting to keep me there.
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: So I did all of the leadership and management training
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: that I could. But what I found was I would
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: go out and do the training, and I did a
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: deployment of management and leadership twice just for good measure.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: But you'd go out there and you'd get your certificate
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: and you'd come back into the workplace and nothing challenged.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: You know, I could run a good meeting, but the
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: self doubt, the imposter syndrome, the relationships that I was
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: trying to navigate, it really wasn't nudging. So I actually
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: was going to leave and just take a job back
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: in a public holiday, public holiday, public hospital on the tools,
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: and I got talked.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: To a bag as a radiographer.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, this management thing isn't isn't for me. I
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: can't do it. I'm you know, stressed to the eyeballs.
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: But I got talked into staying. And my boss at
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: the time was great. He was really supportive and he
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: said to me, we'll put you through an MBA. We
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: really want you to stay, and I said, thank you.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: You know, a great opportunity. But I've got a lot
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: of mentors in this business who can help me with
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: the business stuff, but it's the people's stuff that's doing
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: my head in. I really need some more help in
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: that space. So I went out and I found another
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: psychology cause it was called a Diploma of Modern Psychology.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: And the only place in the world that you could
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: do this program was up in NUSA. At the time,
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: I had a one year old so I upprooted our
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: family where we went up to NUSA. It was a
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: five week intensive from eight am to six pm every day,
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: and we were learning all of these different tools of
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: applied psychology and it spanned across philosophy neuroscience. Was a
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: really cool program. But what I loved about it the
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: most is that we weren't just learning, you know, learning
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: ideas and learning topics to take back into the workplace
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: and hope for the best. We were actually learning and applying,
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: learning and applying. So by the time we got out
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: of it, not only had I had this toolkit that
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: I could use to help people, but I doun ale
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: of this work on myself. And when I got back
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: into the workplace, things transformed because I had changed. The
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: way that people were responding to me really changed, and
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: the way that I was responding changed, and I was
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: starting to enjoy the leadership role, something that I didn't
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: really think was possible for me. I was getting great
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: outcomes and I was building really solid relationships with people.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: So it really turned it around for me.
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: Did you imposter syndrome disappear at this stage?
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: Do you know? It didn't disappear, but it transformed for me.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: I still get it. I still get the feeling of,
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: you know, I don't know if I can do this.
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: I I've been not more than I can chew here.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: But now I see it as an inevitable part of growth,
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: of you know, just doing something bigger than what I've
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: done before. Of course, you know, I've never written a
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: book before, and suddenly I was writing a book. It's
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: normal to not feel like the type of person who
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: writes books when you haven't written a book before. So
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: I've transformed what imposter syndrome means to me, and I
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: think now i've been coaching for ten years, I can
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: see how comed it is for people who are trying
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: something new to experience these feelings of imposter.
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: I was going to ask you, because I know you've
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: done a lot of coaching over the years, like, just hi, prevalent,
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: do you find that imposter syndrome.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: Is I've met one person who didn't resonate with the
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: idea of impost feelings really hard.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: Were they are a narcissist?
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: No, she wasn't.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: She wasn't she was I'm joking.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: No, I get it. I get it because I remember
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: thinking when I met this woman, you know, what is
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: it in your history and your background and your upbringing
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: allows you. She was a CEO, She was an impressive
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: lady and a lovely, down to earth person, but she
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: just said, I've never really had that feeling before. So
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: she was certainly the exception, not the rule. Though, everyone
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: that I have worked with at some point has had
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: a feeling of imposter syndrome. And the higher I got
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: up the chain, now I work with founder and CEO
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: is really really successful, you know, outwardly people and it's
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: almost given that they're going to have these experiences.
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: And have you noticed anything in people who have imposter
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: syndrome that kind of holds them back and there's crippling
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: And then other people were imposter syndrome actually dribes them
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: on to perform.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: It's one of the reasons that I like the experiment
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: mindset is because it encourages people to understand that you
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: can feel the feelings and find a way to move
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: forward and take the learnings. Are the people who aren't
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: able to push through see the impostive feelings as a
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: problem or a you know, personal shortcoming. They really believe
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: this I'm not good enough for you know, who am
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: I to do? This. They don't understand that it's it's
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: a common experience, that it's a normal part of growth,
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: almost inevitable, and the people who can move through, I think,
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: see it as an opportunity for growth. You know. I'm
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: feeling like I'm you know, do I not belong here?
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: And they're able to still find a way to take
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: action anyway and gather the evidence that yeah, I can
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: do this. Have you had the experience sort of imposter syndrome?
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: I should have checked, oh oh yeah, one hundred percent. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: for sure, and it probably it probably just it's a
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: little bit for me. It's a little bit like athletes too,
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: all say that they want more confidence, and confidence comes
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: from knowing that you've done the work and from from
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: that feeling of self efficcy and competence.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: And I think it's the same with imposter syndrome and my.
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: I think the little tale of my imposter syndrome probably
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: got squashed whenever I eventually got my pH D. I
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: don't know why that is, but it was just just
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: just is what it is. But coming back to you,
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: sorry because I did divert you from from from your
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: journey into imposter because I just thought there be so
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: many people who resonate with that.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: So let's come back to you.
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: So you're doing you've done your positive psychology if you're
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: finding it's having an impact and on your on your
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: leadership in the way that you're interacting, So continue to
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: you from the read up to NYE and writing a book.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So, once I made that change and made that realization,
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: I had this strong drive to want to help other
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: people to not have to go through what I did
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: because I was, you know, I was on the edge
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: of just stepping away from leadership in my life could
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: have looked very, very different if I had made that call.
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: So I wanted to give other people the opportunity to
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: find something that could help them through those early years
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: of leadership at the time is what I was doing.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: So I created a leadership development program called lead ID
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: and it was designed for emerging leaders to help to
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: understand themselves and to work through some of those barriers
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: that actually get in the way of leadership, because I
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: think that needs to come before you're doing the practical leadership.
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: Here is how to run a meeting. We need to
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: break down some of the things that create a barrier
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: in interactions with people. So I created a program around that.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: It was designed for emerging leaders, but somehow I ended
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: up attracting CEOs and founders and or senior leaders into
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: this program and it was really successful and people were saying, Oh,
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: this is incredible, I need to bring this into my organization.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: And so I ended up going out and creating leadership
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: programs and consulting into other organizations. Because I built this
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: other external skill set, I got promoted into an organizational
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: development manager role. Internally, I was still working in the
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: medical evagings company, and things have evolved, you know. I
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: found what I wanted to be when I grew up.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: I was really good at it. I loved it. I
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: was making an impact. And yeah, ten years later now
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: I've worked with some of the biggest organizations, high profile
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: CEOs and founders, to help them get the best out
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: of themselves, their teams, and their organizations.
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: So how do you how have you what have you
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: noticed about the change in both leadership and organizational development
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: over the last sort of ten or fifteen years. Have
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: you noticed anything in particular that sticks out for you?
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I really have, I think in the most recently
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: over the last five years or so, I've had some
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: people that have been in the leadership game for a
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: really long time coming to me and saying that the
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: old way of doing things just isn't working anymore. The
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: idea that you just set your KPI and you set
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: your goal for people, and you put a big bonus
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: at the end of it, and people just put their
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: heads down and work to get the job done. It
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: isn't working so well anymore. People are getting burnt out, frustrated.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: We can see the level in the most recent Gallup survey.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you're across that. The Gallop State
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: of the Workplace report came out just last month, and
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: we're seeing thriving go down and the level of engagement
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: had been slowly increasing. It's still dismal. It's twenty something,
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: but it has been all yes, it is. I think
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: it's something like twenty three percent. It's very very low,
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: but it had been steadily rising. Or we hit COVID
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: and it took a little bit of a dip, it
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: went back up, and then it started declining over the
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: last couple of years. So we're investing all of this
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: money into wellbeing initiatives. We're investing all of this money
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: into personal and professional development, into yoga classes, into meditation
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: for workplaces, into you know, trying to create environments that
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: people can thrive in, and it is not having the
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: impact that we want it to have.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: But if you like, I find that, Sorry, sorry just
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: to jump in there.
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: I find because you know, I've kind of worked in
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: the workplace wellness stuff and there's so many businesses that
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: just do piece meal workplace wellness stuff, you know, like
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: yoga classes and meditation, with no actual strategy behind it.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: And all they're doing is providing resources.
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: To the people who would probably go and do those
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: things anyway in their spare time.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: Is that preaching to the converted?
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, and it's not done at a strategic level
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: in most cases.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: Is kind of what I found. I don't know if
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: you've noticed anything similar.
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: So so then let let's let's then talk about the book.
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: So what what was the stimulus for your writing books?
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: So you're running these leadership programs? Why they jump from
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: that to the book? Was it to be able to
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: scale things? Was it just because people like like with
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: me kept saying, have you got a book?
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: When you're writing a book? That was that me? And
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: driver for me, Oh yeah, bloody well, she'd write one.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: Well, the book wasn't the point for me at all.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: The book kind of came to me. I was already
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: doing the work in the background. So the reason that
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: the experiment mindset generally came to me that body of
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: work was built on the fact that I was working
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: with really experienced, smart professionals, people who knew more about
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: leadership than I did. Right, They've plugged into all of
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: the podcasts, they're reading all the books, they've been over
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: to Harvard and done leadership programs. They know all of
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: the stuff. But there was just this gap between what
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: they knew and what they were doing. And that's where
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: the experiment mindset really grew from. Was what's going on here?
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: We have saturated in information and knowledge. We should be
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: the fittest, the most engaged, the most emotionally intelligent outstead
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: of human beings that have ever.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: Worked, with all of our finances sorted, and yes.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: Exactly, we've got all of this knowledge at our fingertips.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: Why is it not translating into action? And that's where
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: the experiment mindset was born from. So I'd kind of
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: done that, done the work, and the understanding behind it,
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: and I was just using it in my workshops. I
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: was using it as a coaching methodology, I was speaking
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: doing keynotes on it, and I was on a Speakers
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: Bureau website as to experiment. Mindset was one of the
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: things that I spoke about, and thankfully my commissioning editor
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: was just looking around to see what was out there
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: and came across me and came across the topic and
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: sent me an email saying, Hey, Tempsen, have you ever
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: thought of writing a book?
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: Oh? So it literally did.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: Arrived to me and speaking of imposter syndrome, I actually
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: forwarded that email onto a coach I was working with
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: at the time and said, is this a scam? And
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: she said, no, terms and this is a wily email address.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: You should definitely write back to her and say, yes,
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: I have thought of writing a book, because you know,
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: the truth is, I had thought of writing a book,
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: but it probably would have been in ten years time,
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: once I had all of the answers, once I had
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: more experience under my FLF and you know, as we do,
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: kicking the can down the road completely against my own methodology.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: But by the time I got to write in the outline,
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: I realized that oh that this is a book, and
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: this is a very well timed book and absolutely needed
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: and a group from there.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: So let's dive into the book. Actually, because you alluded to.
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: Something that I talk about a lot and when I
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: particularly when I talk about health behavior chains, it is
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: the knowing doing gap. So lots of people know what
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: they need to do, but they're not doing it. And
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: I say, they're waiting for the motivation fairy a lot
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: of people, right.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: So but actually, before we dive into it, you did
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: mention I've heard that you've talked about podcasts and books.
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: You describe them as high quality procrastination tools.
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: What do you actually mean by that?
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: Well, I think this is one of the reasons that
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: we have access to all of this information but we're
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: not necessarily progressing. Is because we're mistaking consuming information with
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: progress that I might think that, oh, I need some
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: help with my leadership, so I'm going to go and
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: buy five You know, you can see the books behind me.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: I do love a good book, But it's are we
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: just consuming this information and then thinking that we're getting
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: somewhere when actually we're not applying what we learn, Because
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: the application of the knowledge is the scary bit. That's
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: when we have to stretch our identity or put ourselves
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: out there, or put ourselves at the risk of failing potentially.
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: And so it's much easier for me to buy another
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: course or get a coach, or you know, buy another book,
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: rather than actually testing what I already know to see
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: if it works.
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember, I think it was Sir Francis Bieken
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: famously said over one hundred years ago, maybe a couple
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: of hundred knowledge is power, and I take umbradge with that.
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: I say, consistently applied knowledge is power, not just knowledge
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: in and of itself. And so that's kind of what
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: you're getting at, is that we're listening to all these podcasts,
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: we're reading all of these books, we're thinking that we're growing,
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: but if we're not actually implementing them, it's just procrastination.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: And you're bringing things.
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: Good about it right, because you're actually you're you're doing something.
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: It's like if people remember back to school and university,
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: it's like having the tidiest room you've ever had during exams.
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: If you bring you know, it doesn't want to do
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: this hard shit right because it knows that it's going
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: to be uncomfortable, But it's like, I need to be busy,
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: and then it just redirects attention to doing something busy
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: that makes you feel.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: Like you're actually being productive.
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: Right for me, it's like it's like emails, right, and
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: work like active bodies, and people get up stressed and
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: they think they're going to be doing something and their
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: answering bloody emails rather than doing important stuff. So I
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: get where you're coming to from that. But but then,
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: because when we read a lot of these things, right,
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: and we're hearing about scientific studies that sometimes are well
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: represented on podcasts.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: Sometimes they're not so well represented on podcasts.
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: But whatever it is is like study A said this
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: and study B said this, and there I should go
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: and do that.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: Now you talk about.
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: That it can be an issue relying on population level
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: research to make personal decisions.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: Why do you think that that is a problem.
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: Well, population level research that might be you know, successful
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: to say sixty percent of the population, and that's that's
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: meaningful enough that it is going to be published as
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: this isn't evidence that thing to take action on, and
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: it's a good place to start, you know, I'd rather
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: someone be using a population study than their favorite fitness
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: influencer online to make the decisions around what they're doing
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: with their health and their nutrition or whatever may be.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: But we still don't know if it's going to work
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: for us. I talk about treating yourself as your own
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: end of one, study, your own experiment. I give the example.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: And then this is the opposite of what I just
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: talked about, because it's me using a fitness influencer to
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: to make my own nutrition decisions. But I had read
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: the Rich Roles book at the time, and I had
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: learned about plant based eating, and I thought I'm going
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: to give this a go. But I treated myself as
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: my own en of one, right. I decided I was
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: going to do this plant based eating thing for a
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: month then just see how it worked for me and
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: what Rich Role found. The people who don't follow him,
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: I think most of us know who is now that
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: is an ultra athlete who did who was really successful
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: with a plant based diet. For him, it turned him
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: into this incredible ultra athlete. For me, it made me
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: an emink and I'm able to exercise and barely function.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: I was exhausted. So within two weeks I had this
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: data of you know, for my body that didn't work
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: so well, and there's other ways that I can that
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: I can eat and feel my body that work better.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: If I wasn't treating myself as my own experiment, maybe
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: I would think that was a shortcoming of me. Maybe
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: I didn't do it properly, or you know, I did
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: it wrong, and I could get hard on myself and
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: I could use that as something that stops me from
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: progressing my health and nutrition in any way. But I
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: just use that as data of Okay, this one didn't work,
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: and then we move on to the next thing to
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: keep testing and trying what works for me. And that's
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: why I encourage people to treat themselves as their own
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: end of one because instead of trying to succeed or fail,
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: instead of saying, you know, oh that didn't work, I'm
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: going to throw the baby out with the bath water,
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: it's just gathering data and wisdom that allows you to
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: build your own picture of what success is you and
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: what works.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Look, I'm a big fan of that as well.
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: I'll tell you what really brought this home to me
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: while we're the first time that it was brought home
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: to me was when I was doing my masters in
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: exer sorry masters in nutrition, and it was a specialization
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: sports nutrition. And my master's project was we were taking
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: a bunch of people and putting them on a high
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: carbohydrate diet. At four I think was a week or
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: maybe ten days, they did a low glacimic index diet
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: and then they did what's called the wash up period
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: and they swapped over to a high glacimic index diet.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: But they'd done a.
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: Time trial running time trial at the start for bastline
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: and after each diet just to see, you know, what
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: diet had an impact, right, And I remember this guy
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: who I knew well. He was a runner and a
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: very very good runner, and he did the low GI
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: diet and everything was all good, and then he did
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: the high GI diet and he couldn't even finish running
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: for ninety minutes, like it completely destroyed him.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: But other people did really well on it.
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: And the experiment was really messy, right, but we ended
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: up we got statistical significance.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: But underneath, and this is what I think people need
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: to understand, is what they do is they average out
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: all of the data and then they see if it
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: reaches statistical significance. So just for people to generally peed's
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: less than zero point zero h five. That basically means
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: there's less than a five percent that it's due to chance.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: Right, So it's I can never say absolutely.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: But.
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: Underneath that, you look at almost any experiment, there are
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: non responders, there's responders, there's hyper responders.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: And that's why you don't know where you would be, right.
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: You could be a responder, you could be a non responder,
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: you could be a hyper responder. And I mean this
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: is the thing from everything from fasting to diet. And
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: I always say, anybody tells you there's one diet that
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: we should all be eating is either demented, they're trying
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: to sell you something, or they're a member of a cult.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: And it's the same for exercise, And it's the same
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: because we are all different, we have genes that respond differently,
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: We've got all sorts of shit. So I'm a big
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: fan of running your own experiments, but having them scientifically informed.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: But the other thing I think is that the little
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: warning for people is just because it's hard doesn't mean
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: it did work for you.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: This is a really good point and an important one
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: that you actually put your time frame on it and
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: make sure that you're committing. You actually need to be
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: honest with yourself as to whether you're getting it done
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: or not and what the results are saying. So that
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: reflection piece is really critical. But I do I think
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: this applies to how we live life in general. I
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: think this applies to success. I think this applies to
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: careers and business. We're just testing and learning our way
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: to wisdom to find out what we actually want and
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: what's right for us. I find a lot of people
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: come to me because they think they need their next
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: leadership role or the next step up the ladder. But
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: when you actually dig down a little bit, they don't
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: want to. When you look at you know what life
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: they actually want to be living, and how they want
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: to be spending their days, and what skills they want
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: to be using. It's a different thing. But they're so
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: blindly following the path of I guess societal evidence as
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: to what they should be doing, that they're not willing
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: to try something new because again it's this identity shift
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: and this step away from what they think is the
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: right thing to do.
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that confirmation bias is very very powerful.
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: So just just making sure when you do run your
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: experiments that you are trying to limit your confirmation. So
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: let's go back to the diet study that you talked
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: about going on a plant based black diet. Right, I
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: know if I try to plant this diet for a month,
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: I know for sure I have a confirmation bias against
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: plant is die.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: So it would be.
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: Either consciously or subconsciously looking for reasons why this wasn't
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: working for me, Right, I'm aware of that going in.
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: So I think it is it's important that people educate
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: themselves around biases when they go to run experiments because
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: experimenters know about that, scientists know about and there's still
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: a shitload of biases and academic research. Right, So it's
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: making sure that you try to limit those biases going in.
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: And I'd actually be a proper scientist as you said, right, Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: The point is to gather the data. The point is to.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: Have a to have a look and respect on reflect
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: on what's actually going on, not not what you want
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: it to be, because sometimes the results are inconvenient. Sometimes
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: what we find out is not what we wanted to know,
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: and that can be had. That can be tough.
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: And so now you talk about three levers that people
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: can pull that actually drive lasting change.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: So what are those leavers?
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: So when I was writing the book, the point of
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: the book is to work out what are the things
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: that are getting in the way of people actually making
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: meaningful change for themselves. One is, one of the ideas
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: is this experiment mindset. But one is to be careful
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: of the areas that we're actually experimenting on, because sometimes
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: the presenting thing is a symptom of something rather than
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: the actual underlying cause. So the way that I see
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: behavior is that it's driven by your environment. So these
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: are the three leaders your environment. So the physical people, places,
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: and prompts. I say, you know, the cues and clues
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: that are around you that drive your behavior. Your psychology
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: is your thoughts beliefs in your mindset, and your physiology
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: the physical state of your brain and body in any moment.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: And these are the three things that come together to
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: drive behavior. So you know, in a workplace context, we're
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: often talking about the behaviors that are coming up, and
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: I'll get bought into a workplace to deal with these
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: behaviors of a team. But it's not the behavior that's
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: the problem. If there's you know more than one person
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: that's exhibiting the same behavior. Chances are there's some in
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: your system, something in your environment or the way that
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: people are thinking or feeling that is driving the behavior.
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: And for an individual as well, I might think that
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: I need to work on my mindset in order to
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: create a change in my life, but I might be
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: surrounded by all of these people or a physical environment
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: that is just not allowing me to stretch myself in
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: that way. You know, if I want to go off
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: and do something outside of the norm, outside of the
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: expected behavior for this sortive type of social group that
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: I'm existing in, it would be very easy for me
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: to be drawn back into that group. So in that case,
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: it's not a mindset that we need to work on
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: with these people. It's really an environmental thing. If how
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: can we surround yourself with people where your desired behavior
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: is the expected behavior is the normal.
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: Behavior, Yeah, that's really important. A few examples that I
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: mean ones that spring to mind from a corporate perspective
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: and then also from a personal perspective.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: If you take a corporate perspective.
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: So you know, as you'll know, there's lots of poor
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: behaviors sometimes in the corporate world, and particularly I find
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: there is poor behaviors where there are large personal bonuses, right,
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: and to begin, you know, think of banking as an
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: industry like that, where it's like somebody has this huge
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: bonus on the line, they're going to do everything that
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: they can to get that bonus, and that department is
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: going to drive towards that that they may sabotaze other parts.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: Of the business.
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: I can't remember who it was who said, some behavioral
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: economists said, show show me the incentive, and I'll show
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: you the behavior. So that can be a real inhibitor
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: of good corporate culture, right when you have that those
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: personalized bonuses. And then another personal example, you know somebody's
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: trying to lose weird or trying to stop smoking and
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: all the friends are smokers. Yeah, and you know that
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: sort of environment, or you know they're in a workplace
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: where every freaking lunchtime I go into schools every lunchtime
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: there's just shit food served.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: Up or bricks and stuff like that.
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: That environment is actually going to mix stuff as shit
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: a little more difficult, right, yeah.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So in terms of working out which lever to pull,
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: I would be working out where's the biggest blang for
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: my buck here, what's the biggest thing that's driving this
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: behavior and to change that thing, which isn't always the
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: obvious way of going about things. And I think on
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: that workplace thing, that takes me back to what I
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: was saying before about leaders saying to me, what was
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: working before just doesn't seem to be working anymore. And
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: that bonus thing is a really good example of that.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: If you look at the sporting world, there's studies that
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: are showing and they're not even that recent and they've
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: been on top of this for a bit longer than
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: we are. In the business world, we're just kind of
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: catching up that performance based coaching, that performance based incentivizing,
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: which is very outcome focused, is actually having the opposite effect.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: They're seeing a decline in performance and a decline in
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: mental wellbeing. And we're still using that same approach in
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: workplaces where it's very outcome focused. It's either you win
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: or lose, and we're attaching these bonuses and then we're
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: wondering why we're having a decline in well being and
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: decline in engagement from people. We actually know that there's
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: there's another way to drive performance, which is more effective,
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: which is more focusing on individual skill development and individual
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: growth in pursuit of a common goal rather than you know,
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: end game, win or lose. It's rather rian learn.
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, no, absolutely, I mean athletes. I've not worked with
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: quite a few athletes, and I find a particularly when
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: I worked with karate athletes who I was working with
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: the Australian team, and so many of these guys, light
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: bulb moments were going off whenever I was asking them
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: if they were focused on the outcome and when they
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: were focused on the outcome versus if they were ever
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: focused on their skills and the things that they need
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: to do, like data change, the stress levels, and every
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: one and some of them had light bulb moments of
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: like Jesus, yeah, I'm completely focused on winning the tournament.
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: When win, and then.
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: The stress level goes up stress in person, motor control,
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: then you can't execute on your skills and all of
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: this stuff. So yeah, I mean, any sports psychologists worth
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: their salt will say outcome be as focused is just
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: it's the best way to destroy performance.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and yet what we're still trying to this is
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: how we're trying to run our businesses is.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: Performance.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: So I think it's exciting for us to know that,
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: but it's you know, how long is it going to
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: take for our organizations to catch on that that way
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: of doing things isn't working anymore? And that's a lot
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: of the work that I'm doing now.
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: So let's talk about the other two leavers. We talked
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: about environment a lot. Let's talk about psychology and physiology.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so in terms of physiology, it's our physical capacity,
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: you know, the state of our brain if we're on
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: high alert a lot of the time, or even you know,
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: physical function of a brain can impact how you're thinking
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: and how you're behaving. I've got some neuro feedback devices
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: back there. It's some of the things that I'm excited.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: So I've got a mend there and I've got another
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: device that I was playing with late last year while
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: I was writing a book called the Mind Lift, where
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm working on how how can we actually
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: adjust the brain wave patterns and the physical function of
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: the brain to increase informance that performance, so we can
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: we can pull that liver on its own right. We
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: know we can do it with nutrition, with sleep, with
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: you know, getting enough fluid and exercise, we can create
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: some capacity in our physical bodies and in our brains
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: as well. But it's also what's our How is our
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: environment and our psychology impacting our physiology as well? So
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: they all each other.
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: I consistently see this, you know, I'm running workshops on
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: high performance, whether it's leadership teams or whether it's a
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: bigger workshop for the business, and then morning tea comes
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: along and it's just shit food, And I'm like, why
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: do businesses think it's a good idea to fill their
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: key assets with shit food that impacts negatively on their
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: brain function and their physical and their mental health. It's
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: just for me, it's completely hotherly bonkers, right, And there's
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: the interaction between environment and physiology that then impacts on
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: psychology as well. Right, that's impacts on cognitive performance. You know,
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: if you're eating just ultra processed shit, good luck with
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: having a really high functioning, focused breeding for the afternoon
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: after that.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: It's just so I mean, we talked about sports, answer
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: business is so far behind elite sport and the elite
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: levels of the military when it comes to how they
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: actually engineer their environments around performance. Like it's almost like
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: they're engineered to decrease performance.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: It's crazy, isn't it.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: They're really stuck in this loop of Oh yeah, but
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: I'm too busy, I'm too busy to eat well, I'm
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: too busy to sleep, I'm too busy to move my
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: body without understanding how much capacity it can create and
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: how much efficiency it can create if we're actually focusing
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: on that lever and I do think we overcomplicate things
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: in that space a bit. For the book, I interviewed
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: an amazing dietitian, Chloe McLoud. She's one of Australia's best
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: dietitians working across performance in business and in sport. And
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: the thing that really struck me about our conversation was
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: that we need to make nutrition the boring pillar. Stop
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: trying to be advancing with it. Just make sure that
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: you've got access at your fingertips to the best quality
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: and nutrition that you can And that can just be
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: a handful of almonds or like some frozen veggies and
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: you know, tin of tune or whatever it might be.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: Just keep it simple and eat the same thing every
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: day if you have to. But you need to understand
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: that this is really significantly impacting the way that you're
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: feeling and showing up in the way that you're thinking
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: how likely it is that you're going to be positive
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: or negative about something that's going on in your environment
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: and your ability to adapt to that. But we also
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: know that our bodies and well, our brain's main function
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: is to keep us alive, right, so that most of
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: our energy, as you know, is going to go to
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: those functions of just keeping your body moving. So if
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: you don't have the capacity or the energy, then your
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: brain's not going to care about your personal growth goals.
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: It's not going to care about what you're wanting to achieve.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: It's like, I'm just bunkering down here to try and
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: keep you alive, mate. So we need to give ourselves
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: that extra capacity to be able to do hard things,
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: to move in the face of fear, to run these
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: experiments outside of our comfort zones, because it's not what
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: the energy is going to be allocated to if we're
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: starving for energy.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent.
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: And so so let's talk about people designing their own experiments.
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: So you say that the first step is you've got
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: to figure out properly where you want to be or
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: where you want to get to, and then design your
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: experience to talk to but what that process actually looks like.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so it would be easy to run experiments and
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: still end up in a place that you don't want
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: to be. And I was saying that before, if you know,
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: the obvious next step in leadership, for the obvious next
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: step in business would be to do this. So I'm
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: going to experiment my way there. But first we need
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: to check on what do we actually want because our
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: environments are generally designed to head us in a particular
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: way unless we're very very conscious about that. So I
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: with my clients do an exercise that I call horizon setting,
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: which is kind of letting go of where you are
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: and having a very very high level look at what
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: I call the horizon, but it's really just setting in
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: north So at what kind of environment do you want
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: to be in? You know, what kind of physical environment
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: would I like to be spending my time in, What
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: kind of people do I want to be surrounded with
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: day to day, what kind of skills do I want
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: to be using, what kind of principles, and what is
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: the impact that I want to make in the world.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: So making sure that what we actually want is where
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: we're taking steps toward the reason that people find it
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: so tricky is because sometimes they feel that the distance
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: between where they are and what they want is actually
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: too far and it's a little bit uncomfortable to take
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: a look at. But then we just start taking these
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: small experiments, these little nudges on the path, you know,
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: just tilting the ship in the direction that we want
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: to go in the smallest way that is doable without
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: blowing your life up. And what happens is as we
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: start moving things, just the moment takes us in the
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: direction in ways that we couldn't expect.
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: Let's make this very real for people, because this is
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: this is a really big thing in behavioral science, right
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: is it that if where I am nigh and where
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: I want to be, if that gap is massive, that
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: is probably the biggest.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: Thing that stops people from getting started.
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: So let's just take weight right so right now, because
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: it's it's easy and something that a lot of people
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: will resonate with.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: Like, if you are five kilos off.
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: Your ideal with you're like, yeah, I can see that,
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: I can I can see how I can get there.
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: But if you've got forty kilos to lose, you know it,
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: because like Jesus, how am I going to do that?
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: Like that is so huge?
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: And I always say to people when I'm working with them,
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: is write your goal done and estimate how long it
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: would teach you to get there without, you know, just
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: completely changing your life one hundred percent, because nobody's going
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: to do that for us ste period, but with a
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: reasonable degree of effort.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: How long is it going to take you to get there?
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: And if it's longer than three months, I say to people, right,
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: we'll write that original goal downe and let's not focus
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: on something that's three months away and write that three
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: months ago. And then for that three months ago, what
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: are your waypoints right that you're going to check.
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: In to know you're there?
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: And that's monthly goals and then I bring it down
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: in the weekly and then a process and stuff like that.
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: Do you use a system some sort of a system,
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: kind of a light similar to that?
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: With people, I tend to focus on the process more
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: so we'll keep the goal in line. Here's where we
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: want to end up. Okay, what's one thing, What's one
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: thing that we can start to test to see if
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: it works. Again, I'm taking the eyes a little bit,
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: and so this can be uncomfortable for people. But I'm
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: taking the eyes off the outcome because what I find
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: is that if I've set a goal for somebody and
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: they've got their strategy in order to get there, if
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: they go off track from that strategy or things get
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: hard and they stop, you tend to retreat. It tends
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: to oh, I'm failed, I'm not good enough, and they
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: get stuck in.
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: The spiraling field story in your.
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So I would break it down into I'm going
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: to test. Say it might be I'll test going for
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: a five minute walk every day for four weeks to
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: learn what it does for my energy, or you know,
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: if it's if it's a weight thing for example, which
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: is not my space, it might be you know, to
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: see if that has an impact on my weight. So
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: the goal is the learning, and that's the difference. That's
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: where we kind of remove the judgment and the outcome focused.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: I wonder what's going to happen here, Let's give it
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: a go.
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: So you get people to run experiments on the processes,
• 45:58
  Speaker 3: on the process, on the processes of the behaviors. I
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: love that because I always say people process process beats
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: goals every.
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: Single day of the week.
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you know, you've just got to think of
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: people who, you know, I set themselves a goal, whether
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: it's running a marathon or whatever it is, and then
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: they eventually get there and then the marthon's over and
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: then everything falls apart, right because they don't have the
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: goal that's focused there, But what was the process to
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: actually get them or what were the behaviors that you
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: were doing? And if you remove the goal and still
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: have the processes, what would you be like now if
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: you continue to do those processes?
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: So, I like the way that you're focusing, So we're
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: taking away the out come you set. It doesn't remove it,
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: but that's not where the focus goals and the experiments
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: are on the processes to see what process is moving
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: the needle.
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, correct.
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, sound like what we were saying with the performance
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: based coaching that's outcome focused. We know that this has
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: a negative impact on performance ultimately and well being. So
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: I've shifted the focus from the outcome to the process,
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: and that the addition of the curiosity and the adventure
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: of I wonder what's going to happen here, actually just
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: makes it more of a joyful experience. I know in
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: my own life. I feel this sense that I'm I'm
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: not just chasing something all the time. I'm not just
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: waiting for that next milestone. I'm actually yet really engaged
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: and excited a lot of the time and the work
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: that I'm doing because I wonder what's going to happen here.
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: I love the curiosities because that's what that's what the
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: scientific method is all about, is curiosity, right, And to
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: actually get a hypothesis and null hypo and try to
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: disprove the hypothesis with curiosity that that's pretty key.
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that.
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: So, so what are some other things that people can
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: think about with this whole experiment mindset? I mean, do
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: you is this just really about personal goals? Can they
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: use it in other areas of their life? Obviously you
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: have a bit of a bent around the workplace, but
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: you know where else can there spread?
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: I think it is a universal way of trying things
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: out of achieving what it is that you want to achieve.
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: I've had people I tell a story in the book
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: of a frame that I work with who applied it
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: to her experience with perimenopause that she was feeling overwhelmed.
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: There was all this information out there and she was
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: feeling really stuck and frustrated and like she had no
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: control over what was happening within her body. But she
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: started doing some research, working with her GP and just
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: testing things out, and she has found some ways now
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: to manage her symptoms after a few trials and failures.
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: But what she said from holding this experiment mindset, because
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: she was one of the people who read my book
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: before it was before it was released to help me
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: test it, and she said, it's just this sense of
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: agency that she's got. It's like it put her in
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: the driver's seat and it gave her something that she
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: can actually do. So I think it's in any space
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: where you're feeling stuck, it's a system that allows you
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: to take some steps and to move forward. So whether
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: it's your career, certainly in business, certainly in leadership and
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: dealing with people, it's whenever you're feeling this sense of stuck,
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: mess or fear, or that you're plateaued in some way
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: that it can be applied.
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: Are you stuck?
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because it's behavioral science, right, and it applies across
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: the board.
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 49:49
  Speaker 5: And do you think that we are struggling or or
• 49:54
  Speaker 5: that our success can sometimes be limited with information overlord, Like,
• 50:00
  Speaker 5: there's so much stuff out there that there's just.
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: So much information, and I find, particularly in the social
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: media world, where there's just random frigging nobody's on there
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: being absolute experts and can be very very convincing, and
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: then there's there's this information over here which conflicts with that,
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: and people are just like, you know, your brain just
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: kind of goes whibble after a while, right, and you
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: just get oh, let's just do nothing there.
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, it's kind of like information constipation like that.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: That's cool.
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, information constipuation.
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: That is cool because you do get stuck, right, Yeah.
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I I have a startup that I'm working on,
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: and I find that myself in just all of the
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: information on how I could be using AI and how
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: I should be using social media and how I should
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: be getting things done, there is so much out there
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: in terms of information that I'm having to really force
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: myself to to proceed. Because if you think there's one way,
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: if you think there's one way of doing things, you
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: know there's this one right way in a sea of
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: a million different possible ways that I could do it.
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: Why would I even start where would I even start,
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: because the right way.
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: Is to know what it's a little bit like akin
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: to a PhD. Is that there's so many people who
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: are just spending years on their literature review and not
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: moving to the doing experiment stage because there's so much
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: information out there on podcasts and social media that they're
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: just they're in information gathering mold forever. Yeah, and as
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: you say, information constitutional like that, So tusban, there's been,
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: there's been. Actually I can see how this applies in booth,
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: the workplace, and to people in.
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: Their personal lives. So tell us where can people go?
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: Is that the books release now, isn't it?
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: And where do we send them in order for buying
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: copies website?
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: If people want to pick use a speaker, all of that,
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: where do we go?
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah? So the book officially releases on the twenty eighth
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: of May, so probably when this podcast has released. Yeah, yep,
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: it would be available in all of your good bookstores
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: and on Amazon and book Topia. If you want to
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: look me up and follow my work or connect, you'll
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: find me on LinkedIn, Tams and Simmons or Instagram tams
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: and Simmons, and my website at tams and Simmons dot
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: com for speaking inquiries or to have a bit of
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: a deeper look at the work that I'm doing.
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: Excellent, thank you Jameson.
• 52:51
  Speaker 3: And I think, yeah, let's go run some experiments, but
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: do one last little bit of research. Go and buy
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: the experiment mindset and then get into action mode.
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: Yes, make that the one book that's not procrastination, that's action.
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: That's it. Exactly. Many thanks Tims, Thanks Paul, great chat