Latest / Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell / How to Overcome Numbing Avoidance & Procrastination When You Need to Take Big Steps

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How to Overcome Numbing Avoidance & Procrastination When You Need to Take Big Steps · Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate, a podcast covering all things relationships, separation, and divorce.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: How to create healthy, happy, fulfilling relationships without sacrificing any part of yourself.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: Supporting anyone feeling challenged in their relationship or marriage.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: These are confidential conversations for you if you're navigating separation, divorce, or reorganizing life afterwards.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: Decide whether to stay or leave a relationship or marriage, divorce with less drama, and consciously choose what's next for you.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Warrantry people of the Kulin Nation, and pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: I acknowledge them as the original storytellers of this land.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to this week's episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: In today's episode, I welcome Rio Richards.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Rio is a private practice therapist and grief integration coach, and she specialises in helping adults navigate the profound and complex journey of loss and trauma.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: With a somatic and psychodynamic lens, Rio guides individuals to heal and rebuild using the power of both the mind and the body for long-term resilience and change.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Rio's mission is to help those who feel stuck and powerless in the aftermath of tragedy find their way to a new version of themselves with radical compassion and unapologetic clarity.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: As you can hear from that bio introduction, Rio and I have a lot in common.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: We just work in different spaces.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: But it was an absolute gift and pleasure to connect with Rio and explore how we can use somatic practices to stop shutting down, numbing, or avoiding when there's big steps you want to take.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: There is so much in this conversation.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: We actually split it into two parts, so there's a second part coming.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: There's so much in this conversation with Rio.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: I know that all of you will get something out of it wherever you are on your journey.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: And if you want to connect more deeply with Rio, there are links in the show notes for her website and her social media.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Hi Rio, welcome to the podcast.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, thanks so much for having me on.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really excited to talk to you.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I'm really excited about this conversation too.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just start.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell me a little bit about you, what you do, and I guess why you do it?
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I am a uh therapist in the US, licensed in California.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm also a grief integration coach.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um I my specialty right now is grief.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: After the loss of my own dad, going through my experience of significant loss, um, grief has become my specialty as well as uh the nervous system and uh somatic approach to therapy.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say, you know, that that feels like the obvious transition from my own loss to working with grief, but I got into therapy um in the first place or found myself in this field after my own terrible therapy experience.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I, as a young person, sat across from someone and said, I feel like this is not it.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think that I could do better than the support I'm getting now.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it kind of, I don't know, it just stuck with me and lit a bit of a fire.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: I like it.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: I like it.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: So in this episode or this chat, I really want to focus on the somatic therapy part of your work.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: So can you just take us back to basics and explain what somatic therapy or practice is?
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: So somatic therapy is an approach to therapy that really focuses on the body piece of the mind-body connection.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so when you are incorporating somatics or a somatic approach, you are inviting essentially all of the um information that comes from the physical sensations we experience, um, body sensations.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: We invite all of that into the room to also be information of how best to move forward and where we need to go and how we heal.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really bringing in the body and the physicality into the healing space.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, interesting, really interesting and powerful, I imagine.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: What are some of the shifts that you see in your clients who experience this form of therapy?
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the shifts that I've witnessed are really uh profound.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that that what I see happening when we bring the somatic piece into the room is uh more relief faster, if I were to just like really simplify it.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that I think that that's because I mean, many reasons, many theories, but in general, our emotions are stored in the body, not in the brain.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: But we are so comfortable and so naturally really living in the conscious, you know, above-neck place um that we tend to just stay there.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot of the intellectualizing and the talking about.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: So you have that traditional talk therapy where you're processing.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: And this isn't to say that that's not extremely helpful too.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think naming it, telling the story, all of those things are essential and helpful and needed, but we're ignoring, you know, all of the rest of it and where emotions are stored are in the body.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: So when we talk about it, we are not actually touching on the feeling.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: We are not getting to where all of that stored trauma, all of the chronic stress, all of the life experiences, where they live is in our felt senses, not in our thoughts.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess my next question is how does the mind-body connection work?
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: And second part to that question is why is somatic support, somatic therapy, somatic practice so useful when we're navigating a big life transition, such as a separation or divorce?
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: So how does mind-body connection work and what why is that this somatic work so important at life moments?
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's a really great question of like, what is it and why does it work?
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: So the mind-body connection, I sort of like to use an example of say you, you know, so we are constantly, I'll back up for a second.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: We are constantly taking in information on a conscious and unconscious level.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: So the mind and the body are always scanning for threat.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: So we are primed to scan and seek out and clock where is the danger?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so there are all of these ways in which we're picking up on information that we're not even aware of.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: So that is our body sensing danger, safety.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so for example, we can have the thought, I'm not good enough, I'm not worth it.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: And when we have that thought, our body has a physiological response to that thought.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: We might feel tense, we might start shutting down, but the opposite is true as well.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: We might, let's say someone's been in a car accident and they have a trigger around loud noises or being in the car.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: They might not be actively thinking, you know, this is going to trigger me or I feel uncomfortable.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: They might just hear a loud noise and their body responds on a physiological level, saying we are in danger.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so the mind-body connection is just they're always communicating with each other.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's a two-way highway of just constant communication.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Are we safe or are we in danger?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so why somatics and bringing the mind-body connection into the room is so powerful when we're talking about huge life transitions or trauma or big decisions.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um is that we want to create enough flexibility in how we respond to these big stressors and to all of this chronic stress, so we don't get stuck and so we don't perseverate or feel unable to take action.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so, really, when we're taking in all of this information, what is my body sensing and also what is my brain?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: What's the story I'm telling myself?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: What's the information that I'm taking in?
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: All of that informs how much we're able to hold.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it informs our capacity.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so, really, the point is to look for as much flexibility as possible.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: And that means being as in tune with your responses and getting to have a choice in all of these ways that we respond in those moments.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, which really brings me to the next part of what I wanted to speak with you about, and that is the freeze response.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: I see it a lot in in my clients, freeze of porn.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: But can you, from that somatic therapy lens, share an explanation or talk us through the nervous system response that is that freeze response?
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: It really, I think you said, you know, unable to make a decision.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the freeze response is really this actually gets um is pretty misrepresented often when people are talking about the nervous system.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: So they tend to, I see a lot of um saying like freeze, shut down, kind of putting those two things together.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: They are not the same thing.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: So if we think of our nervous system as a ladder, and at the top of the ladder, we we have our safety, social engagement.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: This is where we're curious, we're open, we're calm.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: Life is full of possibility.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like things are pretty okay.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: We're pretty safe.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: We move down the ladder, and that is our sympathetic fight or flight response.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: So we start to mobilize.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: We move down the ladder, and that's like, oh, I sense danger.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: I heard something in the bushes.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: What is that?
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure if I need to fight, I'm not sure I need to run, but there's that action energy.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: Moving further down the ladder to the bottom is that dorsal vagal shutdown.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that's I can't run away, I can't fight.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: So essentially I'm going to play dead.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's the kind of primal response.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so where what happens in freeze is that we have that activating, like, oh, I sense danger, I feel that anxiety, I feel that panic, I feel that fear, I feel the irritability, whatever the thing is.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: But then our shutdown response sits right on top of that and keeps us from being able to move.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: So we have the fight or flight energy, but with the shutdown sitting on top of it.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it's almost like if you think about our foot is just pedaled to the metal on the gas, go, but then at the same exact time, our other foot slams on the brake.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that action energy is there, but we're unable to move.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: So we're just frozen and stuck.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: If the themes in this episode are resonating with you, if it's bringing up things that you would like to explore on a deeper level with me, you can book a free intro call via the link in the show notes and we can discuss coaching options.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to support you.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: And now back to this week's episode.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so how can someone support themselves to get out of that freeze response when there are really big decisions or big steps that need to be made or taken?
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so this the answer to this, I think, is a little bit of experimenting for each person, what works for them, but I'll say overarching uh suggestion for me would be to pay attention to the body first and get your body physically out of a freeze or stuck place.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, say someone notices that freeze response.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Really, what are what are your shoulders doing?
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like, where's the tension in your chest?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like physically, what is your body doing as you're in this place?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe exaggerate that feeling a little bit more or exaggerate that um physical representation, like feel yourself in a ball or frozen, whatever that thing is, whatever that um uh physical symbolism is for you.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then what would your body look like if you were open and curious?
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: And if you felt safe, would your shoulders drop?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: Would your arms be able to sway a little bit?
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: Would you dance?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that's a place where I would always start with people is when you notice the freeze, how do you shift back into a place of safety, even if it's just for a moment?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: How do you show your body that the lion is not chasing you right now?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that you can be with the difficult emotions that are here.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: But I think showing our bodies first is like the easiest and quickest way to get out of that.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: I really, really love that.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's simple, it's actionable, and as you said, it's quick.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: Something else I notice with my clients, and I wonder if you experience this with your clients too.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: They can swing from numb, shut down, feeling nothing, unable to process, to the opposite end of that sort of spectrum, feeling everything too much, completely overwhelmed, and sort of worried that if they allow all those feelings to surface, they'll be consumed by them.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: So, how can someone somatically support or tend to themselves through that experience of you know going from one extreme to the other or being so um overwhelmed and consumed by emotions?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's a really wonderful question, but I hope you hope you've got the gist of yeah.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: No, I think I'm following.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, if they're kind of middle of the ladder or bottom of the ladder, how do they they're kind of swinging between the two?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll say this is where I find most of my clients as well, as they're coming because there's a sense of overwhelm and the action doesn't feel safe, but also the inaction doesn't feel safe.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so they're kind of swinging between the two states.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: So bringing it back to that safety piece is where I would start.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: So, how where do you find safety with others and safety with yourself?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: And safety can be kind of a confusing word too.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I might call it connection.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, where do you feel connected to you, to nature, to other people?
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: And how do you implement those throughout your day or during this time as much as possible?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because those little um micro moments of safety and connection are going like compounded, are going to be what show your nervous system.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'm not an active danger in this moment.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm okay.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: It gives us, it gives our nervous system reprieve from that chronic stress.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: We're able to hold it better.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I would I would have that be a focus for sure.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then shifting out of either too much feeling, too much overwhelm, or shutdown.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, there's an ambulance going by.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you can hear it.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: No, I wouldn't, that's fine.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's loud outside my window.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um so if we are in a shutdown response, if we're picturing that ladder, we need to move up towards safety, which means we need some sort of movement, some sort of really gentle action, action that feels safe.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: So that might be just a slow walk, that might be um a sort of swing, that could be something that feels playful, but we want to upregulate.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: So when we're in shutdown, we want to upregulate and move towards the top of that ladder, towards safety.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: When we're in the middle of the ladder and we're feeling too much, again, we want to move, um, we want to downregulate towards safety.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: So this gets kind of confusing with the upregulate and downregulate.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: But essentially, too much energy, too much overwhelm.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's when we call in the grounding, um, bring in the physical senses like essential oil or temperature changes, um, jumping into cold water or taking a bath.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: So anything that that grounds our bodies in the present moment.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I always like to think of just what are senses that I can activate right now to bring myself back.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that classic simple what five things I can see, smell, taste, those sorts of strategies.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I talk about them a little bit with my clients, but it's really great to have your expertise in the space here.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um I know too that as well as working in the grief space and the somatic space or bringing in somatics to your therapy, you've also worked with couples and relationships.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I wanted to ask you about any tips on helpful reframes for challenging relationship circumstances?
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: Are there any specific tools from your toolkit that you find really help people either who are struggling in a relationship and looking to reconnect or moving through separation divorce and still need to have a relationship with this person as they separate and perhaps need to co-parent afterwards?
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: So any specific tools that you find help those sorts of in those sorts of circumstances?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: So couples who are going through a challenging time but have the intention of staying together or are trying to work through it.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um the tools that I would use, say, like in the therapy room with my clients, are of course communication tools.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of that being what is what is the story underneath the story?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so a lot of that looks like challenging assumptions and slowing the communication down to almost almost an irritatingly slow pace, like really annoyingly slow.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like, okay, you said this thing, you felt what in your body.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: And when she said that, you heard what.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's really a lot of practicing that, um, reflecting back.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: Did I hear this accurately?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: What assumption am I making about what this person just said?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I find that a majority of the time, even in couples who have great communication, we're making judgments all the time, just as a species, but especially when we've been with someone for a long time, we're like, oh, I know what you mean.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I know what you're trying to say.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: And we get into that habit or pattern of kind of filling in the blanks ourselves, but then we're missing so much of what that other person is actually saying or what they mean.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so I know that's not a helpful, like tangible takeaway tool, but I think it is.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think it really is.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I liked also how you said, what did I feel in my body?
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because that brings us back into the semantic conversation as well.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: So really being mindful and noticing when you're communicating with someone, be it your uh partner that you want to reconnect with or your ex who you really don't want to be in the room with, what did I feel in my body?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: What is the story I'm telling myself?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: What is the assumption I'm making?
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: I guess final question about deciding to leave a relationship, separation, divorce is often I often refer to it as a storm.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like it just comes in and it blow doesn't blow everything up, but you know, it can disturb a lot of things in life.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: How and I I guess you've kind of answered this, but I wonder if there's anything else you'd like to share.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: How can we help our body find a place of healing or even just calm in such a storm?
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so those safety pieces being, of course, a a big one is when we know that we are in a storm, seeking moments of safety isn't about, you know, resilience isn't like reaching happiness and then staying there.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, but the goal is to have that flexibility of can I, while I'm in the storm, also Also keep one foot like firmly planted in the present, knowing that I'm okay in the storm.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's where those little moments of safety are really going to keep us grounded in the chaos, not fix it, but keep us in it and able to deal with it.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I would say, you know, and this isn't necessarily a somatic practice, but I I use this a lot and find that it ties in with everything, is uh, I call it rage on the page.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it's essentially whether you want to write it down and light it on fire afterwards or type it out and delete it immediately.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: Emotion is meant to be in motion.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so just get it out, whatever that looks like for you.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: So say, you know, you're feeling a lot of anger or rage or fear.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: How are you gonna move that through you so you don't get stuck around it so that you can keep going?
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so rage on the page for me is often really linked to that body work, that somatic work.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's like address the emotions, get them out, but also as a way to show your nervous system that it's not dangerous to feel whatever it is that you're feeling.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that avoidance of painful emotion is where a lot of us do get stuck.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's when we do become sick or start experiencing these physical symptoms.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, so so being with it and saying, okay, I wrote the thing, I said the scary thing, and it didn't kill me.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: I'm still here.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a huge fan of um a ritual burning.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: Write it out, write everything that you really want to say to that person or about that experience.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and rip it into tiny pieces or burn it.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love it.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: In closing, is there anything else that you would like to share?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: And if not, how can people connect with you?
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Where can people find you?
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the only other piece um that popped into my mind when we were talking um that I could share quickly as just a tangible tool is a way to start practicing all of these somatic pieces, is start tuning into whatever physical sensations are there when you're experiencing an emotion and experimenting.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: You can be really playful about it, but experimenting with how does this feeling want to move?
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: How can I shift it?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: Just as an experiment, as something quote, fun.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say you're feeling a lot of charge, and you're like, what if I focus on this feeling, this sensation, and I push as hard as I can against this wall, or I pull this blanket, or I do 10 jumping jacks.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: So starting to kind of build that starting to have a language and a dance with your own nervous system and your own senses can be a starter practice, I would say.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um and people can reach me by going to my website, uh Rio Richardstherapy.com, or they can find me on Instagram at and that's grief.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I will add those links into the show notes.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and knowledge and experience with us today.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's been a fantastic conversation.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Rio.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: You're so welcome.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Sally Ann Hartnell, divorce coach and strategist, and you've been listening to Reflect, Reclaim, and Liberate.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: You can follow me on Instagram at Reflect Coaching.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: And if you can think of anyone who would love or benefit from listening to this episode, please share it with them.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'd also be so grateful if you would follow and review the podcast so we can get it in the ears of a whole lot more people just like you who are ready to reclaim and liberate themselves in life and love.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you'll join me next week for another episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Until then.