Latest / The ABACC Podcast® / Ep. 4 - Keith Ramsdell (President, NACCAP) - The CFO and Enrollment, Part One: Building Trust

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Ep. 4 - Keith Ramsdell (President, NACCAP) - The CFO and Enrollment, Part One: Building Trust · The ABACC Podcast®

• Keith: we can demonstrate that these are the most successful things that we do. And these three or four things, these are the things that have not been as successful. And I think a CFO will also respect the fact that if you're a leader in enrollment management and you make the choice, and I did this multiple times in in this last role, where I said, I'm not gonna ask for additional money to do this new initiative. I have to take it. From the thing that was least successful. Bruce Hoeker: Welcome back to the ABACC Podcast, where we learn from the people serving Christian higher education and remember that we are all working through it together. Our guest today is Keith Ramsdale, who leads NACAP, the North American Coalition for Christian Admissions Professionals. Keith grew up the son of public school teachers in North Central Ohio and went to a state university, but he found his first campus ministry meeting the night before his first class. Years later, He walked into his first NACAP conference and watched it open with worship and close with communion. Afterward, he asked Phil Cook, then president of NACAP, how somebody gets his job. And now it's Keith's. Before that, he was vice president for enrollment management and marketing at Ashland University, where he learned that the enrollment office and the business office speak two different languages. Today, he helps us translate. Before we hear from Keith, let's take a moment for our sponsors. Keith, welcome. Thanks for being on the show today. Keith: Thanks, Bruce. It's it's I've been looking forward to this since we talked about it several weeks ago. Bruce Hoeker: Me too. We d we we met for the first time at a gathering of Christian Higher Right Association executives and quickly struck up a friendship. And I we've talked several times since then about many things, including our jobs and our missions and our mutual theater backgrounds. Keith: That's right. Yeah. That was that was one that surprised me a little bit, but with both of us being in the roles that we're in, but it honestly it shouldn't have surprised me. That's I'm always amazed at the number of people that I run into who have a theater background, music background or or whatever. So yeah, but that's definitely something that connected us as well. Bruce Hoeker: Absolutely. Well, I think theater nerds suss each other out and we we we can sense it. We'll Keith: I think so too. Yep. Bruce Hoeker: we'll put all of our background into into good play here with our best acting skills we can mu we can we can work up. Keith: That sounds good. Bruce Hoeker: So before we do that though, let's talk a little bit about your history. You have a long history in higher ed. Tell me about that. Keith: Yeah, so you know, it's a little scary when I start talking about how long I've been in higher ed now. but I've been in on campuses for almost thirty years. And you know, I know we're talking to an audience that by and large comes from a a Christian higher education background, and that's not my background. I certainly have been a Christian for most of my life, came to take came to Christ when I was very young. but My parents were school teachers, public school teachers, and my mom stayed at home. And so as far as my dad was concerned, we really couldn't afford private education. there was no private educational options around us where we grew up in north central Ohio. And and so and he was a public school teacher, so public education was was good, right? Bruce Hoeker: Sure. Right. Keith: So part of my story, Bruce, is that I attended the University of Toledo. But I went to my first campus ministry meeting the night before I went to my first class. And that Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Keith: just set the tone. I knew that I was going to need that additional support. And so, I not only attended UT, but also worked there in the in the admissions office as a graduate assistant. And then, you know, for the next several years, started my career at Miami of Ohio in a very highly competitive public university setting. Went back to the University of Toledo, took a hiatus and worked in full-time ministry in the arts for about five years. And then went back into higher ed and worked at several institutions, specifically in graduate enrollment management. And that's kind of kind of my focus or or expertise, if you will. And again worked at a Franciscan institution and then was an assistant dean at Bowling Green State University. And then my last my last position before coming to NACAP was I was vice president for enrollment management and marketing at Ashland University here in Ashland, Ohio where I live now. Bruce Hoeker: Deep deeply involved in higher ed from day one, it sounds like. Keith: Yeah, and just I I always felt like it it made more sense to invest and to really engage on a specific campus. And and that's what I'm trying to do here where where I am now at NACAP. It's it's my my goal was never to move into a vice president's role or to move into executive leadership. Honestly my goal was just to serve the best I could where I was at the time. Bruce Hoeker: Well, I know you have a deep love for for education, especially faith based education, which I'm Keith: Absolutely. Bruce Hoeker: sure was part of your rationale for landing in the job that you have now. Tell me about the transition from focusing on the needs of one institution to now focusing on the needs of so many. Keith: Yeah, that's a great that's a great kind of segue there, Bruce. the interesting thing is is that I wrote a partnership agreement between NAGAP, which is the part it's the organization that is really designed to meet the needs of graduate enrollment managers and then NACAP. I was introduced to NACAP, they came to us and asked to to build a partnership, a relationship. and then I went to my first NACAP conference about five years ago. And I I'd never been to a professional development conference that opened with worship and you know the opening night closes in communion. And it wasn't sh long after that that I asked to have a one-on-one meeting with Phil Cook, who's my predecessor. And I said, I you know, this was amazing. Like it just blew me away. And I said, How does somebody get your job? Like you've got the best job in the world. And now he's got his, you know, dream job. He's exactly where God wants him to be. as president Bruce Hoeker: Yes. Keith: of Lee University, and I'm very, very blessed to be where I am. And more specifically to answer your question, Bruce, it it it really was a motivate a motivating factor for me to say, how can I share from my experiences and my you know, share my leadership in a way that can impact a whole industry. And in particular, focusing on Christian higher education. and building bridges from, we we have about 200 Christian high schools as well. And we're building Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Keith: those bridges and connecting students to Christian higher ed. And so leaning into that every single day, to be quite honest, I get up in the morning and I'm just excited to go to work. And that wasn't always necessarily the case on the other side of the desk. Bruce Hoeker: Sure. Yeah, it's a nice place to be. So you just celebrated your one year anniversary, I believe, last month? Yeah. Keith: I did. Yeah, last month. Yep. Bruce Hoeker: Anything anything you've learned this past year that has taken you by surprise? Keith: I I don't think that anything really surprised me. I think that I I did have a lot to learn. I think we all have lots to learn. And and I think for me, just being open to where God leads and and and oftentimes I'm surprised on a daily basis of, you know, the people that I meet, you know, when when you and I met and I, you know, we didn't know what to expect at that gathering. And I I made very quick friends with several people there. but just knowing that we all have students at the core, right? That that we're all interested in in our own individual organizations, how can we best serve students in a way that will transform their lives? And I just don't know that when I took the role that I really understood fully what that meant. And so one of the things we're doing in that gap right now is we're kind of shifting away, not shifting away, maybe that's the wrong way to say it. For 55 years we've existed to support Christian high schools and Christian colleges and universities and the the members of our organization that serve there. We're in the process of starting to really take a closer look at the fact that none of us would have jobs if it weren't for the students we serve. And so we're leaning into that, moving into the new year. How can we really make our students the champions of the work that we do? And then what we do is to serve our schools, our members, to better serve those students and and move them onto Christian higher education. And that's a very exciting change. Bruce Hoeker: absolutely, that's the most important thing we can do between Keith: Yeah, absolutely. Bruce Hoeker: between all of us. That's that's an amazing thing. Over the course of your career, you've had many opportunities to coordinate efforts, to talk to, to brainstorm with, to be colleagues with various CFOs. And I know from one of our earlier conversations, you've had some good experiences and some bad experiences. Tell me about kind of your overall interaction with. CFO's along the journey. Keith: Yeah, that's a that's a great question. I know, right? Bruce Hoeker: Be careful, this is a bunch of CFOs you're talking to. Keith: Well, you know, to be quite honest, I didn't really have encounters with CFOs until I moved into a director role. So, you know, you Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Keith: go back, you know, fifteen or twenty years or something like that, and even as a director, you don't have you don't tend to have a lot of direct access or communication with a CFO. Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Keith: So by and large, I knew the CFOs, but I never felt like I had a good or a bad relationship. It's just I I knew who they were. I generally kind of knew what they did. I did work on one campus where most everybody on campus was just afraid of the CFO. And so we didn't talk to the CFO. Bruce Hoeker: Hmm. Sure. Keith: but you know, by the time I really kind of moved on to campus at Ashland, you know. Being in the vice president's role and serving on cabinet, that was obviously a relationship that was very apparent that this was that this was an individual that I would need to work with very closely. it didn't necessarily start out on a great note, but I'm very happy to say, and we have a mutual friend in Mark Pasteiras. very very Bruce Hoeker: Yes. Great Mark Pasteuris. Keith: quickly became a good friend and I I think one of the things that I that I realized is that you have to build that bridge. And so my goal, and and and again, knowing Mark, and I I hope that he watches this, I I hope that he joins this, is he will Bruce Hoeker: I hope so too. Hi Mark. Keith: tell you that my goal was just to make him smile. Bruce Hoeker: Ha ha. Keith: That was my first goal before I understood like what is his role, what is my role, how will we interact. And he jokes about that now, that he knows that that was my goal. But ultimately the goal then became how can we understand each other? And understanding came from learning each other's language. That's the way I like to say it. And so for those that are joining us and listening in, really, you know, think about the CFO, the language of a CFO and the language Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Keith: of an enrollment leader, and they don't often align. Bruce Hoeker: Right. Keith: And and so we have to find a way to communicate effectively and realize that we're all on the same team, right? Bruce Hoeker: Yes. Keith: And that for Mark and I came very quickly and and worked very, very well. Bruce Hoeker: Do you feel that was the first time you felt like a CFO was not someone you just had to get past, but someone you needed to partner with? Keith: Absolutely. Yeah. I and and I shared that with the other members of my team. And it wasn't even just the CFO. I mean, know we're here today to talk about, you know, the relationship between the financial side of the house and the the enrollment side of the house, but but I think that there are others on our campuses that also have their own languages and their own responsibilities. And it's our responsibility as administrators to learn how to bridge those gaps and to speak each other's languages. And again, it's all about the student, but if we can't figure out how to work together, that becomes a much bigger challenge. And especially in the environment we find ourselves in these days, we don't we don't need any additional roadblocks. We need all the help we can get. Bruce Hoeker: Let's talk about your relationship, your good relationship with with your CFO. And I know we're talking about Mark, but we'll we'll generalize this a little bit. But tell me wh why that worked well. Keith: Well, I I think that it worked well is because the the biggest reason is, when you one of my kind of one the things that I've tried to do over the years is when you get somebody that you need to build a bridge to or try and communicate better with, it it happens over a meal. And I think that that's a very biblical kind of approach that Bruce Hoeker: Yes. Keith: you know, I think when we only meet in in each other's offices, it can suddenly be very not only is it just business like, it also can be very intimidating. depending on the office that you're meeting in, you're like, Well, am I on am I on my turf? Am I on his or her turf? And I think when you have a meal together and break bread together. There's something about that experience that reminds us that we're in this together, that we can be friends and colleagues and still not always agree with one another. We still have our own individual jobs and things that we have to accomplish, but there's just something that allows us to come together in a in a unique and and fresh way. Bruce Hoeker: Yeah. we we've been talking in these various podcast episodes about the team that we're on and being Keith: Yeah, yeah. Bruce Hoeker: a team player and feeling like you're part of a team, not siloed, not I have my job, you have yours, stay out of my way, I'll stay out of yours. But we are very much on a team trying to to win at the end of the day on behalf of our students. And this is obviously super critical. Do you do you think for any institution, any institution could thrive without this? positive relationship. Keith: I I don't think it's likely. especially right now where you know, I at one point and and maybe I'm jumping ahead a little bit, but again, going back to the language, the language barrier, if you will, it's a little bit like going to a foreign country, right? And if you can't learn to to collaborate and work together, you know, I I remember leading a trip, a mission trip when we were in Taiwan and and we were speaking through an interpreter in Chinese. And when my interpreter wasn't available, you just can't accomplish the goal. Right? Bruce Hoeker: Standstill, right? Keith: Yeah, exactly. You come to a standstill and it's it's very jarring. And suddenly when you realize that, my interpreter is back with me. And then over time you begin to understand more and more what the other person is saying to you, and some of that language becomes natural, suddenly you realize, wow, we can accomplish a lot when we work in this manner and and understand where the other person is coming from. Bruce Hoeker: So I know you worked really hard at building trust with your CFO. For for the business officer who doesn't necessarily feel they have that same trust for whatever reason, what are some steps they can take to start moving towards that sort of relationship? Keith: Yeah, Bruce, the the the notes that you that you and I looked at and collaborated on in advance it made me realize this morning that one of the biggest things that that we need to do is on the CFO side, what I would encourage is simply understand in advance that most of us coming out of an enrollment background, we don't have a business background. Some of us have theater backgrounds. Bruce Hoeker: Right. Keith: But in addition to that, we don't understand the business needs and the bigger picture, the financial picture of our institutions. Bruce Hoeker: Why would you? Right. Keith: Right? And and it isn't until we realize that there's something more to this than just bringing in headcount. and I think a a CFO who's been doing this for a number of years, you know, I think Mark was willing to listen to me and to say, okay, let's let's figure this out. And I think if more CFOs were willing to say, all right, I get the fact that that this person doesn't have the same background. Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Keith: What can we do to, you know, come alongside one another? And the same thing I think is true for an enrollment manager. You know, I I I hope that we have some enrollment managers that tune into this. And my advice to them is share what you know. And say to your CFO or share with your CFO, look, what I understand is generally headcount. And someone has told me, especially prior to being a VP, that my primary goal is to bring in a certain number of students. And it isn't until you get to a leadership role, at the very least, a director role, where somebody suddenly attaches, you know, net tuition revenue. What is this NTR thing Bruce Hoeker: Right. Right. Keith: that you're talking about? And suddenly you're like, well, maybe I should learn more about that. Right. And that's the conversation Bruce Hoeker: Sure. Yeah. Keith: that can spark further conversations. Bruce Hoeker: It's so important, so critically important. And if it's not happening, you're gonna get absolutely nowhere. Along Keith: That's right. Bruce Hoeker: along your journey, have you seen or experienced kind of subtle cues from a CFO who maybe isn't getting it or doesn't believe you can get it? Or w what what are CFOs doing that might be might have a negative reaction from an enrollment Keith: Yeah. Bruce Hoeker: officer? Keith: Yeah. Well, I I I I think just you know what how often do you hear the word no before you realize that Bruce Hoeker: Mm. Well, sure. Keith: on the same page? and you know, I I know that you know that one of my one of the things that I did to build to build the bridge and to, you know, to get beyond this barrier was to start looking for the data. Like what what data do I need to provide to my CFO? To say, look, I'm just not asking for dollars for X, Y, and Z for no reason. I'm not suggesting this initiative because I woke up this morning and it just came to me. You know, Bruce Hoeker: Yes. Keith: I actually have put together a proposal with data, with, you know, a projected budget and with outcomes. And when you attach the outcomes to some of those things, it suddenly at least you get your CFO's attention to go. Okay, there's actually been some thought that went into this and let's have the conversation Bruce Hoeker: My work. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Keith: and see what this could be. Bruce Hoeker: Yeah. Well, this is a really good opportunity to talk about NACAP data because this is something that you're helping your members accomplish. Talk to me just a little bit about Keith: Yeah, absolutely. Bruce Hoeker: that. Keith: Yeah. So, you know, for years, Tim Fuller, which is a name that a l a lot of our guests here may Bruce Hoeker: Mm, mm-hmm. Keith: know, was in this industry for literally a couple decades. And a lot of that since his passing, a lot of the enrollment research that's being done, we have pulled in-house in NACAP. so you know, we do funnel reports, we do the state of the of the industry. but one of the big ones that came out last year, and this is the one that I think you're referring to, was a report that we did with the CCCU looking Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Keith: at and this by the way, for our listeners, how about every six to ten years? This report has been a collaborative effort between the council and a NAC app. And this year's results were really eye-opening. And Bruce Hoeker: Mm. Keith: we've tried to roll this out. we we had a presentation at CCCU's conference, multiple at our conference, you know, we did something with ABHE. Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Keith: The rest of this year we hope to continue to roll this out because what it demonstrated was you know, what students are looking for that is moving the needle. And you know, between you and me, Bruce, and I know that you've already familiarized yourself with some of this data, Bruce Hoeker: Yes. Keith: it it's jarring. It's something that our Bruce Hoeker: Yes. Keith: that our enrollment professionals and our financial professionals need to consider significantly. Bruce Hoeker: Well, the world has changed and Keith: It has, for sure. Bruce Hoeker: in ways that if we are not on top of it, will be devastating to our Keith: That's right. Bruce Hoeker: our mutual members. So member listeners, if you're not a member of NATCAP, you need to be. So please do that. Let's get back to talking about the relationship between an enrollment officer and a CFO, because that's what we're supposed to do today, Keith. But Keith: Sure. Bruce Hoeker: I appreciate that. I appreciate that very much. you are you are providing great resource. to not only enrollment officers, but to CFOs, because CFOs need the information that you put out. And CFOs need highly competent enrollment folks working alongside and you certainly are a big hand in that. What do you feel like every enrollment leader wants their CFO to to know or to better understand? Keith: again, that that's a great question. And I think where I would go with that first and foremost is that we we know we're on the same team. and we we want to be treated like we're on the same team. And so I I think that there's a that there's always a desire to say, how can we collaborate? How can we learn? How can we grow? And how can we ultimately be successful together? Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Keith: And I think that's what if if starting out, again, my relationship with my CFO was very much that it was a desire to just express to him, look, I I don't know what I don't know. And I want you to help me understand what I don't know. And as soon as we started putting some of those puzzle pieces in place, suddenly we're like, okay, we're we're starting to click, right? And we felt like we were starting to get some momentum and we put some some proposals together that really worked. And as soon as I started speaking more of his language, and I I know I keep going back to this, Bruce, but the more I was Bruce Hoeker: Yeah, no, that's true. It's very true. Keith: speaking his language, the more the response became, Keith, you got it. I support you. What Bruce Hoeker: Yes. Keith: are the resources that you need? If I need to go to the president and ask for some additional resources, you've given me. You've told the story that you need to tell me in a language that I understand. Now Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Keith: we can start moving together in step. Bruce Hoeker: It's not a place that we start with full knowledge day one, for sure. This is something Keith: No, absolutely not. Bruce Hoeker: we learn about each other. And really something that changes from person to person. Not all enrollment officers are the same, not all finance officers are the same. So you're learning each other's language as you go, just like in any other sort of relationship. Keith: That's right. Bruce Hoeker: So that it's an important piece of this puzzle for for sure. I have been the CFO and I have met the CFO who didn't necessarily understand the language or or maybe even not truly understand the role of an enrollment officer. And instead of asking about it, I tried to fake it. And I know other CF our CFOs have done the same. We don't want to be embarrassed. You know, we're talking to maybe someone who's more seasoned than us. And in my case, everybody was more seasoned than I was. So how do we get past that? Keith: that's that's great. So I'll give you a practical example that came about this past week. so this week I was at NACAC, which is kind of the big the big brother to you know all enrollment professional development organizations. And so I was invited to dinner with one of our partners that I that I won't name. But what I will say is that I had the the privilege of sitting next to their CEO. And he comes out of a business background and an entrepreneurial background. And so he's been in this role with a marketing firm for about a year. And so his background is, again, not higher ed at all. And so I'm sitting to one side, and one of his team members who used to be a VPEM on a campus was sitting next to him, and a current VPEM was sitting across the table from him. And He he was asking questions and we were just feeding him the answers. And at the end of the night, his response was just fascinating to be me, Bruce. He was literally like, I had no idea. Like I had zero understanding of how the academy works, of the relationship between faculty and administration and the board, the way that that the financial picture plays across the campus. And I was just fascinated by that, that here's a guy running his own business now and and he was still figuring it out. And and we shouldn't assume that everyone on our campus is is as privy. You know, I from my own experience, it wasn't until I was working in graduate enrollment and in the on the graduate side of the house, you tend to get pulled into things like academic discussions. you get pulled into questions about financial like resources, maybe resource, the broader sense of resources. And so my background is a little bit different in that regard. but you know we're we often act surprised and we shouldn't, because we all come from different backgrounds. Bruce Hoeker: Somebody just told me recently, a good friend of mine told me recently, we we work for learning institutions, and sometimes we're afraid to learn Keith: That's right. Bruce Hoeker: because it might cost us something, you know, it might cost us a little bit of our ego, or it might cost us a yes or a no when we weren't planning to do that. And that's an unfortunate place to be. How do we get past that? Keith: It is. Well, it is it it is a challenge to put our own prides pride aside, to put our own self-doubt aside. you know, I I remember multiple times at Ashland saying to my leadership team that my my role as a VP is not to be the smartest guy in the room, it's to surround myself with people who are smarter than me. And it takes sometimes decades to get to that point where you can say, I'm confident enough in my own leadership to say, you know, I'm not I'm not the brightest light bulb if you you know I I I'm just a Bruce Hoeker: I'm really just a theater guy at heart. Keith: theater guy at all. That's right. But the people around me need to know what they're doing. And my goal and my job is to pull them together to be a cohesive team. And then to work in tandem to accomplish the goals that have been set before us. And ultimately that's what, you know, that's what an executive council is on a campus, right? We're all doing the same thing. each one of us has our unique lane that that we need to stay in, we need to do well in that lane, but we have to link arms to be successful. Bruce Hoeker: What a beautiful thing to get to the point in our our career, our own personality, our own mindset to think it's okay for me to learn and maybe I'll seek that out. And it's it really should be freeing in its own way Keith: That's right. Yeah. Bruce Hoeker: and exciting. And because we do work in the world of higher education, maybe learning something isn't necessarily that bad. Would you agree? Embrace it. Absolutely, Keith: That's right. Embrace it. Embrace it. Bruce Hoeker: absolutely. Nearly every business officer listening to this podcast has felt at some point like the enrollment office was spending money the institution didn't have. And nearly every enrollment leader has felt like the CFO did not understand what it takes to fill a class. You now sit in a spot that Keith: Yeah. Bruce Hoeker: oversees almost 400 institutions. What do you want each person on either side To know about the other. Keith: Yeah, that's great. Well, you know, I I'll start with the the side that I'm most familiar with. I'll start with what I think an enrollment manager needs to think about. And that is we are, you know, we as you said a minute ago, Bruce, talking about being in an environment of education. we're also in an environment where let's say that you're working on your accreditation and you have to have evidence of the things that you're doing well. Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Keith: Right. And by and large, enrollment teams will say, Well, I don't have time to track this. I don't have time to collect the data. Our systems aren't set up so that we can really follow how well we're doing. And you share that kind of language or that kind of concept with your CFO. And the CFO's like, Well, clearly you don't know what you're doing. Right. and if you Bruce Hoeker: Right. Yes. Keith: ask for more money. I'm not going to give it to you because you don't know what you're doing with the money I've already provided. And I think from an enrollment perspective, if more VPEMs would take seriously the fact that we are working with the resources we're giving given. And in order to be good stewards of those resources, what we need to do is make sure that to the best of our ability, and I understand, like putting, you know. Trying to put value on a billboard is impossible. But putting value on clicks and you know the the number of students who follow through, you know, and to your web page and how long they spend there, and you have access to data like we've never had before. Bruce Hoeker: Right. Keith: And you have to take the time to use that to create reports to demonstrate that. Look, these three or four str strategies, we can demonstrate that these are the most successful things that we do. And these three or four things, these are the things that have not been as successful. And I think a CFO will also respect the fact that if you're a leader in enrollment management and you make the choice, and I did this multiple times in in this last role, where I said, I'm not gonna ask for additional money to do this new initiative. I have to take it. From the thing that was least successful. And when you do that, suddenly you get the attention of your CFO. And the next time you ask for additional resources, he or she might might pay a little bit more attention when you go, Okay, well, Keith knows what he's doing. He's tracking the success. He's providing data for this new initiative. I'm at least gonna hear him out and and see where if we can provide what he's asking for. Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. How about the other way around? Keith: Yeah. So yeah, from the CFO side, I think I think the thing to understand is, and I'll give a a prime example, is that if I'll use slate as an example since 75% of our campuses use slate as our CRM, that the assumption that all that that the return on investment can always be determined. Bruce Hoeker: Hm. Keith: Slate is not good at that. Slate Bruce Hoeker: Hmm. Keith: there are real challenges with trying to track how a student got into Slate, what they did in Slate. you know, are i is the person you're talking to what were they a first source, a second source, a third source, like Bruce Hoeker: Mm. Keith: what where are they in the process? And so it it it doesn't track all of those things well. And so if you if you if you're trying to use that tool. To provide all of the data, which I think a lot of CFOs would assume, we're spending, a Bruce Hoeker: Right. Keith: significant amount of money on this tool. Can't it give us the answers that we're looking for? my experience has been no. Bruce Hoeker: Hm. Keith: Or what I might, I might take it a step further and to say, or maybe it can provide more if you have a dedicated team who's managing Bruce Hoeker: Mm. Keith: it. And you and I both know that the majority of schools that we work with don't have the resources to hire somebody who only works in Slate or, a second person who only, generates that that data and collects that information. That makes it really difficult. Bruce Hoeker: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So you you spent a lot of time with your members, talking to them, meeting with them, being on their campuses, et cetera. What do you think the percentage is at schools where in an enrollment and the business offices are working really well together as opposed to maybe not so working well together? Keith: Well, I I can only I can only answer that question from hearsay, but I would say that it there's probably a greater than fifty fifty chance that the relationship is not great. Bruce Hoeker: Hmm. Hmm. Keith: and and that that saddens me, but again, I don't know that it should necessarily be a surprise. And but I think part of that is you know, I I think about some of the colleagues that I've worked with who started about the same time I did. And I'd like to say that over the years we got more and more busy because we were taking on more leadership responsibilities and things like that. But I really think that especially since COVID, our jobs are just more difficult. We're just being asked to do more with less. And so Bruce Hoeker: Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. Keith: I and I hate to use it as an excuse, Bruce, but I I really do think that the time that we might have had a decade ago to invest Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Keith: in building the relationships. I know that there were weeks when I never left my office for lunch. Right. I'm just trying to get my job done. And Bruce Hoeker: Sure. Yes. Yeah. Keith: and and that's unfortunate because that time some of that time should have been spent building relationships. Bruce Hoeker: Time lost, unfortunately. It Keith: Yes, it is. Bruce Hoeker: I will I will say, you said it doesn't necessarily surprise you. I'm not sure I can say it surprises me either, but at the same time, it does. We I I know for a fact, at least the vast majority of enrollment officers and business officers have big hearts for their institution. They truly want to serve their institution well. They believe in the mission, otherwise, they wouldn't be there. And if they don't, they're not gonna be there very long. So I I know all of the people we're talking about today really want to do their jobs really, really well. And this is most definitely an area that we're falling down on. Keith: Yeah, agree. Bruce Hoeker: ABACC and NACAP have actually been talking about this exact relationship for probably 20 years. And while we I feel like we've done some good, I feel like there's still so much room. For improvement. This relationship is absolutely critical to the success of our institutions. Keith: Great, yeah. Yeah. Bruce Hoeker: And like I said, we I believe all of us want that. We just have to be a little more aware of how this relationship works and what it means to the institution. We just got to get there somehow. Keith: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Bruce Hoeker: So, well, Keith, we are out of time for today, but I'd like to have you back on the show and continue Keith: That'd be great. I'd love it. Bruce Hoeker: this conversation. Why don't we do that? Keith: Sounds good. Bruce Hoeker: Keith's first move with his CFO wasn't a budget request, it was a meal. When you only meet in each other's offices, he said, it feels like business and it can feel like somebody's turf. Break bread together, and you remember you are on the same team. And I hope you heard his advice for both sides. If you lead enrollment, bring the data and show what's working. If you're the CFO, remember that most enrollment leaders don't have a business background and help them learn the language. Keith's guess is that more than half of our campuses don't have this relationship right yet. Let's change that, starting with lunch this week. Keith will be back soon to keep this conversation going. Thank you for listening to the ABACC podcast. If you heard yourself somewhere in this conversation, you're not the only one carrying it, because we're all working through it together. Come find your people at myabacc.org. Before we call it a day, let's hear about our sponsors one more time.