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Fixing Your Law Firm’s Leaky Funnel with Daniel Steinberg · Legal Late Night

• Jared Correia (00:00:00): Hello everybody. We've got a show that promises to be at least mildly interesting for your listening and watching enjoyment. I'm your host, Jared Correia. I'm the CEO of Red Cave Law Firm Consulting. For the monologue, as we roll into the final four of the 2026 NCAA tournament, I'm all prepped to talk about my favorite Final Fours. In the interview, we've got Daniel Steinberg, of Lawbrokr. For the counter program, we're finally engaging in hard hitting investigation. It's boats and hoes. Now, let's descend into madness. Given the level of professional sports available to me as a Bostonian, I'm not really that into college sports. Honestly, I could not give two shits about Boston College or Holy Cross or whatever. This is not the 1930s. In fact, back in 2024, I did buy tickets to the NCAA tournament in Boston at TD Garden, but I decided to sell them back. (00:01:09): I used some of that money to instead purchase tickets for game five of the NBA finals that year when the Celtics won their 18th championship. I have no regrets. But I do like watching March Madness on the television. You see, there's a lot of things recommending it. For one, it's on during the workday so I can avoid or not pay attention to like working. I have literally no earthly idea about any of the players beyond five dudes, so it's always a learning experience for me. Plus, the nature of the tournament is such that there are always crazy ass games, wild comebacks, and game winning shots. The difference between the NCAA tournament and most sports playoffs is that there are only single game advancements throughout. This encourages more randomness because any team can win a game against any other team in a winner takes all scenario. (00:02:06): In a series of games, the better team wins more often. Plus, there's just so many teams that more games involve first time matchups. So it may be the first time these teams are playing each other that season or for several years. In professional sports, there are fewer total teams and they play or play more regularly during the regular season. So there's some actual familiarity with other teams, which increases preparation and predictable outcomes. There's also the sheer volume of winner take all games in the NCAA tournament. A series of first four playing games has evolved, which has expanded the tournament field to a full 68 teams. There are 67 games played in the current iteration of the tournament. Every single one of them, including an elimination of one team. Every single game has actual stakes. There's no other game to win. This is basically the only time in my life I've enjoyed math. (00:03:15): Plus, there's a betting angle where folks try to pick the entire tournament bracket correctly. Office pools are probably most in vogue this time of year than any other, unless you're counting like Super Bowl squares or something like that. Now, this is where the math gets slightly more unfun because you only have a one in 9.2 quintillion. I didn't know numbers went that high. Chance of predicting the perfect bracket, and that doesn't even include the first four playing games, which you're usually gifted with your bracket. I mean, honestly, I just feel good if I get two teams in the final four. Now, I did consider shelving this entire discussion. You see, one of the ways you know I'm a total douchebag is that my favorite college basketball team is Duke. I actually go to see them play once a year in North Carolina, at least. I also like the Patriots. (00:04:10): I know. I'm the worst. I don't like the Yankees though. Fuck the Yankees. But at least you all had the pleasure of watching the Dukies blow a huge lead against Yukon to lose in the Elite Eight. I was in the car. They were up 19 at halftime and I knew they were going to lose. Honestly, I don't know if this was worse than last year where a team that had Cooper Flag and Khan Knipple choked away, a Final Four game against Houston. I guess they're both bad, but I suppose if I can get through the Aaron Boone home run from game seven to the 2003 ALCS, I can pass through this too. We'll see if John Shire can do the same. Now, modern culture necessitates that I create a list to punctuate everything I'm talking about. I can't just go on and on with scattered musics, right? (00:05:07): Right. So I could have made a list of the best Final Fours, which I was thinking of doing, or my favorite Final Fours, but I decided to land on a broader list. So here it is. Drum roll please. The five most impactful Final Fours ever. Coming in at number five in order of importance. 1991, the Rocky Four Final Four. This is my personal favorite final four. This is also the first year that CBS broadcast all tournament games live. So March Madness had its most exposure ever. This final four is cool in part because it's the most impactful game was in the semifinals. In one of the semifinals, Duke beat UNLV 79, 77. Now, this was such a big deal because at that time, UNLV, the running rebels were the most dominant squad in college basketball. They're starting five featuring Larry Johnson, Stacy Augman, and Greg Anthony, who were all drafted in the top 12 in the NBA draft, by the way, was otherworldly and they fucked everybody up. (00:06:26): Their coach, Jerry Tarcanian, would sit on the bench and chew on a towel while the team just flat out destroyed everyone. It seemed like a fate of complete that UNLV would repeat as champions. The year before, UNLV had absolutely crushed Duke by 30 points in the championship game, so everybody thought they were going to wipe the floor with Duke in the semi-final, but it was not a walkover. Duke pulled off an all time upset, then went on to beat Kansas in a somewhat anticlimactic final for the team's first ever national championship. And Duke would be the ones to go on to repeat, in fact, the next year. That tournament included the famous Christian Leighner shot against Kentucky in the elite eight. And in the championship game, they won over Michigan's Fab five freshman team. This was also during a period in which Duke made five straight final fours from 1988 to 1992. (00:07:23): The first team to do so since John wooden's great UCLA teams who won 10 national championships from 1964 to 1975, which is absolutely ridiculous. So I suppose it helps to have Lou Al Sindor and Bill Walton on those teams. But in the 1991 Final Four, both number one seas had made it. North Carolina and UNLV lost. Just a competitive grouping here. Now, I love it when North Carolina loses, but they fucked us later on when the Celtics drafted bum-ass Eric Montrose in the first round of the NBA draft. Number four, the 1982 Final Four. The final four that saved the NBA part one. Well, sadly, UNC does win sometimes. This final four featured freshmen, Michael Jordan's game-winning shot in the championship game against the Patrick Ewing led Georgetown Hoyas. This cemented Ewing's reputation as a loser. And then namesake for the Ewing theory, while Jordan went on to win six championships with the Bulls, including two, three peats and effectively single-handedly carrying the 1990s NBA, which was pretty boring. (00:08:39): Otherwise, a little too much defense, a little too much hand checking. But there were lots of great players in this Final Four. Ewing, and then Sleepy Floyd, who scored 29 points in a single quarter in an NBA playoff game later on, played for Georgetown, and both James Worthy and Sam Perkins were on the Michael Jordan UNC team. But this Final Four also featured the Louisville Cardinals four years before their eventual championship with another freshman, Never Nervous. Purvis Ellison, one of the greatest nicknames of all time, by the way. And this was also the first Final Four appearance for the University of Houston's Phi Slama Jama team, the high flying squad that featured both Clyde the Glyde Drexler and a team the dream, Elijah Won, who would later go on to win an NBA championship together with the Houston Rockets. Five Slam and Jama had amazing nicknames across the board. (00:09:37): The team, the players, won an era, but they lost to UNC and the semi-finals this season. And in 1983, they lost in the finals to another North Carolina team, Jim Valvano's North Carolina State grouping in a huge upset. Drexler left for the NBA after that game, and Elijah Wan left the next year following Houston's second consecutive championship game lost this time to Georgetown in 1984. Okay, so maybe Ewing was not a total loser. During the 1990s, Jordan, Elijah Wan and Drexler combined to win eight of 10 NBA titles. Ewing hadn't on number three. 1957, the final four that would never end. Before 1979, teams weren't fully seated in the NCAA tournament. Only some of them were. They were grouped into regional brackets still, but more aggressively so in terms of regional consistency as automatic qualifiers and then as at large bids. In 1957, the tournament only featured 23 teams and the NCAA Division I grouping hadn't even been formed yet. (00:10:52): So there was no Division one. It was called the NCAA University Division. This version of the tournament also included a third place game for the Final Four and a third place game for each region, which was more like several fifth place games. Really? Okay. Nobody would play those types of games today. Those games were for losers, obviously. Of course, I didn't see this tournament at all because I was not born yet. However, North Carolina, God damn it, won the championship by winning back to back three overtime games against Michigan State, then Kansas. Okay, that's crazy. I got to throw some respect at them for that. Oh, this played for Kansas. The most outstanding player of the tournament wilt the Stilt Chamberlain. The fourth team in this final four was the University of San Francisco Dawns who had won the last two consecutive championships and we're looking to 3P. (00:11:49): They won those two championships with Bill Russell, we may have heard of who went on to win 11 titles in 13 seasons with the Boston Celtics. That's more like just another quality quartet here. Number two, 1966, the final four that destroyed Jim Crow style recruiting forever. This was another preceding small tournament field of 22 teams, not preceding as before, but preceding like before full-on seating of tournaments. Okay. Interestingly, this was the only NCAA tournament between 1961 and 1982 that did not include UCLA. There were also no Ivy League teams since they objected to a great requirement that the NCAA University division had put in place for that year for players. I mean, you think they would've been okay with that. Anyway, this was Duke's third final forever. They lost to Kentucky in the semi-finals and then won the third place game over Utah by the same score, incidentally, 79, 77, that they would beat UNLV by in the national semifinal 25 years later in that big upset. (00:13:05): But the highlight year was a championship game in which Texas Western, which is now UTEP, the University of Texas at El Paso would defeat Kentucky. Oh, why is this important? Texas Western had a long history of recruiting and playing black players in the South when that was not a common practice by teams. Meanwhile, its opponent, Kentucky, had an all white team. Its coach, Adolph Rupp, was likely a racist. Somebody claim it was the SEC, Kentucky's conference or the university itself that wouldn't let him recruit and play Black players, but in reality it was probably all three. And Rupp was not really out there putting in the effort to recruit Black players like Texas Western and its coach, Don Haskins did. And Rupp was known to have made racist comments during his career. This game, the championship game, was played at the height of the civil rights movement in America. (00:14:06): And Texas Western beat Kentucky becoming the first team to win an NCAA title with an all black starting five. This was probably the most impactful victory in college basketball history. Since almost immediately after it happened, college basketball recruiting, especially for the Southern conferences, which would typically not recruit, or if they did recruit them, would not play Black players. Well, all that changed almost instantaneously. There was almost immediate integration in what had previously been a Jim Crow style recruiting process. Ironically, this basically gutted Texas Western/UTEP's ability to compete for further championships. As a small college, you could recruit elite black talent. When other schools had gentlemen's agreements to only recruit a certain number of black athletes at any given time, they effectively had a massive competitive advantage that disappeared basically overnight. If you want to learn more about Texas Western's win, check out the book Glory Road and/or the Disney movie that was based on the book. (00:15:13): Now, number one, probably saw this one coming 1979, the final four that saved the NBA part two. This was really the first modern NCAA tournament in 1979. It only featured 40 teams, but that was an all- time high at that point and would be expanded to 48 teams the next year. But for the first time this year, every team was ranked, one to 10 inside regional brackets. This was a final four, however, that was all about the championship game. That was the Titanic battle between Michigan State led by Irvin Magic Johnson and Indiana State led by Larry Byrd. Michigan State had lost six games during the regular season, mostly early in the year, but during the tournament, they were fucking wagon. No one had gotten closer to them than 12 points during tournament play, and they had just destroyed Penn by almost 40 points in the national semi-final. (00:16:07): Meanwhile, Bird was dragging Indiana State to the finish line. Indiana State reached the championship game undefeated, and that wouldn't happen again for another 42 years. But really, without Byrd, this team would not even have been sniffing the title game. In fact, it was their first ever NCAA tournament appearance, but this was a magical season for the Sycamores. They even beat the Soviet National Team in an exhibition game before the season started. In the semi-final game against Apollo, Larry Bird went crazy, putting up a 35, 16, and nine line, points revous, and a game that Indiana State won by two to run its undefeated record to 33 and 0. Larry was so dominant in that game, I purchased a signed Bird Indiana State Jersey in Home White, which is the Jersey version the team war in the game to commemorate the performance. Don't believe me, I brought it with me. (00:17:03): Check this out. (00:17:09): In all its glory, here it is right now. Look, that's him signing it. That's his signature. That's the jersey. I don't know. Podcast, props. Can you do better than that? See, Evan would've never let me do that if he was watching me do this monologue, but I can do it because I'm here in my house all by myself. Now where was I? The championship game, oh yes, the championship game. Ah, less exciting than that. The championship game was something of an afterthought as Michigan State roughed up Bird and Indiana State. Bird had a bad game and Indiana State missed a ton of field goals and free throws as Johnson and Greg Kessler carried the Spurtans to a title. What's crazy is that this game still holds the record for most viewers of an NCAA final with 35.1 million people watching it live. The next year, Byrd and Johnson entered the NBA and reinvigorated the league. (00:18:14): At the time, the NBA was at the nadir of its popularity. While Magic and Bird were drawing over 35 million viewers to an NCAA championship game, NBA Finals games were being broadcast on tape delay starting just before midnight. What was a niche sport blew up in the 80s with Byrd and Magic's teams winning eight of the 10 NBA titles for the decade and swearing off for the title three separate times. Sadly for me as a Celtics fan, Bird would end up going one in three versus magic for championships, only winning the NBA title in 1984. (00:18:56): So who's going to win the 2026 NCAA championship? It says here, Michigan over Yukon in the final. Now, for what may be the final boss of CEO interviews here at Legal Late Night, we've got Daniel Steinberg who's talking to us about software intake and then a little something special in the counter program. That's right. Boast and hose. Well, I've effectively run out of things to say, which is awkward because this is a podcast. So I'm just going to pass gas aggressively for several minutes and hope it's not picked up by the microphone. Sorry, I can't even pretend to do that. Well, since you'd be our guest, itstead. It's Daniel Steinberg of Lawbrokr without the R (Lawboker? Lawbroke?). He's the founder and CEO. Daniel, welcome to the show. How are you? Daniel Steinberg (00:19:54): It's without the E, but it's- Jared Correia (00:19:56): Without the E. Fuck. We're off to a terrible star. You Daniel Steinberg (00:20:00): Know what? It's fine. (00:20:02): Yeah, we're there. Good to see you, Jared. How are you doing? Jared Correia (00:20:04): Well, now we'll see if we keep this in, but I said it was law broke, which is not good. Daniel Steinberg (00:20:11): No, that'd be real. Jared Correia (00:20:12): Keep the Rs in. (00:20:14): Remove the E. Lawbrokr. Daniel Steinberg (00:20:16): We're going to keep this in because it's all about having fun on this podcast, right? Jared Correia (00:20:21): Yeah, in theory. How you doing, man? Thanks for coming on. Daniel Steinberg (00:20:24): Yeah, no complaints. It's great to see you. I've been waiting four months to actually come on this podcast and probably four months till this is released. So for those Jared Correia (00:20:33): Listening- So people will be listening to this in the summer. No, this is releasing next week. Daniel Steinberg (00:20:38): Wow. Jared Correia (00:20:39): I'm just throwing that out there because Evan hates it when I timestamp things. Next week, the show's coming out. May I say congratulations on the recent birth of your child. Daniel Steinberg (00:20:50): Thank you so much. That Jared Correia (00:20:52): Is a big deal. Daniel Steinberg (00:20:53): This will be a video podcast, right? My eyes look okay? Yeah. Got my makeup done here before this. Yeah. I mean, Jared Correia (00:20:58): You look a little tired. Daniel Steinberg (00:20:59): Yeah. Okay. That's because I'm running a business. Jared Correia (00:21:02): You're running a business, you have a newborn. So before we get to the business, I always like to ask people about their impressions when they have their first child, because I remember I brought the kid home from the hospital. We did. And I remember that the kid, I had this baby sitting in the living room in a stroller and I was like, "What the hell?" I don't even know what to do. Should I get a drink? Should I watch it? It's such a weird experience. How's it been for you? Daniel Steinberg (00:21:30): It's such a crazy world. It's like you just, "Hey, here's your baby. Go home." It's like, okay, yeah, I'll be a parent for the first time. That's good. ChatGPT is an embedded day nurse for you. It tells you everything you want to hear and tells you that your baby's doing just all right, but it's been good. You know what? Thankfully, I have a great wife at home that's able to sort of help me and support both the baby and my business and get a chance to do both. But it's been amazing. It's definitely an incredible experience for sure. Jared Correia (00:22:07): It's funny, the ChatGPT thing is something I not considered because that was not a thing. Daniel Steinberg (00:22:12): It's Jared Correia (00:22:12): Wild. When my kids were little, but I would've totally been like, "Does my kid have colic?What's going on right Daniel Steinberg (00:22:18): Now?" I haven't asked Claude any advice about my child, but I'm sure it would have deep thinking about something about whatever, the size of his leg. But ChatGPT, it's quite interesting having it to work alongside being parents. You know what? It's great for what it is, but it also says things that you want to hear for the most part in that capacity. Jared Correia (00:22:44): I think it's like an affirmation engine largely, so it's probably going to ... And then you're like, "Should I leave my baby in the cold? Oh, sure. That sounds like a great idea, Daniel." Daniel Steinberg (00:22:54): You know what though, it is helpful for little things that you don't necessarily know and you want to hear about. So it is Jared Correia (00:23:00): Helpful Daniel Steinberg (00:23:01): To an extent. Jared Correia (00:23:02): The mind races. Okay. So before we get to Lawbrokr, which is your company now, I think the first time I talked to you, you were working at Clio. So talk to me about how you ... Let's leave Lawbrokr stuff for it later, but how'd you get to this point? What was your career to the point where you were like, "All right, I'm going to launch a business." Daniel Steinberg (00:23:22): Yeah, I was working at Clio. Your memory's still helping you there. Jared Correia (00:23:27): It slightly functions. Yes. Daniel Steinberg (00:23:28): Yeah. So I have an accounting background. I always want to be an entrepreneur. I fell into tech sales, selling marketing software to large enterprises predominantly in my sort of early days of my career, and then shifted to the partnerships world over at Clio. So I cut my teeth in the legal industry/legal tech space about six plus years ago. I was managing the consulting program, and then my latter half there at Clio, I was managing the app ecosystem. And I don't know, you were a consultant and a tech owner. I don't know. We'll learn more about that after, but best of both worlds. And now you're running a podcast. Jared Correia (00:24:07): I'm like Hannah Montana. Yes. Daniel Steinberg (00:24:08): Yeah, exactly. So you and I were going back and forth. I probably wanted you to send me deals and stuff because that was my job. And naturally we became friends. And yeah, I guess the next time I saw you was six years later at Cleocon this past year. And you walk into a bar, you're like four hours late, you're wearing a hoodie, shorts and a hat. And I'm pretty sure it's like the dead of winter. And I was like, "Hey, were you part of Cleocon?" And I'm like, "Actually, are you Jared, by chance?" I don't think I'd ever met you in person, honestly. Jared Correia (00:24:43): Who's Daniel Steinberg (00:24:43): This Jared Correia (00:24:44): Homeless man in Shorts? Daniel Steinberg (00:24:47): October. Yeah. I don't think I'd ever met you in person before that. So that was a great run-in. It was like a blast from the past. And I'm like, "Yeah, what are you doing now?" And you're like, "You want to come on my podcast?" I was like, "That sounds good." That's how we got Jared Correia (00:24:59): Here. And look at this. I like how you brought it full circle. It is funny that you had me pinned down pretty good. I wish shorts year around, even though I live in New England. Yeah, it's crazy. People are always like, "Dude, it's negative to five degrees outside while you're wearing shorts because- It's a thing. Like prisons. That's fine. I'm walking Daniel Steinberg (00:25:15): My dog sometimes and I'm seeing people dead of winter wearing shorts. I'm like, is everything okay?" They're like, "Yeah, I run hot." All Jared Correia (00:25:23): Right, sure. Everything is fine. So accounting is interesting to me. So how does one get into account? I'm not a math person. I never got it. So what intrigued you about accounting in the first place? Yeah, Daniel Steinberg (00:25:37): I think it helps that my father was an accountant. Oh, there you go. Same story as why every lawyer is a lawyer because their father was a lawyer and they fall into it. No, (00:25:47): Accounting was really interesting to me because I was working in private practice and I always wanted to be an entrepreneur. So the intent for me was to use my career as a stepping stool to get to where I am today. I didn't know I'd start a legal tech company, but I was actually able to, from an auditing perspective, understand the inner workings and operations of a small business. And that was really interesting to me. So that was my sort of intrigue into the accounting world. I actually ended up quitting before I started. It wasn't that interesting to me. I didn't want to become a CPA. That wasn't my end goal and end game. It was a great background to have, but doing that wasn't really what I was focused on doing. Jared Correia (00:26:27): So the legal tech thing, you didn't go to law school, right, from what I recall? How do you fall into law? Daniel Steinberg (00:26:34): Yeah. So I got lucky. About eight to 10 years ago, I was selling advocacy marketing software to major enterprises, like I had mentioned. For me, sales was sort of like a stepping bed, really important to understand how sell yourself, work cross-departmentally, et cetera, et cetera. But I always liked the idea of partnerships. I liked sort of working together in order to get to an end goal. And the VP of partnerships at that company had gone on to be the GM at Clio. And this was back in the day when Clio was 350-ish employees and- Worth this Jared Correia (00:27:10): Scant one billion. Daniel Steinberg (00:27:12): Yeah. And he was looking at the overall landscape of the organization at the time. And there was this really big opportunity and this greenfield opportunity on the partnership side and the consulting program because that has what he had come from prior to that at our other company. And he knew I was always interested in that. And he kind of tapped me and was like, "Is this interesting to you? I really want to sort of elevate this side of the business." And for me, it was giving me an opportunity at a very young age to come into a major organization, spearhead some change in some capacity or another, and almost have this greenfield opportunity, almost be like an entrepreneur inside of a real Jared Correia (00:27:51): Organization Daniel Steinberg (00:27:52): And ended up landing the job at Clio. And it kickstarted my career. I kind of fell in love with the industry. You start to learn that everything surrounding your life is sanctioned by the law and you realize the importance behind what you're building from a legal technology perspective and the inner workings of the people that you get the chance to work with. And I just kind of loved the inner workings of the industry. And I've always been hyper focused in tech and I just, honestly, I got lucky. My worlds collided with the app ecosystem. I was working with 250 plus app partners like Gideon at the Jared Correia (00:28:30): Time. And Daniel Steinberg (00:28:31): I ended up, when Clio got their billion dollar valuation the first time, my job was then to sort of go out there and make us relevant to the Googles of the world and so forth. And I ended up building out this relationship and project with Google on digitizing a law firm online, which was the initial impetus for those listening on the Clio Grow side of things, the Google My Business integration with Clio Grow. And as I started to understand the nuances of that, I was looking at my worlds from ... The company I was previously at was called Influitive, and it was all about advocacy marketing and making your clients your biggest fans. And now it was, "Hey, how do we help you get on Google my business?" Which I felt was a big distinction between what I was doing before. And I felt like there was this massive greenfield opportunity to almost bridge these two worlds between everyday commoditized goods and that of the legal industry and try and build something that helped operationalize the client experience when it came to clients interacting with law firms and vice versa. (00:29:31): And then I took a chance and I took a leap from there. Jared Correia (00:29:34): I mean, I thought you were always on your shit at Clio. Thanks, man. Good on you. Appreciate that. Okay. So it takes a lot of balls to start a company. Everyone thinks about it. I think very few people actually do it. So what was the impetus for you to launch Lawbrokr? Daniel Steinberg (00:29:53): I think at the time I had no girlfriend, no debt, no baby. And I was like, "Yeah, if I'm going to actually give myself a chance at this and this is something that I've always wanted to do, I want to take a stab at doing this. Jared Correia (00:30:07): That's cool. And Daniel Steinberg (00:30:08): I think what's really interesting and everyone's like, "Why'd you start a legal tech company? It's so hard to sell to lawyers, the migration, the onboarding, the training and so forth." My perspective on it was the only way Lawbrokr can be successful as a business is to play into the confines of all the different toolings that people are using today. I don't want to build a company and rip and replace specific functions because it's impossible. You need millions and millions of dollars to scale and grow and convince people that your solution is better than others. And for me, it's like if I wanted to build something with inside the legal space, I wanted to use my knowledge set and niche with inside of their niche down and grow in a very prescriptive way and augment the way that law firms do things today, but do it in a bit of a different way. (00:30:58): So we took a bit of a different perspective, which is probably why we're still alive four and a half years later, but it's hard work. It's not easy. Jared Correia (00:31:06): Yeah. So I want to get into the product itself, but how was it really to launch this? Everybody talks about it and they're like, "Well, I had to eat ramen noodle soup for three years." Is that the real deal?What's it like? Daniel Steinberg (00:31:18): Yeah, to an extent it can. I got lucky I'd raised some initial capital when we started Lawbrokr, it was actually a marketplace and the whole Jared Correia (00:31:27): Intent Daniel Steinberg (00:31:28): Was how do we ... The Avos of the world and all these different market spaces, lawyer.com and so forth, I think are so important. And don't get me wrong, I used to sell advocacy marketing software, but for something that no one has ever used before, it's not like you're making a transaction on Google or Amazon or other e-comm sites. It's hard to look at Jared as a five-star and Daniel as a five-star and say, "I like Jared better." And the initial hypothesis for Lawbrokr was, how do you ultimately understand the nuances of the case and match and recommend the right consumer from there? And to do that and bridge this consumer attorney marketplace costs a lot of money. It's really hard to build a marketplace. So we were lucky enough to have raised a small round to sort of help kickstart the growth of our business. (00:32:12): I mean, that wasn't easy, but it was definitely easier back then than it was today in kind of like the COVID timeframe when things were still a little bit hot on the venture side or even the angel investment side. And so again, timing is everything. I personally was not living off of ramen noodles, and I was very lucky for that. No knock against Jared Correia (00:32:32): Ramen Daniel Steinberg (00:32:32): Noodles. They're good. I have nothing against that. I didn't have to live off that, but it is really hard to jump and kickstart a company. And don't get me wrong, I've had to shift and pivot three, four times to become a profitable company that we are today. So I took a bit of a different approach to get there versus committing to my initial mission and vision. We took a bit of a different couple different paths to get to a profitability point where I didn't have to live that way. Jared Correia (00:33:03): That's a great point because I think most people, you feel like you start a company and you just do the thing, but you got to go where the marketplace goes and you have to be flexible. So I think you make a great point about that. So the marketplace stuff in particular I think is difficult because, and I'm interested in your thoughts on this because you got to bring in both sides of the market. You have to bring in attorneys and you have to bring in consumers. So what was that like? That's got to be really hard to do. Daniel Steinberg (00:33:29): It was awful. The unit sucked. You know what? The unit economics of it were broken. Not being an attorney myself and having different state regulations and the way that bars allow for (00:33:45): Different regulations from referral fees and things like that, we actually had to position our business in a way that didn't scale. We were charging a SaaS subscription fee of whatever it was, $99 a month at the time. And the challenge is you then spend money on Google to drive that initial growth. And the problem is, is that your revenue on the lawyer side might go up and to the right, but the more money that there is a point of no return when it comes to Google where it doesn't have that economies of scale where you tap out. It's not like the more money you continue to ingest, it continues to scale up into the right. So there's a breakage point of how many attorneys you can actually bring on the platform to drive enough growth to the marketplace. And I think that's the biggest issue is the unit economics of the marketplace ultimately broke from that perspective because we couldn't keep feeding the dollars into Google, but we were still a young company that it's not like people were looking up Lawbrokr organically being like, "If I need a lawyer, go to Lawbrokr." And that was kind of like the challenging piece to it. (00:34:44): And for us, what we actually learned early on, and you always got to learn from your customers, but what we learned very early on was the biggest value to our end law firms were the actual end data that we were giving them from a pre-screening perspective made them not waste time on debt-end consultations. They actually knew the nuances of the case and they knew how to prioritize it. And all of them kept saying, "But 99% of the time I get referrals." Predominantly they were solos and things like that that couldn't afford to ingest money into Google and Meta and so forth. So (00:35:16): We're looking at this being like there are so many other places that law firms get clients, Google, social media, Avo, lawyer.com, other marketplaces, referral sources that instead of Lawbrokr being the core source of truth, which is a very hard business model unless you raise 10 plus million dollars, what if we commercialized our core product that we use internally and go 100% B2B? And even though I still believe in the mission to simplify the accessibility of legal services and that's still our mission today and vision for that, it just shifted slightly. Instead of being the core system of truth of how consumers and law firms connect, we're allowing law firms to connect with consumers however they want utilizing our systems. And I think it's just a bit of a mentality shift, but if you don't understand your clients, it's almost impossible to shift that perspective. (00:36:09): And you'd get very ingrained into, don't get me wrong, we were successful from what it was, but it just wouldn't scale. Jared Correia (00:36:19): Okay, great. I know we've done a long end around, a little bit of preamble. What's the product today? If I'm an attorney and I want to get involved in this or a legal consumer looking, what am I getting into? Like 0.6 version? Daniel Steinberg (00:36:33): Yeah, we're a digital intake and marketing solution. So we really help operationalize the way that potential new clients engage with you digitally and on the backside, support your internal teams to understand the data of how consumers are engaging across your magnitude of different sources, whether that be Google, social, Lawbrokr pages and so forth. In order to make sure that you have a better enhanced web traffic conversion, you get clear and concise data and standardization for your intake team. So it's a bit of a three-pronged approach. We sit at the intersection between marketing, intake and operations, and we help scale those teams. Jared Correia (00:37:07): What's the hardest part of that? If you're talking about law firms, where do they fuck up this process the most? Daniel Steinberg (00:37:16): I think it's actually- I Jared Correia (00:37:17): Know it might be hard to choose. Daniel Steinberg (00:37:18): No, I actually think the biggest challenge for law firms is the lack of education on the space. When you actually look at the core focus that Lawbrokr has, the number one use case for why law firms adopt our platform is web traffic conversion. Most law firms are like, "What is that and why is that important?" When they look at their metrics, they're looking at how many visitors came to our website, how many people retained our law firm. But there's this delta in the middle that says, "Out of the people visiting your law firm, how many of those are actually converting through things like your forms or chat or phone calls and things like that? " And that verse that we play in is actually something that's typically overlooked from a leaky funnel perspective. So you might be getting 10,000- Jared Correia (00:38:01): Without a doubt. Daniel Steinberg (00:38:03): Web visitors on a monthly basis and that looks like you're killing it. And that is a good thing. Your brand awareness is doing really well, but at the end of the day, cases come from conversions and Lawbrokr impacts the conversions in that sense. So I think sometimes it's just the mismanagement of what's the problem space? How do we know that we have that issue? And I think part of it is the educational piece. Because Jared Correia (00:38:25): Most lawyers, I think some of them look at Google Analytics, but I think a lot of them don't even do that. So how do the attorneys interact with you in terms of the analytics piece? People into it? They don't. Do you have to convince them to do it? Daniel Steinberg (00:38:40): They don't. We typically work Jared Correia (00:38:43): With- They data. Why do you guys hate data so much? The Daniel Steinberg (00:38:45): Attorneys love the data, but they don't care to live in the tool. So I think you have tools like ... They don't love it enough. Your podcast. So you've got two incredible platforms like Lawmatics and Clio and all these different tools in the marketplace. Lawbrokr's not meant to be into the weeds every single day. We don't typically work directly with the attorney because they deal with the retained clients and the workflows with inside of that. That's smart. Yeah. So Lawbrokr sells and works with marketers, operations and intake teams. So we're working with their problem space and then they're utilizing our platform to roll that up to the attorneys during monthly meetings or whatever that may look like. Jared Correia (00:39:22): That's clever. In terms of the intake tools that lawyers are using, do you have a sense of which ones are the most effective now? Daniel Steinberg (00:39:32): Yeah, it depends on what your needs are. So I think Lawmatics is one of the best CRMs on the market when it comes to the automations, the lead to retain client perspective, Jared Correia (00:39:43): The Daniel Steinberg (00:39:43): Sequencing and so forth. And it's the most similar to that of a non-legal specific CRM. But I look at other tools as well that are great like Entrant into the industry where you have a Clio Grow, you also have a lead docket, you also have other toolings that are built into one. I know ActionStep has their own all in one and so forth. I think at the end of the day, you need something to retain and close your client's period, full stop. Whatever that looks like is going to be dependent on the sophistication of your firm and how much time you want to invest in doing so. That's my perspective on Jared Correia (00:40:17): It. I like how you said you never went to law school, but that was a tremendous non-answer. It depends. Glorious. And it Daniel Steinberg (00:40:23): Really does. I'm not going to sit here and be like, choose this one or choose that one. Yeah, that's fair. Jared Correia (00:40:28): At the Daniel Steinberg (00:40:28): End of the day, I think you need one, period. And it depends on how much you want to invest into it because if you buy something and then don't put the effort in to build it appropriately for your law practice based off your practice areas, but even just the work function of your firm, then it's useless. You want to make sure that you're on autopilot with these toolings and that you're using them to full capacity. Jared Correia (00:40:52): So you've got a world now in which, I mean, all this stuff could be automated. There's AI in place. I mean, in theory, you don't have to talk to a human anymore, hardly ever. But I get a lot of attorneys telling me like, "Well, we do high touch stuff. We like that. " Is there still a place for that in modern law firm intake and conversion- Like people talking to people. Daniel Steinberg (00:41:17): Yeah, I love talking to people. That's why I wanted to come on the show. Jared Correia (00:41:20): Well, clearly. Daniel Steinberg (00:41:22): I think there really is, especially in a very vulnerable industry like legal. Consumers are fairly uneducated on what their issues may be or how you may be able to help them. And I think there's a world that AI should support the legal journey and the legal operating functions, but it can't do it all. For us, the way that I think about intake is really a three-legged stool. Sometimes it's chat, sometimes it's call, sometimes it's digital through a tool like Lawbrokr. If it's something via call or chat, there might be embedded AI functions into that, but you have to give your customers multiple ways to engage with you because not everyone wants to engage with AI voice or AI chat or static forms or things like that. So for me, I think all of those tools are really important because you need to meet your clients where they are. (00:42:13): And if that one client wants to engage that way, you need to be able to provide them that experience. But if they want to engage in alternative ways, there also needs to be that for them as well. Jared Correia (00:42:24): Yeah, I think that's fair. So the idea is give out a lot of options and let people choose and then test which ones are the most effective. Yeah. You just mentioned something I thought was interesting off that top of that response, which was, I forget the word you used exactly, but law firms are somewhat vulnerable in this environment. Where do you see their vulnerabilities flying? Daniel Steinberg (00:42:46): I actually said it's a vulnerable period when consumers are reaching out to a law firm. Jared Correia (00:42:51): Oh, Daniel Steinberg (00:42:51): That's Jared Correia (00:42:52): Much better. All right, explain that. Daniel Steinberg (00:42:55): Well, you know what? At Jared Correia (00:42:56): Least I had one of the words, right? Daniel Steinberg (00:42:58): Yeah, you have listened to me. Selective hearing. You heard the word vulnerable and ran with it. Jared Correia (00:43:04): Better than I do with my family sometimes. Anyway, go ahead. Daniel Steinberg (00:43:08): I think at the end of the day, people aren't reaching out to a lawyer because it's a fun point in their life. (00:43:14): It doesn't matter what the use case may be. It's a challenging situation from them, whether it's a legal matter on the family law side, they're injured in an accident. Even going through an estate plan is confusing, expensive, it's an exhausting period. It's such a human to human relationship and it always will be. And that's why a lawyer is going to say, "I'm always going to take on this case and walk the consumer through this case." There needs to be a piece of that during the intake process. There still needs to be a human touch in some capacity or another. Don't get me wrong. Lawbrokr's a digital solution, but it plays into the end use case, which is an intake team in order to make sure that they have the data to make sure that they can create the relationship with the end consumer on the other side of that. (00:44:01): So I think there needs to just be two sides to that and you need to be very cognizant of that. I use AI tools all the time. It's incredible to scale your business and grow and make you more operationally efficient. It's more of how you actually put them into place. You have to be very cautious of how you do that to make sure that you still breed that human to human connection. Jared Correia (00:44:22): I think you missed your calling as a lawyer. I like how you picked up on that. You were like, "Law firms aren't vulnerable." It's just a vulnerable time on the part of their clients. Very well done. So let me ask you this. So if I'm somebody in the marketing space and I want to work with partner with Lawbrokr, how do I start that up and what should I be looking for from your team? Daniel Steinberg (00:44:41): Yeah. For us, our partners are marketing agencies and marketing consultants that ultimately are helping the growth of a law firm. So when we look at it as the overarching funnel, your job as the marketer is drive growth to the firm and Lawbrokr's job is ultimately to convert that traffic. So there's kind of like two ways to engage. We either typically get introduced from a marketing agency to end customer where they might have a bit of a leaky funnel or they're having issues on the intake management side. Or alternatively, they start to ultimately deploy this across their client's website. So there's multiple different marketing agencies, right? Some build sites and do SEO, others do PPC and ad word campaigns dependent on that. So it just depends on the type of agency. Some of our agencies ultimately stand up Lawbrokr on behalf of their clients when they're building out new websites and things like that. (00:45:31): Other agencies make recommendations on how they can ultimately convert traffic better through Lawbrokr and that's through traditional introduction. So it just depends on how, again, another depends. You're going to keep going after me for that one, but it just depends on the type of agency you Jared Correia (00:45:45): Are going to do. I can't pin you down. Daniel Steinberg (00:45:46): Yeah. Yeah. Jared Correia (00:45:48): You're too good. Speaking of not being pinned down, you told me that you showed up at New York Legal Week for a little bit, a few weeks back. Yeah, four hours. You'll be in ABA tech show. Four hours. I'm impressed that one can do that. And tech show, you're going to make an appearance as well, which is going to happen the week we're recording and this episode will come out the last week. How do you like the conference circuit these days? Daniel Steinberg (00:46:12): Do Jared Correia (00:46:13): You hit it heavily? I Daniel Steinberg (00:46:14): Do hit it heavily. Although every time I have a great event, I get charged for the next year event and I have a conference budget and then I want to go to another one the year after that, but I'm already committed to so many. Jared Correia (00:46:27): They're like, "Get it now. Get the early bird discount." Daniel Steinberg (00:46:30): Yeah. And you know what? They're great. I think being in person is, and again, it goes back to that relationship function, especially in the legal industry. It's such a tight-knit community. People want to see you consistently and often to understand how you work with other law firms and how you communicate and so on and so forth. So I actually love it because I love meeting people in person and I think it's a big part of our strategy. But also just again, I haven't talked to you in years and we bumped into each other and it's like Jared Correia (00:47:00): We Daniel Steinberg (00:47:00): Picked up where we left off. It is a really important thing. I try and go to as many as possible. Sometimes I go for a day here or there if it's easy. I'm in Toronto, so East Coast ones are easy like New York and Chicago and things like that. Others, we do booth events and so forth. I kind of like walking the conference hall and bumping into people in the industry and catching up with them. It's actually organically awesome. I shook four people's hands on the floor at Legal Week and I'm like, it's better than even asking to jump on a Zoom call just going and shaking their hand. Again, it creates relevancy. So I like it. I think there's a lot though, and it's hard to pin down which ones you want to go to and why. And that's a challenge is like you can only scale yourself so much. Jared Correia (00:47:42): What's next for Lawbrokr? Got any exciting features coming out. You can talk about anything you can announce the conferences coming up without getting you in trouble with Daniel Steinberg (00:47:52): Your team. Well, now with my team. Yeah. The only person getting myself in trouble is myself. And the same thing that you did to Evan and committed to a timeline. My technology team, if I gave timelines, that would be challenging. Jared Correia (00:48:03): Oh, good. Yeah, here you go. Put some pressure on somebody. Daniel Steinberg (00:48:07): For us, it's all about data. So the things that we release when it comes to the Lawbrokr platform is how do we expose more data from a transparency perspective to our customers so that they can make smarter and better decisions. So a lot of it is about attribution and beefing up the platform within that regard, understanding the data behind that. But we're also starting to release different tools that add a bit more of this educational component, but also don't allow people to want to have LogBroker as the 10th tab on their computer. I think there's so many different tools and technologies. So we just released recently what we call Lawbrokr Anywhere. It's a Chrome extension. It gives you access to LogGroup Jared Correia (00:48:45): No matter Daniel Steinberg (00:48:45): Where you are. And the reason for that is there's too many operating systems. I want LogMatics, I want Clio, I want Filevine, et cetera, to be your operating systems. That's your core source of truth and I don't want to impact that. So providing them with access to Lawbrokr in different ways so that they can still scale with our platform is really important to us. So for us, it's not so much about feature adding right now. It's more about essentially educating and giving people more access to Lawbrokr in ways that they might have not utilized it in the past. And we're starting to release tooling like that, inclusive of some marketing assistance and things like that to help them understand how to utilize Lawbrokr. The AI that we use internally right now is to help our customers onboard quickly and implement different tooling and things like that. (00:49:32): Now we're allowing them to understand the backend of Lawbrokrs and the inner workings of that through different agents and so forth. Jared Correia (00:49:39): Awesome. Well, congrats on all the success. Congrats on the growing family. Will you come back for one last segment? Daniel Steinberg (00:49:47): I'm back. I'm in. Jared Correia (00:49:48): All right. All right. We'll be right back with Daniel Steinberg from Lawbrokr. Without the E. I did it right this time. All right, we'll be right back. Welcome back everybody. It's The Counter Program. It's a podcast within a podcast. This is a conversational space where we can address usually unrelated topics that I want to explore at a greater depth with my guests. Expect no rhyme and very little reason. Daniel, welcome back. Daniel Steinberg (00:50:18): Thank you. I'm slightly nervous for this one. I'm not sure why. Well, Jared Correia (00:50:22): You're nervous. This may be well placed because we're going to play a little trivia game I built just for you. I know how much you love trivia. Daniel Steinberg (00:50:29): I literally said to you, I'm out on trivia. Jared Correia (00:50:35): I've got a game for you that's going to be fun. It's called Boats and Hoes. Oh, that's good. And it is inspired by the well-known entertainment company, Prestige Worldwide. Are you a Step Brothers fan? Daniel Steinberg (00:50:47): Yeah, I love that. Don't ask Jared Correia (00:50:49): Me a quote anymore. Any movies as Daniel Steinberg (00:50:50): Part of this trivia. Jared Correia (00:50:52): No, no. There'll be none of that. I'll explain how it goes. For each category, I have six categories. I'm going to read you the name of a boat and a hoe, but only one of them is real. Daniel Steinberg (00:51:04): Oh, goodness. All right. Jared Correia (00:51:06): Let's find out if you're an expert in shipping and other stuff. Daniel Steinberg (00:51:09): Do Jared Correia (00:51:10): I need to Daniel Steinberg (00:51:10): Hire a PR team for the release of this podcast? Jared Correia (00:51:14): Possibly. I don't think it would be a bad idea. Oh, Daniel Steinberg (00:51:18): Goodness. I was supposed to Jared Correia (00:51:20): Actually Daniel Steinberg (00:51:21): Rent a boat in Florida at our recent conference. Were Jared Correia (00:51:23): You? Daniel Steinberg (00:51:24): Yeah, we were supposed to host a yacht party and the weather gone in the Jared Correia (00:51:26): Water. Okay. I'm so glad you brought this up because I was thinking like, why am I doing this for Daniel? And then I remembered, I saw a picture of you on LinkedIn on a boat. Photoshopped? Daniel Steinberg (00:51:39): Yes?That was AI. There was like a fifth hand on my shoulder that someone told me and I'm like, it hallucinated. I didn't even realize. It wasn't real. It wasn't real. Jared Correia (00:51:49): So is that still happening? Will there be a boat? Daniel Steinberg (00:51:51): So it was supposed to be a week and a half ago and it was going to be incredible. I was looking forward to it. And of course the weather got in the way and it was unsafe for sailing. Sucks. I know. Sucks. Jared Correia (00:52:02): Next year. Next year. Daniel Steinberg (00:52:04): So you know what? We had to go for a dinner like every other conference. Jared Correia (00:52:08): Oh man. Sometimes we try and be Daniel Steinberg (00:52:10): Different. Yeah, next year we'll do the boat. Jared Correia (00:52:12): So I was trying to think like, why did I put this all together now? I know. See, my mind works in my serious ways. All right. Category one, the royal favorites. The boat. The Mary Rose was King Henry the II's elite warship that mysteriously sank in battle, the Mary Rose. The hoe. Lady Lucinda Gray, an English socialite famous for betting every Duke in London, which is real. Is the Mary Rose a real boat or is Lady Lucinda Gray a real O? Daniel Steinberg (00:52:48): That's a real boat. Jared Correia (00:52:50): Yeah. How'd you know that? I think you feel bad at trivia. You lied. Daniel Steinberg (00:52:54): Terrible. When you're accountant by trade and you go into accounting class and you have to do A or B, it's like you have a 50% chance. Jared Correia (00:53:05): Oh, man. All right. Now, I don't know if I should jinx you, but can I tell you that I've never had anyone do a perfect score in our trivia in the history of this podcast? Daniel Steinberg (00:53:14): There's Jared Correia (00:53:14): No chance I'm getting a Daniel Steinberg (00:53:16): Perfect story. If I do though, what happens? Jared Correia (00:53:19): I'll never live it. I don't know. We have to get you a trophy of some kind, I feel like. Daniel Steinberg (00:53:23): I don't want a trophy that says he won boats and hoes. I can't do that. Are you Jared Correia (00:53:30): Sure? What if it's like a gold bowl or something like that? Your childhood is so proud of you. It's Daniel Steinberg (00:53:36): Kind of like getting the perfect March Madness bracket and we are in the weeds of that. So I'll take a billion Jared Correia (00:53:41): Dollars. Oh, that's true. That's true. All right. Yeah. We'll see about that. Round two. Mediterranean scandals is round two. The boat. The seductress. A gold plated Phoenician galley used solely for high seas orgies, none of which I was invited to. Or the hoe, Messolina. A Roman empress who allegedly competed for body count against prostitutes in brothels. Was Mesolina a real Roman empress or was the Seductress a real Phoenician boat? Daniel Steinberg (00:54:19): No, we got to go with option one. Jared Correia (00:54:21): So you're saying the boat is Daniel Steinberg (00:54:23): Real. The boat's not real. No, the boat's Jared Correia (00:54:25): Not real. Correct. Messolina was a real historical figure. Damn, this accounting background is coming in strong. All right. Two for two. Round three. Round three. No pressure. Daniel Steinberg (00:54:37): All right. Jared Correia (00:54:38): The category is Venetian Vices. So the hoe. Giacomo Casanova, a legendary Italian adventurer, famous for his record breaking sexual conquest. The boat, the grand gondola, a massive multi-level Venetian vessel used for secret floating masquerade party. Sounds like eyes wide shot on the ocean. Was Casanova a real hoe? No, or was the Grand Gondola a real boat. Daniel Steinberg (00:55:09): That grand gondola is for real. Jared Correia (00:55:12): It is not real. Shit. Casonova is real. Daniel Steinberg (00:55:17): All right. Jared Correia (00:55:18): You're doing so well. Daniel Steinberg (00:55:19): One for three. Jared Correia (00:55:21): Yeah, Casanova was a real dude. Daniel Steinberg (00:55:23): Okay. Good Jared Correia (00:55:23): To know. It's the intonation a little bit as well. All right. A chance to redeem yourself with category four. Round four. Nordic legends. Nordic legends. The Vasa, a Swedish warship that sank minutes into its maiden voyage. That's the boat. The hoe is Eric the Eager. A Viking warrior known for pillaging hearts across Northern Europe. Is the Vasa a real worship or is Eric the eager? A. That's how I booked myself into hotels, Eric the Eager. Is that a real hoe? Daniel Steinberg (00:56:08): Let's go with A, the boat. Jared Correia (00:56:11): The boat is real. Yes. Daniel Steinberg (00:56:13): All right, let's go. Jared Correia (00:56:14): I think I sold that one too hard. Daniel Steinberg (00:56:16): I'm one for three right now, so I can- Jared Correia (00:56:17): Three for four. Yeah. Oh, Daniel Steinberg (00:56:18): Wow. Okay.You're Jared Correia (00:56:20): Batting like 750, which is an outrageous batting average.That's pretty good. You could get them all wrong. You get the last two wrong and still be a 500. Daniel Steinberg (00:56:28): And Jared Correia (00:56:28): That's Daniel Steinberg (00:56:29): What I was going for. Jared Correia (00:56:31): Good. Okay. Well, you've made yourself proud here. Okay. We're moving to round five and the category is we're moving to France, French court affairs. Okay. The boat, the Flora de Li. A luxury French frigate built for Louis the 14th and designed with velvet sails and velvet sheets. Or Madam DuBerry. King Louie the 15th, scandalous mistress who rose through the streets to go in between the sheets. Damn, I should be a voiceover artist. Is Madame DeBerry a real hoe or is the Florida Li a real boat? Daniel Steinberg (00:57:13): A. Jared Correia (00:57:13): The boat is real. Daniel Steinberg (00:57:15): No, that would be B. Jared Correia (00:57:16): The boat is fake. Daniel Steinberg (00:57:18): Yeah. Jared Correia (00:57:18): Correct. The boat is fake. The hoe is real. I think we might send you a trophy anyway. How about maybe a nice one of these drinking, one of these water bottles that the companies give you. Yeah. What Daniel Steinberg (00:57:35): Company Jared Correia (00:57:36): Says? Sleep black water bottle. It's Daniel Steinberg (00:57:37): Going to say Lawbrokr without the R. Hey, you became broke. Jared Correia (00:57:41): Oh yeah. Law broke. And then underneath it, it'll say boats and hose. Gold leaf. Yeah. Okay. Put that on the mantle. All right. Number six. Last round. You're kicking ass. Bring it home here. Round six. United States. Category is brotherly love. The CSS Virginia, a Confederate Ironclad Warship that fought during the Civil War. Or that's the boat. And the hoe is Virginia Double Dare, a famous prostitute of the Civil War era who frequented the camps of General Joseph Hooker. Was the CSS Virginia a real boat? Yes. Or was Virginia double dare a real hoa? Daniel Steinberg (00:58:26): Real boat. Jared Correia (00:58:27): Real boat. Real boat. Five of six. Stunning. Stunning performance. Daniel Steinberg (00:58:34): I'll be honest. It was all luck. Jared Correia (00:58:36): No, you used your accounting skills. Daniel Steinberg (00:58:38): You know what I actually used? It was impressive. I can read the way that you asked the question. You read my mind. Fuck. We spent 40 minutes talking to one another. I kind of know your shtick. Jared Correia (00:58:49): I got to step up my game. Joe Hooker, do you- I Daniel Steinberg (00:58:53): Think you need Evan to ask the questions moving forward. Jared Correia (00:58:55): Maybe I should. Evan hates being on camera, but maybe I'll get him to read one of these. Are you familiar with Joe Hooker, the general? No. During Civil War? He's a real general. Daniel Steinberg (00:59:06): Are you a historian or something? Jared Correia (00:59:09): I love history, yes. But he was a real general, and that's where the terminology hooker comes from because he had so many prostitutes in his camp. All Daniel Steinberg (00:59:17): Right. Well, I'm glad we can- Well done, Jared Correia (00:59:18): Sir. Daniel Steinberg (00:59:18): And the podcast with that. That's really interesting. Jared Correia (00:59:22): Your prize will be in the mail. Thank you for coming on. We'll do it again sometime. Daniel Steinberg (00:59:26): Jared, thanks for having me. Jared Correia (00:59:28): Thanks for our guest, Daniel Steinberg, the founder and CEO of Lawbrokr. To learn more about Daniel and Lawbrokr, visit Lawbrokr.com, L-A-W-B-R-O-K-R.com. Leave out the last e, Lawbrokr.com. Now, because I'll always be a nineties kid who was busy reading pick a path, choose your own adventure books, but the true passion is burning CDs for anyone who would listen. I'm now just doing the modern version of that, which is creating Spotify playlist for every podcast episode where the songs are tangentially related to an episode topic. For this week's playlist, I stole my dad's boat and used it to film a music video. Oops, it's run a ground. I did it again. That's right. It's the boats and hose playlist. We've got boats. We've got hose and it's all sponsored by the limited edition Chubaka Pez Dispenser, not with individual peds, but whole packs. Sadly, that's lie. (01:00:31): That scene didn't even make it into the final cut of stepbrothers. What the fuck? Join us next time when I T-bag your drum set.