Latest / Beyond Sunday Worship Leader Podcast / Matt Chandler on God's Vision for The Church, The Power of Singing, & The Creative Process

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Matt Chandler on God's Vision for The Church, The Power of Singing, & The Creative Process · Beyond Sunday Worship Leader Podcast

• 0:00
  Well, I'm excited today.
• 0:01
  It's a special treat to have Pastor Matt Chandler here on
• 0:04
  the Beyond Sunday podcast.
• 0:06
  How you doing today, Matt?
• 0:07
  treat.
• 0:08
  I'm doing good.
• 0:09
  Why is it a special treat?
• 0:10
  Well, you know so my podcast is, is geared more towards like worship leaders.
• 0:16
  So most of the time I'm talking to like songwriters and worship leaders.
• 0:21
  So talking to pastors is, is a treat because it's a little bit more.
• 0:26
  So that's why I'm
• 0:27
  Okay.
• 0:28
  There it is.
• 0:29
  I was like, okay, let's go.
• 0:31
  Matt, we're going to talk a lot about your book.
• 0:33
  I got it right here.
• 0:34
  And I gotta say, man, I've been loving this and I'm about
• 0:37
  two thirds of the way through.
• 0:39
  But what I wanted to do before we kind of do a little bit of a deep dive into what
• 0:43
  this book is about, I wanted to shout out like a couple quick, like references
• 0:48
  from the book that I appreciated.
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  And I just wanted you to just kind of comment on them quickly.
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  But the first one being Lord of the Rings.
• 0:57
  So I really appreciated the early Lord of the Rings references.
• 1:00
  So how deep does your L O T R fandom go?
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  I'm more, I probably would describe myself as one who respects
• 1:10
  more than I nerd out too much.
• 1:13
  So I, I, I'm no expert, but the way my brain will work is when
• 1:18
  I'm around a concept for whatever reason a conversation and Lord of
• 1:23
  the Rings will pop into my head.
• 1:25
  And it's funny because when I was working on this book, it kept happening.
• 1:29
  And I'm like, I haven't touched those books in a while.
• 1:32
  And so then I had to go cite them and source them.
• 1:35
  And then sometimes I was like, Oh, that wasn't in the book that was in the movie.
• 1:38
  And then it was a, so it was a big nightmare citing
• 1:41
  those, those bits in the book.
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  But certainly Tolkien was a genius and I would love if the Lord would send
• 1:48
  us another couple of those in our day.
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  But wouldn't that be excellent.
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  And maybe they're here and we just don't know.
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  So,
• 1:55
  I'm a little bit more of a nominal fan.
• 1:57
  I guess I've actually seen all the movies, but I have not read all the books.
• 2:00
  I'm ashamed to say, but my brothers, my brothers can basically speak Elvin.
• 2:05
  So it's a, it's pretty impressive.
• 2:07
  So,
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  That's yeah, very impressive.
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  I am not that level.
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  I'm probably like you.
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  I've got a respect for it.
• 2:15
  I can appreciate the genius of it and then move on with my life.
• 2:20
  I wanted to mention too you mentioned the movie A Thief in the Night, and I still
• 2:24
  have PTSD from seeing that movie as an 8 year old kid and so, I'm just curious,
• 2:29
  like, do you think this generation, like, even knows about that movie?
• 2:34
  I don't think so.
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  I think they probably know more of kind of the left behind and maybe,
• 2:39
  maybe you, you start talking gen alpha, probably not even that.
• 2:44
  And so, but if you're in a church that still teaches that way, then, then
• 2:49
  you're getting a steady dose of it.
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  I think the movies have run the, even though I think Nicolas
• 2:53
  Cage, they did another one with Nicolas Cage more recently.
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  So I don't know, man, it's not, it, it certainly has captivated the imagination
• 3:04
  of people, whether Christian or not, this
• 3:07
  It's interesting.
• 3:08
  Cause when I found out your book was kind of based on the book of revelation and
• 3:13
  immediately you mentioned that movie, I'm like these, like this trembling from like
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  how terrifying that movie was, you know, that you didn't want to be left behind and
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  I literally, there's a the wife of one of my closest friends, when she
• 3:28
  heard I was going to preach through revelation for 12 weeks, she was
• 3:31
  like, well, I'll be back after.
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  Like I'm, I'm, I'm skipping this and I'm like, no, no, no.
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  Hey, listen, this book's incredible.
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  And she's like, no, I know and I'll see you when it's over.
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  And so there is this kind of a latent fear about the book and I, and I
• 3:48
  blame a lot of that stuff on it.
• 3:50
  Yeah.
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  Well the way that you break down the book of revelation, like in this book
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  is very understandable and practical and, and we'll dive into that.
• 3:58
  But another one stranger things.
• 4:00
  So It sounds like that you've binge watched this series and are a fan.
• 4:07
  Am I right?
• 4:09
  Yeah, I, I appreciated Stranger Things much to some people's chagrin who were
• 4:14
  quick to let me know how demonic it was.
• 4:16
  But we, we watched it and I could see the parallels of the upside down world.
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  And like, like to me, I was, I was like, yeah, we've got an enemy like that.
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  He's sneaky like that.
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  He tries to break into the world like that.
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  He tries to manipulate like that.
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  To me, I was being encouraged in the Lord through that series.
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  And so, yeah, I watched it and liked it.
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  Yes.
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  And especially the soundtrack, the soundtracks were
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  Oh my goodness.
• 4:42
  Yeah.
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  That's, that's probably the best part in my opinion.
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  I mean, I was born in the eighties, so I can appreciate, appreciate that sound.
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  That whole mall thing was my
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  Oh, you went to that mall.
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  That I was literally at that mall.
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  Love it.
• 5:00
  And last little reference here, Matt, you talk a little bit about J.
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  I.
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  Packer and John Piper.
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  And I wonder if, you know, you could briefly just talk about what those men
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  have meant to you and your ministry.
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  Oh man, that's gosh, I don't even know where to begin on that.
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  I was gosh, I think it was passion 98.
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  And so I'm a college kid and I'm down there in Austin and you know, everybody's
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  so cool and then comes this little guy in a tweed jacket, looked like my
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  grandpa except smaller, looked like he could fit in my grandpa's pocket.
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  And man, I was not ready.
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  for what was coming next.
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  And by the end of that sermon which really was seeking to answer the question, did
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  Jesus die for us or did Jesus die for God?
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  I felt simultaneously disoriented and in awe in a way that I'd
• 6:01
  never really felt about the Lord.
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  I'd felt gratitude towards the Lord.
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  I had felt a level of happiness in the Lord, but I think that was the first
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  time I felt what the Bible means when it talks about a fear of the Lord.
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  It wasn't scary.
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  It was majestic in a way that disoriented me.
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  And so Piper.
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  opened the door on, I think what everybody calls big God theology in a
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  way that my little first Baptist church self being encouraged by Max Lucado
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  and that, that there's no smoke there.
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  That's how, that's where the Lord was ministering to me.
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  John opened that door and I, I just never recovered.
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  And so it was actually Piper that led me to Packer.
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  And then reading, Knowing God had a very similar effect on me.
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  And so those two guys kind of became my early year heroes in the faith.
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  And I just, if they read it or if they wrote it, if they said it,
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  if they preached it, I was reading it, listening to it, devouring it.
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  And and so those guys are huge in my spiritual formation.
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  And to this day probably affect how I read and understand the scriptures.
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  How I understand the nature and character of God.
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  And they've certainly left their mark on me.
• 7:23
  Yeah.
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  So good.
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  My Piper story is, so I went to Bible college in downtown Minneapolis at an
• 7:31
  Assemblies of God university, and it was two blocks from Bethlehem Baptist church.
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  And so I always joke, you know, in Bible school, me and my friends,
• 7:40
  we didn't sneak out to go to clubs.
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  We snuck out to go to hear John Piper preach on Sunday which was,
• 7:46
  Don't tell anyone.
• 7:48
  it was an experience, man.
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  Just, he's just like a mad scientist preacher who takes, and, and, you know,
• 7:56
  I would put you in this category too, of just someone who takes the preaching of
• 8:00
  God's word with, with utmost seriousness.
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  You don't take yourself seriously, but you take the delivery and
• 8:07
  preaching of God's word so serious.
• 8:09
  And I just, it was like a seminary education sitting in those Those
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  services, and especially when it was book Sunday, he would give
• 8:17
  away a book to the entire church.
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  Those were the best days.
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  So
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  I love that.
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  Yeah.
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  Maybe we should start doing
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  there you go.
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  There you go.
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  Handing out books.
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  Yeah.
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  your book here.
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  The overcomers maybe before we do that, let's Just talk to us a little
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  bit about your calling to be a pastor.
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  I know that's probably a big question and could be answered a million
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  different ways, but what led you to your decision to pursue pastoral ministry?
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  Yeah.
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  I think there were two different seasons.
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  The first season was I'd got my first job at a church and it just did not go well.
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  I was hired to be a student minister.
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  Gosh, I was 19 I'd been saved about a year and some months when they hired me.
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  And what went well is the youth group grew and we were seeing kids become Christians.
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  What didn't go well is my lack of understanding of church politics.
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  My, my, I didn't understand the sacred spaces of the parlor
• 9:25
  or where the sacred cows were.
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  None of that made sense to me because I wasn't a church kid.
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  And so I was constantly stepping on landmines.
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  I was constantly in trouble.
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  But in my head, I'm just like, we're growing and kids are becoming Christians.
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  And, and that was not met.
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  And I'm sure, listen, I, I'm sure I was.
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  Hard to take.
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  I have gotten more nuanced as I've gotten older.
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  I certainly don't think I was back then.
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  And so I'm sure, I'm sure there were several meetings about me
• 9:57
  that I never knew about as they tried to solve the problem of me.
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  And, but I, When I left for school, I just had decided, I don't know how this works.
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  I know I can teach.
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  I love to teach.
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  I love to study and teach.
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  So in my mind, that experience led me to just kind of imagine a
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  future for myself where I was a successful lawyer with a crud ton
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  of money and a hot wife and a BMW.
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  And and has a great Sunday school class at First Baptist of wherever.
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  And that was kind of what I'd left my first church job thinking.
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  And then I end up in Abilene, which is much too long of a story.
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  And I'm political science.
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  I'm, I'm chasing the dream.
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  And I start teaching this like large ecumenical Bible study there.
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  And it just kind of explodes is the first time I'd got caught up in something.
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  I mean, it was thousands of college kids.
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  Yeah.
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  I'm one of them teaching them.
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  And I'm at Denny's late night.
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  I mean, it was IHOP super late one night.
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  And a girl named Christie just said, so when'd you, when'd you,
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  when'd you get called to ministry?
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  And so I was like, well, I'm not, I'm not called to ministry.
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  I'm not a Bible major.
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  I'm not that that's not.
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  And I, she was like, well, okay, but I think you probably are.
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  And then I explained to her the whole backstory on this little church I
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  worked at and how it went bad and how I didn't see how I fit in that
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  world and how I saw often that world is a hurdle to the things that God
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  had put in my heart to see happen.
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  And she just listened to me talk.
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  And, and then when I was done, she said, I hear you, I appreciate all of that.
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  And I, I still think you're probably called into vocational ministry.
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  And for whatever reason, man, that.
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  Haunted me man, I just wrestled with that and wrestled with that.
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  And then, you know, finally gave in to the Lord and went and changed my major
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  and rest is history at this point.
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  Amazing.
• 12:00
  Matt, so the, the book of revelation, right?
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  So I think this may be the most avoided book for the average Christian, or
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  maybe just the most misunderstood.
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  Like what do you even do with all of this imagery?
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  Like it just seems so distant from our life in so many ways.
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  What inspired you to write a book on Revelation?
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  Well, I don't know that I started out thinking I was going to
• 12:29
  write a book on revelation.
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  I think my burden was, and it started as a sermon series, but I, it started
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  as a burden to help the church that I pastor coming out of 2020 and 2021.
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  And it just felt like to me that the people I was trying to lead and love
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  Seemed paralyzed or stuck to me.
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  That between COVID and the stuff that happened with race and the stuff that was
• 13:00
  going on politically, that the anxiety and the outrage of those two, three
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  years, and maybe it goes back farther.
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  Maybe it started in 16.
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  I think you could argue it was five or six years long, but certainly those two
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  years were heightened and charged that The men and women I was trying to encourage
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  to live faithfully as disciples in this day seemed to me paralyzed in the moment.
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  And, and, and more than they were like acquiescing to culture
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  or they just felt stuck to me.
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  So a lot of doom scrolling and Netflix binging and not stepping into
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  this moment that God's given to us.
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  And so I started just feeling that in my bones, and I just happened to be in
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  my own Bible reading plan revelation at the time where all of that was.
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  I was trying to kind of figure out how to encourage them in
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  this season that we were in.
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  And I began to see in Revelation some things that I hadn't seen before that
• 14:04
  were encouraging me and provoking me.
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  And so then I, and really, well, it was chapter 12 that was provoking me
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  chapter 12 and 13 that was provoking me.
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  And so I started studying and started researching.
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  And then I came back to our team and I said, Hey, I want to
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  preach the book of revelation.
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  They're like, what?
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  How about this?
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  We're going to do Romans and men's and women's Bible study.
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  Why don't you air war Romans?
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  And I was like, I hear you.
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  I need to do revelation.
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  So a group of us went away.
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  For three or four days and we all read and studied and argued it down
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  to the ground and I began to write and then started to preach through it.
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  And it, it was resonating at the village in a way that, that I think I've only
• 14:50
  experienced one other time in 23 years.
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  It started resonating outside The Village in a way that I don't think
• 15:00
  anything I've ever done resonated before.
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  I mean, I think last, last I heard there were millions of people
• 15:05
  that have watched that series now.
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  And, and so I was actually working on a different book, a
• 15:11
  book on friendship with Jesus.
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  And I had a good friend that was like, Hey, shove that one to the
• 15:17
  side, take this and write it.
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  And I was just like, ah, yeah, I mean maybe one day.
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  And then had another friend do the same thing.
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  That friend actually knows my agent and texted my agent.
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  He needs to be doing revelation.
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  And so then after two people and my agent, I was like, okay, let me get to work.
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  And so then started to write The Overcomers
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  yeah, well it is, it is such a good challenge.
• 15:45
  It's like a little, if I may, like kick in the pants, right?
• 15:49
  I feel like to believers because, and I was, as I'm, as I'm reading
• 15:53
  it, I'm thinking You know what?
• 15:54
  Like I'm a little too comfortable as a Christian, a little too passive.
• 16:00
  And I think that it's almost an oxymoron to say that, you know,
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  like a passive Christianity.
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  But I think the more you are a Christian, the easier it is to just
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  build a lifestyle that's comfortable and just say, I'm a Christian.
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  Whereas what you're writing about in this book is like, let's
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  put some feet to our creeds.
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  Let's rise up in faith.
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  Let's believe you know, that God is moving in our generation and, and really
• 16:32
  encouraging us to, to step out, you know?
• 16:36
  So what are, what are you hoping People take away from this book.
• 16:42
  Like, what's your ideal, like, I would love to see the
• 16:45
  people of God step into this.
• 16:48
  Yeah.
• 16:49
  I, I think a lot of what you're saying is what I'm hoping for.
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  I'm encouraged by what you're, you're saying you're feeling and experiencing
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  when you're reading the book, because that's exactly what I'm after.
• 17:01
  I'm, I'm after.
• 17:02
  By the grace of God, a renewal and an awakening of the people of
• 17:07
  God to live into this moment of history that's been given to us.
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  I mean, I understand all the complexities of our day.
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  I understand all the wars, the political pressure, the cultural issues.
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  And yet at the same time, we are God's big plan for this moment.
• 17:26
  Like nobody's coming to bail us out of this, right?
• 17:28
  GK Chesterton isn't going to show up and critique the
• 17:31
  political environment we're in.
• 17:32
  CS Lewis and Tolkien aren't going to write us out of this with great
• 17:37
  storytelling and cultural engagement.
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  No, it's us.
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  And it feels if we're paralyzed and won't own the moment that
• 17:46
  he put us in, then I think we're missing out on a lot of blessing.
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  And, and I think we're, we're asleep at the wheel.
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  And so I wanted to write a kind of serious rah rah book.
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  For us to lean into this moment, believing in my guts that everyone
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  listening to this right now has been uniquely wired by God for this exact
• 18:10
  moment, uniquely placed by God for this exact moment and uniquely gifted by God.
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  for this.
• 18:17
  Like the kingdom of God has not spread across the globe through
• 18:22
  blue check celebrity charismatic
• 18:25
  extroverts That's not how it's worked.
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  It's changed the world through the everyday faithful presence of stay at home
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  moms and welders and C suite leaders and artists and the cobblers making shoes.
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  And the, and so in one way I'm trying to hand this glorious thing back to people
• 18:51
  that are never going to have blue checks by their name unless they pay for it.
• 18:54
  Hmm.
• 18:57
  I love that.
• 18:58
  I love this quote I'll just read a little, little portion of the
• 19:01
  book here, Matt, in your own words.
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  But the real Jesus is an inexhaustible well.
• 19:06
  The dragon wants you to grow bored with him.
• 19:09
  There are delights to be discovered and glories to be marveled in
• 19:12
  that will expand your worship and fuel your praise and gratitude.
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  If the dragon can keep you bored with Jesus or get you to doubt the
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  goodness in his moral law, you become vulnerable to believing false things.
• 19:27
  And then you also talk about in the book like how Sunday morning attendance won't
• 19:31
  be enough for the fight that you're in.
• 19:33
  I just, I love that.
• 19:34
  Like that's just such a, let's rise up.
• 19:37
  Let's go.
• 19:38
  And if, if We're bored with Jesus.
• 19:41
  Then there's something, there's not something wrong with Jesus.
• 19:44
  I think if there's something wrong with us,
• 19:47
  Yeah, there's, there's just no question that we've lost our sense of who he is.
• 19:52
  And this is, this is that idea that even the apostle Paul's trying to
• 19:56
  get at when he's like, Hey, don't presume upon the Lord's kindness.
• 20:02
  Don't presume upon it.
• 20:03
  Don't go to sleep on how incredible this is.
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  That every morning when you get up, there's new mercy for you.
• 20:10
  Amen.
• 20:10
  And that hasn't made God diminished in any way.
• 20:14
  It is not, it is not making Jesus tired to continually and perpetually extend
• 20:22
  grace to you through his shed blood.
• 20:25
  Like that in and of itself I think should blow our circuits that
• 20:31
  like he's not, he doesn't regret what he purchased on the cross.
• 20:36
  Yes.
• 20:37
  He's not asking for a mulligan.
• 20:38
  He knew exactly what he was buying.
• 20:41
  And that's unbelievable.
• 20:44
  As I consider 32 years of trying to follow him with imperfect responses
• 20:49
  and stumbling and spiritual adultery and all the nonsense that's followed
• 20:55
  me on this long journey home.
• 20:59
  Matt, can you talk a little bit about one of the parts in the book that I really
• 21:02
  loved was your sort of description or.
• 21:07
  Just how you defined the mark of the beast, right?
• 21:10
  That's such a big, you know, six, six, six, like, Ooh, you know, spooky.
• 21:15
  And I love how you, you talk about how the number seven is like a
• 21:18
  number of completeness in scripture.
• 21:20
  Whereas like the number six is, I think what you said is, you
• 21:23
  know, incomplete talk, talk about.
• 21:26
  You know, just the mark of the beast and the way you explain it in the
• 21:30
  book without giving away too much.
• 21:31
  We want people to read the
• 21:32
  Sure.
• 21:33
  No, I, I can give it, I'm give it all of it away.
• 21:35
  And then you can kind of see what I've built around it.
• 21:37
  So if, if you look at like the Shema or, or you look at, maybe this would help.
• 21:45
  I read one theologian said, there's nothing in revelation that isn't
• 21:50
  already in the Bible somewhere.
• 21:52
  That there are over 500 either direct quotes or allusions to the Old Testament
• 21:58
  in the book of Revelation alone.
• 22:00
  And so a lot of times what we're seeing in Revelation is meant to provoke
• 22:05
  the reader's imagination to something they know about in the Old Testament.
• 22:11
  The, the old Testament.
• 22:12
  And, and so if we think about six, six, six, and we think about the
• 22:16
  location being on the forehead and on the hand, which is where the law of
• 22:22
  God is meant to be written, we, we see that we're looking not at some sort
• 22:28
  of chip that Elon Musk is going to put in our brains, but ideological belief
• 22:34
  that has an outworking in practice.
• 22:37
  And, and so when some people hear me say this.
• 22:40
  They're like, well, no, that can't be because the mark of the beast is
• 22:44
  the thing you need to buy and sell.
• 22:47
  But, but I think already, already in the environment we're in, which
• 22:52
  isn't outright persecution, we're just an annoyance to the world.
• 22:56
  You're seeing people lose their jobs over and not be hired over
• 23:02
  ideological belief and practice.
• 23:05
  And so in a lot of cases, even our capacity to make money in the
• 23:11
  financial system in the West is having an ideological litmus test.
• 23:18
  Before you can play like you're not going to find in, you certainly not right now.
• 23:23
  And I think it'll get worse before it gets better.
• 23:26
  You're not going to find too many CEOs and CFOs and COOs of fortune 500
• 23:32
  companies that don't, don't align with the ideological beliefs of the left.
• 23:38
  And, and then if you can't be in the C suite Unless you aspire
• 23:44
  to those things or unless you, you belong to those ideologies.
• 23:48
  then you can start watching that trickle down as people are hired.
• 23:53
  And then you've got all sorts of initiatives in like training on,
• 23:58
  you know, cultural sensitivities.
• 24:00
  And you've got to be able to sign some things that I think the Christian should
• 24:03
  have a very difficult time signing.
• 24:06
  And so I think you're already seeing the first fruits of not being able
• 24:10
  to buy or sell without the mark.
• 24:12
  So I don't believe, and, and for a long time.
• 24:16
  People didn't believe that this was going to be some sort of
• 24:19
  physical marking, but actually it has to do with ideological belief.
• 24:23
  And then the outworking of that belief in daily life.
• 24:27
  And so that, that's how I've interpreted it.
• 24:29
  That, that's how for an extended period of time in Christian history,
• 24:33
  it was thought of the last 150 years have gotten a little janky and weird.
• 24:37
  But that, that's historically how this idea has been thought about.
• 24:39
  yeah, you said it, you phrased it a certain way in the book where
• 24:44
  you said the like number seven being complete, but six being,
• 24:47
  you want to talk
• 24:48
  yeah, just
• 24:49
  So yeah, that's fun.
• 24:51
  That's fun.
• 24:52
  So seven is like the number of perfection completion and, and so is three.
• 25:00
  And, and so the number six, six, six is 666.
• 25:06
  I think it's how it read is three sixes.
• 25:09
  Six, but six being incomplete so that the work of the enemy,
• 25:13
  the work of the dragon and the henchmen are completely incomplete.
• 25:17
  So the best the enemy can do is mimic the perfection of
• 25:23
  father, son, and Holy Spirit.
• 25:25
  So the ideologies that are meant to save us and lead us to this utopia
• 25:31
  that unbelievers are promising us, is completely incomplete.
• 25:37
  And that's one of the things we see in those ideologies
• 25:41
  is they're not going to work.
• 25:42
  Something else you said, Matt, that really stuck with me is, You know,
• 25:46
  just rightly interpreting scripture.
• 25:48
  I think you said at the beginning of the book that the letters to the
• 25:51
  churches in revelation were not written to us, but they are written for us.
• 25:58
  Talk about that, you know, cause I think sometimes as, as we're
• 26:00
  reading the scripture, we can kind of take things out of context.
• 26:06
  And so just getting the right context around the letters in the book of
• 26:10
  revelation, where it's written for us, but not necessarily written
• 26:13
  directly to us as individuals.
• 26:16
  Yeah.
• 26:17
  Yeah.
• 26:17
  So, and this is honestly like It's like hermeneutics 101.
• 26:22
  The scriptures interpret the scriptures and revelation lets us know what it is.
• 26:27
  We don't have to guess.
• 26:28
  You see in verse one that it's an apocalypse.
• 26:31
  It says the revelation of Jesus Christ, that word revelation,
• 26:34
  apocalypsis means an unveiling.
• 26:37
  So we see right first sentence.
• 26:40
  Jesus is going to unveil the ultimate reality for John and those believers in
• 26:47
  96 AD and for the rest of us across time.
• 26:51
  We see that it's a prophecy, not necessarily that it's futuristic, although
• 26:57
  there are some futurist parts of the book, but it's more thus sayeth the Lord.
• 27:02
  And we also see in verse three.
• 27:05
  That, that it's a book of discipleship.
• 27:07
  It says, blessed is he who hears these things and keeps them or does them.
• 27:14
  So, so, and then right after that in verse four or five, it says,
• 27:19
  and to the, the a letter to the seven churches of Asia minor.
• 27:23
  So it's a letter.
• 27:25
  And if we're reading rightly, that means it cannot mean to us
• 27:31
  What it did not mean to them.
• 27:33
  This book was written to a specific people at a specific time in a specific place.
• 27:39
  And so there's a group of people that would treat revelation like it
• 27:43
  only applies to the last generation that's here before Christ returns.
• 27:49
  But the book doesn't let you interpret it that way because it tells you what it is.
• 27:55
  It's a letter like Philippians, like Galatians.
• 27:58
  It's prophetic like Isaiah, like certain, and it's apocalyptic
• 28:02
  like Ezekiel and aspects of Daniel and some parts of Isaiah.
• 28:06
  And so all of those components are there.
• 28:09
  And when you start doing stuff like reading the newspaper and
• 28:12
  laying it across revelation, you start sounding like really foolish.
• 28:17
  And so I am 100 percent confident that the locust we read about when
• 28:23
  the bowls of wrath are poured out are not the Apache helicopter.
• 28:28
  I'm just a hundred percent confident that that's not what's going on here.
• 28:32
  I'm fairly certain that the solar eclipse that just happened across the
• 28:36
  United States wasn't lined up with something we're seeing in revelation,
• 28:40
  especially when one of those happens somewhere in the world, every six
• 28:43
  months, it's a very Western American way of reading the book of Revelation.
• 28:49
  And I would just.
• 28:51
  Categorically reject it and say that the book of revelation was, was not
• 28:56
  written to us, but it was written for us.
• 29:00
  And that means it cannot mean to us what it did not mean to them.
• 29:05
  no, that's so good, Matt.
• 29:08
  I want to shift gears a little bit.
• 29:09
  Not too much, but when I started this podcast Beyond Sunday I'm a
• 29:13
  worship pastor, a worship leader.
• 29:15
  And, and so my desire has always been to resource local church,
• 29:21
  worship leaders and worship pastors.
• 29:23
  And it's interesting, even in this book, you, you talk a lot about.
• 29:28
  Worship and singing like that topic comes up a lot.
• 29:32
  And I know that your wife is a worship leader.
• 29:34
  And being a, being a pastor of a local church, you know, worship is an important
• 29:39
  part of just the life of the local body.
• 29:42
  But I wanted to ask you this when it comes to a worship leader, like
• 29:45
  what are the qualities that as a lead pastor, what do you look for?
• 29:50
  in a worship leader.
• 29:56
  lowliness before the Lord.
• 29:57
  I'm looking for an understanding of the scriptures.
• 30:02
  Looking for a zeal for his name a zealousness of spirit to woo people
• 30:10
  into seeing Jesus rightly and, and learning to grow in an expression
• 30:20
  of delight in what they're seeing.
• 30:22
  I think anointing is more important than gifting.
• 30:28
  I would kind of tease those two apart.
• 30:30
  I've been in rooms where guys are super gifted but not necessarily anointed
• 30:35
  and it's been great, but I've been in a room where a guy's okay, but anointed.
• 30:41
  And man, give me that every time that, that guy that just has
• 30:45
  some, some aroma of Christ on him.
• 30:49
  And I want to be around
• 30:50
  Is that
• 30:51
  those are some of the things.
• 30:52
  is that how you would define anointing?
• 30:54
  Like is that like closeness with the lord and that like you can sense
• 31:00
  I, I think so.
• 31:02
  I think there's that.
• 31:04
  And then there's the outworking of that, that that man or woman has an intimacy
• 31:11
  with Jesus that then begins to I don't know the right word ooze out of them in,
• 31:18
  in speech and leadership and singing.
• 31:22
  and you mentioned singing in your book a lot like talk about cuz I
• 31:28
  think it's just sort of understood in our church culture that we come to
• 31:31
  church and we sing, but do we really understand like the value of singing?
• 31:38
  Like singing is not just for the creatives.
• 31:42
  It's not just for the good singers.
• 31:45
  Just talk about the value of, of singing in the life of, of a believer.
• 31:51
  Yeah.
• 31:52
  Well singing for the people of God had been one of the defining characteristics
• 31:58
  of what makes us a unique people.
• 32:01
  And, and I say in the book, you see this in revelation in multiple places
• 32:06
  that nothing shows the enemy as weak and pedantic his schemes quite like
• 32:13
  the people of God singing in his face.
• 32:16
  What do the people of God do when tragedy strikes?
• 32:20
  We sing.
• 32:21
  What do we do at funerals?
• 32:23
  We sing.
• 32:24
  What do we do when loved ones are dying of cancer and they're right
• 32:30
  near the end of their day, man, we gather around their beds and we sing.
• 32:35
  What do we do when tragedy strikes?
• 32:36
  We sing.
• 32:38
  And so this is that, and I mean, this is like a whole chapter.
• 32:42
  You see the four horsemen of the apocalypse riding as
• 32:45
  the seals are being opened.
• 32:48
  And then in that chapter, chapter six, you not only have the four horsemen
• 32:51
  of the apocalypse, but then you've got some religious persecution there.
• 32:54
  And, and then on top of that, some natural calamities.
• 32:57
  And, and then this voice from the throne room goes out and says, and in
• 33:01
  light of these things, who can stand?
• 33:04
  And then the very next section of Revelation 7 is the people
• 33:09
  of God across time and space worshiping King Jesus with song.
• 33:14
  And, and I love this because it's like, what's the answer to the
• 33:18
  question, in light of the brokenness of the world, who can stand?
• 33:22
  Well, he says in chapter 6, not the kings, not the famous people, not the powerful
• 33:28
  ones, not the educated ones, not the slave or the free, not the man or the woman,
• 33:34
  But the answer to the question, who can stand, it's that group of men and women
• 33:39
  who see Christ enthroned and victorious and sovereignly reigning and ruling over
• 33:46
  every principality, power and governmental authority in this present darkness.
• 33:52
  And when we see Christ enthroned and victorious, We're able to sing in
• 33:58
  the face of the schemes of the enemy that reveal how weak and pedantic
• 34:02
  he is, that, that he has no victory over us, that when sickness comes, we
• 34:08
  sing, when hardship comes, we sing.
• 34:10
  And I highlighted one of my favorite kind of more modern
• 34:13
  historical phenomenons around this.
• 34:16
  was the Negro spirituals that were written during chattel slavery.
• 34:20
  I mean, you want to talk about a horrific institution that was dehumanizing
• 34:26
  and crushing the souls of people except it didn't crush their souls.
• 34:34
  They sang and they wrote songs of deliverance and they
• 34:37
  lifted their eyes to Jesus.
• 34:39
  And the one I think I quote in the book is like, I'm going to sing along the way.
• 34:44
  And then the lyrics basically are like, Hey, I'm just going to sing.
• 34:47
  I'm going to sing until Christ delivers us until we get safely home to shore.
• 34:51
  You're going to hear my voice singing to Jesus.
• 34:54
  So here, if we believe what the Bible says about principalities and
• 34:57
  powers, you've got these dark, evil forces working through kind of the
• 35:04
  mechanism of political power and the twistedness of men's conscience.
• 35:08
  And, and it's meant to destroy and dehumanize and, and desecrate the
• 35:14
  image of God made in our African American brothers and sisters.
• 35:18
  And upon all that evil slamming into those who knew and
• 35:23
  trusted Jesus, what'd they do?
• 35:26
  They sang and wrote hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of spiritual songs about
• 35:33
  how God would get them safely home.
• 35:35
  That's a, that's a really powerful modern picture of what's in play as
• 35:41
  you're reading through revelation six and seven and the power of
• 35:45
  worship wrought from attention given to Jesus's majesty and authority.
• 35:52
  Well, and I don't even know if you meant to do this, but you basically just sort
• 35:55
  of commissioned the songwriters, you know, go to not just write songs because you're
• 36:01
  talented or because it's fun or because you want to make a name for yourself, but
• 36:06
  to literally give voice to the people of God in this generation to, to praise him.
• 36:12
  That's, that's powerful.
• 36:15
  Do you guys have a process in place for determining what songs are good
• 36:23
  songs for the church to sing on Sunday?
• 36:25
  What does that look like?
• 36:28
  Yeah.
• 36:28
  That, that falls on me and Grant who is our worship pastor here at the village.
• 36:35
  So him and I are the ones that make the ultimate call on what
• 36:39
  songs we sing or don't sing.
• 36:41
  And every time we sing at the bottom of the screen are the scriptures that
• 36:47
  either that song is basing itself on.
• 36:50
  or being directly quoted
• 36:52
  Love that.
• 36:53
  And, and although I'm not necessarily a regulative principle guy I,
• 36:57
  I, I want to show people, Hey, we're singing the Bible here.
• 37:01
  We're getting this from the scriptures.
• 37:04
  And so that, that's kind of a, a thing we do, but it's, it's
• 37:08
  grant and I, we're entrusted by the elders to make that decision.
• 37:12
  Do you have any, any favorite worship songs that come to mind in recent days?
• 37:17
  Oh man, I'm still, I get stuck, man on certain, so King of kings
• 37:20
  is still one that I just wear
• 37:22
  Great one.
• 37:23
  I, I, I love that one.
• 37:24
  I've been man, I can't get away by Melissa Helser.
• 37:28
  If I'm saying that right.
• 37:30
  I don't know if you know Helser.
• 37:32
  Yeah, that, that song's bananas.
• 37:34
  All 11 minutes of it.
• 37:37
  She, her and Jonathan and Melissa Helser.
• 37:39
  They've been on the podcast before.
• 37:41
  They, they go
• 37:41
  Oh
• 37:42
  They go for it.
• 37:43
  Yeah.
• 37:44
  Yeah.
• 37:44
  There, there's, there's a song called Sails that I've really been
• 37:49
  loving by Pat Barrett and Stephanie.
• 37:52
  Yeah.
• 37:53
  That, that's been, yeah, that's been great.
• 37:56
  Those are some of the ones more recently I can go back to like some old school
• 38:00
  Clean live from Hillsong United.
• 38:03
  I mean, I, I'm all over the place on this.
• 38:05
  I don't, I don't want to go by Chris Renzema.
• 38:08
  is I've loved that song,
• 38:11
  listening right now.
• 38:11
  We're we're like adding these to our Spotify playlists, as you're saying.
• 38:15
  Jesus, you're beautiful.
• 38:17
  I mean, goodness, Jesus, you're beautiful by harvest to John Thurlow.
• 38:21
  I used to wear out all sons and daughters.
• 38:24
  I know they're not together anymore, but man, I, John Guerra,
• 38:28
  I can get caught up in some John
• 38:31
  I'm interviewing him next week actually looking forward to
• 38:33
  are you, he's That guy's ridiculously gifted.
• 38:38
  Yeah.
• 38:39
  Yeah.
• 38:40
  Yeah, I love
• 38:40
  those are some of like my personal, I'm, I'm playing them in my car.
• 38:44
  I'm got them in the background and then man, I'll go back and get that Robbie Seay
• 38:47
  Psalms album and, and just enjoy that.
• 38:51
  And of course the Shane's have been friends for 25 years.
• 38:54
  And so I like all their stuff.
• 38:57
  Love what they're doing with worship initiative.
• 38:59
  Absolutely.
• 39:00
  Yeah, I love in the book you, you kind of hearkened back to,
• 39:04
  you know, the early nineties.
• 39:06
  I think I can't remember if it was a youth group that you were visiting or, you
• 39:10
  when I first started going to church.
• 39:12
  Yeah.
• 39:12
  And some of the, you know, I love you, Lord.
• 39:14
  And I got the joy, joy, joy down in my heart.
• 39:19
  Where?
• 39:20
  Yeah, that was it.
• 39:21
  That was what, that's exactly what I came
• 39:23
  Yeah.
• 39:24
  In fact, I, I don't think I tell this story in the book, but the guy that was
• 39:29
  kind of sharing the gospel with me and, you know, taking me to church with him,
• 39:33
  I had gone to see Run DMC Beastie Boys on a Friday night at the Houston summit.
• 39:39
  And the very next night he was taking me to see Michael W.
• 39:43
  Smith, DC talk.
• 39:45
  Ooh, that's a
• 39:46
  And so that, yeah, that, well, I didn't think it was at the
• 39:50
  What did you think when you were there?
• 39:52
  What did you think of that
• 39:53
  I thought it was, I literally, I thought it was campy.
• 39:55
  I thought it was kitschy.
• 39:57
  It seemed silly to me.
• 39:59
  And, and so, yeah, no one else thought that in that arena.
• 40:03
  I mean, those, those Christian kids were going nuts, but coming
• 40:08
  off of Run DMC Beastie Boys, which was, Unbelievably filthy.
• 40:13
  Like I wasn't a Christian and I was thinking, this is filthy.
• 40:16
  That you can imagine.
• 40:19
  Yeah.
• 40:19
  That, that looked kitschy to me.
• 40:21
  It looked a little bit like a Saturday night live sketch.
• 40:24
  Yeah, for sure.
• 40:25
  Matt, this has been so, so fun to chat.
• 40:29
  Thanks for your generosity and just giving your time to us today.
• 40:33
  I wonder if maybe we could close with this.
• 40:35
  Yeah.
• 40:36
  You know, the act of writing a book is, is not an easy thing to do.
• 40:40
  And, and some of our listeners, you know, are creative people, whether they have
• 40:45
  songs in them, or maybe we have some authors that feel like God's called them
• 40:51
  to write a book, but they haven't yet.
• 40:53
  What would you say to our listeners?
• 40:57
  That have something to say, want to write a book, want to do something
• 41:00
  creative like that, but are struggling with confidence and struggling
• 41:04
  with what do I, how do I start?
• 41:06
  That's
• 41:08
  I, the, my whole framework on life is I, I want to do what the Lord puts before me.
• 41:17
  And then not worry about the outcomes.
• 41:20
  And had I wrote this book and nobody wanted it and no publisher wanted it.
• 41:28
  And no, all I know is he was asking me to write it.
• 41:33
  And so I felt very confident that I need, I need to be writing as an outlet
• 41:38
  for how the Lord wants to work in me and how I think he's going to use me.
• 41:43
  But I, in preaching, in leadership, in risk taking, I always
• 41:49
  stay away from the outcomes.
• 41:51
  Because if they're really good, then I'm going to get a little cocky.
• 41:55
  And if they're really bad, I'm going to struggle in my insecurities.
• 42:01
  But if I can just say, I'm going to write this because I feel
• 42:04
  like the Lord is with me in it.
• 42:07
  Then I'm going to write it and I'm not going to write it for you or
• 42:09
  for, I'm writing it not for me.
• 42:12
  I'm writing it because I feel like the Lord's asked me to write it.
• 42:15
  And then maybe it'll just be something that the Lord wanted to do in me through
• 42:19
  the process and not any bigger than that.
• 42:22
  Or maybe it'll end up being a bestseller.
• 42:26
  Maybe you're writing that song because the Lord wants to minister to you in
• 42:29
  the process, or maybe he wants to use it, but none of that is up to you.
• 42:34
  There's only obedience to what you're being asked to do and, and to, I
• 42:42
  think there are times there can be kind of, especially with creatives,
• 42:46
  there can be a false humility of, I don't want this to be about me.
• 42:51
  as an excuse to not take the risk of doing what the Lord's asking you to do.
• 42:56
  And, and so in a weird way, you make it about you when it wouldn't have been about
• 43:01
  you to begin with, if you were just trying to do what the Lord's asking you to do.
• 43:05
  And so there's a freedom that comes in, in any creative process when the,
• 43:13
  the art that you're creating, whatever it is that your end goal is to be
• 43:19
  obedient to what the Lord's put in your heart, not necessarily the outcome of
• 43:24
  the thing you're creating, trusting that something's happening in you.
• 43:30
  while you're creating.
• 43:32
  And if you're creative, I think the pathways of sanctification
• 43:35
  probably float through that process.
• 43:38
  And so to refuse to write because you're afraid of how it'd be received or because
• 43:42
  you feel like you have to be perfect or you, you name all the reasons we stop
• 43:48
  with the creative process is really to short circuit your own sanctification.
• 43:53
  To short circuit the work of the spirit in you through the process of creativity
• 43:59
  that, that he so uniquely put in you.
• 44:03
  that was worth the price of the podcast right there, Matt.
• 44:07
  was
• 44:07
  What, what is the price of the podcast?
• 44:09
  totally free
• 44:10
  man, praise
• 44:11
  Thank you so much for your time.
• 44:12
  And the book is the overcomers.
• 44:14
  I guess people can pick this up anywhere, right, Matt?
• 44:18
  Like Amazon, Barnes and Noble.
• 44:22
  Yep.
• 44:22
  I'm praying that it will bless you in ways that surprise you and expecting it to.
• 44:28
  And so like you were made for this day and this day was made for you.
• 44:31
  I just believe it.
• 44:32
  And what would it look like for us all to live into that?
• 44:35
  It'd be incredible.
• 44:35
  Amen.
• 44:37
  Matt Chandler.
• 44:38
  Thank you so much.
• 44:39
  I appreciate you.
• 44:41
  Oh man, it was my pleasure to be on with you, brother.
• 44:43
  Be good.
• 44:44
  Have a good one.
• 44:45
  Take care.
• 44:45
  Yep.
• 44:46
  Bye bye.