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Joshua Fletcher: Why Fighting Panic Makes Anxiety Worse · The BEYOND Podcast

0:00
Unknown: Heart pounding, chest tight, sweaty palms mind racing, Can't
0:14
breathe but you can't explain why.
0:19
Here's a great skill. Let me show you a super fast
0:21
There's a secret point. Anxiety.
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Josh knows that feeling. He's lived it, studied it, and
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now helps millions like you and I to understand what's really
0:41
going on inside our minds when we feel anxious and how to
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really manage it. Oh, this worked for a bit, but
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now it's back. And then this worked for a bit
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and now it's back. So yeah, because we still fear
0:55
that response. We still fear the thoughts.
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You have to teach the brain and the body that anxiety, albeit
1:00
uncomfortable, is actually OK to.
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Get my head around bed. I will represent all of the
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anxious people of today, OK? I'm going to let all the
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audience's anxiety come to me, and I will be the vessel to find
1:25
out how we deal with this ginormous thing, anxiety before
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I do so. Your long name is very nice,
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Joshua, right? But you also called anxiety Josh
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or just Josh. What do you prefer?
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My name's Josh. My on my birth certificate is
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Joshua. Joshua.
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Or if it's on the book I've written, it's Joshua.
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Sounds better. Or if you're my mum.
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Yeah, I was going to say we get told off Joshua.
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Yeah, that's. About it, yeah, yeah.
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And then? Yeah.
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Yeah, and I go off by anxiety Josh on on socials and stuff.
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It's such a good name, Anxiety Josh.
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I love that. Yeah, we kind of kind of, you
2:07
know, infers that I'm anxious all the time and it's not, it's
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not true. It's.
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Implies so you've got such a calm, wonderful energy about
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you. But yes, your anxiety healing,
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Josh. That's how we'll we'll refer to
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you in this podcast. You're also a psychotherapist,
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so you come qualified to speak on anxiety.
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Let's let's just put this declaration into the pod so
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people get it. Yeah, it's my field that I, my
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niche of psychotherapy that I specialized in, particularly the
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world full of misinformation and nonsense online and, you know,
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self optimization, quick hacks, all these kind of things.
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Yeah. I like to bring, you know,
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science empirically backed. Yeah, advice for people who
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struggle with anxiety. Yes.
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And for this podcast I will not bring anyone to speak on a
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subject unless they are fully qualified, trained and expert in
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that subject because I can't stand the noise and people
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pretending. And it's so dangerous as well
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when you have all these people and they sound so commanding
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when they advising you, but actually they have no background
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in that, no training 0. Just speak.
3:22
Well, yeah. And there's always something to
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sell at the end of it as well, you know, commodifying people's
3:26
vulnerabilities. It's.
3:27
Really scary. Yeah, yeah, it's it's very
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frustrating. You just got to be very careful
3:32
with what you get. You're also a recognized
3:34
authority, so you're a Ted X speaker.
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You're a best selling author. You do your own pods and things
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you'd guessed in other people's pods.
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So you're pretty, you know, you put yourself out there and you
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speak on the subject a lot, so it's fabulous.
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Yeah, yeah, I'd like to pontificate about it from time
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to time. Yeah, no, it's really lovely.
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Lovely to hear you and you are as you are the trusted voice in
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mental health. You know, you are someone with
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your qualifications that we can now listen to and ask.
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I'm going to come to you from the point of view of the public
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and we'll get some genuinely good answers from you.
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OK, on the topic of. That's high hopes getting
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genuinely good answers from me. We're going to get genuinely
4:19
good answers from you. We're going to get genuinely.
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So let's OK, so I did watch your TE DX talk as well.
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So I know a little bit more about you, let's say, but but
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for those who don't know, can you tell us like your anxiety
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journey, because you've got a personal anxiety journey.
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So can just for people to understand, we'll put it into
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context how it came about that you suffered with anxiety and
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then you've gone into working to help people and you do help
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people with anxiety. Yeah.
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So when in my young 20s, I found the difference out between what
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is conventional anxiety and an anxiety disorder.
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I think we all get anxiety. It's a normal, healthy human
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emotion and function within us. But yeah, in my young 20s, I
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experienced something called dissociation and panic.
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And it was after prolonged stress and that that kind of
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made me become agoraphobic. So I couldn't leave the house.
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I was obsessed with how I felt something intrusive thoughts.
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I was having panic attack after panic attack after panic attack,
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and I was scared of how I felt. And that's what initially, you
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know, the first step on the path to being a therapist was that,
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wow, this is actually really scary.
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A lot of people say, you know, oh, I don't get anxiety or I
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know what anxiety is like or whatever.
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But you know you've got an anxiety disorder when almost
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every day is consumed by worry, weird symptoms and an obsession
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with how you feel, and it's really debilitating.
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Yeah. So I was going to ask you how
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well, how did you know you were having like a panic attack
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moment? How did you know that that is a
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panic attack? I didn't at the time.
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That's what made it scary. You know, you think a panic
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attack is something that you see on Netflix or something.
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Yeah. Like someone, like,
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hyperventilating. And then you'd think it'd be
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obvious, but it's not. The the whole point of a panic
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attack is to make you doubt that you know your safety and
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something bad's going to happen. So most people who have panic
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attacks will fall for the what ifs of what if I'm dying, What
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if I have a heart attack? What if I lose control?
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What if I humiliate myself? What if I collapse stuff,
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something like that. Because your brain's firing off
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the threat response 10 out of 10.
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But it's usually in a situation that doesn't merit that level of
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anxiety. And So what happens is the
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cognitive brain just starts to give suggestions as to where the
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danger might be. But if you're in the supermarket
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or out for dinner and you're having that, we know that's not
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dangerous. So it goes inwards.
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And panic attacks are very much like, well, maybe something
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really bad's going to happen to you.
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And then that can go with so many symptoms.
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So is it like, so is it like you're having, you feel like
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you're having a heart attack or something or like what, what's
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physically happening to your body?
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It's different for everyone. The main symptoms of a panic
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attack are yes, your heart can race, but not all the time.
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An intense feeling to escape or something awful is going to
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happen. Dissociation so you suddenly
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don't feel like in the room and objects look weird and you're
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you don't feel like you're in your body.
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Difficulty catching your breath, air, hunger, sweating, stomachs
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going, nausea, Lightheadedness. That's a lot of them.
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And then racing thoughts like intense racing.
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Can I ask you a question? When I was a kid and I had to do
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AI, had to write in maths, this was like for in in South Africa
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matric finals, I had to write a maths exam and I hated maths.
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I still hate maths, really hate maths.
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And I was sitting there and I was dreading it so much and then
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when I looked on the page I could no longer see the shapes
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in that geometry exam. Was that a panic attack?
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That's high anxiety. Yeah, it just became.
8:18
Yeah, that's high anxiety, Yeah, because our fight or flight
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response is designed to focus for predators.
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And so it's very common for our focus to be out.
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So your threat responses confused usually with your
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imagination or whatnot, and then you look down at the paper and
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you know it's out of focus take. A moment.
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Yeah, before I was able to. It could be panic, it could be
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or just high anxiety. High anxiety, I mean, that's the
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thing like how do you know which is my next question.
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What is the actual difference between everyday anxiety and an
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anxiety disorder like and what like what's the definition of a
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disorder? Does it mean that you can't
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function properly in the in the daily life or with that
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distinction? You know it's an anxiety
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disorder when it does start to consume your life and you can't
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do what non anxious you would like to do or you feel.
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Like you can't what non anxious you would like to do?
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Yeah, so you would avoid. You don't feel like your usual
9:18
self. You are ruminating on worries.
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You think that something's really wrong with you.
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You've been bombarded with intrusive thoughts.
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You're not getting joy out of things and that consumes you.
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Whereas it's also cyclical and feels interminable, whereas
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everyone gets anxiety. And because usually as an end
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result, I'm worried about my exam, I'm worried about the
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dentist, I'm worried about date. But when that's done, the
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anxiety switches off. An anxiety disorder is like an
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endless loop because it doesn't have a resolution.
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But but, Josh, what if you're born anxious?
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Everyone's born anxious. Everyone has everyone.
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Everyone. Yeah, of course it is.
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You know, born anxious even though this dude in South
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Africa, my dad grew up in South Africa.
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Everyone has, everyone has anxiety.
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Yeah, it's. True, right?
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Literally everyone. Everyone's got anxiety.
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Let's be perfectly clear about this.
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Because it's your threat response.
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Everyone has a threat response. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Some people react in fight response.
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Some people react in flight, some people freeze, and some
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people people please inform. But we all have a threat
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response, so we all have anxiety.
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Oh my gosh, I love that. That's so liberating, that is.
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And when someone says. The best thing I've ever heard.
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When someone says I don't get anxiety, the lying is
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physiologically impossible. That is freeing.
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Yeah. Never imagined that before.
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They might not struggle with it all the time, but there'll be
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times in their life where they're anxious, yeah, you know,
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but over something, you know, public speaking, the birth of
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the child, you know, an upcoming job interview, surgery,
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whatever. They'll be anxious in some way.
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Just for some people it's not as prominent and it's more socially
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acceptable. Not as prominent And some people
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admit to it and some people won't or some people don't mind
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saying, look, anxiety is a part of my identity and some people
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will be like, well, I don't get anxious.
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But but all of us, is what you're saying.
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All of us get anxious. To varying levels, yeah.
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That I love that so much. OK and on that, is it one in
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five that developed the actual disorder version?
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So the version where it's now really throwing things off.
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Yeah, one in five of us. I mean, that's as a result of,
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like a big meta study in America where, yeah, one in five adults
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will at some point in their life experience chronic debilitating
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anxiety that falls under an anxiety disorder bracket.
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So that could be panic disorder. The most commonly diagnosed 1 is
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generalized anxiety. Then you've got things.
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What is generalized anxiety is just it's.
12:00
Just when you find yourself anxious a lot of the day, often
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for no identifiable reason, then you've got OCD, which I
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specialize in, and and social anxiety.
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There's things like that. There's loads and since COVID a
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lot of people have health anxiety as well, which yeah,
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I've. Been I've been guilty of health
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anxiety. OK stress jug.
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Can you explain what is this whole stress jug thing?
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The stress jug is is an analogy that I pinched.
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It's not original, but I use it to explain how excessive stress
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then can create disorder and anxiety.
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OK, so everything goes in our stress jug.
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So, you know, it could be daily things, work, parenting, you
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know, just maintaining a house, relationships, whatever that
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goes in the jug. Then there's things that have
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probably been in there for a while.
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You know, maybe you're grieving, maybe you've gone through
12:57
something horrible, maybe you've got unprocessed trauma, and then
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you've got other things like things happening in the world,
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day to news, day-to-day stress. And when that fills it up, the
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threat response, which is one of the oldest parts of our brain,
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involves the amygdala in our brain.
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I believe that it's misinterprets all of the stress
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because it doesn't get it. It's older than our thinking
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brain. It can just see that we're
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stressed. So it steps in to try and help,
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but all it can do is release adrenaline and cortisol and most
13:33
things because it thinks there's a threat.
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So it's. Pumping.
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It's literally pumping you with. With yeah, and and it's the
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last. Thing called hormones.
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It's the last thing you need as well.
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Yeah, it's making you wired and like hyper and freaking out and
13:47
all that sort of thing. Yeah, and and if you're someone
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who's like, you know, proud or ashamed or doesn't want to have
13:52
any, you know, I keep a distance from mental health narratives
13:55
that is particularly troublesome people like that.
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And I, I just tried to keep things simple, like, and this is
14:02
like, OK, let's see what this means maybe.
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And I'll say to clients what's been happening in in your life
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recently, Let's see the stress jug.
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And then almost every time that's like really full, it's
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overflowing. Yeah.
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Yeah. Because often people say, oh,
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panic attacks come from nowhere and.
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Do they? I they, they feel like they do,
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but when you look back and look at the stress jugular, actually
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this was coming. OK.
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Can I just ask you about a particular panic attack or like
14:28
a feeling of really like on the Tube?
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For example, if the Tube train Underground, London Underground,
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for anyone who's been on it, it's really scary when that
14:37
underground stops between stations and then you've got all
14:39
these people and it's really hot and it's like, you know, and
14:43
then you're in there for some time and then no one say
14:45
anything and then you feel a sense of panic.
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I mean, I don't know how many people have experienced this,
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but not many people are going to say they don't mind being stuck
14:53
underground for an unlimited amount of time in a packed.
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No. It's.
14:58
It's very common, yeah, very common.
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I, I don't like that feeling either, particularly if you're
15:03
sensitive to being quite to claustrophobia and things like
15:08
that. Feeling trapped.
15:08
I hate feeling trapped. It's horrible.
15:10
Yeah. And some people will deal with
15:12
it fine because they've probably been trapped in the tube several
15:15
times, you know, and delayed in the tube rather than trapped.
15:18
But yeah, that's a feeling that that often feels like, you know,
15:22
the beginning of a panic sometimes, you know?
15:23
I'm just wondering if that's normal.
15:26
It's really normal, Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
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Like loads of people in that that's.
15:33
The thing they do, don't they? But we mask and things, don't
15:36
we? Because I don't want to see
15:37
that. So people bury themselves in
15:38
their phone or whatever and. Oh, I hope you sort of.
15:40
I'll bring up the phone to look at cute pictures of cats, dogs.
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Yeah, but loads of other people are doing that too.
15:47
Because it's horrible, because you just don't know.
15:49
It's the, it's the unknown. That's the, the thing you
15:53
mention the amygdala, amygdala. Can you just explain the
15:59
amygdala properly? Because it, it's just like, I
16:02
want to go into the science. So we, we know that there's the
16:05
hormones and they're released and we're still talking about
16:07
this. But like, I feel it's, it's nice
16:10
to know the the mechanics of what your body is doing because
16:14
then it doesn't feel like such a it demystifies this whole stress
16:17
thing. It's a real thing and it's.
16:20
Well, I keep it simple. Obviously if you really, you
16:22
know, if if you sat down with a neuroscientist and they were
16:25
like, well, actually there's 10 parts involved, but I keep it in
16:28
a simple way. Are they really?
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Yeah, the thalamus and things like that.
16:32
But like, do you know, I just, I just keep it simple.
16:34
So the amygdala is part of the fear center of our of our
16:39
brains. It's from the oldest parts of
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our brains that's responsible for threat.
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Is it like your primitive brain? People talk about a primitive
16:47
brain the most, Yeah. It's one of the oldest parts,
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and it's part of how we evolved to be top of the food chain
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because anxiety is actually what makes us good predators.
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You'd think what? How does that make sense?
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But but well, when we have doubt, think of our ancestors.
17:06
Their amygdala was firing off when you know, walking across
17:10
the Serengeti or through the jungle or whatever and or across
17:15
the desert, whatever, if there are amygdala fires or if it
17:18
creates doubt. And then what do you do when you
17:20
doubt? You start to look for danger.
17:23
So our ancestors really helpful to look for danger and
17:26
anticipate danger before it happens because we're human.
17:30
We're not going to fight lions are not going to fight a bear
17:32
hand to hand. I mean, I might feel an odd, but
17:35
in general, no. But the evolutionary advantage
17:39
to be able to spot a threat before it spots youth and sneak
17:43
around it and then use your brain and then you could hunt
17:45
it, you know, even though you're not stronger than that, you're
17:47
smarter than it. The amygdala is part of that and
17:50
you can make sense. So anxiety is part of the reason
17:53
why we're here. It's not just a bad thing.
17:57
And the amygdala still, it hasn't ever evolved.
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So it just feels weird when you sat at your desk or chilling
18:03
with your family or whatnot and it's firing off.
18:06
It's the very same mechanism, but because of social pressures
18:09
and things like that, it just feels a bit odd having that.
18:13
Yeah, yeah, that. It's doing.
18:15
Things that we know aren't directly dangerous, but then
18:19
they are if we read the news articles, because it could be, I
18:22
mean, this could it's like that, that perceived danger because it
18:25
might be dangerous. You know, there's all these
18:26
head. I mean, I was reading the news
18:29
this morning and it's like, honestly, yeah, I want to
18:33
quickly run and protect it. Don't do that.
18:34
Don't do that. Don't shoot down that thing.
18:36
Don't put spy ships out. Don't, you know, don't, don't
18:39
kill people. Don't.
18:40
Well, it takes in information that you take and then and to
18:43
help it wire for threat. You know, whether it's the news
18:47
or wherever, you know that's what it is and that's what
18:50
conditions are threat response. OK, so our ancestors wouldn't
18:53
have to then go home and deal with the articles and then this
18:57
and that and then go on social media and then they get
18:59
overwhelmed. They would have that thing and
19:01
it would the the jug that you're talking about would be, you
19:04
know, filled only that much versus starting to.
19:07
Well, yeah, kind of. I mean, it wasn't easy to live
19:10
back then, like a hunter gathering and, you know, finding
19:15
shelter for the winter and things like that and, you know,
19:18
no medicine or things like that. But in general, yeah.
19:22
Like it's we have so much information overload now.
19:27
The brain's processing a lot of information is stressful, you
19:31
know, don't be surprised if that makes you anxious or you can't
19:33
sleep at night because you've just been bombarded, sensitive.
19:36
Yeah. Your brain is filing away all
19:38
these, you know, all this information.
19:41
And that takes a lot of energy and, and creates stress.
19:44
Yeah. Yeah, so you, so you're going
19:46
through the day and then maybe for weeks and months and then
19:49
you get into bed and then and then you sleep and then like
19:55
whatever, 2 AM, 3:00 AM, you wake up because your mind is
19:59
like. Think, Think.
20:01
Thinking. Thinking, Thinking, thinking,
20:02
Thinking about the day. What's that?
20:06
If you are focusing on what the mind is thinking, thinking,
20:09
thinking, that's called ruminating.
20:12
Ruminating. Yeah, when you sit there and
20:14
your thoughts are just on loop and you just.
20:16
If it's waking you up, you should be sleeping.
20:20
Yeah, but attention is always part.
20:22
This is what I do as a therapist as well.
20:24
Attention is always part of our, you know, we have agency in that
20:27
tension. You know, we all have what if
20:30
thoughts, but we also have the ability to channel our
20:33
attention. But a lot of people just believe
20:37
their thoughts at face value. What if that happens?
20:40
Oh yeah, that's true. I'm going to just focus on that
20:42
thought now and try and work it out.
20:44
That's called ruminating because you're engaging with the
20:47
thought. We have like 5000 different
20:49
thoughts a day. Why are you giving yourself all
20:52
the attention to that one? You know, and then you're
20:54
teaching the brain and the threat response to that thought
20:56
is one, probable and two, potentially dangerous.
21:02
And that's what I often do with my clients.
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Why? Why not focus on something else?
21:07
You know, it's difficult when you're anxious because it's
21:09
convincing and, and you feel doubtful.
21:11
But actually, you know, with all the different thoughts that we
21:14
have, we still have agency in the ability to control our
21:19
attention. Yeah, because there's other
21:21
things that you can focus on, which is which is definitely
21:24
possible. You can shift focus that that's
21:26
especially if you've been dragged in a direction.
21:28
But the mere the concept of waking up because of thoughts
21:34
and then being awake with the thoughts and then having, it's
21:39
almost like, like it it's, you know, wakes you up quite
21:43
intensely and then you have to sort of wait for the thoughts to
21:46
sort of calm down and then you sleep.
21:47
Yeah. So is that an anxiety?
21:50
Could be, yeah. When we all have bad dreams, we
21:52
all have nightmares. It wakes you up.
21:54
Depends on your relationship with that.
21:55
Sometimes you just, you just do. You can't stop thoughts.
21:59
But you can also also show the brain that the thoughts are not
22:02
important and then wind back down again.
22:05
Yeah. Yeah, I've had actually some
22:06
some good things where if the thoughts do wake me up, it's
22:10
things that I've forgotten during the day and then I'll get
22:13
work and I'll be like, oh, I didn't send the e-mail to that
22:15
person. And it's it came to me 2:00 AM,
22:19
It's like, yeah. It's classic, isn't it?
22:21
It's. Annoying though because you're
22:22
trying to sleep and it's dangerous if you don't sleep.
22:24
Yeah, but also, if you're a hard worker and a perfectionist,
22:27
you'll be in 5th gear all day and you don't teach the brain
22:30
and body, it's OK to shift down the gears.
22:33
So if you're in 5th gear from 7:00 AM to 7:00 PM, don't
22:37
suddenly expect your body to go into first gear when it's it's
22:40
been rusty all day. If you're someone who's
22:42
constantly go, go, go, go, go, go, go, graft, graft, graft,
22:45
graft, graft, you'll be in 5th gear, you're more likely to burn
22:49
out. You'll be in constant threat
22:51
mode because the stress drug's full and ironically, you won't
22:54
be as productive. You're chasing the illusion of
22:57
productivity. Whereas if you work smart, look
22:59
after yourself, take breaks, do properly ease the nervous
23:02
system, the irony is you actually get more done.
23:07
Yeah, it's the it's the hardcore truth.
23:11
It's the hardcore truth. I I definitely have more respect
23:16
for the whole concept, the mental health stress.
23:22
I used to be very, very dismissive actually of it.
23:26
Oh, come on, you know, I used to be.
23:29
I'm not anymore because I've learned the hard.
23:32
Way it's something I tried to challenge, you know, like I, you
23:34
know, I'm not I wouldn't say I was a soft lad.
23:37
You know, I grew up playing rugby and boxing and football
23:40
and things like that quite a lot, and I just think it's a
23:43
it's just an A it's just a an aged cliche to just dismiss
23:47
those things now. I think it's like the statistics
23:50
don't lie, like, you know, and and the evidence doesn't lie.
23:54
These things exist. And if your loved 1 was
23:59
struggling and here's you saying oh that's a load of nonsense all
24:02
day, how's that going to make your love one feel?
24:06
Yeah. And also if you in denial about
24:09
it, then your body will let you know, like your body will not
24:12
lie to you. It will make you aware that the
24:17
stress is a thing because like you were saying, the amygdala
24:20
and it's it this touches on all these areas in your body and
24:23
it's a whole network and these things start firing off and
24:27
there is a mega effect. It's like a storm and it's like
24:30
it's like a hurricane forming in the Atlantic.
24:32
It sort of starts as just of seemingly innocent, doesn't it?
24:35
A little bit of wind. It doesn't look too bad.
24:37
And then it's picks picks up momentum and then it starts
24:39
picking up all the clouds with it.
24:41
And by the time you know it, you sucked into this horrible thing
24:44
and, and your body will send you a message in the form of
24:48
whatever could be some other thing, but it will send you the
24:52
message to go. Yeah.
24:54
Often, Yeah, I mean, even my own anxiety disorder was a message
24:57
to say this. This isn't sustainable.
25:01
Yeah, it's not sustainable. You can't keep doing this.
25:04
Enough. Enough.
25:05
Yeah. So it shows up and it can show
25:07
up in different ways. I'm reading here like headaches
25:10
or something. People get manifest itself as
25:13
tension headaches. And so many physical symptoms of
25:17
anxiety, headaches, migraines, jaw tension, muscle twitches,
25:23
face twitches. You ever had an eyelid twitch?
25:25
Yeah. Yeah, those scalp band tightness
25:28
on the scalp, neck ache, shoulders really hurt, chest
25:32
pain, chest tightness, chest stretching, heart palpitations,
25:37
skipped heart beats, your digestions off, diarrhea,
25:42
Constipation, feeling nauseous, hair loss.
25:45
I'm not sure. I'm not sure about the evidence
25:46
of hair loss. Maybe if you've got a
25:49
pre-existing condition. Yeah.
25:52
Pains, aches, pains, attention. Honestly, it's just the list is
25:56
endless. Eye floaters, Tinnitus.
25:59
I had those. There's so many stress from
26:02
anxiety and anxiety. Yeah.
26:04
The loop. Yeah.
26:05
OK, fixing compulsions. What are fixing compulsions?
26:12
So people who are chronically anxious, you know, and they're
26:16
people that are like fixing things.
26:20
It's a good trait to have. When you see a problem, you want
26:22
to fix it. And we're humans, we do want to
26:24
fix it. But when you see having anxiety
26:27
as something to fix, you just end up irritating something that
26:31
needs to be left alone. And that's why we're constantly
26:36
obsessed, particularly in the Wellness sphere.
26:37
You know, 5 things you can do to get rid of a feeling.
26:42
And these can be fixing compulsion.
26:43
So I'll do this, I'll do deep breathing in the morning.
26:46
I will do this. I will ice bath, I will do all
26:51
these things. And it's fair.
26:52
If you like the benefits of that, that's OK.
26:55
But if you're doing that to get rid of anxiety, it's
26:58
counterproductive because you're teaching the brain, the
27:00
amygdala, that anxiety is still a threat.
27:02
You are literally fighting an emotion.
27:05
As a therapist, I often propagate the use of allowing
27:10
the emotion to teach the amygdala that anxiety is not
27:12
dangerous. Yes, uncomfortable.
27:14
You know, I've ended up in hospital with panic attacks.
27:17
I know how uncomfortable it feels, but you've got to
27:23
understand what you're actually doing with the brain and what
27:25
you're teaching the brain there. And social media and the
27:28
wellnessphere and podcasts and all this stuff are just
27:30
bombarded with here's 50 things you can do to get rid of a
27:35
feeling. And I, I play the long game.
27:38
And that's a like, yeah. And, and of all those 50 which
27:43
worked, you know? Oh, interesting.
27:46
Yeah. And then, you know, you're still
27:47
here. Oh, this worked for a bit, but
27:50
now it's back. And then this worked for a bit,
27:52
and now it's back. It's like, yeah, because we
27:54
still fear that response. We still fear the thoughts.
27:57
You have to teach the brain and the body that anxiety, albeit
28:00
uncomfortable, is actually OK to.
28:05
Get my head around that. I literally I'm a fixer.
28:08
OK, so you're speaking to a fixer.
28:10
Anxiety is actually OK and it's normal and it's common.
28:16
And what you're saying is you've got to teach yourself to be, you
28:21
can't be batting it away, trying to breathe your way through it
28:25
and all that kind of thing. Just actually get used to it
28:28
and, and and is it? Don't pay too much attention to
28:31
it because you're making a grow by giving it.
28:33
Yeah, you're giving it more important now, don't get me
28:35
wrong. Those things for stress, like if
28:37
I feel stressed, I will definitely breathe, breathe
28:41
mindfulness, things like that. OK, OK, good.
28:43
Definitely for stress. Oh absolutely.
28:46
I had a hot bath last night. It was really nice.
28:47
I'm stressed. OK.
28:50
But when you're anxious and you want to get rid of anxiety,
28:53
anxiety and you're scared, and particularly if you've got an
28:56
anxiety disorder, which a lot of people do, it's what are you
29:00
teaching the brain and teaching yourself that when you're
29:04
anxious, you need to fix it? What's that actually saying?
29:06
What's what's that saying to the brain?
29:08
Yeah, you're confirming. That you're broken.
29:11
Wow. It's like you're not.
29:13
It's like you're sending this feedback loop that I'm anxious I
29:17
must fix it. So that implies that you're
29:19
broken and and then people wonder why they end up in the
29:22
loop. Gosh, that is a different way of
29:25
thinking about it. It's almost like the correct way
29:28
of thinking about it. Yeah, it's like the correct way,
29:31
but it's like. It's something I had to get my
29:33
head around. That's why I became a therapist,
29:34
because I did all the wrong things.
29:36
And then I was like, oh, I get it now.
29:38
I get it. You got to wow that.
29:41
That makes sense why it's always been around for so long.
29:44
I mean, I've just feel it's massively empowering.
29:46
The very first thing you said about how basically everyone has
29:49
this anxiety within them is already that that helps to say,
29:55
OK, well then that's normal. That means you're not broken
29:58
because everyone has it so. Yeah, does.
30:01
It's not like an afflict, don't get me wrong, you can get you
30:03
down. It's not an affliction.
30:05
But like relating to what you said about fixing compulsions,
30:09
it's like I often get clients who sit opposite me in my
30:13
practice and I'm having a panic. What do I do?
30:15
And I'll be like nothing, it's not hurting you.
30:19
It will pass. True.
30:20
Yeah. When, when you don't do anything
30:23
during a panic attack, what gets the credit?
30:27
Now, a lot of people when there's high anxiety, they'll do
30:29
something or do a technique or they'll grab something magic
30:34
and, and soothe or whatever. And that's fine.
30:37
You know, there's no perfect way of doing things.
30:39
But real progress with anxiety and anxiety disorders occur when
30:44
you get the credit for anxiety passing because you then realise
30:48
you're the coping technique. Oh.
30:49
I love that. That's that's the cornerstone
30:52
of. You are the coping technique,
30:54
like you are the one. Yes, I love that.
30:57
Yeah. OK, OK, so we spoke of a few
31:00
things. Now the breathing thing.
31:02
I do like the breathing after. Yeah, breathing's great.
31:04
It's like just depends why you're doing it.
31:06
If you're breathing because you're stressed, great.
31:08
If you're breathing because like, oh, I'm panicking and I
31:10
don't like it, then you're teaching the brain something bad
31:14
that that feeling panicky is is wrong.
31:18
I think you know, for, for like we were talking earlier about
31:21
public speaking, something like that.
31:23
If I don't want, you know, before you go on a stage or
31:26
something like that, if you just do the few long deep breaths, it
31:29
just settles you in. So that just calm the heart, you
31:32
know, yes, we're excited, but let's not get too excited
31:35
because otherwise your voice gets, you know, that that kind
31:40
of thing. So sometimes I'll use it like
31:43
that as a little tool sometimes. Yeah.
31:47
Like an athlete takes, you know, concentrates on their breathing
31:50
before performance, things like that.
31:52
That's cool, Yeah. OK.
31:54
And you mentioned mindfulness, like what?
31:56
Again, this is another one I have to get my head around.
31:58
What? What is mindfulness like?
32:00
What on earth is this whole thing and is it relevant?
32:04
Mindfulness often gets misinterpreted.
32:07
People think mindfulness is something that you do to clear
32:11
your head and be calm. That's not mindfulness.
32:14
That can be the result of mindfulness sometimes, but
32:18
mindfulness is observing the present, both things around you
32:23
and your mind in the present. But the keywords are without
32:27
judgement. So why I like mindfulness when
32:31
done properly, is that you know, if you have intrusive thoughts
32:35
or you have an internal critic or whatnot, you're observing
32:40
your thoughts but without judgement.
32:42
And then the more you do that, the more you realize thoughts
32:46
are just thoughts. I just place more important on
32:49
some over over others, usually because thoughts are evocative.
32:55
But the more you practice mindfulness 1 is kind of
32:58
grounding. It brings you into the present.
33:00
So you're not just constantly in the future or ruminating about
33:03
the past. But it's a good practice to look
33:06
at things without judgement and see things what they are.
33:09
I often say it enhances metacognitive ability to observe
33:15
feelings, thoughts and emotions as transient things.
33:19
But because if the moment you get a thought and an emotion,
33:22
you just believe that at face value, you know, that's not
33:25
representative of reality. How many times have you
33:28
misinterpreted, I don't know, a friend or a loved one and
33:31
they've said something and you've gone, Oh my God.
33:33
But that actually got the wrong end of the stick.
33:35
That's you believing that thought and feeling straight
33:37
away. Mindfulness is, you know, is a
33:41
practice that, yeah, it helps you to stop, but also it's the
33:44
without judgement, observing things in the present for what
33:47
they are. And it helps you to stop anxiety
33:51
sometimes from snowballing because you're like, oh, I've
33:54
observed that. I don't like that thought.
33:56
OK. You see it as a thing.
33:58
You know, you're starting to remind me of a little bit.
34:01
If you don't mind me saying, there's this Buddhist that I
34:05
follow because he gives. I mean, I'm so not a meditation
34:08
kind of person because I find it difficult to meditate, like
34:13
really difficult. It's but he's quite nice the way
34:16
that he speaks and everything is quite relaxing.
34:18
So when I'm in the bath, for example, and I have to stay
34:21
there, then I will put his YouTube videos on and he will
34:26
take you through this process of like, Oh yes, constant, you
34:29
know, be comfortable. And then and then think about
34:32
like listen to the noises around you, you know, close listen to
34:34
those there an aeroplane and then suddenly stop paying
34:36
attention to those. And, and I think it's things
34:40
within your body as well. And he goes further out and
34:42
further out and further out and then brings you back in.
34:45
But when, when he's talking about not if those thoughts are
34:47
coming, the thought comes to you and then the thoughts like hello
34:50
thoughts. And then you like let it be.
34:52
And then it comes again and it's like, let it be.
34:55
And that's cool and everything. It's sort of worked about 3
34:57
minutes from me in the bath. And then the thoughts just kept
35:00
coming and I was like, OK, so that's like, let it be, let it
35:03
be. Let it be.
35:04
But that's still a good meditation.
35:07
You think? Yeah, you think.
35:08
And this is this is what? People misinterpret mindfulness
35:12
and meditation as a fixing compulsion.
35:14
Yes. Because they think that the goal
35:16
of it is to be. The best meditation I ever did
35:19
was to practice being with symptoms and feelings I didn't
35:23
like. And it was 30 minutes and I left
35:26
at the end of the meditation. I was sweaty and panicky and all
35:30
that because I'd done 30 minutes of doing what I always avoid.
35:35
And that's my feelings. Had my thoughts so you.
35:38
Sat in that space and you. That's a good meditation, Yeah.
35:42
Whereas people have the biggest misnomer about meditation as you
35:45
think that you should be sitting there.
35:46
Very calm. No, it's not.
35:48
That's not mindfulness. That's not meditation.
35:50
Meditation is you try to observe without judgement.
35:54
So I did 30 minutes of trying to observe without judgement.
35:56
Yeah, it does help. Well, it helps.
35:59
It was exposure for me, exposure to feelings I didn't like.
36:02
Now I can meditate and most of them might end up calm and
36:05
tranquil, but I'm willing to be with every emotion without
36:10
judgement. So you were judging it.
36:13
So you were judging the thoughts coming in and then, oh, this is
36:15
nice. Oh, no, they keep coming.
36:17
Oh, I'm not doing it right then. And then you've turned it into a
36:22
technique as opposed to what it actually is.
36:24
But what I still liked about it was that it made you see them as
36:27
thoughts. It all sounds like waves.
36:28
You say, oh, it's a thoughts, thoughts, thoughts, thoughts
36:30
coming. OK, let it be.
36:31
Let it be here. Now.
36:32
Whoop, another one. Here it comes.
36:34
It looks a bit different, but it's still.
36:35
But you kind of see them as things versus you.
36:39
Yeah. And they're not.
36:40
They're just, they're just a conveyor belt of stuff.
36:42
I love that. Just think about anything, you
36:45
know, you can't stop your thoughts either.
36:46
Like, you know, I don't think of Ronald McDonald and just be
36:49
dancing around in your head like you can't stop.
36:52
You can't stop your thoughts. No, you can't stop your
36:54
thoughts. Journaling.
36:55
What do you think about that? I like journaling.
36:58
I like self gratitude journaling.
37:00
A lot of people are harsh on themselves.
37:02
They cringe at giving themselves praise.
37:06
But we're very happy and it's very acceptable to criticize
37:09
yourself. Because that's the thing.
37:10
But. Why?
37:10
Why one and not the other? Like, and then you ask them, is
37:14
it OK to just constantly criticize someone else?
37:16
And they're like, no, I was like, well, why do you do it to
37:18
yourself? Are you more comfortable
37:20
criticizing or praising someone else?
37:23
And depending on who you are, you know, there's some harsh
37:26
people out there. But you know, it's yeah,
37:30
journaling's OK. It depends.
37:32
Yeah. It's a good way to get your
37:33
thoughts out, to put in order your, your day, reflect.
37:42
I think journaling's OK. Again, it depends what you're
37:44
doing. If you're journaling to get rid
37:45
of a feeling, No. If you're journaling to enhance
37:50
your own curiosity, I think that's great.
37:52
Yeah, I've had, I've spoken to many people who say they journal
37:56
and it's really good and I can see the benefits of that.
37:58
And I sort of thought I'm definitely going to do that.
38:01
Haven't done it, want to do it. But that night where I woke up
38:06
with the things and oh, I didn't do that, I didn't do that,
38:09
didn't do that. I thought the only way I'm able
38:11
to actually fall asleep again is if I get this down.
38:14
So I open Notepad, wrote down the things that I had to do that
38:18
my, my, I was not allowing myself to sleep until I had them
38:22
down, wrote them down, switched off the phone, and then I was
38:26
able to sleep because I thought at least I'll have an e-mail to
38:30
myself. I'll know about this.
38:31
It's going to be a it's. A good way to do it, isn't it?
38:34
Yes. You don't worry.
38:34
And trying to keep it here, it's exhausting.
38:36
Keeping things there. Yeah, that's exhausting.
38:39
Yeah. Nothing.
38:41
It's a good idea. That's not bad, is it?
38:43
But I was sort of being an anxious person.
38:45
But then the blue light, I'm not waking myself up.
38:48
The light's going to be in my. I mean, yeah, the blue light's
38:51
not great, but like, just who cares?
38:53
I've fallen asleep mid scroll before.
38:55
I just think that's a lot of scaremongering.
38:57
Like scaremongering. Are you going to sleep better
39:00
not staring into a screen for an hour for bed?
39:02
Probably, but you can still sleep.
39:05
Like who cares? Like just whatever, just do it.
39:09
I'm very I don't like how prescribed the Wellness sphere
39:13
can be. If if you're having a really
39:15
rubbish week and it's been traumatic and it's horrible and
39:20
naturally you're getting comfort from just looking at dog reels.
39:23
Yeah, man, I'd rather the reels are great.
39:25
Exactly. I'd rather relax to that and
39:28
fall asleep to be then then forcing this prescribed routine
39:32
of Oh no, no, blue light and blah, blah, blah.
39:35
No, because that's just more doing just being just be like
39:39
I've done that before. I've had a rubbish day.
39:41
I don't care I fall asleep watching TVI don't care like
39:44
it's it's fine and I slept all who sleep fine.
39:47
Yes, there's an ideal of things, but when it becomes a doing then
39:51
you just add more pressure on yourself.
39:53
Yeah, I went to bed last night with a dog reel thing.
39:55
I there was a guy who, there's a guy who goes around and he
39:57
records encounters of owners with their dogs.
40:00
And there was one of this lovely old lady and she was with her
40:04
beautiful greyhound dog. Maybe it was a whippet?
40:06
Maybe a whippet actually smaller than Greyhound.
40:09
And the whippet was a bit shy and the lady was like, oh, no,
40:11
she's 14 years old and celebrity.
40:14
What an elegant whippet, you know, white with his long paws
40:16
and the lady also with her Gray white hair.
40:19
And the two of them are such a bit.
40:19
She was saying how they go there every day and have their little
40:22
moment and that her dog's going to die, you know, because it's a
40:24
14 year old dog and that she's going to miss her dog.
40:27
But but the man was, oh, can I take a photo?
40:28
And she was like, oh, you're such a lovely, kind man.
40:30
You know, you take a photo and you took these beautiful photos
40:34
of this lady and then her dog and then gave it to her.
40:36
It was just such a lovely moments.
40:38
That's what I went to bed looking at, you know?
40:39
Exactly. And that's so there, and that's
40:41
filling your brain with lots of happy things and relaxing things
40:45
as well. You can't go wrong with animals,
40:48
pets, and cute things, right? So exposure therapy.
40:52
So you've basically touched on that a little bit.
40:56
So you want to expose yourself to your emotion, to demystifying
41:01
it? To allowing, I do a lot of
41:03
exposure therapy with my clients.
41:06
If you want to rewire the back to the amygdala again, if you
41:09
want to rewire that threat response and anxiety, you can
41:12
only do that when it's activated, when you're when you
41:17
are anxious, yeah, you have to be anxious in order to rewire
41:22
that threat response. So exposure therapy is like, you
41:25
know, purposely inducing anxiety, but doing it in a way
41:30
where you get the credit at the end of it.
41:32
So I did exposure therapy on the London Underground many years
41:36
ago. I was far too terrified, having
41:39
panic attacks, stuff like that. So exposure therapy is no, this
41:43
is the homework. Go and practice being anxious on
41:45
the Tube. Oh, but what if I get anxious?
41:48
Yeah, that's that's the whole point.
41:51
And then when I don't leave and when I stay there, the body
41:56
releases, it's caught, It's adrenaline, it's cortisol.
41:59
And then the brain rewires, the amygdala rewires when it when it
42:02
sees that nothing bad happens. And that's exposure.
42:06
Wow. Yeah, Yeah.
42:07
And you can apply that to many things, whether it's panic
42:11
attacks, you know, I do it with intrusive thoughts sometimes,
42:14
you know, just let the thought be there and don't react to it.
42:16
What? Just be with the feeling.
42:18
And it's really, really intense. But it's very effective.
42:23
Exposure therapy, I, I mean, I, I kind of see that little bit
42:29
like taking yourself out of your comfort zone, which I strongly
42:33
believe in, feel like you've got to take risks in life and you've
42:36
got to go out. So I love the whole concept of.
42:39
That's the form of exposure there.
42:40
Yeah, I, I, although I'm, I'm, I'm here with you.
42:43
We're talking about stress. We're talking about anxiety.
42:45
I love stress and anxiety in a very sick way.
42:48
I will always like actually, not always.
42:51
I'm I'm not telling you the truth now because I will avoid
42:54
this. I won't because of the tube, the
42:55
whole claustrophobic vibe in the tube.
42:57
If I can walk, I'm going to walk.
42:59
I am just not going to go in that tube because I just think
43:02
why put myself through that? But be careful.
43:04
I know, I know, but there's other things like in business
43:08
and in things and when I'm uncomfortable and I'm scared to
43:10
do it or going on the Blooming Apprentice, it's like go and do
43:14
it because it's like professional things that but
43:17
with a tube. There's something about that
43:19
underground. I don't like it.
43:20
I I do do it, but I really don't.
43:22
I can avoid if I can. You can't.
43:25
Yeah, but just be careful because when you do a void, you
43:27
teach the brain that the tube is dangerous.
43:29
And it's not. It's just uncomfortable, you
43:32
know? Also, there's an element in your
43:34
professional life you have the illusion in the agency of
43:37
control, whereas if you're sat on the tube you have no control.
43:41
You're precisely right. So so go.
43:43
So go and practice. With no.
43:45
Control. But then you still have control
43:46
in the in the tube. Like it's fine.
43:49
You just have to, you just got to wait.
43:51
But you can still stand, you can stretch your legs, you can play
43:53
on your phone and do whatnot. It's that it's symbolic, isn't
43:57
it? You don't have control in the
43:58
tube, but you have a control. It's also because you're
44:01
underground. I mean, when you're in a plane
44:02
you don't have, there's something bad about the plane.
44:04
You can see down, you can see through the window.
44:06
It's. AI people would say the opposite
44:08
to you. I'm I'm much more afraid of
44:10
planes than they are on the tube.
44:11
Really. Yeah, because they would just
44:14
the threat response will argue for you to avoid.
44:18
So my threat response would say you're 30,000 feet in the air.
44:22
You know you can't fall from a tube.
44:26
Yeah, but what? I'm not going to scare you with
44:28
thoughts. Yeah, exactly.
44:29
What can happen with the tube? Exactly.
44:31
But that's the way the brain does it, because it uses that
44:33
irrationality, you know, like if you're trapped, you're trapped,
44:36
you get out, you know, if, if the plane stops working.
44:40
Yeah, but you're not. Yeah, but it's.
44:43
Like freedom because you're in the sky.
44:45
I don't. Know yeah, but it's symbolic,
44:46
isn't it Yeah. Freedom.
44:48
Yeah. Is it free?
44:49
You know, like. It's more free than underground.
44:52
Stuck, is it? I don't know.
44:54
Yeah, man. Because the worst thing I tell
44:55
you this comes from this is what did it.
44:57
There was something in, in Russia, in Moscow, the
45:01
underground, there was a portion of the underground that
45:03
collapsed on both like sides, ends of the tunnel.
45:06
So if you're trapped in there with your in your train and the
45:09
ground collapses, you are trapped.
45:13
Did they get them out? I don't know.
45:14
Of course they did. I don't know.
45:17
Well, did they? I mean of.
45:18
Course they're trapped to the other side.
45:20
You just, you get them out, don't you?
45:22
Have to move boulders? Yeah, you have to.
45:24
Whereas if your plane stops working, you're finished.
45:29
But I'm just doing that to challenge.
45:30
No, I know, but does there's just it's.
45:32
Do you see how anxiety rationalises?
45:34
OK, but it's much like if you're going to die.
45:36
So it's saying. If you are going to, wouldn't
45:38
you rather die in the sky? No, I'd just rather not die to
45:43
be honest. No, I also rather not, but if
45:45
you had to. If I had to, yeah.
45:48
Seconds of hurtling. Towards the earth at 800 miles
45:51
an hour. I know it would be chaotic.
45:56
But the. Reason why, and if you look at
45:58
it, the reason why is that look at how anxiety has invaded your
46:05
reason. Yeah, its its whole.
46:08
Purpose is to get you to avoid. Threat.
46:11
That lion's a threat might eat you.
46:13
OK, let's not go near the lion. That tube is a threat.
46:17
Don't go on the tube and and. And it uses.
46:19
Your thoughts against you? Like, yeah, but it's
46:21
underground. Oh, but it's all that.
46:23
It's all this and that. It's like, doesn't matter.
46:25
It's insane. I'll go on it if I have to do it
46:27
because obviously I'm not going. To I'm not going to if I have to
46:29
go, I'm going to go because I'm late and there's no choice.
46:32
But given the choice, my then my rational brain will go.
46:34
Yeah, but you'll get the exercise.
46:36
You're outside, don't you don't have to Maybe also think of the
46:39
jug, the stress. You've got enough stress.
46:41
Maybe don't give yourself that extra stress.
46:43
Maybe just avoid that situation and just, you know, just there's
46:48
stuff to do, there's stuff to that and.
46:49
That's that's for you if you've got a lot on your plate, but if
46:51
you do find like you've got some stuff in your free in your jog,
46:55
get on the tube and then you'll feel really proud of yourself.
46:57
You've got Oh, I did exposure today and I've rewired my brain
47:00
exposure. OK, I like that because it's.
47:02
A it's, I like it because it's a fighter mentality.
47:05
It's yeah, I like that. It's empowering, you know, it
47:09
is. It is.
47:10
I like it. I like it it.
47:11
Feels great you're. Convincing me.
47:13
Yeah, it. Feels great when you.
47:14
Do that when you do it and. You get through it and you're
47:17
willing to be anxious. It's a very empowering feeling
47:20
because you're starting to overcome a phobia.
47:21
Yeah, 'cause I'm also saying that to my daughter.
47:23
So I've got to practice. What?
47:24
I preach, 'cause she's terrified of spiders.
47:27
And then those dandy long legs ones, you know, the thin and
47:30
they're so soft. I mean, they're like fluff.
47:31
They're so harmless. I'm like, come on, man.
47:33
Could take a feather duster and take him out freaking out and
47:37
and I'm like, no, just do it. If you do it once, it's not
47:40
going to be so scary. What's what's the worst that can
47:42
happen? They can pull.
47:42
You can just scoop them up with a little feather dust.
47:44
So they're so fluffy little things.
47:46
They can't even bite you. Their jaws are too small.
47:48
Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's the point like?
47:50
Yeah, but absolutely. Terrified.
47:53
Yeah, these things. But that's what fear does.
47:55
And yeah, and yeah, she might, she might be absolutely fine on
47:58
the tube and she's fine on the tube.
48:01
Takes your look at you and goes like, what's this?
48:02
Ridiculous. Totally odd.
48:04
Yeah, exactly. It's the same.
48:05
That's the thing with fear. It's a.
48:06
Rational. Yeah, it's a rational I.
48:09
Don't like spiders? I won't.
48:13
I can. I can live.
48:15
No, unless it kind of invaded my life to the point where I had
48:19
to, then yeah. But like, I see a spider, what,
48:21
twice a year? I don't really care, you know?
48:24
Yeah, I feel, I feel bad for spiders and one's so.
48:26
Horrible to them and they kill them and they've also got a
48:28
right to live. So but yes, exposure therapy.
48:32
I love that. I love that empowering.
48:34
You know, I'm going to go on the tube.
48:37
And what's one small step besides exposure therapy that
48:42
people listening can take for their anxiety, their stress
48:45
levels, you know, managing that. It's really common.
48:48
It's it's human. You're not.
48:49
You're not odd, like I'm not just saying that to make you
48:52
feel better. Like it genuinely is really
48:55
common. Anxiety will make you feel like
48:58
you're alone or you failed in some way and it's just nonsense.
49:01
Like no matter how your anxiety presents one, there's hope and
49:06
you can rewire the brain. Your brain is very neuroplastic.
49:09
It's OK if you just learn about it and stuff and be kind to
49:13
yourself. A lot of people as soon as they
49:15
get anxious, they assume that they've done something wrong or
49:18
that they're doing something or it's a flaw in their personality
49:21
or being. No, it's not.
49:22
And actually, it's probably a good part of your personality
49:25
because anxiety isn't always bad, makes you considerate.
49:28
It makes you not go gung ho into situations.
49:31
You know, it's part of your rationalization process.
49:35
It's not always the enemy, just sometimes it does start kicking
49:39
off more than it than it wants. More than it wants.
49:41
Yeah, but it's not a flaw in you.
49:43
It's just often look at what that's trying to tell you.
49:46
And for me, it was often, you know, my life as it is, is not
49:49
sustainable at the moment. OK, so you know, like the
49:51
blushing. And the people that blush have a
49:54
morbid fear of blushing. You were talking about rewiring
49:58
your brain. Could you potentially rewire it
50:01
to stop the blushing? Or is that again the problem of
50:04
you're saying to anxiety you're, you know, you're giving anxiety
50:08
too much credit and then making it worse?
50:10
Well, I'm a therapist. I'd be like, why do you care
50:12
that you? Blush and often, you know,
50:15
things like that can go into like feelings of shame and often
50:21
deeper things, you know, like if I blush, I don't really care
50:25
because I wasn't really made to feel self-conscious.
50:29
But for a lot of people, like depending on how they grew up,
50:34
having attention on that. Oh, absolutely.
50:36
Having attention on you might not be good.
50:39
You know, whether it's blushing, sweating, whatever the notion of
50:43
those self perpetuating anxiety symptoms is, I hope I don't
50:47
blush. Whether you are going to blush,
50:48
you're going to blush. If you think that, why is that
50:50
the problem? Like So what if?
50:52
You blush. You know, a lot of what I do
50:54
with clients is just tell everyone.
50:57
Step one, I'm doing public speaking.
50:59
I do get anxious. So if I blush, all, all of you
51:02
feel, all of you feel flattered, feel flattered.
51:05
It's all about you. It's all about you.
51:08
So we've spoken about the self optimization culture.
51:10
Well, not really that much, but self optimization culture is the
51:14
whole Wellness thing of like trying to be as perfect as you
51:17
can. And I mean that that's the sort
51:19
of, it's almost like a movement in that direction.
51:21
You're trying to optimize yourself to be the best version
51:24
of you. And I think that creates a level
51:27
of anxiety. Yeah, self optimization.
51:30
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad lots of people talk about mental
51:34
health and Wellness and things like that.
51:36
But with that comes a commodification.
51:40
And people want to sell you quick fixes and cures and
51:43
optimize. And it's often through fear.
51:45
And they'll take some studies and some bits of information and
51:50
inflate it or conflate it to sell you something.
51:53
So whether it's this supplement for this or this for you got
51:57
Biome or this and that to make to optimize yourself, you know,
52:01
you see it all the time. You got things on your these,
52:03
these watches and rings and things like that because.
52:07
We're constantly. Optimizing and optimizing and
52:08
optimizing. But as a therapist, I often
52:11
think, you know, what are you signalling back to your brain
52:14
hundreds of times a day? Well, you're not optimized so
52:18
well, that's 100 messages back to you that you're not enough,
52:21
You're not fully functioning. And then you start to
52:24
internalize those messages. Yeah, I see that all the time.
52:27
Yeah, you see all the time. So people pour thousands of
52:29
pounds into just nonsense sometimes.
52:33
Don't get me wrong, I think we're adults as well.
52:35
A lot of what the self optimization culture does is it
52:37
infantilizes adults are like, we know basically what the food
52:42
groups are. We know that exercise is good.
52:44
We know we should sleep. This is not new stuff, but how
52:48
can we do it super better mega and pay me money.
52:51
And I'll tell you, and I just think I work with anxious people
52:54
and sometimes it's like, let's focus on what you're actually
52:58
doing right. And I think you'll find that
53:00
there is an abundance of things that you neglect to acknowledge
53:03
for that you're that you're doing right.
53:07
Yeah, in a self. Optimizing culture.
53:08
You're not going to think about what you're doing right, only
53:10
where the gaps are. Next thing, next thing, next
53:12
thing. Yeah.
53:13
And then, and then we. Die, and then we die.
53:17
I saw something else the other day which is exactly the 8. 8
53:19
billion people which were going to be dead in so many, so many
53:21
years. So why are we so like, obsessed
53:24
with silly buying kimchi for our gut buying kimchi?
53:28
Yeah, I like kimchi. Actually, because it's your
53:30
second brain. That's what it.
53:32
Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah.
53:35
Is it? Yeah.
53:37
It's so easy. Yeah, yeah.
53:41
OK, it's stress addictive. I think a reaction to stress
53:48
can. Be habitual.
53:49
Yeah, I think stress. Is often good.
53:56
As a distraction for some people to their internal feelings,
53:59
particularly workaholics, perfectionists.
54:01
If I'm always busy, I don't have to sit with feelings of being
54:03
still. See that as a therapist, I said,
54:06
what happens when you stop and sit and be still?
54:08
Oh, feelings I don't like, and they're the feelings I like to
54:11
work with. And what are those feelings?
54:14
Shame, guilt, grief. Wow.
54:20
Inadequacy. Things like that, people are
54:23
terrified of it. That's why I can never be on The
54:27
Apprentice. Oh, so I don't even.
54:30
Get me started. I just feel like I.
54:33
I'm not, I'm not, I'm not as driven as these guys.
54:35
I just, I, I like to chill out. No, you know the worst thing
54:41
about the whole? Apprentice thing for me, for my
54:43
personality, the worst thing is the lack of control.
54:47
In that situation. You do not know anything about
54:50
what your day is going to be or your week.
54:53
You can't call anyone. Maybe once a week, like a
54:56
limited time with someone listening, you might get that,
55:00
but you don't know when you're going to eat.
55:01
You don't know when they're going to come and get you for
55:02
the next task. You're not allowed to speak to
55:04
people. They put you in a dark corner
55:07
somewhere that you have to wait. You just never know what's
55:10
coming. You have 0 control, and you
55:13
don't have control over how it's edited either.
55:15
Of course not. And you know that there's Booby.
55:17
Traps you just like the the lack of control for me in that thing.
55:21
Same thing I don't like lately. Just play.
55:24
Like silly music over someone who said something that doesn't
55:27
sound that silly. But when you play silly music
55:29
over silly music, they look silly.
55:31
And I'm like. I don't really.
55:32
That's a bit. Don't really like that.
55:34
Doesn't sit well with me. Yeah, but you know the fact that
55:37
you have this. Like, this lack of control, it's
55:39
a deliberate thing because that is a genuine stressor.
55:43
So of course, we all know that if, you know, tired candidates
55:46
are going to fight more, right? So of course that this, they can
55:50
see TV. Yeah, they're going to make sure
55:52
that you don't. Get.
55:53
Much sleep at all Let's let's be clear, especially with me.
55:55
I'm awake, I can hear the snoring.
55:57
You know, I would like sleep two hours.
55:58
I would hear the camera people coming.
55:59
I I just knew I was like, Oh my God, they're probably going to
56:02
be here. I don't know.
56:02
So I was trying to control when are they coming?
56:04
When are they coming? Oh, I couldn't.
56:06
Oh my. Word.
56:07
And then I would be. Sort of waking up every now and
56:09
again to hear and then finally I'd hear them and by the time
56:11
they come into the house, because I've got to get the
56:12
equipment, it's another two hours.
56:13
So I basically only had maybe 2 hours of sleep, if that.
56:16
How can you function Yeah, setting you up for that stuff
56:20
as. Well, and some people could
56:22
sleep better, but the lack of. Control.
56:25
That is horrible. It's just horrible when someone
56:28
dictates your life. I mean, I'm.
56:30
I'm sure that's what. I don't know if that's what
56:32
prison must feel like someone else is controlling you.
56:35
But at least there's a routine. This is There's no routine with
56:38
this kind of thing. You have no clue when you're
56:39
eating or what you're doing. Yeah.
56:40
It's all like a social experiment.
56:43
Isn't it for entertainment? Push people, push people to
56:45
their limits for that, for for entertainment and stuff like
56:49
that under the guise of it's like someone's doing you a
56:51
favour. They're not, but it's that
56:54
anxiety, it's like. Like what can we do to create
56:58
maximum anxiety? And it's the that that makes the
57:03
good TV because and with the anxiety, with that height, like
57:08
insanely powerful version, then comes great TV.
57:11
Yeah, which is then edited. Yeah, which makes it even more
57:14
pretty. Look, it's a.
57:15
It's a very good program. The way it comes out.
57:18
But yeah, that the price is is we are going to make you very
57:22
stressed. Yeah.
57:24
Can you handle it? No, I don't want to.
57:26
No, I don't think I would be able to.
57:28
Oh. Gosh, yeah, also just.
57:30
Working with people and all those.
57:32
Egos. I couldn't do it like I I would
57:34
be out the door straight away. That's why I work.
57:38
I work on my own, so to live with them, yeah, it's.
57:42
Because they're all huge personalities, so if you can
57:44
have one in a room, you can just about handle it.
57:47
But then they all there, like 17 of them really intense
57:50
personalities, you know? So I just take my book and sit
57:54
in the corner. I think, yeah.
57:56
Well, you won't allow books. Yeah, you won't allow.
57:58
Books. No.
57:59
No phone, no books. No materials.
58:01
Nothing to read, no exercise, nothing.
58:03
Yeah, no, they did. This is a but this is just tell
58:05
you something like prison. This.
58:07
Is it's special you can get a book in prison.
58:10
No. No books, not no you.
58:12
Can't. You can't write anything.
58:13
You have no pen, you know, paper, nothing.
58:17
So you can't, you can't connect in that way.
58:21
You can't go and watch TV. You can't go for a walk.
58:25
So at one point I was getting, you know, the claustrophobic
58:27
tube feeling. I was going.
58:28
I just want to go for a walk. And I can I please just go for a
58:31
walk? No.
58:32
Were you afraid of the tube before going on that show?
58:42
Yeah. Feeling trapped.
58:44
Hey. Yeah.
58:46
So tell us. About your podcast.
58:49
I have a podcast. Called disordered and I also
58:53
rebooting my original 1 called the panic pod just 20 minutes of
58:58
me and the dulcet northern tones talking about bits of anxiety
59:03
and stuff. But disordered is one with me
59:05
and another therapy colleague and we talk about all things
59:08
anxiety disorders. If anyone's listening today and
59:10
they wife says resonated it's a great place to start.
59:15
You know, it's just me and Drew talking about some good things
59:18
and about our lived experience with anxiety, but also the
59:23
evidence of based approaches towards it and both how we got
59:26
better than how we work with other people.
59:28
And it's there's a lot of community wins in there as well.
59:31
So we get people to send in their voice notes and we all
59:33
celebrate that. Like, like that.
59:35
We had one the other week, you know, gang on the tube.
59:37
We got on the tube the first time in years.
59:38
And I was like, that's great. You know, we and we play them on
59:41
the show and stuff, so it's cool.
59:42
Oh wow, Yeah, we'll. Put the descriptions in in in
59:46
the channel description for this episode.
59:49
So anyone watching, and I will be, I will be watching too
59:54
because I think it's really good.
59:55
It's nice to tap in and it's nice to talk about this and to
59:58
know that you're not alone. And whether you have a tube fear
1:00:00
or whatever it might be, or you blush or you get really nervous
1:00:05
on stage or on a podcast or even just speaking up in a meeting or
1:00:10
at school because we have some young good ones or uni in the
1:00:13
lecture hall. You're scared to.
1:00:15
Yeah, well, it's it's literally fair if you choose to do.
1:00:17
Something despite the fear. I mean, it's the definition of
1:00:21
courage, isn't it? You're being courageous.
1:00:24
Courageous. Yeah.
1:00:24
And I see that in people. Just because it's not
1:00:27
conventionally courageous doesn't mean that it's not
1:00:30
physiologically the same fear. And that's courage.
1:00:34
And I and I say that to to everyone also.
1:00:37
You can be ambitious and and anxious.
1:00:41
You can do both. You can do both and it's OK of
1:00:45
course. It's OK, one thing I say in my.
1:00:47
Practical times. All feelings are welcome, even
1:00:49
the ones you don't like. It's been amazing having you on.
1:00:53
Thank you. Thank you so.
1:00:54
Much for coming. Thank you.
1:00:55
It's been a pleasure. Thank you.
1:00:58
Go on the tube I. Will, I'm going to know I like
1:01:00
that it's an empowering. I like that.
1:01:02
Exposure therapy. Expose myself.
1:01:05
Yeah, do it. Go.
1:01:06
Be anxious. Go.
1:01:07
Be anxious. Love it.
1:01:08
Thank you. Thanks.
1:01:09
So much, Josh. Thank you.