Latest / Leaders in Customer Loyalty, Powered by Loyalty360 / #522: Leaders in Customer Loyalty: Supplier Voices | Bringing Data Together: Why a Modern Tech Stack is Crucial to Personalizing Customer Journeys

Transcript

#522: Leaders in Customer Loyalty: Supplier Voices | Bringing Data Together: Why a Modern Tech Stack is Crucial to Personalizing Customer Journeys · Leaders in Customer Loyalty, Powered by Loyalty360

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: Good afternoon, good morning.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: Mark Johnson from Loyalty360.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: Hope everyone's well.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: I want to welcome you to another edition of our Leaders in Customer Loyalty podcast.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: This is a supplier voices series.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: In these episodes, we speak with leading agencies, technology partners, and consultants in customer channel and brand loyalty about the best practices that are driving customer loyalty today.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: In this episode, we're heading across the pond, straight to Germany, to take a look at the state of global customer loyalty.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: We'll explore how a 35 million member coalition program is shaping best practices in customer experience and brand loyalty.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: We're going to dive into the latest thinking around AI and hyper-personalization and unpack what brands must do to create the kind of emotional engagement that everyone is chasing.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the podcast, David Glantz, Director of Business Development, and Jürgen Hesse, the director of LPS Rays, all part of LP Solutions.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: Gentlemen, thank you very much for taking the time to join us today.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: How are you?
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'm fine.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm doing great.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's powerful, I think.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: You sound smarter just having the accent.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: So man in Australia.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure if I would agree with that one, but okay.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: What does the company do?
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what clients do you serve?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, LPS is in the market for more than 20 years uh right now.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: So we are we are uh we have been spun off uh from Payback.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: So Payback is Europe's largest coalition uh program, uh retail coalition program, and we cover the technology and consulting uh part.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: So we offer a comprehensive range of loyalty capabilities um in the area of technology.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: So we offer uh standalone two standalone SaaS uh platforms.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: We deliver it, we customize it, we operate it um as end-to-end uh solutions.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: And um on top of this, we cover the whole loyalty lifecycle.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: So we are a loyalty full service provider, um, which means that we can help our clients in strategy and consulting, in program design, for sure in the technology part, but also in the ongoing optimization um of the existing programs.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um we have clients um so in the airline and travel industry, uh, we have clients in the retail industry, um, we have clients in the railway um industry, and bit what makes us unique.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: So uh whereas some others coming more from the tech from a tech company part, we cover technology plus consulting, plus the loyalty business uh know-how we inherited from uh from payback.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so this makes us a bit unique.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: So we we have the technology, but we also know how to make loyalty commercially successful, and that's uh what our clients uh like and what uh how we can support them.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: You you you mentioned there real quick that uh you know how to make customer loyalty successful.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: There's a kind of a bit of a challenge right now.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: We're seeing in the US uh we're gonna talk about at the conference coming up, both in the spring and the fall, about the CMO-CFO divide, right?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: Where some CFOs want to change the value of the program, right?
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: They're looking to maybe devalue the program, uh, change the expiration dates, but that can have some significant deleterious impacts on the program going forward.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so you know, how do you help brands do that?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: And you talked about strengthening customer relationships.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: How do you help them, you know, make sure the form the program is performing in a way that kind of maybe keeps both the CMO and the CFO happy?
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think maybe it's more a question for David because it's more prevailing currently in the airline industry where we have this discussion.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: In the retail industry, it's not so uh common right now, but David, maybe for the airline industry, I think you're more the expert on that one.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I can I I can take uh I can take this.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um and yes, you're right.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: So on the one hand, uh loyalty is a cost factor from the CFO uh perspective and also from the revenue management, uh airline revenue management person uh perspective.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: On the other hand, it drives um planable, sustainable revenues and uh profits.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so uh I think since COVID crisis, everyone knows the valuation of the program because it have been used, they have been used as collateral uh to help the airlines uh airlines to survive uh the crisis.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: So they had to uncover uh the value, the real value of the programs.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: So um what does it mean?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so from a CFO perspective, uh the costs in the program have to be planable, and the costs, uh especially on the redemption side, need to be managed somehow.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: On the other hand, from a CMO perspective, the value drivers need to be clearly defined and made transparent because uh if the if there's only a cost discussion, uh the CMO or the loyal VP loyalty will uh always lose against the financial people.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: So they have to have their KPIs right in order to argument the value of the program for the for the members, but also for the companies.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is something we can help uh them to work on the right KPIs, to work on the right argumentation, and to make the make the value, uh the instrumental value of the programs transparent for the managers.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: Excellent.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe what I would add is um I think you have to look at loyalty as a as a long-term, long-term game, and it's a you need to have a long-term perspective.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, of course, there can be always cost pressure that comes from the CFO, but uh specifically look at the redemption, redemption rate, redemption costs.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: I always see it as a kind of an investment into customer loyalty.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, because in the end, what drives the program and what drives the customer coming back is the relevance and what the relevance, what the customer gets out of the program.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, there is a cost associated with the program, but um only if you provide this really moments that uh this rewarding moment to the customers, they will come back and they will then give you the loyalty in the long term.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I always see it as a kind of an investment that you need to put in the loyalty that will pay off, but yeah, in the in the short term, it's sometimes difficult for the discussion with the CFO.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: That's awesome.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I think this uh you know kind of leads to a kind of follow-up question.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: When you look at some of the services that you provide, uh you talked about consulting, having the right metrics, understanding the drivers, understanding the value proposition to both the CMO and CFO, you know, when you look at LP Solutions, what are your unique value propositions that uh you have within customer loyalty and customer engagement that you bring to the brands, to your partners?
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh I think what what David mentioned at the very beginning is that we're not just a service uh or a software provider, we're a full-service loyalty provider.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: And um as David mentioned, we covered a lot of industries from global airlines to omni-channel retailers.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: But I think what sets us apart is a little bit besides our service portfolio, uh, I think is that we are part of the payback group.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, payback group, as David mentioned, is still the biggest and I think probably the most successful loyalty collision program worldwide.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um several serving here in 10 markets uh in Germany, we have like 35 million active customers, 18 million active app users.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: So uh and we are part of the group.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: So and and loyalty is basically all in our DNA.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: But I think what gives us a little bit of uniqueness and a unique perspective is that yes, we are operating loyalty programs, uh, we are operating from a from a paypay perspective, and also we are getting a lot of insights from there.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: So we are also an operator of our own loyalty programs, and on the other hand, we are a service provider that provides loyalty platforms to companies that operate their own programs.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: So we see both ends.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: So we also basically are in the client perspective in operating loyalty programs, and that gives us, I think, a unique perspective that, of course, we're using then in shaping our platforms, uh, coming up to real life operations, real life solutions, and not just having theoretical knowledge about it, on being in the shoes of a loyalty manager because we are actually in the shoes of a loyalty manager on a daily basis within the group.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually spent most of my career on the payback side now and on the LPS side.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: So we also have a lot of interactions with our colleagues, and of course, we are sharing this knowledge and this expertise, and we're using it, of course, to the benefit of our clients.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what sets us really apart, and this is a little bit unique from our company and from our positioning that we have this operational knowledge also from a program perspective, from a program operating perspective.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: And when you look at coalition in Europe, obviously it's big in Canada, big in other parts of the world, not as big in the US.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what does it say to coalition?
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: Is it thriving in Germany?
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's a payback program doing well.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, kind of the coalition partners, did they find value?
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: And what are you seeing in coalition generally right now?
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think it is.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's still very successful, specifically in Germany.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I know that there are many other coalitions that were actually struggling around the world.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: There are there are many examples with Air Miles.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh also, no, we have a very prominent example here in Germany recently, the Deutschland card, which started also as a coalition program 15 years ago, I believe.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it was one of the major competitors of the Payback business.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: And they actually announced yesterday that they will cease their operation soon.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they had already struggled before, they were changing a little bit their business model, moving away from this coalition model.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but this was also now a recent example on uh how not to be successful.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: But on the other hand, payback is still very successful.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um the engagement numbers are increasing, as mentioned, 35 million active customers, really active customers.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh increasingly a bigger coalition partner portfolio.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: They acquired the biggest grocery company in Germany recently, uh, the biggest bank in Germany.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really a mass program and it keeps growing.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Although many people have said it's impossible to grow more in Germany.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: The market is saturated, but uh the colleagues still find ways to keep growing and keep being successful.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that's not the truth in all other markets uh around the world.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, as mentioned, there are prominent examples around the world where the collision has not been successful, but uh payback is definitely the bit the the unicorn that stands out there.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think the one of the major differences is on the business model that uh the points is not part of the PL.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: So points is really just the clearing mechanism between the partners.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: And in the end, what it brings to it's there is no cost incentive for payback to have points expiry.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: So in the end, what it means, uh payback as an operator is driving the redemption.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: And that comes back to my point, what I mentioned before.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: It drives redemption and has a very high redemption rate of constantly having 94-95% of the points that get issued gets also redeemed.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: So the customers really seeing this value that they're getting out of the program.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's really together with this uh giant partner portfolio and the daily relevance that uh drives the payback business and the success of the payback business.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, excellent.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_02: When you look at uh LP solutions, uh you've talked a little bit about full service offering, right?
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: Technology, you have the strength of payback, you have kind of the great relevance and understanding how programs should work.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: Uh competitors are kind of shutting down.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, when you look at kind of a uh brand's broader customer loyalty and customer engagement strategies, you know, what kind of solutions are you seeing now that are creating the most impact for your clients?
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, we are, let's say we're coming from the technology side.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: So this is our core product.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so today we have two platforms in place.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: So one is represented by Jürgen uh for the more retail-oriented uh businesses, and one is the other is represented by me for the more advanced.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think this is the so this is the base layer of our services where we can help our clients.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: And both of these they are built modular, so this is a pick and choose model.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: So the clients only have to pay for what they are using.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: So for sure, they are always core modules, which is a must-have.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: But on top of these core modules, the clients have to choice and only pay for what they really need.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: And on top of this, our clients can decide for additional business services, so be it some operational services helping them to uh to be the partner of choice in their loyalty business, uh loyalty business configuration, loyalty business process management, or um uh be it some consulting uh services.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's a very I think this service portfolio we are offering gives the clients the choice to uh buy from us what they really need and what they really uh need to be uh successful to help to get the next stage into loyalty.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: And um if we think, yeah, so we usually uh are working in two different scenarios.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: So the first scenario is uh a client approaches us uh and says, uh, okay, I would like to establish a new loyalty program.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then usually we we start with a strategy project, we build a concept with him, uh, we help to launch a program and we bring in the technology.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: Or the other scenario is um the client has an existing program and wants to make this program better, more profitable, whatever, renew it.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh and then we help them to uh we help the client to modernize the platform, we help to modernize the plat the program from a value proposition uh point of view.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: We maybe help them to expand the partner portfolio, uh we help him to um monetize the data and things like that.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: So, in general, we see ourselves as a long-term uh partner for our clients, and we are helping them to continuously uh make the program or bring the program to the next level, not only once, not only one shot, but let's say ongoing.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: So our client relationships are more or less 15, 20 plus uh years.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: We are not a company uh who's working with a client for three to five years and then uh fire and forget.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: So we are we are a long-term partner.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: When you look over the last 12 months, you know, what major customer loyalty or customer experience trends, strategies have you have you seen?
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: Is it AI?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: Is it the coalition?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: Is it personalization?
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: Is it the pursuit of value potentially?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: What are some trends that you're seeing?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, more talking about the retail and the non-noline industry.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think a few things that that stood out from my point of view is definitely AI.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think that the topic is omnipresent everywhere.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: Everywhere you go in any kind of uh conference, loyalty conference, AI is the topic and it's part of any kind of discussion, any kind of uh any kind of presentation.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think we we see good use cases uh currently already in setting up campaigns and creating campaigns and promotions, analyzing huge amounts of data in a very simple way.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: So there definitely AI is is has a huge impact.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think so far we see it brings a lot of efficiency gains in managing a loyalty program and really uh limiting the time that the people need and operate the program and the platform.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: On the other hand, interestingly, is that uh when discussing with clients and potential leads, AI is still not so present.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: So uh my point here is that I think many companies still don't know exactly how to apply AI in the loyalty world.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: But it's definitely a topic, and I think it's pretty much driven currently by also by many of the providers.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: Another trend that I've seen is uh combination from transactional and emotional loyalty.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think that has been around also for for some time, but uh also I've been in a loyalty conference uh two weeks ago here in Germany.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: Emotional loyalty was also a very present topic.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think there it's it's really important to combine the two things.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: You need to have this transactional loyalty, really to have like this baseline benefit that the customer is getting in a tangible way, and then of course, if you need to, in order to have a long-term uh customer loyalty, you need to tap in also on the emotional uh on the emotional side in the relationship with the customer.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then, as you mentioned, personalization.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: Personalization has been also around for many, many times.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um and we are getting now into a phase where we see hyper-personalization.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um and but also many customers and companies are still struggling to really have a personalized customer journey.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there is still some work to do.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think specifically when we're thinking about also when we're looking at it from the customer point of view, um, I mean the customers are not stupid.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: They know that when they are participating in the loyalty program, they give the data and in return they want basically the benefits, be it either transactional, intangible, or intangible.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: So they know that the companies are working with their data, they're analyzing their data, but then also the expectation, of course, when the customers are rising in the level of personalization that they're saying, okay, if I already provide my data, then I also want that the company, the operator of the loyalty program, really understands me and provides something to me that is relevant and it is really focused on my individual preferences and needs.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: So there, I think also coming from the customer point of view, the expectations are rising towards personalization.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: This one size fits all.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think that is definitely in the past.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think there is still some catching up to do on really delivering a personalized message away from just tagging the name, but really getting into the hyper-personalization station part.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: So this is still a topic.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then uh customer centricity, so uh goes in the same way, like individual loyalty, giving uh the customers options.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: So um we know that customers you don't have a one-size-fits-all approach.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: So uh why don't you give the customer a choice?
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: What kind of benefits fits he wants?
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think one of an example that we see recently is Alaska Airlines, one of our partners, um, that they now provide uh individual uh choices when it comes to the status level.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I think this is also an interesting move on individualizing not just the communication, but also the benefits and the value proposition of the program on targeting individual needs.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: So you talked about hyper-personalization.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: That was something that was uh a big focus a couple of years back.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's definitely uh coming back again, but it was it was uh something everyone was talking about, hyper-personalization.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it kind of died on the vine, but it's definitely coming back this year.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: But you need technology to be able to do that, correct?
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: So the right technology, training, making sure everyone understands it, whether it's from clientele or that CSR is having the right data.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: So, how should brands or are there certain types of technology brands should be leveraging to get to hyper-personalization?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that um, first of all, you need to have a modern loyalty stack or a modern tech stack.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think that that is definitely clear.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: And when it comes with it, you need to have this unified uh view on the customer.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: There we still see a lot of silos that are in many companies that really have different their customer data, and uh the data related to customer behavior sits across various uh across various silos, various systems.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: So you need to have a good larger stack in order to bring it all together.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's the baseline.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't have that, I think hyperpersonalization will never work.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then, of course, on the other side, you need to have a good promotion engine that translates these customer data into then real action when it comes to promotion, when it comes to incentivation levels, and so on.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there the technology is there.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you just need to bring it uh together and use it.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think then you have a lot of capabilities that are interesting also, not just from a lawyer perspective, but and also catering the CFO part and make him happy.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, because then really can play with incentivation levels.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: You can identify maybe a customer reacts already to one uh to an offer, and you don't need to spend so much from the uh from the redemption cost, from the reward cost, because you let's talk about a points-based program.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe that customer already reacts, giving a double points, while as you know, maybe somebody you need to give a little bit more and you need to have a four times fivefold uh points value.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then you can really play with these levels and identify okay, what's really the threshold you need to invest in order to make sure customers reacting to your promotion.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then also the CFO is happy because what you can see is then basically you hopefully get exactly the same result on the revenue side, but you have to invest less on your reward costs, for example.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have a couple of examples of brands who are using customer data and insights more effectively to create personalized and relevant experiences, maybe some clients.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: That you work with, or clients that you interact with, you know, that are using data in a pro you know productive and proactive manner.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think the best example that I know would be actually payback, uh, because they have such a uh uh very extensive set of transactional data, of course, and customer data coming from this huge amount of partner portfolio.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um so they they have a lot of insights on the customers and they're using it in a hyper-personalized way.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, in in really examples that I mentioned before is actually some things that are being applied on the paybeck side.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I think they and they have a huge department on data analytics, data scientists, exactly, to make sure to drive more relevance, to optimize campaign performance, marketing, platform performance.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think that is the best example that I've seen so far in NNO.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: Also also from a US perspective or from your airline perspective, uh, you know, we are working for Alaska and for United, and I think uh both of them, yeah.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: So Alaska after the merger with uh Hawaiian and the new program they recently launched, and with a very unique uh value proposition that you can on a personalized on a personalized way um on a personalized way uh set your let's say goals to get uh the status either via segments or via dollars spent or uh or via miles uh miles flown.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so this is the first step into uh we call this individual uh loyalty design.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not only per personalization based on the on campaign level, it's also personalization based on loyalty mechanics levels, and this is something uh we see more and more.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I think in uh in Alaska or in the airline industry in general, this is only the first step uh towards this concept.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: So we are talking to many many airlines in in uh at the moment who are thinking in this way, and the technology is there.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: So today we can do this, yeah.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we can um we can work with a member base and split it into sub-member bases and build uh within the program itself different kinds of smaller sub-value propositions uh and to uh to to motivate and incentivize uh this particular sub-member groups in the way they are needing it and to achieve uh the goals.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: So whereas the programs in the past have been designed around the frequent flyer, frequent buyer, frequent stayer, whatever, yeah, uh in the in the past, today uh they are looking into them uh their membership base and looking, okay, where whom do you have?
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: And you have in an airline program still the frequent flyers, but you have also the frequent buyers in the partner ecosystem.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: You have the frequent spenders based on the credit card, but not necessarily flying that much.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: So and all of them need to be treated differently.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then you have uh Gen Z uh member uh who maybe uh is looking more into the gamification uh part of the program, is not uh motivated by the points and status uh mechanics.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you have to figure out and build your person your individual loyalty concept around this.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: And uh yes, based on the technology we have in place, we can uh we can support this.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is a major trend, not only in the US, beyond.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think this is something which will uh be seen all over the world soon.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: When you look at the success, success that you have with clients, uh obviously being able to prove that the consulting is working and the programming design is working, the technology is working is very important, probably more so than ever, especially going back to that CMO, CFO divide that we talked about a little bit.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: When you look at uh how you measure success, how how do you measure success of kind of your design work, uh the strategy, and how uh are, you know, what are some maybe key performance indicators?
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that that's a very interesting question.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh not so tricky, uh not so easy to answer.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: There are some tricky parts of it, but uh let me try to break it down a little bit.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: So um I think we we have a lot of variety when we come to uh different customers, different sizes of our customers, different industries, but a few things uh always stand out and they're uh they have in common.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we typically see three different areas.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um let me start with the first one that is the least sexy.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: This is what we call operational excellence.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: So the program needs to be running, the technology needs to be running, uh, real-time data processing, you want to have short time to market.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that is typically governed by uh service level agreements, uh response time sets.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: Not taxi, not sexy, but it's the technical foundation that needs to work.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um then we have the the member excellence, so really on looking at the customer.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think there are basic uh KPIs such as member activity, customer lifetime value, how many new customers you have acquired, retention rates.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that this is all pretty common.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um then we see engagement rates, so specifically in the digital channels, how many times customers are coming, engaging with you digitally, unlocking in, opening apps, um, and so on.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I want to highlight two actually that stands out a little bit, and I think that are uh for me critical in really making sure the loyalty program is successful.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: And the first one is uh one and done rate.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: So customers are interacting once, coming once to a loyalty program, typically attracted by a huge sign-up bonus and they never come back.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we see that quite often, and I think here it's really important that the loyalty managers are focusing, having a good strategy, and to drive this the customer really to come to a second, to a third transaction or engagement, or depending on what kind of program it is.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: But currently I see that really loyalty, many loyalty managers are focusing on bringing customer into the program, but then lacking to bringing really this this first step to bringing into the first, second, and third transaction.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: So one-and-down rate is definitely one topic that you need to bring down.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: And the second one is, and I mentioned it already before, is for me is redemption rate.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: So redemption rate is critical because uh, as mentioned, it caters to the relevance of the program.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: If the program is not relevant to the customers, it will not be successful.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: The best way for me to measure customer relevance is the redemption rate.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: So it doesn't need to be necessarily in a points-based program where it's very easy to, of course, to measure, but it can also be how many customers are reacting to your campaigns, how many are really then uh redeeming certain amount of rewards that you're offering.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that's more the the member, the member side.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then to come also to make the CFO happy, it's it's the commercial, the commercial aspect.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: And that's definitely the most tricky one, I would say.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um so a loyalty program, it's it's not an isolated area within the company, and and and the customer behavior gets influenced with various internal and external factors.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: So um it's not so easy to really identify what's the incremental impact of a loyalty program on your PL.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um one side, the cost side, is I would say rather easy and feasible to measure on a loyalty program.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: But the tricky part is of course the other side.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: So the positive impact on the incremental revenue and and um and the profit.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: But there are some indicators and indications that that uh our some of our customers are using.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think the rather simple one is you compare the two big different customer segments, uh customers that are within your loyalty program and customers that are that are not within the loyalty program, and of course, very simple ones like uh sales frequency, average order value, shopping basket, and so on.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: That works very well in the e-com business where where you have an online account and then you can make this comparison.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and it lacks, of course, in in the offline world, in the retail uh brick and mortar store where you don't have this data on not loyalty, on non-loyalty data.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a little bit tricky there.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: But at least it gives you an indication uh if you have uh the possibility to do so.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then I would say the um the another way to look into incremental revenue and to uh try to establish the program RRI is definitely the key channel is attributional now.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: So you really need to um estimate what what kind of customers would have come without the program, uh, versus they wouldn't have come when you have a pro wouldn't have a program.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: So this what if analysis, and I think this is definitely the trigger part to kind of identify this kind of behavior.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and here companies that can use either long-term control groups or holdouts where basically uh actively they are not engaging within the program or not actually uh participating within the program to see really what's the uh the incremental revenue uh or and the the impacts the program really had on the customer behavior.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um there are chances in their way to measure and look at the pre versus the post um uh behavior once implementing a program, and some companies can do that.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, they either if you have a customer history, then it's rather easy to do so.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: So you measure and you look at well, how was the customer behaving and interacting with you uh before he launched and he participated in the program versus afterwards.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh again, easier in the e-com business, not in the real world.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but there are other ways also to to measure that.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, what we have seen, for example, with some companies or isolated companies, is there are uh working with market research companies, so there are like um retail services and companies that are measuring the uh retail transactions here in Germany.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so they have like a basket, and then you identify yourself also within your shopping, so they measure basically on a household level all the expenditures, and there was a way to also connect the databases to identify on a GDPR compliant way to identify the behavior of these kind of customers before joining a program, and then you have a chance to make this comparison.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: So this is a little bit more the complicated way, but uh overall that's definitely the tricky part because a large program it's just not an isolated uh it's not like an isolated part of the business, and the customer behavior has so many different influential factors.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: We see it more on our role in this whole discussion is more um from a consulting perspective to help the customers uh understand setting up a good KPI framework, understanding what kind of behavior can be measured with what kind of KPIs, what kind of business outcomes you can expect, and and really setting up a KPI framework and a measuring from when it fits to your business.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: So this is definitely what we can help.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, measuring exactly the program IRI, there is no one size fits all formula.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think you need to be very specific to the business and look what's the best way to come close to an indication.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it will not be perfectly measurable.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: Makes sense.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_02: When you look at uh the the clients you work with, uh, when you start up with them, do you see one or two things that they may be doing poorly, or are there one or two things that brands should be considering doing that they're not doing that could have a pretty significant impact on their customer experience and customer loyalty efforts?
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_02: If you were gonna recommend you know one or two things?
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: I would say um the usage of AI for personalization, this is something um which really can be improved because the technology is there today.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I I see a large uh potential, especially in the area of campaigns, but also in the area I tackled uh uh a bit earlier in this area of individual loyalty, uh, to individualize the loyalty mechanics for different kinds of subgroups in the in the member base.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: And um, many of our clients would like to have it, but some of most of them are today still a bit reluctant uh to implement it because um maybe it's a bit difficult to uh explain uh to their clients.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: And on the one hand, uh they say they have huge member bases, they would like to engage most of them, they don't want to concentrate on the frequent flyers, frequent buyers.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: On the other hand, uh everyone is talking about simplification of the programs, and this doesn't uh this is a contradicting goals, I would say.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh so therefore, um I would say if uh they would like to use the potential of their be it two million members, be it uh 100 million members more, uh they have to think about this uh AI supported personalization plus uh more individualization of the loyalty uh of the loyalty mechanics and rethink the need of the simplification of the program because maybe not every member needs to needs to have the full understanding of all the loyalty mechanics uh anymore if we if he or she is looking only into the relevant set of rules, relevant set of mechanics for his or her needs.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I think this is something uh we will uh most probably look into in the next couple of months or years, uh together with together with our clients.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um and this is some something in the area where we could help to improve.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think everyone is talking about it, everyone wants to have it, uh, but uh no one or only baby steps are taken in the program designs.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's awesome.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good point.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there's uh the goal I think that we should all have is to truly elevate customer loyalty, and and we should all be kind of singing from that same hymnal, right, around what's working, what's not working, sharing, uh, and and and talking about customer loyalty in a way that they talk about customer experience or CRM, right?
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: Because at the end of the day, when you have that emotionally connected customer you talked about, that that's the end game, right?
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: Because we know the attributes, we know the benefits, and everything, and everyone should be working towards that goal.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: Definitely.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: All right, great.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: Well, David and Jurgen, thank you very much for taking the time to speak with the state on our leaders in customer lobby podcasts.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: It was great getting to know you, talk about personalization, learning about coalition in Europe, uh, learning about some of the things that you see the brand should be doing and could be doing.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: So it was a very powerful podcast.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you very much.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Mark.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: Likewise, bye-bye.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_02: I also want to thank everyone for taking the time to tune in to our leaders and customer loyalty series, especially the supplier voices podcast.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, if you haven't already, please subscribe to the Leaders and Customer Multipodcast below and follow Loyalty360 on YouTube and LinkedIn.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: The links are provided below again.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: And also, again, join us every Tuesday for a new edition of our supplier voices podcast.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: Until then, have a wonderful day.