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The Slow Fade: When We Ghost Without Ghosting · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:05
  Speaker A: Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I'm your host, Michael DiIorio, and joining me today are Matt Lansdel and Reno Johnston. Today we are talking about the slow fade. When we ghost without ghosting. That's that quiet, gradual pulling away where the connection fades and we slowly disappear to the back instead of having the hard conversation. So today we'll be unpacking why we do it, what it feels like on both sides, and offering a kinder, more honest way to handle it. What we want you to get out of this episode is recognizing when this is happening, understanding the emotional reasons behind it, the consequences of it, and how to better handle it. Reminder. This podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. So if you enjoy what we're creating, you can support the podcast by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes. You could also tap on that thanks button on YouTube to show the community some love. Okay. We had initially planned to do an episode about ghosting. That was kind of what we had in mind. But then when I sat down to think about ghosting in my own life, the idea of the slow fade started to feel a lot more interesting to me. And that's because with ghosting, I think we do it because we think not everyone deserves an explanation, right? So if you're on apps and whatever, you can just ghost. And it's not that big of a deal. And unfortunately, it's become normalized with social media and dating apps these days, ghosting. But today I want to talk specifically about those times we quietly quit friendships and relationships that actually do deserve an explanation. So that's the caveat today. Okay? That is what we want to talk about with the slow flight. So what is the slow fade? It's not quite ghosting because technically you're still in touch. But the messages get shorter, the replies get slower, and you can sense the energy shifting, but you're not quite sure why. Eventually, you just start getting emojis instead of sentences. You might get a thumbs up, a heart reaction, but no real engagement. Suddenly, the person becomes busy a lot more or they're not feeling well a lot more plans stop happening and the effort just fades to black until one day, they're just gone. That's it. That is the slow fade, my friends. And it's that quiet form of ghosting where you don't actually slam the door shut. You just slowly Step until the door shuts on its own. And so I want you to think about this while we're having our discussion today. The viewers and listeners out there. I want you to think about this and even put this in the comments if you're watching us on YouTube. Is a slow fade better than ghosting? Is it kinder? Are we sparing people's feelings by not telling them the truth, or are we just avoiding discomfort? So that's what we'll be unpacking here today. Why we quietly quit relationships and friendships that actually deserve an explanation. So let's start there today. Let's start with Reno. It's been a while. I haven't seen Reno in a while. So, Reno, why do we do this?
• 3:26
  Speaker B: Yeah, there's a quote that comes to mind immediately, and it's something like, the quality of our life is determined by the number of uncomfortable conversations we're willing to have.
• 3:40
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 3:41
  Speaker B: And I have seen that be repeatedly true. And also, I think it's a quote for a reason. And that's likely because there's a universality around the difficulty of having uncomfortable conversations.
• 3:58
  Speaker A: Right.
• 3:59
  Speaker B: And especially as it pertains to relationships. And so, yeah, I think initially, the first thing that comes to mind is that discomfort. Like, there's. And it's quite nuanced as well. I think there are layers. For example, I know for me, one of the relationships that comes to mind where this felt really the most difficult was I had a friend, a girlfriend, and for whatever reason, at some point, I started to notice that I no longer felt inspired or moved to engage with her. And even as I'm saying this, I can feel the tenderness in my heart because we had so many beautiful memories together and, like, really unforgettable adventures, like, significant adventures, you know? And I couldn't understand for the life of me why I suddenly no longer felt inspired to hang out with this person. But I just didn't. And so what happened was there was this gradual sort of fade. Like, I would still invite her to some of my events and gatherings and things like that, because the love wasn't gone and the care wasn't gone. It was just like, for some reason, I, like, don't want to hang out outside of these contexts. And it's. It's wild because, like, if you've ever experienced this before, it's so perplexing because, you know, you love a person, you care about a person, you're comfortable spending time with them in certain group settings on a limited basis. There's really nothing wrong. Like, I Could not pinpoint anything wrong and yet just didn't resonate. And so because I was afraid that there wasn't something specific I could say. And I also didn't want to hurt her feelings, and I didn't want to experience the discomfort of having the conversation just so we. I just sort of quietly stopped talking to her. You know, done this before, not just with girlfriends, but also, like, people I'm seeing or dating or what have you, you know, for. There's just no longer a resonance. And sometimes it feels easier to not say that than to say it out of fear of discomfort. So I think that's a big one. And then there's another. There's another one, I think, as well, and that is that I've had some relationships where. How do I say this? Like, they were conflicting relationships. I felt like in some cases, maybe I was being, like, gaslit or there were power dynamics that were tilted, and it felt like the easiest way out of those dynamics for me was the slow fade. Like, I don't want to get into it with this person because I know that getting into it with them is just going to kind of pull me back in to this dynamic that I didn't want to be in. So I was like, I'm just gonna quietly exit, you know, and. And slowly exit and not disrupt. So those are two of the examples that immediately come to mind. And, yeah, I think the slow fade, it's nuanced because I do think that there are situations where it might be the best option, and I think it's a case by case. And then there are situations where I'm like, you know, I could have been a little bit braver there. I could have been a little bit bolder there and a little bit more honest and just said, hey, like, I love you. This feels really weird. And I just, like, don't. I don't feel moved to continue spending time together. And I. I don't know why, but that's just what's coming up for me. And, you know, no. No hard feelings. Like, I still love you. I will always love you.
• 8:01
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 8:02
  Speaker A: Reno, have you ever been faded?
• 8:06
  Speaker B: Oh, gosh, yeah.
• 8:07
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 8:07
  Speaker B: It's funny, this. This literally just came up because I don't know if I shared this. No, because we haven't seen each other in a minute.
• 8:14
  Speaker A: Right.
• 8:15
  Speaker B: I went on this, like, really epic date recently with this guy. He, like, took me. So he picks me up in this, like, cherry red Audi convertible, which is so fun. And he's, like, playing R and B. And then we like, drive to the harbor, and he takes me on a boat, and we ride out to the. Like, an island, and we have, like, oysters and food and drinks on this island, like, on the water's edge or something like that. And then we, like, boat ride back during sunset and, like, hang out. We have a second date. And then he said he really wanted to see me when he got back from Paris, and he did get in touch with me when he got back, but then there was, like, radio silence. And then I just checked in with him and said, yo, like, I have no expectations about what's going on here. I just want to close this loop. So, like, let me know what's up. I'm. I'm good either way. And he was like, oh, I'm really sorry. I was kind of, like, connecting with somebody else while. While I met you, and, you know, and that sort of took off. And so he's like, I didn't know what to say. And I said, yeah. I said, listen, it's totally cool. Like, no hard feelings. I think you're great. And. And, like, I had no expectations as to what would happen. And that was interesting because then he, like, continued the conversation and was like, how you been? So, you know, we'll see. It may enter into some sort of, like, friendly territory or something like that. But, yeah, that was recent one, so.
• 9:49
  Speaker A: So you've been on both sides of it, and it showed up in your dating life and your friendship life.
• 9:54
  Speaker B: Yeah. And it, like, I don't know. It's not awesome being on the receiving end. It's not awesome being on any side of it, you know, But I also think that experiencing something deepens our capacity for empathy, compassion, and optimal navigation of a situation, because we're like, oh, I know how this feels.
• 10:15
  Speaker A: I.
• 10:16
  Speaker B: Maybe I'll do better now, you know?
• 10:18
  Speaker A: We'll explore that one in the next question.
• 10:20
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 10:21
  Speaker A: All right. I want to hear from Matt. Why do you think people do this?
• 10:25
  Speaker C: I think the main one is probably loss of interest. Right. Like, there's just something has faded. Maybe there's an initial yumminess, and then it's. It's the idea of who we've created this person to be.
• 10:38
  Speaker A: Right.
• 10:38
  Speaker C: I'm thinking more in the dating context, and we get to know them a bit more, and they turn out not to be that. And we're like, oh, shoot.
• 10:43
  Speaker A: Right.
• 10:44
  Speaker C: And if we. If we come in hot and heavy to start, it's like, oh, now what am I going to do? Right? So I think loss of interest is probably a Big one. This actually just happened to me recently, and it happens all the time, really. Now that I think about, I want to really normalize this because it does happen all the time. And I think sometimes it's even mutual. It's like the resonance stops and it's like, okay, well, we don't want to have this difficult conversation, so let's just, you know, throw a few emojis back and forth so it's not going to be awkward when we see each other and then. Right. Like, those sorts of things, because the gay community is so small that it's like, you know, you're going to see these people. Right. So, but anyway, this guy, we. We were chatting and super attractive. We were like hitting it off and everything. And he ends it up. Ends up disclosing. And this was. After chatting for, I think, a day or two, he disclosed that he is struggling with alcoholism. For me, like, and this is a. This is a relationship dating context. Right. I don't even really want to date somebody that drinks alcohol, never mind someone that's struggling with alcoholism. I didn't want to hurt him. I didn't want to hurt his feelings, right? Because obviously he's struggling and he's got some things he's dealing with. And I didn't want to say, hey, by the way, like, you know, your alcoholism is a huge turn off, and I don't want to date you. So the slow fade came in into play and I was like, okay. And then, yeah, I think so. For me, it's. I don't want to hurt them. I don't want to reject them. I. I don't want to make them feel bad, those sorts of things. When the slow fade is done to me, I actually, believe it or not, it doesn't really hurt me. And you want to know why is because I believe so strongly in resonance and alignment. And I'm like, if somebody's slow fading me, like, it's. There's just no. No resonance, no alignment. And I'm likely feeling that too. It's very rare that I continue to have resonance for someone and they're slow fading me because I'll feel their disconnect from me. I'll feel that there's no resonance there. Right. So that's. That's why I love that. I've done a lot of work to get to the point where everything's energy. For me, it's not about how somebody looks or these sorts of things. It's about energy. I can feel, feel if they're. If they're Right. So I'll know if somebody's going to slow fade me. I can kind of feel it coming. And then that's usually I'm also like, okay, there's something lacking here. Right? It's like I can understand. I have a lot of understanding when that happens. I'm not saying that there won't be, you know, especially I think even more in the, in the area of friendship. I would probably be more hurt by it if there's already established love and connection and then it starts. Starts to fade, which has happened, you know, and it's even happened with lots of my really close friends friends and even some of my best friends that I've had over the course of my life. I've had a very. My relationship world has been very much like a snake. It's like shedding skin constantly and people come and go and, and I, I just believe in the, the saying that, you know, people come into your life for a reason, a season or a lifetime. And you know, for me, having that discernment about like, okay, this person wasn't meant to stay in my life longer than spring. You know, we had a spring experience. And. Or maybe some people come into my life and they're here for a lifetime, but the snake is always shedding its skin and the relationship has to evolve into something different. And that means we take space. So the slow fade can happen, but then that doesn't mean it can't pick up again later, right where. And that's happened with many of my really close friends, actually. It's like, okay, we need some space because you're pissing me off. And we're going to slow fade each other for a bit and then, you know, a few months later, we amp it up again and we start connecting and vibing. So, yeah, there's so many, there's so many things to this. I think it's. It's a big one. I want to also say this. I wrote down entertain. I think a lot of us, like, especially in the apps, the dating apps, as gay men, like, we connect with people because we're bored. And when somebody comes along that we perceive as better, that we slow fade the person that wasn't as good, right? And it's just this, this game of like. And that's why I think it's, you know, we as gay men can easily feel disposable because it's like we're all hopping to the next best thing and slow fading each other because we lose interest. And I think it can. These little Micro rejections can add up and really impact, and it impacts the quality of our dating experience. I think that's why, like, apps like Grindr and Scruff, I think they've really, you know, there's a time and a place for them, and I think they can be actually useful if you're. If you're just wanting casual sex. But I think they've eroded the fabric of connection in our. In our community in a lot of ways as well, for reasons like this.
• 14:59
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And it's just made ghosting in general, like the actual ghosting, very normalized. Totally. Matt, question for you. Looking back or looking at your experience with slow fade, have you more often been the fader or the fady?
• 15:13
  Speaker C: Probably the fader.
• 15:14
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 15:15
  Speaker C: I've been the fadey, though, for sure.
• 15:16
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. And. And same as Reno, it's been both friendships and relationships and dating.
• 15:23
  Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have a quick question for.
• 15:26
  Speaker A: For.
• 15:27
  Speaker C: Well, I guess the group. So at what point does someone deserve an explanation?
• 15:31
  Speaker A: O.
• 15:32
  Speaker C: Like, when is that. That tipping point when it's like, okay, this person now deserves an explanation? If I choose that I'm not interested in them.
• 15:39
  Speaker A: I can answer that for. For me, right off the top here, because it goes into my share. My slow fading shows up for me mostly in my dating life, not so much in my friendship life. But with dating, it's kind of like what you had just said, Matt. Like, I usually chat with a few people at a time, and if I date, I'll date a few at a time. And so it's very easy to kind of get lost in the shuffle. And so. Or if I'm just chatting with one person. We talked about this when we did the episode about courting and doing one at a time. That's one of the reasons I love courting. At any rate, when I'm juggling and not courting one person at a time, it's very easy for someone to kind of shuffle off slow fade. So I don't consciously recognize I'm doing it. It's just like, oh, this person here and this person here, to me are more interesting right now, and I'm more. I'm more willing to give them my time and energy. And so that other, say, third person, like, third on the list gets sulfated not because I'm consciously doing it, but just. Just because that's how it is. So to answer your question, I think. I think personally, the way. The way that I want to conduct myself in dating is that when I have gone on a date with somebody, like, physically person, like, you know, man to man, that I would like to be the person. And I'm not saying I do this. I would like to be the person who, if it's not going to go any further, say something and say, hey, listen, I had a great time. You're a great person. I'm not feeling a connection or whatever, whatever the situation is. I would like to be that guy. I'm not always that guy, but that's how I discern. Whereas if it's just chatting and we've never met in real life, then I don't think, to me, they don't really deserve anything. That's my role.
• 17:13
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 17:14
  Speaker A: What about you, Reno?
• 17:15
  Speaker B: Yeah. Well, there's a. It's a semantics thing for me because, like, I don't think anyone does or doesn't deserve an explanation. But what I would say is, like, I don't know. We get to, like. I get to decide if I want to or not. And to be honest, I think in some ways, in every case, I. I think it would be lovely to be the sort of person who. Who gives people an explanation, you know, and. And even in those difficult ones where I'm like, okay, I might get roped back in here, like, exercising power and sovereignty and being able to say, you know what? I'm. I'm letting you know that I am bringing this relationship to a close. Thank you for your lessons, for your medicine, and. And I'm moving on, you know, like, inevitably. It'd be great to just be able to have those conversations, you know, quickly and powerfully and. And with integrity. Yeah.
• 18:15
  Speaker C: How honest would you be in that process, you guys, like, in my. In the instance of me, like, would you have told him, I don't. I can't date somebody that drinks alcohol? Or would you say, like, oh, you know what? I'm just not feeling it? Or like, in your instance, if it's like you don't like their smell, like these sorts of things, like, do you actually say these things to them or do you make up a story or lie or. Right. Like, where. Where do you.
• 18:38
  Speaker A: I would say.
• 18:40
  Speaker B: You would say that.
• 18:41
  Speaker A: No, no, I wouldn't say. But I would say if it was something about the. Struggling with alcoholism, then that would just be that. That, to me, is just a very clear. Like, I get that's where you are. That's not where I am. To me, it's almost easier. It's like. It's just not. It's just not a match. I'm sorry.
• 18:55
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 18:55
  Speaker A: Yeah. But I think when I, like, want to, like, say face or like you had said, like, hey, we might see each other on the street. I don't want. I don't want us to be, like, not friends or anything. So that's when I would just slow fade away. Because it prevents me from being the bad guy. Because I don't want to be seen as the bad guy.
• 19:09
  Speaker B: Yeah, I think, like, I mean, the idea of a world and a humanity, like, how do I say this? Like an eq, like an emotional intelligence, a spiritual intelligence, a sort of, like a world of humans that are attuned, so much so that we can hold that level of honesty. Like, that's exciting to me, like, to be able to say to someone, you know, and know that, like, it's not like, it's not a me thing necessarily. Like, it's a you thing, but it might be a me thing, too. It might be like, you know, I should probably go get my teeth fixed, you know, but I can't afford it or whatever, you know? Or like, yeah, I'm. Thank you for mentioning that. I have bad breath. Like, I, you know, whatever. Right. Like, that sort of thing. Like, it's. It's. It would just be so interesting to live in a world where we were that honest with each other. But obviously, like, it's incredibly difficult. Like, imagine saying those things or being on the receiving end of those things. Dear God. We should actually do a whole episode on, like, radical honesty or something like that. That would be wild. Yeah.
• 20:18
  Speaker A: Well, that's what the slow fade is kind of preventing us from and saving us from. It's. It's this protection mechanism against that because you might not know what to say. You might not have the words. You might have the words, but you just don't want to hurt their feelings. There's. There's so many reasons why we do this, and. Yeah, and I mean, it's not saying it's a bad thing all the time. And we had made that point, sometimes it is the best course of action. And that's okay, too.
• 20:38
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 20:38
  Speaker C: Good question.
• 20:40
  Speaker A: All right, let's hear from our audience. So let's do a little audience engagement question for those of you listening to us or watching us on YouTube. Tell us, have you ever been in a slow fade situation? Tell us about it in the comments. How did it feel for you whether you are on the receiving end or the giving end? And if you're enjoying the conversation that we are having here, I want to invite you to join our connection circles. Every month we host Two connection circles where we facilitate a small, intimate conversation about the topics that we discuss here on the podcast. In a connection circle, though, we want to hear from you, our viewers and listeners. So what happens is we all come into a big group, we'll do a little brief intro, and then we put you guys into breakout rooms where you discuss the topic of the month. So if you're interested in these events, it's a great way to meet other people who are listeners of the podcast and get a chance to have the conversations that we're having here. So go to www.gaiman'sbrotherhood.com and check out our events section to RSVP or even better, make sure you get on our email list and we'll email you all the details. Okay, now I want to get into what's going on beneath the surface of both the fader and the fade. So I'm going to do something a little different here, guys. And I didn't warn them about this ahead of time, but I want to make this super real. So what I want to do is do a little, like, characterization, roleplay interview. I want to. I want us to get really curious about what's actually happening underneath. Not just the behavior, but I want to get really curious about the feelings and the stories and the thoughts that are driving the behavior. So here's how we're going to do this. One of you is going to be the fader, and I'm going to ask you a bunch of questions, okay? About what happens when you're slow fading. And I want you to get into character and, like, really think of a time that you have. You've had to duck. You've had to do this before, so it's real. And then I'll go to the other person, and then you'll be the fady. And I'm going to ask you a bunch of questions about what's going on in your heart and mind. Being the fady. Does that sound good?
• 22:35
  Speaker C: I like it.
• 22:36
  Speaker A: Okay, who wants to be the fady?
• 22:39
  Speaker C: Why don't you just pick?
• 22:40
  Speaker A: Okay?
• 22:40
  Speaker C: Intuitively think.
• 22:41
  Speaker A: Let's do Reno. Okay, so, Reno, you are being faded. Okay? I want you to get yourself into the time that this has happened to you. What are the early signs that someone is fading away from you? How do you know they have.
• 22:54
  Speaker B: So we've gone from, like, texting every morning throughout the day. There's, like, emojis and reactions, and, you know, there's like a. A consistent and constant engagement. And then suddenly, slowly, there are less messages. There are less reactions, there are less emojis, and then there's maybe silence. And it might extend for, you know, a number of days. And I'm sort of in the background reflecting, maybe curious. And it really depends on, you know, the context, because at a. At an earlier point, I would have been way more hung up about this sort of thing. Now I'm just kind of like, yeah, I already know what's going on here, and I'm kind of feeling the same way. So you've just sort of done what I don't have to, I guess. Yeah, that's kind of what's happening. And. And also, let me say this, though, so let me. Let me sort of tune into the energy of the faith. Previously, like back in my time when it was a bit heavier and harder, I'll say, like, there's sadness, there's maybe some grief, there's some disappointment. And I think also what's important to name is that the blow is less potent now than it was in that scenario. I'm also feeling tenderness back then, for sure. And me now is feeling a lot of empathy for that. That dude. Back then, myself, an earlier version of myself, my expectations were greater back then. You know, I meet someone, I project onto them in the situation. There's all this excitement. This is the person, and I'm finally chosen and somebody finally wants me and do. Do. And we're. This is going to happen and we're going to this and we're going to that. And suddenly it's like, boom, you know, silence. Okay, none of that's happening now. So, you know, the blow is greater because the expectations are greater, which is different now. Now I'm just like, yo, what up? Let's see what happens. Yeah.
• 25:12
  Speaker A: Okay, so let's go back to the. The earlier version of you, the early one K. What is going through your mind? What are some of the stories you're telling yourself as this is happening, as you're sensing the person pull away?
• 25:24
  Speaker B: See, nobody. Nobody wants me. It's true. Nobody wants me. See, nobody picks me. I am unattractive. I am inadequate. I will be alone. Everybody else gets picked. I don't, you know, there is something wrong with me. Or, you see, things don't work out or. And sometimes it's even like, it could be even blamed. Like, the gay community is just so. And actually, I think this is true in some ways, but not in every single case. The gay community is so fickle, you know, and it's like, well, I'm part of the gay community. And I'm also fickle sometimes. So, like, you know, what else is there? I'm going to be single. I'm going to be single for the rest of my life. That's another one that used to come up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then also just, like, resentment, like, why. Why didn't this person get back to me? What, like, what an asshole. And probably the absence of, like, curiosity around. When I say why. It's less like, it's less like, I wonder why this person didn't get back to me back then. And more like, why the. Didn't this person get back to me, you know? And there's a difference in energy. One is like, curiosity and one is like, yeah, it's anger. And maybe understandably so, like, there's an innocence in that. You know, like, I understand where he was at at that time, the younger version of me.
• 26:51
  Speaker A: Okay, last. Last question, then I'll stop picking on you for this one. Okay, but again, going back to that previous. Previous version.
• 26:57
  Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:58
  Speaker A: What. What is your behavior in response to this? So you told us about your thoughts and your feelings, but what do you actually do? Do you lash out? Do you double down? Do you quietly quit yourself? Like, what do you do?
• 27:08
  Speaker B: All of those things? I mean, I've. I've definitely. I wouldn't say that I have. I don't. I don't think I lash out, but I definitely, like, call out. I don't. Well, it's subtle because my calling out is also calling in at that time. In some ways. I just think there's, like, a maybe less grace then than there is now, but it's like, I will. I will name it. You know, I will. I will name it. I will point it out. And I would usually inquire back then about. About what was happening, but I don't recall myself really lashing out so much as, like, inquiring. The, the distinction, though, is that, again, there was more charge and more energy wrapped up in what was happening back then than there is now. I just hold it all, like, so much more lightly than I did previously.
• 28:00
  Speaker A: Well, thank you, Reno, for playing along and playing our ad. That was really good. And, and what you said, by the way, oh, my gosh, about the not enough and that shame spiral. That is 100 me. And I bet there's a lot of people listening who are like, oh, yeah, that sounds familiar. So thank you for normalizing.
• 28:14
  Speaker B: I think you name this. But I'll say for our listeners, I. I don't know if you said this at the beginning but, you know, for those who are listening, like, my eyes were closed, and I really, like, tuned into my body and went to this place of a previous version of me. So if you are practicing this at home, the recommendation is, yeah, like, close your eyes, find a safe space, and. And take a moment to, like, get into your body and really get into that version of yourself.
• 28:41
  Speaker A: It's.
• 28:42
  Speaker B: It's actually quite cathartic, what I just did. So. Yeah.
• 28:44
  Speaker A: All right, let's talk to our fader, Matt. Okay. So same thing. I want you to think about maybe a time where you were the fader, and I'm gonna ask you some questions. Okay. Do you realize what you're doing, or does it just kind of happen?
• 28:58
  Speaker C: No, I realize what I'm doing.
• 29:00
  Speaker A: Yeah. What's going through your mind?
• 29:03
  Speaker B: I am.
• 29:04
  Speaker C: I'm feeling overwhelmed. I feel like the. Perhaps this person is, like, coming in too quickly, or there's an energy of, like, oh, I don't want them to like me. There's. There's a part of me that's looking for reasons, lots of reasons why I don't like this person, and I'm finding them. And I just. I just noticed that there's not the alignment that I need in order to want to pursue it further. But then there's the part inside of me that's really feeling like. Like I don't want to hurt them. Yeah.
• 29:37
  Speaker A: And what emotions are underneath all that? You can pick some emotions.
• 29:41
  Speaker C: I think self preservation is one of them for sure. For myself, maybe a bit of compassion in not wanting to hurt them. But then there's also part of me that's feeling guilty because I'm like, I should just be honest with them and not, like, kind of string them along.
• 29:57
  Speaker A: Okay. And what happens if you are confronted, if they say, hey, where have you been? What's going on? Why are you not talking to me?
• 30:04
  Speaker C: I would actually feel like it's a good thing. It's an invitation for me to be honest with them and just let them know, especially if they came at me with a bit of anger, because then my. My response. My anger response would get activated, and it would be easier for me to be honest when I'm feeling a bit sassy.
• 30:22
  Speaker A: Would you come at that response with anger or with kindness or what?
• 30:26
  Speaker C: I think it depends on how they came at me.
• 30:28
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 30:29
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 30:30
  Speaker A: Okay. Thank you. Good job, guys. How did that feel?
• 30:33
  Speaker C: Yeah, it felt good.
• 30:34
  Speaker A: So let's. Let's give each of you a chance to kind of talk about the other role. So. So, Matt, what Came up for you while Reno was kind of telling us what was going on in his mind as the. As the fadi anything.
• 30:45
  Speaker C: I've been there. I've been in his shoes before too. And I've been the one questioning, like, oh, is it something that I've done? Like, what did I do that made.
• 30:51
  Speaker A: Right.
• 30:52
  Speaker C: So the. It's the. That's the harsh part about the slow fade is you leave the person wondering and like stewing in their own insecurities. Whereas if you.
• 31:01
  Speaker A: Right.
• 31:01
  Speaker C: And usually people are going to go to the worst case scenario as opposed to the thing that might be for you. You might not want to hurt them, but it might not actually be a thing that's going to hurt them, but yet they're going to probably default to their worst case scenario. I'm not enough. I'm not worthy. They don't, you know, whatever it might be. So just a lot of empathy and yeah, yeah, I felt the humanness in it.
• 31:23
  Speaker A: If you have that internalized shame or not that not enough monster within you, it just loves these. These examples of like, oh, see, you know exactly how Reena said it, told you so.
• 31:34
  Speaker C: Right.
• 31:34
  Speaker A: Even though we don't know. Even though we don't know. That's why it'll use that as the reason. So, Rena, what about you? When Matt was telling us his. What came up for you?
• 31:42
  Speaker B: That's because what was so fun was watching how, like, when Matt started talking. So I, Well, I closed my eyes as well and I was listening. And I remember it was one of the first things you said. And like that part, you know, we talk about like the. The internalized shame. You said something and. And immediately I felt this, like, charge. And it was like, I'm too much. Right. Which is so interesting.
• 32:09
  Speaker C: And.
• 32:09
  Speaker B: But then. So I, I noticed it and I clocked it and I took a deep breath and then I continued to listen with more objectivity. And what was interesting is like from that place I started to kind of see, like, oh, like so much of this is not, like, Is not about me, you know, And I think that's the trap that we can sometimes fall into, especially being the. What did you call it? The. The what am I? The fatty. Yeah. Is like, yeah, we're left in that sort of silence and we're stewing. And what it does is, you know, sometimes we find ourselves spiraling in what is our own stories and our own narratives about. About ourselves. So it's weird because in this really weird way, it's kind of medicinal and shadow work. But it's also like fucked up in some ways too, because it's like. No, I want you to tell me, you know, so it's, It's a really weird thing. And again, like we, you know, we've. It sounds like we've all been on the fady side of things and it does suck. And also it has really helped me sit with myself and what it brings up. And this is not me encouraging that we do this, y'. All. I think we should maybe reach out to each other again. It's case by case, but it's allowed me to sit with the stories that come up when I experience fading, ghosting, rejection, et cetera. Right. What is it? What wounds is it touching on and how can I reconcile with those? And how is this an opportunity to do that? But then on the faders end, there's also work to be done there because it's like, okay, what is your work to be in the practice of leaning in to the, the discomfort and challenging some of the stories on your end that would cause you to not reach out to a person, you know? Yeah. And this is a powerful practice too. Thanks, Michael. Like, this was really amazing to embody this. Yeah.
• 34:12
  Speaker A: What, what I hope it does for the viewers and listeners is it certainly did for me is create empathy for both sides and compassion for both sides. Because it's not, it's not malicious. Right. It's. It's rarely malicious that, that I've, that I've seen. It's just like a self preservation. It's. It's avoiding discomfort. It's a fear. Like there's. There's fear on one end and there's shame and inadequacy other end. Like there's just. We're. There's a lot of emotions happening here. And this thing that we can easily tell the story to either put the other person down or put ourselves down is rarely, that's rarely the reason. So hopefully people. You guys did such a good job with this. Hopefully people who are listening now have a better understanding of what might be going through the other person's mind.
• 34:52
  Speaker B: I'll share one more thing too, which is, I remember I was hanging out with a girlfriend one time and she says to me, we were talking and she said to me, she's like, you've probably broken a lot of hearts in your time, Reno. And she said it and it was so weird because I was like. It had never occurred to me that I, that I could break anybody's heart, you know, because in. At that time and in that state, I was just like, no, I'm the one whose heart gets broken all the time. Like, I'm. I'm the one who doesn't get picked. Right? Like, that's. That was the story. But it's like what it did was had me kind of be a bit more reflective and think, like, oh, you know, I have disappointed some people. I have been the fader. I have been the ghoster. And also, like, you know, for those of you listening, you don't want everybody and everybody doesn't want you. And, like, that was a powerful lesson for me. You know, it's like, where am I missing that? I'm also not into everybody. So why isn't it okay for someone to not be into me? You know, that. That was. That was really significant because it. It kind of took me off the hook as, like, a victim. I was like, I'm. I'm not a victim. You know, I also don't want everybody who's interested in me.
• 36:08
  Speaker A: Yeah, I think we've all. I mean, at least the three of us have been on both sides of it, and I'm sure our viewers totally can think of that too. All right, for our audience listening out there, another question for you guys. You can pop this in the comments as well. Do you think slow fading is socially acceptable, or do you think people deserve an explanation? And how do you decide? Let us know. So put that in the comments if you're watching us on YouTube. And guys, a lot of the patterns we've been talking about here in slow fading, avoidance, fear of conflict, people pleasing, communication. These are exactly the things that we explore within the coaching collection. For those of you who don't know, our coaching collection is our library of coaching videos, tools, and two courses that are built around four key. Confidence, body positivity, community, and relationships. This topic specifically speaks to the relationship relationships pathway, where we have 23 lessons on video, including specific to this content, five steps to having a hard conversation, four communication habits that kill connection, clear communication, understanding your ego and Emotional Intelligence 101. That's just to name a few. So you can explore all these videos at your own pace. Plus our two courses, healing your shame and building better relationships. And you get lifetime access. And it's all created by us and made specifically for gay men. So if you're interested in getting lifetime access to our coaching collection, go to gaymengoingdeeper.com all right, now that we've talked about why we slow played and you guys did such a good job illustrating what it feels like on Both sides. Let's get into our final question, which is, is there a better way? And if so, what do you recommend? Reno.
• 37:51
  Speaker B: Yeah, there. There is. And. And I spoke to it. I spoke to it previously, and I guess I'll come back to it because, you know, it's like this visionary soul. I often reflect on a world that, you know, this idea of a world that works for. For all, for everyone. And it's like, you know, what does that look like in this situation? And I think it looks like doing work like we do here, having conversations like we do in the gay men's brotherhood and. And, you know, and doing the inner work to arrive at a place where we. And I was going to mention this earlier. It's coming back to me now. Capacity is a word that I have been playing with. Capacity and attunement are two words I've been playing with a lot. And, you know, my vision is that we become attuned through this, through work like this. So much so that we develop the capacity for these uncomfortable conversations that. That, you know, add up to, as I said previously, the quality of our life. You know, I'll state that quote again. The quality of our life, you know, it's determined by the number of uncomfortable conversations we're willing to have. And uncomfortable conversations, while uncomfortable, can be had. The more attuned we are and the greater our capacity to hold the tension and the friction that comes up when we're having them. And I mean, that's like. That's for life, you know, as we work, as we do the work, as we develop and expand and extend our capacity, we're able to hold more of life at large. And so I think that includes, you know, that includes this here. So that. That would be. That would be my answer. And also just to, like, be kind to yourself, because I know. I know that, like, given what I just heard between Matt and I, like, it wasn't, you know, when I was playing the fade and Matt was playing the fader, what was quite clear was that it wasn't malicious, you know, and so, you know, may we be gentle with ourselves and each other as we navigate the trickiness of relationships. You know, it is hard. And I think the degree to which I extend myself grace, the degree to which I'm able to extend the other grace. But if I'm just, like, shitting on myself and feeling all this, like, crazy shame and stuff about the experience I'm having, I'm not even going to get to the point where I can have the conversation with Them and, and, and meet them with grace, you know, because I've already been so unkind to myself for having the experience I'm having, which is totally okay, you know, it's normal. Yeah.
• 40:43
  Speaker A: Yeah. Well said. Matt, what about you? Is there a better way? If so, what is it?
• 40:48
  Speaker C: Yeah, it's kind of a complex question. I think just to answer it, like practically, I would say just maybe communicating misalignment. Like I'm trying to think of this guy. I still probably wouldn't feel comfortable like calling out his alcoholism because I feel like it was very vulnerable for him to share that with me.
• 41:02
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 41:03
  Speaker C: So I think maybe just saying, you know, let a day pass and then just say, hey, you know what? Like, I'm not really feeling the alignment that I need to feel or the chemistry that I need to feel and then leaving it more of like a broad statement, you know, so. But I do think, you know, to answer my question earlier, at what point does someone deserve an existence explanation? I kind of. I want to. I want to be the type of person that always provides an explanation, but it doesn't necessarily always have to be a detailed explanation. It can be.
• 41:30
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 41:30
  Speaker C: And then there's something else I wanted to note too, is just tying attachment styles into this because we do a lot of teaching on attachment styles and we have our quiz and stuff. So people that recognize themselves in anxious, you'd be more end up being more the fade. And people in the more the avoidance, you'd be more the fader. And I want to just say, like, is there a better way? Well, yeah, like work on attachment trauma, work on healing. So then that way you won't be the person that comes in and is smothering and is so needy. In relationships where the person feels the need to fade you and then the fader work on. On tolerating emotion, work on emotion regulation as an avoidant person. Work on how to have big emotions so you can deal with conflict and these sorts of things. And then that will make you not worse. Want to fade people as much. And then people in the disorganized, you're going to ping pong back and forth. Which is why I can relate to both Reno and I. I've been faded and I've also been the fadee. So. Yeah, it's just interesting.
• 42:28
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So well said. And we also have another video in the coaching collection about attachment style. So it's so important. It really speaks to so many of these things we talk about in anything on the topic of relationships. But I guess the one thing I'd add, you guys both had really good points. The one thing I'd add that I do for myself is to ask if I'm in the fader role. Why? Why? Like, get really clear on what is my reason for, like, is it. Is it a misalignment? Is it. It's not fun anymore? Is it. I'm not attracted to them. Like, whatever it is, just be honest with yourself. You don't need to give them this explanation by any means. But it's really important, I think, that I'm aware of my reason why. Was it that we just didn't click? Was it just. Just know that for yourself, I think. And the next question I would ask myself is, okay, do I like my reason? Or is this just an opportunity perhaps, to get even closer with this person? Especially if it's a friend. Right. It forces you to name whatever that issue is that's going on. Whereas sometimes, I think so often we feel a feeling, we don't really question it, and then we just act and we cut people off prematurely and does not give us an opportunity to potentially repair, have a conversation, develop a closer bond. And I've seen so many people prematurely abandon friendships, budding friendships that could be solved with just a conversation just to say, hey, you know, here's what I'm feeling. What's coming up for you, and just being very honest with it. Sure, maybe it still might end up, you know, not working out, but it might end up where they say, hey, you know what? I'm feeling the same way. Here's what I need. What do you need? And then, voila, we're back on. We're back online. And not only are we back online, but we've connected even deeper, and we're closer. So that's. My advice is ask yourself, why. What do you. What is it? A need you're. You're missing? What is it? And then if it's a friend, especially, or someone that. That you. That is important to you, go ahead and have the courage to communicate that.
• 44:17
  Speaker C: Yeah. And sometimes it might not even be the reason we think it is. Maybe like, oh, they're. They annoy me. Or we have these different. These. These reasons, but maybe there's a subconscious fear of intimacy. We're afraid of. Of things getting a little too serious. So we fade people out because. Right. So be willing to look at yourself in a bit of a deeper lens, scratch the surface of the reason and see if there's something beneath it. And what that would likely be is a pattern if you see a pattern and you're doing it, the pattern will indicate the subconscious thing. It's like a fear of intimacy will show up because it's happening over and over and over again.
• 44:51
  Speaker A: Right.
• 44:51
  Speaker C: Like avoidant. Avoidant. People are really good at fault finding.
• 44:55
  Speaker A: Right.
• 44:56
  Speaker C: They'll look for the faults in people. So if you're always hyper critical of everyone and their faults, it's probably a subconscious fear of intimacy that is. Or a fear of abandonment or whatever it might be that's underlying the surface.
• 45:09
  Speaker A: Yeah, there's. There's so much gold in that question in. In the why, you know, is it, like, novelty thing? In which case, what are you looking for? Are you. Are you looking for true friendship or are you just looking for the dopamine? Hit of the match and having the chat for a little while there. There's so much here. And if you're the fadee, I will say this. I know that there's fadies out there who are like, oh, I'm gonna go make that guy tell me. But no, no, no, it doesn't work that way. You can't force people to tell you. You can ask. It's well within your right to say, hey, I'm feeling you, like, pull away about what's going on. I think that's great. But you cannot make them tell you. And I can just tell there's people out there who are gonna go do that. So, you know, you can't make them change their mind. You can't convince them. And I'm not encouraging you to convince anyone to. To. To like you more or to spend more time with you, but I think it's well within your right to ask, hey, this is what I'm noticing and feeling that you're pulling away. Is there something going on? You want to talk about it?
• 46:02
  Speaker B: And I almost want to say to, like, that older version of myself and anyone who's there right now or resonates, like, you're great, you know, and. And you, to be honest, like, you'll look back and recognize that you. You probably didn't really want that. Like, you thought you wanted that person and you kind of wanted them in the moment, but the reality is, like, it more. I was going to say better things, but more aligned things are, you know, are. Are coming. You have. You have no idea what is in store for you, you know, and so, like, yeah, feel it. Let it go. Keep it pushing. There's just, like, good things are coming, you know, better things are coming.
• 46:47
  Speaker A: What a beautiful, optimistic way to end the episode. Reno. Anything else you'd want to add there, Matt? All right, well thank you Matt and Reno for another lovely episode. It's so nice to have our little trio back. It's been a while since we've recorded this. I want to thank our viewers and listeners for sticking around with with us for this episode. And if you're watching us on YouTube, now is a great time. Time to tap that thanks button and support the Gay Men's Brotherhood and Gay Men Going Deeper podcast. By the way, if you are can't wait to listen to the next episode, go ahead and subscribe to early access on Apple Podcasts to listen ad free and gain access to episodes about three weeks before they are released to the public. All of your support helps us to continue making content for you and supporting our community. So we thank you so much in advance and we really hope to meet you and see you at our next event. Check out gaiman'sbrotherhood.com See you guys later.