Latest / Unstuck Pod / Fix the Core Experience (Arseniy Nazarenko and Jamie Schneiderman)
Transcript
- Jamie: Hi everyone, welcome to the Unstuck Pod. very excited today to have Arsene Nazarenko with And ⁓ what I want to do is I'm gonna pass it over to Arseni and ⁓ let him tell you more about his journey ⁓ and business and everything from there better coming from him than from me. So welcome. Arseniy Nazarenko: Okay, nice to meet you, Jamie. Thank you for inviting me. my current position, I'm CEO of mobile gaming company that creating mobile games. my journey was more than twenty years ⁓ in game industry. I like director of film, that was my my education, and then I jumped to the game industry and starting like game designer, ⁓ then to the producer, then product manager, CEO and co-owner for now. We create created many mobile PC Xbox different games but what I'm doing now ⁓ and what the different problems and issues I I ⁓ faced it I starting behave like a CEO. it's it's really a lot of ⁓ thing from my previous career like producer. we now create ⁓ ship it ⁓ a interesting I think and very complex mobile game. ⁓ It's ⁓ earned more than two million dollars in lifetime. it's original niche ⁓ merch three games. without any revolts, competition, just relaxing, decoration. It's ⁓ most ⁓ our audience is the woman woman from thirty-five to sixty-five and more ⁓ sometimes so it's about American dream. ⁓ name of this project is Travel Merch. ⁓ the plot is that you receive the family receives ⁓ huge wheel just for one dollar. And they need to solve the mystery why. And only year of the playing you start to understand ⁓ it's happened. ⁓ ⁓ so it's you growing the kids, you ⁓ furniture the wheel, ⁓ solve the mystery, who was previous owner and why he did this. for example, mom, ⁓ they think that she in hidden TV show, father think that it's just a social experiment, and but keys find some clues. some strange and fantastic devices in this villa. So this is a project with long LTV, with live ops. this project lives years. It's not like one-time game. And it's ⁓ demand different approach to the game because you need to support this game years. for now it's like more than one to two million dollars game earned it, ⁓ but scale this game, just face it, the the problem it's cost per install ⁓ to growing up more and more ⁓ for now it's ⁓ if we want to go more user acquisition we just ⁓ it's ruined our ROAS return of ⁓ investment so is not a metric this alignment between product monetization and acquisition and what the our solution what we find it Of of course we tried many, many different sources, different ⁓ campaigns, run, different ⁓ creatives, but everything ⁓ is the face it with this this wall. if you go ⁓ you just stuck. and the revenue goes So that's interesting ⁓ situation. I never it before because I was just like a producer, you know. But w we find a solution. So solution of this was just ⁓ create second project. that's ⁓ go out of the board of the niche, out of the board of gameplay. for first test we we ran at first test couple months ago and it showed us very interesting possibility to attract audience ⁓ is other from other niche. not just from this but from other that give us possibility to scale ⁓ more and more this project. ⁓ ⁓ we run some experiments like we put ⁓ merge audience to the dark setting. We combine merch and farm plus idle. Nobody it before. And ⁓ test that it's incredible interest from audience. That's because it's something new. and it was risk risk you're doing something ⁓ new in a game industry, you every time ⁓ put yourself and your company ⁓ at risk. If you do just like a cliche, like many games did, it's like more safe way, but it's just you you you will stay on under under underground on the game on this pyramid. Only top ⁓ top games usually have something. You. That's ⁓ what we can say. so my role, if you ask me about my role, my role it's between the product analysis, monetization, and business strategy. so I game designing, I'm still ⁓ in my soul game designer, but I need to to ⁓ also take some task for business strategy, for monetization, for roadmap, for analysis. for budgeting and et cetera, et cetera, and et cetera. So on ⁓ metric analytics is also part of my job. different game design problems I can solve and help the team to to find the best solution and create the conception in parallel with the direction and other processes of the company. So that's my role when I'm Jamie: Wow, so I mean listen, so you have you have a lot going on, obviously. I think it goes without saying ⁓ me ⁓ I want to go back to the challenge ⁓ the business, because I think it's ⁓ an interesting one, and it's ⁓ unique many wa well, I don't know if it's unique to the game industry. Some of the things that are in the game industry are quite unique, but i are ⁓ i it Is your focus on a go forward basis? Do you see Where do you see greater revenue growth from increase in revenue per user ⁓ ⁓ new users ⁓ on board? And and I mean it like and the And I appreciate that it it could be both, but I'm trying to figure out is it can you can you grow rapidly through your current base, which is a very specific target of ⁓ customer target, versus you really have to attract a different or ICP. ⁓ Arseniy Nazarenko: first problem with when you wanna scale some product is the cost of each new customer. If you attract 10,000 customers is the one cost. But if you want to attract 100,000, it's increasing. If you want to attract ⁓ million, cost of each customer increases more and more greatly. And Jamie: Yeah. Arseniy Nazarenko: sometimes you face it with the problem that you reach ⁓ the that you can attract. More, you need to pay more, and it's ⁓ not for you. the new give us possibility, first of all, ⁓ make the installs, so customers, let's say, cheaper. Why? Because it's something new. If you just see like very, very similar advertising every time. You see the the games like made by one cliche, it's it's not attract a lot of people. But if you see something new, something let's say you never see it before, you know, ⁓ so it's it's attract more players. In this case, the cost of installs decreasing and give us ⁓ more room for scaling in this case. Of course, second that ⁓ you mentioned is the Players when they come into in you and find some new mechanics in the game. They they retention they make us for ⁓ better retention because they stay in a game. so but how I said is the risky every time. much more safety, just make the clone of the game or successful game. That's how most of the companies behave. They just make a lot of clones. They find some successful game and then try to clone you, cloning, cloning. But each clon ⁓ yes, yes, yeah. Yeah. But every time when you try to invent something new, you're in risk. Of course the proportions should be. So let's say for me, let's 70% it should be something recognizable in a game, but 30% it should be something new. Jamie: V G V two, V three, V four, that kind of thing. Sequels. Yeah, okay. New Arseniy Nazarenko: that can give new experience for players, ⁓ feelings, ⁓ new that's first of all can reduce ⁓ the cost of the ⁓ each customer and the second one it can hold players in a game. Jamie: And and where do people where do people get the game? Is it it's ⁓ so w where are they getting it from? One of the app stores or ⁓ Arseniy Nazarenko: Yes, it's App Store and Google Play is the most stores in the world. Jamie: Yeah. And and your advertising. So When you're advertising there, you're advertising I so so it's interesting because what you're describing for me, like a lot of times when I work with companies, the idea is you know, same. You actually want to find something that works then repeat it if you want it to grow. Like that's the idea. And a lot of founders struggle because they want something ⁓ and different. In your case, you're describing a world where that it doesn't work the same way, that you have to do new. or sorry. Arseniy Nazarenko: It works, it works, but it's ⁓ until you do something like one hundred clone. It's every new clone is the discrease the interest of the player. ⁓ players. Is every new clone is the let's say more empty product. More empty and more empty you know, use clones if you clone in of the clone you r you will lose something every time. Jamie: Yeah. Yeah. Arseniy Nazarenko: That's why. yeah. ⁓ In a regular business, I know, so if you find some that works, you need to increase this and make the same and make the same, but also you need to take in account the changing market. you f ⁓ just forget about the changing market and not not adjust your business, not adjust your approach to the new reality, you will lose also. It's also the same. the same like like we have in the game industry when you need to see how the different revolts and different games, how they attract the players, how they new game mechanics appear every time, new something. And I'm not say we just totally different invention something. It's really hard to invent something totally new in a game industry. ⁓ We combine ⁓ something that not nobody combined it before. Let's say Jamie: Yes. Arseniy Nazarenko: Dark setting in merge games, it's something new. combination farm plus merge, it's also something new. ⁓ that's usually successful games appear. For example, very popular game Clash of Clans, when you know it's like billion dollars earned it, ⁓ they c combine it just two different genres in one, and that's was ⁓ Like something new invention, but it's was just a combination. Jamie: So I'm trying to so so let me ask let me go back a second. So you've so you've decided that your advertising and the work that you've done on the base game, which by the way, when you talk about two million dollars, is great. Like it's not there's nothing that's nothing to be to scoff at or not be proud of. I think that's awesome. ⁓ so to me, that's really great. ⁓ what I'm trying to figure out is How do you so here's actually a different question. How do you know you're capped out in that game? How do you know that there isn't a different way that you could or a different way to reach a broader audience related to that game by taking a different approach to marketing it, to promoting it, whatever that is? I I'm just trying to, I'm trying to under I'm not questioning you. I'm trying to understand you know that that is the case and that you've done everything you can there and that it is about. creating something new or different or building around that, which we've talked about. Arseniy Nazarenko: First of all, growing it's not like the door that is locket and that's all. Yes, of course you can jump over this barrier, ⁓ but demand like new level of investments, new level of company. Of course we can, I don't know, joined to some big publisher company and they have a lot of new sources, they have a lot of new instruments just ⁓ attracting players from their games. to our ⁓ just like popular is popularizing the brand and receive a lot of organics so a lot of different instruments have exist that can give ⁓ possibilities set to such games ⁓ scaling more but i'm talking about the ⁓ our our current let's say processes that we small company we have self publishing let's say so we approach ⁓ approach it our our let's say possi to to scale this game. so next should we attract something something new with trip or just huge capital ⁓ or join the big publisher ⁓ or just something else. ⁓ Much more for us this decision was just starting new game. Jamie: So there's no Yeah. No, no, and I'm and I'm and I'm ⁓ so so i I just finding it fascinating 'cause ⁓ you're talking about so there's more dollars and then there's you mentioned Roas, right? So it's it's is there an efficiency? Arseniy Nazarenko: Yes, yes. It's the cost of the cost of the install. There's very highlight for you and ⁓ let's say CP ⁓ CPI of course and it means the how many ⁓ money ⁓ bring to you during all his life, for example, and if this number will be ⁓ let's say more or equal to the CPI, ⁓ you you you just ⁓ earn it nothing you just earn it zero. So it should be ⁓ delta should be margin every time and only in this case ⁓ you can you can ⁓ your business you can ⁓ earn the revenue that's just how ⁓ how we that we are very very close to the maximum it's just ⁓ CPI and ROAS see that ROAS increased it in Monses Jamie: You're right. Arseniy Nazarenko: more and more if we just buy ⁓ more ⁓ installs with the more ⁓ high prices. That's Jamie: No, no, and and okay, so so no no, this is great. So so let's let's leap forward because I what I'd like to do is you have a very successful game. You're you've introduced a second very successful to me or at least early days, hopefully very successful game. so what what this look like three years from now? Like a you know, w where do you see it going to what do you wanna be with where do you wanna take the business and the games? I know you're like living it every day and trying to make it work, but like where do you see it going? Arseniy Nazarenko: first of all, I'm not think that ⁓ my game now it's really very successful. ⁓ my previous game is Evermerge when I work like lead game designer. That was really successful game because in the best time it's earned it ⁓ five dollars per month. That's ⁓ different of the success. But yes, it's not let's say not bad game, it's normal game. Jamie: Okay. Arseniy Nazarenko: And I hope my next game will be much more successful. ⁓ really ⁓ really really hard question how I see it ⁓ after this three years. So I think the most of important or most of challenging for me was not the reach of the the success, but the ⁓ hardest part is was the keeping the team aligning during period of unstable metrics, unstable long development cycle. That's was challenging, not loss the team in in in small ⁓ startup because ⁓ it's it's really hard to work with the uncertainty. It's really hard to hire somebody in a project that it's not ⁓ r ⁓ generate revenue yet, for example. Yeah. So that was from my perspective, much more challenging from these three years. also, yeah, some some new ⁓ for me spheres ⁓ ⁓ product management from level, this also was new and it's a very, very valuable experience what I received. Jamie: And so, okay, so but you you got the team to buy in. You got the team to stick around. And now and I and and I hear you. Okay, so the the game is not as successful as successful as you could see it. ⁓ and and but it but it you've generated meaningful revenue, very meaningful revenue. A lot of companies don't ever get there, and you're on to second project easier to get folks to go down the path on the second project. ⁓ than it was on the first one because they've seen it and now it's how do we make it better? Is that is that sort of your view? Arseniy Nazarenko: Yes. ⁓ first of all, ⁓ I I don't know the exact statistics, but I know that most of the startups not reach even launch. They it during the ⁓ production. Most ⁓ of the who launched the game and ⁓ ⁓ any profit. And most of the game, I don't know the percentage again, what we see on the markets now. They can't support the team. They just trying to attract investment. They try just ⁓ doing something. But we have product that support our team now. We on a self-maintaining, that's very important. ⁓ that's ⁓ give us possibility to say that we successful company now. but yeah, ⁓ next project, of course. Jamie: Yeah. Arseniy Nazarenko: can be better, can be easier because the I now I have experience, I have experienced a team, I have already proved project, and we have processes already stabilized it. it's also really important to stabilize to to create the processes inside the team, how the communications between artists and developers and testers and game designers It's also of the part that ⁓ building building successful ⁓ team that can create produ pro product products. Jamie: Yeah, no, and it sounds to me like your personal challenge here, if I had to do it, was there's building the product or focusing on what is there, and that's in in on your experience, easier or at least more straightforward than all the other pieces, only because they're new and complicated and you add people and change and other things in terms of that. So it's the it's the expansion of what you've done, which is probably stretching you. And and much further than you ever were before, which is a great it's good for you for having been able to go there. Cause not easy for everyone to do it. Right. Not everyone can shift from I understand how to create something like this to can actually run a whole team and company doing it. So that's good. That's great. ⁓ so where can people, where can folks find you? So how do they find you or how do they find the game or the Arseniy Nazarenko: ⁓ of course ⁓ it's it's easy. You just just can go to the App Store or Google Play and ⁓ type in travel merge family or an our new product, I can now say the name, it's Dark Merge Farm. Dark Merge Farm, but it's ⁓ now ⁓ on development and it's restricted in ⁓ some countries. So it's like close or ⁓ version. It's not ready. we have a plan to ship it ⁓ on ⁓ this ⁓ the on the end of this year. Jamie: Okay. Okay. Good. All right. Well w well, this podcast will be live before it ships, but but it'll be something for folks to look at. So we'll we'll we'll add ⁓ we will add links into the description. and can people if someone wants to connect with you for ⁓ one or another, they see an opportunity to work together or work with you or something, what's a good way to reach you? Arseniy Nazarenko: Just best way is the LinkedIn. I have the profile in LinkedIn and anybody can roll the message for me. Jamie: Awesome. is there any any final advice you wanna share with anybody? Arseniy Nazarenko: I think maybe one advice I can give somebody who wants to create the games. so from perspective, from my experience, sometimes right decision was not adding more features in the game, but simplifying and fixing a core experience. That's very important. Many studios just care about the how the game looks like. But I think the best games should be care about player experience first of all. That's important. Jamie: I love it. No, I love it. And by the way, it's consistent. Interestingly, it while you might think or one might think it's different in businesses, it's the same idea. Too many companies focus on features instead of delivering or the core problem that they've set out to fix. In your case, it's the, you know. you talk about the core experience for somebody or for the user. That's amazing. So I that that's the way to go. Anyway, thank you very much for your time, Arseni. It's been great to have you on. And ⁓ to everybody who's watching and listening until next time, thanks so much. Arseniy Nazarenko: Thank you.