Latest / Authentic Living / Doing Change Right and the ROR: Return On Relationships (Part II) with Dr. Loubna Noureddin

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Doing Change Right and the ROR: Return On Relationships (Part II) with Dr. Loubna Noureddin · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
• 0:08
  things that really matter in our lives.
• 0:11
  And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
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  Interview last week was so good that we decided to turn it into a 2 part series.
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  If you missed last week, you'll find the link in the show notes.
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  It's not mandatory that you listen, but we wanna make sure that you don't miss out on this
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  amazing conversation.
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  Hi, everyone.
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  It's Roxanne Durgesh.
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  Nice for you to be here with us again today.
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  I'm with, colleague and a friend, Doctor Lubna Louraden.
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  Of MindMarket.
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  She is the co founder and CEO of MindMarket.
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  Lumina has, been doing some special work out there in, the world of organizational
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  consultancy.
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  So, Lubna, thanks so much for being here with us today.
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  Absolutely.
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  It is my delight and pleasure to be with you Roxanne.
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  Because, I mean, we were already hearing so much about quiet quitting.
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  I don't think it's going to be so quiet if people often are being told, they have to come
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  back to work.
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  So I think in the first quarter, of 2023, it will be interesting to see, like you said, in
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  reference to needs and wants, an overall kind of you know, goals for the company, and trying
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  to find the balance.
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  Like, some environments I to your point, some employees wanna go back to work.
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  They've, you know, they've they're recognizing that they, you know, they're They're better.
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  They're more productive.
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  They need the connection, and others are better, like you said, based on, the stage and
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  age of, you know, where they are an at in their lives, it may be that the hybrid model works,
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  and so others just would prefer to be virtual.
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  It's it's up to the the senior leadership team and the CEO, like you're saying, to make those
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  decisions.
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  But there's a bit of pressure now that people are saying hearing all most companies are
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  saying that people need to get back to work.
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  And so I think that will be interesting to see how that shakes out because is it that people
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  are gonna, you know, like the Elon Musk's of the world that we've been seeing on Twitter
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  where he's telling people to go back and then and, you know, the press that he's getting you
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  know, hopefully people are recognizing, some of the things that you're saying, which is, you
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  know, you may have, you know, a multimillion dollar investment that you need to protect.
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  But if you're not thinking about, you know, the cross section of what's in front of you,
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  percentage wise, in reference to needs and wants, of your, you know, your diverse
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  population, then then what?
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  Right?
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  The investment, or the return or the loss may be that much more dramatic long term if you're
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  not kind of looking at what's really in front of you.
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  You know, absolutely, Roxanne, and and holding the conversation, having the space making the
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  space for these conversations to happen.
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  It's it's a time consuming, Support system.
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  However, it's so important because then you understand your own team and your unique needs
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  for this organization.
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  I think a balance might be a great recipe for some.
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  It's not necessarily the best thing for all.
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  However, holding open conversations with staff, allowing people to identify and feel the loss,
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  let them express the loss of whatever they had, the habits they are used to, And to your point,
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  it's it's important to have, to go back to the office and to have these relationships happen.
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  It is not important across the board.
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  Some people thrive in being alone, and some people thrive in being in groups, and how can
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  we create the balance for both?
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  It's it's not an easy situation.
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  However, it is, easily recognizable by having conversations with your teams, understanding
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  their needs, their wants, and their limitations, and their fears.
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  Some of my fears may not be valid to you, but at least understanding them and holding that
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  space would help you shift forward.
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  With decisions that make sense for all.
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  You know, it's interesting as I listen to you and you talk about with change, What's left
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  behind is the most important thing to be addressed.
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  Right?
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  And if you think about, you know, with, COVID and still we have this lingering into 2023
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  about uncertainty, the economic environment.
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  So some people that may not wanna go back are thinking, geez, I better get back there
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  because, you know, I'm worried about the fact that, the economy is not so good, all those
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  things, But, you know, I I think about, when I was in consulting and we would make changes,
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  within 72 hours.
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  It was a trauma response model we would use where we would have people on-site.
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  So we let's say, you know, myself as the, would know that there was a, there was a layoff
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  coming, and then we would be available.
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  And it was so valuable, and with because within 24 hours we were on the environment.
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  We we deployed teams to go in.
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  And all they were, they they make these announcements.
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  The companies that were in the know, I should say, not all of them.
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  And we we would have people just tell them about, you know, the basics, you know, how
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  you're thinking, how you're feeling, how you're experiencing your body, is normal and natural
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  because, you know, you just kinda be incised to wiped here, and now you no longer have a job,
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  kind of thing, but it's it's that tending that really and then of course, along with that,
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  there would be all placement services and such, those types of things.
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  But that was very, very valuable because I see, you know, because people were being cared for.
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  Right?
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  They were no longer with the company, but at least you're saying to them, we understand, and
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  I think you're also if you're letting people kind of may, you know, go, you're also these
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  are people, that have worked for you for a very long time.
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  They are also ambassadors to that change, whether they wanna be gone or not, they're
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  going out there in the world, and maybe they may go on to other companies.
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  And then they are the ones that
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  are gonna talk about that experience of how they were treated even at the end.
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  No.
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  No.
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  And many companies Roxanne are paying the price of exactly that this new generation have seen
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  their parents laid off after years years years of unwavering commitment to their companies.
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  They've seen the lack of loyalty from the employer to the employee, and now they have
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  zero loyalty.
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  They do not it doesn't mean that they don't care.
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  They care.
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  Absolutely care, but they've seen how disappointing the experiences of their parents
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  have been.
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  And now they wanna change that.
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  I they're looking out for what is best for them, what is quality work, what is a work life
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  balance, and they will not stop until they find that quality life that they're seeking, not
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  because they're not loyal, but because they have learned by observing the experiences of
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  their parents that taking care of me first matters they've seen the disappointment,
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  they've seen the pain, and they've seen the loss.
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  There's many layoffs that have happened where the employee is fifty or above and still could
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  not find a job and had to go to lesser work because of ageism and sexism and all kinds of
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  isms that are out there.
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  Right?
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  But this new kid on the block will refuse to be set by your ways and would rather find their
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  way and their quality of life.
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  So how do we make that possible and gosh and validate those people that are great talent out
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  there because they're not believing in loyalty anymore.
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  And we get this to
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  and that, I mean, and most of us in our generation, we just kinda stayed.
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  Like, I mean, I I, in my corporate one of them makes for our corporate experiences.
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  I was, severed.
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  And I re you know, it's interesting.
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  Right?
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  You, you know, I worked for this company.
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  And, and, you know, at the time talking about it from the personal experience and Lula, I had
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  been with I love this company at the time that I was with them, enjoyed it profusely.
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  Like, but at the end, I was at the point where I wanted to get out, but it was, you know,
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  busyness and young family, those types of things.
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  And, there was a there was a finally another act there's this was a, like, a, out and out,
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  acquisition, and the value alignments of the company that I belonged to didn't fit.
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  So, you know, within 2 years, you'd know this best 72% of the acquired company, the employees
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  are gone.
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  And I was at the top one of the top levels.
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  So I was one of the first of the top to go.
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  Of course.
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  The lucky one.
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  I've never experienced that.
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  I can tell you that story.
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  Like, it's
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  yesterday.
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  Absolutely.
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  Absolutely.
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  And I'm like, you know, I remember, you know, walking towards the, you know, office old
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  glass.
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  I I thought it was a performance evaluation and then, you know, being told, you know, that you
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  know, there's been a decision, blah, blah, blah, you know, whatever words.
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  And the, you know, the corporate person the executive understood, but the the person rocks
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  and went, what?
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  What's happening here?
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  And then you don't have a laptop.
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  You don't have a cell phone.
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  You You don't, you know, all the You're gone.
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  That person You're an offer.
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  Walk in to the corporate left, and I I didn't have a cell phone.
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  You know, and, and I'll never forget it.
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  And I thought, well, how I how am I gonna call anybody?
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  Because all I'd had it was a corporate cell phone, and that's just bringing it down to the
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  basics.
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  I remember having stopping at a friend so I could use the phone because then in fact, I had
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  to go get a go out and get another cell phone.
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  So I that person I thought that is so fitting me on what you're saying.
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  It's one that ever is left and and the I'm gonna use the word shrapnel associated with
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  change and how you treat people based on on change management, you know, and I could still
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  remember, and I will probably remember it for the rest of my days, how I felt at that time.
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  Was very, very key, you know, as, you know, and I'm we're talking a long time ago now, but the
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  person, you know, tending to the internal space of that person is so very key.
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  And and going back to that, Roxanne, I can assure you that, I know the the tour student
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  who just graduated and did have a whole research on how much of emotional intelligence
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  is being taught in change management progress, and it's very small.
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  So, her study is very interesting because she, she compared the AI levels of change management
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  professionals, and we're talking over a 100 professionals with their professionals.
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  So and the the AI was no different.
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  And that relationship building that trust that influencing are critical indicators during
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  change.
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  So I think the change management organization is actually working with international coaching
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  federation, and other protocols to create more of that human side of the business.
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  And I think that it's important to bring it back to the human because I can assure you, I
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  talk in my speech in my keynote about superficial compliance.
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  And superficial compliance and look good on the outside, but it's really detrimental to the
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  organization on the long run because we resist superficial compliance and resistant comes in
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  three ways.
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  People escape, they quit, get out, get me out of here, people start to fight, So it's a fight
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  mode, compete against each other, not working as a team, and creating the silos and control
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  hoarders of information, like people that hoard information, all these are signs of superficial
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  compliance.
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  And the third one is they quietly reside.
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  In this case, they're in the company, they're masking their resistance behind masks with a
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  file and acceptance, and yet they've already quit and mentally way before they quit
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  physically.
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  Superficial compliance is a dangerous result of throwing change after change after change with
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  no regard to the human side of the business.
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  Now on
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  a positive note with all of these things we're talking about, For any senior leaders of CEOs
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  listening, and they're thinking, I'm in the deep end of the pool, and I'm not surety sure I
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  have a life raft.
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  What what are some of the simple things that they should start thinking about or doing now
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  because we we still have time potentially for, you know, before we we start into the new year.
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  Based on some plans that they may have for people to return to work.
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  We have amazing CEOs out there that are doing the right things.
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  All the right things, right?
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  And for one that I heard from CEO of Microsoft, which incredibly resonated with me.
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  I heard him speak to an interview on Harvard Business.
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  On LinkedIn.
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  It was live on LinkedIn, and he said, empathy is a core competency that he looks for in
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  leadership, in future leadership.
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  So whenever he's hiring, or whenever he is promoting empathy is one aspect of leadership
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  that he looks looks for.
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  To me, that it is the most positive, news I could hear from a CEO that is a model for many
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  CEOs out there.
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  Empathy is one way to start, meet them where they are, understand where they are, and then
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  let them shift.
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  For where you see the future is.
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  So listening, communicating, understanding the other person's perspective, keeping a curious
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  mindsets.
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  These are simple ways we can overcome these challenges we see and become more intentional
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  in our approach to change.
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  Most importantly, I think it is a responsibility of every executive in the
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  organization to make a clear commitment to elevate and eliminate toxic behaviors and the
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  organization.
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  The the organization may have the best culture in the world, and you have one subculture that
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  is toxic that could be consuming time and energy from everyone else.
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  And making that commitment to stop these type of behaviors is really critical.
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  So empathy, listening, communicating effectively and understanding where the people
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  are.
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  So coming from a curious mindset, Curiosity brings, you know, takes away all the regards of
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  judgment and bias.
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  Just be curious more and making the commitments.
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  To truly elevate the culture and be elevated by eliminating toxic behaviors and toxic leaders
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  that maybe your best leader Right?
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  And we can still use their expertise.
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  We can still use their intellect, but have them in places where they're more effective without
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  leading people.
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  Everyone is mentally people.
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  Our most amazing brains and rewards are not the best leaders.
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  So have them use their intelligence, your attacks, use their knowledge in the right
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  place, and have someone else lead the people side.
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  So I think we have a lot of examples of Der Roxanne of great models for change.
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  Great models for change.
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  Well, that that's an amazing list of of things and really, you know, simple qualities.
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  And, I mean, I would say that you're right.
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  We do have a lot of amazing CEOs out there that embody some of the the qualities that you're
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  talking about.
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  And, you know, empathy, you know, is such a basic thing, but, you know, just being kind
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  with people around you.
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  Like I said, if you don't know, ask.
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  It's, you know, I'm I'm curious why or how come you're having this response and not being
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  complicit to toxicity Right?
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  You know, and, unfortunately, I think with my interviews with a lot of, people in management,
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  they've seen companies move toxic, leaders to different, you know, there's 8 hospitals who
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  will move them around to kind of, you know, hide the problem.
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  And then in turn, what does that do that just, you know, cross pollinates the Roxanne?
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  And then in turn, that that ruminate to the the core fundamental base of trust.
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  And then, you know, you gotta, you know, a huge, huge problem on your hands.
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  Oh, yes.
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  Yes.
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  So and that's where coaching Roxanne comes into place.
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  Right?
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  Yes.
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  For sure.
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  And having having a confident person place of confidence for you just to have conversations
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  that are high level with someone that is not in your organization.
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  This is what the gift of executive coaching.
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  Right?
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  That's when you And this is something the choice.
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  Right.
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  And this is something that, Luka does with the you know, with companies, across, you know, the
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  u US, Canada and Internationally.
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  Salubna, tell us a little bit about some of the things with these CEOs that are maybe looking
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  and wanting direction, what are some things, that they should consider when, you know,
• 18:53
  looking at executive coaching.
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  And I know we're almost at time, but, you know, what are some of the core fundamentals that
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  people actually need to know so that if they are engaging and thinking, wow, we need to do
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  some things.
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  We need to get some, you know, basic AI or, you know, emotional intelligence but we, we, we're
• 19:12
  not sure where to go.
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  What are some of the competencies they should be looking in in executive coaching, just to
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  kind of start that initial step?
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  I think, you know, my recommendation in general that I give to the CEO's that I work with and
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  to the ones that have not yet worked with is client the person in your life that's gonna
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  hold engaging conversations with you, that provides leadership conversation with you, and
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  that challenges you to do what is the best for the organizations, being a CEO or an executive
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  that level is lonely.
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  It really is lonely.
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  And you cannot, share or talk or discuss possibilities be threatening to others within
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  the realm of your organization, find those people outside your organization, whether it's
• 20:07
  an executive coach, or a mentor or an advisor or a CEO that is at a different organization,
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  you know, have some kind of a group council, CEO council forum, have those engaging
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  conversations on a weekly basis This is not something that is nice to have.
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  This is really important for your growth as a CEO.
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  It is salute importance Roxanne because the conversations you have allow you to listen to
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  your own voice and allow you to make decisions based on new insights.
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  There's no time for you to do this alone, and there's no time to do it within your groups
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  because there's stuff happening.
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  You need the time and the space for you to think, reflect, and consider options, and
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  science and neuroscience is informing us that hearing your own voice and thoughts is your
• 21:03
  best segue to solution So the neuroscience, the journals are telling us that they're informed
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  about this Roxanne.
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  Well, as usual, Lubna, my friend and colleague, this is an amazing conversation.
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  And, for anyone you know, wanting to to reach out or, to consult or learn more about mind
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  markets, where would where can they get a hold of you, Rubna?
• 21:31
  So, mind market dot org is the website, and it's lubna@mindmarkit.org.
• 21:39
  More than happy to talk to you or chat with lubna.com is the another option.
• 21:45
  Chat with lubna.com.
• 21:46
  I have a wonderful afternoon, Roxanne.
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  Such a pleasure to see you, and I'm sure we'll meet again.
• 21:54
  I'm sure we will.
• 21:55
  So for everyone listening, What am I walking away with?
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  I guess, you know, I call these the ROR moments in my interviews with which is the return on
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  relationship, which is my new book.
• 22:07
  And my one, takeaway is when you are going through change, think of the legacy of what
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  you're doing to the people, in the organization.
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  Think of their emotions, things of their space, and think about what they're experiencing as a
• 22:27
  legacy as you make that change.
• 22:29
  And if anyone's wanting to know more about the relationships, either at home or at work, what
• 22:36
  you can do is reach out to Roxanne Derhodge com forward slash quiz.
• 22:40
  There's a really, really quick quiz you take either at home or at work and we'll we'll pop
• 22:45
  you back off some results on that mini quiz.
• 22:48
  With some recommendations.
• 22:49
  Again, Luna, thanks so much.
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  And for everyone, thanks so much for hanging out with us.
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  Enjoy having these conversations.
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  And I learn a lot every single day with every expert that I bring on.
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  Take our Luma.
• 23:02
  We'll talk to you soon.
• 23:03
  Bye.
• 23:03
  Take care.
• 23:04
  Bye bye.
• 23:07
  Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive,
• 23:13
  healthy change.
• 23:14
  Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
• 23:20
  rocksandurhaj.com/blueprint.
• 23:24
  We'll see you next time.
• 23:26
  On authentic living with Roxanne.