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Exploring Plyometrics with Matt McInnis Watson · Performance Explored Project

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: On today's episode of the Performance Explorer project, I have Matt McGuinness Watson.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: He takes me through his progression of plyometrics, scaling through movement pattern, and then progressing that further with scaling through amplitude, then walking it all the way back, talking about the importance of how everyone should be doing plyometrics, especially from a longevity standpoint, but also the introduction of it in new rehab setting.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: Then he takes me through his thought process of deep tier plyometrics, which I think have a lot of value, not just from a compliance warm-up standpoint, but all the way going to sports performance.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get into this.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Anyone scroll five swipes now on Instagram, they're seeing some new implementation of plyometrics, some sort of sports performance uh training modality or how we train.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: And this is your wheelhouse.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: So when it comes to pliometrics, where do you stand?
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: And hopefully that common thread of seeing plymetrics, you know, hopefully I'm feeding into that.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's the that's the first thing.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully, as a positive way in a good way.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: In a good way.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's also, you know, there's the flip side of that.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: But when I start with plymetrics, it's and I think that there you do get a little bit of backlash and being like, where you start isn't necessarily plometrics.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I I'm a bit more of an advocate for that now.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's there is a lot of purists that have always supported how Russian development of Pliometrics has been, you know, a big forefront of performance training.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: But I look at it and say, how can I get everyone into plymetrics?
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that for me is more important than getting the 1% to do the most dynamic forms.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because it also has a very short shelf life when we look at the shock method and we look at very typical, high intense, very short ground contact forms of plymatrics.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I say, well, how do we just get more, whether it's a young athlete or whether it's older population or everyone in between, how would I how do I get them there?
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: So we we use I use my mentor Eric Little's tiered system.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: Starts light movement, it's very rudimentary, it scales into submaximal, and then we may touch upon maximal in 10 forms of biometrics and we use a movement pattern progression.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: I don't typically like the word progression, and I would rather call it like a level of intensification in that we don't go from A and try to graduate all the way to Z.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's not my aim.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: We are always gonna use every five of these movement patterns.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: It just depends at what time of your year, career, season, age, stage, there's always going to be an opportunity for the best athletes in the world to use the lightest forms of movement.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: We start bilaterally with a light form of landings, whether you want to call it plyometrics or not.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: My common phrase for it is that if it has a landing and a takeoff in the sequence and it's done relatively quickly, it's starting to look like plyometrics.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: When it has a landing and takeoff and it's a bit too long in duration, then it's more of a jumping method.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: And that differentiation is purely based on how much involvement of the tendon are you getting in comparison to if you were slower on the ground.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: It becomes more muscular because of the compliance in that happening.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: So you spend more time on the ground, you're gonna have more compliance of the joint.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: So less tendon involvement and so on and so forth.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, we start in the light tier.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: We use the bilateral movements that scales into the split stance and the split exchange, and then we seek into those unilateral movements.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: And what's important that maybe stands out a little bit is that because we have these levels of amplitude of light, medium, and maximal, we can get someone to be doing unilateral movement, but in the lightest form rather than waiting to, you know, the end stages of this big progression in plymetrics to get to unilateral movement.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, no, we're doing unilateral movement really early, and we're learning all of the neuromuscular demands that it takes.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: We're understanding proprioceptibly better on a single leg.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's fed really well anecdotally into the coaching that I've done, and that the earlier we get unilateral work in, even if it is really low in amplitude, the better it served the athlete to develop as they move into those higher excellence of more intense work.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: Have you noticed with being more pattern-focused, like you said, starting out, that it almost has some familiarity with people that currently have a training age because they see plyometrics and instantly they think jumping, jump box jumps, pogos, stuff like that that you see on social media versus you're taking movement patterns are probably already doing in their training program and be like, no, this can we can take that same pattern and serve that with this thought of plymetrics.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: There's much more of a intensity and more physical structure development mindset in typical plyometrics.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a lot more about everything's about input and output.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: And when we when we go more towards those movement patterns and trying to get the people into maybe using a hop on one leg, and we can do that multi-directionally and so on and so forth, there's a neuromuscular learning component that also comes in.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, there is in typical plyometrics, but we're exploring a lot more.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: We're teaching you how to land on one limb, maybe exchange, maybe move in different directions.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas the typical standard two-foot work, falling on off and on of boxes, it becomes very isolated in a way that learning outside of that doesn't really bleed into other skills.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas I see a huge trade-off into other things that people do.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if I'm working with a track and field athlete and I'm using unilateral movements like a hop or a bound, I often see that their running may improve because of that.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: Whilst they're also doing running in their training.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it can be the same in team sports as well.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: And actually in team sports, it can be even more significant.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, I feel like I'm way more, you know, capable and accelerating now, or I feel a lot more comfortable and upright running.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so rather than just training elements like stiffness or how rigid or reactive I can be, obviously we're training that.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: But I want you to be better at executing a multitude of skills that are all working on stiffness rather than trying to train the physical components of tissue to make them stiff.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: We can all do that.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that could be done really simply, but I think there's a lot more power in seeing stiffness as a holistic endeavor.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's no good training up and down if your job is to cut in and out of forward translating movement, lateral, backwards.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: You play multi-directional sport, it's no good being stiff up and down.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: It has a little transfer, but I think it has a shelf life to that.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: So when you talk about the patterns, and that's how you like to start people out, that progression of familiar movements that maybe they can reference.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: They have a feedback of I know how to do this, I've done this exercise in the past, now we're speeding it up, whatever it is.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: Now, how do you progress them after the patterns with your system?
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's as simple as taking someone.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: So you may get really competent bilaterally in the light tier.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: You're still learning maybe unilateral movement, maybe you're learning how to hop on one leg still, still not quite getting it.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: I can tease you up into the medium tier to do some bilateral work up there.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that also may feed into improving your unilateral work in the light tier because we're giving you more overload.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: We're trying to get you to create higher levels of force in a shorter amount of time, which is unilateral work to the nth degree.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like it is that much harder because you've got to do it that much faster with that much more overload.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: So you start to see this cross over into the different tiers.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: So we may bleed you into doing bilateral work in the medium tier whilst we're still learning unilaterally in the light tier.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then we try and graduate the unilateral work into the medium tier.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then eventually we're gonna try and do that in the ping tier or maximal intent forms of plometrics.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: How do you bridge that?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think when people think plyometrics, they just think maximum effort.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: They just think send it.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: And the way you've talked about the general population, progression people, how do you get them to understand that nuance of there is something submaximal that has a lot of value?
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do you bridge that conversation?
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I use a method like a build-up leap.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: We bilaterally we are going to get you over 10 reps to build up to the 10th rep being 100%, let's say.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: And 100% is very self-prescribable to you, which I'm a big advocate for.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a case of let's see where movement starts to look like you're intensively trying here.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: And there is intent behind it.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: What normally happens, you actually slow down on the ground because you're trying to exert that much more force to be vertically propelled.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so where does that start to fall apart?
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the cusp there.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: So it could be rep six or seven, some of you it could be four or five, or you're a stunt of an athlete and it could be eight or nine, or nine or ten, maybe.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: So where is that?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: Once once you've kind of understood that as the coach and as the athlete, like I want to get feedback from the individual that's doing that.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: Where did you feel like it fell apart?
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I felt it on the six, and maybe you as a coach were like, well, visually it didn't look too bad until seven or eight.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: And you find a happy medium.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: Cool.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Build back up to that for me and now stay there.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: Do a high volume of that.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: We'll just do that on the spot with two feet.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: Feel that submaximal place where you feel comfort.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: You can do it, and I can almost have a conversation with you.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: You're still able to relax your breathing and execute in a way that maintains the contact speed.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: We need that to be short and sharp.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: But I can do a relatively high volume of that where it still looks like I'm getting quite a lot of height or propulsion in general.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: Do you experience any sort of like um misunderstanding with clients?
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because when I tell someone to jump, I think they instantly assume jump as high as I can, jump as explosive as I can, jump as fast as I can.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: When you're peeling that back and saying, no man, there's a lot of value of being submaximal for repeated efforts.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: What is that conversation like when you're trying to implement, hey, we're just a little bit less, but what is that value that they're getting out of it by staying in that area?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's a really good conversational point, actually, because they're we are still in the midst of lacking quality uh research and education on the value of submaximal extensive methods being the thing that actually can adapt tissue.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: We are very much in, we have high-intense work, even some submaximal studies that are such short duration studies that all we really get in terms of feedback from them is the results are showing neurological changes.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: They're not showing tendon changes.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we have researchers telling us that maybe isometrics or weightlifting is the thing that's changing the tendon.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I start to get to a belief I'm from a track and field background, and I've got kids that have never done an isometric or never lifted weights, yet I have seen their development and tendinous structures apply force in a way that is there has to be change there.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: And what is it from?
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: Two or three or four years of highly dynamic plyometric activities.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think Daniel Buck said this initially.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, there nothing can really change structurally when you do a very small amount of high intense volume.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: You are gonna see it from the sub-maximal training that you're able to do to a much larger degree.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: And when I think about it, sometimes I think you could do medium tier sub-maximal volume almost five to maybe even six or seven times the amount that you could do of maximal forms.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: And if you were to measure those maximal forms, like say we're gonna capture ground contact time and jump height in all the maximal ones that you do, I can guarantee you the drop-off is way earlier than what you actually think in terms of perceived effort.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas the sub-maximal category, it has a little bit more flow to it, right?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: It can be a little higher or it can be a little lower, but we're still trying to create propulsion, but be in a relaxed state.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's not super light that it's down to the rudimentary, but it's in such a way that we can do such high volumes of it, that for me is where structures and tissues are going to change.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: And and I believe it, whether it's anecdotal or just experience, I think that's where research needs to go for us to support those um maybe accusations or claims.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: As a high jumper, I mean, you can express a lot of power vertically, horizontally.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I know you have a pretty intensive track background with the bobsledders, but you also do a lot of work with athletes, wrestlers, basketball players of all dynamics.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: And when I think about plyometrics, one of the missing pieces is a lot of it's phone booth stuff.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: We're just standing still or we're jumping on top of something, but you're in that sagittal plane, you're not exposing rotation, you're not in the frontal plane, anything like that.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: But I've seen you post a lot about being in the frontal plane, being dynamic and stuff.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you think that lands?
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think with a lot of the athletes that you're working with currently.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think that it becomes 95% of the program and on the spot, it almost leads, once you've mastered being able to move on the spot, yeah, move, start to move.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to get you moving.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: I want you to experience what it feels like to deal with high levels of force for interior hip muscles, for lateral muscles, for you know, what happens when you're saying, like, when I rotate my upper body, how do I deal with that?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: And how, how well do I move in space and understand where I am in space so that when I put my foot down slightly off center, am I comfortable there?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: Can I be reactive there?
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: And can I make this, you know, performance-based or actually just general pop day-to-day life base?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if I'm walking down the street and my foot steps slightly out and I'm 67 years old, is that a major injury or is it just a step in my walk?
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: And we spoke about it when we talked about the heat maps.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think having a greater heat map around where you can place your foot, how I can orientate my body, how I can correct where I am in space to then be confident to put my foot down rather than scared of that.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot in sport that I think that we lose when it comes to the economy and efficiency of how we get in and out of multi-directional movement.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of the time you see that the trunk is the first thing to put you in a bad position in terms of you're orientating just slightly, maybe in an over-rotated fashion.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you're leaning a little bit to the left.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're able to organize your body to get your foot down and still pivot off of it fast, I think that's way more potentially enhancing of your performance than it would be to just run another mile an hour quicker.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: When you said the heat maps thing, I thought that was a great analogy for one.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but for two, it's I look at that as I know we're not allowed to say the words injury prevention because we can't prevent injuries, but damn it, that's what we're trying to do.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like a seatbelt doesn't protect you from getting injured in a car accident, but I'm hopefully trying to prevent juices.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: So to me, I look at training as that same thing.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to expose them to as many movement patterns, or I would say I'm trying to equip their toolbox.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I commonly call this like the monkey bar principle.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's as an adult, you look at monkey bars and you're like, oh, yeah, I can do that.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: Get up there and try.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then next thing you know, you're three monkey bars through, and you're like, man, when did I lose that?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's the same thing, in my opinion, with like sports stuff, like or athletic type movements.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, how many times people get injured in softball slow toss fun games because they haven't sprinted to first base or that distance in years, and then they hit a ground ball, they try to beat it out and they pull their hamstring.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: Or, like you said, some old person, they're, you know, the how they interact with the ground, like they haven't done that.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it's you're equipping them with movement options that hopefully lead to better outcomes.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's there's a lot to be said in this.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: If you were, if you imagined a heat map of, you know, someone that they play football, they play soccer, they play lacrosse, that these guys can just move.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're their feet are outside their center of mass, they're smoother and out, and they've got such, if you were to look at it, such a great, large diversity of how they can move.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: And then you imagine like an 80-year-old that has like a pinpoint.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: Anything outside that is like, well, I'm just gonna tip over and fall.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so when we're looking at chaotic movement, you have to have a larger heat map to allow there to be slight nuance because there all there is never gonna be the same step ever, I think, in a soccer game or basketball game or a football game.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: There is always gonna be just slightly different.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and the interaction with the ground is always gonna be just slightly different.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I really see value in, you know, and it can be this very imaginative way of looking at it.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, cool, good win though.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's it's simplistic and it and it provides us, I think, with something to say, you know what, I can see that you don't like to put your left foot across your body.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: Now, there could be a whole host of other reasons why, but at the same time, neurologically, I want you to be subconsciously capable of feeling comfortable there.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: Not consciously thinking, you know what, when I do that, uh-huh, I don't like that side of my body.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, one of one of my friends, DJ, he calls it negotiating the obstacle.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: If you haven't done it and you're thinking about like, I gotta get on the back of this tailgate, and you're just like, if you know you can jump up there, you don't even think about it, you just go.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Versus the person that hasn't done that, they're like, uh uh, and they take these half reps and they're like, oh, I can I do this, can I do this?
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Versus having that equipped toolbox that you can.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: You said something earlier, and you talked about um working with more of the general population.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: I know you do a lot of work with sports, but for me, especially with people things, seeing things on social media, it's this I look at plometrics, specifically just extensive jumping, whatever, is like a key to life.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we look at lethality and like older people.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: The second they stop interacting with the ground, that's when things start to decline.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: And they start to become less elastic, more stiff, and not in a good way, then it becomes issues.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I know you do a lot of work with physical therapists, with your workshops, as a big clientele that comes in and want to learn from you.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: When you're introducing these thoughts, these patterns, whether it's older population or people that haven't been exposed to plyometrics, or maybe like a rehab setting, they're coming back.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: How do you start to introduce that?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because to me, everyone should be doing the plyometrics, but like where do we start?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's I think the key.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I love the the part that you said.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's about maybe interacting with the ground.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I kind of reverse engineer or think in a way of it's normally because of obviously there is an interaction with the ground that they're having to deal with, but normally when you allow someone to be airborne, what happens when someone is it's when when it's been so long that they've actually hit the ground and dealt with an eccentric loading force?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: What happens, right?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Tense rehab is the same.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: You have someone that's come back from major trauma injuries or surgery.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: Normally the case is that they have such inhibition in them.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: So the moment they leave the ground, it's like there's an unknown.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that is really such a big part of building in a lot of cyclical patterns into how I coach someone from a rehab stance, someone that's older, someone that's just never done plyometrics.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: And oscillatory movement is a fundamental piece of that for me.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: And whether you start with leaving the ground or not, it is about relaxing and contracting.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: And it's learning how to synchronize the speed in which your brain does that, how the muscle maybe is contracting, maybe at the right time together, how your torso then interacts with what your lower body's doing, and whether we can just build this system that can kind of sing together rather than it feel like completely disjointed.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so we use movements like a step-in lunge or a step in toe tap that I have an anchored point.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: And anchoring the body, I think, is so overrated.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, sorry, underrated.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: A little bit of stability goes a long way, just a little bit of stability provides.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: So much more confidence in how we then become not a hundred percent airborne, but we're using a limb that floats a little bit in the air, and then we're having to interact.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: We have that anchored point, and then it's about graduating people away from the wall and that now feeling of safety.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because as I mentioned first off, it's once I get airborne, it's like whoa, this my shoulders rain.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: I do it too, become tense.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it's because I know that there's going to be a foreign interaction with the ground.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: And and I tell people that poliometrics and dynamic movement and landing should never leave the program because you can go four or five weeks, and having done three or four years of biometrics, honestly, weeks can be enough for you to be like, whoa, I don't feel like I can interact with the ground as well.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're talking three or four decades, yeah, what happens?
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: Now, from a tissue standpoint, there's obviously this massive detrimental part to it.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: But in my opinion, in order to get to the tissue development standpoint of it, you have to build a confident neurological system that is not inhibited so much.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: And the tissue development just comes with it.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's very gradual exposure over time, high reps, big volumes of those oscillatory movements to start with.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: But that that volume just builds and builds confidence.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: When you say the word oscillatory, I I like I love that, and I like the light that you've kind of brought to that because even in the mobility programs I have, I have oscillatory, deep ranges of motion, putting yourself in these big flexion extension positions at the hips, the ankle, because I think there's a mobility aspect.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: I am preparing tissue.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: I am, it's enough of a stimulus to kind of load a little bit so people feel like they're doing something, which I think has a lot of value.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: But also people should feel light.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you're when you feel light on your feet, you feel different.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like when you're walking around, you see people as they lose weight or they get more, they feel more athletic, they just kind of bounce around a little bit.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: And you see those people walking around society, and you're like, man, that person looks like they're carefree.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: No, they're just they're they're good with maneuvering their body with this interaction with gravity.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: The deep tier uh plyometrics that you've kind of pushed in.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if I just called it the right words, but I think there's so much value with that because in sports, a ton, but also just movement prep.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you're going to the gym and you got squats today, oh man, what are we talking about?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: You can do all these goblet squats or all this, but if you get in a deep tier and you're bouncing around, that's gonna get those tendons and the knee and the quad and the ankles and the foot, and it's just gonna, you're gonna get your heart rate up.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's everything's just gonna align.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: Where did that sort of thought process come when you started introducing that?
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, look, I did deep tier when I was an athlete, and Eric, my mentor, tells me stories.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: His coach, Zolton Tenke, who was a European coach that moved over to Canada, he's like, I'd been in a track group for four or five years.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: I was a decathlet, crazy strong, did a lot of standard dynamic work.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: Zolton comes in, brings in this deep tier thing.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: Or not necessarily what he called it, but Eric then called it deep tier later on.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, we did deep tier once.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, I couldn't walk for three minutes.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's a different stress, man.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that he said that straight away was the light bulb and being like, we live in a society of training people, everything is about stiff, dynamic outputs.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: And now I kind of my verbiage of it is kind of it's it's a different mechanism for the tissue, but it still has forms of velocity in it, which creates high overload in that tissue.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: But we go back to that, like those inhibited zones.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I talk about in rehab working at two ends of that bandwidth to oscillate in.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: You can oscillate nice and tall, in a nice, tall, rigid, overcoming kind of format, or you can oscillate at the bottom.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then our job is to then make you feel confident and bringing that together, bringing higher velocities in, or working through that entire sequence.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: So the deep tier, when I started to introduce it and talk about it online, it was very much people were seeing value in.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: I spoke to you about Olympic weightlifters using it.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: I could see so much value.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: I feel that you know they feel confident in the positions they can drop into.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: If you just get into like a squat pattern and leap in and out of that and just oscillate at the bottom, number one, it builds that that comfortability there.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: I feel comfortable here.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: I can hold a med ball here if I want to balance, I can I can be crazy and put a bar over my head if I wanted to.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: Not that I personally would, but I know the the the weightlifters are doing that.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: But and and we've seen the same with power lifters as well.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: And these guys are so, so stiffly rigid that actually they're feeling like they're like, I can actually get a little bit more range out of some of the work that I'm doing.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's a lot, there's a lot in the tissue side of it, which there is no research on, absolute just anecdote.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: The health of the tissue feels good when everything I do is to pull on it hard and fast and short.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: But when I take it through longer ranges, it's almost like has that kind of anesthetic kind of feeling to really just providing you with just a bit more length.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: I had Corey on a month ago, and he used the words compliance and performance, almost like that performance that above nut everyone has no problem getting away from the ground when we're already kind of away from the ground.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: But that interaction, that deep, that's more of a compliance, that's more of that preparing tissue, preparing tendons, like preparing things to get away.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: And he was like, I've noticed huge things with having people interact in the basement.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: And now when I'm trying to get away, it's like they even float more because they're able to interact, that that relationship is better.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: They've met both sides of that spectrum, as you just said, the high, the low, and now they can merge those two together.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that there's a lot to be said in that when you have, I mean, Corey works in basketball.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: So if he's working with bigger guys, for them to deal with high eccentric stress, even in like a range that's like two or three inches deeper than a typical upright plymetric.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: How you and I think that there's a lot of scarcity there as well.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a place where they're like, I don't feel confident getting that much flexion at the knee, allowing my shin to drop like that and sitting my hips into something or being in a split stance.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that vulnerability down in those positions, like I want to I want to feed both ends of the scale there.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I want to gradually move through that.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, we do a lot that is everything's about being explosive and reactive.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot to be said to be more compliant and relaxed in those deeper ranges.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it is slowly becoming, I think, a bit more common to just do something that, you know, you could do it at the end of your session.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: It can be quite a metabolic stress, it can be a relaxing stress, but it's something that feeds into somewhere in between mobility and something dynamic.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: So with the growth of plyometrics and everyone doing them now, seeing the importance, hearing the value, people are weighing in on it all around social media.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: Are there things that you're seeing that maybe you see that maybe maybe we shouldn't be doing that yet, or things that we could be doing different that you're starting to notice with your growth?
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think that there has to be a there's a lot of people that are like throwing it into the the volume and the forefront of their program.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: And we still have to realize this is general training.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: And where you're gonna see the most benefit is realizing that time of, you know, periods of six months to a year or two years of smaller stimulus is gonna serve you much greater than trying to do everything in a very short period of time.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: And and you do see that, you see an ebb and flow of someone posting about all this stuff that they're doing plymetrically, and then you don't see it anymore.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: And they get bored, and it's like they're probably getting bored in quotation marks.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they got hurt, maybe, maybe they just felt really beat up.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so for me, it's about dosing it throughout the week in a way that supports everything else that you're doing, uh, and in using a little insert of deep tier movement.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: Once a week, maybe even once a fortnight, you're doing maximal movements, but but what about doing two to five sets of it?
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: And that's it of you know, six to eight reps.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's enough.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's a stimulus that you can just keep ticking over.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: The light and the medium and the deep are going to be the bulk of it.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the medium tier stuff is get out and flow in space, move at a slightly higher intensity.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, the light tier should feed every dynamic training session that you do.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's your preparation.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: Easy.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: And the more time you spend doing that, that becomes more routinely, I think that it's gonna serve everyone a lot better than it is.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: Always looking at ways to constantly push the reactive part, the output part.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: Everything's more, more, more.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, it's just no, spend more, more, more time doing this.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I promise you I'll have a greater benefit.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: You coach daily, you're working with athletes remotely in person.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: You also do your workshops, you're uh, I think you have digital you have digital courses online that people can watch and learn.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: What is something that you're looking at right now, or you're you're you're curious about regarding your space and plyometrics that maybe either you're exploring some or that maybe you see value with that people currently aren't doing or that you're kind of playing around with?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: The overload at speed stuff is is something that I haven't yet moved into the space, and it goes back to the locomotive kind of lens of movement in that I want to see people doing more bounds and hops at speed.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: I know I talked about you know not doing as much of that, but that is also a place that we need to explore a little bit more, and I think that we are very vertically orientated in terms of how we speak in plymetric realms, and rightly so, in terms of our, you know, the creators of this stuff, but we learn so much from the track and feel community in terms of how much force we can induce when we move at high velocities.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so, can I build maybe maybe it's just building a small group of athletes that can show these movements in a way that people start to go, wow, even if I was to do like a 20% jog into a few movements, I really start to open my eyes to true overloaded velocity.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and it's the same of using resisted and assisted forms of, you know, using bands or 1080s whilst you're doing this.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it very much relates to some of the conversations we had about the transition of moving through the movement patterns is that when we get to the bounds and the hops, negative foot speed is probably one of the biggest indicators of higher levels of force.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: So the faster I move, the faster I've got to whip my leg and the harder forces that I have to deal with.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: So bringing that into the industry, I think, is going to be really fun.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: But also I continue to want to dig into getting older populations continuing to do so and and just gen pop.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what would it look like for me as a four-year-old male that works in, you know, a bank we spoke about earlier?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: What would it look like for me to do that two or three times a week just to have a bit of fun with that?
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and maybe put it in in before I do a little bit of pickleball or after I lift.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: What would that look like?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, I want I want to explore both ends of the scale because I think that it often provides me with the best lens of saying, this is great, but also I want to feed it to a larger community of people because I feel like everyone should be doing it.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: Matt, I'm gonna be honest, man, you you blew me away today.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I am so appreciative, not only for what you're sharing online for free for everyone to just learn from, um, but also the stuff you share today with me and the stuff you share to everyone that's watching this.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: I know if they want to learn more from you, you have your your digital course that's self-paced online, your introductory to plyometrics.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: So um, coaches, trainers, physical therapists, just looking for a place to start, and then they can follow along with your hands-on workshops, or if there's athletes interested, you offer remote and in-person training with where you're at, which is in Nashville, in Milkville, in Knoxville right now.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, that's probably against some some rule of talking about Tennessee.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but dude, thank you so much for being here.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, thank you so much for sharing.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for exploring with me.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: My calves are definitely a little, a little sore, a little sore today, uh, but but good.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: And uh man, I just want to say I really appreciate everything you're doing for the field.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: No, I I appreciate you having me on.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: The terms of what I've already watched, it's been it's been a breath of fresh air in terms of the the different way in which you're doing things and the experts that you're having on.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a truly like humbling experience for me to be able to come on here and express kind of what I am stupidly passionate about and and crazy about.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, but ultimately, I I I just want more people doing this stuff and exploring themselves and seeing this as a form of play.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, I really appreciate what you do.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's amazing.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: The city is awesome.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: Training with the guys this morning was great too.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: So awesome.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's it.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: That is exploring plyometrics with the man, Matt Watson.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: See you guys next time.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: Dude, Cry Folson.