Latest / Pretty In Pink Again / Episode 79: Postpartum Mental Health: Depression, Anxiety, Intrusive Thoughts & Finding Joy Again with Postpartum Therapist Melissa Fairhurst

Transcript

Episode 79: Postpartum Mental Health: Depression, Anxiety, Intrusive Thoughts & Finding Joy Again with Postpartum Therapist Melissa Fairhurst · Pretty In Pink Again

• 0:00
  I'm Christina.
• 0:00
  And I'm Teeb.
• 0:01
  And this is the Pretty in Pink Again podcast.
• 0:03
  Where motherhood meets rediscovery.
• 0:16
  Today, we're having a conversation that I think so many women need, whether you're in the postpartum period right now, years removed for it, pregnant, or supporting someone you love.
• 0:26
  We hear a lot about postpartum depression, but postpartum mental health can show up in so many different ways: anxiety, intrusive thoughts, obsessive checking, feeling constantly on edge, feeling disconnected from yourself, or simply knowing that something doesn't feel right even though from the outside you seem completely fine.
• 0:44
  And I think the last part is really important.
• 0:46
  You can love your baby more than anything, be incredibly grateful to be a mom, take care of everyone around you, and still be struggling.
• 0:54
  Those things can coexist at the same time.
• 0:57
  Today, we're talking about what can be part of the normal adjustment period to motherhood what might be a sign that you need more support, how partners and families can recognize when a mom may be struggling, and what help can actually look like.
• 1:10
  We're also going to talk about something that feels really personal for me, finding joy in motherhood again.
• 1:15
  Not forcing yourself to enjoy every minute, and not adding another thing to the list of ways moms can feel like they're failing, but figuring out how to make room for yourself again, our hope with this episode is that someone listening hears something that makes her feel a little less alone or realizes she doesn't have to wait until she's in crisis to ask for help.
• 1:33
  So let's get into it.
• 1:35
  Hi.
• 1:35
  Welcome, Melissa.
• 1:36
  Thank you for having me.
• 1:37
  Thank you for being here.
• 1:38
  We're so excited to talk to you about this.
• 1:41
  Christina and I did a personal episode on this topic about a year ago- about our own experiences with motherhood and postpartum depression and anxiety, and it was one of our most- shared episodes and one of our most viewed through social media.
• 1:55
  Kind of like something clicked in us people are listening and sharing this because maybe they too also felt like this, you know?
• 2:02
  It also clicked for us that this is a conversation that needs to be open more, and people, women need to feel comfortable- Yeah sharing their experiences with other women.
• 2:13
  Definitely.
• 2:13
  Yeah.
• 2:14
  it's my entire world and my career in the f- you know, just in the sense of talking with moms about their experiences of becoming a mom, experiencing postpartum anxiety and depression.
• 2:27
  But then also as a mom to four myself, so having lived through four babies and just by the time I got to pregnancy number three was when I made this shift and transition in my practice because I'm like,"Wait a minute.
• 2:40
  I feel like moms don't get a lot of mental health support." We carry these babies for nine months, the baby gets here, the baby gets cared for, they have a million appointments, and somewhere in the midst of all that, the mom gets lost.
• 2:53
  So it is an important conversation.
• 2:55
  I do think there is a lot to be said about solidarity, just in knowing that other moms have experienced something similar to what you're experiencing, and that there's no shame in admitting that you may be experiencing something like that.
• 3:10
  We did an episode at Hartford Hospital last year, and we interviewed this woman who works in women's health there, and she initiated this program there called The Fourth Trimester, where she carefully follows mothers after delivery.
• 3:24
  And she had this analogy that stuck with me.
• 3:26
  Do you remember the wrapper theory?
• 3:27
  Yep.
• 3:28
  About how the baby's the candy and the mother's the wrapper, and the mother wrapper just gets, like, thrown to the side.
• 3:34
  Yes.
• 3:34
  And the visual of that really stuck with me, and was pa- like a painful one to remember.
• 3:39
  Yes, it's very sad to think about that.
• 3:40
  Yeah.
• 3:41
  I wish that that was a universal thing, that you said that she follows the moms into the fourth trimester.
• 3:46
  I really do wish that that was something that was more nationwide, but, that's why people in my profession show up every day and try to change the path for moms and maternal mental health.
• 3:57
  Yeah.
• 3:58
  So let's maybe take us from the beginning.
• 4:01
  You have a baby.
• 4:03
  What is a postpartum period?
• 4:05
  When can that start?
• 4:07
  Mm.
• 4:07
  When can that technically stop?
• 4:09
  What does that time look like for a new mom?
• 4:11
  So we refer to it as the perinatal period, which puts you anywhere from, conception of being pregnant with baby into postpartum.
• 4:19
  If you get technical, postpartum technically is 12 months postpartum.
• 4:25
  But most of the moms that I work with in therapy aren't coming in until somewhere around six to nine months.
• 4:33
  And so by the time we're underway and working together and identifying what could really be going on underneath the surface, we're already close to what society would say, postpartum ends at 12 months.
• 4:45
  So for me, I really think that it's up to two years that a mom could potentially present with things such as postpartum anxiety, and I think by giving it that 12-month timeline, we keep moms more silenced because you get to the one-year mark and you think like I should have it going on.
• 5:02
  I've been doing this for a year, and so I don't know why I'm feeling this.
• 5:05
  I don't even know what I'm feeling, and I'm just not gonna say anything." So I don't love the timeline of it, and I really push for moms to just ask for help no matter where you're at, like even if you're 18 months postpartum.
• 5:17
  'Cause but then what happens is you're 18 months postpartum with your first baby and you get pregnant with your next baby, so now you've entered back into that perinatal window anyway.
• 5:26
  And I just think it's so unique to each mom.
• 5:28
  Yeah, and I mean, some of the things that I guess occur postpartum, you know, the sleep deprivation- Yeah the hormone fluctuation, the change of your life, like that doesn't magically end- Yeah at nine months.
• 5:39
  And also for a lot of moms, you end up rolling into having a second- Right kid on top of it at age two.
• 5:45
  So you may not be coming to seek help until maybe your oldest- Yeah is like three or four.
• 5:50
  Do you want to speak to maybe the difference of the two big terms that we hear, like postpartum anxiety and postpartum depression?
• 5:57
  Yeah, I think that the term postpartum depression really gets to be like an umbrella term.
• 6:03
  If you're not familiar with maternal mental health, even when cases come up in the news, like the Lindsay Clancy case and psychosis, for a long time you heard postpartum depression.
• 6:14
  And there are so many mood and anxiety disorders that a mother can face.
• 6:18
  It's not just postpartum depression.
• 6:20
  So I think, making a clear distinction between what each one is is important because for a mom with postpartum anxiety, it might not even be something that is so evident as like,"Oh yes, you're anxious." It might be a mom who really can't sit still and just has to be on a go, go, go mentality and feels like she can't leave the house because if she leaves the house, could something potentially happen to the baby?
• 6:43
  And so she will sit there and think about that thought for so long that then she just won't end up leaving the house.
• 6:48
  But when you sit with that, unless you're somebody who's well-versed in what could be happening, you might just be like,"Oh, well, she's overprotective.
• 6:54
  Like she just had a baby, that's just part of being a mom." And then for the mom with postpartum depression, it's not necessarily gonna wear like a sadness, you know, where you would say, is everything okay?" Like I could tell that something's been going on.
• 7:07
  I've worked with moms and experienced it often where what you see on the outside is not what's happening on the inside.
• 7:16
  And so mom is perceived to be okay but she has had difficulty getting out of bed most days, or she really hasn't been able to take a shower because she just feels, like this deep level of depression.
• 7:29
  And so it is important to make a distinction between what each perinatal mood and anxiety disorder is,'cause there are a lot of overlaps, between something like anxiety and something like depression, and every mom's symptoms will be different from the next mom.
• 7:45
  So even comparing one mom with PPA to another mom who's had postpartum anxiety might not look the same.
• 7:51
  You always hear the term, like, functioning depression or, like, functioning anxiety, and a mom- has to function.
• 7:58
  So I think that's sort of-- I'm assuming that's why things can get missed, is because you're looking for that laying in bed all day and s- you know, so, so much sadness.
• 8:09
  Yep.
• 8:09
  And that's really not what's happening because you can't do that.
• 8:13
  So I-I'm assuming- Yeah that's why it gets missed.
• 8:15
  I think, and it came up in the closing arguments of L- Lindsay Clancy's case, there was a-- something that the prosecutor said that ended up taking off on social media because she asked the jurors to look at the videos that had been presented, and do you see a mom that looks sad or do you see a mom that looks like she would attempt to end her own life?
• 8:39
  You see a mom who's tending to her children, who's at a museum, who's showing her daughter things, who's actively posting pictures where she's smiling.
• 8:49
  And I think the argument was just, you don't necessarily see somebody who's struggling with postpartum depression'cause like you said they're going about their day because what are they supposed to do otherwise?
• 9:00
  Well, and I think oftentimes we hide behind busyness when we're not able to cope with how we're feeling, and it's very easy to hide behind your children, even if you're not enjoying the steps or you're really hiding behind them.
• 9:14
  so I guess the next probably part of this conversation is if you're looking from the outside or even if you're the mom and you're looking from the inside, since the symptoms are not as apparent as maybe everybody thinks that they are.
• 9:30
  So what does postpartum depression actually look like?
• 9:34
  from the inside?
• 9:35
  I think for the mom, especially for the mom who's feeling it from the inside, is that I always say if something feels off or if you're experiencing anything that makes you think"I can't just push past this.
• 9:47
  Like, I'm stuck." And I use a lot in the postpartum anxiety world, too, and even depression, of like things that feel debilitating to you, But if anything feels off or such a debilitating, heavy feeling, it's worth asking somebody if this is something that you should talk to someone about.
• 10:06
  If anything feels like,"I didn't think that this would be my experience, and this is my experience, and it's really scary for me to have to talk to somebody," because I-and one of the biggest things that comes up in this world I don't want someone to think that I don't love my baby, but I'm not experiencing postpartum- Right the way that I've heard other people talk about it, and if there's something wrong with me?
• 10:29
  And I think that's where moms get held up on, like, I just, I'm not gonna say anything, right?
• 10:34
  I think from the outside it's really tough because It can be hidden so well.
• 10:40
  And I always say, like, keep checking in on your postpartum friends, because if you've dropped off a meal or if you've brought a package of diapers and she seemed okay when she answered the door, check in on her again next week.
• 10:52
  Because from the outside, it might not be this big red flag.
• 10:56
  sometimes it can be, but it might not be glaring in your face of like,"Oh, I think that she might be experiencing, postpartum depression.
• 11:03
  I'm gonna check on her." always just assume that something might be going on, and so if you're a good friend, keep asking her every week,"I'm out and about, could I bring anything by?
• 11:12
  how's it going for you?
• 11:13
  Have you been sleeping?
• 11:14
  I'm happy to pop over and, help in any way that I can." So I guess for the moms on the inside if something feels off, it's okay to say that it feels off, and it's worth, talking about that.
• 11:24
  And for the people on the outside who are the support people, just keep checking in so that that person feels safe enough to maybe eventually say to you,"I don't think I'm doing okay.
• 11:36
  If you feel like you have somebody close to you that has not yet reached that point and you have checked in, you and your family are trying to pay attention to these patterns, what is a way that won't make somebody necessarily shut down, but how can you maybe bring up this concern to them if they haven't yet felt safe enough to bring up to you?
• 11:59
  So things that you're noticing but maybe they're not vocalizing Cause I've had a couple of friends, and myself included, go through this, and we all are so- Mm-hmm entwined with each other's lives, but never really had the guts to say, like,"I'm witnessing this happening to you." Like,"I wanna help you." But I will say-'Cause I never knew how to say it.
• 12:16
  Right, but I'll say from personal experience, being the one that was dealing with postpartum depression with my second, I almost wished that other people would've noticed- Just- so that I didn't have to be the one to raise my hand to say it.
• 12:31
  because it ma- It's a good point I feel like it would've made things so easy, and that did- Mm-hmm eventually end up happening.
• 12:36
  But it would've made things easier if others recognized that I did not seem well at the time, because you're so in your head, and your world- Mm-hmm is kind of flipped upside down, and you're, like, living- Mm-hmm this new normal, that for you to be the one to raise your hand is actually harder- Yeah than somebody else, I think, recognizing.
• 12:56
  Yeah.
• 12:56
  Because you're just living it.
• 12:58
  You're like,"I know I'm supposed to be exhausted.
• 13:01
  I know I'm sleep deprived.
• 13:02
  I know my nights are my day and I'll..." You know, it's- Mm-hmm a confusing time, and you also know, you can feel inside your body- Right is healing and changing and all of that.
• 13:12
  So it's just, it's very hard to be the one, I think, to recognize it.
• 13:17
  Right.
• 13:17
  But I guess my question is, like, how do you bring up that concern- Yeah without making the mother feel judged?
• 13:22
  Uncomfortable.
• 13:22
  Right.
• 13:23
  You know?
• 13:23
  Right.
• 13:23
  And retreat further.
• 13:24
  I always say, too, that all spouses should be really well-versed in what the symptoms could look like and what they could present with, because that would be your first line of contact, right?
• 13:34
  Or the person who's observing you the most would be potentially a spouse.
• 13:39
  So I always say all spouses should really know what this could look like, and should know all the differing, mood and anxiety disorders that could present,'cause they could be the person that says,"I see that this is visibly wearing on you.
• 13:52
  I wanna do something that could help.
• 13:53
  Would it be helpful to me if I called Susie over, you know, when I go to work so that she could sit with you?" So that, like you said, you're not the one saying,"I can't handle it." There's a level of sometimes that, like, I know that I'm not doing well, and I know that I'm struggling, but I'm a mom, and also I should just be able to figure it out, right?
• 14:13
  I signed up for this.
• 14:14
  And so I'm not gonna say I want someone to come sit with me when he goes back to work, even though I really do, versus somebody presenting you with the idea- would you be more accepting of it?
• 14:23
  And then I think for friends, it's really dependent on, like, is this your ride or die girl, and can you get past that level of awkwardness of, like, maybe she's gonna retreat and be mad at me.
• 14:36
  It's like when you see somebody who's using a car seat wrong, and they're your best friend, and you love their kid like your own.
• 14:41
  You're gonna say,"Hey, you should probably move that chest clip up a little bit,'cause if you got in an accident..." you don't wanna say it,'cause you don't wanna make anyone feel bad.
• 14:49
  But also, then you sit with, like, what if something really is going on for her that just- you could potentially get help with.
• 14:54
  And if you bring it to her and you bring it to her spouse, now they both know that, like, we've seen it, and so, like, we are gonna keep checking in on you'cause, because we love you.
• 15:04
  It is really tricky though,'cause friendships once a baby here are tricky in and of themself.
• 15:09
  But I think if it's somebody that you're close enough with, pushing past that level of discomfort to say, like, I want you to know that I'm here.
• 15:17
  You don't have to tell me anything right now." maybe in a week she'll remember that you said that, and you'd be the first person that she would call I think that's excellent advice.
• 15:25
  We agree.
• 15:26
  on that same note, we talked about maybe some red flags for postpartum depression.
• 15:32
  What would some red flags for anxiety, postpartum anxiety, be like as well?
• 15:37
  Because you mentioned at the beginning you know, she's an overprotective mom, so she doesn't wanna leave the house.
• 15:42
  So what would be, something where a red flag would go off versus maybe what's normal mother, mama bear behavior?
• 15:48
  I always say, I just said it this morning on a call with a client, that there's always going to be, and you guys know'cause you're moms, a certain base level of worry that you could even say, like, a little bit of anxiety for our kids, right?
• 16:01
  no matter how old they get, they're in elementary school, and they're leaving us more, or they're in middle school, and they're dealing with frien- There's always gonna be a layer of worry.
• 16:09
  Where you worry with postpartum anxiety, especially in the months after having had a baby, again, goes back to how debilitating is this?
• 16:19
  are you laying awake at night and staring at your baby monitor to wait to see that rise and fall, and rise and fall, and, like, you can't fall asleep because you're riddled with something happening, and so you'll get up, and then you go and check.
• 16:31
  And I think so often those things get passed off as, like, well, that's, again, just part of becoming a mom.
• 16:37
  I'm always gonna be worried now.
• 16:39
  I'm not gonna leave the house because what if we left the house and, something happened, and we contract a cold, and so, I'm just gonna stay here, and so now, you're not going anywhere.
• 16:47
  So what happens with postpartum anxiety is it's not glaring, right?
• 16:51
  Like, you're the mom who's riddled with anxiety at night, and you're not sleeping, and you're just sitting there staring at the monitor.
• 16:57
  But because that doesn't seem like what we always think of with anxiety is, like, racing thoughts and, heart beating fast.
• 17:02
  Like, maybe your heart's not beating fast.
• 17:04
  You're just sitting there, and you can't sleep because you're so anxious about the baby.
• 17:09
  So I think that the red flags really boil down to, and I always describe anxiety with this analogy.
• 17:15
  When you're anxious about something, what is your ability to stay in the driver's seat with that anxious thought?
• 17:21
  Are you able to let the anxious thought be a passenger, where you say,"I see you here.
• 17:28
  I hear what you're trying to convince my brain of, and I know that I can reel it back in, and I can be the one that stays in control of this"?
• 17:37
  Or is the anxiety driving the car and you're a passenger just, like, tagging along with it, and you can't even keep up with your thoughts because the anxiety has taken over?
• 17:47
  So it's just a good way and I'm trying to think of an example with a client of just, are you able to think through the thought that's happening, pull yourself from the thought, and put yourself back into control?
• 17:59
  And when you start to lose the ability to really do that, you deserve support so that you can learn tactics and strategies, and talk to somebody, a professional, about what happens to you in the night when you're so riddled with anxiety that you go, and you sit, and you watch your son, and then you go back to bed.
• 18:17
  And now you're not sleeping, so that's not helping you in the morning when you wake up extra exhausted.
• 18:21
  So I'd be looking out for that.
• 18:23
  The two things that I think about is like, how debilitating is this feeling to me?
• 18:27
  Do I feel like it's overpowering?
• 18:30
  And if it's overpowering, that's not just normal you're-a-mom-now worry.
• 18:35
  It's something that I'm, it's worth talking about further with somebody Again, going back to, like, personal experience, I remember flagging myself for some behavior because I had given my mom a list of instructions that was, like, pages long of what to do second by second putting my daughter to sleep, and I looked back at it probably a couple days later.
• 19:00
  It, popped up, and I read through it.
• 19:02
  I probably had, more of a clear mind at that point, and I remember looking through and being like,"This is obsessive behavior." It was just such- detailed instructions that did not make sense.
• 19:14
  It wasn't like,"Okay, her bedtime is 7:30." likes to have a bottle." It was like,"Sit in the chair-" here.
• 19:20
  This direction." Like,"Stand up, pat her back." Like,"Put the pacifier in her mouth.
• 19:26
  Go turn the light off this amount." It was so detailed, and I looked back at that"What-" did this do?" You know what I mean?
• 19:34
  Like, what was this accomplishing?
• 19:35
  It was the label of control I was trying to get.
• 19:37
  Yeah, I was just gonna say, it was giving you control.
• 19:38
  Yeah.
• 19:39
  I thought it was giving me control, but it was obsessive compulsive behavior, and that's when I was like,"Interesting.
• 19:46
  I know I'm experiencing the depression side of this, but I'm also giving examples of like-" Yeah.
• 19:53
  the anxious side of it," and so I had a blend of the two, do you remember how many months your- So- baby was when you started to notice, like looking back and thinking- I think I was a little bit lucky because I, this happened- Okay the second time around.
• 20:07
  My first time around, I experienced sort of just baby blues, and so those were like the first couple weeks I had anxiety and kind of sadness- Yeah around the nighttime'cause I knew that- Yeah the nights were gonna be long.
• 20:19
  But that just eventually faded away.
• 20:22
  And so the second time around, I was assuming that that would happen again, but it never went away.
• 20:29
  And I was able to sort of flag it probably by, like, the two-month mark, I would say.
• 20:33
  I was like,"I'm still feeling like this," and it just seemed to get worse and worse.
• 20:38
  And so I was lucky enough to know that I'm having two different experiences.
• 20:42
  If it was my first baby, I don't know how long it would've been- Right before I would've spoken up.
• 20:46
  You know what I mean?
• 20:47
  And I guess this most recent trial in the media is such an extreme- case that I also think that everything that I was seeing when I was a new mom about postpartum anxiety, depression, psychosis was so extreme.
• 21:01
  It wasn't things like this.
• 21:04
  Right.
• 21:04
  And I often think that new moms live in this space sometimes more frequently than some of these extreme cases, and then you just kinda put'em to bed and think like,"I'm supposed to have these thoughts." Like, this is supposed to be.
• 21:17
  Which is so unfortunate.
• 21:18
  And that's where the work lies of what you said in the beginning of somebody following you into the fourth trimester, and just so much psycho ed on what could happen and what it could look like.
• 21:31
  So you even saying, what could it look like for postpartum depression?
• 21:35
  What could someone experience if she might be having postpartum anxiety, not baby blues anymore, right?
• 21:41
  Because what we know is that baby blues should only last a couple of weeks.
• 21:45
  So if you get a couple of weeks in and that kind of goes away, it was likely baby blues.
• 21:50
  But if you're two months in and you're still experiencing symptoms of the baby blues, it's probably not baby blues anymore.
• 21:58
  Because we know that that has an end period.
• 22:01
  So I think we're missing a huge gap, too, just on psychoeducation for a mom.
• 22:06
  And I, I think a big part of it is just, you know, I've posted stuff on my own Instagram that's landed on the wrong side of the internet'cause people are like,"This is so scary for a new mom.
• 22:16
  Why would you even, you know, say that this is something that someone experienced?
• 22:20
  You're, you're making it sound scary." And it's, it's not supposed to be scary.
• 22:24
  It's supposed to be empowering so that when you get to this stage, you would be able to say like,"Holy shit, I'm making these lists that are so intricate and so detailed," and like,"What am I telling myself if my mom doesn't follow my list?" Like, how riddled with anxiety am I gonna be that the baby's gonna wake up'cause she didn't pat her back 10 times like I told her she should have?
• 22:45
  And then if you know that, you're like,"Wait, I've heard this somewhere before.
• 22:49
  Like, my OB told me what this could look like." We would feel so much less worried about telling somebody that's our experience.
• 22:57
  So I think there is a huge gap.
• 22:59
  Some OBGYNs are really fantastic, and then you get the ones that are like,"Yeah, you know, you passed the little checkbox of the Edinburgh scale that only really looks at certain things, and you're good to go." And a mom is like,"Wait, I'm good to go?
• 23:12
  Okay, well, they said I'm good to go." So there's just a huge gap on education and awareness for these things anyway, which really sets a mom up for failure, and not because of her.
• 23:23
  So it sounds like when you do a lot of these, preparation courses for having a baby, you talk a lot about the birth, things you need, but it also sounds like education from a therapist such as yourself- is also very important or could be a very useful tool as part of that whole package before you deliver a baby, and it sounds like that's something- that you're trying to roll out.
• 23:46
  Can you speak to that initiative?
• 23:48
  Yeah, I mean, I really try to encourage moms to seek mental health therapy with somebody trained in maternal mental health while they're pregnant.
• 23:58
  And I've worked with pregnant moms who don't necessarily have what you would think a reason, right, of,"Well, I'm not really anxious, I'm not really depressed, like, I just wanna get ready." And it's like, that is the reason, right?
• 24:10
  Like, that is why you're here.
• 24:13
  But I think it's hard because especially if it's your first, you don't think that you need that.
• 24:18
  And so by the time you actually need it, you're so deep in the thick of it, you don't even know, A, where to look for one, and B, who to tell that you actually think you might need help.
• 24:28
  So I'm always an advocate and pushing, start working with somebody while you're pregnant, I've had plenty of clients who've entered postpartum.
• 24:38
  We've met, like, a time or two, and they're like,"I'm feeling really good.
• 24:41
  I know your contact info.
• 24:44
  My husband is here.
• 24:46
  If anything changes I will email you." So I always say, make it so that you're reaching in for support to things you already have in place, not that you're reaching out and you're like,"I don't know.
• 24:55
  Is she, does she know the postpartum world?" so I think the initiative that it has to be that it starts in pregnancy, and I really wish that that was something that was even talked about at an OB's office.
• 25:07
  I've had four babies, and not one time did anybody in my pregnancy say, it could be helpful to talk to somebody while you're getting ready to prepare for baby." You do so much preparation for- all of the gear and all of the things- Breastfeeding, yeah that you're gonna need.
• 25:23
  And it is just something that is so- glazed over that there is no discussion about any of this.
• 25:30
  By the time a mom actually needs help, and I can say that from personal experience, I remember sitting on this podcast, and when we were sharing our experiences, I said I stayed in the dark for longer than I needed to because I didn't even know how to get help.
• 25:47
  Because I was so exhausted and so depleted that I couldn't even go through the motions- No of finding a therapist to find help at that point,'cause that's when, not when I needed somebody.
• 25:58
  I, I would've already needed to know the phone number and know somebody is there, and I could have raised my hand.
• 26:04
  But instead, I was- Yeah starting from zero.
• 26:06
  So I, I think that that advice is so important, and I would say it again.
• 26:12
  I always say just establish a connection.
• 26:15
  Even if you email a therapist- Right that you found, I always say go to postpartum.net and look up in your area, therapists that are trained in maternal mental health, and make a connection.
• 26:26
  "I'm, 20 weeks pregnant.
• 26:29
  I don't feel like I'm ready to meet right now, but I just wanna establish a connection with you" so that when you get to that time, like you said, you already know who you're gonna reach out to.
• 26:39
  It's a huge gap in care.
• 26:41
  And as you're talking, I remember being a first-time postpartum mom breastfeeding, and for some reason, I thought that I would just breastfeed a baby.
• 26:49
  Like, I thought she would just latch on.
• 26:50
  I, I didn't think it would take such a mental turmoil.
• 26:54
  And I remember going to my OB a couple months in, and I'm like,"Yeah, it's good.
• 26:58
  You know, we had to get past, like, a lot of bleeding and cutting." And he looked at me, and he was like,"You know, you could've just said that it was too much on your mental health and you wanted to try a different approach." And I remember when he said that, and I was like I didn't even think of that." Nobody told me that.
• 27:15
  information- Right would've been useful yesterday- Yeah or, like, three months ago, or before- Right you even had the baby." So, I just think there's- Like, why isn't- it's lacking.
• 27:22
  Yeah we leave the hospital with this baby, and the focus turns...
• 27:25
  They don't let you leave the hospital until you have a 24-hour appointment for the baby at the pediatrician, but they'll see you in six weeks.
• 27:33
  It just, it doesn't make sense.
• 27:35
  I remember asking my pediatrician, who I'm, I love and she's, like, around our age, being like,"Can you take a look at this?" Like, on me.
• 27:43
  I'm like,"Can you, like, check me out'cause I, like-" Yeah don't feel so great." And being like,"Can you just, like, look at me w- as a doctor?
• 27:49
  Can you, like, use the stethoscope and listen to my lungs?" Like, since we're here.
• 27:54
  I also noticed that pediatricians now- Yes they also do the screening, though, which I thought was great because I remember for one of the times that I showed up with my kids, there was still a screening.
• 28:04
  Yep.
• 28:04
  And I said,"Wow, Okay, this is- Yeah the best and the best is back." I will say that the pediatricians are- The filter yeah, they're a really good in-between person and that they do give those assessments periodically, not just one time, which is great.
• 28:16
  And that might be because you are going to 1,000- Yes.
• 28:19
  Yeah appointments for your baby.
• 28:21
  That's also- Yeah a good place to maybe start.
• 28:23
  So if you did miss the preparation of maybe this- Yeah wasn't something that you dealt with or that you handled in the pregnancy, and you are a new mom- Yeah and you're still going to all of those appointments because it's, you know, every couple of weeks, every month, every six months, there are at least check-in points there, and- Mm-hmm that is an appropriate time to raise your hand so let's say you finally get flagged, and you are directed to somebody such as yourself.
• 28:51
  What does therapy look like in your practice for a new mom, and how do you use talk therapy and some- Mm-hmm of like your tools to help sort of, I guess, reroute these thoughts?
• 29:01
  'Cause you were saying earlier, like you'll have like a pop-off thought, and then it'll take you somewhere else.
• 29:06
  Like how do you get back in the driver's seat?
• 29:07
  Yeah.
• 29:07
  So in the beginning, it's heavily focused on obviously building an established relationship and rapport so that you feel safe enough with that therapist to say, you know,"I'm making these lists, and like these lists are really intricate, and I'm telling my mom how many times to tap the baby and give the binky, and I feel like I'm recognizing that might be weighing on me too much.
• 29:31
  But I also don't know how to pull it back a little bit.
• 29:35
  Like I don't know how to not do that because it feels comfortable to me because I feel like I'm in control," right?
• 29:43
  So then we would break it down even more of like what is that feeling of control providing you?
• 29:50
  Like when you sit and think about it, if your mom does all of those things what happens?
• 29:56
  And if your mom doesn't do any of those things, then what does your brain tell you happens?
• 30:01
  So it's a lengthy beginning process to identify where the anxiety is taking you over and becoming, like I said, debilitating.
• 30:11
  And then how do we start to unravel that a little bit, knowing that it might be uncomfortable, right?
• 30:17
  Of like,"I'm still gonna provide my mom with a checklist when she babysits, but I'm going to commit to making it one sheet, and I'm gonna sit with that and see what that feels like for my anxiety," right?
• 30:30
  Does it feel like something I can continue to work towards, or do I still feel like,"Oh, I didn't do enough, and now because I didn't do that, like the baby won't sleep well"?
• 30:41
  So- Really in the beginning, weekly therapy.
• 30:44
  A- and if you can only do bi-weekly, fine, but I always encourage moms when you first start with a therapist, do weekly therapy.
• 30:50
  A, you're gonna see if you guys are a good match by, three, four weeks in, if you feel comfortable.
• 30:55
  And B, there's probably so much happening in your world by the time you've been flagged, that it's not just the list-making that you're doing, that there's several other things that you're doing that need attention.
• 31:06
  And so by going weekly, you give yourself that space to make that 50 minutes all about you, and getting feedback from the therapist about how to manage these things and how to implement strategies and interventions to hopefully start to undo some of them.
• 31:22
  It also gives a therapist an opportunity to keep assessing.
• 31:25
  I always wanna normalize medication, and as a talk therapist, I know that talk therapy can do a great deal for a mom, I've seen moms make a complete 180 by doing talk therapy.
• 31:38
  sometimes three, four months in, we're seeing significant improvement.
• 31:42
  I had a mom recently say caught an anxious thought, and I was able to recognize that it was there, but then I was able to put it to bed by talking to my husband and listing out the facts, and I was able to go to sleep without that anxious thought." And so there's several things about talk therapy that work.
• 31:59
  But then your therapist is also there to continue to evaluate.
• 32:03
  You know, we've been working together for seven months, right?
• 32:07
  And you've made a lot of great strides, and I'm still noticing XYZ.
• 32:12
  Like, I wonder if you would be open to talking with an APRN.
• 32:16
  I think that it could be helpful to introduce a medication so that we could get you baseline, and then these interventions would have even more of an impact.
• 32:25
  So I guess a very long-winded way of saying establishing a really great relationship with your therapist so she is someone you feel comfortable saying,"I've tried these things and they're really helping, and I still feel like I'm riddled with anxiety." Now you have a professional who could say,"Okay, like I've been working with you.
• 32:44
  Here's what I've noticed.
• 32:45
  Here's what you're feeling.
• 32:46
  Make a referral so that this can work beautifully together." They're really there to almost be- Mm-hmm like a journal, you know?
• 32:53
  So that it's- Yeah you can brain dump your thoughts and somebody's helping you- Right keep track of all of those things, and it like- Mm-hmm a touchpoint weekly.
• 33:02
  And I also found therapy, once I was able to get myself help, and therapy was one of the number one things that I went and tried to do for myself.
• 33:12
  But it was also a really helpful tool for me to learn how to communicate what was actually going on.
• 33:19
  I feel like, again, back to expecting moms who are sleep deprived, depleted, beyond exhausted, the mental load of caring for everybody else, you're expecting them to have the mental bandwidth- to explain what exactly they're feeling to either their partner- or their friends or their family or anybody else who's trying to help.
• 33:40
  And I felt like I was always so far in that I couldn't even communicate what I needed or what- I was actually feeling.
• 33:48
  And therapy for me- I would brain dump, and then she would come back and say,"This is how I would go about- Mm-hmm this conversation with someone else so it doesn't sound like no one understands what you're going through." Yeah.
• 34:00
  Like,"This is how I would frame that." those conversations that I was able to have because of that were- Yeah the most helpful thing, I think, at the beginning, therapists are, like our number one skill is listening without interrupting.
• 34:14
  Right people will be like,"How do you sit with silence for so long?" I'm like,"I'm a therapist.
• 34:18
  Like, I can sit with silence for 40 minutes'cause I know eventually the thought will come." So we listen really well.
• 34:24
  So if you brain dump, we're listening to where the story is starting to get murky, right?
• 34:30
  And then we're able to give you feedback of like, when you don't do something like you've been doing, what does that feel like to you?
• 34:39
  Like, what is happening?
• 34:40
  Are you having racing thoughts?
• 34:42
  Are you all of a sudden having an intrusive thought of like, well, if she doesn't do that, something will happen.
• 34:47
  So you're brain dumping, and while you're brain dumping, we're unpacking and kind of regurgitating it to you in a way that, you've not been able to probably- Connecting.
• 34:57
  Connect the pieces think of it- for a multitude of reasons.
• 35:00
  And also just what I go back to in the beginning of like, if you've worked with a therapist pregnant, and then you get into postpartum, and you're like six weeks in and you're like,"I'm feeling really good," like then you don't need that line of support.
• 35:12
  But if you're six weeks in and you're like,"I'm drowning, and now I have this person that I can just tell that I'm drowning to because I've known her for six weeks, seven weeks." So yeah, a big fan of just getting connected with somebody early on, even if you don't think that you're gonna need it.
• 35:28
  I love that you also brought up medication- and I feel like I bring up like diabetes for instance.
• 35:35
  You can't just start eating healthy and cure your diabetes, or you can't just take medication and cure it.
• 35:43
  You have to do both in tandem, and I often relate the two of like the talk therapy and medication for anxiety- Mm-hmm with that other like medical disease, because I feel like you need- Totally two pieces sometimes, you know?
• 35:55
  Maybe not everybody needs two pieces.
• 35:57
  Yeah.
• 35:57
  But I think that it's important to share that sometimes you need a little bit more in order to move forward you know, working with a client for a significant amount of time, and they will come back week after week and they'll say,"You know, I really implemented what we talked about, and it helped to an extent.
• 36:15
  And then eventually I was kind of back in my spiral." Like, we're listening for how long is that going on for, right?
• 36:21
  Because you deserve to feel this baseline, like I said before, that, okay, I'm at this baseline, and now I feel like I could really implement, the strategy that we talked about, and like I'm having greater, longer periods of success.
• 36:34
  So yeah, I always encourage moms who, might be listening who are like,"Damn, I've been in therapy for like two years, and I still think that everything feels so heavy," I would consider having that conversation about, am I doing the most I can so that the picture looks complete for me?
• 36:52
  I also think just back to how healthcare is structured, and then we were talking about the Lindsey Clancy case, and obviously medication was a huge- part of that whole case, is a little bit alarming to kind of spread that- misinformation, if you will, about medication.
• 37:09
  But I think that, again, working with a therapist as the point person who can then loop in somebody who can- write prescriptions and kind of, like, update that person, the therapist is really acting as the point person because they know- your thoughts and they know what's going on in your head versus just going and seeing a psychiatrist who's- going to write you a prescription or at your six-week appointment saying,"I'm not feeling well," and your OB writes you a prescription.
• 37:38
  You kind of almost have somebody who has a handle- Yeah on the entire situation.
• 37:43
  So I think that that's an important kind of thing to distinguish, too, because you don't really just wanna be, like, running rampant in some of these- Right medications.
• 37:51
  No, I-- It should always be in conjunction.
• 37:54
  Yeah.
• 37:54
  Right.
• 37:55
  In conjunction, right.
• 37:56
  All right.
• 37:56
  So we talked a little bit about treatment, preparing ahead.
• 38:00
  I wanna talk about finding joy.
• 38:03
  I said this in the beginning, but you always hear those sayings like,"It goes so fast.
• 38:08
  It goes so fast." Like,"Enjoy these days." Like, I've never heard somebody the same age as me give that advice.
• 38:15
  It always came from, a grandmother or a mother, and probably those people found joy at some point in their life.
• 38:23
  But it is very hard to find joy- in early days of motherhood, especially when you have these intrusive- thoughts, racing thoughts.
• 38:30
  If you were somebody that was, a career woman or a high achiever, and then you become a mother and you're not necessarily getting the same, feeling of achievement when you're parenting your kids, and then you have multiple kids and you feel very spread thin.
• 38:44
  There's a lot of, guilt if you're not feeling joy, and then when you're finally feeling like, you know- Mm two feet on the ground, solid, and you're ready to experience it and you look back and you're like,"Well, shit, like, for 10 years I didn't enjoy this." So I love this whole idea of- Mm-hmm finding joy again- Mm-hmm without the pressure of it.
• 39:05
  Yeah.
• 39:06
  I always say lately on my page, it has definitely taken a turn on Instagram to how can we just learn to be present, like, wherever we're at in motherhood?
• 39:16
  And I always preface that with, like, in the absence of significant mental health issues, right?
• 39:22
  'Cause when you're talking about...
• 39:23
  If somebody said to you when you said you were riddled with anxiety, like,"Well, just, enjoy it.
• 39:28
  Enjoy the fact that your mom is watching your baby.
• 39:31
  Like, you're gonna miss these days." You'd be like,"What?
• 39:33
  Y- like, that's not helpful to me." So I think what would have been helpful to me is to hear,"I see that you are having a hard time enjoying- this phase of your life because this is- Yeah what's going on- Yeah with you right now." Almost the permission.
• 39:47
  Looking for permission to not have to, yeah.
• 39:50
  Yeah.
• 39:51
  Finding joy, I think you can really shift your perspective about what joy looks like in each season if there isn't something significant like anxiety or depression.
• 40:01
  And if there is, then toggling off of what you said, of just how do you help that mother know this is what it looks like right now, and it's not always gonna look this way for you, but I'm here.
• 40:14
  This is the moment that you're living now, and I recognize that.
• 40:16
  And like, sometimes moms just need another mom to say like,"It's shitty." Like,"It's shitty that this has been your experience, and I'm here for you." But I think in the absence of anxiety and depression, you can shift what joy looks like and how you experience joy, and especially in the early years of motherhood when you are so wrapped up in either caring for babies or toddlers, or you have a million different activities going on.
• 40:39
  And I didn't learn it, to your point, like everyone who's ever said it to me has been a grandmother or older.
• 40:45
  But my oldest is nine now, and I find that I'm slowly entering that, like I just wanna live for now, like with them at these ages, at the age I am, and I know that it's not gonna look peaceful all the time.
• 40:59
  I know it's gonna look chaotic.
• 41:00
  I know that we're gonna have moments where like it is nuts and maybe I'm shouting.
• 41:04
  But like, it's meant to be fun.
• 41:06
  It's meant to be crazy.
• 41:08
  Like, that's the season that we're living in right now.
• 41:10
  The other day I went for a walk with my girlfriend, and we walked past this playground that we used to take the kids to.
• 41:15
  Our oldest are 13.
• 41:17
  And I got, like, all weepy.
• 41:18
  I'm like,"Oh, my God.
• 41:20
  Am I one of those old ladies that walks past the playground and was like,'Remember those days?'" But I remember being at that playground and also being like,"Thank God I just- Yeah made it here today." Even though I have, like, good memories of my kids, like, running around the playground, like, chances are I probably went to the playground because I was- Right gonna lose my mind if I stayed in the house any longer.
• 41:42
  And I remember that too.
• 41:43
  Like, I don't...
• 41:44
  for any new mom listening, like, I don't want you to think that, like, my times with my kids were only, like, these highlights.
• 41:50
  Like, the memory does not get lost that I was, you know- those were difficult times.
• 41:56
  but now as they get older, and I'm so much more aware of our time that we have together, you know, as they're getting older, it's so much more important to me to embrace this season and to find joy in chaos, in, try to, like, let- have less of that, like, perfectionist mentality and more of a- Mm-hmm this is where we're at right now.
• 42:19
  And that you just said it, like, it doesn't have to look perfect.
• 42:22
  if you go into it with that idea of, like, it is not going to look perfect, right?
• 42:26
  speaking as my own experience, I have four kids.
• 42:28
  Like, I'm usually three minutes late to things, and that's just what our life looks like right now.
• 42:33
  It's a lot to get all of us out the door, and I used to really stress myself and, hold that,"It's on me.
• 42:40
  It's my fault," and then we're not getting out, and I'm shouting at them.
• 42:43
  Instead of just embracing, it is crazy right now, and, that's the point.
• 42:48
  Because now, and I'm similar, you know, my daughter's not 13 yet, but she's nine, and I'm just like,"Damn, I really wish that I had this mentality." I have this mentality now for my 22-month-old, which is great for him, but, it was missing with her because I was so caught up in just trying to get it all right.
• 43:05
  And, the sleep, you know, sleep training was a big thing for me with her, and, I still lay with her at night.
• 43:10
  So it's like, what was that for?
• 43:11
  Like, I, I should've just embraced that she needed me to hold her.
• 43:14
  So I do obviously think you get, more wisdom as your kids get older.
• 43:19
  But I think for the moms who are in the thick of it, you can learn to do that when they're little too.
• 43:24
  Do you have-- and again, I like how you preface, like without any serious medical- Yeah things going on without the postpartum depression, anxiety, if that has been at bay or controlled, how-- what are ways that you can coach young moms or moms with young children to find joy- I am currently in the, like halfway through a challenge that I'm doing with moms.
• 43:47
  It's called The Shift.
• 43:49
  And it's really focused on learning to romanticize and be present in the life you're living and not just surviving it.
• 43:56
  And a huge part of the program in the first three weeks is learning just to notice what's happening around you and to recognize when things trigger you to enter into this like fight or flight or survival or white-knuckling it.
• 44:11
  What are you noticing in your body?
• 44:13
  Are you racing your kids through bath time?
• 44:16
  Are you really not present in the moment and just thinking of your mental to-do list?
• 44:20
  And the feedback that I've gotten so far from these moms, and again, it's support, it's not therapy, so it's absent of any significant mental health issues, is just,"I've never really noticed how I acted during the morning rush until I started paying attention to how I was acting.
• 44:35
  And I've noticed that I've slowed down, and like I notice that my daughter is picking up on me slowing down." So I do offer that type of work, but it's not therapy.
• 44:46
  It's support.
• 44:47
  And again, the feedback that I'm getting is like just by simply pausing and taking a second to recognize what's happening, I'm picking up on things that I'm doing that I don't really like that I do, and I want to learn a different way of doing it.
• 45:00
  So it's structured to be six weeks so that we can go through the course of it.
• 45:05
  But it's been fun to see moms making progress by just simply noticing what they're doing in their every day that they're like,"I don't wanna do that.
• 45:13
  Like I actually wanna be present.
• 45:14
  I don't wanna get frustrated- Right with him putting his shoes on.
• 45:17
  He's two.
• 45:18
  Of course he's frustrated." so I think what I would say is like can you just notice an area of your life that you tend to...
• 45:26
  You know, like even your example of the park, like you're there because you needed to get out of the house.
• 45:30
  Like can you just notice your kids playing at the park and how old they are and how old you are, and that it's not forever.
• 45:36
  Everything is a phase.
• 45:38
  Well, I know you kept bringing up Christina's list from earlier in the podcast, but it was almost like when she stopped doing the list, the baby had the same outcome of sleep.
• 45:48
  Like- but she had to, like, give herself the permission to be like,"Okay, we're gonna trial this, no list, and see what happens." So with this, group of moms that you're working with, when they pause for a second and then they don't behave a or they don't do something Like a controlling behavior, and then they start to realize, like nothing changes.
• 46:05
  Like, so why do you have to create- so much extra work for you?
• 46:08
  Why is there a rush?
• 46:10
  What happens- when you, like- Yeah.
• 46:11
  One of the moms said that to your point, she noticed that she stopped doing something just to see, what the outcome would be, and she's like,"All of a sudden, I really latched onto that, like, it's really not that serious." the world did not implode.
• 46:24
  May be stressful, may be frustrating, like those things still happen, but it's really not that serious.
• 46:30
  I can teach myself to slow down.
• 46:31
  Like the dog is barking right now.
• 46:33
  It's really not gonna be that serious.
• 46:35
  We can edit it out.
• 46:37
  if that had happened, I think, to Christina and I 18 months ago- Yeah we would've been like,"Oh, my God." You just learn to roll with it, right?
• 46:43
  It just will happen.
• 46:44
  Why does this always happen to me?
• 46:46
  Like, you know, and then you like, the, it just goes in that- Yes trajectory.
• 46:51
  I also think that, women are having children later in life.
• 46:54
  People go through IVF.
• 46:56
  they try so hard to have a baby, and then you have this baby, and then you're like, this isn't what I signed up for." And then there's, this whole other guilt associated with it.
• 47:04
  How can you help coach a mother that's having these unhealthy thoughts?
• 47:09
  Like, I wanted this baby.
• 47:10
  I should be grateful for this baby.
• 47:12
  It could be worse, right?
• 47:13
  Like, I, I should be able to deal with this.
• 47:17
  You can still, like, love your baby deeply, but then feel very overwhelmed- Mm and resentful of the situation and all of those things.
• 47:24
  I think the most important thing for me to realize was, and I said this a hundred times on this podcast, is that I had to get over the hump knowing that two things can be true at the same time.
• 47:35
  Yes.
• 47:35
  Like, that was something that my brain did not comprehend until you could have two conflicting- Mm-hmm thoughts at the same exact time.
• 47:44
  You can be so grateful that you are a mother, especially if you are someone that struggled, but also find this time period- Yes extremely difficult.
• 47:55
  And you can experience resentment and, stress around it, and those things can happen at the same time.
• 48:01
  So, you mean the good mom trap too, just to talk about like the, what defines good mom?
• 48:07
  Because you're having those coexisting feelings, that automatically means I'm not a good mom.
• 48:12
  I'm not fit to be their mom.
• 48:14
  Content that I used to do a couple years back when I first started getting into this space was you are the best mom for your baby.
• 48:21
  That was like one of my first posts that ever went viral, because I think we forget that like regardless of what I'm experiencing, I still am the best mother for my baby, even if I feel all these things or like I'm thinking about my old life and the ease of my old life, and I have a little bit of resentment'cause I lost that ease as soon as I had a baby, or this didn't turn out the way that I expected it to, and like I feel frustration around that.
• 48:46
  None of that ever really indicates the type of mother that you are, right?
• 48:52
  And with the coexisting stuff, there's tons of things that coexist in motherhood, such as desperately wanting a break from your children, but also wanting to be with them all the time.
• 49:03
  Like, that doesn't make any sense.
• 49:05
  Mm-mm.
• 49:05
  Like, you beg for- Yeah you beg for a break.
• 49:07
  It's, I know.
• 49:07
  You wanna be away from them.
• 49:08
  Yeah.
• 49:08
  And then you, we're taking our big two to a concert tomorrow night, and we're leaving our little two at home, and when we have all four, it's extremely stressful for my husband and I because we still have runners, as I call them, right?
• 49:19
  So, they would be the hardest kids to have at a concert.
• 49:23
  And I'm like,"Oh, I don't know, like we- maybe we should have brought all four." And then I'm like,"No." Like, how could I have wanted to do something so bad and then also want to bring them?
• 49:33
  So you have to make space in motherhood for all the coexisting feelings that are gonna come up, because they're not just gonna be tied to what you're saying of like feeling resentful, of like,"I thought this would be easier and it's not," and like,"I must, you know, that must mean I'm a shitty mom." that's not what it means.
• 49:48
  It just means that you're human, and because you're human you're gonna have these feelings that just don't make any sense.
• 49:54
  it's like the mom who desperately wants to have a baby and hates every minute of being pregnant, and she's like,"Oh, I should be grateful," no, you don't, you're not having a good experience.
• 50:02
  It doesn't mean that you love your baby any less or you're gonna love them any less once they're here.
• 50:07
  So, do not get stuck in that trap.
• 50:10
  I think it's a hard hump to get over, but once you do and you just, realize that these two things can both be happening in your mind at the same time, it is very refreshing to just be like, it's fine.
• 50:23
  Like, it's fine to have both of those thoughts at the same time, and one doesn't take- Yeah away from the other.
• 50:28
  It, b- it's a weird place to be in because if you're somebody who likes things like black or white, it's, you're in the gray.
• 50:35
  'Cause you're balancing- Right two different emotions all the time.
• 50:37
  I like that term, coexisting feelings.
• 50:39
  Coexisting, yeah.
• 50:40
  It's like I remember when I first used to get my kids to sleep in their own room.
• 50:43
  As soon as I finally got them to go to bed at night, I would lay in bed and I would scroll- Look at pictures look at pictures of them from the day.
• 50:49
  I remember my husband being like,"Get off your phone." stop looking at freaking pictures of them.
• 50:53
  You finally got them out of our bed.
• 50:55
  Now they're in their bed.
• 50:56
  Why are you- Yeah looking at pictures of them?" It's just how we're hardwired.
• 50:59
  It's just how I'm wired.
• 51:00
  And we have four kids also, so a lot of times we do like A team, B team.
• 51:04
  Yeah.
• 51:04
  Like bigs and littles.
• 51:05
  Yeah.
• 51:05
  I'll take, like we'll only take two somewhere- Yep and I always felt bad for the other two.
• 51:10
  But I'm, you bring up a good point.
• 51:11
  Like- Yeah it's okay.
• 51:14
  You can want them there- Yes and not want them there- Yeah at the same time.
• 51:17
  Yeah.
• 51:18
  And you don't have to feel guilty about it.
• 51:19
  You know, guilt is another thing that really plays a huge role in a mom, and like the, the good mom and feeling guilty.
• 51:26
  And like there's a huge difference between being guilty and feeling guilty.
• 51:30
  So I think that this was- like such very important information and a very good first step- Yeah for this conversation.
• 51:38
  If a mom is listening to this and, and she recognizes herself in this conversation, in any part of this conversation, what would be your recommended first step?
• 51:47
  Yeah, I mean, I would always consider connecting with a therapist because as we said, like a therapist is just a really good third party, doesn't know you at all, doesn't know your story at all, and you can just kinda lay out everything that you've been experiencing and get feedback on whether or not...
• 52:04
  You know, most therapists like myself, we do intro calls.
• 52:07
  So it's a 20-minute call to talk about- what's been going on.
• 52:11
  Tell me about your pregnancy.
• 52:12
  Tell me how old your kids are.
• 52:13
  Tell me about your day-to-day, what feels really hard right now.
• 52:16
  So if you find a therapist, like see if they offer something like that so that you can just kind of put it out there and see what a professional would recommend.
• 52:25
  I would always start there, and I would always recommend finding somebody like myself that has specific training in working with moms because it's important to, you know- It's different.
• 52:37
  Yeah.
• 52:37
  If you're- struggling with substances, you wanna see someone who specializes in substances, right?
• 52:42
  So we're gonna close out our episode.
• 52:45
  We close out every episode with, we share our Pink Spotlight.
• 52:48
  So Christine and I every week share something that we are enjoying.
• 52:52
  So this could be a tip, this could be a quote, this could be a product, this could be like a TV show- Mm-hmm We say like person, place, thing, tip, mantra So we would love if you would share one with us.
• 53:02
  We can go first,'cause I don't wanna put you on the spot.
• 53:06
  How about you, T?
• 53:07
  You can kick us off I know what I'm gonna share, and you're gonna, like, think that I'm, like, so sappy.
• 53:11
  I'm actually, like, not sappy, but I am gonna be.
• 53:13
  So my pink spotlight this week is actually Christina Tirabassi.
• 53:17
  Because you've been helping me- Oh, you're gonna hate mine.
• 53:19
  No.
• 53:19
  You've been helping me so much with work lately.
• 53:22
  And you're such a good mentor, and you're, really good at...
• 53:24
  'Cause I've been doing more, content creation, socials, humor, and she's so encouraging- Oh and so helpful.
• 53:29
  And like, it's does not get lost on me that I have a friend that I'm, doing more of, what she does in her work, and she's, been helping me with it, and I really appreciate it.
• 53:37
  I love- It, being able to share this with you it's been so helpful.
• 53:39
  I'm like, oh my God, Christina made this for me.
• 53:41
  She did this for me.
• 53:42
  No, I'm having fun because our kids- are different ages, so sometimes I'll see something or I'll have an idea, and I'm like,"Well, I can't really do this because it doesn't really make sense." Like, I'm not the one driving my kids- around all over the place, like- for 100 million activities.
• 53:55
  And I'll see something funny, and I'll be like,"Oh, sh- T should do this, like, because this makes more sense for her." And but I love it.
• 54:02
  Yeah, but you should get your flowers.
• 54:03
  You are a great mentor.
• 54:05
  Aw.
• 54:05
  Thank you very good at your job, and yeah, I really appreciate it.
• 54:09
  And I love- Thank you having you along with me for this part.
• 54:12
  Like, we're building our businesses- Yeah together and separately.
• 54:16
  Uh-huh.
• 54:16
  And I, I love it.
• 54:18
  Yeah.
• 54:18
  I feel like this has been great.
• 54:18
  You're helping me, but even- Aw with my own personal business- Aw you've been helping me a lot lately, so.
• 54:22
  I...
• 54:22
  thank you so much.
• 54:23
  Go ahead, share your gloss- Mine is gonna suck.
• 54:24
  No- or- No, it's gonna- you're gonna laugh Hemorrhoid cream.
• 54:28
  So I think I shared when I was like,"Oh, I'm going to the grocery store," this was, like, my pink spotlight la- a couple weeks ago, was like, I'm getting out of the house after drop-off, and, like, sometimes I go to Whole Foods and, like, that is my, like, it's like the excitement of the day.
• 54:41
  And I saw this reel that was like, if the best part of your day is, like, a solo errand, like, to a grocery store or, like, something like that, then, like, have kids.
• 54:51
  You know what I mean?
• 54:52
  Because, like, now you're like,"That's..." And so I go, like, once a week and I try to go to Whole Foods, and then I love their coffee bar.
• 55:00
  Oh.
• 55:01
  Like, it's like a, slept on little spot, and they have delicious matcha.
• 55:06
  And they got me hooked on the Dubai chocolate syrup that you put in either coffee or matcha.
• 55:13
  They had it there.
• 55:14
  And I- literally was like,"This is the best matcha I've ever had," and I went back and was like,"What is the exact syrup?" And she was like,"It's you and one other girl that's been, like, coming here and getting the Dubai chocolate." Do they sell it there at Whole Foods?
• 55:27
  They s- they sell it on Amazon.
• 55:28
  Oh.
• 55:29
  So I we- I went and ordered it, and it is delicious.
• 55:32
  It's like pistachio dark chocolate.
• 55:34
  Yum.
• 55:34
  So, like, that flavoring in coffee or matcha is so good, and it is the highlight of my morning.
• 55:41
  Like, I cannot wait to get out of bed because I'm like,"This is so good." So that is my pink spotlight, but I love you two.
• 55:48
  I think mine is what I shared before of being able to take my two big kids to something, because we're always all together.
• 55:54
  And so it's gonna be crazy to only have them in, like, a full circle moment, because we had them very back to back in the sense of both were two under two.
• 56:04
  And it will be weird- to be just the four of us.
• 56:07
  But something about that, again, coexisting with, like, it just feels like it's gonna be a lot of fun to have them experience a moment with us without us asking them to help with their siblings or do something for their siblings.
• 56:20
  so that's my spotlight for the end of the week.
• 56:23
  You mentioned it too, T, on the podcast, that you would divide the kids and you'd call them the A team and the B team.
• 56:28
  And like I have two under two- Mm-hmm so mine are very close in age, and it's a boy and a girl.
• 56:33
  Mm-hmm.
• 56:33
  And I feel very, like I have like very strong feelings on separating them- Yeah to do anything.
• 56:39
  But I'm like- Definitely we really should be able to like take him.
• 56:42
  He's a little bit older.
• 56:43
  He could handle something a little bit different than her, and sometimes we hold him back- Yep.
• 56:48
  Yep because she might not be ready- Yep to do something.
• 56:51
  And so I do think that was like really good advice to kind of- Yeah like it's okay.
• 56:55
  It's okay to do that.
• 56:56
  Yeah.
• 56:56
  Yeah.
• 56:57
  We took the boys to Disney and left the girls home, and I remember people being like,"You're leaving the girls home?
• 57:04
  Bah, bah, bah, bah." I'm like,"Trust me, when I take them in three years, they're not even gonna remember that trip.
• 57:10
  Never mind like pushing two strollers around this first trip.
• 57:13
  Yeah, I'm leaving them home." Right.
• 57:15
  They're two years old.
• 57:16
  Mm-hmm.
• 57:16
  I'm not taking them to Disney.
• 57:17
  So I'm a huge proponent of- Yeah, that's- A team, B teams- That is really good one-on-ones- Yeah.
• 57:22
  Lunches.
• 57:23
  Yeah.
• 57:23
  Like as much time as you can like squeeze in with one- Totally especially when you have four.
• 57:27
  So I'm excited for you.
• 57:28
  Yeah.
• 57:28
  That's really great advice.
• 57:29
  Well, Yes, thanks for having me just so helpful.
• 57:31
  I think that we've only like scratched the surface of what's needed- Yeah for this conversation, but we appreciate your platform and all that you stand for and all that you're pushing.
• 57:41
  And I think this was like a really great collaboration- Mm-hmm'cause I think we're all on the same page about what women need to be talking about and being comfortable having- Yeah those uncomfortable conversations, and we're all here to do that and all sharing that message.
• 57:55
  So we appreciate you so much.
• 57:56
  Can you tell our listeners where to find you?
• 57:58
  Yes.
• 57:58
  On Instagram, it's MommeBeWell.
• 58:01
  Yep.
• 58:02
  MommeBeWell.
• 58:03
  Or MommeBeWell.com is my website.
• 58:04
  You guys need to give her a follow.
• 58:06
  She has amazing content and is really speaking all the messages that we're so appreciative of.
• 58:11
  So thank you so much.
• 58:13
  It was so nice- Thank you guys.
• 58:14
  Yeah to meet you finally and- Thank you have you on here, and we're so appreciative of you.
• 58:19
  Thank you.
• 58:19
  Thank you.
• 58:20
  See you all next week.
• 58:21
  Bye.
• 58:21
  Bye.