Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1092 - When the 3 E's Don't Work [R]

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#1092 - When the 3 E's Don't Work [R] · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.
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  Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just
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  Speaker 2: once answers me ow.
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  Speaker 1: Hello. This is doctor Justin Colson. Welcome to the Happy
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  Speaker 1: Families Podcast. We're so glad to have you here. I'm
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  Speaker 1: here with Kylie, my wife and mom to our six daughters. Kylie,
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  Speaker 1: we received an email to podcasts at happy families dot
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  Speaker 1: com dot you. We prefer voice messages from happy families
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: dot com dot you on the podcast's link. You just
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: press the button and talk to us. That's what we prefer.
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  Speaker 1: But this was such a good question that even though
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  Speaker 1: it came vi our email, we decided we were going
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  Speaker 1: to answer it today anyway, A question from somebody who
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  Speaker 1: is really struggling, and I thought it would be good
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  Speaker 1: to have you involved in the conversation as well. Why
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  Speaker 1: don't you.
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  Speaker 2: Listen because I actually thought you had written this question.
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  Speaker 1: No, no, no, This comes from someone called Krinne. It
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  Speaker 1: was Karin who asked the question, not me.
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  Speaker 2: Kareem said, we're currently facing difficulties with our ten year
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  Speaker 2: old daughter.
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  Speaker 1: Now I know why you thought that. I wrote that.
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  Speaker 2: She's exhibiting a strong sense of stubbornness, particularly when it
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  Speaker 2: comes to setting boundaries. Instead of engaging in discussions about
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  Speaker 2: why we've established certain limits, she reacts with screaming an
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  Speaker 2: outright refusal to listen. Even when we attempt to discuss
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  Speaker 2: the matter calmly, she becomes defensive and refuses to communicate.
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  Speaker 2: We're open to hearing her perspective and providing her with autonomy,
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  Speaker 2: but she seems unwilling to engage in dialogue. Despite our
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  Speaker 2: efforts to address the issue at a more suitable time,
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  Speaker 2: she persists in avoiding the conversation altogether. She often responds
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  Speaker 2: with I just want to be left alone. We're trying
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  Speaker 2: to build connection to enable these conversations, but she just
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  Speaker 2: doesn't want to connect. We're seeking guidance on how to
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  Speaker 2: effectively communicate with her and navigate these challenging moments.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so what do you do when the three e's
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  Speaker 1: don't work? Colie? For those who are not familiar with
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  Speaker 1: the three effective discipline, this is a model that I
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  Speaker 1: developed about ten years ago now, maybe more based on
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  Speaker 1: the work that's been done in self determination theory, where
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  Speaker 1: we're trying to support children's basic psychological needs, and the
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  Speaker 1: way we do that, of course, is by having them
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  Speaker 1: to feel like there is a positive relationship between the
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  Speaker 1: two of us, says connection by helping them to identify
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  Speaker 1: how they can be competent, by giving them a reasonable
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  Speaker 1: structure for how to move forward, and by supporting their autonomy,
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  Speaker 1: that is, by giving them the opportunity to develop solutions
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  Speaker 1: that are in harmony with their values. And this is
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  Speaker 1: the critical thing. A lot of people think that autonomy
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  Speaker 1: means giving the kids free rein but autonomy means that
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  Speaker 1: I'm acting volitionally. I know what I value, I know
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  Speaker 1: what's important. I'm acting in that direction. We've got kids who,
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  Speaker 1: from time to time have made it very clear that
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  Speaker 1: they don't want to engage in a three ease conversation.
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  Speaker 1: They don't want us to explore their world, explain what
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  Speaker 1: we expect, and empower them to find solutions. That's what
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  Speaker 1: the THREEE model is because it supports those basic psychological
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  Speaker 1: needs Before we dive into any of the answers that
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  Speaker 1: I've started to put together for this podcast, what's your
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  Speaker 1: typical response when the kids don't want to dive into
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  Speaker 1: a three e's conversation with us?
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  Speaker 2: Over the years, I have discovered that time is a
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  Speaker 2: really important friend. With these conversations, allowing our kids the
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  Speaker 2: space that they need to kind of just have some
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  Speaker 2: time away is important, but it's also important for me
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  Speaker 2: as well. I get really really caught up in wanting
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  Speaker 2: to fix things in the moment without recognizing that sometimes
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  Speaker 2: things don't get fixed in the moment.
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  Speaker 1: Right and the whole thing there. Really, this is pretty
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  Speaker 1: much where I was going to go anyway, and I'm
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  Speaker 1: so glad that you said it. Fundamentally, the reason that
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  Speaker 1: we need to give enough time and not always fix
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  Speaker 1: things in the here and now right here, we've got
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  Speaker 1: to talk about it, we've got to sort it out.
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  Speaker 1: We need to know where we're going from this point on.
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  Speaker 1: The reason is that equation that I've developed a number
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  Speaker 1: of years ago as well, which is that high emotions
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  Speaker 1: equals low intelligence. That is, the more emotional you are,
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  Speaker 1: the more stupid you are. And that's what happens with
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  Speaker 1: our kids, and it happens with us. The more emotional
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  Speaker 1: we get, the less able we are to have a
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  Speaker 1: reasonable conversation and find solutions. And ultimately, what we're trying
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  Speaker 1: to do is that's what discipline is, right. Discipline ultimately
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  Speaker 1: is helping the kids to find appropriate solutions so that
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  Speaker 1: we don't keep on having these these challenges and these difficulties.
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  Speaker 2: So I guess, as an add on to that, the
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  Speaker 2: acknowledgment is that sometimes time is a few minutes, sometimes
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  Speaker 2: it's a few hours, sometimes it's a few days, and
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  Speaker 2: sometimes it's a few weeks.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, you've kind of skipped to the very bottom of
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  Speaker 1: oh yeah, like of all the things that I've got.
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  Speaker 1: So here's my wrap up. Let's go straight to the
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  Speaker 1: end and then we'll sort of fill in the middle.
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  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I mean the three things that I was
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  Speaker 1: going to say at number one. You don't have to
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  Speaker 1: do the three's all the time. Sometimes it's okay to
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  Speaker 1: step in his parents say, I'd love to explore and
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  Speaker 1: explain it in the power, but this is just what
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  Speaker 1: we need to do. And as the parent, I'm going
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  Speaker 1: to be the prefrontal cortex and I'm just going to
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  Speaker 1: make this stuff happen. Okay, we don't want to do
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  Speaker 1: that very often, but from time to time, as a parent,
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  Speaker 1: you just do have to be the mean, cranky parent
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  Speaker 1: that gets stuff done.
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  Speaker 2: But I don't even think it's about being mean and
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  Speaker 2: kind of being forceful in the conversation.
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  Speaker 1: I use the wrong words it's really about holding a boundary.
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  Speaker 1: Sometimes as a parent you just have to say, I
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  Speaker 1: know you're sad, I know you don't want to do this,
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  Speaker 1: but this needs to be done.
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  Speaker 2: Some conversations are just hard, right They're hard. They're hard
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  Speaker 2: as an adult, let alone being a child. And the
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  Speaker 2: acknowledgment for me as a mum is I know you
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  Speaker 2: don't want to have this conversation, but when we're part
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  Speaker 2: of a family, sometimes we have to do these hard things.
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  Speaker 2: And I love how our family feels when we do X,
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  Speaker 2: Y and Z, but right now it doesn't feel great.
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  Speaker 2: Can you think about why it doesn't feel great and
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  Speaker 2: how we might work together to make it feel great again.
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  Speaker 1: And again, if you've got really high emotions, that's probably
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  Speaker 1: not going to work well because the kids are not
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  Speaker 1: going to play the game, they're not going to get
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  Speaker 1: involved in it. But so long as emotions are lower,
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  Speaker 1: you can definitely do that. I guess My point really, though,
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  Speaker 1: is you don't have to always do the three is
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  Speaker 1: if you did, you would be exhausted, and so would they.
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  Speaker 1: The second point, though, is you can do the threes
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  Speaker 1: in thirty seconds. It doesn't have to be a long
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  Speaker 1: drawn out session. So so long as emotions are cool,
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  Speaker 1: you can say, all right, I know that you don't
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  Speaker 1: want to clean up the house. I know that it
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  Speaker 1: just feels like it's so burdensome. Is there anything else, like,
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  Speaker 1: is there any other reason that you just don't want
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  Speaker 1: to be participating in helping right now? And listen, But
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  Speaker 1: because I want to play games? Okay, I get it.
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  Speaker 1: Everyone wants to play games. That's fair enough. We need
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  Speaker 1: to work together. Now you've gone from explore to explain
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  Speaker 1: we need to work together. What do you think we
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  Speaker 1: can do to make this happen in a way that
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  Speaker 1: we can all feel good about it, Like you can
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  Speaker 1: get that done in thirty seconds, in twenty seconds. It
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  Speaker 1: just takes practice. And this is the big thing with
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  Speaker 1: the three ees or any other parenting model. Everything takes
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  Speaker 1: practice compared to yelling, time out, smacking, and doing the
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  Speaker 1: old school style of parenting.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. So with our ten year old, one of the
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  Speaker 2: conversation pieces I have with her is I want you
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  Speaker 2: to be able to do that too. We've just got
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  Speaker 2: to get this done. So how can we work together
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  Speaker 2: to get this done quickly?
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  Speaker 1: So you can get back to that and so long
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  Speaker 1: as she's not emotional, we get good responses. If she
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  Speaker 1: is emotional, it takes four hours. Yes, And I think
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  Speaker 1: that's the reality. Right. You've said this already. But as
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  Speaker 1: I said, the very last point that I was going
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  Speaker 1: to make in this podcast, and we're making it sort
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  Speaker 1: of halfway through, is sometimes it will take weeks or
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  Speaker 1: more to get a resolution because emotions can be really big.
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  Speaker 1: And while the process is not flawed, our practice is,
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  Speaker 1: and our brains are, and our emotions are, and our
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  Speaker 1: children are, and we are Therefore. I remember one of
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  Speaker 1: the big blops that we had in our home without firstborn,
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  Speaker 1: when she was only about thirteen fourteen, revolved around her
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  Speaker 1: dishonesty with technology use, and she lost her access to
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  Speaker 1: devices for a little while until we were able to
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  Speaker 1: resolve the issue. She was so emotional every time we
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  Speaker 1: talked about it, and I would say, we can't have
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  Speaker 1: the conversation when you're emotional. Let's try again tomorrow, and
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  Speaker 1: I reckon it took three months. Maybe it wasn't that long,
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  Speaker 1: maybe it was six weeks, but whatever it was, it
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  Speaker 1: took a long time before she was finally able to
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  Speaker 1: regulate her emotions enough to have a conversation. Sensibly where
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  Speaker 1: we could come up with a solution that we could
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  Speaker 1: feel good about. I think this is the critical thing, Like,
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  Speaker 1: our kids need time to digest it. They need time
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  Speaker 1: to work out what they value, especially especially if you're
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  Speaker 1: dealing with neurodivergent kids, right like if neurodiversity is in
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  Speaker 1: your home, the new concepts and new ideas can take
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  Speaker 1: a long time to digest. There's a lot of rigidity,
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  Speaker 1: there's a lot of certainty, there's a lot of my
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  Speaker 1: way or no way going black and white, absolutely, and
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  Speaker 1: so we've just got to be willing to sit in
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  Speaker 1: that uncomfortable space and wait for the kids to work
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  Speaker 1: through this, to figure this stuff out.
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  Speaker 2: There are a couple of other things you did want
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  Speaker 2: to talk about, but I saw you under and we're
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  Speaker 2: kind of stutted from the end to the beginning again,
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  Speaker 2: so have a chat about them. I think one of
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  Speaker 2: the most important things that I have learned with our
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  Speaker 2: ten year old specifically, is information overload. I have conversations
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  Speaker 2: with her and I think it's really clear and you know,
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  Speaker 2: pretty concise the things that I want her to understand,
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  Speaker 2: and she has gotten so good at articulating, and she
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  Speaker 2: will say in those moments mum, you're talking too much.
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  Speaker 2: Like literally, those are her words, Mum, you're talking too much.
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  Speaker 2: I can't I can't take it all in. And at
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  Speaker 2: that point she's pretty she's pretty intensely overloaded. But I
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  Speaker 2: really appreciate that she's able to say it, because when
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  Speaker 2: she says it, I go, oh, take a step back. Okay,
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  Speaker 2: let's let's go back to the beginning, or let's just
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  Speaker 2: leave things for a little while. You need some time
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  Speaker 2: to regulate. I need some time to give you a hug,
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  Speaker 2: whatever it takes, so that we don't have that emotional overload.
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  Speaker 1: So the short version of what you just said is
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  Speaker 1: be really clear in your own mind about what you
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  Speaker 1: want to communicate, and then get in and out as
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  Speaker 1: fast as you can. Felt like it to be less
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  Speaker 1: is more. It felt like it about ninety minutes for
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: you to say, don't give too much information. A couple
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  Speaker 1: of other things, be okay with your kids being uncomfortable,
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  Speaker 1: and be okay with being a bit uncomfortable yourself. Sometimes
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  Speaker 1: as a parent, you just do have to hold back
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  Speaker 1: ground until your child gets the point. Kids need limits, boundaries, structure,
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  Speaker 1: framework systems to follow so that they can feel confident
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  Speaker 1: and safe, and if they're pushing against that, it's normal.
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  Speaker 1: That's what they do. Be okay with their discomfort. You
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  Speaker 1: don't have to fix their emotions. Early in our relationship
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  Speaker 1: or not too early, sort of a dozen years ago
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  Speaker 1: or something, I remember saying to you, I'm not going
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  Speaker 1: to be upset just because you are, and that I
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  Speaker 1: could have said it nicer. I didn't say it the
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  Speaker 1: best way possible. I kind of blew it that way.
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  Speaker 1: But what I was essentially saying is I'm not responsible
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  Speaker 1: for whether you feel lousy or not, because I wasn't
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  Speaker 1: in that case. It's not like I'd done something. You
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  Speaker 1: were just having a blue sort of week. Therefore, I'm
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  Speaker 1: not going to feel bad because you're feeling bad. I'm
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  Speaker 1: going to be supportive and loving and caring and empathic,
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  Speaker 1: and I want you to feel good. But if you're
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  Speaker 1: having a bad day, I'm not going to let that
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  Speaker 1: ruin mine.
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  Speaker 2: So I'm going to kind of just twist your words
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  Speaker 2: a little bit there. Because the one thing that I
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  Speaker 2: really felt so important, and it's something that was not
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  Speaker 2: modeled to me as a child, but the acknowledgment that
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  Speaker 2: when our children are in those hard spaces and there
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  Speaker 2: is a misalignment in values as we kind of navigate
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  Speaker 2: this challenge, whatever it happens to be the most important
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  Speaker 2: thing we can do is turn towards our children.
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  Speaker 1: So I sound like it wasn't very validating.
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  Speaker 2: Your acknowledgment was I'm not going to let your upset
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  Speaker 2: or your uncomfortability in whatever emotion you're dealing with change
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  Speaker 2: the way I interact with you. And that's exactly what
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  Speaker 2: it was. It was, I'm not going to let your sad,
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  Speaker 2: your whatever, your heaviness infiltrate the way I feel about
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  Speaker 2: me specifically, and therefore it allows me to love you
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  Speaker 2: the way I do all the time.
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  Speaker 1: You said, that's so much better than me. Yeah, the
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  Speaker 1: whole day was I love you like crazy. I'm so
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  Speaker 1: sorry that going through this, and I'm absolutely here for you.
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  Speaker 1: But once I leave the room, I'm going to go
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  Speaker 1: and get on with my stuff my way, because I
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  Speaker 1: can't be weighed down by it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. And we talk about emotions being contagious, right, and
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  Speaker 2: it's so easy for us to catch our children's emotions
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  Speaker 2: and vice versa. And when our kids are in this
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  Speaker 2: difficult place, how often our knee jerk reaction is to
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  Speaker 2: meet their emotions with more intensity. But what they actually
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  Speaker 2: need to know is that no matter what's going on,
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  Speaker 2: no matter how many times we have to sit down
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  Speaker 2: and have this hard conversation, no matter how many times
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  Speaker 2: we sit down, we don't get to the end of
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  Speaker 2: the conversation. I'm going to love you, and I'm going
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  Speaker 2: to keep loving you.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, love that. Let's wrap this up. I think
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  Speaker 1: it's fairly common with not just oppositional kids, but kids
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  Speaker 1: in general. Their instinct is to go with what they know,
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: to reject anything that we're saying, especially if it's new information,
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: and they have to really feel like it is their
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: choice to get on board with a new idea or not.
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: So if you're not getting anywhere at all with the
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: three e's, it's probably because your child is still feeling
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: coerced or still feeling emotional, and so trying to argue
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  Speaker 1: the pros and cons and trying to have a really
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: logically engagement with them is just not going to work.
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  Speaker 1: We need to make gentle suggestions. We need to listen
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  Speaker 1: and then back away and give them time to suggest.
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  Speaker 1: These conversations usually don't have to be fully resolved in
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: the moment on the spot. We really hope that's been helpful. Corinth,
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: Thanks so much for your question on The Happy Family's podcast,
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: which is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. If
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: you'd like more and fo about making your family happier,
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: visitors at happy families dot com, dot a