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Chosen Family · Gay Men Going Deeper

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Hello, everyone, and welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper. This is a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood where we talk about personal development, mental health, and sexuality. Today, I am your host. My name is Michael Diario. I am a life and wellness coach specializing in self confidence, sexuality and relationships. Today's episode, we are talking about Chosen Family. And this is a very uniquely personal episode for me because to help me with this topic, I have actually asked my own chosen family to join me. So if you're watching us on YouTube, this is who they are. I'll introduce them in just a sec. Right now, this is a real mind fuck for me, to be perfectly honest, because my coaching work world is coming together with my personal world, so I'm a little bit nervous. I just want to say that right off the top. So some of the things we're going to be talking about today on this episode are the importance of Chosen Family as something that's different from your biological family. We'll talk a little bit about family dynamics and how we are like a family in some ways, for better or worse. We're going to talk about how we navigate and overcome challenges like most families do. And of course, as we always do in the podcast, we want to share some tips and advice for those of you who want to nurture your own chosen family. So the idea for this episode came about when Matt and Reno and I were deciding the theme for the month of December, which is family. We've done a few episodes on that, and I thought, well, we have to talk about Chosen Family, because I think it's one of those things that's super important for the queer community, because a lot of guys out there don't have a supportive biological family, or maybe they have strained family relationships, or maybe their family's far away. And so Chosen Family can really fill that emotional and social support gap. At least it has for me and for a lot of people out there. And for those of you who even do have a good relationship with your biological family, Chosen Family is still important because these guys get to know me on a very different level, on a much more personal level. They get things that my biological family wouldn't get. They can share things with me and celebrate wins that others might not necessarily see as wins. And they just get the challenges, right? They just get it. So, without further ado, let me introduce these guys. And actually, can I just say you guys can unmute yourselves. Can I just say we've never done a zoom before? I think this is the first time we've ever Been on a zoom call together in all of the years that we've known each other. Yeah.
• 2:23
  Speaker B: I think we even managed the pandemic without doing one.
• 2:25
  Speaker A: Right. Yeah, I don't think we have. So this is the first. Okay, so, yes, let's start with Sean. Sean Collier. Sean. We have known each other for 20 plus years now, which is half of my lifetime. And so Sean knows all my secrets. I would say he knows me more than anyone else on this planet. Is this man right there. Then we also have Gavin Armstrong. Gavin, we've known each other for, I think, over 10 years now. It's been a long time. Yes. Gavin is probably, I say, the gayest person I know, and I say that with lots of love. We definitely get into a lot of mischief together, and that's all I'll say about that. And then we have Star Semper. Star I've known for the least amount of time, but the time that we have had together has been incredibly intense and wonderful. He's my partner, for those of you who don't know. He's the person that I live with. And so he sees the day to day side of me that no one else does. In fact, Star is actually. We're in the same house right now. Starr is downstairs and I'm upstairs. So together, putting these people together. These are my chosen family. This is some of my chosen family. These are the guys who have seen me at my best, for sure. And they've also seen me at my worst. Absolutely. And despite all that, they still love me, I think, most of the time. And what I will say is that these are the people that they know the full dimensional truth of me. We talk about authenticity a lot on this podcast, and vulnerability. These are the people that I can be my absolute, most raw self with. And they don't just see the mask, or they don't just see the polished version, or they don't just see whatever I want to put out there. They know the ugly bits too. And I love that they're still here for that. My walls can really come down with these guys. I can say, literally, I was thinking about this today, I can say, and I'm pretty sure you guys feel the same way. Literally anything that pops into my mind, I can say it. And I know that even if they do judge me, they're still going to love me, which is great. It's a wonderful thing to have that. Okay, so let's jump in. I want to give you guys a chance to introduce yourselves a little bit, but I want you to do so in the context of telling us how Chosen Family has been particularly helpful on your own journey. So think of your coming out, how you establish roots and developing a sense of belonging. And then I want to start this month. Star.
• 4:42
  Speaker C: Okay, thank you for the introduction. I would say that chosen family has been the most important thing for me since being an immigrant in a country with no real family, in a country, blood family. I would say chosen family has been my ultimate goal and moving cities. Actually, some of you may know I came from the Caribbean four years ago to Canada, and I moved to a very quiet city, a smaller city, I would say, in the East Coast, Atlantic, very fun mountain region. And then moving to Toronto maybe three years ago, I would say it was a nightmare at first because I was afraid and played small and felt very alone, knowing not many people, just Michael and just you guys at first. And I felt intimidated by the confidence of people around. And so it took a while, it took an effort on my part and a deliberate effort to really search out, seek out. I choose a family to build a community and make myself feel home in this huge city for me. And I would say that has helped me become the person I am today through growth and networking and building my own confidence. I would say I fit in now with Toronto World, and, yeah, now I have a group of chosen family that I call mine.
• 6:33
  Speaker A: You belong. You don't just fit in.
• 6:35
  Speaker C: Thank you. Yes, that's true.
• 6:38
  Speaker A: Gavin, tell us how Chosen Family has been part of your journey.
• 6:43
  Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you for having me. And this is a really important topic for me as well. I'm really grateful to be able to speak about it. Growing up was pretty miserable for me. I was tormented a lot by bullies. Grew up in a smaller town, and it was definitely more feminine and stood out and was harassed for that reason. So I didn't have a lot of friends. I spent a lot of time alone. And when I was in social circles, I felt that I had to be someone different. So I was always wearing a different mask and trying to act differently and just be quieter and try not to stand out just so I could survive, so I can not be harass. And that bled into my. My professional life. When I was working, I was always trying to be someone different and afraid to be my authentic self. And it's when I started to come to terms with my. My own sexuality and identity. And university is when I started to get friends who were like me and who had shared experiences like I had had. And when I was able to start to be More honest and live a more authentic self. I started being happy, which was such like an unusual feeling. And I actually was able to grow and become more of person who I am today. And so I think that it's being around these people who let me be me and who hold me accountable, but also who, you know, celebrate me like. Mike, like you said, has been really important for my development. So I think I'm the best version of myself because of my chosen family.
• 8:11
  Speaker A: Yeah, I see that so much with you, Gavin. And I think you're probably one of the most authentic people I know. When I said at the beginning, you're the gayest person I know, I say that with such love because there's not one little bit of you that tries to hide it or wants to hide it. You are just so naturally and exuberantly you. And it's such a beautiful sight to see. I think it's the first time I've complimented you in a long time. I know because people are watching. We'll talk about that later. Okay, Sean, let's go to you. How has chosen family impacted your life?
• 8:42
  Speaker D: Thank you. Thanks for having me. I guess my story sort of oddly mirrors both stars and Gavins. So I grew up far away. Not nearly as far as Trinidad, but northwestern Ontario. So a number of hours drive from Toronto, where we're all at now. And like Gavin, I was definitely a lonely childhood. I think part of that was my personality. And I'm still like to be a loner, but still just didn't have that kind of automatic, easy friendship with people as a little kid. And when you're younger, at least for me, pre puberty, you didn't really realize why necessarily, you just kind of felt different. You sort of go along better with the girls, but not quite. You didn't really want to. You knew you weren't a girl. I didn't want to be a girl, but. And then the street boys are just a whole other challenge, kind of speaking a different language. And what's interesting, I think growing up and meeting Mike in my first year university, to give some background to that, University of Guelph 2003, which is crazy, maybe even more crazy. People watching on YouTube, Mike is actually older than I am, despite my luscious locks of hair and gray beard. He's. When he said, I know him better than anyone else, I realized why I have so many grays in my beard, apparently. But yeah, I met Mike. He was my residence assistant at the time. And what kind of blows my mind, I was thinking about this the other day, sort of in preparation for this. He really was the first queer person I had ever. Or out, I should say, queer person I had ever met in my life. And it really speaks to, I think both the location of where I grew up but also the timing, right, of so much has changed so much so quickly for our kind of communities. So meeting Mike back then and him being sort of out but really being the very first person I ever told. I remember it was on MSN Messenger. I think I was a couple months shy of turning 19, so still 18 year old. And yeah, it was the immediate sense of belonging of, oh, I can finally comment on that. Hawkeye walking down the street. And 20 plus years later, we've never stopped commenting on the hot guys walking down the street, all four of us. And thank God it was so tough to keep that quiet right, for I guess 18 years up to that point. So it's real kind of emancipation of being I can be truly myself among similar people who really get it and don't judge. And that real sense of belonging of like, oh, finally my people. And of course they're up there in northern Ontario and things are better than they used to be. But of course the concentration of a bigger city allows for more celebration of that.
• 11:25
  Speaker A: So that's such a great point about where we all are from. None of us, we all live downtown Toronto. We're actually quite close to each other but. But no one was born here. We all kind of ended up here because it is a kind of city that has that just there's more people and more to do for us. I think that's really important and I think that starhad talked about it too. Coming into a new city can be really difficult to establish. Like you don't just go out there and be like on your render profile, hey guys, looking for my chosen family. Please show up. Like, it does take a lot of time to nurture and so we can. I want you guys to at any point sprinkle this episode with some tips and advice for what's been helpful on your journey. But I want to talk also about the family dynamics. So there's a difference in my mind and you guys can share what you think about this from friends versus you guys and other people that I would consider part of my chosen family. For me, it's really about not just longevity, although that definitely has something to do with it. But the fact that one little fight or one little disagreement or conflict is not going to drive me away or I'm not going to say, oh, Fuck this shit. I'm out of here. I don't want to be your friend anymore. I like to say that these guys drive me crazy. Like, especially with Gavin and Sean, I have, like, I would say a brotherly relationship with them, and they drive me crazy like brothers would. But also it's the crazy I choose going back to the chosen family. Um, you guys do both do drive me crazy. You know that. That's what I was saying to Gavin earlier, Right. Like, we. We razz each other, all three of us. Maybe not so much, Sar, but the three of us razz each other a lot. And we tease each other a lot, like brothers do. And starts laughing because he knows that that's probably true. He gets to see it. Yeah.
• 13:09
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 13:09
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 13:10
  Speaker D: It's.
• 13:10
  Speaker A: It's a lot of playful teasing and sometimes on the verge of not so playful. So I think this is how we are like a family in that way. And I'm curious to know what you guys have to say about that.
• 13:19
  Speaker B: I think that's. That's true. And I have. I have a younger sister talking about chosen family versus biological family. And, you know, we didn't get along, but I think it's because we just weren't. We didn't have this shared experience. She was with my. My dad, I was with my mom. And it. We're just always. There's always so much tension and conflict. So it's actually, I guess, nice to have that type of relationship with. With friends or, you know, chosen brothers or whatever, because it's. It's a sign of. It's a sign of love, and it's a sign respect and trust, and so sometimes, you know.
• 13:53
  Speaker A: Yeah, sure, it's.
• 13:54
  Speaker B: It can be a little bit in the moment, but it's also funny, and at the end of the day, you can laugh at it. So I think it's cute.
• 14:00
  Speaker D: Yeah, definitely. The dynamic of kind of knowing the bedrock is we would never kind of have ill intentions each other. And there's definitely lots of teasing, and usually Mitch will laughing, and even when there's not, we know that the intention is good and. Yeah. That we kind of have that in common. I have written down here. I made notes before, because that's my personality. Gavin is definitely the younger sister.
• 14:23
  Speaker A: Yes. Oh, my gosh. For sure.
• 14:25
  Speaker D: Which reminds me. I was going to say with the three of us. So my mom is the middle child of three sisters, a bunch of brothers, too, in a big French Catholic family. But it reminds me of us, and we're the three sisters. And sometimes even when we drive each other nuts and I'm nuts. And I'm sure of kind of, how do we say, complain nicely made note to each other separately or whatever. Or even to my partner like, oh, so and so is driving me crazy or whatever. But there's always that but they're your sister, so what's she gonna do? It's like it's a pre stated kind of understood acceptance that like, you're driving me crazy or maybe I need to step away for a day or something. But knowing that, you know, the, the friendship is more than, I guess, just a regular friendship, it's like a chosen family situation. So knowing that especially 20 years, right, like there's been over those years, some years I live closer, some years I live in different cities and having that kind of bedrock of commitment to each other. So knowing that, yeah, at the end of the day we just say, well, or at least I say, that's my brother. We're not necessarily going to be super get along every single hour of every single day. But knowing that that background connection exists. So what else do I have written down here? Star is the Nona looking out the window, watching the neighbors.
• 15:43
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 15:44
  Speaker D: Make a note of what everyone does.
• 15:46
  Speaker A: Oh my gosh.
• 15:47
  Speaker D: Myself, Sean is the grandpa with constant injuries or the studious, worrying parent. And then others have, Mike is Blanche, which I think in three words sums it up pretty well.
• 16:00
  Speaker A: Yeah. All the Golden Ghouls fans that they're gonna love that. Who is by the way, my like spirit animal. I like that. So, okay, wait, I want to first go to Star because Star, you get a chance to see this like brotherly dynamic pan out or sisterly pan out from the outside looking in. What do you have to say on that?
• 16:20
  Speaker C: I mean, the first time I saw it, I was, I cringed. I'm like, oh my gosh, like, what's going on? Is this for real? Like, and I would tell you after, like, oh, that's mean to say, you know, like. But over time I understood that this is the dynamic. This is definitely normal. This is love. This is what love looks like for this group. So yeah, even though there's a little.
• 16:44
  Speaker B: Like there's some jokes here and there, there's also, it's balanced with like love and respect.
• 16:48
  Speaker C: Oh, yes.
• 16:48
  Speaker A: Yeah, good point.
• 16:52
  Speaker D: The library isn't constantly open. Yeah, I guess it's open, but it's not always been used.
• 16:59
  Speaker A: I know. I, I have had to like, remind myself because like the teasing just comes so easily for me. I guess it's just my personality. Like, I'M just from that kind of family. We just did that. And, And. And you guys make it really easy. You guys give me a lot of opportunities, but I have had to be like, hey, Michael, like, you know, purposefully find balance there. Right? So we all have had our struggles, all four of us, in our own ways, and it's really important that. Yeah, Gavin has a good point. When. When I am struggling with something, like, I kind of know who. Who to go to for what things. And sometimes it's all of you guys, which is really nice, but you all provide a level of support which is unparalleled, I would say, to my biological family. Like, there's things I would go to my biological family with, and there's some things that I would never go to my biological family with, as much as I love them.
• 17:43
  Speaker D: There's one thing that occurred to me before this chat was if anyone ends up following me on Instagram, you'll see all my memes. I see the world through memes. But there was one I love that said something like, gay culture is your family having no idea what your life is actually like. And of course, it's like, sounds really negative or whatever, but. And it's probably exaggeration, but there is some truth to that, which is, of course, why it's somewhat funny. So Mike made that point earlier. I think originally Chosen Family comes from that idea that, sadly, a lot of people were ostracized by their family or kind of really lost connections to their biological families and kind of put together that same social support externally through queer friends. But I think it's a worthwhile point to say even, you know, thankfully, all our families are accepting and excellent and loving of us, but they'll still never quite get it in the same way that kind of. We get each other. So I can say I'm closer to the people on the screen than even my biological siblings. So I think that's a worthwhile point, that even when you have a great family. Because I guess the distinction with queer people is we don't get to be raised by other queer people. We're not. We're not queer because we were born to queer parents. We just kind of discovered that. I guess I alluded to earlier, like, I hit puberty and I was like, oh, this is different. My compass is pointing at the other boys. And I had to wait, like, six, eight, ten years before I could say that to anyone. And that's the kind of celebration of a queer family that you eventually established.
• 19:10
  Speaker A: So, yeah, solid point. Your compass was Pointing at Celine Dion, I think, is what got you out of the cloud.
• 19:17
  Speaker D: She held me over. She got me through the tough times. It's all coming back to me now. When you put it like that.
• 19:24
  Speaker A: I. I will say to that point, Sean, the. I was. I went on prep for the first time. I think it was 2016, but I didn't even know what it was. And Sean, I think you had just got on prep yourself or you. You had. Well, it was from a trip that we took together where we ended up having a lot of unprotected sex and mishaps that we're both like, okay, like, this is the thing. This is the importance of chosen family. I remember that conversation. Like, okay, we both keep doing this. We need to. We need to figure this out. Like. And we had a. We had a really good conversation about it. It was fun, but also, like, serious. And Sean at that time, well, Sean knows a lot about hiv, AIDS and prep and everything, so he. I wouldn't say got me on it, but you introduced me to the concept of it, and I've been on it ever since. So I think it's important to have those kinds of conversations. I couldn't have that kind of conversation with my mother or my other siblings. They'd be like, what? Why are you doing that? Just. Just don't do that. Or stop that. But you guys know that that's a little bit harder for me. Right.
• 20:22
  Speaker D: Even with the best of intentions, that's just totally out of their wheelhouse, and they'd be clueless about that. Right? So.
• 20:27
  Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah.
• 20:29
  Speaker C: Is this a chair of shame?
• 20:31
  Speaker D: Yes, Shame Years.
• 20:32
  Speaker C: I've heard.
• 20:33
  Speaker D: Love always have. Portugal and Spain.
• 20:35
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 20:37
  Speaker B: Sean called himself the worrying grandpa, which I would just say you're more of a worrying uncle. Like an older uncle.
• 20:44
  Speaker D: 18 months. Bitch. That's all that's between us. 18 months. Despite this gray beard, one of the.
• 20:51
  Speaker B: The main characteristics, you know, I find with the chosen family is that they. They are there to support you and. And want the best for you. And in that they do worry and they can give you advice, but they wanted to see you succeed. And I think with friend, just a kind of a regular friend, they can still have that caring for you, but there's always a bit of a. Like, a line, and they might just step back a little bit where a chosen family member will go over that line with the best intentions and they'll give you that kind of maybe unasked for, unsolicited piece of advice or feedback because they want you to be Happy and so. Which is. No, which is great. And I think that type of love and wanting to see you be the best version of yourself is what, for me, what distinguishes a friend and a chosen family member.
• 21:35
  Speaker A: Yeah, totally. Gavin, I meant to ask you earlier, I forgot we kind of all labeled you as the younger sister. Is that a label you accept?
• 21:44
  Speaker B: I stopped listening at younger.
• 21:47
  Speaker A: You're like, yes, I'll take younger. Right?
• 21:51
  Speaker B: I hope those listening do follow me on Instagram and you can see how young I look.
• 21:57
  Speaker A: Yes, you're beautiful, honey. I will be posting everyone's Instagram in the show notes if they give me permission to. So you guys can follow these awesome guys.
• 22:06
  Speaker B: Just joking. I'm not vain, obviously. I'm just kidding.
• 22:09
  Speaker D: Just a little humility. You'd be perfect.
• 22:13
  Speaker A: Okay, so let's talk a little bit about the navigating those challenges that, that we. We have had. Yeah. Who wants to tackle this question? How do you navigate that when it comes to someone who is part of your chosen family?
• 22:28
  Speaker D: I have answers written down. I could get to. I didn't print your preparation email and highlight it. I stopped myself there. But, you know, I considered it. Two points that came to mind for this one. One was leaning on each other. So I'm sure you can all remember probably a time where I said to you about one of the other ones, you know, or am I crazy? Or is this kind of happening or whatever. And definitely sometimes I am just crazy or I'm overthinking it, which is sort of my job. And that's why I made notes for this podcast. Is the overthinker. But then sometimes you'll say to me, oh, no, you know, there's some truth to that. I hear you. And then you can at least have each other. That it's not just, I guess that bilateral friendship, that you can kind of talk it out, not gossip about each other at all, but kind of sound board with each other and ways to maybe help someone in the best way or something like that, where you can kind of lean on each other. And then what was my other point about? Oh, I think another maybe defining characteristic. I mean, close friendships too, but certainly with chosen family, we've never. I don't know if we ever had like blow up arguments or anything like that, but if it ever were to happen or something like that, I think there's an underlying kind of understanding. We sort of said already that our intentions are always best for each other and if we disagree, it's maybe just disagreeing about the best course for each other, but still wanting the same goal of good things for each other. So kind of keeping that in mind. And I think if there were an argument or even doesn't have to be, you know, a big dramatic argument or anything, because we don't really do that, but that if there ever was an issue and we texted each other and said, hey, clearly this is an issue, that's a get together and chat, I think it's pretty much a guarantee between any of us that it'd be receptive and, you know, in a positive way and be like, yes, absolutely. And then we can just talk it out really respectfully and kind of maturely, which maybe you couldn't say as much just with kind of a typical friendship or friendships that aren't as close.
• 24:28
  Speaker B: Conflict is natural and it's going to happen, especially when you spend so much time together. And you know, I like the sibling kind of analogy for it, but as Sean was saying, as long as you can be respectful and transparent and maybe give it a little cool down moment, but then together and say, I mean, I need to tell you how that made me feel. And as Sean said, no one in this group would be necessarily offended by that. They might not agree or understand, but I think they'll be willing to listen and try to, try to be open to it.
• 24:57
  Speaker D: Definitely.
• 24:58
  Speaker C: And that's exactly how I feel. I think, Gavin, you nailed the head. Wait, hit the nail on the head.
• 25:03
  Speaker D: Oops, you sucked off the head.
• 25:06
  Speaker A: Yeah, that's more like it.
• 25:10
  Speaker C: For me, growing up in a different culture where I didn't grow up with tough love. So getting it here and understanding, you know, how to maneuver this new level of conflict, sometimes, you know, people would say something that I would probably take personally at first. I used to take it more personally in the beginning. As Michael say, I'm too sensitive. But, um, for me, I had to always keep in mind that it's coming from you, like any one of you guys, which means it's from a place of love. So I just take the time to evaluate, like, is this person, does this person have any merit to what they're saying? Is this true? Is this something that I'm not seeing? And, you know, I evaluate it myself and if I think it's not, I, as you said, I come to either one of you and say, oh, you know, I really didn't like what you said this time and I don't agree with it, but I like that we all could open an air grievances in a, in a way that we all understand. Is from love.
• 26:14
  Speaker B: I don't think this will happen with us, but I know some other people who were. Had chosen family, and at the end of the day, the differences came and didn't necessarily have the same, I guess, love that they had at the beginning, and they stopped seeing each other as an emancipation of chosen family. So I think. I mean, as long as the relationships are healthy for you and wanting to, you know, be there for you and be a resource and a support, then it's good. But it doesn't mean chosen family doesn't.
• 26:42
  Speaker A: Have to be forever.
• 26:44
  Speaker B: And again, I. I would love you in my lives forever. And so I'm not saying this about us, but for anyone, you know, listening, that might be in a bit more of a toxic relationship. It's okay if you need space, and space might be permanent as well.
• 26:57
  Speaker A: That is such a good point. I find that in. In my own growth. Not everyone. Not everyone's still around for the journey, Right. Because we grow, we change. We have different interests, we. We just become naturally different. But I can't. I mean, who knows? But I can't imagine any one of you guys not. Not being there because you've already actually seen me grow. Right. Like I said, with Sean 20 years and Gavin over, I don't know how long it's been, but 10. Yeah. I've already grown so much. Right. That the guy you met then is certainly not the person I am now.
• 27:26
  Speaker D: I believe it's been 14 years, six months, three weeks, two days, and 14 hours.
• 27:32
  Speaker A: Did you just make that up?
• 27:33
  Speaker D: Yes, but it's close. It's been a fun ride.
• 27:38
  Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And it's worth the effort. I would say whenever I. When any one of you guys drives me a little crazy, I remind myself of, like, there's so much more good there. It's worth it. Like, it's. It's worth the difficult conversation or, you know, eating the piece of humble pie that I sometimes have to eat. Or you guys could. You know, what's great about you guys is they will confront me on my. Especially Sean. Like no one else lost me at pie. Yeah, he was waiting for that pie, which is nice, because I need that. I. I have a very. It's over to. You start to describe the way I speak.
• 28:21
  Speaker C: It can be prickly.
• 28:22
  Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. I sometimes speak very prickly. I just speak my mind. I know who I am. I'm just very. I just put myself out there, and sometimes I need. Sometimes I go a little bit too far. And if I do, if I question it, I'll always go to Sean. He's kind of the one who's like, okay, this guy's going to give it to me. Real talk. He's going to give me the truth. And I really appreciate that about you.
• 28:38
  Speaker B: I think. I mean, something I've noticed about myself is I'm really going through a new evolution and a new version of myself right now. And, you know, as Mike said, I'm a different person than when we first met. But when, as you're growing, you misstep sometimes and you fall or you're overconfident and then that illusion shatters. And so there are. You know, I'm really happy with the progress I've been on, but it definitely is not an easy journey. And there have been moments of time where it's been quite difficult. And I'm sure that makes. I've been difficult to be around. But I know that at the end of the day, the advice I'm getting and the support I'm getting through you guys and the guys I love is, you know, keeps me motivated and it keeps pushing me forward. And so I can only say thank you for putting up with the tough stuff. And I know that the good stuff.
• 29:29
  Speaker A: Will be worth it. What, what do you guys think contributes to like, longevity in chosen family relationships? Not just ours, but think of like, other. Other people in your life that you would consider part of your chosen family. What, why does it last? What are some secrets? What can we give the audience?
• 29:44
  Speaker D: I can add maybe again, because I have notes, I think an important point. I mean, I have a few can make, but I'll just add this one now that like, you can be fun but also be genuine and kind. Like you don't. I think of like, mean girls, right? Like, you don't have to be. And we talk about reading each other, teasing each other and stuff, but we're still not like, mean. We're like make fun of each other, but we're not being mean. So you don't have to be a mean girl to be cool. And you can, like, go to the parties, we can have all the fun we have and etc. And kind of be cool and in the scene at least I think I'm cool sometimes. But be a nice guy. And I think that's. And genuine. And that, I think is what leads to people saying maybe after they meet you, like, oh, that, that guy's good. He's good people. I love that line. I said that about people. And when I think about them, they're just, they're Just real, but also kind. And they're genuinely kind. So you can be cool, you can be fine, you can be hot, but you know, just not be a jerk about it. Because I think as Mike's probably talked about a lot throughout these podcasts and what not, if you're cocky, you're probably actually deeply insecure. And I think there's another element of just being confident and then being confidently kind is tremendously alluring and friendships and relationships and everything.
• 31:00
  Speaker A: So I was back to kindness and.
• 31:02
  Speaker D: Then like reading each other in between.
• 31:03
  Speaker A: The kind of, yeah, have some fun with it.
• 31:06
  Speaker C: Of course, I would say maybe authenticity because I'm just evaluating, like just jumping off what you guys said earlier as well. It's that, you know, once you have the. If you have the knowledge that you know everyone is, has the best intentions and being your authentic self, you know each other through and through. And I was going to say communication earlier, but for me, I have like really, really close friends that I'm not in contact with regularly. But when we do get together, it's like, you know, we didn't dropped a ball. It was just. We just pick up where we left off. And that's because we were always authentic with ourselves. I think that's, that's probably the, the key factor for me, like authenticity.
• 31:58
  Speaker A: So your journey in the last, I mean, we've all, we've all grown a lot over the last little while, but you specifically, very recently I have seen you go from that, like scared, like you talked about being in Toronto to like now we can't walk down Church street without start stopping to Talk to like 10 people on the way. And I've lived here for like what, 15, 20 years now. And this guy knows literally everyone. So you have really done something. You've done something to really put yourself out there and, and be who you are naturally. And people are drawn to that and they're drawn to that kindness within you.
• 32:30
  Speaker D: It's so nice to see for sure.
• 32:32
  Speaker C: Yeah, I think that's. Well, one advice I would give someone who is from a new city. Just it takes a while because it was not easy at all. But again, involved. I got involved like with various projects and activities around that kind of resonated with me, me. And I don't know, I think the confidence grew and you know, you get to, you're in a space with these giants of personalities output it and you have the courage to speak to one of them and then the second one and it just grows and you know, just go in a room now and you can speak to anybody because you adopted that behavior from just that little tiny interaction. So definitely get involved in things that set you out of your comfort zone but still resonates with you.
• 33:27
  Speaker A: Yeah. And that's that authenticity piece. They have to be things that you actually genuinely enjoy. And that's why I love on this podcast, we don't want to shame anything. Like, if dodgeball's your thing, great. Have fun. A dodgeball. If Atlantis cruises are your thing, great. Have fun. Atlantis cruises of going to the library and going to book club is your thing, great. Do that for me. You know, it's. It's personal development, and it's a lot of things, but find that thing and don't try to fit and be like, oh, okay, well, here's where the. These cool guides are. So I need to go over there and then try to, like, fit the square peg into the round hole, as it were. Just found. Find the people that are for you. And that does take time. And that's the thing. It sounds so much easier when I say it, but it takes a lot of trial and error. You don't always get it the first time. Gavin, what would you add to what factors contribute to longevity?
• 34:11
  Speaker B: I think just the bedrock of any relationship is communication. And I know it sounds really obvious, but being honest can be hard. I think you're being honest with yourself and being honest with others. At least with my personality, it's easier to just ignore it, shove it down somewhere, and hope it just goes away. But obviously it doesn't. So I'm trying hard, a lot harder to you be more direct. And I think with. With friendships, it's being honest about the good things. And I mean, making sure we take time, take the 30 seconds to say, great job. You know, Mike, you have an incredible podcast. Great job, star with the promotion. Like, there's lots of things that we need, I think, to celebrate, but also it's, hey, like, your behavior last night was a little frustrating. Can we talk about it? Because if we don't do that, we just ignore it, and then it probably bubbles and festers and we end up just presenting each other. So it's being. Making sure you have communication, honest communication.
• 35:04
  Speaker A: Love that. And I love that I talked about celebrating milestones or celebrating wins and whatnot. One of the things I think for me, as I think about, like, when I was thinking about us and doing this podcast with you guys, the memories that come to mind are all of our, like, traditions, I'm going to say, and every family, like, in my Biological family. We have traditions, right? Thanksgiving, Christmas, these things we do. We go to the cottage, whatever. But with you guys, we also have our traditions. And to me, they're just as important, and I put them at that. At that same level. So for us, we've been. I think we've been going to PV now for a few years with a brief break for Covid. But like, that, to me, is one of our things that we do. If not pv, then we travel. Like Sean, I have traveled a lot. Gavin, Sean and I have traveled quite a bit. Star, we're just starting to get there, But PV is one of the ones that we've all been to now. And I consider that, like, as fun as it is, and we just go there and have fun. We don't consider it, oh, this is our, like, family tradition. But it is. It's kind of become part of our. Our thing. Another one would be like our cottage weekend, where we got to go to the cottage once a year, and we just have fun. We get into trouble, and we do nice things. Other things, like going to the beach, going out to nightclubs, that's just what we do. And I'm not saying. I'm not sitting here saying that other people have to do the same thing, but each family gets to define their own traditions. And I think that's one of the most beautiful things about Chosen family is just like being gay. We get to decide what it means for us. And I love that about us.
• 36:25
  Speaker B: I would just say also, we're really privileged that we live so close together, but, you know, life can pull you away. And, I mean, Sean has lived around the country and who knows where others will go in the future, but those traditions can be something that bind you together and that bring you back. So you can have chosen family that's around the world, but having that constant engagement in communication over social media or zoom or whatever, but then trying to keep those traditions alive, I think could be really good, a really good motivator to stay connected.
• 36:51
  Speaker D: I've never thought of them as family traditions in that way, but I think that's a really good point and maybe why I enjoy them so much or, like, kind of rely on them in a way or look forward to them. And especially Star can probably agree that us living far from home, we don't necessarily go home nearly as frequently as, you know, Mike and Gavin are more kind of suburban families closer to Toronto. So that idea of kind of having that cottage weekend to look forward to and stuff can mean a lot. And. And the follow through the other point I wanted to make about ways to kind of build and I guess maintain chosen family. It's really similar, I guess to, you know, dating advice you might give to someone is be reliable and follow through. Which is maybe a more diplomatic way of saying, just don't be flaky. So if you say, oh yeah, I'm definitely coming to the cottage weekend and then like a week before, like, oh, I'm not going to make it, of course, you know, I think if we said that to each other, we would know that we really regretted it and we wanted to go and, you know, we couldn't give you better notice. But if you only kind of commit to something half assed for a lack of a better word, that can be frustrating and certainly not going to be the best way to kind of build those deeper connections with people. So say what you mean and mean what you say. I guess.
• 38:08
  Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. Goes back to that authenticity too. Is there anything like, are there any specific moments in your life, like specific tangible moments where you have really benefited from chosen family, where it has really become particularly meaningful or particularly memorable?
• 38:26
  Speaker B: I was in a terrible relationship.
• 38:30
  Speaker A: And.
• 38:31
  Speaker B: It was terrible because, I mean he was. It was toxic and it just wasn't healthy. But I.
• 38:35
  Speaker D: Which one?
• 38:38
  Speaker A: Take or thick?
• 38:39
  Speaker B: But just as a sequel, I, I was in that relationship because I felt I didn't deserve better. And it was. This was Star before you were here. But it was Sean and Mike who were constantly reminding me that I did deserve better and eventually it got through and I made the decision, I took the step to end it, which was, I mean, one of the best things I've done. But I don't. If I wasn't for that support and that constantly me pushing, almost aggressive pushing at times, I think I would have. And so I don't know if I've ever said thank you, but thank you.
• 39:13
  Speaker D: Wow. My unsolicited advice can come in raw. Honesty apparently can be to put to good use at times.
• 39:19
  Speaker B: It's usually good when it's raw.
• 39:21
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 39:24
  Speaker D: Back to the prep.
• 39:26
  Speaker A: I would say that would be, that's a good segue for. My answer would be coming to terms with my sexual. Like. No, let's rephrase that. Healing my sexual shame. When I, you know, first visited Toronto, I. I'm very sexually sex positive now. I'll say. But it wasn't always the case. And so being around these guys really gave me permission and they allowed me to talk about things and you know, we talk about, with shame the, the antidote to shame is to talk about it. It's to talk about how you feel, to talk about all these things. And as you talk about it, as you put it in the open, it just loses its power. So these guys are all people that I can talk to very openly about sex and STIs and all the things that we talk about. Prep everything helps me so, so much in my own work and how I. How I even show up with other. With my clients. Right? Because you guys have given me, have been the example for me of, hey, wait. Gay guys can have really smart, powerful, meaningful conversations about sex. And in a ways that's educating and also fun, of course. And so, like, I hadn't, had you guys not given me that container, I wouldn't have been able to even do this podcast or have my business. So I want to give you guys credit for that.
• 40:38
  Speaker C: I think for me, as I mentioned before, being an immigrant and being alone in a country with nobody that you grew up with, sometimes it can be daunting and very sad. But then you remember that you do have people like you guys to kind of hold you up when you need someone. I remember in certain situations where I faced not the best treatment from strangers with respect to racism. And, you know, sometimes it's not. Sometimes you can definitely feel alone in those moments. Like, what who do I call? What do I do? I can't really tell my biological family because they wouldn't really understand the context of, you know, not being North America, et cetera, and sharing it with you guys. And you guys remind me where I am, give me the confidence to go through it and to deal with it. And I think that something that I would never, like, forget, like that you guys are there to be my support. So thank you for that.
• 41:53
  Speaker D: These are all such good answers. The one I'll maybe contribute going back that I was saying before to coming out because I guess I wouldn't want people to think, oh, I need a chosen family before I can do X, Y or Z. Really, I think I started to forge my chosen family or at least my, you know, close friendship with Mike all those years ago was first coming out with him or to him and then going out with him to, like, the bars. We kind of figured out being gay in 2004 Canada, in largely Toronto, but also somewhat in Guelph, which is interesting together. And then it was over those years of, you know, we weren't best of friends back in 2004 or 2003. It was over those years where we became very close friends. And, you know, chosen family, you could say in time. And same with Gavin years later, that even when I first met Gavin, I think it was 14 years. I was sort of making it up before, but I remember it was probably 2009, and, you know, how much have we learned and kind of experience for the first time together and going through together? So you don't. It doesn't have to be one or the other. I got to get a solid chosen family and then, you know, tackle something. You really can kind of forge a chosen family through whatever it is that you're kind of aiming to do. So, yeah. In coming out and remember the days, Mike was the first one, and I remember counting on one hand that I told my friend Sarah, and I was like, oh, my gosh. Two people know I'm gay. And then. And then Adam, I guess, and then Jackie, and. And it's through those development steps that really forges things. We're kind of just, like, feel so old now.
• 43:29
  Speaker A: We kind of just, like, ended up together in a way. Like, we didn't. Like, we didn't intentionally say, okay, these are the people I'm gonna associate, I'm gonna put together as my team. But here you are. You guys are basically my team, and that's. That's how it happens. That's a really good point. That it does take time, and it doesn't really. You don't really know you're doing it until it's kind of done.
• 43:44
  Speaker D: You remember being on the fly dance floor for the first time or standing outside. We were so nervous to go in because then everyone in the bar would know we were gay, and we were so nervous. But, like, it's a gay bar. Everyone there is likely gay.
• 43:56
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 43:56
  Speaker D: And then we stood there on the dance floor holding our jackets in our hands because we were too cheap or broke to check them, and we had to catch the go bus at, like, 12:30 or something. I still remember that. And it's that that really forges friendships. All the years later.
• 44:10
  Speaker A: And look at us now. We've come so far. Now we just walk into that gay bar like, we own it.
• 44:14
  Speaker D: Right. Or go to where fly used to be and pay our respects.
• 44:20
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. We don't even wear coats anymore. We just wear, like, short shorts.
• 44:24
  Speaker D: Yeah. Now our holes are just out anyway.
• 44:29
  Speaker A: Okay, before I wrap up, let's have a little fun here. I have some questions that I'm gonna like most likely to, and you guys can just spit out the answers.
• 44:36
  Speaker B: Whoever.
• 44:37
  Speaker A: Whoever wants to jump in on this. Who is most likely to win a hot dog eating contest.
• 44:42
  Speaker C: Sean.
• 44:47
  Speaker A: Why? Why, Sean? I think I know why.
• 44:51
  Speaker D: I eat a lot. Okay, I'm still waiting for the pie mentioned earlier.
• 45:00
  Speaker A: Who is most likely to win a dance competition? Okay, let's do this one. Who's most likely to lose a dance competition?
• 45:10
  Speaker D: No comment at this time. Can I mute myself?
• 45:16
  Speaker A: Okay, who is most likely to give up his seat on public transportation? Yeah, for sure. The nice one. Let's go back to the Golden Girls thing. There's four of us. If I. If I'm Blanche. Where. Where did you guys fit into this? And sorry, who was. Who was Sophia? Did somebody say, like, old grandmother? Was that Star?
• 45:39
  Speaker D: I said Star was the Nona looking out the window, commenting on all the neighbors and what they're doing every day.
• 45:49
  Speaker B: I think we all have characteristics of.
• 45:51
  Speaker A: Of all of them. Yeah.
• 45:52
  Speaker B: There's the shadiness, there's the promiscuousness. There's the love for just being old.
• 46:01
  Speaker A: We're all just old. But if you have to pick one. If you have to pick one, guess.
• 46:07
  Speaker B: I'd be more Dorothy.
• 46:09
  Speaker D: I was thinking that Star would be Sophia, and I would be Rose from Northern Ontario, which is basically the Minnesota of Canada.
• 46:17
  Speaker A: Interesting. Okay, guys. And for the audience out there who gets to see me in a different context every. Every week besides this one, tell them something that you think would surprise them about me. And I'm scared, but I'm going to start with Gavin.
• 46:33
  Speaker B: I was hoping there'd be a reading challenge. What can I say?
• 46:41
  Speaker D: This wasn't in the preparation notes. I'm not ready.
• 46:45
  Speaker A: A little bit of improv.
• 46:48
  Speaker B: I am constantly amazed at how thoughtful Mike is, not necessarily in terms of kindness, thoughtfulness. I think if I'm ever needing some serious advice, I know Mike will actually give an honest answer. But I think your clients know that, which is why they're your clients. So I'm trying to think of something they don't know.
• 47:17
  Speaker D: But you're.
• 47:18
  Speaker B: You're great to travel with because you'll say yes to most things, and you can just go out and we'll always have a good time and make the most of it, no matter what.
• 47:29
  Speaker A: Beautiful. And thanks for going first. Kevin, I know this wasn't in the notes. Star, what about you?
• 47:33
  Speaker C: Okay. I would say not in the context of living with, but just generally hanging out and going out with. I would say that you're a great wingman. Is that something that you think that they would know? I don't think so. They don't see you in that. I mean, they know you're supportive. But I would say you're good wingman. You're like, you boost my confidence when I'm in a club and I don't feel like a hundred percent, you know, there you just give me little words of inspirations like, you know, what do you say? Like, shine in your glory, girl.
• 48:12
  Speaker A: Shine your light. That's what I say. Shine your light.
• 48:16
  Speaker C: So, yeah, you're a great wingman and reminding me to, you know, be my best.
• 48:22
  Speaker A: Thank you.
• 48:25
  Speaker D: Can I comment on that? He's a great wingman if the other guy is a fellow bottom, but if that guy's a top, elbows are up.
• 48:39
  Speaker C: Exactly.
• 48:41
  Speaker D: Star is benefiting from that. But this wingman business, I'm still waiting for that to pay.
• 48:45
  Speaker A: Hey, I've been a good wingman. I've pushed you into the, into people nicely.
• 48:50
  Speaker D: I guess there's those chlamydia weeks where we all get a chance. What I was going to add that I can think of with short notice here, that people don't know about you. Just knowing you for 20 years, I think it's hysterical sometimes. Another memory I have of us is going to the University of Guelph pool and you being so shy to take your shirt off. This is many years ago and being very body insecure, as you know, most or a lot of young people are. Maybe not nowadays, but the Instagram and the tick tock and stuff. But I just think it's incredible, you know, how far we've all come, but especially you, given the reality you are today. But. And there's been other kind of insecurities I've seen over the years, and I'm sure vice versa as well. But to your credit, you know, a lot of those have been tackled very well. But otherwise I think it's a good thing that what people see in podcasts and in coaching, I'm sure is very much kind of who you are. You kind of put it out how it is. So I don't know that we have any like, revealing like, oh, in private, he's actually horrible. We love to read you, but I don't think any of us can say that in good faith.
• 49:58
  Speaker A: So beautiful. I'll take it. Thanks, guys. All right, any. Any last words before I wrap this up? Last pieces of advice or anything?
• 50:08
  Speaker B: I think if anyone listening has a chosen family, don't wait to do a podcast with them to be nice to them. Some of the nicest things I've heard from all of you, maybe listen to the episode and then text your. Your Bestie and say something nice and then something.
• 50:23
  Speaker A: That's great advice, but to be fair, Gavin, I think when I do say nice things to you, you're not always 100 sober, so maybe you don't remember.
• 50:30
  Speaker D: But neither are you.
• 50:33
  Speaker A: All fair points. All fair points. My friends.
• 50:35
  Speaker D: This is when the love comes out. You just don't remember it the next day.
• 50:40
  Speaker A: It's like, I love you.
• 50:41
  Speaker D: It's going to nourish it as we go and try and say those things maybe more often than every 14 years.
• 50:46
  Speaker A: Yeah. Sarah, anything for you.
• 50:50
  Speaker C: I just echoed Gavin's sentiments, really and truly. Just. Just tell your loved ones that you love them, your friends, and your chosen family. Just communicate, like text. Send a text when you can. Just to say hi. Ever so often. For me, I think when one of them pop in my head, sometimes I'm too busy to do it, and then I forget and you lose touch. But it's good to just take that split second just to reach out.
• 51:20
  Speaker A: I think, as you're saying that, I think that that's an element of biological families as well. Right? We take them for granted because they're there. And I think that just kind of proves the point that we are very much like a chosen family, because maybe, maybe I do take you guys for granted. Maybe we do take each other for granted sometimes, and we don't give that love. And we do need to get on a podcast once in a while and say it in front of thousands of people, which is good because there's proof now. Okay.
• 51:43
  Speaker D: Imagine you didn't record this, and it was all just to get nice things out of.
• 51:46
  Speaker A: You know what's funny is I just checked to make sure it was recording. It's like, this better be recording right now. And it is. We're good. Okay. So I want to thank star Gavin, Sean for joining me today. I was really nervous about this, and as always, I got right into it because these are friendly faces and people that I love. Thank you for lending me your time and lending the audience your time and your wisdom. This has been really good. With your permission, I'll be putting your info in the show notes so people can add you on the Instagram. Add these guys. They're wonderful. They're great. They're sexy, they're fun, they're smart. All the good things. You'll have a good time. And yes, if you have stuck around for the entire hour we've been here. Thank you for sticking around. And please give us a wonderful rating on itunes, Apple, Spotify, wherever you're listening to this. And if you're watching us on YouTube, please leave us a comment. Tell us about your chosen family. Share with us one of your stories. I will be checking out those comments and replying to them if they're nice. If they're not nice, I won't. And other than that, I want to thank everyone. And we'll see you next week. Have a good one. Bye. Bye.