Latest / hol+ with Dr. Taz MD | The Future of Medicine is Holistic / 1 in 36" 8 Year Old Kids have Autism - THIS may be WHY! | Dr. Joel "Gator" Warsh (Rebroadcast)
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- Vaccine Safety, Autism, and the Facts Parents Should Know with Dr. Joel "Gator" Warsh === Dr. Warsh: Whenever you even mention that word, it's like the most controversial word on the internet and we need to be able to talk about it. A pediatrician should be able to talk about vaccines Dr. Taz: without being considered a quack. Dr. Warsh: It's not crazy to have questions. A good parent has questions about anything that they do. Dr. Warsh: We're Dr. Taz: not anti-vax, and I think we need to lead this conversation saying that Dr. Warsh: it is time to discuss it, not to foster hesitancy. The goal is not to get rid of all vaccines. The goal is to have the healthiest kids possible. We Dr. Taz: have all these vaccines. We're not studying what the cumulative load is doing to these folks. Dr. Taz: What is the science behind those vaccination schedules? This is a massive concern. This is an epidemic, and we're not having the right conversations around it. Many of you may know I started my medical career in pediatrics. I love children. I still do. I would've had probably 20 if I could have, but life got a little busy. Dr. Taz: But one of the challenges along the way for me personally. Was the health of my son. And lo and behold, after his four month shots, he became very sick. And what was a minor gut issue turned into something major, making me a clinically trained pediatrician question. Our vaccines in the years since vaccine hesitancy, vaccine counseling, vaccine safety, these are all terms that many of you have come to me with. Dr. Taz: And I too have searched for the answers, but the honest truth is we have not been able to have a conversation around vaccines until today, when now I am so pleased to welcome my next guest. He's an integrated pediatrician like me, and he is bold and daring and jumping into this conversation. Around vaccines. Dr. Taz: Dr. Joel Gator is a popular parenting Instagram, a board certified pediatrician based in Los Angeles, California, who specializes in parenting, vaccines, wellness and integrative medicine. He's the author of Between a Shot and a Hard Place Tackling Vaccine Questions with Balance. Data and clarity. He grew up in Toronto, Canada and completed a master's degree in epidemiology before earning his medical degree from Thompson, Jefferson Medical College. Dr. Taz: Dr. Gator has published research in peer reviewed journals on topics including childhood injuries, obesity and physical activity. He's been featured in a number of documentaries, films, summits, and podcast, and today he's with us on Whole Plus talking about vaccines and what we need to know. Welcome Dr. Dr. Taz: Gator. Dr. Gator, I'm gonna call you Joel because we have talked a lot in the past. You know, we share a love of pediatrics. We have both practiced integrative pediatrics. I know that you were on my podcast probably a few years ago, and we were talking about all the things we'd like to change when it comes to children's health and how, you know, we're really not addressing the way medicine's set up today. Dr. Taz: Really not addressing the greatest threats to our children overall. And. I know that, um, it's so comforting for me to see a community of pediatricians who are starting to think and practice in the same way. But today we are going to address the elephant in the room, one that I personally have been terrified to address because you get labeled very quickly. Dr. Taz: We're gonna talk about vaccines. We're actually gonna go there and discuss all of this chatter around vaccine. Scenes, you know, are they good? Are they bad? Is there a conspiracy against our kids? What do we need to be thinking about? So you have actually written a book to tackle this very topic. Tell us about why you wrote the book and what you are thinking when it comes to all things vaccines. Dr. Taz: Yeah. I'm, Dr. Warsh: I'm so thankful to be on your program. I think it's such an important topic that we need to talk about. We need to talk about everything and back, you know, when we spoke last time, back when I, you know, used to do podcasts and. Shows and everything like that. I never spoke about vaccines. I literally went on and said, I'll talk about anything but just not vaccines. Dr. Warsh: Not vaccines, right. 'cause it's just so controversial and it's so unfortunate. But as I've gone through my career and now that I have been practicing for almost a decade doing integrative medicine, and I'm not against Western medicine at all, I just try to balance the best of both worlds. And there's a lot of great things that modern medicine does, but. Dr. Warsh: Parents continually flock to my office. Mainly around the, the fact that they just wanna talk about vaccines. They don't necessarily want to do anything different than the regular schedule. Or maybe they wanna do a slower schedule, but they just want to talk about it. They don't wanna feel like they can't talk about it. Dr. Warsh: They don't wanna feel like they're some crazy anti-vax, you know, parent just because they have questions about a topic and a thing that they're gonna have to do for their kids and give them. You know, many vaccines over the next several years, they just want to talk about it. And I've seen that. I saw it online too. Dr. Warsh: That's what most people ask me about. And I'm having these conversations in my office, but continually not having them anywhere else. And that's not right. Like we need to be able to talk about it. A pediatrician should be able to talk about vaccines and we should be able without being considered a quack or, yeah, without. Dr. Warsh: And talk about the pros and the cons. Talk about the research, discuss it openly, debate it, censorship. It doesn't get to any sort of answers. If you disagree with something, that's fine. You have a debate, you have a discussion. You let the best information rise to the top. That's what we have to do with vaccines. Dr. Warsh: But it has not happened over the last decade or so. Certainly in the last few years, it seems like there's just more and more censorship. You talk about the word and your platform gets shut down. You can't talk about it. You can't, can't Dr. Taz: experience that personally too. So it's, Dr. Warsh: it's, it's not, it's not okay. Dr. Warsh: Like that's not what's gonna get our kids to a place of health and wellness. Not talking about things. What is, is actually talking about things and making the best possible products The. The the best discussion so that way we could figure out what is and is not correct and then point our trajectory in a direction that leads to health. Dr. Taz: I love that. And I think this book is a long time coming, and you're right, there hasn't been a recent book on this topic in a while, and the book again is between a shot and a hard place tackling vaccine questions with balance data and clarity. You know, when it comes to the vaccine world and the vaccine community, I feel like there are only two camps. Dr. Taz: There are the anti-vaxxers. And the people that won't do any vaccines or there are, you know, people that follow right between the lines, the traditional A-E-P-C-D-C vaccination schedule. But like you, what we find in practice is there are a lot of people that just wanna have a conversation. And want to really understand what that middle path is. Dr. Taz: Maybe they have a family member that has had an issue with the vaccine, or there's autism in their family, or there are other health issues. Right. But I think that, you know, not being able to have this conversation is a major crime and we're not doing families justice when we continue to sort of walk the party line without a lot of critical thinking and thought. Dr. Warsh: We have to be able to have discussion so we can do it in the best, safest way possible. And. It seems like whenever you even mention that word, it's like the most controversial word on the internet. Right? And certainly during Covid that was the case and, and everything got shut down if you wanted to have a conversation about it. Dr. Warsh: Even now, recently, mark Zuckerberg said. You know, over the last few months that, that they were even censoring stuff That was true. Just because they didn't want to promote hesitancy. And that's not, that's so wrong. It's so wrong. Like it's Dr. Taz: so like wrong on every level. Why doctors? I think we knew that was happening. Dr. Taz: Right? We knew it. I think we, I mean like, I don't know about you. Mm-hmm. But like the minute I'd put a post up that. You know, mentioned, you know, something that wasn't the party line, it would get taken down. Mm-hmm. You know, we, our ads would get blocked. You know, all kinds of things were happening. Kind of just from a algorithmic standpoint. Dr. Taz: You know, I had learned, unfortunately, the hard way, probably eight to 10 years ago about. Not talking about it. Uh, I, I was on a national television show where I was asked a question about it. I thought my answer was very, you know, conciliatory. I was all about, 'cause we're not anti-vax and I think we need to lead this conversation saying that, I don't think you are. Dr. Taz: I know I'm not, we are not anti-vaxxers. However, we do need to understand that with the changing environment. What children can and cannot handle is changing and the schedules have changed, which I know you're gonna talk about. But I think my very sort of bland answer created so much controversy, you know, that I actually had to go and get lawyers to defend myself, send studies. Dr. Taz: It was, it was a whole thing. And it, and it. Left such a bad taste in my mouth that I swore I never wanted to talk about it again. So this is the first time I'm stepping back out on that ledge, and I'm so proud of you for having the courage and the guts to, to actually write about this because I do think it's something that families need and something that children need to hear about as well. Dr. Taz: Now the book for everyone listening and watching is between a shot and a hard place. I love that. Tackling difficult vaccine questions. With balance, data and clarity. So you write this book or you're working, you know, through this book. You know what, how do we make sense of the noise? There is so much noise. Dr. Taz: There is everything from vaccines are bad, all vaccines are bad. Don't do any of 'em. How dare you even recommend wine. What, you know, you're not in our holistic camp to, all vaccines are good and you know, the science is there and the data is there, and this is what children need. If you're a parent. It's really confusing, right? Dr. Taz: Who do you believe? What do you trust? So talk to us first, maybe just about the polarization. Why do we have this all? Yes, all no mentality. When it comes to vaccinations, Dr. Warsh: it's extremely confusing and there's no way, it couldn't be confusing for a parent because it's confusing for me. And the more that you dive into it, the more confused you get. Dr. Warsh: And I've had these conversations over and over again, and when you're trying to make a medical decision, you're trying to weigh the risks versus the benefits and. The data out there is so one sided, no matter what you look at. It's either the vaccines are the best thing in the world, or they're the worst thing in the world and there's almost nothing in between. Dr. Warsh: Mm-hmm. And there never really was a great resource that I had to point parents to. That's something in the middle that gathers all the data that talks about. What Paul Offit said right beside what RFK said. Mm-hmm. Or, um, Peter Hotez right beside, um, Neil Miller. Like these, these are all reasonable sources of information and you have to be able to look at each, each piece of the puzzle and put them together. Dr. Warsh: And I have never believed in telling people what to do. Right. I think our job as physicians is to teach and it's to inform and it's. To give people all the information so they can make the best decision for them. I've never forced anybody to do anything. I've never told somebody to do a vaccine. I discuss the pros and the cons and the families make the decision that's best for them. Dr. Warsh: Most people in my office do get shots. Mm-hmm. They, a lot of them do slow schedules. Some do the regular schedule, some don't. But I feel like that's their decision to make. And even with the book, I, I really try not to tell people what to do. I just go through the inform. It's a guide. It's a guide. It's the information on both sides. Dr. Warsh: It's presenting it. All as best as I can. I have a good history in research. I, I have a master's in epidemiology, so I'm pretty good at going through the research. I've done a literature review, so I tried to take it from that perspective and not cherry pick. I mean, if you look at a book by someone who's very, very pro vaccine, the, the products look completely different than somebody else. Dr. Warsh: Like you could look at hepatitis B in one book. Versus a different book and you're like looking at two different products and they're saying that, that this is the worst thing in the world versus the best thing in the world. And there's no research that says anything is a problem. And then there's all these studies that show that, that the vaccine has side effects. Dr. Warsh: It's like, how do you know what to believe? 'cause you read two different things and they give you totally different information. And somewhere in the middle Dr. Taz: is the truth Dr. Warsh: and, and right. The only way we're gonna get somewhere is to have discussions and debates. And that is why I wrote the book, not to foster hesitancy not to. Dr. Warsh: Tell people what to do, just to open up the dialogue because it is time. To discuss it well, so the best information can out there. Dr. Taz: I wanna start, I mean, we have so much to talk about here, but I wanna start with a cultural conversation around this first and then we're gonna go into the science component of it. Dr. Taz: Where did we can call it vaccine hesitancy? We can call it being anti-vax. Where did the roots. Of that movement begin? Do we know the history? Do we know how that kind of like took hold? Let's talk about that for just a second. Dr. Warsh: I would say the biggest factor there would've been the Andrew Wakefield study. Dr. Warsh: I think that in the late nineties he came out with a study that related MMR to autism. Mm-hmm. And, and the study wasn't great and there was a lot of bias and it was retracted and actually was retracted for good reason after it really looked into it. So I, I think that that's where it all started because there was a lot of discussion around MMR and whether that caused autism or not. Dr. Warsh: Mm-hmm. Um, and that kind of led to a push back to looking into autism and, and research and vaccines and saying they absolutely don't cause autism. And so that's where the back and forth I think really started, began. I mean, there certainly was some. Stuff before I found like very interesting history on Alfred Russell Wallace, who like worked with Darwin. Dr. Warsh: Mm-hmm. Back in the day and like he was very anti-vax in like 18 hundreds. Wow. So it was, it's really interesting. There's actually like from before, but I think the modern, um, what we would call anti-vax probably started around. That time. Dr. Taz: Okay. Dr. Warsh: And there was a lot of pushback from that. Dr. Taz: And then I know that there a lot of parents Tell me about like the vaccine injury database and how that's grown over time. Dr. Taz: Are you familiar with that? Tell us a little bit about that and, and how that plays into maybe vaccine hesitancy, being anti-vax. Give us a sense of that. So Dr. Warsh: the way that. Research works for vaccines. You have your pre-licensure trial. So those are all done by the, the generally the companies or whoever's doing the research on the products. Dr. Warsh: Once it's approved, then it hits the market and then it's followed up, uh, post licensure. So we have a few different databases and ways that we. Monitor vaccines after. So VAs, the Vaccine adverse reporting is the main one. Mm-hmm. And that's self-reporting. There's also the vaccine data link Safety data link, which is more, um, like a medical record, uh, from a few HMOs. Dr. Warsh: But the, the one you're probably talking about is VAs. Mm-hmm. Uh, and that. Is self-reported. So anybody can report an injury after they get a vaccine, whether it's the patient, whether it's the doctor, uh, whether it's the company. Anybody can, and they're supposed to if they think there's a reaction, but it's self-reported and I. Dr. Warsh: Most research when you look at the reporting shows that it's way under-reported or way over-reported, depending on the situation. So in general, things are under-reported because most people just don't go out and take the time. A doctor doesn't either make the association that it was from the vaccine or they just don't want to do it 'cause it's extra paperwork and they have enough to do. Dr. Warsh: And also, sometimes you'll see people over report because there's a lot of media around something. So any sort of reaction that's similar, someone might report it. It doesn't have to actually be from the vaccine. So I think with Covid. We saw that where anything that happened anywhere near the shot would be reported to va. Dr. Warsh: So there were a lot more reports, um, right after that. Similarly, when HPV came out, there were a ton of reports around HP around that time and. Some of that for sure is just, we're aware of it. So people are reporting things. I mean, some of it's true as well, but you get a lot more reporting when there's a lot of media around something. Dr. Taz: Well, I think one of the things, conspiracy theories, whether it's true or false, I don't personally know, but one feeling I know that the, the community has around vaccines is that the government is hiding vaccine injuries from us. Do you think that's true or false? Dr. Warsh: I don't know if they're specifically actively hiding things, but I, I think that there is, if you are a vaccine safety researcher or that's your job, you're not gonna be looking for or promoting things that show issues. Dr. Warsh: So I, I don't know if it's an active omission, but it's certainly like a passive omission. I, I don't know that we're. Hiding anything and there's some sort of huge conspiracy. But I think that there is a, a push to continue to show vaccines as safe and minimize reporting on the risk. Yeah. Because anything that shows risks, they feel like is gonna create hesitancy and people just stop doing it, which is crazy. Dr. Warsh: It's ridiculous. Like everything has risks. Yeah. And we understand it. And, and I try to make the comparison to cancer medication. We're like, we know you might lose your hair if you get cancer drug. You might, uh, it might destroy your immune system, but it might save you from cancer. So you. Learn about the risks and the benefits and you decide if you wanna do it or not. Dr. Warsh: That's how we do everything else. But for vaccines, it's like we can't mention any possible risk when there, of course is possible risk. I mean there, there are all sorts of things written in the inserts and in the reports, so we know it can cause seizures. We know it can cause encephalopathy. We know it can cause bere syndrome. Dr. Warsh: That's not conspiracy theory. It happens, it doesn't happen often from what's reported, but it happens. So. There's no reason we can't discuss the actual risks and for our kids, we need to be looking into this because the goal is not to get rid of all vaccines. The goal is to have the healthiest kids possible, and the only way we're ever gonna get there. Dr. Warsh: Is by being honest and saying, well, vaccines cause X, Y, and Z. Let's figure out why and let's see if we can improve that. If it's related to asthma, maybe there's an ingredient in there that we can change or, or improve. And that's not crazy because we've done it many times. We've changed out the. The whooping cough vaccine. Dr. Warsh: It used to be the whole cell DTaP. Now it's, or it used to be the whole cell DTP. Now it's DTaP. We used to have an initial rotavirus and they change it to a different rotavirus 'cause it was causing a interception. The original polio vaccine was giving people polio more than people were actually getting polio. Dr. Warsh: So it's not. It's, it's nuance. Like we're, we're trying to make them as safe as possible and there's precedent for that. But if we just say that they're not causing any problems, we're never gonna make them better. That's not fair. Right. Dr. Taz: Well, what do you, and so then the other, let's do one more, you know, thought that I've heard from sort of the anti-VAX community or those that are vaccine hesitant. Dr. Taz: Um, they believe that there are special interest involved in vaccine promotion. What's your opinion on that? And are we ever really gonna know? Dr. Warsh: There certainly are special interests involved. I mean, the companies that make the products wanna sell their products. So if you look at the research, it's obviously biased. Dr. Warsh: It's biased by the company. That's gonna be the way it is for anything. They're trying to make a product and they're trying to sell it. Our job. Is to monitor that police that make sure it's correct, make sure the data they're doing is appropriate. And I think that over the years we've just lost sight of the bigger picture where the, the governing bodies are really watching over these things and, and monitoring to make sure that there's checks and balances. Dr. Warsh: I think we've lost a lot of checks and balances 'cause the pharma companies have gotten so big that they, they know how to do everything. They know how to do the research, they know how to. Uh, create the studies to get the findings that they want. They know how to make things that are a comparison that maybe isn't the best comparison for safety. Dr. Warsh: Like a lot of the trials are done, one vaccine versus the earlier version, or a vaccine versus the same vaccine without the antigen in it. So it's not the optimal safety testing. And that's when you hear people like RFK or other people saying, well, we want safety testing. Yeah. They, they do safety testing. Dr. Warsh: Like that's not, it's not the bias safety testing. They, they do. Um. If you want to call it bias, I think that's reasonable. They do safety test. They do their testing in a way that's gonna maximize their chance to get good data. Yeah. Right. Be because they can say the vaccine is safe, but realistically they, you should be saying the vaccine is not more dangerous than. Dr. Warsh: That one we're testing it against, it's like the new MMR is not more dangerous than the old MMR. It doesn't mean that it's overall safe. 'cause everybody in the trial could grow a third arm. It's Dr. Taz: language. Yeah, right. It's language. But that matters. I love the language and the messaging. It's definitely, it's interesting. Dr. Taz: So I would say that's true for medicine across the board, not just for vaccines. We know that a lot of the research, which you know, doctors get. Put their scientific armor on and their white coats on, and start putting their boxing gloves on and talking about research. But we know that a lot of the research is, is that right? Dr. Taz: It is funded in different ways. Oftentimes, results are manipulated for particular outcomes. So I think as a consumer, you know, and then as a parent, we just have to keep that in mind, you know? And one of the, the goals I have for this show in particular is to help, you know, people find that middle path, because you do have. Dr. Taz: Interest even with research. And we, the doctor, have been educated in this system that is also funded by that same process. And I think it makes it very difficult for us as physicians and clinicians, it makes it difficult for, you know, parents and family members and individuals making medical decisions. Dr. Taz: And I think at the end of the day, you know, we do need a, a revolution in medicine and we really need a different way of. Funding research, interpreting research, and if that's gonna be the stick that we fall on, you know, Dr. Warsh: can I say, 'cause I wanna, I think that's a really important point. Yeah. 'cause it's not that doctors are bad people or giving people medicine that, that they think is gonna, like, that's obviously not what's happening. Dr. Warsh: No. Doctors are great people and we've been taught something and I, I just think that we actually don't know a lot because we don't have the time to actually go read this stuff ourself. And we don't realize how the tentacles of. Big pharma and these companies have permeated everything, everything. Like they fund the schools, they fund the journals, they fund the research. Dr. Warsh: They, they pay the politicians. Like they do all of these things purposely, and we don't see it. But I, I make the joke in the book, it's like, you don't go to medical school and you get a lecture on why not to trust Pharma 1 0 1. Right, right. Like, we don't get taught that stuff. Right, right. And, and, and, and so we just, we just hear things that are said over and over again. Dr. Warsh: And we believe it. And, and that's truly, and we start walking Dr. Taz: the walk and talk the talk, right? Yeah. You do. Like, especially with, with Totally. Dr. Warsh: And I don't dunno if we're gonna talk about it or if you wanna talk about it, but like, vaccines and autism, oh yeah, we're going there. Don't worry. Hang, hang on to that one. Dr. Warsh: Hang on. All right. That, Dr. Taz: that's a whole, that's a whole worm. So, yeah. I mean, I don't wanna spend, you know, too much time talking about just our medical education in the process of becoming a doctor, but it's demoralizing. For the doctor and the patient. You know, it's a fractured relationship because we are sort of robotically, you know, led down this field. Dr. Taz: And it's only, it's so funny when I hire new doctors, 'cause they're very academic and they're all about the research. And you put them, talk to them again in about five years of clinical practice and you start to see them soften a little bit and understand that the research, while it's important and it's a guide, it's not the Bible. Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. You know, and we've gotta have a way. To, to be smart about what we're thinking about even when it comes to research. Okay. Let's flip over to the other side. We've got the American Academy of Pediatrics, you know, American Medical Association. We have all this governing the CDC that puts these schedules out for vaccinations for our children, right? Dr. Taz: Starting with our newborns who, mm-hmm. Boom, right away. They get that Hep B vaccine and they're off to the races. What is the science behind those vaccination schedules? And what has evolved, I'm gonna follow that up. This is probably a long, a long question, but what is happening with the vaccination schedule that it seems like almost every couple of years it doubles or triples in the amount of vaccines being recommended to our very young children? Dr. Taz: Talk to us about that for a second. Dr. Warsh: So let's start there. Um, so if you just look at the schedule, you go back, you know, 50 years or so, we had way, way, way fewer vaccines than we have now, and we continually increase that schedule. I mean, you started with smallpox and then we stopped using smallpox. You had to DTaP and polio, and then you just added more and more vaccines. Dr. Warsh: And now we're getting multiple vaccines. On some days you could at six months have six different vaccines in the same day you could get the VAs vaccine, which has dt a hib. Polio Hep B, you get the pneumococcus vaccine, you could get the Rotavirus vaccine, you get the flu vaccine, you get the Covid vaccine all in one day, and that's the technical regular schedule right now. Dr. Warsh: So it just continues to explode as more and more vaccines hit the market. Now, as on a positive side, we have protection against more diseases. Good, theoretically, but you have more and more shots that keep hitting the recommended schedule and. A reasonable parent would have the question, is there too much? Dr. Warsh: Are we overloading the system? Are we, are we taking this into account? And the reality with the research is they're not really taking those things into account because you're studying vaccines kind of on their own, right? They're doing them preclinical trials and there's not. Really research that shows all these things together. Dr. Warsh: Which ones are best when they should be given? It's more consensus from these bodies. So we're not studying Dr. Taz: the cumulative load. Not really. You're studying vaccine A, vaccine B, vaccine C, correct. But not what A, B and C do at the end of the day to the entire immune system or gut health of a child. This is, I've gotta share the story for a quick second, but. Dr. Taz: Part of my journey. You know, I trained as a pediatrician. I practiced pediatrics, I worked in the emergency rooms, I did all that stuff, and then I got sick. As many people have heard that story, you know, over and over again. But I was still very young in my learning. You know, had newly finished the fellowship and was actually pregnant during the fellowship in integrative medicine with Dr. Dr. Taz: Andy Weill, had the first child, had the second child. And so still, you know, wasn't confident is probably the best word to use. Wasn't confident in my decision making, clinical skills I'll never forget. So my son was born and right from day one, really bad gut issues. He had projectile vomiting, would spit across the room. Dr. Taz: I'd sit with him like on my chest and sit up and go to bed at night trying to manage it and control it. Of course, went to our pediatrician at the time over and over again and. I think it was at his two month or four month visit, I think it was the four month visit. You know, I was starting to have a lot of hesitation around vaccines because of his gut health. Dr. Taz: And I had been studying how important the gut is for, you know, overall health and how it's important for detoxing and all these different things. And I knew he had a really crappy gut and I was telling the pediatrician my concerns. And of course she practiced traditional pediatrics. She didn't know anything about it. Dr. Taz: And she was like. She was interpreting that as I was scared of the number of shots he was gonna get. So she's like, let's do the comvax because it's three shots in one and it's only one injection. And in that moment I said yes, and we went home. I kid you not. 48 hours later, I went from having a mild. Gut issue. Dr. Taz: A child with a mild issue to severe failure to thrive, his reflux and his vomiting got out of control. It became so problematic. I, I was carrying him around all the, I mean, I'll get emotional if I tell you how challenging. The next six months were after that. But because I had had a little bit of knowledge, like I was able to start to restore his gut, kind of get him back to normal. Dr. Taz: But that was our tipping point. And when parents are saying there's a tipping point, I think we as clinicians really need to hear them. And so, you know, you bring up such a good point. We have all these vaccines. We're not studying what the cumulative load is doing to these folks. Is there any research on that at all? Dr. Warsh: Very little because. Y To do proper studies like that, you would have to do them prospectively and you would have to do clinical trials, and there's nobody really doing that. The only clinical trials you have usually are with that vaccine. Sometimes they're commonly given with some of the other shots, but they're not studying that. Dr. Warsh: They're studying specifically the reactions from the one vaccine in the setting of the other ones, which is very different than looking at things prospectively overall. So not really, and certainly there's a whole bunch of new vaccines recently, so. Those wouldn't have been included in anything that has been done, but there is very little research in that way because the vaccines are just assumed to be safe. Dr. Warsh: And so that's just what we do. And Dr. Taz: then why do we keep adding 'em? Like why, why is there, you know, rotavirus, then there's HPV, then there's, you know, you know Hep A. Then there's, I feel like every few years there's a new guy on the street. Why? Dr. Warsh: There is because. We have more and more research and the companies know these are very lucrative and these are diseases that can injure children, that people can die. Dr. Warsh: So there's a positive to them as well. So you but it, the question really becomes just because you can make a vaccine. Should you, and where is the risk benefit analysis and where has it become too much? Right? Because you could easily say, well, do we really need Hepatitis B, but for the baby that is gonna get Hepatitis B and die, yeah, they, they could have used that before they got Hepatitis B and died. Dr. Warsh: So there's not, it's not an all negative, but when you talk about something like Hepatitis B at birth, it was originally for high risk populations. Uh, then they decided that there are still kids that are getting Hepatitis B. There's still people that are cares of hepatitis B. So it's technically possible that a baby could get it or a child could get it from someone who's a carrier. Dr. Warsh: Uh, so they decided to just give it to everybody. And overall, the, the benefit of that is that the amount of Hep B in the population has decreased. So that part is good, but the question is at what cost? What, what is that doing to you long term and is it worth it? Is it worth it? Yeah. For you specifically and and like your story with your family. Dr. Warsh: That is what we're not listening to. We're not listening to moms. We're not listening to real stories of real people to try to figure out, okay, I'm a pediatrician. I believe in vaccines, but maybe there is a child that's a little bit more high risk. Because of their gut issues or because of their family history or because of whatever that maybe this is the kid that we really don't do vaccines for a few months, or maybe they just start their vaccines when they're three and we wanna have herd immunity. Dr. Warsh: But maybe for those kids that are a little more sensitive, we're, we're, we're watching over them a little bit more closely. Like that's. That's not a discussion that's had. Right? It's almost like, well, your kid's high risk, therefore you're, you should get the vaccines more. Right? Right. And, and that isn't necessarily true if they're triggering things in those children. Dr. Warsh: And I don't think we have the research or the data to be able to support the claims that they don't ever do those things, even though mainstream says that. They're safe, right? But I don't, so we've Dr. Taz: got the ap, we've got the C, D, C. What other agencies are involved in the regulation of our vaccines and in the publishing of a vaccine or a recommended. Dr. Taz: Vaccine schedule. Dr. Warsh: It's really those, I mean the a asip, so there's the, the committees for it, but it's really the, the ap, those are the two big ones. Gotcha. For the, for kids. And then, you know, the adults is the American Medical Association. Dr. Taz: So I love this, uh, stat, I just have to mention it. Public trust in physicians and hospitals has significantly decreased, plummeting from 71% in April of 2020 to just 40% in January, 2020. Dr. Taz: Four. We know that overall our medical system needs a, a revamp, a reboot revolution, whatever we wanna call it. And we know vaccines are a part of that, and it might be contributing to some of the vaccine hesitancy, but I know that one thing that does contribute to vaccine hesitancy is the statistics that we cannot get away from, which is where the rate of autism has quadrupled. Dr. Taz: You know, over the last five to 10 years, if we look at over, you probably know the numbers better than me. Over the last 20 years, we're seeing more autism than we've ever seen it before. Mm-hmm. How do we reconcile vaccines, increasing rates of autism, environmental changes, you know, what's the relationship? Dr. Taz: What's going on? Do vaccines cause autism? Dr. Warsh: All right, so great question. I'm gonna start with the first part with the hesitancy and then we'll talk about autism and second. Okay. Because I think that's a super important point that you look at the how people feel about medicine and the respect is gone. Dr. Warsh: Yeah. And that really plummeted during Covid because people were very clearly lied to about many things that were very obvious that. You can believe whatever you wanna believe about the shop. But when you say something like safe and effective for something that's new as opposed to what would be more honest, like based on the research that we have, we feel that the benefits outweigh the known risks in the short term. Dr. Warsh: So if you feel like it's the reasonable thing for you, then then go for it. That's a truthful statement. You can't know what something is safe in 10 years, if it hasn't been 10 years, that that's just the way that it is. So I think people just felt. That they weren't being told the whole truth or with the natural immunity, that that didn't count, even though that counted for everything else in the past. Dr. Warsh: So I, I think that those things really lost a lot of trust in medicine and this push to kind of my way or the highway has had the opposite effect where exemptions are the highest they've ever been. Mm-hmm. People's concerns around vaccines are the highest they've ever been, and they don't feel like they're able to have discussions. Dr. Warsh: And even in my office, more people than ever coming in saying, I don't trust anything. I don't wanna do anything. Dr. Taz: Right. Right. Dr. Warsh: And that is the opposite effect that you're having because you're not willing to have conversations. You're trying to stop hesitancy, and you're creating more hesitancy because you're not actually discussing the concerns that parents have like autism, which of course is on everybody's mind. Dr. Warsh: Because you go from, like you said, so we can go back as far as you want, but let's say from 2000, it was one in one 50 and now it's one in 36. Wow. 1 22 in California. Dr. Taz: Oh my gosh. One in six Dr. Warsh: kids have a neural developmental disorder. So those numbers are astronomical and there hasn't been a good reason given for this. Dr. Warsh: Whether you wanna believe vaccines or not. I, we have to Dr. Taz: just, I wanna sit on those numbers. I mean, I. I don't know them as clearly as you do, but now that you say them, it, it is shocking to me. One in 22 kids in the state of California have autism. Mm-hmm. One in 36 in the United States of America. Correct. Dr. Taz: And one in six children have a neurodevelopmental disorder today. Mm-hmm. We have a problem. Dr. Warsh: Right. We have a huge problem. And the question is why? And if you're not willing to talk about every single thing, we're doing, our kids a disservice and. When we talk about vaccines and autism there for years, we hear the science is settled. Dr. Warsh: There's so much research. What are you talking about? We know the vaccines don't cause autism. Stop talking about it. Right? Like that's the kind of mentality, right? That's what I was taught. I mean, I was taught the va, the science is settled. There's so much science. So that's what I always said. I was like, okay, the vaccines don't cause autism and. Dr. Warsh: You have to actually go look at the research, which nobody does, right? We, we don't take time to go actually read it, so you don't actually know what's there. But when you do, go look at it. And when I did for the book and I did this as thoroughly as I possibly could, it's the most shocking thing I've ever seen in my whole life. Dr. Warsh: Like, not hyperbolic. The, the research doesn't exist. Like it just doesn't exist. There's no such way you could say vaccines don't cause autism. You can't say that they do. 'cause you need research for that. But you certainly can't say that vaccines don't cause autism. 'cause the research is very specific to MMR and thiol. Dr. Warsh: The research is pretty much around the two bigger controversies that we've had in the last years. Like there was the Wakefield study, right? So then they had some research on MMR and then there was concern around a thy Marisol, which has mercury in it. So they did some research on that. They ended up taking the thy marial outta the vaccines except for the multi-dose flu. Dr. Warsh: So it's not even overly important anymore to go through that research because they took it out. But that's where the research was done and that's what they're basing those claims on. But there aren't studies on all the other vaccines and you get MMR when you're one. So to be able to say that vaccines, you can't say that. Dr. Warsh: You could say with maybe some mild, so we Dr. Taz: should be concerned. This is, we should be studying it. Yeah, we should be studying it. We should be concerned. And we can't have these blanket statements. We can't have Dr. Warsh: these blanket statements because Right. It literally isn't studied. Like we haven't studied DTAP or Hep B or pneumococcus or all these vaccines together. Dr. Warsh: So you could say with like maybe moderate confidence, it's not the best research, but we have pretty good research that says that we don't think the MMR alone causes autism. We don't think that th aerosol causes autism. It probably doesn't. 'cause we took the aerosol out and autism's still going up, but. Dr. Warsh: There are so many ingredients in vaccines and there's so many vaccines and we're doing more and more and more of them. So to make the statement that one thing doesn't cause the other, you can't say that. You shouldn't say that. They do. We actually have to have research to say that we don't have that either. Dr. Warsh: Right. So I'm not saying that vaccines cause autism, but I for sure, I'm saying the science is not settled. Nobody should be saying that because if you look at it, it's so obviously not, and I. When I went through it, I was so surprised at what I didn't find that I was like, all right, I must be missing something. Dr. Warsh: So I gotta go read books. And I read, uh, Paul OITs book, I read Peter Hot's book. Peter Hotez has a book specifically about autism 'cause his daughter's autistic and it's a good book. But you go to the sections that they talk about autism and it's the same thing. They just talk about MMR and Thiomersal, right? Dr. Warsh: And that's their sections. Like Peter Offit literally breaks up his citations, MMR and Thiomersal. If there were other studies, they would obviously. Wave them around. Right. So they, I don't think they exist and I couldn't find them anywhere. So I don't think they exist. And we're making the statement based on those things. Dr. Warsh: And it goes back to, again, it's the wording. 'cause you're saying that there, there's no proof that vaccines cause autism. That's true. Because we don't have the studies to show that it might or might not. Dr. Taz: So in your experience, and we can talk, we can have a clinical. Talk now like a clinician's round table now, but in your experience, you know, what do you think we can attribute the rise in autism to? Dr. Warsh: I would say overall, I mean if you look at the research, there are many theories that have been postulated. I would think that it's the, the food, the crappy food that we have without the nutrients mixed with the chemicals and toxins. I think it's probably many things. I think autism is probably many things. Dr. Warsh: Mm-hmm. I think for some kids it's a. J mostly or fully genetic issue. I think for, for other kids it's uh, some sort of in utero insult. I think for other kids it's some sort of toxic exposure. Maybe when they're born, maybe after they're born, uh, maybe they're not getting the, the nutrients that they need. Dr. Warsh: It's, it's some sort of mixture, multi factorial, multifactorial. It's probably many different things, and that's why for some kids that. That do work on changing their lifestyle, they can see their symptoms vastly improve versus other kids, it doesn't make all that much of a difference. So I think it's many different things. Dr. Warsh: But to hypothesize that vaccines couldn't be a trigger for some kids with some genetics or something not fair. That's just a, well, it's almost should be studied almost like, you know, Dr. Taz: I mean, not to. To switch gears here, but it's almost like every other conversation in medicine. It's the HRT conversation. Dr. Taz: It's the mammogram conversation. It's, it's many of these conversations where people have been like, you know, shaking the research at us and saying The research, the research, the research. But at the end of the day, the research itself was flawed. That's what we saw with the Women's Health Initiative, with hormone replacement therapy. Dr. Taz: And generations of women have suffered because of that. Right? And so now we're having kind of the rebound there. We. See it with screening for breast health. We're having, we're just now seeing some new research on what options should look like and what we should be doing when it, and when it comes to women's health and Alzheimer's. Dr. Taz: I mean, Alzheimer's research, we could, we could tap all so many, so, so, but this is about our children and their future and their ability to be productive and happy in society. Not to mention the macro picture of what does it mean to have. These escalating rates of autism in the community, who's gonna take care of these people as they turn into adults and all the other things. Dr. Taz: So, so this is a, this is a massive concern. This is an epidemic, and we're not having the right conversations around it. Mm-hmm. I'll tell you what I, I see from my vantage point from our clinics is that, and I said this. Before I said 10 years ago, and I'm gonna say it again today, that autism is an inflammatory disease. Dr. Taz: It's an autoimmune disease in my perspective. And like every other autoimmune disease out there, it's not a single hit. It's usually multifactorial. So it starts oftentimes with a bad gut, a leaky gut, chronic inflammation, and that in it. Itself can come from multiple places. Toxins in the environment, like you said, a genetic predisposition, right? Dr. Taz: So we'll screen in our practice, you know, I don't know if you guys do this too, but we'll screen for like M-T-H-F-R, some of these mutations. Mm-hmm. You know, and then adjust the vaccine schedules based off that, because we know that that population has. A weaker detox capacity. They're more sensitive, those type of things. Dr. Taz: We do do individualized vaccine schedules, and we look to see what gut health looks like. Are they gaining weight? Are they thriving? Are they active neurodevelopmentally? And I think some of this is where you and I are so aligned that we have to think about medicine this way, you know? Mm-hmm. And we have to really adjust what we're doing in the vaccine conversation and find that middle road, rather than forcing everybody into these very two. Dr. Taz: To like opposing cams, you know? Right. And, Dr. Warsh: and I think it's really, really, really important to say we have to listen to parents. Yes. We have to listen to moms. Thank you. Like Dr. Taz: moms know. Moms know they know all. So what, Dr. Warsh: what, uh, reason does a mom have to lie? This is a mom who brought their kid into the doctor, who's obviously not anti-vax because they're getting their vaccines. Dr. Warsh: And then something happens and then their kids change drastically within the next day or two. Now, yes, sometimes that could just happen to happen, but how many stories over and over again do you have to hear before you take note, before you respect what is being said? It, it's, that's not science, right? Dr. Warsh: That's not science, that's anecdote. But science is based on anecdotes. You get cases case. Series. You get a bunch of anecdotes, you make a hypothesis based on what you're hearing about over and over again, and then you study it and just to shove these people into a category and call them anti-vax and crazy kooks. Dr. Warsh: These parents had their kids, have something happen to them and we hear in the same story over and over, over again, and it's time that we listen to them and respect that and give that research. It's due and give these parents a platform to discuss this so that way we can do what's best for our kids. We need partners. Dr. Warsh: You Dr. Taz: know, like I think back to me as that mom trying to figure this out as a physician, you know, with a little bit of knowledge and still being so lost, I can't imagine what I. You know, the average parent feels like out there trying to navigate this information. We're on Dr. Warsh: the Dr. Taz: same team. We're all on the same, same team doctor. Dr. Warsh: We're all here to try to have healthy kids. Maybe not everyone agrees on how to get there, but we are on the same team. And if we're not listening to each other and we're just kicking people out because of their opinions or we're not having respectful conversations, that doesn't move things forward. Dr. Warsh: It's goes the opposite direction and that's what's happening. Medicine's PR has failed, totally failed 'cause we've just forcing our opinion. Dr. Taz: You know, let's do something for everybody listening and watching today. If you're a first time parent or if you're a parent of young children, what would you tell them to do? Dr. Taz: What, what is their best course of action Dr. Warsh: in terms of, uh, vaccines, general Dr. Taz: vaccines, thinking, well, vaccines and actually thinking about their children's health. What are, what are some of the things that you know are helpful when they're trying to sort through and make some of these decisions? Dr. Warsh: I, I think one of the biggest things is finding someone that you trust that you can have open conversations with if you're have questions or concerns. Dr. Warsh: And I think it's important to start to research this a little bit yourself, but at the same time, you need to find a good partner. And there are certainly doctors out there that are willing to have this conversation. And the more parents that move their kids into practices, that doctors are willing to have the conversation, the more that this is gonna open up the conversation for everybody. Dr. Warsh: And I think that's what we. Need to do. So I, I just think that you have to understand that it's not crazy to have questions. A good parent has questions about anything that they do and that's reasonable. And find someone you feel like you can speak to and ask your questions, uh, so that you can have debates and discussions about the topics if you feel that you need to. Dr. Warsh: So I think that's really important for vaccines and I think for health in general. It's really important to take our power back and to understand that we actually have a lot of control over our family's health, but it's something we have to prioritize and it's something we certainly haven't prioritized for the most part over the last 20, 30 years. Dr. Warsh: We, we prioritize faster, cheaper, making more money, doing more activities, like that kind of stuff, but we're not focused on cooking family meals and spending time together and getting off of screens and going for nature walks and these kinds of things. Like that actually really is what the big. Dr. Warsh: Difference maker is for health, and I think we need to reprioritize those kinds of things and that will make a huge difference for your own family's health. While we're waiting for. Medicine to catch up the research and medicine to catch up, Dr. Taz: which usually in my experience, takes 20 to 30 years. Mm-hmm. Dr. Taz: Right. You're a new dad, right? Mm-hmm. How many children do you have? Two. Two. How old are they? Dr. Warsh: So they are five and, uh, a year Dr. Taz: and a year. Wow. What would you tell all the new dads out there if you had to give them any parenting advice? Maybe one parenting tip for all new dads. I think it's true. Putting up with all of his crazy moms. Dr. Taz: Yeah, it's tru Dr. Warsh: Trust your gut. You know, I think it's, it's something that we are just not taught anymore. We feel like. We don't trust what we know innately. There's so much competing information out there, there's so much noise, and at the end of the day, you know your kid best. And I, I think we need to take in all that information and do what feels best for our kid. Dr. Warsh: And, and, and you don't always have to know exactly what the right thing to do is. You won't, but as long as you're an active, caring parent, you're gonna figure out things as you go. And that's what, what, what our kids really need. Dr. Taz: Amazing. All right, one more question. Mm-hmm. What makes you whole? Dr. Warsh: What makes me whole? Dr. Warsh: I think spending time with my family, eating great food, healthy food and, and just really. Focusing on, on being happy today. Dr. Taz: I love it. Family's so important. So many of my guests keep bringing up family is what at the end of the day, really makes them whole. Alright, your book comes out May 20th we believe. Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. And it's between a shot and a hard place tackling difficult vaccine questions with balance, data, and clarity. Congratulations. Thank you for doing the work that you're doing. I will be cheering you along the way. This is something you're and dear to my heart as well, and I can't wait. Dr. Taz: For parents to be able to use it as a resource and a guide for them. So thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening and watching today's episode of Whole Plus, be sure to share this episode with your friends and family. And if you have it already, please take a moment to subscribe to this podcast on YouTube, or click the follow button on Apple, Spotify, or wherever it is that you get your podcast. Dr. Taz: Don't forget to follow me on all social channels at Dr. Taz md. Until next time, stay healthy and stay whole.