Latest / The Data Shaman Podcast - Quant Mind, Shaman Soul / From HSBC to The Vurger Co., and Losing It All | Neil Potts

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From HSBC to The Vurger Co., and Losing It All | Neil Potts · The Data Shaman Podcast - Quant Mind, Shaman Soul

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: When the meadows full of strangers, and the loudbirds take the stage.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: I keep my colors folded like a letter on its page.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome everyone.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm here with Neil Potts, and here is an episode of Bucket I Quit.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: And today we're gonna hear about Neil's life, Neil's journeys in the world of entrepreneurship, and I'm really looking forward to this conversation.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: Neil, welcome.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_04: Thanks very much for having me.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I think people would not know that we used to be desk buddies sitting next to each other.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_04: This is true.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, this is true.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I I remember one thing about you.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: In it was maybe 2015 or 16, something like that.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and uh he used to come in the office after having maybe went to a market to buy lots of fresh produce, and after having uh done a papa kitchen somewhere in Shoreditch, I think in London.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: And to me that was absolutely mental because I thought, wait a second, you are working in banking, you are on the 40th floor, a skyscraper in Canary Wharf.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Why the hell are you doing this?
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: So tell me a bit about your history.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: How did you come to spend your morning going through wholesale markets for fresh produce?
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_04: It's a great question.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_04: Um, yeah, it's a good question.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_04: I I uh you first of all, you have a great memory.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you're exactly right with with that recollection.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, I've I've always felt, I think, a little like a square peg in a round hall.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I've never in all of the jobs I've done really in my life, um, I started in property in London, uh, I did another property job and then another one, and then I got into banking, which is where we met.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but in in all of those jobs, really, I've taken something from them.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_04: I've enjoyed them.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_04: You know, there's been aspects of it that I've that I've kind of clicked with, but there's also been many things that I've just kind of gone home at night and started thinking, well, I don't know what I'm doing here.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, the the the food thing was my previous business.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_04: So I'm guessing we'll we'll get onto that.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_04: But yes, essentially we started that business, my partner and I, uh both working full-time.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, we did that for about I think seven, eight months, something like that.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so yes, we were we were doing pop-ups in the evenings in Shoreditch a couple of times a week.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_04: I was going to produce markets in London, uh near Borough Market, just behind.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I was going there at like four in the morning, buying the stuff we needed for the evening, going to work, then going to the pop-up, then setting it all away, and then doing it all again.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_04: So, yes, you probably saw me uh extremely exhausted.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, I think you're actually probably one of the few people I actually told what I was doing.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_04: I was so scared that I I would get in trouble for being uh not my full self in work.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_04: But yes.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: And and that activity, that enterprise actually became quite successful because you opened what four uh fast food fast food joins.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah what what was the name of it?
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: What was the product?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_04: It was called the Virga Co.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_04: So that's Virga Burger with a V, uh the Virgako.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, we had restaurants.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_04: We had uh we had four in the end.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_04: So we had Shoreditch, Canary Wharf, uh, which was a bit of a homecoming.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um uh Brighton and Manchester.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but we also had um products, condiments, mainly mayo's, but also some like cheesy type sources in stores in uh the UK, UAE, and US.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_04: Um so yes, it was it was pretty successful for a while.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and again, I'm sure we'll get into the the the meat of that, but um, but yes, it it it uh was successful for a while.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: That that that's good.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: So let's get into the meat of it.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, perfect.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so well, meat of it is quite ironic because it's a vegan business.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_04: Um so yes, we started in officially in 2016, so while I was still at HSBC, um, we started with market stalls, pop-ups, um, you know, all sorts of events, and the business came from you may remember, I don't know, I can't remember if I talked about it, but we I had for years before that, I had stomach problems.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_04: Um I would periodically get really bad stomach pain, um, couldn't really figure out why, couldn't really figure out what it was.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_04: I had lots of tests, I had lots of scans, and nothing really was showing as particularly alarming.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_04: So I kind of figured it had to be to do with what I was eating.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I can't say that doctors particularly channeled me in that direction, but you know, I realized there's only so many things that can be wrong if there's nothing major visible wrong.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so I started on this big journey of just exploring, you know, what I'm eating, what's causing me problems, what isn't, and eventually got to meat, red meat particularly, and dairy.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_04: Um, both of which at that time in my life I consumed a lot of.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um well, so living in uh living in Britain, uh, it was difficult not to.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_04: I I agree, yeah, back then, yeah, for sure.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so we were just turning 30, both myself and my partner, and we came to California on a big uh road trip basically to celebrate our birthdays.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_04: And we spent that time pretty much, I think accidentally eating predominantly vegan food.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_04: Um, lots of great restaurants, lots of interesting stuff that wasn't necessarily like my version of a vegan restaurant back then was just this really old-fashioned, really kind of tired-looking place that not many people would be interested in going to.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_04: But over here in in California, we we just came across lots of restaurants that were really interesting, just first and foremost, great restaurants.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_04: And then they happened to be vegan as opposed to designing it the other way around.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_04: And that really kind of flicked a switch for us because not only was I feeling dramatically better, um, you know, almost instantly, I was feeling you know, less symptoms in my stomach.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but also we were both at the time just really itching for doing something for ourselves.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um, with banking, I think it's probably the job I enjoyed the most.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but I was still getting home, like you know, you know, I don't know if we want to bore your listeners with what exactly we were doing, but you know, it was a lot of numbers, a lot of spreadsheets, um, a lot of things which to me were quite abstract.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_04: You know, we were talking about exposures that were so large that I couldn't really, I couldn't really grasp it.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I couldn't really think, well, what does this even mean?
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_04: You know, um, you know, we were rounding to nearest tens of and hundreds of millions.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_04: So I mean, what is that?
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_04: What is that?
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so yeah, I was getting home at night and thinking to myself, okay, well, you know, reasonably paid, um, but what does it mean?
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_04: You know, is this really what I'm gonna do for the next 40 years?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and so yeah, we were just kind of itching to to do something and and try something else, and and it all kind of just came together.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_04: So we started doing the pop-ups.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, we weren't, you know, we weren't able to just throw in our jobs on day one and uh and uh you know go go go full steam ahead.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_04: So we tried to kind of blend that.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_04: We we both worked full-time for maybe six months, then uh Rachel, my partner, worked uh part-time for a few months, and then we both just kind of jumped ship in in 2017.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and yeah, the the rest was the rest was a journey.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um when it comes to um not liking a corporate job, what was it that was really so dreading, apart from the abstraction of this, but more deeply, like it was personal satisfaction, it was fulfillment.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: What was it that you didn't like?
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_04: I think all of those things.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_04: I think I'm I'm um I'm somebody who is well I've subsequently learned that you know there's probably other things at play, but I'm I'm somebody who doesn't sit still very easily.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_04: Um I I like to feel like the work I'm doing, whatever it is, is meaningful.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_04: It's um you know it's helping someone ideally, but it's more importantly, it's it's something that I I feel is worth spending time on.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_04: Um I've really come to realize I've just turned 40, so like the last 10, 10 years especially, I've really been conscious of, you know, I do only have one shot at this, um, this being life.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_04: And so I I kind of feel like, you know, every year that I'm healthy, every year that I, you know, that I'm able to do stuff, I should really be trying to maximize that as much as I can.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and again, I didn't hate my job in any way.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_04: I really didn't.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I really like the people I worked with.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_04: You, you know, you you were a big part of that.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_04: But I I think I just was getting home and just thinking, I'm not sure this is enough for me.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_04: And and and equally I was thinking, well, if it isn't enough, do I want to keep climbing the ladder to a point where um, you know, my salary was good, but it wasn't at a point where I thought, I can't possibly leave this.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_04: Um and I think had I gone on maybe another two, three, four years, you start to creep into to financial territory where it's like really difficult to give that up.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_04: Um so I wanted to, yeah, I wanted to get out before before I got to that point basically.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: Before it became too too late.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_04: Uh yeah, yeah, and too scary.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: I also remember that you also had a cleaning company.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I just yeah, so how how is it that some people are drawn so much to entrepreneurship to the point that they keep on doing different things?
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: What do you uh you talk about restlessness, which I really resonate with.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: But is there something else that you think sort of like is a common trait that is shared across people such as yourself?
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_04: I think, well, for me personally, uh and I know a lot of you know people I know who who do similar things, um it's more that we really enjoy, first of all, enjoy building things, um, you know, enjoy thinking of something and then bringing it to life.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_04: That's a really fun process for me and I know others like me.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_04: Um I think really for me, I just it's it's just about fulfillment and it's about feeling this kind of urge to make sure I'm maximizing my time.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um and yeah, I think I think there are definitely jobs that can give you that.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and there are, you know, we were we were in a great place.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_04: We were with a good employer, we were, you know, reasonably well looked after, we were working on interesting stuff.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but I don't know.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_04: It just, it just, it's just like within you, you know.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_04: You I I've always grown up, even from an early age.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I've always had that.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, I think it's a curse sometimes, but I've always I've always had that feeling that I I want to do my own thing.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and that's not in like a you know narcissistic way, it's in more of a I just I like I like doing things on my own terms.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I think in a big, big company like we were at, it it's really the opposite of that.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_04: You feel very, very small.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I used to, you know, I'd go on vacation, I'd come back and nothing particularly changed, like nothing happened.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_04: I wasn't particularly missed.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_04: And I think you know, that starts to talk to you over time.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_04: It starts to feel like okay, I I don't actually know what I'm adding here, what value I'm bringing.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I'd much prefer the process of creation, you know, building, and then seeing where that can go.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_04: And then, yeah, as you said, I had a cleaning company before that.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and you know, since then I've done other stuff as well.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_04: So I think it's it's not necessarily for me about the thing that I'm doing.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_04: You know, one was food, one was cleaning, you know, uh I'm I'm doing all sorts of other stuff now.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_04: And I think it's more about that process of building, um, which I really enjoy.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think is the actually what is the thing that surprised you about entrepreneurship?
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: Something that maybe you went into it and you completely like blow your mind.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I think how hard it is, you know, it's it's uh it's a really difficult thing to do.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_04: I think people sometimes you can get lucky, sometimes you know, things take off really fast and and you know you you strike gold quickly and at your first try.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah I think most people I speak to who do this, it's it's a grind, you know, it's difficult.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_04: Um you have to motivate yourself every day, you have to figure out every month how to pay yourself.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_04: Um and those things are not easy, you know, year after year after year.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_04: I've been doing this now, uh well, 10 years this year, um, plus a bit of my cleaning business before before we met.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_04: And yeah, I I think it's it's a challenge, but I think um the thing that has probably surprised me the most is you learn a lot about yourself and what you're actually capable of.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and in a way, I liken this to um have a have a Peloton bike, which is going off on a slight tangent, but this is how my brain works.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I used to think, like if I'm in the gym or if I was exercising by myself, I would call time on something when I think I've had enough.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_04: But when you do it with a Peloton instructor, you realize just how much further you can actually go beyond that point that you were going to give up.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_04: Um and you realize that your body will actually do a lot more than you think it will uh past exhaustion.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_04: So I it's kind of similar with with building a business.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_04: You know, we went through things which when I look back, I think, how the hell did we do that?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_04: You know, and not only how the hell, why the hell?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_04: You know, why the hell didn't we just carry on with our safe jobs and you know keep money coming in regularly without really worrying too much?
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't have to worry about where my salary was gonna come from.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_04: Um but you realize you know what you're capable of.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_04: You if you if you look at it looking backwards or even forwards, you're not sure how you're gonna do it.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_04: But when you do it and you push through it, um and you create things that you don't you didn't think were possible, then that's that's a really cool feeling.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's it it is, it is, especially when things start to start to work out in your flavor, like you start to really see the results of it.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: And you you mention often your partner as being a life partner and a business partner, and uh I really struggle to understand that.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I should I should reflect about how I choose my partners, but um was it was it easier with a sort of like to have the two together?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_04: Uh it's easier and harder.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_04: Um, definitely both.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_04: It definitely isn't uh a walk in the park.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_04: Um we I think it's easier because there is total trust.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, you're not getting to know a business partner and trusting them with huge life decisions because you're already past that stage.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_04: You know, we've been together for well over 20 years.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_04: So um, yeah, we're we're we're way past that point.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_04: And I think we really enjoyed the feeling of just total trust between us.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_04: So if it was um whether it was a good thing or a bad thing, whatever we were talking about, whatever difficult conversation we had, we both knew that there was no agenda other than picking the right option.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_04: You know, we weren't trying to gain anything else.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_04: So I think that was that was probably the big thing.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_04: I think second positive was we were able to support each other.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, not always, because we were both exhausted sometimes, we both didn't have enough to give sometimes.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but ultimately we understood each other in a way that I think would be very difficult for if if one person was an entrepreneur building something, the other person had a safe job.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_04: I think it I I can imagine there are there is a lot more tension um because you're just not going to understand fully what that person is going through.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_04: Or well, I think it would be harder to understand what that person is going through.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um on the negative side, it's exactly as you would imagine.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_04: It's you know, your life be your relationship becomes your business, your business becomes your relationship, your life kind of all just blends into one.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so yeah, there was tension, there was, you know, there were difficult times, but um, but for sure overall I wouldn't I wouldn't change a thing.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_04: It was it was great, yeah, from that perspective.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's thank you.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um is it okay if we go into some more life stories and some more specific details?
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, of course.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_04: Go wherever you want.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: When uh you thought in one of those situations where you strike gold.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: When was it?
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: When was one of those situations?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_04: When we struck gold?
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well how how how did it come about?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_04: I think um, you know, I think we probably had a series of uh small increments as opposed to striking gold in one in one hit.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_04: Um I think these days it's maybe more possible, and certainly outside of food, it's more possible to you know really go go big quickly.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but I would say we were more incremental with the way we grew.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_04: I think there were several things that kind of came together for us, kind of key things that that made it work quite well.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_04: One was we were right at the start of, this was you know early 2016.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_04: So we were right at the start of when vegan food was starting to build some momentum.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, certainly in London, uh, we were one of the first people to be doing uh what I would now call a regular restaurant that just happened to serve vegan food.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_04: You know, it's it looks normal now, and it looks super normal to go into Tesco and see vegan mayo on the shelf.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but back then it wasn't, and that's that's the kind of stuff we were doing.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_04: So I think we, you know, timing-wise, we were great.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, you know, we we got the right product, the right business at the right time.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I think separate to that, uh I think things like Instagram were important for us.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_04: Again, at the time, 2016, Instagram was the dominant uh platform.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_04: It was really starting to accelerate quickly.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_04: And Rachel, my partner, is very good at that stuff.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_04: That's pretty much what she does now for a living.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so again, the timing of that plus Rachel being pretty good at it meant that we we we gained a lot of followers really quickly.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_04: I think we ended up with 70,000 followers or something.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_04: So the beauty of that is when you don't have a big marketing budget, which we didn't, yep.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_04: Uh we were doing everything from our salaries.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_04: Um when you say something to tens of thousands of people who are already invested in what you're doing, um we had lines of people, you know, we could post something and have a line of people outside the door, and that's I mean, that's worth more than any anything you could spend on marketing.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_04: So I think those are the two kind of golden things that we had.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I I I started this podcast because when I posted uh about my own story, a lot of people resonated with it.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: When I started to look at my feed on LinkedIn, uh a lot of the stories that are similar to this, sort of like I quit my job to actually start my own business, they receive so much attention, and there is somehow kind of like a inner desire of do things on your own.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: My question would be if somebody comes to you and they have a good nine to five jobs, nine to six jobs, what is the ad but they want to do something else, they want to strike it on their own.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: What kind of advice would you give them?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_04: It's a good question.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_04: I I think the first bit of advice is really a bit of self-exploration.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_04: Um it's getting to the bottom of why you want to do this.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_04: I I would honestly say, on reflection, I've spent a lot of time in corporate jobs, I've spent a lot of time now building my own businesses.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_04: It it isn't for everyone.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_04: And that's not meant to be patronizing in any way, you know, nothing is better or worse, everything's just different.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but it really won't suit everybody.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_04: And I think it's it's really important to.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_04: understand the reality of of what it is and what it isn't.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_04: I think it is it's important to get that information up front so that people don't uh aren't you know are clear on what what exactly it is but I think uh the most important thing I would say is to really do some do some thinking just sitting with it and thinking why is it that I'm that I want to do this why is it that I'm trying to create my own business what is it that I'm trying to create and why um and then I think it's really getting into the details of what that business is and how it's positioned and why is it different and what is the moat of the business going to be um because I think especially now with AI which obviously is good you know it I'm sure I'm sure it helps you it helps me um but I think there is a danger that we we all kind of converge into into one one thing and uh suddenly most of these businesses now a lot of them don't have a moat you know they're just some piece of software that you know has been thrown together by AI but what does it mean you know how does it how do you defend that business from from something else so I think going back to your question uh understanding yourself and your own motivations are you maybe running from a job that you don't like or are you is it more that you actually do want to start a business or are you seeing things on social media which let's be honest uh majority of time are glamorizing what it is um you know there's a lot of people showing off a lot of things on online and I think a lot of them I have learned over time are not what they seem.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: For sure people think that they're a wonderful life.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah exactly and it's it's that's not all it is.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_04: So um yeah I think it's important to just really be laser focused on your motivations and your reasons.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_04: What what what could be like a like a let's say a wrong motivation I think doing it for money necessarily I mean of course we all want to make money but I think if you if you're going to leave a corporate job in our case in banking um and and create your own business because you want to make money then you're gonna be in for a a very rude awakening honestly unless you get very lucky doing something because the reality is my reality at least was many years I mean five or more years before I earned anything close to what I was earning in the bank um and that's the reality if if you if you're not able to to work with that reality then you've got to figure out another way because it's that that is that is the truth.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_04: So I think um yeah I think that the the financial side of it is very important.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: And uh sorry I'm uh trying to sorry it's because actually let me let me let let me put it in this way because what you what you're saying is very I think is very important because there are a couple of things that happen with social media and with the world how it works today that you get to see the successes or the fake success and people are drawn to the success instead of as you said to the self-reflection and say like actually what do I want why would I want to do this because I think lots of people might be better off having a job and actually explore on the side like you did exactly something that let's see if this something like this work for works for me.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly work for my lifestyle and yeah I think that's something that people do not necessarily uh sort of like grasp right away because uh because again it is our it's our job to wake up at four o'clock and go to work and well yeah exactly yeah and I think as well that that a lot of people uh and I've even I've even re-examined this myself over the last few years you know are there jobs out there which are better suited to you you know I think well you and I are I think a similar age so we come from a generation I do certainly in the UK where you really didn't have the understanding of what a job could be back then.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_04: You know 20 years ago 25 years ago it was like you do one of these 15 things and that's it.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_04: You know they're your career choices.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_04: But now honestly I think there are so many people who are miserable in jobs that they thought that were were the right job and are maybe too afraid to explore something else you know they think they're gonna fall behind.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_04: I'm I'm 40 as I say I've just turned 40 and I've restarted my career probably five times.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_04: You have to get comfortable with starting over and being comfortable with you know um letting go of that feeling of you know I was climbing this particular ladder and my goal was to climb this ladder but sometimes that ladder doesn't work out and you've got to go climb a different one.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_04: So I think getting comfortable with that is uh is is gonna be good for people because I think sometimes it's not a business sometimes it's just a job that is going to be more fulfilling for you.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely and uh going back to your journey so what happened to what happened to the Volga?
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah so we were going really well so we um we were growing quickly we were getting investment we were opening new restaurants we were adding supermarket products you know things were were going well um and like most of hospitality uh COVID came um I was actually here in in Los Angeles in March of 2020 uh when the whole thing kind of exploded I was here about to sign with a partner who was going to open a restaurant here.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_04: So that's kind of yeah that's where we were at in March 2020.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_04: And of course I literally had to cut the trip home and fly back because the US at the time were closing the the borders and they weren't allowing anybody in so I had to get back.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_04: And you know the partner fell out.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_04: They didn't want to go ahead anymore understandably um investors suddenly went oh shit hospitality no that's you know that stay away that's nothing to do with us and even our own investors who had you know two weeks ago were yeah let's go ahead and open more they were suddenly like oh nope you know we're not we're not gonna do anymore so it literally I mean people people like to hang hang their hat on covet being the reason for everything but for us in hospitality it it really was you know it was like a total uh perfect storm of of situations that nobody was really prepared for um so we at the time we had a bit of a difficult decision and I think sometimes in business you have to make decisions that you might not always want to make and I don't know but Rachel and I were at the time very new to it and I think even looking back we would have made the same decision again but if you remember in March 2020 restaurants were closed essentially um but they were allowed to do delivery services um at the time so we thought about it and again at the time March 2020 we uh we'd been open just over two years at that point so we were in full flow like full growth mode we had two stores open uh and pushing hard for more and overnight we had to kind of close the doors and figure out you know what to do.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_04: Now at the time it wasn't really clear what this virus was it wasn't clear how dangerous it was you know they were the government were advising everybody to be at home because again they didn't know what it was and they didn't know how to deal with it.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_04: So then we were like well if we're all supposed to be at home and we're being advised to be at home because there's a disease that's killing people, a virus that's killing people, how can we send our staff to work on the tube to make burgers for delivery when we're sitting at home?
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_04: Like how can we do that?
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_04: You know how how would we live with ourselves if one of our staff died or passed it on to their family member who died because we told them they had to go to work to make burgers.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_04: Yep.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_04: And we just we came to a a pretty human conclusion which most of the industry didn't share you know most of the industry didn't do that.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_04: And our investors definitely didn't like it.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_04: But we were like I I don't know I don't know how to do it any other way I won't be I won't be comfortable if we do it any other way.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_04: So we closed completely we closed the restaurant completely delivery everything for about four months.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_04: I think it was three or four months which was obviously a nightmare you know and we did that before we knew anything about furlough um you know before we knew anything about any financial aid and uh yeah it was a nightmare it was a total nightmare we had overheads that were you know crushing us basically um and no revenue so so yeah that was a a kind of terrifying moment really for us we had a lot of personal money and personal kind of uh investment into the business as well so like we were suddenly panicking about that because we couldn't afford to lose you know tons of money um and yeah it was just a very stressful time in general um and I think the problem with the pandemic is there were many problems but I think the opening and closing of what the government did like they you know they closed and then it was fine to open but then they encouraged everybody to go out by giving them free food and then made it worse.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_04: So then we had to close again and then it was just like there was no stability there was no consistency and it was very very difficult to manage that you imagine all the things behind the scenes in a restaurant like buying stock yeah buying fresh produce um you know answering questions on how much people are going to get paid um you know all of these things are really really difficult when you're dealing with you know a different story every day from the government um the other problem we had is the insurance well I'll call it a scam it was an insurance scam like almost no restaurant owners I know were able to claim money from their insurance yep um and they all got out of it by you know calling it an act of God or whatever which I suppose it is but like what's insurance for you know to me I was like well what is it for if it doesn't cover this scenario why do I pay for insurance um so you know that was a big hit we we probably I think we calculated it uh in the early parts of the pandemic we probably lost about three or four hundred thousand pounds um just just to lost revenue and we didn't claim any of that back we still kept our overheads at basically the same same point so yeah you can imagine you can you can do the maths we were we were struggling um I think you know in hindsight as well we had to take on debt to survive so that we had to take on some of the government um I suppose government sponsored debt uh that was being dished out but really I I think the vast majority of people who took that on um didn't have the business model to support it you know it it it was it was desperation debt and if we hadn't taken it we definitely would have closed like straight away yep but we did and then when you come out of the pandemic on the other side um not to mention things like the Russia Ukraine uh war which you know kind of suddenly meant energy prices went through the roof um our energy bills in one restaurant for example went from about a thousand pounds a month to like four or five thousand pounds a month um like pretty much overnight but the problem the main problem then was we were carrying so much debt uh we were battling inflation so costs were way higher than they were before uh we were grappling with nobody then wanted to invest in restaurants at that point um so yeah it was like a a combination of lots of different factors which each on their own would have been difficult to survive but they kind of all happened at the same time so basically very difficult I I I I sort of like I I try to understand what you were cut going through but you know it must have been extremely hard.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_04: The silver lining is that I think you must have learned in those in that period far more than in five six years in banking yeah uh yeah definitely I mean you'll know most of what I knew about banking I got from you so I uh yeah I definitely did and I think the thing that you you know you once you get through the the pain and the you know the bitterness of it um and I think the thing that stings the most is you allow yourself you know there were moments when we were growing where we were raising investment at certain valuations and you start thinking okay like you know this is this is going to make me a lot of money one day yep um and you I don't know I think when you're first when the first time you do that which it was for me you mistakenly cling to paper valuations when really the only valuation that matters is the money that comes into your account when you sell a business.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_04: Nothing else matters.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_04: So I think yeah the the once you probably it took us a while to kind of get over the fact that not only did we not make money we actually lost a lot of money because we you know we we put basically everything into the business.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yep.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah I think that is that is definitely a challenge but I think what you do learn about yourself and what I've learned about myself is just how it sounds pretty morbid but just how much pain I can take.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_04: And again that's not a not a particularly positive thing to say but it what it means is right now in my life other than like people I love or myself getting sick there's basically nothing I'm scared of nothing.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not afraid to try anything I'm not afraid to move anywhere um I'm not afraid of failing I'm not afraid of you know trying something new all of those things now really are are not a problem at all for me and I realize it's probably not healthy to go through what I went through to get to that point.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_04: But I'm so pleased now that I did because I feel like I've been through again other than personal issues I've been through probably the hardest thing I can go through.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: That is impressive and uh and uh and very inspiring.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: I feel very inspired right now because as a as a young I have a young business and uh again maybe not the same size of the struggles but those things sort of like really resonate.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: And yesterday I was reading a book uh it's called 101 essays to improve your life something like that is by a modern philosopher is fantastic and uh and uh and she was saying that um again pain is what make us sort of like pain is what make us who we are I know that you use it like in a sort of morbid way but actually is what makes develop make us grow you know and then sort of like is it's and again it's part of life we try to hide it but yeah that's part of life.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_04: It's true.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_04: Oh it's absolutely true yeah I I think I think it's really important to go through difficult things whatever they are because you you ultimately will come out with something that you couldn't possibly have got without that thing.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: 100% so yeah so going on uh some more positive notes so now you live in uh LA I do yeah and uh I'm sure that after all of these learnings you are uh enjoying the California weather and time so what are you doing now?
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah so we have a couple of things uh our main business is uh called Silverwood Rose it's a consulting business so this sort of happened accidentally um I don't you know I'm not a natural consultant but I I am somebody who likes helping people solve problems so I suppose that kind of works but we basically when we closed the business the food business um I wasn't ready to do anything basically I was you know I was mentally just really drained um we had a lot of stuff to work through as well like admin and so yeah we we were just not really looking for anything but we we had a few people contact us similar brands some from the industry we're in but some from like broader food and drink brands as well we had built what we built pretty publicly like you know at the time we'd raised some money we'd done things like CrowdCube uh we'd been in you know newspapers and things like that so like people you know people had seen us building what we were building um and yeah we just started getting people asking us questions and it's funny like we never really used to get that before we closed um but I think there's something I don't know maybe there's something about when somebody has uh closed I suppose failed whatever however you want to call it when when you've closed um I think maybe people feel less intimidated to ask questions I don't know that's what I've put it down to but we started getting a lot of inbound requests and it was people saying things like you know so sorry you've closed we're going through something similar how did you navigate the last two years or how did you find cash when you know nobody would give you cash and all of these things like all of these complicated questions and in Rachel's case you know how do we revamp our marketing and our brand um even though we haven't got any money left you know these these kinds of things so we again you'll know from talking to me already that I'm not somebody who particularly enjoys spending time on stuff just for money.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_04: I it doesn't really motivate me that much what motivates me is doing stuff which is meaningful and stuff I feel I can add a lot of value to.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_04: And lots of these questions I felt strongly about you know they were they were things that mattered to me personally obviously because I'd just been through it um but they were things where I was like oh I know how to solve this like I can read I can I've been through this I know the answer.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah I I think a lot of those got me a bit more excited and kind of dragged me out of a a bit of a you know a bit of a dark space to be honest.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_04: You know they they kind of got me thinking positively again and I enjoyed it you know I enjoyed spending time um helping others solve their problems using the skills and experience that I had rather than carrying the weight necessarily on my shoulders.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_04: But then of course naturally we're entrepreneurs so uh I find it hard to separate the two things.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_04: So when I'm working with the client or when I'm working on a challenge I feel like it's my business I I get so uh passionate and so into you know solving the problem that sometimes I have to just pause and just remember you know I I'm not the one who should be making this decision.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_04: I should be helping people to see the options so they can make the decision.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_04: And yeah I think that's something I've learned over the last few years of doing this that um you know I can I shouldn't be the one kind of making the decision.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_04: And I when I start feeling that way is when I start getting a bit nervous because it's not my risk to take.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_04: So yes that's kind of the main thread of what we're doing.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_04: That's what we were doing in London before we moved here and it's what we're continuing to do here.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_04: I've also got back into uh property.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_04: So I started my career in property in London um and now I'm back in that uh world here in in LA and that's uh that's in its early stages but it's again look that's another side hustle that I'm doing on the side of another business.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_04: So it's like that's kind of what I mean.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_04: I'm very um I'm most interested in just doing things that I'm enjoying doing and putting my skills to what I feel is hopefully good use.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_04: And if it doesn't work out in two years time I'm willing to change again.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_04: Like I'm not I'm you're not afraid of that no not at all not at all that is great.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: So how can people reach out to you?
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so best way is to take a look at our website so that's uh www.silverwoodrose.com um you'll find our contact details on there you can get in touch you can find me on LinkedIn um and yeah anywhere you like um I'll answer I'll answer any questions through any any platform.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect and we'll add them on the show notes.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: So uh Neil thank you very much for your time has been fantastic and um I we're gonna see each other soon.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: When the shadow is full of strangers and the loud birds take the stage I keep my