Latest / All Figured Out with Andrea Barr: Figuring Out Work, Life and Parenting / 87. Negotiate like a pro with compensation expert Jillian Climie

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87. Negotiate like a pro with compensation expert Jillian Climie · All Figured Out with Andrea Barr: Figuring Out Work, Life and Parenting

0:00
Welcome back to all figured out. I'm your host, Andrea Barr.
0:03
Thank you so much for joining me again this week.
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So today I got to sit down virtually with Jillian Climie,
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who is the cofounder of the Thoughtful Co Jillians built a
0:14
really impressive career advising and leading teams in
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executive compensation and corporate governance, both as an
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consultant and in house for two major global retailers.
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And most recently, she led the global equity and executive
0:27
compensation programs at Lulu Lemon.
0:29
So she was actually negotiating all of the contracts for the
0:31
executive level, which sounded fascinating.
0:34
But now Jillian has gone out on her own with her cofounder
0:37
Sophie, and they cofounded the Thoughtful Co to help women get
0:40
paid what they deserve and to support companies in building
0:43
more inclusive workplaces. So they work with individuals
0:45
who are in the negotiation compensation process, whether
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they're looking at a new contract or revising existing
0:51
contracts and things like that. But then there are also
0:53
supporting companies to do the same, to ensure certain not to
0:57
do the same, but to ensure that organizations are creating more
1:00
inclusive workplaces. From a compensation perspective,
1:03
it is such such cool work. She's helped clients negotiate
1:07
with companies like Goldman Sachs and Uber, and they've
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achieved an average over 25% increase in compensation, which
1:13
is just absolutely incredible. She's also been recognized as
1:17
the 2024 Women of Influence nominee and the 2023 Peak
1:20
Emerging Leader. Today we're diving into how to
1:23
negotiate compensation as a woman and as specifically as a
1:27
busy working parent, from understanding the equity side of
1:30
compensation to overcoming, you know, just all of the biases
1:33
that can and the confidence issues that can come with being
1:36
a mother in the workplace who might be coming and going from
1:39
parental leaves. So if you've ever felt unsure
1:42
about how to ask for more money, when to ask for more money, or
1:46
just how to talk about money in the workplace, this is the
1:49
episode for you. I could have talked to her for
1:52
five hours and I'm not even in the corporate world anymore, but
1:55
I support women who are, women who are.
1:57
And man, I'm just so fired up about this conversation.
2:00
So I hope you enjoy. You're listening to the All
2:04
Figured Out podcast. I'm your host, Andrea Barr.
2:09
I'm a career coach for parents, mom of two, and a
2:12
self-proclaimed expert at winging it.
2:15
After 10 years in the corporate world, two major career pivots,
2:18
and navigating life with kids, I've learned one thing.
2:21
No parent has it all figured out, and that's OK.
2:25
Here, we're all about growing personally and professionally
2:28
while keeping family time sacred.
2:31
You'll get practical tips, career strategies and musings on
2:34
life, plus guest experts to help us fill in the gaps.
2:37
So grab a coffee or hide in your car for some knee time.
2:40
We're about to figure out this work, life and parenting stuff
2:43
out together. Jillian Climbie, thank you so
2:49
much for joining me on the All Figured Out podcast.
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I'm so excited for this conversation.
2:54
Thank you for having me, I'm excited as well.
2:57
So you were just telling me that we just wrapped up International
3:00
Women's Day and you had a bunch of speaking opportunities.
3:03
And because we are talking about negotiation and compensation for
3:07
women, I knew I could ask you. I said, so do you do paid
3:10
speaking engagements? And I love to answer.
3:12
What did you say to me? Yeah.
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So we only do paid speaking engagements now.
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And I think, you know, as any entrepreneur and your your
3:19
business evolves, you learn more and more about kind of your
3:23
boundaries. And one of our core beliefs that
3:25
the thoughtful Co is to pay women for the value they're
3:29
delivering. So we hold ourselves to the same
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standard. And yeah, it's been great to
3:35
kind of communicate that to organizations as well, and
3:38
people receive it well, so. That's so cool.
3:41
What do you think is? I mean, we're going to dive
3:42
right in. I have a million and a half
3:44
questions for you, including your own story.
3:45
But as we're on this topic, what do you think the what is the
3:49
psychological value that is added to a situation like
3:53
speaking when you are paid and you are, you are advocating
3:57
yourself to be paid for that. Do you?
3:58
But like, is there psychology or research that does kind of
4:02
promote the belief that people receive the information in a in
4:06
a better way? They actually value what you do
4:09
more because there is a price tag on it.
4:13
Good question. I don't think I've been asked
4:14
that before. And it's interesting.
4:16
I've spent, you know, the last decade in compensation and a lot
4:20
of it doing executive compensation where you're
4:23
working with people who are making good money in executive
4:27
levels. And it's interesting because I
4:29
think part of it is really psychological.
4:32
It's not always about the money. It's about feeling valued for
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what you're doing and feeling recognized.
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So especially, you know, when I think about leaders or HR teams
4:41
compensating their employees, like sometimes it is around how
4:44
can we show that recognition and money is an important part of
4:47
that, especially for women, right?
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We face the, the gender pay gap and, and we're a lot of us are
4:54
acutely aware that we might be lower paid than others around
4:57
us. So I think there is a huge
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psychological component. And then in our own work, we've
5:02
also found that as well, right? When you are giving away your
5:05
services for free, people are more likely to discount them,
5:08
right? If you're confident in the value
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that you're adding and back that up with a price, whatever that
5:15
might be, I do find that people will also value you more as
5:18
well. So I think that's kind of a
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twofold answer to that question. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
5:24
It absolutely makes a lot of sense.
5:25
So how on earth did you get, I love asking this question.
5:28
How on earth do you get into compensation?
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Did you grow up thinking I'm going to be, you know, get into
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the big bad corporate world and be an executive compensation
5:36
specialist? Like what was the career
5:37
trajectory for you? I did not grow up thinking that
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I actually ragged my highest no it because my elementary
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graduation yearbook the other day and I wanted to be a lawyer
5:47
living in Hawaii. So I did not quite achieve that,
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but there's still time. So we'll see compensation in,
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you're in Victoria, right? Yeah, yeah.
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So I'm on an island by the ocean, so.
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But yeah, how we got into it is really Business School.
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So I went to Business School and Ontario and there's the
6:07
recruiting cycles that happen within intense business schools.
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And Ivy was the school that I went to, which is recruiting is
6:15
a big focus of it. And there were some of the
6:17
different paths that you could go into, accounting, marketing,
6:20
consulting, investment banking. It's kind of laid out for you.
6:24
And I went in the consulting route and I ended up getting an
6:28
offer at Hughson Consulting, which is the firm that I
6:31
ultimately joined, which specialized in executive
6:34
compensation and corporate governance.
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So working with boards of directors of companies within
6:40
Canada and the US to support them in figuring out how to pay
6:44
their top executive teams, but then also how to communicate
6:49
that information to investors, make sure their structures are
6:52
motivating, but also appropriate within the market context.
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And then getting a little bit broader on board governance.
6:59
So more interesting stuff in there as well.
7:02
So I kind of fell into it. I really liked the mix of HR and
7:07
finance. Like it wasn't just completely
7:09
the numbers, it was also how to motivate, retain, incentivize
7:13
people. So I fell into it, the offer,
7:16
but ended up really enjoying it. Loved the firm that I worked at.
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It was a big job on Bay Street, so really exciting.
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But I also found it was a really supportive culture there, which
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I think is rare with going into Base St. some of these some of
7:32
these big companies. So I got really lucky with kind
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of how I started there. Wow, that is so fascinating.
7:37
And what is so you and your cofounder, Sophie, who is on
7:41
parental leave? When we were chatting, she was
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very pregnant. I believe she was really like
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she was days away from going on her her friend to leave.
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And so it'll be fun to have her on the show as well.
7:52
But you and your cofounder Sophie started the thoughtful Co
7:56
and how that feels like a huge job.
7:59
I'm sure there was twists and turns within there.
8:00
Maybe you worked other places, but how did you decide that?
8:04
Like, you know what, this is something that we need to do and
8:07
we believe that we could be paid for this type of work.
8:12
So I think at the time, my most recent job before the thoughtful
8:16
Co was at Lululemon, where I led the global equity comp and
8:19
executive compensation teams. And it was during COVID, You
8:23
know, I was working a ton, feeling a bit burnt out and just
8:28
thinking broader kind of about what I was doing for the world
8:31
and wanted to do something else. I'd spent my career with an
8:35
executive compensation, which is interesting work, but ultimately
8:38
it is, you know, supporting execs being paid millions and
8:42
millions of dollars. And I just felt the, the pay and
8:44
equity thing was, was getting to me a little bit.
8:47
So Long story short, I ended up quitting my job just to take
8:50
time off. I wanted to explore things
8:52
outside the corporate world. I took guitar lessons.
8:55
I wrote poetry like I just needed a, a reset.
8:59
And I, my now cofounder Sophie and I ended up going for sushi
9:04
dinner. And randomly that day I had
9:07
created a website called the Thoughtful Co and was thinking
9:10
about starting A blog. I had always wondered did I want
9:14
to be a journalist? And that was another avenue I
9:16
was exploring. And we happened to meet for
9:19
dinner that night and decided to do a blog on gender equity
9:22
together. Her coming more from that
9:26
engineering side of things where she is has spent her career off
9:30
the side of her desk building out more equitable and inclusive
9:33
engineering firms and me coming a little bit more from that pay
9:37
equity side of things. So different angles and started
9:40
this blog and somehow that snowballed into the thoughtful.
9:44
So there was a catalyst where I had one former Business School
9:48
colleague reach out to me and ask me to help them negotiate
9:52
their first exact level offer that they got.
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And I said, yeah, sure, I'm not doing anything that sounds great
9:59
and supported them and then realized that was a way that I
10:02
could use my skill set to advocate for the things that I
10:06
was passionate about and help close the gender pay gap.
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So that kind of was a catalyst for me.
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And then we started to build out the different services within
10:14
consulting and coaching over the next year.
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And Sophie joined full time about a year in.
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And so it was not the most like, you know, business plan, well
10:24
thought thing at the start. It kind of just snowballed over
10:27
time. But now we're almost 3 1/2 years
10:29
in, which is really exciting, so.
10:31
Congratulations. I think those are the best
10:33
business stories. We're the ones where you're not
10:35
setting out. And sometimes those those end up
10:37
being cool stories too. But you know, the person who
10:39
sets out to create the business and they're like, I'm going to
10:41
create a business and that's the impetus for creating the
10:44
business. I find that, yeah, little,
10:46
little, little less interesting. So that's really, that's really
10:49
cool. Now you've mentioned a couple
10:50
times the gender pay gap. If we were to explain this to my
10:54
4 year old daughter, and I would love to be able to explain this
10:58
to her, how do you describe what that means?
11:03
Yeah, that's a great question. I think it really is, you know,
11:07
we are paid differently for equal work.
11:10
So for every dollar that Amanda is paid, women are paid about
11:13
$0.84. And depending on, you know, what
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research or analysis or country or location you're looking at,
11:19
that number is a little bit different, but it's around
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$0.84. So I think that's the most
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simple way to kind of look at it.
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And I see it anecdotally throughout my career, which is
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why I started the Thoughtful Co and then also with my clients,
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you know, consistently just being underpaid a little bit.
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And I think what I've found is negotiation can support us in
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helping to close that gap. Ultimately, we wanna be in a
11:45
place where we don't have to negotiate to be paid the same as
11:48
others, right? We are just paid equally by our
11:51
companies, but we're not there yet.
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So that's where we're trying to kind of fill that negotiation
11:55
gap. But ultimately with our work
11:57
with companies, we're hoping to create more equitable HR
12:00
compensation, promotion, hiring structures so we can reduce
12:04
that. And a lot of companies are doing
12:06
great work in that area, but we're definitely not there yet.
12:10
And can you explain exactly what this whole pay band thing is
12:13
that's happening now? I know we have, we have audience
12:15
members who are in different countries.
12:17
There's like Ireland that represents all over the world.
12:20
So if you could kind of we can speak to it from a Canadian
12:22
perspective because that's your experience.
12:24
If you happen to have other, you know, weird knowledge about
12:26
Ireland, sure, throw it in there.
12:27
But we're seeing more and more on LinkedIn job descriptions and
12:32
job postings, this pay band. What is that in an effort to do?
12:36
Is that related to the gender pay gap as well?
12:39
Yeah. So pay transparency is
12:41
definitely coming more into the forefront, which is great.
12:43
So in BC, where we're based for any new job that a company posts
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publicly on LinkedIn, Indeed or wherever, they are supposed to
12:51
include a pay band for that. So a rough salary range of what
12:55
they're expecting for that role. And that's hopefully coming to
12:58
Ontario as well. It's in some states in the US
13:01
too, like California. So we're seeing more and more of
13:04
that come up and really it's just to support candidates and
13:07
understanding, you know, what they can expect in this role and
13:11
to support them in negotiating as well, I believe.
13:14
And it's to create that that pay transparency where, you know,
13:17
some people just happen to have that knowledge and have those
13:20
connections and know what to ask for and other people don't.
13:24
And that's what I've seen so many times.
13:25
It's almost like an information gap of knowing what to ask for
13:30
versus not. So I think it's a really
13:32
important step. The one piece I will say is
13:35
that's all around salary, whereas we know there's so many
13:38
other components that go into a compensation offer like owner
13:41
structure, profit share, equity compensation, sign on awards.
13:46
You know we have a list of about 35 different things you can
13:48
negotiate. So definitely helpful to have
13:51
that and I think so important, but would love to see more and
13:54
more transparency on those other components as well. 35 in my
13:58
head, I'm like, I can probably think of, you know, here I am
14:01
thinking I'm smart because I'm like always negotiate your
14:03
vacation, always negotiate when your probationary period,
14:07
whatever it is. But that's that's insane.
14:08
That's wild. But that's really cool that
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that's happening. I feel like that does provide a
14:12
bit of a, a, I don't know, closes the gap in terms of
14:16
socioeconomic differences. I think as well, because if
14:19
you've, if you grew up wealthy and you have wealthy connections
14:22
and then, you know, there's like, I feel like that can
14:24
really play into people like, you know, feeling like they're
14:27
on top of the world can negotiate for whatever, maybe
14:29
have connections, like you said in that industry and can like
14:32
ask the who's who about, about the pay.
14:35
So I think that makes that makes a lot of sense.
14:36
I have to ask while we're here because this has come up a
14:38
couple times recently with the clients, the career coaching
14:41
clients that I work with where there sending me the job
14:45
description or sorry the job posting and they're like, but
14:48
the salary range is like $80,000 to 160 and you're nodding your
14:54
heads. You're like, I know this is
14:55
coming. Like what the hell?
14:57
What what is that all about that?
14:59
Is that just them? Like it's not like a scapegoat
15:01
or I'm sorry, like they're just like evading the actual like, I
15:05
don't know, legislation and what they're like, oh, whatever.
15:08
Just a huge range in. Yeah, I think that's so great
15:11
that you brought that up. I've seen one.
15:12
I think it was like, I don't know, zero to like a million.
15:15
Like I've seen some really aggressive ones.
15:17
And yeah, that's not in the spirit of the legislation at
15:20
all. It's supposed to be the actual
15:21
range that you have budgeted for.
15:23
So, you know, I think it's always worth it to ask the
15:26
question if you're going through interviews with the company like
15:29
that and just say, hey, I saw the range was 80 to 160.
15:33
What are you thinking for this role approximately?
15:35
I'm definitely worth it to ask. And sometimes you'll get that
15:37
information verbally, even if they're not putting it on on the
15:42
actual job posting, which they should be.
15:45
OK. And then say something like that
15:47
while we're just on this, well, say it's like 80 to 160 and the
15:50
person's coming in is like, yeah, I have like double the
15:52
amount of experience. Like I am overqualified for
15:54
this. I'm going for the 160 because I
15:56
would be the person who should get the upper portion of that
15:59
band. And you go for the 160.
16:00
What it happened in a lot of cases that the company might
16:03
then come back and try to pull back on the other Beavers that
16:06
you'd be negotiating on because they're like, oh, well, we're
16:09
paying you at the top of the ban, so we're going to pull back
16:11
in other areas. Or is that also out of it, like
16:14
not in integrity with the spirit of the legislation?
16:16
Yeah. So I think we always recommend
16:19
when you're going into a negotiation, really prioritize
16:21
what's most important to you. I don't typically see, you know,
16:25
I don't know if I've ever seen a company who has pulled back
16:29
significantly on other components because you're
16:31
increasing your salary. Like usually the salary is the
16:34
biggest piece and that's where you really want to focus the
16:37
energy on. But I have seen, you know, as we
16:40
get to more senior levels, if you're pushing more in salary,
16:43
you might get a little bit less bonus structure, equity
16:46
compensation. So that's where it can come into
16:49
play a little bit. But I think ultimately, if
16:52
you're talking to a company, negotiating your salary and
16:55
thinking about a pay range, I like to think about it, you
16:58
know, if you are new to that role and you need support
17:02
getting into it, getting into achieving all the goals of that
17:07
or you don't have a ton of experience yet, I like to think,
17:10
you know, you're probably at the low end of that range.
17:13
If you're fully functioning and role, you have experience, you
17:16
can do it. You don't need support from
17:18
others on your team. I like to think in the middle
17:20
and then if you're really an expert at that, maybe you'll
17:24
support others on the team who are in that role.
17:26
You're a leader in that space, you're pushing towards that next
17:28
level. I think about the high end.
17:31
So that's helpful when we're framing our negotiations with HR
17:34
especially is how can you show your either fully functioning in
17:38
that role or pushing to that next step and that will help
17:42
just with the conversations around pay ranges.
17:44
That is so I feel like that's such a golden nugget.
17:47
I'm like, wanna like make a mark to like pull that clip.
17:49
That is such a good way of thinking of it because it can be
17:52
daunting. Like you see that $80,000 range,
17:55
but maybe it actually is legit. Maybe they're like, we'd be
17:58
willing to pay someone who doesn't really know how to do
18:00
this job, but we can train you and teach you and help you.
18:03
We'll pay you the 80,000. But like, hey, if like some
18:05
badass experts coming in, we're willing to also invest in that
18:09
type of person. So that's very, very
18:11
interesting. Now I want to take us back a
18:14
bit, negotiating one-on-one. I personally have such an
18:19
affinity for this topic. I think of us telling you and
18:21
Sophie I read books on the topic.
18:23
I actually love negotiating. I find it very fun.
18:26
But I know that I'm maybe not the majority of people in the
18:30
world and who aren't negotiation nerd, so I'd love to learn
18:35
something new as well though. Can we start from the beginning
18:38
like negotiation now I in my like studies are just like like
18:43
chatting with people about different negotiation tactics.
18:46
I've heard that there's different philosophies,
18:48
different principles. There's like a pie and everybody
18:51
has a piece of the pie or there is like the mutually beneficial
18:54
whatever philosophy. Like if you were to kind of like
18:56
give a summary or overview of what negotiation is, what are
19:00
some of the different, you know, philosophies or what's more
19:03
trending right now in the compensation world, I don't even
19:07
know where to start. Take it away.
19:08
Negotiation. Teach us.
19:09
Teach us, Gillian. Yeah, that's a good overall
19:12
question. And I think, you know, when it
19:13
comes to compensation negotiation, one of my
19:16
philosophies is, you know, start the conversation with respect.
19:20
And I think you'll get respect back.
19:21
And I think that's an important one.
19:23
When we're thinking about how we bring up negotiating, and
19:26
especially for women, sometimes how we negotiate our
19:29
compensation is almost as important as what we ask for.
19:32
So that's one I like to keep in mind is, you know, starting that
19:35
conversation with respect and you're more likely to, to get
19:38
respect back. So that can even look like
19:40
giving your leader a heads up that you want to talk about
19:42
compensation next week instead of just surprising them with it.
19:46
Or, you know, preparing and kicking that conversation off,
19:50
outlining why you're excited for that role.
19:53
And then the different points that you bring up and why you're
19:56
asking for XYZ preparation. Giving a heads up, I think
20:00
demonstrates respect for the conversation.
20:03
Another philosophy that I have is not saying too much as well.
20:07
I. I've seen so many times within
20:09
negotiations where someone asked for something, it goes really
20:13
well and then they just keep talking and they almost talk
20:16
themselves out of their negotiation and they'll say, you
20:19
know, I love working here, I'm asking for XYZ, but no problem.
20:22
I know it's a tough time in the economy and budgets are tight
20:25
and, you know, they caveat a lot.
20:27
So I think I work a lot with my clients on saying your piece and
20:31
stop talking. It demonstrates confidence.
20:34
It's a great tactic for women because it's not aggressive,
20:37
right? You're literally not saying
20:38
anything and it lets the person on the other side of the table
20:41
respond to you. So those are kind of two of my
20:45
my big philosophies. I think with the compensation
20:47
negotiation, which is a unique negotiation, right?
20:50
It's a bit more emotional than others when you're negotiating
20:53
for a company or as part of your role within sales or whatever it
20:58
might be. So yeah, those would be two, two
21:02
ones that come to mind for me. Those are awesome.
21:05
I tend to do a little bit of coaching on the negotiation
21:07
front. People are often who come to me,
21:09
they're really good at interviews, You know, they're
21:11
they're stars already, but it comes to the negotiation and
21:14
there's like, you know, fear or self worth things that come up.
21:18
And, and I think that's a really is a really important point
21:21
about not talking yourself out of it and being OK with that
21:24
pause like that is so it's so critical.
21:27
And, and I think I really love what you said about the, the
21:31
respect for the conversation. And I always talk also talk
21:34
about who is in front of you when you're doing your research
21:36
and when you're really thinking about preparing for that
21:39
conversation. It shouldn't be, Oh, I know my
21:41
manager like we've got a great relationship.
21:43
I'm just going to wing it, go into the conversation.
21:46
But really thinking like if you were to think about your
21:48
personality profile, like if you were doing a personality
21:50
assessment, thinking about who they are, how they like to
21:53
receive information, how they like to think through things.
21:56
I think that's a great point about really giving them the
21:58
opportunity to have a think, maybe do a bit of their own due
22:02
diligence, maybe have a bit of a chat, like a more casual chat,
22:05
maybe with their upper management just to see and start
22:07
to suss out things. Because sure, I'm somebody that
22:10
he came to me and just threw something at me.
22:12
I I don't mind that at all. Like I'm a very fly by the seat
22:15
of my pants kind of person, but I definitely worked with leaders
22:18
who were complete opposite and they want to have their facts.
22:20
They want to think things through.
22:22
They really don't like to be surprised.
22:24
So I think that's that's such an incredible, such an incredible
22:29
advice and I think it's really important.
22:30
So now, Oh my gosh, I'm, I'm just thinking of like all the
22:39
times that I have been in the corporate world or the clients
22:42
that I work with, they're in the corporate world and you're
22:45
sitting there midway through a review cycle.
22:48
You're like a like my job portfolio has just an increase.
22:53
Two people, my team have left. And I know that I'm doing so
22:56
much more work. I have so much more
22:58
responsibility. And now I'm starting to feel
23:00
that like feeling of animosity. And I really want to have a
23:04
discussion like having those wanting to talk about
23:07
compensation and you said giving a heads up.
23:09
What are some ways that you see work really well when it's like
23:11
really out of the blue compensation discussions?
23:15
Yeah. And I think we've probably all
23:17
been there, you know, like and I think it's happening a lot right
23:20
now with people budgets are tight and there's layoffs and
23:25
the people who were left in companies are having to do like
23:27
3 people's jobs. And I'm seeing that a lot with
23:30
our clients for sure of a bit of frustration around, OK, I'm semi
23:33
getting a promotion here has not been acknowledged and I'm not
23:36
getting a pay increase either. So I think for those times, it's
23:40
really great to bring up that conversation when you're
23:43
starting to feel that way. One thing I see with some of my
23:46
clients, since they've waited months or maybe even years
23:49
before talking about compensation, and by the time
23:52
they bring it up, they're really frustrated.
23:54
You know, they're almost ready to leave tomorrow if they don't
23:57
get an increase. And typically that's not the
23:59
best way to enter a negotiation, right?
24:01
Especially if you're at a bigger company.
24:04
There's certain budget periods, and if you miss one of those
24:06
periods, it might not come up again for six months.
24:09
So I always say, you know, start that conversation earlier if
24:12
possible and kick it off with your leader getting to those
24:15
budget cycles, know when they are.
24:17
And that way it kind of reduces the frustration of, you know, if
24:22
you bring something up and you can't get a yes right away.
24:25
And I also would base it around the value that you're adding and
24:29
bringing in tangible metrics. And I think one point that you
24:32
brought up to was increase in role scope and responsibilities.
24:36
I love talking about that from HR and compensation perspective.
24:40
As you know, that's like right away.
24:42
If there is a significant increase in role scope, that
24:45
should be a justification for a little bit of an increase in,
24:48
OK. So really honing in on what your
24:51
key points are and tying it to metrics if possible.
24:55
Talking about your performance, the impact that you have, how
24:58
are you impacting revenue, expense management, time
25:02
savings, growth, number of customers, you know, whatever
25:05
those pieces are for you. And then how can you concretely
25:08
show that your role scope is increased as well?
25:10
So when you're negotiating internally especially, I find
25:14
kind of bringing around those pieces can be really powerful.
25:18
Do you have tips for people who have made maybe roles that feel
25:22
like more of their over cost centre versus like a direct tie
25:25
to revenue for the company? For instance, I'll use myself as
25:28
an example. I used to work in learning and
25:29
development and we are LED is notoriously like always getting
25:34
cut because they're like, OK, something's gotta give.
25:37
This is a cost centre. Boom.
25:38
They try to cut, you know, the LND members and then sometimes,
25:44
you know, it's really hard to prove the metrics of what you're
25:47
doing. For instance, the number of
25:49
learning and development programs I was creating, it's
25:52
that wasn't really a metric that felt like it was, I don't know
25:55
it, it would, I would have had a hard time walking in and being
25:58
like, well, I've created, you know, 12 different programs.
25:59
That feels kind of soft because it's like, well, what does that
26:02
even mean? That's not really tied to the
26:04
revenue. How do you, you know, how do you
26:07
help people to navigate that when they're feeling a little
26:10
weird about like what levers to really pull on in that
26:13
negotiation? Yeah, I think that's a great
26:16
question. And like right away my mind goes
26:19
to retention, engagement, you know some of those more HR
26:22
metrics which I think we do have to fall on and, and sometimes
26:25
it's hard to demonstrate those directly if your company is not
26:28
tracking those types of things. But definitely bringing that
26:31
into play. The programs that I'm creating
26:34
are helping us retain our top talent.
26:36
And you can look up metrics online, right?
26:40
Turnovers can be 40 to 200% of an employee salary.
26:43
So that really is saving a lot of costs.
26:46
But I also like to think I was going through an example with a
26:51
client that other day of she was really detail oriented and that
26:54
was one of her strengths she wanted to bring up.
26:57
And we were talking through what some metric we can tie to that.
27:00
And she found that she was really detail oriented, so she
27:04
could send her work directly to senior leaders without her
27:07
managers review. And that saves her manager about
27:10
3 hours of time per week and enables her to launch 2 new
27:14
projects for the company. So even kind of unassuming
27:18
things like being detail oriented or time savings
27:21
metrics, things like that, that really matter to that person
27:24
that you're discussing with. As you mentioned, like that's so
27:27
important for your leader to hear.
27:29
You're saving your leader 3 hours of time per week, right?
27:32
Everyone wants wants time. It's the most important
27:35
currency. So I think there's oftentimes
27:37
smaller metrics that you can bring in there.
27:39
And then I also find feedback can be really helpful.
27:42
So if you got feedback from the CEO on X project, bringing that
27:46
in as an impact metric or feedback from a client or past
27:50
customer or things like that. So that helps to demonstrate the
27:54
impact, the value of your contributions as well.
27:58
Excellent. Those are so good.
28:00
I wish I had a pen and paper right now.
28:02
I'm not even in the corporate world, but I'm like, oh, this is
28:04
so good. I have to relisten.
28:06
OK, let's go to that. The going back to I'm so hot on
28:10
this topic of like, who is the person in front of you that
28:12
you're negotiating with and how important it is to recognize
28:15
that. And one thing because it's my
28:17
show, I can go off for a second here because it's like this
28:20
might be kind of an unpopular opinion.
28:23
There's nothing I detest more. OK, that's really dramatic.
28:27
But really, I really, really, really do not think it's a great
28:31
strategy. And it always coach people kind
28:33
of out of this. And we find a better solution
28:35
for when someone says in a negotiation.
28:38
It kind of had, you know, similar situations when I was a
28:40
manager, You know, I really want this razor, this promotion.
28:43
And then they list personal reasons I'm saving to buy a
28:48
house. Vancouver is really expensive,
28:52
you know, now that I work with parents, you know, I have 3 kids
28:56
like and it's so with the greatest amount of empathy that
29:00
I can like I have in my body, I can say that that is from my
29:04
perspective. And I'm really curious to hear
29:06
your perspective. That is like one of the worst
29:08
negotiating tactics because as much as that person might have
29:12
empathy for you, it doesn't matter.
29:15
That has nothing to do with you in your work and the value that
29:18
you bring to the organization of which it is an energy exchange.
29:20
If you provide something to the organization, they provide money
29:23
back and ah, it's just it's heartbreaking when people that's
29:28
like the only thing that they can think of for why they
29:31
deserve more money or they deserve a raise is because of
29:34
those personal factors. What is your opinion on that
29:36
that that matter? They agree it's not relevant.
29:41
And as a compensation person, like I was trained to not take
29:44
that into account because yes, I could be hearing that from this
29:49
certain person, but I don't know what another person's going
29:52
through because they're not sharing that with me.
29:53
So it really is inequitable. Like I am not supposed to take
29:57
that into account. And what I've see so often
30:02
happen in negotiations is people focus on external factors.
30:05
So yeah, they Vancouver is really expensive or inflation,
30:10
that's a big one we're seeing right now.
30:12
Inflation is really impact me, impacting me.
30:15
I need a salary increase. But inflation is impacting
30:19
everyone on your team, in the company, in the country.
30:22
So you're negotiating for everyone.
30:23
It's not specific to you. So you really need to focus on
30:27
you and the value that you add to that organization and try to
30:30
remove those external factors. Even economic landscape, right?
30:34
Like that's another one. It's a really tough economic
30:37
landscape. Things are expensive, whatever
30:39
it might be that that's not relevant for that conversation.
30:43
So I completely agree. And, and it is tough sometimes
30:46
when there are real factors that are impacting so many of us
30:50
right now, right? It is a really tough economy
30:52
right now, but trying to focus it on the value that you add at
30:56
work, I think is is so much more powerful because yeah, HR and
31:01
compensation, your leaders are not supposed to take personal
31:04
factors into account. What is your belief on
31:09
compensating based on performance?
31:11
And I don't know if this is a belief or if this is just like
31:14
one-on-one that you would learn as a conversation specialist.
31:17
But you know, we've all also had those situations where you're on
31:20
a team, you're kind of at the same level, same role, and
31:23
you're not supposed to. But you chat with the person on
31:25
your team and kind of find out what they're making.
31:27
And you're like, Oh my God, I am 100 times better than them.
31:30
Maybe they're even making more than you and you're pissed and
31:33
maybe it's a man on your team. How would you advise somebody to
31:38
negotiate in that situation when you're like, I'm and not because
31:42
not that you would go in and say like I'm so much better than
31:44
this person, but you actually figure out that you are not
31:47
being paid, you know, for, for your performance.
31:50
What? What would you say there?
31:52
Yeah. And I think I caution people
31:55
from focusing too much or not having the whole rationale based
31:58
on that because again, from kind of my brain, there can be a lot
32:03
of reasons why people are paid differently in a similar role.
32:06
So experience, education, time and role, role scope,
32:12
responsibilities, impact performance.
32:15
Like there's so many pieces that that go into play when they join
32:18
the company. What was the comp philosophy at
32:20
that time? So there can be rationale.
32:22
It's not always correct, but it's an easy one where a leader
32:26
can say, oh, This is why, right? This person has this training or
32:29
this skill set or they hold this portfolio or whatever it might
32:33
be. So it's an easy one to kind of
32:34
shut down almost. Again, I would encourage to go
32:38
into that meeting and say, Hey, I'm performing at X level.
32:41
This is what I've contributed XYZ impact in this area and I
32:46
LED us to this growth. And I do know that others on the
32:50
team are making more than me. So having that as that last
32:54
piece, but not having it as the only rationale because again,
32:58
focusing on your performance is so much more positive.
33:01
And it's facts, right? Like if you bring in core facts
33:04
of what you're bringing to a company that's an exchange for
33:08
the, the money that you're asking for, it sets up that
33:10
conversation so well. So I think great to you know
33:13
have as as a Third Point maybe in that discussion, but it
33:16
wouldn't have the whole focus around that because I have seen
33:19
that kind of be turned down for various reasons.
33:23
That makes sense. Is it?
33:25
I've had in most of my contracts, when I think back on
33:28
my employment contracts, most of the time it does have a
33:30
stipulation in there saying you were not allowed to discuss your
33:34
compensation and there you could be punished for whatever.
33:37
I don't even know how they would punish you, but they gotta make
33:40
it seem like you could be fired for even discussing your
33:42
compensation. Is that commonplace?
33:44
Do you think that that's a? Is that a real thing?
33:48
That's not common. I still see it for sure and
33:51
offers and a lot of times that's actually not legal.
33:54
So I would definitely, you know, just have a quick Google of that
33:57
as well just to make sure if it and it could be legal in your
34:00
area. I'm not a lawyer or caveat that,
34:03
but definitely with pay transparency in BC and things
34:06
like that, you cannot be penalizing people for that.
34:08
So great 1. You know, just to check if you
34:11
see that in your contract, you know, always good to do a Google
34:14
on that. And I, yeah, I don't love seeing
34:17
that in contracts because ultimately, you know, people are
34:19
gonna share what they're going to share.
34:21
And that has to be part of your strategy as in our HR team to
34:24
know that people do talk about their pay.
34:27
So yeah, don't, I don't love to see that in contracts.
34:31
OK, I'm very surprised. I'm gonna be honest.
34:32
I'm very surprised. I really did think that this was
34:35
a very normal thing. Maybe I was just not.
34:37
I'm just a pushover and like such a rule follower in some
34:40
sometimes I'm a rule follower. And that I was such a rule
34:43
follower. I was so scared or like I would
34:46
disclose it to like one person and it was like, Oh my God, what
34:49
if they found out like such a big thing?
34:51
But that's awesome. I like that.
34:52
That's becoming hopefully less of a thing.
34:58
Wow. OK, so I don't know if this
35:01
isn't going to be rapid fire because I want, you know,
35:03
lengthy great answers from you, but let's do let's do some true
35:08
or false. I just have so many questions.
35:10
OK, I've never done this on a podcast.
35:12
OK. I'm making this up as we go
35:14
because I just have a million and a half questions I want to
35:17
ask you. Brewer Falls It's common for a
35:22
company to rescind an offer in a compensation negotiation because
35:28
it's not going well. Boss, I've seen that very, very
35:32
few times in my career. I think that's everyone's worst
35:34
case scenario. It's very unlikely to happen.
35:37
I definitely see that as a red flag for the organization.
35:40
If it's happening often, the worst case is a no and you can
35:44
move on from a no. You can still sign a contract.
35:47
So I definitely think that's a fear that kind of stops a lot of
35:50
people, but it's so rare to happen.
35:53
So I would push against that fear.
35:56
Oh my gosh. OK, True or false, companies are
35:59
just trying to. Our companies are always going
36:02
to offer you like $10,000 less in salary than what they're
36:07
actually willing to like baseline pay you.
36:10
I would say false. Some companies do have a comp
36:13
philosophy to offer what they want to pay and they won't
36:17
negotiate or will negotiate very little.
36:20
So some companies will always negotiate or always offer a
36:23
little bit lower. But it totally depends on the
36:26
compensation philosophy. So you can't really.
36:28
I wouldn't say that as a blanket statement.
36:31
So Duke, most companies, I actually didn't know that.
36:33
Do most companies have like a guidelines or compensation
36:37
philosophy that's like everybody's trained on and it's
36:39
written down and like that's like a real obviously the kind
36:42
of secretive thing that they have in their back pocket?
36:45
Yeah. So definitely I would say most
36:48
companies should. And every company has a unique
36:51
strategy hopefully. And then within that they have a
36:54
compensation philosophy which guides how they pay their people
36:57
and kind of links to that strategy.
36:59
So especially on an executive compensation level, when it's
37:02
big dollars and you know, there needs to be a lot of thought
37:06
behind it because it's quite, quite a lot of money, there
37:09
usually is a strategy around pay for performance like you brought
37:13
up earlier, you know, are we a company who really incentivizes
37:16
and motivates towards high performance?
37:18
And from that perspective, I think about bonus structure,
37:21
equity compensation, or are we little bit less risky and we pay
37:26
more in salary? So there's a lot of different
37:29
things that can go into a compensation philosophy.
37:31
And as someone who has worked in a comp team, then you can kind
37:35
of take that and use it when you're creating programs and
37:38
structures. And one thing I'd like to share
37:40
about compensation philosophies as well as they're really, you
37:45
know, each company might pay the same role differently.
37:48
So say I'm working at Nike, Nike might prioritize a shoe designer
37:54
because that's essential to their business strategy, whereas
38:00
Louis Vuitton, I don't know why that came to me.
38:02
Louis Vuitton might not prioritize a shoe designer.
38:06
They might prioritize sales and they might pay a premium for
38:09
that role. So it's like the same role, the
38:12
same sales role at Nike or Louis Vuitton, but Louis Vuitton is
38:15
paying a premium. So I always like to share that
38:18
because sometimes there's an over focus on market data, where
38:22
market data can be helpful in figuring out what we want to ask
38:25
for. But ultimately every company
38:27
pays their people differently. So I don't like to over focus on
38:31
market data as well. That is so OK, we can stop the
38:35
Q&A for a SEC because this is such a good conversation.
38:37
And something I was going to ask you about was, you know, in
38:40
addition to really knowing what your value is, what you bring to
38:43
the table, how you help the company, a big one that we
38:46
always hear is go into your research, find out like look on
38:49
Glassdoor in these ridiculous places that actually give you no
38:52
help whatsoever. Maybe Chachi Pitino, it's been
38:55
awhile, but I actually haven't tried that.
38:57
But yeah, that's, that's interesting that you say that
39:00
you're kind of saying to like deprioritize the market data
39:03
little bit like don't put as much in that.
39:06
I think some people will go to a negotiation and that's mainly
39:08
what they've prepped is the market data.
39:11
And what I'm hearing from you is that that is it could be a bit
39:15
of a factor. It's a factor, but it's not the
39:18
factor. And I never, I actually didn't
39:20
know that. I didn't realize that two
39:21
companies would have would actually that kind of makes
39:24
sense. Like I used to work at Aritzia,
39:25
you know, you did too. And there was, of course, there
39:29
was going to be positions within Aritzia that would be paid very,
39:33
very differently from when I was in advertising.
39:35
A copywriter at Aritzia and a copywriter, like a senior
39:38
copywriter when I was at an ad agency probably compensated
39:41
quite differently because of the value.
39:43
Like a copywriter and an ad agency is like gold.
39:45
Like you can't do anything without like really great
39:49
copywriters at Aritzia. They had great copywriters.
39:52
But like, would it have been that same emphasis?
39:55
Maybe not. So that's a really good point.
39:59
Totally. And I think, you know, it's
40:00
helpful to have market data if possible, like hard to find good
40:04
market data for sure to help you figure out what you wanna ask
40:06
for. But yeah, I don't think it
40:08
should be the only factor because again, I know I keep
40:11
going back to this point, but it's around your performance and
40:14
your impact in that role too. So I think it's great.
40:17
You know, and there are, there's great sources on LinkedIn now
40:20
with pay transparency. Some industries have good
40:22
industry surveys, some associations too.
40:25
And we have the thoughtful code. That's kind of a gap we're
40:28
trying to fill. We've worked with hundreds of
40:30
women. Across North America and the UK
40:32
now, So we have a really robust market database to support our
40:35
clients and figuring out what they want to ask for on all the
40:39
components of compensation, not just salary.
40:41
But ultimately it is about you and the value that you add and
40:45
how that organization prioritizes your role.
40:47
So yeah, not over focusing on just that.
40:51
OK. Well, my question was going to
40:52
be where can somebody go? But it just sounds like they
40:54
should go to the thoughtful Co and work with you guys to ensure
40:58
that they're, they're kind of on the mark.
41:00
OK, my last true or false would be true or false.
41:05
The best negotiation of the most effective negotiation, and it's
41:09
one in which you're willing to walk away.
41:15
This is a tough one. I mean, I, I think I would say
41:18
yes, but I know that's not within my work within
41:22
compensation negotiation. I know that's not a real
41:25
scenario for a lot of people, especially in a tough job
41:28
market. So I think yes, if you are
41:30
willing to walk away and you have that confidence going in,
41:34
yes, it's probably going to go great.
41:36
But I also think you can negotiate really well when you
41:39
know you are going to sign that offer and you can still have
41:42
that confidence in it, still go really well.
41:44
So I'll caveat that one a little bit.
41:47
OK, OK, one is much gears now to talk a bit more about the
41:52
parenting space. This is a podcast predominantly
41:54
for parents, predominantly women, but hello to the 20 to
41:57
25% of men who listen. You can get something out of
42:01
this too, of course. But when a woman is coming,
42:04
coming in and out of the workforce due to a parental
42:07
leave, which is beautiful and a beautiful time, and it is so
42:09
that we can populate the earth. And they're lacking a bit of
42:13
confidence. If they're like, I've got say a
42:16
three to five year series of gaps or, you know, like combined
42:20
gap in my resume in which I'm coming and going say from the
42:23
same company or another company and they feel like they're just
42:28
not sure how and if they can negotiate.
42:30
So let's I'll break it down smaller.
42:32
Say it's a woman who's coming back from a parental leave,
42:35
takes, you know, 12 to 18 months, comes back, has missed
42:39
12 to 18 months of work. Feels like they were kind of
42:42
moving towards getting that promotion or maybe could have
42:47
been compensated. But it's not, you know, it's,
42:50
it's not like that glaring situation.
42:52
The person's been waiting for two years for a raise.
42:54
And that's that's kind of an easier discussion.
42:56
It's kind of like borderline what I know it's a tricky one,
43:00
but what are what advice would you have to her when she feels
43:04
like, but I haven't been there for 12 to 18 months.
43:07
Who am I to negotiate? Yeah, that's such a good
43:10
question. And I think, you know, when it
43:12
comes to parental leave in general, I always say try to
43:16
start their communication with your leader who or HR, whoever
43:19
it is that you chat with about your compensation early.
43:22
So you have a really good understanding of what's
43:24
happening before you go on leave if possible.
43:28
So are you getting that annual compensation increase while
43:30
you're on leave? Like even if it's just
43:33
inflation, are you getting your bonus payout?
43:35
How is, how is performance determined for your bonus
43:37
payout, things like that? So I think a lot of people go on
43:40
leave and aren't really sure and then they maybe just miss
43:44
cycles. But pushing for those things
43:46
earlier can be helpful. So you're not missing out.
43:48
Like that's what I hate to hear when someone goes on leave,
43:52
whatever gender and misses that annual compensation increase
43:56
because that starts to set you back, right?
43:58
That's where we see that motherhood penalty.
44:01
So I really believe in inflationary salary increases at
44:04
the minimum while you're on leave.
44:06
Of course, not all companies are there yet, but I think great to
44:10
get that understanding. And then when you're coming
44:13
back, I think part of it is as I'm sure you work with so many
44:17
incredible parents, the mental side of it of knowing your value
44:21
and just because you've been on leave does not mean your value
44:24
has diminished. It's probably increased, right?
44:26
You've learned all these incredible new skills that you
44:29
can bring to the workplace. And I also like to remind so
44:33
many people go out and leave us for many different reasons.
44:36
They go on sabbaticals with the company and go to a different
44:40
operating unit and learn different things maybe in Asia
44:42
and then bring that back. Like there's so many changes
44:46
that happen in the workplace and it can add value in so many
44:49
ways. So I think a lot of it is that
44:53
that kind of confidence piece going back into it and then know
44:56
that negotiation is so normal as well.
44:59
I always like to share this. Sometimes we feel like we're the
45:02
only ones bringing up money and talking about it, but people
45:05
negotiate all the time. It's absolutely worth it to talk
45:08
about it. When you come back, start that
45:10
discussion, right? You want to start off on a good
45:12
foot. You don't want to feel
45:13
frustrated going back into role when you've missed multiple
45:17
increases and you're feeling behind where you were before.
45:22
So I think it's great to, are you OK to talk about it, right.
45:25
That's what your leader is there for.
45:27
And if you're able to start those conversations earlier, so
45:30
they're expecting it when you come back as well, I think that
45:33
can be helpful just to set you up for success so you don't have
45:37
to kind of build up all that confidence when you come back.
45:40
It's already in the calendar of hey, we're talking about my
45:42
role, responsibilities, compensation, etc.
45:45
It's a really good point and I like the doing it early.
45:48
I think as somebody who has gone on 2 parental leaves, one
45:51
working for a corporation, one working for myself, negotiating
45:55
with myself was probably harder. Meaner.
46:01
I would say I'm the worst boss I've ever had.
46:05
Not very nice anyways, I, I think that's really great
46:09
because I think that there's definitely a pressure cooker
46:11
that builds within you and I hear this from a lot of moms as
46:13
well where you have this expectation in your mind of
46:16
what's going to happen, whether you're like, oh, I'm going to
46:19
get nothing and so you come back and you don't instigate that
46:21
discussion or you're like, I'm going to get my $20,000 raise
46:25
this year and then you come back and nothing happens and then
46:28
you're even more disgruntled because there wasn't that open
46:30
line of communication about that.
46:31
I think that's a really, that's really, really, really good
46:33
advice. And I think that this is a
46:35
really minute detail, but for those who are listening, who are
46:38
going to be on a leave while the remuneration cycle is coming up
46:43
and say it's going to be happening, you know, when you're
46:46
giving birth or just after and you're really not in the
46:49
headspace to want to even be thinking about that.
46:52
I think it's really important to ensure that you know what's
46:54
going to be happening, what the plan of attack is.
46:57
Are you willing to be contacted? I don't know.
46:59
You know, there's some organizations that are pretty
47:01
fluid like that where, you know, you have those discussions
47:03
around contact, no contact. Do you want to be, do you want
47:06
to go through the process with them?
47:08
Like while you're on leave, if you're, you know, maybe you know
47:10
that you'll be fine or hey, touch base with me and maybe we
47:14
can have a chat. But if I'm not in the headspace,
47:15
we talked about this, can we do it when I'm back?
47:17
Like there's a lot of, I think a lot of things to really think
47:20
about and that preparation could the more you can prepare, but
47:24
you know, before you bring a child into the world, the more
47:26
you can just like take off of your future mental state, the
47:29
better 100%. So that's very, very good
47:33
advice. Now, you mentioned the
47:34
inflationary raise and that's also a question I wanted to ask
47:37
you. Is that customary?
47:39
Like is an does an employee, should they feel kind of
47:42
without, you know, ego or whatever, but like, should they
47:46
feel like they deserve to have at least an inflationary raise
47:49
every single year? Yeah.
47:52
I, I, I always caution in being too general because companies
47:56
have such different strategies. But definitely the majority do
48:00
have an inflationary increase every year.
48:02
And really the rationale behind that is you're starting to make
48:05
less money if you're not keeping up with inflation.
48:08
So most companies will have kind of an inflation, whether that's
48:13
2%, whatever it might be. And then usually there's a
48:16
little bit of performance buffer that they have in there as well,
48:19
where a leader can give like a little bit hard to certain
48:22
employees and a little bit less. That being said, there's some
48:25
organizations that don't do that.
48:27
So I, I do want to caution as well, but I think especially if
48:30
you're at a bigger organization, I would expect at least a small
48:34
inflationary increase each year. What are the differences between
48:37
the private and the public sector when it comes to
48:40
compensation and the cycles and things like pay for performance,
48:46
inflation, things like that? What do you what do you notice?
48:50
This sector typically is a little bit more lower risk.
48:55
So private sector, it's usually more pay for performance.
48:58
You're using bonus, profit, equity, performance based
49:01
compensation increases to motivate employees towards
49:04
certain things. Whereas public sector typically
49:07
is a little bit more static. So it's more structured.
49:10
You know, each year based on how many years you've been in the
49:13
role, you get X percent increase and you know there's typically
49:18
less use of performance based elements of pay.
49:21
So in ways it can allow for more equity because there's more
49:25
structure in it, but there's also less room for if you are
49:29
really high performer to get those big payouts.
49:32
Again, that's a generalization. There's some public sector that
49:35
do have more performance based structures.
49:37
But in general, that's what I would say kind of the the
49:40
differences. OK, OK.
49:42
That makes a lot of sense. I get that and that I think
49:45
that's what I would, that's what I would have thought as well.
49:48
Now let's go into with the time that we have left, I'm very
49:51
excited to go into what are the different levers that we can
49:54
pull out when we're negotiating. Let's talk about it.
49:56
The perspective of you're signing a brand new contract
49:59
with a new organization, new role, everything like that.
50:01
You're leaving a really cushy job.
50:03
You're leaving like a salary that you enjoy.
50:06
You've got four weeks vacation and then you get that new
50:09
contract. It's a little boost in salary,
50:11
but they're trying to get you down to two weeks of vacation.
50:14
The benefits like not as many massages.
50:15
You know, there's like some of like those types of things and
50:18
the person's really grappling. They're like, that's a bit more
50:21
money, but then the total reward, like the total
50:23
compensation package is maybe not as great.
50:25
Like, how can that person, what can they be pulling on in terms
50:28
of the leaders? Yeah.
50:30
So it would say, you know, the biggest one, of course, is
50:32
salary. We want to try to push on that
50:34
because that's enduring. It should be increasing every
50:36
year. But then I love to think about
50:39
bonus structure, you know, how can you push on that?
50:41
That can be a huge amount of money every year depending on
50:43
your role. And can you get into equity
50:46
compensation too? So things like stock options,
50:49
share ownership, performance, share units, depending on what
50:52
industry you're in and what level you're at, that is where I
50:56
see the majority of the wealth being made if companies do well.
50:58
So negotiating early into those types of components can be so,
51:03
so lucrative. I'm such an advocate for more
51:06
women negotiating equity. We have free explainers on our
51:09
website for stock options, PSU and RSU if you are interested
51:13
and want to learn more. And then I would also say sign
51:16
on awards is a big piece too if you are feeling like part of
51:20
your package is a little bit lower in certain areas.
51:23
I recommend for 98% of my clients negotiate a sign on.
51:28
It can be such a quick, simple ask and yes, it's not as great
51:32
as getting a salary increase because that's enduring, but it
51:36
really can help fill the gaps for some certain pieces.
51:39
And then lots of other components that come up.
51:42
As I mentioned, we have that big list from allowances, like get
51:45
creative on allowances, from parking allowances, coaching,
51:49
like maybe you're going into your first exec level role, you
51:52
want to coach for the first four months to set you up for
51:54
success. Fitness Wellness allowances are
51:57
coming up, coverage of training certifications, employee share
52:01
purchase programs, parental leave structures can be helpful
52:04
to negotiate as well. So you know, lots of different
52:08
pieces in there moving allowances that you can think
52:11
about to. Not necessarily, it doesn't make
52:15
the same difference as that salary increase, but definitely
52:17
can increase your enjoyment at work and support you in your
52:20
career. Who those are fun.
52:24
I love, love the word allowance. I mean, who doesn't, who doesn't
52:27
have like fire in their belly when they hear a loud and they
52:30
think of like their young self getting allowance for candy or I
52:32
don't even know if I actually had an allowance, but like I
52:36
like that and I didn't I really didn't think about half of that
52:39
stuff. So I like that.
52:41
What about a clothing allowance? Dry clean allowance?
52:44
Mail allowance? Yeah, clothing for sure.
52:47
I see in retailers. I don't see, I don't think I've
52:50
ever seen a nail allowance, but I would.
52:54
It's important, right? I'm thinking it's 100%.
52:58
OK, you guys are coming back on. We'll bring Sophie.
53:01
Maybe she can bring her maybe. Thanks again, Jillian, for
53:03
coming on. Now, where can everybody find
53:05
you? I feel like they want that list.
53:07
They want the list of the the compensation things that they
53:10
can negotiate on. Yeah, check out our website
53:13
itsthethoughtfulcode.net or you can also follow us on
53:17
linkedinthethoughtful.co.orinstagram@thethoughtful.co. And always open to adding me on
53:23
LinkedIn as well. I'd love to chat about
53:25
compensation, you know. Please feel free to reach out.
53:29
Yes, reach out, give her a thanks for this episode and
53:32
definitely get her help the next time you're looking to to
53:35
negotiate a contract. So thank you so much.
53:37
Again, thank you so much for listening.
53:42
And since you made it this far, please share this episode with a
53:45
fellow parent who you love, respect, and want to support.
53:49
And while you're at it, hit me up on Instagram at All Figured
53:52
Out. Andrea, I would love to meet you
53:54
and hear what you are trying to figure out these days.