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Are Calories Still Relevant? · HER

0:07
Pam Peeke, MD: Hi, I am Dr.
0:08
Pam Peak, and This is episode number 553 of the Bold And
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the Brave, her podcast Now.
0:19
Today I'm joined by an expert in all things nutrition and history,
0:25
because we are gonna be asking the critical question, are calories even
0:32
still relevant anymore or are they like, so last year we don't know.
0:39
What got me onto this wild and crazy thing was reading some of the
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beautiful quotes from our guest.
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And That is, Dr.
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Helen vi she is a historian of American food in the 19th and 20th centuries.
1:00
That's wild.
1:01
An associate professor of history at Michigan State University and she
1:06
just published another book, it's called Picky, how American Children
1:13
Became the Fussiest Eaters in History.
1:16
Little Pains in the Well anyway, so we kind of let it go with that.
1:21
she is absolutely.
1:23
a scholar in this subject, which is why I love this so much.
1:28
And she's been writing on food history, for a variety of academic journals.
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And of course she's been in the New York Times, the Atlantic, Washington
1:37
Post, and all over the place.
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Helen, welcome aboard.
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Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: Thank you so much.
1:42
I'm so excited to be here.
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Pam Peeke, MD: Alright, so You know what to say.
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If you don't know history, you're condemned to repeat it.
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So we're gonna figure this out one way or the other.
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So I'm just like throwing along and doing my thing.
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And then I read this article in the New York Times, is America Breaking Up?
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Oh, with the calorie?
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with the, subheading long held up as the big benchmark of nutrition, the calorie
2:12
is losing its clout in the age of GLP ones and a sharper focus on nutrients.
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So, It starts out with this whole thing about, you know.
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Hundred calorie packs that are out there And the history of Weight Watchers and,
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ro they filed for bankruptcy in May.
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things not going well.
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And then all of a sudden here we have your beautiful quote that maybe say.
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I gotta talk to her.
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Okay.
2:44
And that was the stranglehold that calories have had on
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our culture is loosening.
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They are just not a great way for most people to relate to.
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Eating and counting them is a fundamentally unsustainable way
3:05
for people to have a healthy.
3:07
Or joyful relationship with food.
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Whoa.
3:13
Okay, so where are we going with this one?
3:16
Helen?
3:16
We're gonna take a step back.
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Tell us the history of this calorie thing.
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Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: Okay, so I first did my PhD, almost 20
3:26
years ago at Yale University.
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And at the time, studying food history was kind of a weird thing.
3:32
I got a lot of, you know, side
3:34
Pam Peeke, MD: didn't have a lot of friends at the time.
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Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: It was, it was just, it was just seen
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as sort of an oddball topic.
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But I was really fascinated in the way that American
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food became like it is today.
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'cause Americans have a very unique relationship with their food.
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We tend to be really number oriented, both about our food and about our bodies.
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We think about.
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Ounces.
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We think about portion sizes, we think about clothing sizes, we think about the
4:00
number on the scale, we think about BMI.
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We think about all these, all these numbers, and of course there's calories.
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I was really curious in the ways that Americans had developed this
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very modern, unusual, and I think not particularly joyful relationship to food.
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So when I was doing my dissertation, years ago as a graduate student, I started
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looking at the emergence of nutrition.
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Modern nutrition science, as we know, it really emerged just over a
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hundred years ago in the early 20th century, and it really had two pillars.
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There were two parts of it that were just what held it up And
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what, caught popular imagination.
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One was vitamins.
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Vitamins were discovered in the early 20th century, and all of a sudden, people.
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Could say, oh, different foods contain different nutrients.
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They do different things to our bodies.
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If we have a disease, it might be because we're deficient in this certain vitamin.
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Or, you know, also like other nutrients, like protein and niacin,
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they joined this idea of nutrients.
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So nutrients were super important as a discovery, but the other pillar.
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Calories.
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Calories are just a unit of measure.
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They're like the equivalent of a teaspoon.
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You know, they just measure something, And what they measure is heat energy.
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In this case, they'd actually been around for a long time, since the
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early 19th century, but no one had thought about applying them
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to food until around the 1890s.
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People first started saying, Hey, it turns out that food
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has different levels of energy.
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This is so obvious to us because we all grew up with this as the wallpaper
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of our minds, but people had not known that foods had different levels of
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energy or as we would say, calories, until they started to measure it around
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the year 1900, and it really changed how Americans related to their food.
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One reason that it did is because Americans.
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Food and their bodies were actually changing.
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This was the era of automation.
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This was the time when automobiles were invented, trains and trolleys
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were becoming more common.
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Buildings suddenly had things like elevators And then escalators.
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People were walking less.
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It was also a time of urbanization.
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More and more Americans were leaving their farms and moving to towns and
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cities and eventually suburbs, and they were moving their bodies much less.
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At the same time they were eating more food was more abundant,
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And for the first-time really in modern history, having excess
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weight became a mainstream problem.
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1920 was really kind of a hinge, where before 1920, if you look in
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newspapers or magazines, you see ads for things like, are you underweight?
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We can help you gain weight, don't worry.
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We can make your hips larger.
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Really?
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You see?
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You see ads like this?
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Pam Peeke, MD: I gotta
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Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: I know.
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Pam Peeke, MD: ads.
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It's sort of like, whoa.
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But you know, the other thing with the calories too, wasn't there a time in
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history when, once it was discovered that calories were this, measure of energy
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that when they were applied to food, it was to be able to make certain that those
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who had, less food, the poor, et cetera.
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Were able to access foods that had higher energy, so that they
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could maintain healthy weights.
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and as well, you know, health and wellbeing.
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So, it was actually kind of used in a public health sense too,
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for whatever period of time.
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To be able to help people until the industrial revolution, took place
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And then all of a sudden our bellies were residing in another state.
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Okay.
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So that's kind of the way I, saw it as well.
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Right.
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Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: Yeah, there's, there was definitely interest
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in like, oh boy, it turns out we need a certain number of calories.
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We have to make sure people get enough.
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But it got twisted in all sorts of ways.
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Like, for example, fruits and vegetables have very few calories.
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So if you read this advice that was going to poor people, you know, in
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the early years, early 19 hundreds, they're saying things like, do not waste
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your money on fruits and vegetables.
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You should buy the highest calorie foods you can.
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You should buy bread.
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You should buy chocolate before you should buy an apple because it's so high calorie.
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Pam Peeke, MD: Well, I actually have no problem with that
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Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: Yeah, it's actually
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Pam Peeke, MD: you know, we're just gonna.
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We're just gonna put that aside for a second.
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No, but your point is so well taken.
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It's how it was applied And the messaging that went along with this.
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you know, now we look back And we say we're horrified.
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Like, whoa, but, you know, part of This is, I just have to say you're a historian.
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It's just wild to see what we believed over the years.
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And I, how we were misled by the lack of that, by the gap in knowledge, base, by
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both the medical field, the public health field, obviously, you know, the food
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industry is a whole different ball game.
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and you'll get into that as well.
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So continue now, and here we are with our little bellies hanging out.
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we're just turning into a mess.
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And suddenly calories are like a thing.
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Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: Yep.
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one fascinating thing is they become popular so quickly, nutrition.
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It still is today, I think of it as the most popular science.
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it's the branch of science that the most.
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Numbers of average.
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People feel empowered to talk about, they feel empowered
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to apply to their own lives.
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It it actually, one result of This is that mainstream publications, you know,
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newspapers will often publish the results of small nutrition studies because
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they know people are interested, but.
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Of course the way science works is that any one small study is usually not that
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revealing, and you'll get these headlines like Cherries are essential food for
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health, or you know, it turns out we don't need something we thought we needed.
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And so average people get this sense that like, oh my gosh,
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nutrition nutrition's crazy.
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Like no one knows what's going on.
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They get the sense that it's zigzagging all over the place.
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And that's partly because it's just so popular they're hearing
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about these small studies that are showing these interesting findings.
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Whereas if we were talking about like molecular biology or something,
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they often, they're also, you know, sometimes publishing small studies
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that have these interesting results to the microbiologists, but no one
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else hears about them or cares.
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so nutrition has always had this really popular appeal and
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calories were a huge part of that.
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From the beginning, but calories were all over the place already by the 1910s.
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Like you read any, like, any women's magazine or lots of advertisements or
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menus, restaurant menus from the beginning started publishing calorie counts.
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Often, as you say, it wasn't about weight loss early on, it was about like, oh, I
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can get, This is the best use of my money.
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I can get the most calories for the least amount of money.
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but yeah, they had a popular.
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Place right away.
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But then again, as I said, 1920s is the sort of hinge.
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So by the twenties, if you think of the roaring twenties
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And the flapper weight loss.
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Just zooms into mainstream culture so that by the 1920s, this idealization of
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thinness that we still have today, it's gotten a little more complicated recently,
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but this idea that thin is beautiful And also that thinness has moral meaning.
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I think that that's one of the reasons that thinness has stuck around
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for us is we have this sense that.
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If you're thin, it reveals something about yourself.
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It reveals self-control.
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It reveals maybe social class.
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I mean, it's, obviously highly linked to money and education today because
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it's expensive to eat healthily today.
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That's one of the, the tragic consequences of our modern food system.
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But this idea that thinness is both beautiful and something
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else, it means something that has been around for a hundred years.
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Pam Peeke, MD: Yeah.
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You know, it's, whoa.
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You know, as I think about it, one of the things I love about history,
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I'm gonna, You know, be thoroughly transparent with you, okay?
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I slept through history when I was in junior high, high
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school's.
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Like, God, get get me through.
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This
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is
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Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: I hated it in high school.
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I mean, I had a few good teachers, but yeah, I would've died of
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shock if you told me I'd be a history professor when I was 16.
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Pam Peeke, MD: well, you know, we didn't quite, I mean, you're a kid, right?
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And so when they say things like, let's look at the Ottoman Empire.
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Let's not, let's go out in the play yard and just, you know,
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kick ass out there for a while.
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So, I mean, I, I.
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Clearly I would cram for each of the midterms and finals and
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obviously score my good grades and everything, but it was a grind.
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It was like, oh, please God, let me get this over with.
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This was like a box I had to check.
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And then really truthfully, it's only been in about the last 10, 15 years that
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suddenly I've, pulled a 180 and history.
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It is so rich.
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It's like, whoa, wait a minute.
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It's because I think that before all of us can cast judgment on
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anything, before we, you know, finger point about anything in our life,
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do you really know the backstory?
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Do you know the history?
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And is there only one history?
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Oh heck.
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No, there isn't, because, You know, history is seen through multiple
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lenses, which is why I like reading, a diversification of, sources.
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so that works well for me.
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And now I'm utterly fascinating.
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I'm always asking like, well.
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What was it like 50 years ago?
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What was going on, You know, a hundred years ago, especially
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as it relates to women.
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You know, This is the Herb podcast after all.
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And, what were women going through?
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So, to your point, suddenly the definition of a beautiful woman.
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Was, a very thin woman.
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And this also, hearkened to moral judgements about that person.
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they're more disciplined.
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they can kind of hold their head high and they're above it all and, you know, on
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and on and, it was kind of a crazy time.
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So then what happened for more like the common woman during that time?
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Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: Yeah, I mean, one important thing to add is
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that not everybody had the same.
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Pressures on them, or the same ideals like looking at, African American people,
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recent immigrants, a lot of those, a lot of those groups were more insulated from
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this super idealization of thinness.
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But it spread and it spread in part through visual culture.
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Like this was also an age when movies were starting by the 1920s.
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Pam Peeke, MD: Magazines.
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Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: Magazines, print culture in general, photographs
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were just getting more common.
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it became easier to compare yourself against other people visually.
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At the same time.
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In the past, most people had just made their own clothes.
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Like you would, you'd get a dress pattern and you'd measure your body and you
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would make clothes to fit your body,
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Pam Peeke, MD: That's a really important point.
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Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: It really is because all of a sudden, by the twenties
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and thirties and forties, some people are still making their own clothes.
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But increasingly you're buying clothes that are pre-made and you have a
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size, and of course everybody's bodies are different shapes.
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You know, like even if you're a size eight or 12 or whatever you are like.
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You know, probably your shoulders are narrower than somebody else's.
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Like we're all different.
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And suddenly you're comparing yourself against a kind of standard
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every time you go to buy clothes.
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Like, oh, my shoulders are too big, or, oh, my arms are really
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Pam Peeke, MD: And then You think there's something wrong
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with you because you're not fitting as it were, the mold.
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You know, there's a, there's a specific mold
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and, so that put even more pressure on a woman, going forward.
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I think that that point is so important.
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cause I remember reading about people doing their own
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clothes and back and forth.
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Oh my gosh.
15:52
and to think that, You know, it was seen as cool that you can actually fit
15:56
into something that one of these, you know, Uber, thin models could get into.
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Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: Yep.
16:02
Yeah, it's really important.
16:04
Um.
16:05
It just leads to a lot of unhappiness.
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Like right away you see it in the sources.
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You see people saying, you know, I will never fit into the newest styles.
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I can never be beautiful.
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Like the movie stars.
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And you see movie stars themselves, dieting like crazy
16:20
by the twenties and thirties.
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and these really extreme short-term diets like the grapefruit diet where
16:25
you're really living on grapefruit, I mean, it's incredibly unhealthy.
16:29
you're miserable 'cause you're not getting any food, you're not getting nutrients.
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Pam Peeke, MD: And they also go to the spas.
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You know, This is when a lot of the very expensive spas, started showing up,
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especially in California where the celebr.
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Would go and drop a bunch of weight before they had to do a movie or
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whatever the issue may be.
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Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: Yep.
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there were also cures that weren't just dietary.
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There were amphetamines.
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I mean, there were drugs like weight loss drugs in the twenties and thirties.
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Pam Peeke, MD: Wait, wait, are, are you talking about Valley of the Dolls?
17:00
yeah, that's, you know, it's like uppers, downers,
17:02
round and rounders.
17:03
Yeah.
17:04
Yeah.
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Even people did it all the time.
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airline stewardesses had to
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adhere to a certain.
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Look weight, And then, You know, they were measured all the time.
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So, you know, the black beauties, the amphetamines became a thing,
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um, with, these, at that time they were called stewardesses.
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Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: Yep.
17:23
And also some kind of wacky, like they had, you could send away money and they
17:27
would send you like a massaging belt that had like, that you would plug in
17:30
and it would like jiggle on your body and supposedly that would like help
17:33
you, shed weight all these fad diets and these crazy cures because people.
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They were so interested in losing weight, but of course the biggest thing, the
17:41
biggest single tool was the calorie that was what increasingly over and
17:45
over again in American culture, weight loss diets go back to the calorie, in
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part because if you're talking about short-term weight loss, calorie counting
17:55
works, it's actually really effective.
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Like if you're counting calories and you adhere to it really
18:00
strictly for a short-term diet.
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You can often lose weight if you're counting calories.
18:05
The problem is that our lives are not about short-term diets.
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Our lives are about our long-term habits.
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They're about, what is sustainable to us and what's joyful to us, and That is
18:16
where the calorie, again and again, fails.
18:19
Pam Peeke, MD: Well, also it spoke to quantity, not quality,
18:23
You know?
18:24
So, You know, I mean, there's a Big Mac And then there's, a little Turkey
18:29
sandwich made with whole wheat bread.
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maybe they're both the same calories, but boy oh boy, You know, the quality.
18:37
so I think we didn't really swing over to the quality of calories, fast enough.
18:42
I think we were just sitting around counting them.
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Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: Right.
18:45
Yeah.
18:45
And of course, and you can also be, and I think it actually encourages malnutrition.
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if you can have really low calorie diet, if you're doing the grapefruit
18:52
diet, but you're not getting a diversity of nutrients, you're not
18:55
getting enough of, all of the things you need to be happy and healthy.
18:59
Pam Peeke, MD: Some of the most malnourished people
19:01
are people who are obese.
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Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: There's that too.
19:04
I mean, that's one of the, the many, and one of the many problems with our modern
19:08
food system is that obesity is often correlated with malnutrition or with just
19:13
a lack of good nutrition, but it's also often correlated with hunger, and that's
19:18
one of the biggest ironies of all, is that people who are poor in a modern America.
19:24
Who are food insecure, who often don't know where their next meal
19:27
is coming from or sometimes don't.
19:29
they are often most likely to be obese.
19:32
we have this hidden hunger today where they're, getting like, you know, they
19:36
have all of the misery of food insecurity.
19:39
At the same time, they often are bearing this cultural stigma against
19:43
obesity And this kind of bigotry.
19:45
it's a preventable problem, but it's one that we as a culture
19:48
really have to reckon with.
19:50
Pam Peeke, MD: in the article itself, there was a great piece, that I
19:53
absolutely loved, And that was, not so long ago, maybe about, oh.
19:58
Oh, let's see.
19:59
Maybe has six or seven podcasts.
20:02
before you, I had Marian Nessel, one of my dear friends, so she was on, and she
20:08
was also in this article, along with you.
20:11
And in it, she said, look, You know, calories definitely count.
20:15
You just shouldn't be counting them.
20:16
Okay, so, so, well, wait a minute now, what does that mean?
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And so apparently as an experiment, she went out to dinner, with a couple people
20:26
and back and forth and they were all asked to estimate the calories, that
20:31
they were consuming at this restaurant.
20:33
And they were off by.
20:35
God knows, I mean, just hundreds and hundreds of calories because
20:40
even the great experts can't get it quite right, one way or the other.
20:45
And then the question is, you know, here we are, we have intermittent fasting.
20:51
So we have people, who are eating within certain windows, maybe, eating within,
20:58
10 hours, And then not eating for 14, which is a very, very, natural way to eat.
21:04
You know, if you wanna be like a cave woman or something like that.
21:08
but it really works.
21:09
I love that stuff.
21:10
But then are you really counting calories And the researchers who
21:15
did the original work, and that's, at the Salk Institute and USC.
21:20
What they actually found was that you don't have to, because just by
21:24
limiting the window, you are already limiting the total number of calories.
21:30
And so how cool is that?
21:32
so then you got that.
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But.
21:34
You know, flashing forward with, calories.
21:38
one of the things I'm gonna ask you after the break is where do we stand today?
21:44
What would we tell someone today about the role of calories, in their health
21:53
and wellbeing nutrition pathway?
22:56
We're back.
22:57
Alright, so where are we today?
23:01
Alright, we saw, how all of this sort of built up over time.
23:06
what would you say to someone in the age of Ozempic, you know, And the
23:11
GLP ones and Wegovy and Zep bound and all these new drugs popping up?
23:18
have calories become irrelevant because people are just basically depending upon a
23:24
drug to kind of rein it in and are people actually today still counting calories?
23:32
Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: Okay.
23:32
That's a great question.
23:33
It's a really big question too.
23:35
Americans today, most of us are overweight.
23:38
About two-thirds of American adults are overweight, and more
23:42
than 40% of adults are obese.
23:45
Those are numbers that are totally unparalleled in human history.
23:50
I am someone who considers myself really body positive.
23:53
I and embrace the fact that we come in all different sizes and shapes to a point.
24:00
One argument of the fat positivity movement is that obesity is natural.
24:06
There's nothing you can do about it.
24:08
I've heard arguments that it's timeless that's just false.
24:12
That's not correct.
24:14
Obesity as something that affects large numbers of people is really modern.
24:18
It's a modern phenomenon that results from our really modern
24:22
and unusual food systems.
24:24
It's also not totally benign when it comes to health.
24:28
You can't know what someone's health is from looking at them, whether
24:30
they're fat or thin or in between.
24:33
but obesity is correlated with all sorts of chronic diseases, and various
24:37
cancers and heart disease and type two diabetes doesn't mean you have those
24:41
if you're obese, and it doesn't mean you don't have them if you're not.
24:44
But it is correlated with it.
24:45
Um.
24:46
Many people who have obesity don't want to.
24:49
They want to lose weight.
24:51
And I understand the appeal of these GLP one drugs, as well as bariatric surgery.
24:58
I understand the appeal.
25:00
However, I am deeply saddened by the fact that so many Americans are eager
25:08
for these drugs specifically, which.
25:11
In essence, take away your desire to eat And the joy that you feel when eating.
25:18
I think there is a third way that we are not, we're not talking enough
25:23
about, which is trying to cultivate a much more historically, sound,
25:29
long-term, proven human relationship with food, which has to do with cooking
25:34
and eating with friends and family.
25:37
It's a joyful path.
25:38
It's one where you're not counting calories, but.
25:41
Where if you're eating mainly homemade food, you're much less likely to
25:44
overeat in the first place and
25:46
Pam Peeke, MD: There's that four letter word cook.
25:49
Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: Yeah, well, cooking is a very important part of it.
25:51
But no, of course.
25:52
This is very hard.
25:53
I can imagine readers or listeners hearing this and thinking,
25:57
I don't have time to cook.
25:58
I've got a full-time job.
25:59
I've got kids, I've got all these commitments.
26:01
or I don't know how to cook.
26:03
It's too intimidating.
26:04
I don't know how to do that.
26:05
the thought of having to meal plan is overwhelming.
26:08
I get that too.
26:10
But that doesn't mean that as a culture, we can't reprioritize.
26:13
There
26:13
are tools out there.
26:15
One of them is home economics.
26:16
I'm a big fan of teaching, cooking in public schools, so
26:20
Pam Peeke, MD: I actually think that's a brilliant idea.
26:24
It's an absolutely brilliant, we should circle back to that.
26:27
We could call it something else.
26:28
Instead of home economic, I would just say, healthy eating.
26:33
Yeah, healthy eating, cooking, whatever.
26:36
Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: yes.
26:37
Absolutely No, I, home economics, an awkward old-fashioned title.
26:40
We don't need it, but we should be teaching this basic life
26:44
skill through public education.
26:46
Pam Peeke, MD: Well, the same thing goes with, money,
26:49
Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: Yes.
26:49
And financial financial literacy and knowledge.
26:52
Absolutely.
26:53
Pam Peeke, MD: You know where we're going, where we're
26:55
actually going with all of this.
26:57
conversation is something really brilliant and I'm so glad you brought it up because
27:03
we don't teach people how to live.
27:06
We just don't
27:07
teach them, you know, we sort of throw 'em out into the wilderness and say,
27:11
you know, have at it and good luck.
27:14
we don't tell them how to manage their money.
27:16
We don't tell them how to nourish themselves.
27:19
We don't tell them how to exercise to get optimal sleep.
27:24
how about all the tools And the tool chest for stress management?
27:28
These are all the pillars of longevity, yet we don't teach them that.
27:32
And what we do is we.
27:33
Throw them out there and say, figure it out.
27:37
Well, that's just not working anymore.
27:39
And, and I think the calorie thing sort of opens the door to that conversation.
27:45
Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: I agree.
27:46
I think cooking is incredibly important and it's also, it has to
27:50
do with what we think of as fun.
27:52
You know, if you think of cooking as a chore.
27:54
As drudgery.
27:55
Then, if you have a couple of hours at the end of your day and you're tired, you're
27:59
gonna wanna sit on the couch or you're gonna wanna, watch a movie or, look at
28:03
your phone or do anything other than cook.
28:05
if you've grown up cooking, if you feel comfortable in the
28:07
kitchen, You've experienced the satisfaction And the creativity
28:11
that you can get through cooking.
28:12
You might say, you know, I'll go ahead and I'll cook for tomorrow.
28:15
I'll go ahead and, you know, meal play on and meal prep for tomorrow.
28:17
I've got the ingredients 'cause I already grocery shopped.
28:20
These kinds of systems that are really possible to institute in your lives
28:24
once you get them going, all these virtuous cycles result from them.
28:28
Pam Peeke, MD: Well, you start having a ritual
28:31
in your life instead of a grind.
28:33
And that part of That is reframing
28:36
the entire process.
28:38
And the problem isn't, you know, people walk around and they say, my
28:42
goal is to drop 20 pounds, you know, and, and to improve my glucose score
28:47
and blah, blah, and all these things.
28:49
Okay?
28:49
Those are admirable goals, you know, rock on.
28:52
Okay.
28:53
What about the systems that are currently in place that support funky habits?
29:00
What about the systems that have to be created to be able to support the
29:06
pathway toward achieving the goal?
29:09
Just saying the goal doesn't mean it's gonna happen.
29:12
You need a system behind that.
29:14
Which is where calories come in.
29:16
calories were always part of the system.
29:18
Count those calories, you know, and back and forth and There are still calorie
29:23
counting people out there in a big way.
29:26
What do you say to those people?
29:28
Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: I would say that if you are eating largely food that
29:31
you've cooked yourself or that You know, family members have cooked, you
29:35
are just likely to get fewer calories.
29:38
especially if you're not using a whole bunch of highly processed
29:41
foods to make it if you're
29:42
Pam Peeke, MD: Well, that's the point.
29:44
You know, I mean, if you're throwing together mac and cheese from a
29:46
box, that's not gonna, you know.
29:49
Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: Yeah, it has it, it is important what you cook with.
29:51
And a lot of this also has to do with not just the pleasure of cooking,
29:54
but what we think of as delicious.
29:56
This is really important.
29:57
'cause I am, I would never advocate that people eat food they hate.
30:00
That sounds terrible to me.
30:01
And I don't think it's sustainable.
30:03
I don't think that's something people will do over and over again for years.
30:06
But how do we inculcate.
30:08
an appreciation for healthy food I'm in no way a purist.
30:11
I love, to eat because I find it just deeply pleasurable.
30:15
But I've, also, my family, we eat a lot of food that's made with plants.
30:20
That's made with vegetables and grains and beans and nuts and, And also, you
30:25
some cheese and dairy and eggs and, you know, occasionally some meat.
30:28
we're not, I don't have an ism that I adhere to strongly, but having
30:32
this kind of a diet is something that everyone in your family likes.
30:36
I mean, that's a superpower
30:37
Pam Peeke, MD: let me take you down memory lane.
30:40
When I was, hosting the National Body Challenge for the Discovery Network,
30:44
the Discovery Health Network, this was a show where we took families from around
30:49
the country And we worked with them and they came from multiple ethnicities.
30:55
And we basically were going to try to teach them about physical
30:58
activity, nutrition, you know, healthy lifestyle, the whole thing.
31:03
And in each case, the families, were already off the rails.
31:06
You know, the kids were already overweight.
31:09
not always, but there were some, And then the parents were, You know.
31:13
Definitely off the rail and I will never forget as long as I live.
31:17
we usually shot the series in, Los Angeles, which is where our studio is.
31:23
there was a beautiful Hispanic family.
31:26
And that Hispanic family, really, really wanted to, improve themselves
31:32
and they ended up teaching us so much.
31:35
I'll give you an example for physical activity.
31:38
Do you think, uh, you'd find them in the gym?
31:40
Nah.
31:41
You know what they'd love to do and they really started using it as
31:44
their go-to for physical activity.
31:46
Dance, of course.
31:48
It's joyful, it's fun.
31:50
The kids would dance with the parents.
31:52
The parents dance together, and it turned out to be just crazy.
31:56
You know, they'd do Zumba, they would do all kinds of wild and crazy things.
31:59
So we were looking like, I don't forget the gym.
32:02
that's the first thing.
32:03
The second thing was.
32:05
Eyeopener.
32:06
So we went to their home And we went into their refrigerator, their
32:12
pantry, And we literally tossed out all the stuff they had been using,
32:17
everything from lard to, whatever.
32:20
And instead the very well-meaning people of the Discovery health.
32:26
Network, showed up with grocery bags of, You know, kale and, all kinds of
32:34
very, kind of interesting, vegetable choices and, protein choices, fat choices.
32:43
And we felt so virtuous when we left, like.
32:47
Yes.
32:47
You know they're gonna crush it now.
32:49
Instead we were about, hmm, about 20 minutes out on the
32:53
road going back to the studios.
32:56
'cause we were at their home And we got a phone call.
32:58
Hi.
32:59
This is, you know, the mother of this, this family.
33:03
I don't know what to do with any of this stuff.
33:05
I don't even know what it is.
33:07
What is this?
33:08
QUI, you know, quinoa obviously, and back and forth.
33:12
I don't even know how to cook this stuff.
33:14
we had a moment.
33:15
We had pull over to the side and go, oh, what we did was we got
33:20
an expert who worked with foods.
33:23
That honored their pathway, not ours.
33:27
How dare we put ours in their path.
33:30
We could teach them about a few things here and there, but, And we ended
33:34
up cleaning up our act on that one.
33:36
And.
33:37
What I'm really trying to say here is that we need to take a moment and understand
33:44
that we have a very different culture now.
33:46
It's a very hybrid culture in many respects, and people cook differently.
33:52
They honor.
33:53
Food differently.
33:54
Look at the Japanese for God's sake, And the way they approach a
33:59
meal, which is all but sacred to them, And that little, phrase.
34:04
They oftentimes say before they have a meal, these are especially true,
34:07
the OK Canals who are like a hundred plus years old and they say, stop
34:14
before full, just stop before full.
34:18
Just little, Guidance advice, things like that.
34:21
Now let's go back to the calorie again.
34:24
Calorie.
34:26
Alright.
34:27
So what would you say to a woman today?
34:32
who's trying to clean up her act.
34:33
She's in her late forties, early fifties, and she's saying, okay, I'm off the rails.
34:38
You know, I've, just been throwing stuff in the microwave
34:42
and I'm tired and whatever.
34:44
But I realize now for a host of reasons, I've got to address this issue.
34:50
So what would you say, what is your guidance about the use of calories?
34:58
Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: So I think having some.
35:01
Basic understanding of calories, like how many calories are in the
35:05
foods that she might normally eat.
35:08
That can be really useful and it can be healthy to have a sense like, oh, this
35:13
has this many calories, but I am not ever an advocate of counting calories.
35:19
But I am an advocate of eating differently.
35:21
So, you know, if you, love a certain product and you can see the calorie count.
35:25
One rule is that if it has a calorie count on it, it tells
35:29
you how many calories are in it.
35:31
Then in many cases, it's processed because it's in a package or a box
35:35
and processed food by definition.
35:37
Is often more calorie dense, which means it has more calories in it.
35:43
and when you eat it, it takes more of it to fill your stomach.
35:46
you're eating more before you feel full than you do with something
35:50
that's not highly processed.
35:52
So that's, that's just a general thing to know.
35:54
Pam Peeke, MD: I actually love that.
35:56
So, you know, if it has calories now that's all not true across the
36:01
board because There are certain things, that are quite healthy,
36:05
that have to have the labeling, but.
36:08
You know, you go in the produce section, where's the, where are the calories?
36:11
Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: Yeah,
36:12
Pam Peeke, MD: And you know, the meat, the fish section,
36:15
they don't have any calories.
36:16
Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: Exactly.
36:17
Yeah.
36:17
So it's, trying to orient yourself, not necessarily in a, like all-or-nothing way.
36:22
I'm not a fan of all-or-nothing, I just don't think that works for almost anybody.
36:26
But trying to orient yourself a bit more towards that produce section, towards
36:31
the whole grain section, towards the canned beans section, Those are foods
36:35
that are gonna be filling And that if you use the right seasonings and plenty of
36:39
salt, This is one thing, obviously blood pressure is an issue for some people, but.
36:44
Blood pressure is such a common problem in America because on average we eat so
36:49
much highly processed food and a highly processed food is filled with sodium.
36:53
But if you're cooking your own food, you can actually add a lot of salt.
36:57
You can salt to taste.
36:58
One of the problems is people hear like, oh, salt's bad.
37:00
So when they're cooking, they don't add that much and their food's kind of bland.
37:04
But for many people, if you don't have a blood pressure problem.
37:07
You can salt pretty generously.
37:09
You want your food to be delicious.
37:10
That's really important.
37:12
If you
37:12
Pam Peeke, MD: And learn how to spice.
37:14
You know, there are a lot of ways to be able to, utilize raw intent and purposes,
37:19
salt substitutes that sort of really spice and, enhance the flavor of whatever.
37:26
You're using, you see this all the time at, spa Resorts for instance.
37:30
They'll always have them on the table and you get a chance to experiment and
37:34
say, oh, this really kind of does work, but I love where you're going with this.
37:40
Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: Yeah.
37:40
And.
37:41
I also don't think that fat is the enemy.
37:44
we having some fat, especially like olive oil, but I like butter.
37:48
You know, having some of this for flavor.
37:50
You don't wanna make your food out of it entirely for every dish.
37:54
but I think.
37:55
making it delicious to you.
37:58
when the base is grains and, and vegetables and fruits, like you're
38:01
gonna have a pretty healthy diet.
38:03
Like you're gonna have a pretty healthy outcome and your calorie count is gonna
38:07
be much, much lower than it would be if you were having the same, trying
38:11
to get the same meal together from highly processed foods in general.
38:15
there are exceptions to this, but This is a general rule.
38:18
short-term diets are not gonna change your life.
38:21
just not, you've gotta orient yourself towards long-term habits.
38:25
and I think the habits have to be grounded in things that make
38:29
you happy And that are doable.
38:31
Now, some of these just might not feel doable to people because
38:34
they require time at a time when families are stretched so thin.
38:38
But I don't think that means we shouldn't be talking about them.
38:41
I think we should be saying things like, maybe we should
38:44
rethink the 40 hour work week.
38:45
we're living in the most abundant age of the world, in the
38:48
wealthiest country of the world.
38:50
Do we really have to Is 40 hours?
38:52
Definitely.
38:53
that's a, a relic from an earlier histotripsy era.
38:56
As speaking as a historian, there's nothing natural or
38:58
timeless about the 40 hour week.
39:01
could we have less and get paid the same?
39:03
This is.
39:04
It might sound crazy to people, but really it's just this was an
39:06
invention of like a hundred years ago.
39:08
Like, let's rethink it.
39:09
Let's have more time to cook.
39:11
Pam Peeke, MD: I really like where you're going because again,
39:14
and one of the reasons why I tapped you is you are historian.
39:18
You're kind of looking back saying, Hmm, wait, wait a minute.
39:21
Now maybe we need to, well, you actually said it at the end of the entire.
39:26
New York Times piece.
39:28
So, Americans have done nothing but zigzag in modern times when
39:35
it comes to food for all I know.
39:39
By the 2030s, we'll all be obsessed with calories again in some new way.
39:46
What did you mean by that?
39:47
Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: I can make no predictions about Americans
39:51
will be relating.
39:52
Pam Peeke, MD: Where's that crystal ball you
39:53
Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: I know, I know.
39:55
I mean, I just really, Americans have done so much going back and
40:00
forth on food, especially when it's related to weight loss.
40:03
you know, whether fat's the worst thing or sugar's the worst thing, or some
40:08
fats are okay, or actually it's carbs.
40:10
We've just been all over the place just in my lifetime, I have no doubt.
40:14
That, calories are probably gonna come back in some way.
40:18
I wouldn't say I have no doubt I wouldn't, I'm not at all thinking,
40:21
you know, we've got the nail in the coffin here and, calories
40:24
are, gonna be totally irrelevant.
40:25
I'm sure they're not.
40:26
Food energy is important, but I think this 20th century way of
40:31
counting calories, it just has been.
40:34
By and large, a failed experiment when it comes to ordinary people
40:38
trying to live their lives.
40:39
and, You know, trying to count the calories.
40:41
very few people successfully and joyfully do that for their whole lives.
40:45
It's rare.
40:46
I'm sure there are some people out there, but it's rare.
40:48
for most people it's a short term diet solution that maybe
40:51
they do lose weight short term.
40:53
Then when they stop counting the calories, because it's, it's fatiguing, it removes
40:57
them from the social interaction that would otherwise be the heart of a meal.
41:01
And it also takes so much time and energy, like we have better
41:04
things to do than count calories.
41:06
We should be thinking about our children or art or poetry or something out.
41:11
You know, you know, inventing something like calories have been a real-time
41:14
and energy suck for women especially.
41:17
I think there's a better way.
41:19
There's a way that we don't have to use so much bandwidth on food choices if
41:23
we can sort of automate better habits.
41:25
Pam Peeke, MD: Okay, I'm going to give you the way I'm looking at it.
41:30
I'm actually writing a, my next book and I'm sort of
41:33
playing with this teaser alert.
41:35
so This is kind of the way I've always looked at it.
41:40
When I was younger and my mother would take me to a very nice department
41:46
store, to go shopping for clothes.
41:50
she always made certain that I learned something.
41:55
that was a value to me going forward as we were doing this shopping adventure.
42:01
So here's the way it comes down And the way I look at it.
42:05
So when I walked into to the very first department store, I was clueless.
42:09
I'm like, oh my God.
42:10
There's the couture section.
42:13
You know, what is the, I had to look up couture like, what is that?
42:16
then there's, You know, a section over here.
42:18
Everything's for sale.
42:20
what's really happening here.
42:22
So she would sort of explain things as we went from department to department.
42:26
As she was teaching me, what she was actually doing was telling me how many
42:30
calories were in each one of those price tags for all intent and purposes.
42:36
So she said, you see the word couture guaranteed four to five figures stay
42:41
the hell away from that department.
42:44
So for me that's like, you know, the ultra process stuff.
42:46
It is like, no, we're not gonna go there.
42:48
So every time you go into depart store, you don't have to go, oh,
42:51
let's relearn this again and let's look at every single price tag.
42:56
No, you already know you have a pretty good scent, And then
43:00
you find the safe places.
43:02
Let's go over here.
43:04
To, a particular designer that really, you know, is more, as it
43:09
were, midway in terms of pricing, and they have really great stuff and
43:13
they've always fit well, and they're going to cost x number of dollars.
43:19
Typically, I'm gonna make up numbers.
43:21
Like, you know, you're gonna buy a dress for $200.
43:24
I'm just making it up.
43:26
So then you know you're safe.
43:27
You're like, okay, I'm safe.
43:30
And then do you ever really have to be totally shocked the next time you go in
43:35
the department store And the dress is still 200, it's like nothing's changed.
43:41
You know, it's still gonna be.
43:43
That little mid-market, brand that just works beautifully for you, you're safe.
43:48
You don't have to obsess whether it's $228 95 cents or 225, do you
43:55
know it's just gonna be within a range that you find to be safe.
44:00
Well, I look at food the same way.
44:03
You know, where are the high ticket items?
44:06
what are the item?
44:08
When I say high ticket, they could also be really beautiful and wonderful
44:12
in terms of magnificent desserts.
44:15
At an expensive restaurant, there's still high ticket items, And so, you
44:20
know, having a, taste of them and sharing it with, people around the table.
44:24
Yeah, that works.
44:25
Okay.
44:26
You can't do that with clothing, but you can certainly do it
44:29
with, You know, your food.
44:30
So I got to a point where, I'd walk into a restaurant I kind
44:34
of knew the high ticket items.
44:36
I knew the ones, you know, that were fairly safe.
44:39
I knew the ones that I was quite familiar with.
44:42
And then if I didn't, then I'd ask a lot of questions.
44:46
How is this prepared?
44:47
What exactly is this?
44:49
Dish then I've continued to enhance my knowledge base.
44:54
Do I count every single calorie?
44:56
Oh, gosh, no.
44:58
Because to your point, science has now shown that it's not just about how
45:03
much you eat, it's when you eat it.
45:07
Which is where time restricted eating, you know, having those windows of
45:11
time to eat is so valuable and has been codified by published, peer
45:18
reviewed literature and studies.
45:20
So, suddenly there's a when factor, there's a quality factor.
45:25
Right.
45:26
And there's also a, are you matching it with physical activity factor if
45:31
you're just sitting on your ass all day?
45:33
no.
45:34
So if you get sick, well, not sick.
45:36
If you break a leg, say for instance, you can't eat like you were out there
45:41
rocking and rolling like you normally are.
45:44
You gotta rein it in because.
45:46
There has to be more of a matchup, you know, between
45:50
physical activity and nutrition.
45:52
So that's kind of my thrust.
45:55
it's much more, it's kind of a soft, welcoming thrust, but to your point.
46:02
Everyone out there in the Herb Podcast land, you have to do a
46:06
little homework in the beginning.
46:09
You gotta know, look it up.
46:11
Look, come on.
46:12
Now we have apps that literally you could take a picture.
46:16
Of food and it'll slap you right back with the calories, the
46:20
macronutrients, the whole gig.
46:22
You have wonderful ways of being able to educate yourself if you
46:27
have any question whatsoever.
46:29
We didn't have that a hundred years ago.
46:31
We've got it now.
46:33
So you turn yourselves in a little calorie focused, smarty pants, And then.
46:40
Relax, It's sort of like I'm in familiar.
46:44
How many times do you have to make a three bean soup before you figure out
46:50
that This is perfectly fine and You know it's so filling 'cause of the amount
46:55
of protein in it that you won't eat.
46:58
You know, a vat of this.
47:00
You will have what you need.
47:02
Slow down your eating savor, enjoy.
47:07
Add all of the things that you've just said, Helen.
47:11
Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: I think that's fantastic advice.
47:13
It's not that people shouldn't have some knowledge about either
47:16
calories or certainly nutrition.
47:18
I think it's really important.
47:19
Actually.
47:19
As I said, I think we should be teaching it in the schools, but I really think
47:23
it's so important that once you have the knowledge, step back and allow like a
47:27
really bird's eye view to come into play where you're thinking about the foods, how
47:33
they work together, you know, everything is generally healthy, and you have treats.
47:36
I'm a big advocate for treats sometimes I think if you're depriving yourself
47:39
all the time, that's mentally fatiguing.
47:42
Can't do that.
47:42
Like a little treat sometimes is just what the doctor
47:45
Pam Peeke, MD: It is just perfect.
47:47
Absolutely.
47:47
You've gotta have that.
47:48
Now you've published a new book.
47:51
It's called Picky.
47:52
How American children became the Fussiest eaters in history.
47:56
Give us just, a quick, synopsis of what this book is about so
48:02
that when they run out to get it, they know what they're getting.
48:05
Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: Yep.
48:06
So This is a book that's based on more than 10 years of research,
48:11
which was all inspired by this.
48:13
question, this, this amazement that I had when looking at histotripsy
48:17
sources from the 19th century, because kids ate so differently back then.
48:22
American kids in the 19th century were eating shellfish and organ
48:26
meats and all sorts of vegetables and coffee and spicy sauces, and vinegar,
48:31
pickles, And this whole range of foods.
48:34
And they weren't only eating them, they were loving them.
48:37
And it wasn't just kids who were poor or who didn't have enough food.
48:40
Kids of all socioeconomic backgrounds were seen as curious, omnivorous, food lovers.
48:48
how could this be?
48:49
'cause aren't kids supposed to be naturally picky?
48:51
Don't they have special taste buds?
48:53
So I dug into this question and I discovered that, in
48:58
the history of our species.
48:59
Kids have never been picky eaters.
49:01
That's a really modern invention That is caused by a bunch
49:05
of factors in the present.
49:07
you know, a highly processed food is a big one.
49:09
it's one of the biggest, but it also has to do with our ideas about psychology
49:13
and our modern fears that will mess kids up if we try to teach them.
49:17
To like different kinds of foods.
49:19
it's a really hopeful book.
49:21
I think it's, about our amazing capacity as humans to learn
49:24
to love different foods.
49:26
It's a book that's ultimately about pleasure.
49:28
One of the biggest ironies, I think, is that parents think they're being nice
49:32
parents when they give their kids special foods and cater to, you know, what
49:35
they see as their, their special needs.
49:37
But in reality, it creates a lot of dislikes and that's not.
49:41
Inevitable as much as, and I know many of people listening probably were
49:45
picky eaters or, might be picky eaters today, or their kids are, but That is
49:50
not the way it has been in our species.
49:52
It doesn't have to be this way.
49:54
Pam Peeke, MD: where can they find this?
49:55
Everywhere.
49:55
Right?
49:56
Amazon,
49:57
the whole thing.
49:59
Okay, so it's picky how.
50:01
American children became the Fussiest eaters in history.
50:05
And everyone.
50:06
We've been talking to Dr.
50:08
Helen Vit and she is the author of this fabulous book and other's, and she's
50:15
also a historian of American food.
50:19
We have tapped you as a repeat offender.
50:22
We're definitely going to have you back because I could listen to you all
50:27
day And so could our entire audience, but unfortunately we can't do that.
50:32
So all I can say is thank you, Dr.
50:37
Helen VI for being on the her podcast.
50:41
Helen Zoe Veit, PhD: you so much.
50:43
Pam Peeke, MD: Alright, and I wanna thank my sponsor, solar Array Vitamins,
50:46
minerals and Herbs, rooted in nature And the new Her Life Stages products.
50:52
Scope it all out@solararray.com.
50:56
Take a moment now leave us a review because we love to hear from you.
51:01
Oh, that rhymes.
51:02
Hmm.
51:03
Maybe I've got a poetry thing in my future.
51:05
So this has been a production of podcast Health.
51:09
Yay to the team.
51:11
And remember, your time in this world may be limited, but the things you
51:16
could do with that time, not counting.
51:19
Calories are not.
51:21
So get on out there and enjoy a meal.
51:25
Cook, have some joy around what you put in your mouth for crying out loud.
51:31
Get that healthy food food happening right now.
51:36
Thanks for listening, everyone.