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Joel Schwartzberg on Making a Point That Actually Lands · Expertly Said

• Kristen Sweeney: My guest today is Joel Schwartzberg. Joel is a workplace communications coach, speaker, and speechwriter who helps professionals simplify and sharpen their points to make their words matter. A former speechwriter and coach for a national nonprofit, Joel now works with clients across healthcare, financial services, biopharmaceutical science, cybersecurity, nonprofit advocacy, national defense, animal welfare, and social justice. He's the author of the best-selling second edition of Get to the Point. You're listening to Expertly Said, a podcast on the art and impact of communication. I'm Kristen Sweeney, founder and CEO of Every Little Word. Simplify, sharpen, and sell your message, and has contributed to Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, CNBC, Newsweek Inc., and Toastmaster magazine. A one-time Wheel of Fortune contestant, national champion public speaker, horror film fan, and cat rescuer, Joel brings energy, humor, and enthusiasm to every workshop and conversation. Joel, welcome to the show. Joel Schwartzberg: Thank you so much, Kristen. I'm I'm really happy to be here and happy to be talking to your expertly said audience. Kristen Sweeney: Yes, thank you. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. I think we have a lot of ⁓ shared ideas. So once we get to that one big idea a little bit later on around getting to the point, ⁓ yeah, I'm just looking forward to digging in. And I hope I hope that when I introduced the book, I gave it an appropriate amount of you could hear the exclamation ⁓ in the title there. Joel Schwartzberg: Very efficient and effective, Kristen. I'll give you an A plus. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. So Joel, we heard a little bit in your bio about kind of ⁓ some of the some of the maybe way stations in your career. Tell us about your origin story. Did you always know you wanted to work in communications? That's it for this episode of Expertly Said. We are produced by Every Little Word, a boutique content and communications agency. If you like what you heard, you know what to do. Subscribe, share the episode with a colleague, or leave us a review. If you want to connect with me directly, please do. You can find me on LinkedIn, just search Kristen Sweeney. Thanks for listening. Talk soon. Joel Schwartzberg: Well, this could take the entire hour over time, Kristen. So I'm gonna give you what I call the aha moments. I mean I started really my journey in sixth grade when I joined the speech and debate team. ⁓ we called it forensics, and I never stopped. I continued all the way through middle school, high school, ⁓ and college. When I was a senior in college, I was a national champion. I then ended up coaching for University of Pennsylvania and Seton Hall and Queen's College and St. Joseph's. And then I thought, that's it. Kristen Sweeney: I'm sure. Joel Schwartzberg: I'm like a basketball player who never went to the NBA. But I learned that when I was interviewing for jobs, when later I was speaking at conferences or trying to make a point to my boss or to my direct reports, I was using a lot of the things I learned as a competitor. And I said to myself, I would love to share this with other people. So I kind of hooked up with an organization called Media Bistro in New York City. ⁓ and they hired me as their first public speaking coach. And that's where I sort of really developed my craft and moved it over from a competition context to a coaching context. And I really enjoyed that. And I was doing everything. If you Googled public speaking tips, I was doing covering all that. Eye contact, gesturing, volume. But here's the thing, about three years into it, I would ask my clients, and these were everyone from interns to CEOs, I would say, just so we're on the same page, what point are you trying to make? What is the big takeaway? And Kristen they either wouldn't have one or they would have something that was not a point. It was a topic or a catchphrase or a category or a notion or just a broad idea. And that's really the the biggest aha moment because I realize that if you don't have a point, you're you're pretty much rendered pointless. Whether it's a speech or an email or a tweet or you know, you're using the chat mechanism. ⁓ it all starts with that. So I turned around the trajectory of what I was doing. I keeping all those like ornaments on the Christmas tree about eye contact and walking and standing But really the bread and butter of it is do you have a point or do you not have a point? And if in the likely case you don't, let's really work on that first. And then the really the next stage of my career was I had so many ideas, I wanted to put them all in a capsule. And so I pitched this book to a publisher called Barrett Kohler called How to Make a Point, and that's what became Get to the Point. Kristen Sweeney: I love that. I love that. I I really like hearing how you blend, you know, I have a background as a performer, and so to me, like presence and presentation are a key part of communication and the ability to share a message. Of course, a lot of the work that we do at Every Little Word is focused on written communication. And so the the presentation i is something different. It's in the structure, the formatting, it's in how Joel Schwartzberg: In the mind as well, you're cutting the cognitive? Yeah. Right. Kristen Sweeney: In the mind? Yeah, absolutely. But even the in the finished product, right? Of like, is it is it readable? It before you even get to does it have something to say? It has to feel like something that a person can kind of take in. ⁓ but I just Yeah. And I feel like all those things just just really go along. It's not just eye contact, it's not just meaning. It is really like combining them and ⁓ Joel Schwartzberg: Right. With their ears versus their eyes. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: For an experience. And as you were talking about, you know, reading tips ⁓ online for public speaking, I was thinking like what a what a difficult way to learn something because it's so experiential and so you know Joel Schwartzberg: Mm-hmm. Kristen Sweeney: So many of us and you know, even myself with a performance background, like there's anxiety, there's doubt, there's the voice in your mind that starts kind of creeping in and you need someone to look at you from the outside and say, Did you know you're doing this weird thing with your arms? Like you don't know they're attached to your body? Did you and you probably don't know. ⁓ like you really need that that person to person ⁓ interaction in order to really affect change, I think. Joel Schwartzberg: Right. Doubting yourself. Absolutely. Right. Yeah, you can't do it yourself because you're too biased. You're in your own head. ⁓ you really need an external thing because it's not about what happens here or even what comes out of here. It's how the audience what they receive. It doesn't if you do all this right, but they don't receive your point, that's an epic fail. ⁓ because the goal is not this, the goal is reaching you. And the only way to measure it back to your point is really to go up to someone in your practice audience and say, Hey, Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Joel Schwartzberg: What point do you think I was trying to make? Or can you articulate that? Or let me give it to you. Did that come through as a takeaway? ⁓ that's the ball game right there. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love too that you tied this to something in as far back as middle school and speech and debate, which is like it's almost like a hi a hidden superpower that was available to anyone all along. I I think that about I don't know, certain things in my life like Joel Schwartzberg: Really? Kristen Sweeney: This has changed a little bit with AI and voice dictation in recent years, but I s for years I felt like typing was my superpower. And I attributed it to this ninth grade keyboard class I took. ⁓ and I worked as a legal secretary and did dictation. And and I was just like, for a long time, that was like available to anybody, but not sort of taken up by everybody. so I I love hearing that. It it makes me think of and tell a very quick story, Joel Schwartzberg: Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: I was not in speech and debate, but we did in high school have a like a mock trial as part of a a world history course we were doing. And ⁓ I remember that we had we had to do a lot of research because we had to tie in our arguments to real events. And we discovered that one of the witnesses the other side was planning to call was not alive at the time of. Joel Schwartzberg: Yes. Mm-hmm. Kristen Sweeney: the date of the trial. And so I remember they call this witness up and I stand up and I'm like, objection! The witness is dead. And my teacher was like, who was the judge, was like, just settle down now. Move on. Exactly. Exactly. so all right. Tell me a little bit about Joel Schwartzberg: Yeah. Right. Move on. Kristen Sweeney: kind of the transition you made because not only are you in communications, right, but you have experience both on the corporate side and as on the entrepreneurial side of leading your own practice. Why and how was that jump kind of important for you? What led you to making that transition? Joel Schwartzberg: Yeah, I was a speechwriter for ten years. But when they realized that I had a lot of this presentation training, and I'd been doing that a lot longer than speechwriting, they asked me to teach courses through the L and D. I taught two courses at that nonprofit on sharing ideas successfully, successful email writing. And then they allowed me to do some work on the side with some clients. They allowed me to write my book. But really through that experience, I wanted to reach more people. And frankly, the way I was presenting it, because I wrote the book, ⁓ I had it had deep meaning to me. And I love sharing that deep meeting meaning. So actually I became more fulfilled by coaching, training, and teaching than by writing in the voice of other people. You know, we all have talents, we all have skills, but where does that connect to a passion? To where you're reaching what what my wife and I call a fulfillment audit. How fulfilled am I by this versus this? Beyond, am I talented or can I do this versus that? Heck, I could write, you know, rhyming poetry for any event that you could want. I'm really good at it. My parents ask me to do it all the time. Would I want to devote my life to that? Absolutely not. ⁓ but and I've done some stand-up comedy. Is that really what I want to do? No, that freaks me out. That makes me too anxious. So what the sweet spot for me, and what's interesting. Kristen Sweeney: Ha ha ha. Joel Schwartzberg: I'll mention this in a moment, is that I'm a natural-born trainer. And my parents were school teachers their whole lives. My wife is a school teacher. I actually started jobs at Nickelodeon and Time for Kids, so I always worked for kids. So I think I always had this natural ability. And one of the things I learned recently through LinkedIn and talking to some other keynote coaches and things like that is don't conflate coaching with keynoting. Those are different things. Kristen Sweeney: ⁓ nice. Joel Schwartzberg: One is a little more performative and less interactive, but just as engaging. And the other, you're really trying to get people to learn a skill and apply that skill in the session. And point blank, he said to me, Joel, you can do keynotes, I'm sure, but what I'm feeling for you from you is that you're a coach, you're a trainer. And that really resonated with me because I think he was right. I like the interaction. I like walking amongst the people. breaking them into groups and nothing, nothing fulfills me more than seeing the aha moment from one of my clients when they realize, wow, with that one little trick or that hack, ⁓ I can be a lot more efficient. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah. I yeah, I like the distinction there. It's you know, ⁓ coaching and I I I can relate this to a lot of the work that that we do as well. We collaborate very often with executives and experts, and it's a dialogue, right? It's not a one-way, which a keynote is more here's what I know, and I'm sharing with you. And again, absolutely can be extremely powerful. A dialogue requires a little more of that ⁓ improvisational or that kind of that Joel Schwartzberg: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. One too many. Kristen Sweeney: That satisfaction of matching kind of the perfect solution to the problem right in front of you. I think there's a a real problem solving element. And I know that's something I really enjoy in my work. And it sounds like you probably do as well. Of like, ⁓ we found the right solution to unlock this exact situation, which is Joel Schwartzberg: Mm-hmm. Right. Right. And responsive listening is a really big part of that. That's not as elevated in a keynote. There's obviously some interaction you could have in a keynote. But when you're doing coaching, you really have to listen to what they need. And s truly really try to bring it out in people. So everyone's coming for communication coaching, but I really want someone to raise their hand and say, you know, every time I'm in a meeting, I get cut off and interrupted by the men in the room. What can I do about that? And I'm like, I'm so glad you asked. Kristen Sweeney: Right, right. Joel Schwartzberg: Because we can apply this point training to that. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. And it's those those specifics. I mean, I don't know if the devil's in the details, but certainly the the beauty, the gold is in the details, right? Of like those specific situations that I think really unlock to being relatable to others where someone it's one thing to talk about it as a high level like a communication challenge. But when you say Joel Schwartzberg: The angel. Kristen Sweeney: I write emails and I just send them into the void and it seems like nobody ever receives them. You know, that's a different feeling and a relatable one for, you know, for many people. So ⁓ I love that. Let's talk a little bit about ⁓ who your audience is today and maybe like who you love being able to help the most. Joel Schwartzberg: Right. Hello. Yeah. Yeah. You know, this idea point making is so broad, and it sounds like I'm hedging the question, but everybody can be in the business of making more effective and impactful points. So my clients range from CEOs, the top of the C ladder, ⁓ to people in PR, to people in HR who do some incredibly important communications with staff, ⁓ to interns. At night I ⁓ I work for an after-school program where I'm actually teaching these things to third through fifth graders. And what people don't believe, but what I do love sharing, is I don't have them write something and memorize it and read it. To me, that's not public speaking. ⁓ public speaking is having an idea, turning it into a point, ⁓ and supporting that point with evidence and starting with a hook and ending with a reinforcement. And believe it or not, Third graders can do that if they understand the the setup ⁓ and the skeleton of it, and then they just see it as filling these buckets. And their ideas about, you know, making summer longer and reducing homework, things like that. So the topics are a little different, ⁓ but the structure and the idea of having a point and defending it are the same. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah, I'm I'm smiling because my first grader recently came well, ⁓ first grader for like ⁓ no, second grader as of five minutes ago. She's just finished her last day of school. ⁓ she came home with a a paper and made an excellent point and her thesis was cleaning up is the worst thing in the world. Joel Schwartzberg: Mm. Yeah. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Kristen Sweeney: And she had a very convincing argument about how it was not fun and all of the other things she would rather be doing. ⁓ and her teacher, you know, gave her an E plus, but wrote a note that said, yes, but when you make a mess, somebody has to clean it up. Joel Schwartzberg: Right. We have to stay, I always tell we have to stay in the realm of reality. We cannot cancel homework and we cannot make summer nine months ⁓ a year. But you said a word, Kristen, I'd like to put some mustard on that. I always say that. you said thesis. And one thing I like to tell people is I like to use the word point, but we've encountered this idea throughout our lives. In school, especially in college, we called it a thesis. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Joel Schwartzberg: In PR, we call it a key message. Sometimes in C-suite communications, we call it an elevator pitch. My wife in her fourth grade language arts class, she calls it a so what. But really at the end of the day, it's the thing you want to, as we used to say in debate, argue. It's the thing you want to make a case for. You should be able to articulate that simply, like your child did, ⁓ so that not only your audience gets it, but you know what your goal is. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah. And let's go right into this because this is our one big idea. I know we have a lot to unpack here. So it the one big idea is making a point. And Joel, you said something early on about all the things that a point sort of is not. and I have a lot of firsthand experience with this. So I'd love you to even just repeat the list for our listeners, and then maybe we can get into why are these things not the same as having an actual point. Joel Schwartzberg: Right. Right. You know, I usually coach people not to spend too much time on what something is not because you're delaying your real point about what something is. But in this case, a point is so often confused for other things that are not as impactful. So I start out with what it is not. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Joel Schwartzberg: It is not a topic, that's number one. So often we think what's the topic of your speech? What's the topic of that session? And what is a topic really? It's an area, it's a theme, which is another word I don't like to use. It's ⁓ a an idea. a catchphrase, sometimes it's a category. I'm gonna talk about podcasting. Well that's a category. You're not is it podcasting good? Is it bad? Is it moving up? Is it moving down? Who responds to pot you know you're not saying anything. So the things are not topic, theme, category, catchphrase is a big one. Notion sometimes, observation. Hey let's explore something. I mean not really commit to anything or don't extract anything. We're just exploring. We're just talking. Kristen Sweeney: Yes. Yeah. Joel Schwartzberg: We're just talking. So those are the things what a point is not. What a point is, is a proposition, a suggestion. A recommendation where you're transferring ⁓ a supported idea and like I say a proposition someone else to that idea so there impact. Now impact is a big word. ⁓ I had bagel this morning, it had tremendous impact. And surely I use the same word for that bagel as I would for this game changing, you know, campaign. So I I know, right? Kristen Sweeney: I don't know, I love a good bagel. Joel Schwartzberg: Very important. So when I use impact in this context, ⁓ like to say it'll make people feel, ⁓ and act. ⁓ If does one of those three things, that's a worthy goal. ⁓ But it just sort of gives an impression ⁓ or them wonder ⁓ or them, to me not enough. ⁓ And a takes you further. ⁓ So now we know what a point is. It's a proposition. So it's the difference between I want to talk about podcasting, too. I think podcasting is the best way to reach our millennial audience. Now you have a means and you have an impact. So that's a broad idea. And get to the point, I have two very specific tests. And if you have time for it, they're very clean and short. I'd love to share it with your audience. Kristen Sweeney: Yes, I I wanna hear them. I wanna just first ⁓ empathize a little or validate. so being on the content side, this exact scenario happens to us all the time. and I think that it is in part because coming I'm sure you'll sp we'll talk about this more. Coming up with a point is difficult and it takes brain power. And so, you know. Joel Schwartzberg: Please. Kristen Sweeney: You could have an hour-long conversation with someone and they they kind of tell you all the things they want to talk about. It's these themes. And we use things like themes or content pillars as sort of guardrails, but they are top level meant to then inform specific ideas, statements, pro like thesis statements, propositions that come forward. So this will happen. yeah, I want to talk about I want to talk about AI. My response is always the same. Great. Joel Schwartzberg: Yeah. Right. Kristen Sweeney: What about it? What about it? And sometimes they don't know. Sometimes it turns out they don't really have anything to say about it. And very often it's that we actually have to have a dialogue that helps them uncover. Joel Schwartzberg: Yeah. Right. Kristen Sweeney: What their point of view actually is. It's not fully formed in their mind, just ready to burst onto the scene. It's a series of swirling thoughts, but through conversation, we can actually figure out what it is they want to say. And we do that together. same thing, keywords, right? Okay, here's a keyword. So we're gonna write about mortgage rates. Great. What about them? Joel Schwartzberg: Right. Right. It's not just about like SEO for presentation. Yeah, yeah. Kristen Sweeney: What about them? And you know, if you're doing a certain kind of like informational article that's one, not our kind of core capability, but also in the age of LLMs, like far less valuable. Maybe you can just say mortgage rates and that's enough. But in general, it's like, what what point are you trying to make? What is that one big takeaway? So I really it says everywhere, pervasive, this problem. Joel Schwartzberg: Yeah, I just took the Absolutely. And just to put some a little more emphasis on that, when I work with nonprofits, it becomes even more critical. For a profit, yeah, if you don't do this right, maybe you're selling less Coca-Cola. If you're working with a nonprofit and you're talking about everything from justice, human rights, I have a client that focuses on paid leave. ⁓ and it's not about pay leave. It's about supporting the laws that protect women in the workplace and setting up guardrails so that they're protected ⁓ when they need that kind of security. You know, what is the proposal you're making, not just the topic that you're addressing. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So yes, let's get into those two those two tests for whether or not you have a point. Joel Schwartzberg: And this is this is where I have a lot of fun. ⁓ the first is called the I believe that test. And it basically says take what you think is your one sentence point, your thesis, your elevator pitch, put the words I believe that in front of it, and ask yourself one question. Is this now A complete sentence, ⁓ not a fragment, not a run-on, something that would get a check plus from your fourth grade language arts teacher as a complete sentence. Let's see how this fails. I believe that podcasting. No. I believe that the power of podcasting. No. I believe that the impact of podcasting. No. I want to talk about the impact of podcasting. Well, guess what? That's not a point because it it fails the I believe that test. You don't get to a complete sentence until you say something like, I Kristen Sweeney: Right. Ha ha ha. Joel Schwartzberg: I believe that a new podcast will really help bring ⁓ to our brand a whole new universe of children. Or a true crime podcast will really help people understand our mission ⁓ to defeat crime. ⁓ Whatever that is, you have an impact ⁓ and a means to achieve it, which brings up the second test, and that's called the XY test. Just as easy, and it's basically an equation. Does your point fit this equation? If we do X, Y will result. And you need to have both the X and the Y. So let's go back to podcasting for a minute. ⁓ you say if we do a podcast, we will reach our millennial audience. This is what it sounds like with just an X. I think we should do a podcast. To which someone goes, Yeah, I guess podcasts are popular, but why? ⁓ to what end? Like everyone of us a podcast, are we just doing it because it's popular? All right. So this is what a Y sounds like without an X. We gotta do something to reach these millennials. We're just not attracting them. Good point, Joel, but how? What are you suggesting? And so you need both the means. Kristen Sweeney: Ha ha ha. Joel Schwartzberg: Let's create a podcast and the impact to reach our millennial audience ⁓ audience. And that works with everything. If you're a teacher, ⁓ what kind of curriculum, innovative curriculum, are you creating that will increase graduation rates? So you need to have both if you really want that point to have power and to make people feel, think, or act. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. I'm thinking about that meme that's like step one, have a meeting. Step two, question mark. Step three, millennials love you. Or you know, and and that's that is I think what I'm really taking away from this is that all of the the sort of the versions of what it's not are actually they're on the way. Joel Schwartzberg: Right. Kristen Sweeney: Right? There it's just that you haven't pushed far enough. So yes, the step one, we're together. Step three, we know what we want to achieve. Step two, we have no idea how like that's how lots of ideas are born. That's how lots of plans are made. It's just that is not the finished thing. That's not the plan. and similarly Joel Schwartzberg: Yeah. Right. Right. And now let me let me bring in Einstein for a moment 'cause he said this amazing quotation that I always bring out. It's I don't like to use quotations 'cause it's this is a dead guy. What does he know about what we're talking about today? But in this case, ⁓ he said if you can't say it simply, you don't understand it well enough. And he's not saying, All right, cut words. Be more brief, make it shorter. He's saying that to make it Kristen Sweeney: Pl please, sure. Yes. Joel Schwartzberg: Simple enough to have impact for people to understand it, you need to dig into it, unpack it, and figure out the basic molecular pieces of it. What am I saying will happen? How am I saying it will happen? You know, we all love Simon Sinek, who said start with why. But I feel like he went only partially the way into it. He explained to us the importance of having a why, but not necessarily how to articulate it specifically. So I feel like with deference to Simon, I feel like ⁓ there's an extra step we can do here, an activity step. And that's where the I believe that test and the XY test come in. Kristen Sweeney: Mm. Yeah. Yeah, I love and yeah, I believe that test too, right? And I think you've made this point elsewhere now. Every time I say point, I'm like ⁓ but that it it is therefore also arguable not to table stakes, like if everyone else believes it too, then it there's not that much to talk about, maybe. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Joel Schwartzberg: Mm-hmm. Right, then it's a truism, really. ⁓ and that's one of the corollaries. In my workshop, we look at things like the highest value outcome. Sometimes people say, if we do this right, we'll bring more traffic to our website. And I'm like, that's not the impact you really want, right? That's a means to an end. Or we use what I call a badjective. Well, this campaign is gonna be great. This campaign is gonna be just very good for our company. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Joel Schwartzberg: You know, great, let's use the bagel test again. I had a great bagel, it was a very good bagel. Surely we could see something better. And to those, we just have to ask why. Why is this a great new ⁓ internal process? Well it's great because it'll make us more efficient and save us money. All right, let's get rid of that badjective. Great. Let's just say that this new internal campaign will make us more efficient and save us money. And so we've removed the badjective to do that Einsteinian work of making it simple by unpacking it. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah. I I love that quote. And it's funny, you know, I've I've had the privilege of interviewing, you know, hundreds of folks during my career, and s including some, you know, like literal rocket scientists and other MIT professors. These are folks that stand out. And and one in particular is a systems thinking professor, ⁓ extremely, you know, well regarded, and he Joel Schwartzberg: Mm-hmm. Kristen Sweeney: tell like uses the best clearest analogies he tells this hilarious story about how all of these you know engineers and scientists couldn't figure out how to work a copy machine in the 70s like just it's so relatable and it sometimes I find that folks they don't have the It's not that they can't explain something more simply, but there's a a confidence piece that doing so will make them sound less credible or less authoritative. And in reality, the opposite is so often true that being able to demonstrate a simple way without losing nuance, without dumbing down, but you don't have to use all of the technical jargon. There's there's sometimes a time and place for that, but ⁓ Joel Schwartzberg: Right. Kristen Sweeney: in order to be authoritative or to demonstrate your expertise. Joel Schwartzberg: Yeah, absolutely. And I think we've been trained to think not in points. Like let's go back to when we were in third and fourth grade. What we were we asked to write? I was asked to write compare and contrast essays. Compare these two books or compare these two moments in history and contrast them. But make a point about it? What I learned from it, that wasn't part of it. Or write a five paragraph essay. All right, here are my five paragraphs. But was I ever schooled in having an idea? having an opinion, making sure ⁓ having that all lead to some sort of recommendation. I I was never trained in that. And I Kristen Sweeney: ⁓ that's so interesting. I I feel like I was that that and I ⁓ I feel like the five paragraph essay gets a bad rap because it's like thesis, three supporting points, wrap up. It's not a bad way to make an argument. ⁓ Joel Schwartzberg: ⁓ good. Right. I agree, I agree. But all our members five. Bill five paragraphs. A plus. Yeah, and there's ⁓ there's a guy named ⁓ Professor Michael Alley. ⁓ he he's a professor in California. He's a professor of science communication. And one day, years ago, he got sick of all the PowerPoints he saw, which were all jargon, several charts, the audience Kristen Sweeney: That's funny. So yeah. Joel Schwartzberg: had the responsibility of making sense of it, not the presenter. And he began this campaign of training scientists on slide making, and he wrote a book about this, and he now he consults on it, and it's called The Assertion Evidence Principle. And he basically said on every slide, and I like to say this about points as well, there's an assertion And there is evidence. Make sure the first part is an assertion, not just a headline or a thought. An assertion, and I love that word. ⁓ and then the rest of the slide is evidence to prove or support that assertion. He made it really, really simple. And all of a sudden, as if by magic, all of his students and the people reading him are like, ⁓ yeah, all right. Slide got it. Slide got it. Point point point. And you know, there's more to it than that, as you and I know. But if it doesn't start there, if it starts out a mess, you gotta clean it. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Joel Schwartzberg: Before you can elevate it. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. I I wanna ask you about some examples specifically because I've heard you mention kind of like communication in meetings or email communication. We've touched on those areas lightly. And those are areas where I think up till now our conversation has focused more on kind of like a a messaging or present ⁓ presentation type examples. So can you walk me through maybe what are the the things someone might say Joel Schwartzberg: Yeah. Right. Public speaking, yeah. Kristen Sweeney: Apparently I really like the what is it not construction because I'm about to ask like what are the mistakes people might make or how are they communicating in a way that doesn't have a point and what can change ⁓ in those again like interpersonal communications with colleagues, with clients, that kind of thing. Joel Schwartzberg: Right. Yeah. I often say in my workshops, if there's one thing I want you to know, it's this. So let me give you those one things for both meetings and for emails. It's the number one ⁓ superstar thing I want people to take away. So with meetings, what do meetings always have, typically? An agenda. And we say, ⁓ you should have an agenda. Well there's gonna be an agenda. Someone's writing it up. But know that an agenda is like the table of contents in the front of a book. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, great. Joel Schwartzberg: It is a description of the inventory of that meeting, but not the points that need to be made. Now, whoever is creating the agenda is leading the meeting. Separate the points you want to make or the points you need to receive from the agenda. Because what's the agenda is going to be? A bunch of topics. And we've already discussed the limitation of topics. You know, we often say this, you often hear it like this: always know the objective of the meeting. What I'm saying is have an objective. Kristen Sweeney: Mm. ⁓ yeah. Sure. Joel Schwartzberg: for each of the points on the agenda. And if you're leading the meeting, surely there's some don't call me surely there's some points that you want to make at the start of the meeting. I want to commend everyone on the hard work we went through in last two weeks because it really made a difference here. See I'm using the X, Y there. Or we really need to make sure we have time for this particular point in the agenda because that's going to be all about how we're going to improve the process of onboarding. So you see how I'm making points that connect to the agenda than just having the agenda. Because if you just have the agenda, it's like, all right, right, all right, we covered it. Check it, check it off, check it off. But with points, that gets to the objective of the meeting. So bottom line, if you're running the meeting, and that's the person usually making the agenda, bring your points to the meeting and consider having an objective for each point in the agenda. And if you don't have an objective for a point in the agenda, at least put it to the bottom. So if you run out of time, you're putting the least important stuff at the bottom. I knew a teacher who had a very important meeting every two weeks. And that meeting was about talking about the hard cases, the kids who really needed the extra help were just not getting it and falling back. But you know what? We frontloaded the meeting with, hey, what'd you do this weekend? And can you believe the books we got this week? And ⁓ let's talk about the terrible trip we took last week. They ran out of time to talk about Kristen Sweeney: Mm. Joel Schwartzberg: the kids who needed extra help to catch up. And nothing is more important than that. But because they backloaded that, didn't prioritize, didn't consider the objective of not just the entire meeting, but the different parts that needed to be covered and then rank it accordingly, ⁓ that meeting was a failure. So that's the big point about meetings. With emails, it starts with the subject line. And I always start there. Because when you look at your inbox in the morning, and this is about points, here's the point. The Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Joel Schwartzberg: Person reading those things in their inbox is going to make three decisions. I'm going to read it now because I think it's urgent. I'm going to put it off. I'm going to archive it, or even worse, I'm going to delete it, maybe four decisions. All based on the subject line. So if you have an old thread that says something like re, we, re, re, re, re, re, re Wednesday, which was, by the way, four Wednesdays ago, you're probably going to deprioritize that. So what I like are subject lines that say things, if it's urgent, I put all caps urgent, colon. Kristen Sweeney: Ha ha ha. Joel Schwartzberg: meeting change, meeting time change. And I'll even put two, six, seven. You know, I'll try to get as much information into that subject line as I can. Now yes, I did say all caps urgent. I know we don't want to scream, but urgent is urgent. I gotta have people see that. As a writer Yeah. ⁓ I could I could six seven. All right. So ⁓ I put a lot as a writer and as a speech writer I often put four review all caps. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. You also did say six seven, which I refrained 'cause you know, I have school aged children, so Joel Schwartzberg: colon you know blog on XYZ. Basically what can you instruct your email reader in a way that has them prioritize it ⁓ appropriately. If you mess that up and you know the last thing I do in my email coaching is all right let's break out our phones. I know you never hear this in a workshop, but take out your phones, open up your email, look in your sent mail, and I want five people to tell me the terrible subject lines you used. And they're almost always re-re idea, re-re Thursday, re-re thing. ⁓ you know, sometimes they didn't like proposal. And, you know, you've been part of this and I've been part of this. You're in the middle of a thread and you have this breakthrough important idea. And you even say, Hal, you need to handle this. Sally, make sure you do that. And you add it to the thread and everyone gets the thread that says says re-re-re-re-idea. And Sally and Fred never see it. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Ha ha Joel Schwartzberg: ⁓ and people discard it because they think, that was only, you know, relevant to me three weeks ago. I mean you can kill your points if you hide them and bury them under a subject line that doesn't alert people to what they need to know. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to hear a little more about the you mentioned an interrupting example at the beginning of someone who feels like they're often interrupted during a meeting. And I'm sure there are maybe multiple dynamics at multiple levels going on there, but can you speak to it from the kind of communication perspective and as it ties into your work? Joel Schwartzberg: Yeah. I'm happy to answer that because someone asked me that and I don't just want to say, Good luck, here are the things not to do. Again, we're gonna break this rule about things not to do. But this is what happens. People beg, ⁓ come on, come on, ca wait, can you before you do that, can you please let me do my point? Or they get angry, hey, hey, hey, I just wanna finish my point. Or they swallow it. ⁓ and they never say their point and their point never sees the light of day. All of those are inappropriate and they just can't happen. So how do we make our point in a way that doesn't make people anxious or cause a scene? And th I didn't invent this. I saw this and I wish I could credit someone, but I've seen it a few times. But here's the thing. It starts with credit. ⁓ let's say Kristen, you interrupt me. ⁓ I let you finish to the earliest point that I can measure. So you finish a sentence or you just pause and I'll make Kristen, wow, that was a great idea. I'm gonna remember that. I'll follow up with you on that later. ⁓ what I wanted to make sure people understand is or I just wanted to finish my point that. But the beauty is in the compliment. Now, I may want to not want to compliment you. I may think what you did is rude, and in my head, I'm like thinking all these terrible things about you. But the moment I compliment you, that removes all of the awkwardness. That removes all of the antagonism. I'm basically saying, hey, thank you. That was interesting. Boom. You know, when people give you a counterpoint. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Joel Schwartzberg: They're not looking for agreement. They're not looking for you to change your mind. You probably won't. What they are looking for is acknowledgement. Even if you're on a panel and someone raises their hand and says, You're wrong, all they really want is for you to say, I hear you. ⁓ I understand that. I've heard that before. But I can't speak to that. What I can say is ⁓ but the beauty of it is the compliment, the acknowledgement. It really what do they say in police work? It de-escalates ⁓ the situation so that everyone moves on perfectly and people feel respected. And I thought, wow, that is beautiful. I think I might have even written an article about it. ⁓ so good. And so not only do I say that when people ask it, I just bring it up proactively because I know it happens. And it's it's just such a goodie. I love it. So I love sharing it. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. That acknowledgement piece, ⁓ honestly, as a personal lesson I've had to learn. I'm very much a problem solver and I can definitely be that person who's like, ⁓ you've complained about something? Well, what here are three sil potential solutions. Have you tried this and this? having kids really is has both forced me to adjust and and can frustrate me sometimes. ⁓ because you know, it'll be something like I I have a I have a ⁓ Joel Schwartzberg: Yeah, right. It's my advice. Kristen Sweeney: A mark and it's like a barely visible nothing, and there's really nothing to do, and there's no problem. And maybe in a more cynical way, I'd be like, What is your point? but the reality is maybe kids haven't, you know, read your book yet. So and so just going, you know, okay, yeah, I see I see that you have that, or trying to find a way to just acknowledge meant because Joel Schwartzberg: Yeah. ⁓ believe me. Kristen Sweeney: That is actually all they need. And they don't need me to solve a problem because there isn't one. but they do need some kind of attention and acknowledgement from me in that moment. And and letting that be enough ⁓ has been an important lesson for me to learn as a parent. Joel Schwartzberg: Yeah, me too. I wrote an article. This wasn't a headline, but it could have been. How to be ⁓ empathic when you're not empathic. And and some people just aren't ⁓ had an empathectomy, they just don't have empathy. ⁓ maybe they have other psychological issues. But anyway, everyone can say, ⁓ I hear you. Everyone can say, Tell me more about that. And everyone can say, Boy, that really sucks. And those are very powerful, albeit very short Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. Yeah. Joel Schwartzberg: phrases that anyone can adopt into their language to show the other person respect ⁓ for what they're going through. And all this gets into, you know, listening and responsive listening and active listening. You know, when you listen, you're not thinking, ⁓ what point am I going to make next? Or this is a good moment for me to check my email. No, you want to listen to learn. And that's a beautiful phrase also. Listen to learn. And that will enable you, especially even give you time to say those magic words. And let's go ahead and call them magic words. ⁓ I Hear you, tell me more. Boy that sucks. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, yeah. Because we in our professional lives can work on making points more effectively, but I think in our personal lives we need to give people the grace to be doing it imperfectly. Joel Schwartzberg: Absolutely. And you know, ⁓ I learned the labels for this recently, deductive and inductive thinking. The deductive person makes the point, boom, like me, and then supports it. The inductive thinker gives the reasoning first and then sort of I'm not gonna say meanders and sort of winds their way to the point. Now my wife isn't an inductive thinker and she's the teacher. I'm a deductive thinker. So I actually had to flex. Originally I thought, can't you just, you know. make your point just make yourself clear and I had to realize that she would but the way she trained her brain or the way her brain works is that she has to start with support and reason and then create that ladder to her point. She'll get to her point. It's not like she's not making a point. She's just doing it in the reverse order that I'm naturally used to saying it and hearing it. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, I believe I am the latter, like your wife. ⁓ context. That's like the whole I think if you're a big context person that you're likely more inductive. Joel, this has been fantastic. I want to make sure we have time to get to our lightning round of questions, but thank you for helping us all get better at making points. And my point right now is that I want to move us on to the last word. So every guest gets the same five questions to answer. Joel Schwartzberg: Context. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kristen Sweeney: We're just gonna go with your gut on these. Are you ready? All right. Question one what's your favorite word to say out loud? Joel Schwartzberg: I'm ready, hit me. Fortunately, there's something I say at the end of my workshops. And I say, I never ⁓ wish you luck. Because presentation success is not about luck. It's about tactics, it's about mindset. If you think the right things and do the right things, you will have impact. So, with that training and those understandings, I hope you're able to make your point, sharpen your points, and champion your point. And then I say, I want to put mustard on that word, champion, which I like saying and I like conveying because you're not just communicating your point. You're its cheerleader, you're its publicist. And we think of the word champion as a noun, but I love it as a verb you want to champion your ideas and even if you're ⁓ an introvert you can still champion your ideas with your language with your intention with your expression so I love that word ⁓ and I love to say it to people and I love to hear it too. Kristen Sweeney: Nice. Awesome. Question two. What's a word you might know from reading but you are not sure how to pronounce it? Joel Schwartzberg: Hmm. There was one I used recently with my kids and it was the word catastrophize and it's something my wife liked to use a lot too. I'd like to say catastrophe, and so I often say like, and you know, you'll ⁓ catastropheze it. And then I think, ⁓ it's catastrophize it. Kristen Sweeney: Ha ha. Joel Schwartzberg: Because I'm so focused on the word catastrophe. No one really says catastrophized, but it's such a cool word to say. ⁓ because we're so often causing the catastrophe. So that's the word I'm afraid to say sort of out loud, because I'm afraid I'll say I make up words all the time. Yeah. I sometimes use the word obstacular. That's not a real word. But I need a word that says when you create a barrier or when a barrier is formed, ⁓ you are being obstacular or that situation was obstacularized. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, yeah. It is a good word. You always gotta slow down when you say it. Wow, obstacularized. I love that. I think we can I think we can socialize it. I think we can get it get it out there. Obstacularize. All right. What's one phrase you're saying you wish could be retired for good? Joel Schwartzberg: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, let's make it a thing. A phrase I wish I could be retired for good. ⁓ you know, there are phrases that annoy us. But when I worked with the CEO, well there were two things he said that I'll go ahead and say it annoyed me. ⁓ one was he loved to say iterate. And maybe it's just me, but that's not what I consider a weekend word, a word I would say in conversation. And he liked to say it all the time. We're gonna take an iterative iterative approach to this. And there's some people in the organization of hundreds of people who are less who have ⁓ let's just say not as well developed a vocabulary as other people. So when you say let's take an iterative approach, why can't you just say let's take this step by step? And across the board, there are ways to reduce the complication and the complexity of our language. And people will say, ⁓ well, these are subject matter experts I'm talking to, so they understand it. But you know what? They will get it easier too. If you say it in a similar way. So I'll use the word iterative for that. But I'll say the other thing that really annoys me. When I first met him, he would like to say, Well, I'm gonna wing it. I'll just wing it. I know what I'm talking about. Lawyers say it all the time. You know, I know the subject inside and out. So I'm just gonna go to that conference and I'm just gonna wing it. That is always a recipe for disaster. ⁓ never wing it. That word, that phrase wing it is like nails on a chop chalkboard for me. Kristen Sweeney: I was just working on something with a client before a conversation, and the kind of the lesson was prepare, not because you can plan for everything, but because there's so much you can't plan for that you really ought to try to be prepared for the few things that might be in your control. So is that idea of like you could wing it, but there's already a lot of unknowns and It would be good to have a plan in place for at least some things. Joel Schwartzberg: Right. And that plan, by the way, should include pausing. Cause sometimes it's in here, but it takes a little while to travel to here. And your audience will forgive you by and large for pausing. No one will come back to you, Kristen, after a 60-minute keynote and be like, Kristen, you were great, but you paused too much. It just we don't remember the pauses. But pauses do this beautiful thing. They allow your brain to conceive the idea and then script your mouth to say it. But that will that beautiful process will only happen ⁓ if you pause. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah, I know I've talked about my kids a few times this episode, but ⁓ I have a three year old and so this is really apparent right now. Her her brain runs faster than her mouth does, and so you can really it's very visible in kids that age of that connection and and how it takes time, a little bit of time in there. Joel Schwartzberg: Right. Absolutely. And just I have a a student th also a third grader, she might be a fourth grader, who has the reverse actually. She thinks a lot, but then she comes out with something precise. And I had to tell her parents when I met with them after school, I said Something you should know about your daughter is that she takes a little extra time to conceive it, but she will say it. So try not to cut her off to complete her sentences for her, ⁓ which are bad habits by the way. Because you're impatient, she has it. Just give her the time to say it. And the more she works on that, that pause can be shorter, but it starts with allowing her to voice that opinion. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. What's a communication practice or principle that's non-negotiable for you? Joel Schwartzberg: Well, ⁓ I always come back to this. It's really about you have to have a real point. And you have to turn that topic into a point. Now that's me reiterating something I said, but there's something you always learn in media training, they say, and the last question is often, what's something you haven't said before ⁓ that you want to just end this with? And you think to yourself, all right, what's the 14th most important idea I have? And you know, by definition, that's not gonna be that important. Never be afraid to reinforce something. What do they say in advertising? You need to hear it seven times before you believe it or understand it. Kristen Sweeney: It's okay. ⁓ I think it's been updated now. It's more yeah. Mm-hmm. Joel Schwartzberg: Yeah. And today's day I think it's twenty five. So I'll just say, you know, know your point. And if you don't know it, it just takes a few seconds. Use the I believe that test, use the XY test, make sure it's not a truism, ⁓ and just you know, concretize it in your head as a point, and then you could go ahead and say it. Because if you don't, then you're just gonna have an exercise in ⁓ wordplay and in ⁓ you know grammar and just an exploration that will lead nowhere or at least nowhere quickly. Kristen Sweeney: Yeah. I love that. interestingly, you know, I talked about how I see this come up in our work as well. It just made me think when when the points are not clearly defined, articulated, or agreed on, kind of organizationally and aligned, ⁓ this is what I call comment wars. So your Google Doc is suddenly people talk having a conversation where they're trying to sort out like what do we actually believe about this as a company? ⁓ so Joel Schwartzberg: Mm-hmm. Kristen Sweeney: you know, having the point before you make the thing that is meant to express the point is also very powerful. Joel Schwartzberg: Yeah. And we'll one day we'll talk about emails, but the very last, perhaps the second most important thing people need to realize is an action step at the end. And this is where you're assigning people to do things. Mary, you're you'll check with legal, get back to us in two days, and we'll do this. Or if no one's to assign, assign yourself. All right, listen, I'm gonna talk about this with HR and by Tuesday I'll share their report. ⁓ that keeps it going. Kristen Sweeney: Keeps momentum. Yeah. Last question. What's the last thing you read, heard, or watched that really stuck with you? Joel Schwartzberg: Hmm. One of the things I like doing this is a little easier for me because one of the things I like doing with my kids in the after school program is showing them speeches that I think there's a lot to learn from in terms of the point and having them fill out worksheets about the ways that the communicator made that point. And the one I shared most recently was this Nigerian writer named, and I hope I get this right, ⁓ Chimamanda Ngozi Adichi, or it might be Adichi A. She's a Nigerian thought leader. She's written a lot of books. She's run some awards. She gave this amazing, I think it was a commencement speech that I shared. And she made this really interesting point about the difference between being nice and being kind. And she said we should stop being nice. And we should put emphasis on being kind. And one of the things she said was that when you're nice, that meant wanting to be liked. And when you were being kind, that's an action step ⁓ to demonstrate human consideration. But we always focus on be nice, be nice, I'm gonna be nice. That's often and she's right, I think. This is our response to show deference or respect to the speaker to do what they want us to do, ⁓ versus showing an act of human kindness. I just found it fascinating. And I listened to the whole thing and if the kids didn't get that point, I brought it out and we discussed it, 'cause I think that's one of the nice things to learn as a child. The diff and they can capture that. They know what nice means. They certainly know what kind means. And let's talk a little bit. Let me plant that seed of the difference. Kristen Sweeney: I love that. nice can sometimes lead to conflict aversion, right? And sometimes kindness is about saying difficult things or things that might be not well received, certainly in the moment. It's still gotta come from a positive place. But ⁓ yeah, I've thought about that distinction too. It's something we we again use with our kids. We we try to say kind more often than we say nice. So I love that. Yeah. All right. Joel Schwartzberg: Yeah, absolutely. Good, I love that. It starts there. Kristen Sweeney: Last question before we wrap up, Joel, if our listeners want to get more of your insights after listening to this excellent conversation, where can they go to find you? Joel Schwartzberg: They can go to my website. I think that's the best place. The IT people like when I say this. I consider my work open code. That is that all my articles, ⁓ all my podcasts, ⁓ and all my ideas really are on my website at www. Joel Schwartzberg.net, J O E L S C H W A R T Z B E R G. Whatever I are for Harvard Business Review or Inc. or Toastmaster magazine, they're all linked there and the headlines are all very intuitive. If you talk too quickly, if you have a problem with authenticity, just look it up like a library, ⁓ and you'll find it there. And of course you could learn more about the book, which is get to the point. I'm gonna show it if you don't mind. ⁓ Kristen Sweeney: Absolutely. Joel Schwartzberg: and find out where to buy it and read some of the testimonials for the workshop and testimonials for the book. Kristen Sweeney: Awesome. Thank you so much for joining me today, Joel. Really appreciate the conversation. Joel Schwartzberg: It was a lot of fun, Kristen. Thanks for having me.