Latest / Legal Late Night / Landing Legal Speaking Gigs and Build Domain Authority | MCLE New England

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Landing Legal Speaking Gigs and Build Domain Authority | MCLE New England · Legal Late Night

• Jared Correia (00:00:00): Hello everybody. We've got a show that promises to be at least mildly interesting for your listening and watching Enjoyment. We're partnering with MCLE New England, an independent CLE provider to deliver this very special episode about how to get selected for speaking engagements as a lawyer. Every attorney knows that speaking gigs are a great way to generate domain authority and referrals. So we'll talk to MCLE's Bruce Richard about how he selects speakers and then four regular MCLE presenters who provide their best tips for getting chosen as a speaker while battling for a chance to face Bruce in the ultimate counter program one-on-one how broke am I? (00:00:46): Welcome in everyone. Bruce Richard of MCLE New England. We have a special podcast episode for you today. So basically what we're going to do is interview several regular speakers at MCLE who all will have tips for you about how to get speaking engagements as an attorney. So Bruce, I would like to thank you for helping out with this. I really appreciate it. You organized the whole thing, got everybody involved. One thing I want to ask you as somebody who works with an organization that provides CLE for lawyers, are you open to people reaching out to you, suggesting programs? Do you want that? And if so, what's the best way for people to do that? Bruce Richard (00:01:29): So that is the best way. Last year we had about 360 programs last year. So if you come to me with a program idea and it's something that we haven't done, there's a very good chance I am going to jump all over that because we're always looking for program ideas. The best way, contact me. Jared Correia (00:01:50): Email Bruce everyone. Bruce Richard (00:01:51): Yeah. Jared Correia (00:01:52): Quite literally. Give your Bruce Richard (00:01:53): Email out. Yes. What's that? Jared Correia (00:01:55): Give your email out. Go ahead. Tell the people. Bruce Richard (00:01:57): It's brichard@mcle.org. That's b-richard for all of us who speak only English@mcle.org. So it's pretty straightforward. Jared Correia (00:02:09): Yeah, seriously. Thanks for doing this. And I would suspect that a lot of folks in your position throughout the country would have the same sentiment that the idea is like, send me your stuff. Bruce Richard (00:02:18): Yeah, definitely. Obviously if you're not New England based, reach out to whoever is your local. They will be happy to hear from you. Suggest your idea and run from there. So many folks are looking for program content. It's all over. So they'll be happy to hear from you. Jared Correia (00:02:43): And so my last question for you as a Canadian fan randomly living in Boston, what are your feelings on the Quebec Nordikes? Bruce Richard (00:02:54): Montreal beat them up pretty badly all the way through the 80s and 90s. And then they left and they took Montreal's best player and then they won a bunch of Stanley Cups playing in Colorado and now they're still good and Montreal still sucks. Jared Correia (00:03:10): I was going to say, do you even care because they're now the avalanche? Bruce Richard (00:03:14): Not so much. I like when the avalanche do their... They'll do the occasional third jersey with the Nordics logo and it tends to be a little more purple than the old style powder blue that the Nordics had. Jared Correia (00:03:26): I love the powder blue. Love the powder blue. I Bruce Richard (00:03:29): Love the powder blue. It was a nice look and it always made Montreal look like a much tougher team when they roll in wearing their Montreal red and they're facing a team that's wearing powder blue. I mean, come on. Jared Correia (00:03:44): The old hockey logos, I always find funny because they're like shape hockey stick. Yeah, let's go with that. I don't even know what an ordeak is. So I'm struggling here. Does anyone? Do you? Bruce Richard (00:03:59): Just northerner basically. Northerner and French or French Canadian, I guess. Jared Correia (00:04:05): Bruce, thank you. I've learned a lot about ice hockey as well as presentations for legal organizations. Please everyone stay tuned as we talk to some of Bruce's top picks for attorneys who are great at speaking engagements and who can tell you how to get your own. All right. We've got someone new coming into the show for the first time ever. (00:04:30): It's Tori Santoro. How are you? Very Victoria Santoro (00:04:33): Happy to be here. I'm so good, Jared. Thank you for having me on the show. Jared Correia (00:04:37): My pleasure. Okay, so people know who you are. Can you tell people what you're up to and just introduce yourself and where they can find you and your law practice, et cetera? Victoria Santoro (00:04:47): Sure. I am Victoria Santoro. I am the co-founder of my own firm now very happily called Santoro & Gray. We handle all types of personal injury with focus on rideshare cases, heavy trucking cases, products, liability and the like. I am also the immediate past president of the Massachusetts Bar Association and kind of a longtime devotee of bar associations and CLEs, which is what we're here to talk about. Jared Correia (00:05:18): Very accomplished. No, I would say so. That's impressive. Victoria Santoro (00:05:22): I'm very tired. Jared Correia (00:05:24): Yeah, I'm sure. Well, congrats on launching your own firm. That's not easy to do. It sounds like it's going really well though. Victoria Santoro (00:05:31): I'm so excited. We are just about to celebrate our two-year anniversary and I'm just so happy to be here. Jared Correia (00:05:39): How was the bar presidency thing? Because I have a lot of people who reach out to me and they're like, "Should I do the leadership to get into that type of role?" It's a lot of work, isn't it, when you get there? Victoria Santoro (00:05:53): Yeah. Yeah. So it's a great question and I'm glad people ask it of themselves because I'm not sure I asked myself that question when I first started. Jared Correia (00:06:03): In retrospect. Victoria Santoro (00:06:05): Yeah. I mean, I grew up at a law firm where there were a lot of people who had been involved in bar associations and it was a bit of an expectation. And I'm grateful for that because the expectation was get involved in your community and see what you can do out there. And I did it. And I'm so happy that I did it, but then you start on the leadership track and the responsibilities grow every year and it (00:06:31): Is fantastic. But for me in my own life, it happened to coincide. We opened the law firm in May of 2024 and I was ascending into the presidency of the bar a couple months later because the bar - That's a lot to take on. Yeah. The bar calendar goes September to September. So my law partner, Jess Gray, has been for many, many years very well aware of my bar association involvement. We knew that this was going to be difficult to cover all of the bases. So we absolutely went into it eyes wide open and you just white knuckle through that year because the bar was taking the majority of my time. Jared Correia (00:07:19): Yeah. I don't think people realize how much time and effort it takes for that year to do it. It's crazy. Victoria Santoro (00:07:25): Yeah. Just for that year. There's a bit of a lead up to it. So you're mentally and emotionally prepared, but living the practicalities of it day to day while you're starting a business. It was such a challenge, not just for me, for both of us, for our other partner, Brad, for our staff, for everybody. Jared Correia (00:07:44): Kudos to you, Jess and Brad. We see you. Victoria Santoro (00:07:48): I know, seriously. Jared Correia (00:07:50): So we've known each other for a while. Long time. And one of the things I though was really interesting is when you started practicing law, you weren't like one of these associates who's like, "I'm just going to grind and do my thing and I'll let the law firm take care of marketing me, " because that's not something that really happens.You built up this whole persona around yourself called the limber lawyer. And I feel like that's really how you energized your marketing base. So can you talk about why and how you did that? Victoria Santoro (00:08:18): Gosh, Jared, yes. I'm sorry. Jared Correia (00:08:21): I know we're going way back in the day. Victoria Santoro (00:08:24): Well, I'm thinking back to then. You're Jared Correia (00:08:25): Like, "I forgot I even did that Victoria Santoro (00:08:29): Shit." That was 15 years ago. And one of the things in a smaller law firm is you have to become indispensable and you have to work on business development. It is not just going to happen. And the older that you get, the more expensive you become and your job can become less secure unless you're bringing in the business. Way back then, starting a blog and kind of putting yourself out there was not something that lawyers did, butI just kind of went ahead and did it. That is something that I can say I didn't necessarily go in eyes wide open. It's so public. I have a much different perspective now on social media because everything has exploded. Everything is so different. Jared Correia (00:09:23): And it's also like a different world now, like 10, 15 years later. Yeah. Victoria Santoro (00:09:27): Yeah. Different world. But anyway, to get back to the point, yes, I did it. And I was sharing my thoughts and reflections, not just on law, but just on life. I put myself out there and that was the thing that got a lot of attention. And then I got other writing opportunities from it and I got asked to speak at conferences and flown to Las Vegas and all this stuff happened that God at the time I was like 27 years old and it was so exciting for me. And what (00:10:00): The real challenge for me at that point was then to kind of turn it into my referral base in Massachusetts and kind of keep it focused on what I'm doing here. Not just talking about myself and navel gazing, but to try and really kind of turn that into what's your business? What do you love to do? What do you want to do long term? And make sure the people in Massachusetts know me for those things. Jared Correia (00:10:26): It was very authentic and I think that stuff still works even though it's a more crowded space right now. And I think it was really impressive that you were able to do that at that age as well. Victoria Santoro (00:10:39): Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. It was really fun. Jared Correia (00:10:42): So now I want to ask you, so you're in the space, you've been working in law for a while, you are active with bar associations, you now run your own firm. I think a lot of lawyers are out there thinking like, "Okay, how can I get speaking engagements?" So I'm interested to know, what are your tips on that front? If somebody's looking to do that and they haven't been able to quite cross that threshold yet, what do you do? Victoria Santoro (00:11:07): Yeah. The bar associations are the most obvious place to begin because there are so many willing people who want you to be involved because they're volunteer organizations. So any sort of volunteer organization is looking for people who want to be involved. And so it's a wonderful way. Jared Correia (00:11:27): Please help us. Victoria Santoro (00:11:29): Yeah. I mean, because of course. And what a wonderful way to A, get in front of people and B, network with either other people in your practice area or in related kind of neighbor adjacent practice areas as well. To me, that's the most obvious place to begin. I think part of the reason that I'm giving you that answer is also because that's how this began for me. Jared Correia (00:11:57): It makes sense. Victoria Santoro (00:11:59): Yeah. I joined the small firm section council and was quiet as a mouse probably for the first year that I was there. But eventually you do a project with people, you make some friends, you start going to all the events. And without a doubt, inevitably, somebody will ask you to do something at the Bar Association. (00:12:19): So, you can put on a CLE there and inevitably it just takes on a life of its own and kind of grows from that. Jared Correia (00:12:28): Kind of builds on itself. Victoria Santoro (00:12:29): It does. And so there's that pond that you're in the bar association. Other bar associations are seeing that. MCLE is seeing that. Podcasters are seeing that. Oh Jared Correia (00:12:43): Yeah. If you want to talk about things people have been doing for a long time. So start with the bars, get invited to some programming at the Bar Association, and then once you're out there, people will start inviting you to do other things. Victoria Santoro (00:12:58): I think that's the trick personally. Jared Correia (00:13:01): Okay. All right. Well, we're done here. Okay. So I got one more question for you. We always run a third segment on this podcast, which often includes trivia, but we have multiple guests for this episode. And so I need to find a way to select the person who's going to participate in that last segment. I'm not sure if that's actually a prize, but so I'm going to ask everybody including you the same question and the best answer gets to move on. If you could design the perfect snow globe, what would be inside of it? Good. I picked a challenging question. Victoria Santoro (00:13:37): If I could make the perfect snow globe - Jared Correia (00:13:39): Remember, you're competing with others. So give me your finest answer. Victoria Santoro (00:13:43): Just to be clear, I don't have to live inside the snow globe, right? It's just for something. Jared Correia (00:13:48): I mean, you could if you wanted to. We could go in that direction, explore the studio space. This turned into Black Mirror all of a sudden. Victoria Santoro (00:13:54): Yeah. I'm like, what do I want in my snow globe habitat? Jared Correia (00:13:58): I mean, if you want to live in the snow globe, there could be extra points for that. So go to town. Victoria Santoro (00:14:05): Although this defies the name of a snow globe, but my mind immediately went actually to an under the sea theme. I'm thinking in my snow globe. Little mermaid. I don't want it to be a snow globe. I want there to be an octopus in there and a finding Nemo and an anemone. Jared Correia (00:14:22): This is good. Victoria Santoro (00:14:23): And I want the swirling stuff to not be snow. I want it to be sand. So we've got a beach globe. Jared Correia (00:14:29): Oh, this is great. This is the first interview we're doing. I don't know if anybody can beat that. Tori, you also have a drink with you. It's exciting. Victoria Santoro (00:14:41): I brought my favorite white wine. I'm not a wine snob. I don't know anything about wine. I just drink it. I don't drink. Jared Correia (00:14:52): I feel like if you weren't a wine snob, that would be coming out of a box. Victoria Santoro (00:14:58): It was out of a bottle, but it was a twist cap. I will have you know. Jared Correia (00:15:03): That is perfect right in the middle. All right. So what is your favorite white wine? I'm interested to know. Victoria Santoro (00:15:08): Okay. This is a Sauvignon Blanc. I think it's like a Justin or something. Jared Correia (00:15:13): Justin. Victoria Santoro (00:15:14): I have no idea. Jared Correia (00:15:14): That's a Victoria Santoro (00:15:15): Label. Yeah. Jared Correia (00:15:17): Okay. I don't know anything about wine at all. Victoria Santoro (00:15:21): Manly white wine. There's no pitch for wine that is a good thing because cocktails are fun. They are complex. They're lower in sugar, some of them. It's interesting. People can talk about their cocktails all the time. Wine makes you feel horrible. It has high sugar content and white wine is like the most basic drink on earth. And yet here I am. Jared Correia (00:15:46): You're not really selling it. Victoria Santoro (00:15:50): But I love it. But I love it. Jared Correia (00:15:54): All right. So we have drink number one is Justin white wine. Great job with your wine, Justin. Victoria Santoro (00:16:06): Thank you, Justin. Whoever you are. Jared Correia (00:16:10): Any other comments about how terrible wine is before we finish up? How Victoria Santoro (00:16:13): Terrible wine is for you. But listen, on the way down, it's excellent. Thank Jared Correia (00:16:19): You for coming on. This is great. We may see you again. Tori Santoro is making moves, but will it be enough to clench her spot in the counter program? We've got three more contestants to go. Can one of them break Tori's early lead? Hey Peter, thanks for coming in today. It's really nice to meet you. Pete Jamieson (00:16:40): Jared, same here. Thanks for having me. Jared Correia (00:16:43): This is our first time ever talking other than emailing. And you're a Massachusetts guy. We live relatively close to each other. Can you tell people a little bit about yourself? What do you do? Where do you work? Think of thing. Sure. Pete Jamieson (00:16:57): Yeah. Yeah. But my name's Pete Jamieson. I'm a partner at my law firm, Hastings, Jamieson Lipschutz Family Law Group. And all I do all day long is domestic relations law for really, really complex matters, whether that be custody or more typically what I do is more asset division, income definition, tax analysis, sort of things that are pretty complex for high net worth earners is what I typically do. Jared Correia (00:17:30): How'd you fall into that? Because my understanding is that lawyers do not like math. Are you like the rare lawyer who does? Pete Jamieson (00:17:38): This is a great story because well, first off, I made a decision in my eighth grade algebra class that I would become a lawyer because I thought there was no - We're going way back. Yeah. I physically remember the moment. I was like, "I hate algebra. I'm going to be a lawyer. All I had to do is argue." And then skip to 20, 25 years later, I'm working on an algorithm, an algebraic formula for someone that my client lived in Japan. I need to come up with an order in Massachusetts equating tax analyses and income and all this other stuff. And I go, "Oh my God, I'm doing math." And I was actually enjoying it. So I wrote an email to my... I still kept in touch with my ninth and 10th grade math teacher from Palm Harbor, Florida, Mrs. Linder. And I sent her an email and I said, "Listen, I'm sorry that I was a punk kid sitting in the back with my Rage Against the Machine T-shirt saying this all sucked. (00:18:39): But I do need math. I love math. I can't believe it. " And she read it to her class. Oh, that's awesome. And said that was as meaningful as ever and that she loves getting letters like that. But the age of how I fell into this is that I was gophering. I was not interning. I was just a mail room clerk after I graduated high school. No, undergrad at Florida State and I got sent to drop some things off for other people doing MCLEs in Florida's version. And they told me I could wander around and go watch anything. And I watched a bunch of family law programs and I was like, "Well, this is way more interesting than commercial real estate," which is what my firm was doing. And I was like, "Well, this is what I want to do. This sounds a lot better." Jared Correia (00:19:25): It's funny, I always joked with people about no one is in eighth grade, I want to be a lawyer. But you were. You were the one guy. And then your origin story is kind of like better call Saul. You're in the mail room coming up through the ranks. That's tremendous. Yeah, Pete Jamieson (00:19:41): In the mail room. Then I went to law school and then I bounced around, but I started doing personal injury after my first year of law school because just you take any job you could get at that point. And then luckily enough, I got picked to be a student attorney for legal services and did that. And that was basically a dream job because you got clients that wanted to go through this process, needed representation, and you represent the good guys for the most part. Jared Correia (00:20:09): How did you get from Florida to Massachusetts? Pete Jamieson (00:20:15): Usually Jared Correia (00:20:16): People do the reverse. Oh Pete Jamieson (00:20:17): Yeah. Well, so I was born in Philadelphia. I have very dear friends that I love in Florida. I never assimilated properly to Florida. I moved down there when I was eight. And the only reason I stayed in Florida for undergrad is because Florida had a great program for people that are kids that have a certain GPA and a certain SAT scores. So you got to go to school for free. And my old ma, got your tuition paid. My old man had just got done paying for my sister to go through four years at RISD, Rhode Island School of Design at 40 grand a year, which back then still now it's still a lot of money. And he got wind of that and he kind of pulled me aside and he said, "Listen Jared Correia (00:20:58): Kid." It's Pete Jamieson (00:20:59): Like Jared Correia (00:20:59): He's FSU for you, pal. Pete Jamieson (00:21:01): He's like, "Do your old man a favor. It's going to be fun. I promise you, you'll have a good time. We'll pay for study abroad." And I was like, "All right, pop. Yeah, that's a deal." Jared Correia (00:21:12): That's funny. Okay. So one of the reasons we wanted to have you on is you do a lot of speaking gigs for MCLE, which is a local New England-based organization. And I wanted to get some thoughts on lawyers out there looking to get speaking engagements. Sure. How do you do it? What are some of your best tips for getting noticed and getting picked to do those types of things? Pete Jamieson (00:21:35): Yeah. So I started thinking about this in the origin story, because I do probably three or four speaking engagements a year, not only for MCLE, but also the Boston Bar Association, the Mass Bar Association and other bar associations around what we call the Commonwealth. For me, it started with the work. I actually was big into trial practice and oral argument in law school. So I did that and that translated into having a good courtroom presence. So you weren't just standing up there kind of like a shrinking violet, not knowing what to say. And I just sort of had that bone built into me. I also came from, again, in high school, performing arts background along with - Oh, interesting. (00:22:22): So there's a competition and an argument and a bit of me that likes presenting. And so that kind of showed through in my presentation when I was in private practice, still in private practice, but just sort of getting up and being okay on my feet. So that translated that. Then also I was lucky enough that I got asked to be part of some bar associations like the Boston Bar Association and a few other ones. And through that, just speaking engagements just are there like, "We need someone to talk about this. We heard about this. C someone speak about that? " And my first real big... I mean, I did a couple little things called brown bags with the bar associates. Yeah, like Jared Correia (00:23:01): Lunchtime Pete Jamieson (00:23:02): Type Jared Correia (00:23:02): Of things. Yeah. Pete Jamieson (00:23:03): And those are great. Those are just you're dispelling your thoughts, but it's not like - That's Jared Correia (00:23:07): Kind of like the off-Broadway version of Pete Jamieson (00:23:08): Speaking Jared Correia (00:23:09): Engagements. Pete Jamieson (00:23:14): At least the way we practiced it or did it was stuff for folks that were just coming out of law school that needed to know how to do an affidavit or a motion, which you could do in your sleep. My first real big, getting into advanced topics was I was lucky enough that my partner was involved in the Mass Bar Association and every year they have their big family law conference on Cape Cod. And I got invited to speak about contempt actions and all the various permutations of that. And it was nerve-wracking. I think I was five years into my practice. And when you go into any big conference like this, there's a massive amount of state troopers outside because there's so many judges and you're sort of like, oh my, am I speaking to the UN? Jared Correia (00:24:01): They got me. Pete Jamieson (00:24:04): So I remember I was actually flying somewhere and I had started working on the program and I talked to the head of the program, the chair, and I said, "Listen, just so you know, we haven't worked together. And my vibe is that I make things entertaining and interesting so we might go a little bit off the path here." And she said, "Okay, that's great. I don't like talking heads either." So I said, "Okay." And what I did was I incorporated GIFs into my presentation. Oh, Jared Correia (00:24:30): Nice. Pete Jamieson (00:24:30): Yeah. It was great because the judges were in front of the screen (00:24:34): That were on the panel and they didn't know what was going on behind them. And our program was like contempts, which is kind of like, it's not a feel good thing, but it's not going to drag you down. And right after our program on that one was a program like hearsay abuse allegations by minors. So not exactly - Stimulating topic. Yeah. Well, I mean, sure it's stimulating, but it was like, okay, yeah, tough slog. So I said, "Look, folks, I know we got some tough programs coming our way, but I'm going to leave you with this. Here's a gift of Channing Tatum and a puppy." And it was a puppy kissing Channing Tatum. And Channing Tatum was in a tank top and I just let that one play and walked off. And that kind of set the tone for what I do on these programs now. Jared Correia (00:25:24): No doubt the most memorable program of the day. Pete Jamieson (00:25:27): That's good Jared Correia (00:25:27): Advice though. Make it interesting. A lot of people don't. Text-based PowerPoints that I am going to read to the audience for 60 minutes. How many times do you see that? Pete Jamieson (00:25:38): Oh yeah. And with all due respect, a lot of times our elder statesmen and elder states people kind of think they can just wing it and go on there and like, "Well, I could talk about this war story or that one." I just make it a point that, and this is how I think I get asked back for more, is that I have a personality when I'm up there, when I'm on the dais or doing whatever. I try to make it engaging so it's not just throwing out values or young versus young says this, or this is burnier. Jared Correia (00:26:09): And Pete Jamieson (00:26:09): Then I try to leave people with something, whether it's a PDF or an analysis or a handout. Jared Correia (00:26:14): That's awesome. Great suggestions. Now, Peter, as I was saying beforehand, we always run a third segment on this podcast, which often includes trivia. We have multiple guests on this episode, so I need to find a way to select the person who participate in that segment. I'm not sure if there's even a prize, but I am going to ask everyone the same question and the best answer moves on. Are you ready for your question? Hit me. If you could design the perfect snow globe, what would be inside of it? (00:26:44): That's such a good question. (00:26:50): Thank you. We try. Pete Jamieson (00:26:52): Perfect snow globe. Jared Correia (00:26:54): Take this anywhere you'd like. Pete Jamieson (00:26:58): Okay. All right. So I would say I'm a huge arcane movie reference guy. Oh, Jared Correia (00:27:08): Great. Let's do it. Yes. Pete Jamieson (00:27:10): I've got my wall of physical media, which my wife is like, "Why do you still own that? We're the streaming look." I would probably go with... I'm a big campy guy, so I'd probably go with 1980s unheralded action movies. Oh, Jared Correia (00:27:34): Wow. Pete Jamieson (00:27:34): Okay. Not only just the commandos and the predators of it all, but if we go a couple levels down, and I'm not even talking like Doff Lungren, I'm going way below. Brian, the Bos Bosworth. He did a movie with Lance Henriksen, which is - Stone Jared Correia (00:27:54): Cold, right? Pete Jamieson (00:27:54): That's right. That's right. Amazing. There's another movie that actually is from Florida and it's going to bother me and I'll think of it as soon as we're done. It's about a band that... It actually was filmed out of University of Central Florida. It's about a band of Thai fighter extraordinaires who are just best friends, but they also get into amazing fights. I would put that one in there. So I go layered and so some easy to spot ones, but also with that. And because we're bringing up the 80s, I mean, Snow Globe, I mean, this is not that far of a walk for that conversation. Jared Correia (00:28:32): That was great. Tremendous answer. I'm going to have a hard time choosing actually. Pete Jamieson (00:28:36): I Jared Correia (00:28:36): Wasn't expecting a Brian Bosworth reference on the pod today. Pete Jamieson (00:28:40): No one expects one, but when you get it, you're grateful for it. Jared Correia (00:28:44): Okay. Last question for you. I appreciate you taking all this time with us. We asked you to bring in an alcoholic beverage of Pete Jamieson (00:28:51): Choice. Sure. Jared Correia (00:28:53): What Pete Jamieson (00:28:53): Do you have for us? It would be this. I used to bartend. I used to wait tables back in the day. My go - to is an old-fashioned, and it's not an old-fashioned, it's an old, old-fashioned. People who muddle are silly, in my opinion. All you're doing is ruin - Jared Correia (00:29:11): You got takes for days, Peter. Pete Jamieson (00:29:13): This is great. I do. So very simple. It's a rock's glass, of course. I'm not going to be drinking because I have to drive today, but one sugar can - For Jared Correia (00:29:23): Display purposes only, I think Pete Jamieson (00:29:24): You said. T's right. That's right. You get the ear it is. It's nice in a nice amber brownish color. Jared Correia (00:29:30): Can I ask you some dumb questions? Pete Jamieson (00:29:33): Yeah. Jared Correia (00:29:33): What is muddling? Pete Jamieson (00:29:35): So muddling is where you take a whole bunch of fruits and you use a muddler. It looks like a baton and you sort of jam it down in there and you create this mud of fruit. And then you add that into, if people really want what they call an old-fashioned, you add that into the booze. I choose to go with an old old-fashioned, which is just sugar, bitters, water, and booze. I That's my take. Sometimes if I've got my particularly fancy pants on, I'll go with an orange peel as I did today. Again, it's not really noticeable, but it is in there. I do have an orange peel in there and go around the lip of the cup. I also prefer, I don't like a lot of ice cubes in my old fashioned. I like a big ice cube, so that means you got to antie up for the 11.99. (00:30:26): You need Jared Correia (00:30:27): An ice cube maker to do that, right? Pete Jamieson (00:30:29): Oh no, you get an 11.99 silicone ice cube tray from Amazon. It's here tomorrow via Prime. So highly recommend. This is my go - to. And the key on this one is that when you break up the sugar cubed, I don't use a simple syrup. I think that's an easy way out. But you break up the sugar cube and then when it's mixed in there, you spin it around with the water and it gets up on the sides. And so that's how you know you've done it right. Yeah. Jared Correia (00:30:57): Tremendous. That was great. Amazing work. On Pete Jamieson (00:31:03): All Jared Correia (00:31:04): Levels. Pete Jamieson (00:31:07): I have a strange, strange memory of pop culture and drink references. That's all I got. Jared Correia (00:31:13): We got '80s action movies. We got old fashions. We got speaking tips. Thank you. Really appreciate it. Pete Jamieson (00:31:20): This is mirroring more and more what I bring to a CLE, except without the booze. So there you go. Jared Correia (00:31:26): Oh, not yet at least. Thanks for coming on. Have a great rest of your day. Pete Jamieson (00:31:30): With a pleasure. Thanks for having me. All right? Jared Correia (00:31:33): Will Peter Jameson's love of 1980s action films be enough to take him over the top, especially with two contenders remaining? Let's take a break and then we'll increase our collection of snow globes. Look who we got everybody. It's Gabriel Cheong. Oh my God. It's been years, Gabriel Cheong (00:31:54): Hasn't Jared Correia (00:31:54): It? Gabriel Cheong (00:31:55): I have not shown my face for I feel like a very long time. It is true. I Jared Correia (00:32:00): Feel like we haven't spoken for far too long, so it's good to be back in touch. Gabriel Cheong (00:32:05): Yeah. We haven't spoken because I've sort of been out of the realm in which you and I usually speak in the past, which is really about technology and law practice management. Jared Correia (00:32:13): Right. So you've kind of receded a little bit from the public spotlight, but we'll bring you back. Gabriel Cheong (00:32:20): I've changed topics. I've changed topics. That's what it is. Jared Correia (00:32:24): Wow. Okay. So tell people who you are because I know you, but the audience may not know you and then we'll talk a little bit about that. Gabriel Cheong (00:32:31): Sure. So I'm Gabriel Chung. I'm a practicing attorney here in Massachusetts, mainly in the South Shore. I do family law, divorces, custody, a lot of prenups. That's all I do. And I've been doing this for, I think this is coming up my 20th year now. Jared Correia (00:32:49): Wow. Congrats. Gabriel Cheong (00:32:51): I've known you Jared Correia (00:32:51): For 20 Gabriel Cheong (00:32:52): Years. Jared Correia (00:32:53): I know. It's wild, isn't it? Time flies. All right. So what are you talking about now if you're not doing legal tech management stuff? What are you focused on? Gabriel Cheong (00:33:03): Well, a lot more substantive law. Jared Correia (00:33:06): Oh, interesting. So Gabriel Cheong (00:33:09): I've been doing that with MCLE more with talking about family and divorce practice, stuff like that. But also I've been sort of in the background because I sit on the board of trustees for MCLE. And so I'm sort of helping to arrange direction forward for the organization, not so much in front of the camera as it is behind the camera. Jared Correia (00:33:33): That's cool. It sounds like you like it at least because you're doing it. I like Gabriel Cheong (00:33:36): It. I like it. It's different. I think back in the day when you and I used to talk a lot, we used to do it a lot with the MBA. We used to have a lot of - Jared Correia (00:33:44): Yeah, Massachusetts Bar Association. Gabriel Cheong (00:33:46): Yep. We used to do a lot of programs with the Massachusetts Bar Association, with the Boston Bar Association, talking about law practice management, starting out and stuff like that. So less of that now for me. Jared Correia (00:33:56): You've had a pretty interesting legal career.You've been fairly innovative on a number of fronts. So you acquired a law practice, right? Can you talk a little bit about that? Gabriel Cheong (00:34:09): Yeah. So I started straight out of law school, so I never really worked for anybody. And a couple of years in after I started my law practice, one of the law practices that I interned for when I was in law school, she decided to close down and move to California. So I said, "You know what? Let me just take over your law practice." So I bought out her law practice. She at the time did a lot more than I did now. She did a lot of real estate and stuff like that. And I basically stripped it all down and I built Infinity Law Group into just a family law practice. And yeah, when you and I used to speak a lot, I was very young. Oh my God, I was 20 years ago. Me Jared Correia (00:34:55): Too. We Gabriel Cheong (00:34:55): Were both spring chickens back then. So yeah, I spoke a lot about technology and law practice management because I feel like 20 years ago was when that technology and law practice management and those type of innovations were just starting to bud. Jared Correia (00:35:11): Yeah. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I didn't even mention the brand name, but that was another thing you did before a lot of other attorneys got into it. Gabriel Cheong (00:35:20): Yeah. And the reason I did that was because I had my mindset on retirement, which is I wanted an asset Jared Correia (00:35:26): That I Gabriel Cheong (00:35:26): Could sell. Jared Correia (00:35:28): Very smart. The other thing you do, which I think is interesting, which still not a lot of attorneys do, is that you have a fee calculator on your site. So tell people a little bit about that because it's funny. We're talking about a shit you did like 20 years ago and it's still in the vanguard for law practice. Gabriel Cheong (00:35:48): I've been doing a lot more stuff now. So it's just that I don't... Again, it's more towards just the family law stuff now. But yeah, I mean, when I first started, I always hated the billable hour model. And I think it was about 20 years ago that that sort of shift started happening with the legal community where people started doing a lot more work from home stuff, starting hanging out with a shingle for a little bit cheaper, doing paperless offices. Why? It's because it was cheaper. And so my idea at the time was let's be transparent about your legal fees. And I put my whole legal fee structure on my website so people can calculate things. And I offered, I think I'm still the only law firm that does it, which is I will offer people fixed fee divorce litigation. Right? Jared Correia (00:36:34): Yeah. The rarest of the rare pricing models. Gabriel Cheong (00:36:39): Yeah. So I still have a whole system on that. I've been doing it for... We change it around every single year just to make sure that we keep up with the time. So that's been going on for about 15 years now. And recently, the past couple of years, I pushed out an app for my firm. So now I think my firm is the only ap in Massachusetts that will do your child support guidelines, your alimony guidelines. And this new thing that they have called the Kavanaugh calculation, which has to do with taxes and divorce, no one else does that. Jared Correia (00:37:07): Interesting. Now people can access that at your website or is that like a downloadable thing? Gabriel Cheong (00:37:12): They can download it off my website. It's available for Apple. It's available for the Google store. And it's geared towards mainly atorneys and judges, Jared Correia (00:37:20): Honestly. Oh, gotcha. Okay. Gabriel Cheong (00:37:21): Because the basic version is just the child support and alimony and you can download that and it's basically free. It's a one-time kind of thing people use, but the tax calculation is very, very complex. And that's the thing that attorneys I think and judges can use on the fly. And so I charge for that. I upcharge for that. It's 99 cents a month for $10 a year. So that's my retirement fund. Jared Correia (00:37:45): Reasonable. Reasonable prices though. Last thing I wanted to ask you about in terms of your practice work. I don't think you're involved anymore, but you can correct me if I'm wrong. You were heavily involved in an organization called Starting Out Solo, which I always thought was a really interesting organization. Lawyers leaving law practice to start law firms directly. Do you want to talk a little bit about that and then we'll get into some other stuff? Gabriel Cheong (00:38:11): I still do. I'm still on the board of that organization, but I've taken a step back because now I have the leadership there. I'll let them be officers, but I'm still on the board doing stuff for them behind the scenes because I've been on the organization for 20 years now. You got to start propping up newer members to take the lead. But yeah, it's the only bar association here that really help law students start their law practice straight out of law school. And it's just that, you know what it is? It's a safe space. It's a safe space for them to ask what they seemingly other people would think are dumb questions. Jared Correia (00:38:46): It's hard to start a business. Gabriel Cheong (00:38:49): Yeah. And you don't want to go to your bar association and the seasoned attorneys and ask them seemingly dumb questions like, what's an ILTA account? Or how do you do engagement letters? Or what if somebody asked me this and that? But you can ask it in our forum because everybody has been there before. So there's no shyness and I like that. Jared Correia (00:39:10): That's really cool. Gabriel Cheong (00:39:11): Still going strong. Jared Correia (00:39:12): That's good. And I think there were some organizations that started up in states outside of Massachusetts as well at one point. I don't know if that's still the case. Gabriel Cheong (00:39:21): I don't know. I've heard a couple that sort of have copied our model a little bit and offshoots of established bar associations. So it's good. I have no problems with that. I Jared Correia (00:39:30): Think it's great. I think it's a great idea. There should be more organizations like that. Yeah. Gabriel Cheong (00:39:34): All Jared Correia (00:39:35): Right. So I'm asking everybody who's on this episode best tips for getting speaking engagements as a lawyer. And I know you've sort of receded from this world a little bit, but what do you got for us? Gabriel Cheong (00:39:50): Let me tell you sort of how I first got started because I think this is relevant or this, which is be an expert in something. And when you and I first met, this was, like I said, 20 years ago, I was a baby attorney. Hat the hell was I going to teach people about? I was going to teach people about divorce. I barely knew it myself. But I knew that I had something that I could offer that I could be an expert in. And at the time, what it was, was legal practice management and technology. Because I was so much younger, because I was a computer science major, that's what my background was. I knew the technology. I was there when Google was born. And so I was there when they invented search engine optimization. (00:40:40): So I could be at the forefront of that as opposed to the attorneys that had already been practicing for 20 years. They were like, "Oh, I don't get this internet. I don't get this. I don't get that. " But me, it was really easy for me to catch up on that, learn it, and then become an expert. And that was my niche at that time, which was for the speaking engagements that I did was all about technology, law practice management, legal marketing, that kind of stuff, because I was on the forefront of that because I made myself an expert. Because I knew I wasn't going to be able to convince people to listen to me about custody and divorce. Jared Correia (00:41:17): Well, it's interesting because I think most people would look at that and they'd be like, "I have to be an expert in the legal field." But you started talking about adjacent topics, which is a really smart play. Gabriel Cheong (00:41:27): It was the business of law that I was talking about (00:41:30): Which is still actually my passion. I feel like I like that so much more than the actual (00:41:35): Practice of law now. Jared Correia (00:41:36): Me too. That's why I've done what I've done for the last 20 years. All right. I got one more question for you and then we're going to do something completely different. So we always run a third segment on this podcast, which often includes trivia, but we've got multiple guests on this episode. So I need to find a way to break the tie and select one person who's going to participate in that segment. Now I'm not sure if that's a prize, but here we are. So I'm asking everybody the same question and the best answer moves on. Are you ready for my question? You're Gabriel Cheong (00:42:10): Not going to give me a topic first so I can mentally bring up the information? Okay. Jared Correia (00:42:14): Nope. I'm blindsiding you. I'm ready. I'm Gabriel Cheong (00:42:17): Ready. Jared Correia (00:42:18): If you could create, and you can take a little bit of time to think about this. If you could create the perfect snow globe, what would be inside of it? Gabriel Cheong (00:42:27): That's not trivia. Jared Correia (00:42:30): It's not trivia. It's my tiebreaker question. Gabriel Cheong (00:42:32): That's a messed up psychology. I feel like if I answer wrong, somebody's going to come in with a stray jacket. Oh my God. Jared Correia (00:42:41): That's going to happen. No, no, we don't have anybody on hire for that. Gabriel Cheong (00:42:45): The perfect snow globe. Jared Correia (00:42:48): Perfect for you. I've got some actually really good answers so far. No pressure. Gabriel Cheong (00:42:53): Perfect for me. So I wasn't born here. So I was born over on the other side of the world in a place called Macau, which is the casino capital of the East. So it's like Las Vegas for the East, but much bigger, about 10 times bigger. Jared Correia (00:43:14): Is Macau still like a Portuguese province or something or Gabriel Cheong (00:43:18): Was it? It was a colony. Yay to colonialism. Or not. It was a colony when I was born there and now it belongs to China now, but it still keeps all the same sort of Portuguese stuff. But it is the only place where there's casinos and it's about 10 times larger than Las Vegas. Anyways, so my perfect snow globe, because it doesn't snow there, it is on the equator, would be a giant snow globe that would, when you shake it, it's just gold coins everywhere. I like this. So it brings me back to my heritage, my birthplace, but also motivate me to keep working. It's just I want to see gold showering everywhere. Jared Correia (00:44:03): It's going to be an expensive snow globe. Are we talking real gold? Gabriel Cheong (00:44:06): Real gold. I'm not going for that cheap shit. It is real gold. Jared Correia (00:44:10): Damn. Another good answer. I'm going to have such a hard time choosing. All right, this has been fun, but I have one more question for you. We asked everybody to bring an alcoholic drink of their preference and display it and describe it. So what do you have for us? Gabriel Cheong (00:44:26): Okay. So I have a ball jar with ice. Okay. Jared Correia (00:44:32): Oh my God, you're going to make it? Nobody's made it yet. Oh, Gabriel Cheong (00:44:35): I'm going to make it right now. Okay. So these are mini cans of tonic water, like gin and tonic tonic water. Oh, shoot. Jared Correia (00:44:42): Oh man, listen to the sound effects. Gabriel Cheong (00:44:45): This is the magic juice. So do we know what this is? Jared Correia (00:44:49): No. What is that? Gabriel Cheong (00:44:50): This is soju. So soju is the national Korean rice wine, basically. It's sort of like sake, but you know how sake is a little bit like biting and it's a little bit... It's harsher. It's higher in alcoholic volume. Yeah. Soju is a lot less alcoholic. So you can drink this whole bottle and not think you're drinking alcohol and then you're going to get messed up basically. So they come in with a lot of, they come in just plain flavors, but I always like the food flavored ones. So this is a strawberry flavored soju. Okay? Jared Correia (00:45:28): Oh, cool. So this Gabriel Cheong (00:45:29): Is what we're going to do. So it basically tastes like a little strawberry slushy kind of thing. Pete Jamieson (00:45:34): Yeah. Gabriel Cheong (00:45:35): So you take this, take an ounce of it, which is like a shot of soju. And then you put ton of water in it. All right. Jared Correia (00:45:45): Now we're talking. Gabriel Cheong (00:45:47): And then this becomes your, basically it's your soju soda, right? And Jared Correia (00:45:53): By Gabriel Cheong (00:45:53): The end of the Jared Correia (00:45:54): Night, Gabriel Cheong (00:45:55): If you drink this, this is going to mess you up. Let me tell you, this is going to mess you up. Jared Cheers. Jared Correia (00:46:00): I wish I had one. Gabriel Cheong (00:46:04): You told me Jared Correia (00:46:04): I had a Gabriel Cheong (00:46:04): Drink, so I'm Jared Correia (00:46:06): Drinking. I can only imagine how good it is. I have my iced tea, my giant bottle of iced tea, which is unfortunately non-alcoholic and not very flavorful. Gabe, that was amazing. Thank you for a little bit of mixology, a little bit of advice on getting some speaking engagements and everything else. I appreciate it, man. Thanks for coming on. Gabriel Cheong (00:46:24): Thank you so much, Aaron. Jared Correia (00:46:26): Should you gamble on Gabriel Chong's snow globe selection or will a one-armed bandit win again? Come back for our final guest interview before I need to make my big important choice. Jen, thanks for coming in today. I appreciate you joining us. How are you? Jennifer Mikels (00:46:44): Thank you so much for having me. I'm good. How are you? Jared Correia (00:46:47): So we've never met each other before. This is our first time. It's true. I'm excited to talk to you. It's great. Despite the fact that for folks on video can see that you have a relatively sparse decoration in your office. You are nonetheless an exciting person. I hope so. Don't get it twisted everybody. Jennifer Mikels (00:47:06): True personality. Jared Correia (00:47:08): Yes. Jennifer Mikels (00:47:09): Just to reflect my inability to decorate. Jared Correia (00:47:13): So can we talk about who you are and what you do? Please introduce yourself to the group. Jennifer Mikels (00:47:18): Sure. So I'm Jen Mikels. I am a director, which in Goulston and Storrs Speak means partner here at Goulston & Storrs. Jared Correia (00:47:26): Oh, I didn't know that. Jennifer Mikels (00:47:28): There you go. Learn something new every day. I am a trial lawyer who primarily defends other lawyers when their own professional judgment or conduct is challenged. So consider me the lawyer that you call when your problem is about being a lawyer. So that covers all things from disputes with your firm, partnership disputes, malpractice claims, legal ethics claims, lawyers acting as fiduciaries, which in Massachusetts can include acting as a trustee or an executor of an estate. I'm the person you call for all things in that world. Jared Correia (00:48:03): Cough, AI hallucinations, cough, cough. Any of those? Yeah. Jennifer Mikels (00:48:11): We see some of that. Yeah. Jared Correia (00:48:13): Okay. Be careful. Jennifer Mikels (00:48:14): AI is a powerful - Jared Correia (00:48:15): Be careful out there. Hopefully not too many are passing through your desk. Okay. I have to Jennifer Mikels (00:48:22): Ask you. I've seen a couple. And we actually just had a recent decision come down from the business litigation session where a lawyer who had that problem in another jurisdiction was seeking pro hac vice admission here in Massachusetts and was denied entry to Massachusetts courts on that basis. So you're touching on a hot button. Jared Correia (00:48:43): Really? On that basis alone? Oh my God. Jennifer Mikels (00:48:45): Couple other things, but yes, very interesting. Jared Correia (00:48:49): Check your work, homies. I have to say - Or not Jennifer Mikels (00:48:54): Checking business. Jared Correia (00:48:55): We're not. I have to say I've known a number of what I would call malpractice attorneys in my life. Is that a bad way to say it or no? That's what I would call the job. Jennifer Mikels (00:49:08): Yeah, I think that's fine. Jared Correia (00:49:11): They're all very chill people, frankly, yourself included. Jennifer Mikels (00:49:16): I like to say what I'm doing is the legal equivalent of working in an emergency room because by the time you call me, things have already gone really wrong and you need somebody to fix it. So part of the job is, my job I think is to be calm. Because on a day-to-day basis, I work with people who are very, very smart. Nine times out of 10 have dotted their I's, crossed their T's, have done what most people would say is a very good job for their clients. And either something has gone wrong or someone has accused them wrongly that something has gone wrong. And you have to bring a level of calmness into that space or else the whole world is chaos. Jared Correia (00:50:01): This is like the pit for law. Jennifer Mikels (00:50:03): That's right. Jared Correia (00:50:05): So let me ask you this. How do you get into this? What drew you to this practice area? Did you just kind of fall into it? Because what you just said, I would think would be a difficulty. I talked to a lot of attorneys who are like, "Hey, I don't want my client to act like a lawyer." But every one of your clients is a lawyer. Jennifer Mikels (00:50:23): Yeah, most of them are. It did just sort of fall into my lap. Goulston and Stores has a really long-standing history of being preeminent lawyers lawyers in Massachusetts that predates my time with the firm and my time practicing law candidly. So when I joined - Jared Correia (00:50:43): They've been around for a while. Jennifer Mikels (00:50:44): Yeah. When I joined the firm about 10 years ago, I was a mid-level associate and was doing all kinds of litigation. But by trade I'm a trial lawyer. And I had the very good fortune of working at a firm before coming to Goulston where I had a great mentor who by his trade was actually a plaintiff's side malpractice attorney, not against lawyers, but medical malpractice. And we had the good opportunity to try some cases together before he retired. And he sent me to Gulston specifically to work with who he though were some of the best lawyers in the city in the malpractice space. And he said, "If you want to be a trial lawyer, go work with these guys." So I did, and I've been here ever since. Jared Correia (00:51:34): Oh, that's really cool. Okay. I talked to Bruce Rochard, noted Canadians fan. Jennifer Mikels (00:51:40): Well - Jared Correia (00:51:40): Who lives in Boston. Everyone has their balls. Nobody's perfect. Who told me you would be able to provide some good advice to other attorneys, not on their malpractice claims this time, but about how to get speaking engagements. Sure. So do you have any advice on that? What should one do if they're sitting at their desk being like, "I deserve to be under the bright lights making CLE presentations?" Jennifer Mikels (00:52:04): So I think one of the great things about MCLE and about Bruce in particular, Canadians fan aside, is we love people to come to MCLE with new ideas. We actually have whole advisory committees that sit around and talk about what great program ideas would be and also how we can find speakers who might be the right people to present on topics. And it turns out, especially sitting where I'm sitting kind of at the intersection between being a practicing lawyer and representing lawyers, talking to many people at the bar, people who practice law don't just do one thing. There are so many different subject matters that come up for practicing attorneys. And unless you bring those ideas to MCLE, sometimes they just get mixed. And there's a great opportunity to come in and fill a gap. So if you have an idea for something that a group of attorneys practicing in Massachusetts might find interesting, my best advice is to call Bruce or to call someone at MCLE and say, "Hey, I have a program idea. (00:53:12): Do you have some time to sit down and discuss it? " And I think nine times out of 10, they really are receptive to bringing in new voices, new ideas, new curriculum. Jared Correia (00:53:22): I'm glad you're bringing this up because when I talk to attorneys, I think a lot of them are like, "Oh, it's the same people all the time. I can't get in there." And as somebody who, I don't know if you feel this way, but as somebody who does a number of programs, sometimes I'm like, "Fucking Bruce is emailing me again." And it'd be great if there are other people out there who wanted to talk about certain subject matters. So what you're saying is just reach out and be like, "I have an idea." Jennifer Mikels (00:53:49): Be proactive and tell people you have an idea. And if you're uncomfortable going to Bruce directly because you don't know him, go to somebody that you know who has volunteered at an MCLE program in the past because sometimes we get those emails and we are not asked necessarily to be the faculty, but we're asked, "Hey, do you know anyone who might be a good speaker on district court trial practice or someone who might be a great speaker on fill in the blank niche insurance topic or something that an idea has been raised, but they don't have somebody to teach the program. So if you are in the Rolodex, so to speak, of those who volunteer at MCLE regularly or have the connections at MCLE, chances are your name will be raised at some point in time for a program that might be a good fit for you. Jared Correia (00:54:39): Are there topic areas or subject matters that you're looking for people for that you have a tough time filling? Jennifer Mikels (00:54:47): So I can answer that kind of in two ways. We have a long list of, and I can only speak to the civil litigation side because that's what I specialize in, but we have a long list of the yearly programs that could circulate it to those of us on the committee. And we have quarterly meetings where we sit and we talk about them. And one of the things we discuss is (00:55:14): Here's a program idea, but we don't have a faculty member. So to answer your question that way, yes, we do sometimes have gaps or someone has run a program for a number of years and says, I really don't want to run this program, but maybe we could find a replacement faculty member. So there is some of that going around. The other thing we do, like I said, is raise new ideas. And so there may be places on the calendar that we're looking for programming, both faculty and ideas for what the program should be. And so that's why I say the best way to do it is to just be proactive, reach out and volunteer your services. Jared Correia (00:55:51): Great. Okay. So we always run the third segment on this podcast, which often includes trivia, which you may or may not know. I won't be offended if you don't know, but we have multiple guests for this episode. And so I need to find a way to select the person who's going to participate in that segment. I'm not sure if that's a prize, but - Jennifer Mikels (00:56:09): I guess we're going to find out. Jared Correia (00:56:13): I'm asking everybody the same question and the best answer moves on. So if you're ready, I will give you the question that I've asked everybody. Jennifer Mikels (00:56:20): Little nervous, but I'm as ready as I'm going to be, so let's have it. Jared Correia (00:56:24): That's fair. If you could design the perfect snow globe, what would be inside of it? Jennifer Mikels (00:56:31): Oh, that's a really good question. Jared Correia (00:56:33): Thank you. We've gotten a lot of really interesting answers to this point, so I'm looking forward to adding yours to the list. Jennifer Mikels (00:56:39): So I don't know if this is going to qualify as an interesting answer, but when I think of snow globes, I have a grandmother who happens to really love Christmas despite the fact that my family is Jewish. She was Jared Correia (00:56:55): Jewish too? And she was just very into Christmas? Oh, Jennifer Mikels (00:56:58): That's great. We're all about sparkle and magic in our family. So I think about a snow globe and I think about bringing a sense of calm and joy. And so I think about sparkle and snow and serenity. So I would probably put in some glittering snowflakes, nice white snow. But because I'm a beach hurl, I'd put it on the beach and give myself some winter fun on a tropical island. That's what I would find calming. Jared Correia (00:57:31): Snow in paradise. Jennifer Mikels (00:57:33): Yeah. Okay. Well, Jared Correia (00:57:34): It's got to be a Jennifer Mikels (00:57:34): Snowfall Jared Correia (00:57:36): For Jennifer Mikels (00:57:36): Sure. Jared Correia (00:57:36): I feel like there's a little bit of a Jimmy Buffett vibe going on here. That's pretty good. Jennifer Mikels (00:57:41): It's possible. Jared Correia (00:57:43): I think your grandmother would be very happy with this. I Jennifer Mikels (00:57:46): Think she would be happy with any type of snow globe that I created, but yeah. Jared Correia (00:57:51): Well, yeah, she is your grandmother. Did she collect snow globes too? Or was she just Jennifer Mikels (00:57:56): Like - No, she did have a fairly robust collection of ornaments, blue and white, but ornaments. Jared Correia (00:58:02): That's so funny. Okay. So I don't know. I find this extremely interesting. Okay. Jennifer Mikels (00:58:07): Well, this is probably more interesting than my snow globe itself, but go for it. Jared Correia (00:58:10): Well, did your grandmother have the menorah going and then a Christmas tree in the house as well? Jennifer Mikels (00:58:17): So she never had a tree. She never had an official Christmas tree, but she was a big believer in the magic and giving spirit of Christmas. So she did do Christmas presents. And she just though that it was a great time of year to recognize the importance of being kind to one another and joyful and bring a little bit of magic into the world, especially I personally think we could all use a little bit of magic in today's society. We Jared Correia (00:58:47): Could. Jennifer Mikels (00:58:48): I try and carry that forward, but that's what she always loved about it was just the happy families coming together magic of the day. And she tried to Jared Correia (00:58:58): Recreate Jennifer Mikels (00:58:59): That. Jared Correia (00:59:00): What a tremendously uplifting episode of the podcast. I have to say my cousins are, my uncle is Catholic and my aunt is Jewish. And I was always extremely jealous of them because they just get tons and tons of presents during the Jennifer Mikels (00:59:16): Holidays. I can do you one better. So I am Jewish. My husband is Catholic and my oldest son has a birthday on December 27th. Oh Jared Correia (00:59:25): My God, what Jennifer Mikels (00:59:25): A day for him. And that man gets it all at once. Jared Correia (00:59:29): Amazing. All rigt, we have one more question for you. Jennifer Mikels (00:59:31): Okay. Jared Correia (00:59:32): You have brought us a mocktail. It's a mocktail. Because we don't want anyone to get in trouble at work. Jennifer Mikels (00:59:41): Well, I am in my office and I do practice legal ethics and I know this may be a late night podcast, but we are filming in the middle of the day. We are this year. My version today is a mocktail, but it's still pretty. And in honor of my firm, what I brought you is what we call the GNS, which Jared Correia (00:59:59): Is - Oh, okay. Jennifer Mikels (01:00:00): The zero proof version, if you will, is soda water, tonic, and a twist of lemon. Jared Correia (01:00:08): That sounds good. I'd be very down with that. Jennifer Mikels (01:00:11): The full cocktail version, I'd add some gin to the combination. But the great thing about the GNS is not only is it simple, it's three ingredients, no drama, it's refreshing, but it's also highly customizable. So something that I like to do, especially in the summer, you can add a little bit of fresh fruit. So you could do a version with raspberry or some lavender syrup, add a little bit of sweetness to it, but just a nice refreshing drink on a summer day. Jared Correia (01:00:41): What a tremendous team building activity. Grab some GNSs and just go to town, mix it up with whatever you want. Jennifer Mikels (01:00:48): Absolutely. Jared Correia (01:00:48): And you've got the work based version if it happens to be like - Jennifer Mikels (01:00:52): That's correct. And we've got a great balcony space to enjoy them on so there you go. Jared Correia (01:00:56): If it happens to be 3:30 in the afternoon as it does right now, you could - So be it. Just grab the mocktail version. Jen, thank you. This was a lot of fun. I apreciate you coming on. Jennifer Mikels (01:01:06): Thank you for having me. Jared Correia (01:01:08): Has Jennifer Michaels mocktailed her way to the ultimate success story? Find out next when we bring back our winning contestant for the counter program, but first, a commercial break. Four amazing contestants, four delicious drinks and four rival snow globes, but only one of each can move on. After much reflection and ketamine usage, I've decided to slash funding for USAID. No wait. Wait, I'm not a dickhead. I'm announcing our winner, Tori Santoro of Santoro and Gray. So let's get ready to rumble. It's Tori Santoro versus Bruce Richard in the Counter Program. Next. Welcome to the Counter Program. It's a podcast within a podcast. This is a conversational space where we can address usually unrelated topics that I want to explore at a greater depth with my guests. Expect no rhyme and very little reason. Well, in this very special episode of the show, we actually have two contestants in the counter program today. (01:02:15): Welcome back. Bruce Richard of MCLE. Bruce Richard (01:02:18): Hey, hey. Jared Correia (01:02:19): New England. He's back. And so is Tori Santoro of Santoro and Gray who won her way into this round by flipping my snow globe question on its head to create a sand globe. Tori, well done. Victoria Santoro (01:02:32): Forced my way in. I'm back. I'm never leaving. Jared Correia (01:02:36): That'd be great. Let's elevate the stakes, shall we? Bruce, Tori, have you ever visited the website thisiswhymbroke.com? Tori, let's start with you. No? Victoria Santoro (01:02:49): No, I haven't. And I hope to Jared Correia (01:02:51): Never. Well, we're going to do it. You don't have to visit it, but I will show you some examples. Bruce, how about you? No, Bruce Richard (01:02:57): No. Oh, Jared Correia (01:02:58): What a great day for everyone concerned. Okay. This is a recurring segment of ours. This is a website where you can buy all kinds of crazy shit and run down your bank account. And they have some amazing product descriptions. Now normally I ask people to guess the correct price out of three different prices, but because we've got two people here, I'm going to show you a product, read the description, and then I'm going to transition back and forth because who gets to go first? But the person who is closest to the actual price will win a point. We'll tally up the points at the end. Now, as a little twist, I'll alternate between who's going first. So if you think the person in front of you has overbid, you have the prices right option to bid a dollar and can win as well. We all know how the price is right works. (01:03:49): Now - Bruce Richard (01:03:50): The difficulty, Jared, Jared Correia (01:03:51): Is that I'm so Bruce Richard (01:03:52): Cheap. Jared Correia (01:03:52): Yes, go Bruce. Bruce Richard (01:03:53): I'm so cheap that I'm always going to be way underbidding because I'm just ridiculously cheap. So there we go. Jared Correia (01:04:00): Oh, you don't want to give away your strategy to Tori that easily. Okay. Let's begin. We have our first product. Tori's like spamming the dollar button. Okay. So you should be able to see my screen in a moment. We are doing the Extreme Chores video game. Listen to the description. Prepare your children for the soul crushing responsibilities of adulthood with this Extreme Chores motion control video game. Your little gamers will learn the finer points of how to perform the monotonous tasks they will be saddled with for the rest of their lives. Here's what the game looks like. I wish I had this for my kids. Now for pricing purposes, I will tell you that this is not an actual video game. It is simply a joke box. We'll let Tori go first here. How much, Tori, do you think the joke box of the Extreme Tourist video game would cost? (01:05:02): And I will tally your number. Victoria Santoro (01:05:05): 11.99. Jared Correia (01:05:08): 11.99. I am trying not to show anything on my face as I talk about these items. Bruce, what is your price point? For that empty Bruce Richard (01:05:20): Box? Oh. Jared Correia (01:05:21): Go for a dollar. An empty box. Bruce Richard (01:05:23): It's going to be more than 11.99. It has to be more. Jared Correia (01:05:26): Bruce, it's an empty box, but a life lesson is in size. Bruce Richard (01:05:30): Then it's worth even more than just the 11.99. Do you want me to give a dollar value or do you want me to be a jerk and go $12 even? Jared Correia (01:05:42): You could do either. It is your car. Bruce Richard (01:05:45): Allright. Well, I'll do 12.9. Entirely different number. I'm not going to be an ass. And I would like to have Tori do other programs for me in the future. Jared Correia (01:05:54): I must say you both are off to a strong star. The actual price of the item is 12.99. Bruce, with the first point, Bruce has drawn first blood. Although Tori, that's a tough beat. That's an excellent guess, I have to say. I Victoria Santoro (01:06:13): Mean, Bruce, on the money. On the money. Literally. Jared Correia (01:06:18): Do you have this at home, Bruce? Bruce Richard (01:06:23): No, no, but I wonder when an extensive training program all through my youth. Jared Correia (01:06:29): All right, here's our next item. This is a good one also. It is called the Hand Crank Raid Siren. Look at this bad boy. Super impressive. Easily warn the entire neighborhood of an impending weather or zombie threat with the hand crank raid siren. It sports a tough metal exterior as it must, and is powered by manually rotating the handle. The faster you crank, the louder it sounds. My neighbors love this when I have my hand crank raid siren at home. Okay. You're popular in the Victoria Santoro (01:07:05): Neighborhood. Jared Correia (01:07:07): That and the cow, people love that. Bruce, you are first here. How much do you think this finally crafted hand crank raid siren would cost? Bruce Richard (01:07:20): Man, this is a tough one. Jared Correia (01:07:23): I mean, look at the craftsmanship on that bad boy for real. Bruce Richard (01:07:26): It looks like it's actual metal and not just plastic faking as metal. Jared Correia (01:07:32): I can't confirm it's actual metal. All right. Bruce Richard (01:07:33): So I'm going to go with $39. Jared Correia (01:07:37): $39 for Bruce. Tori, you can bid a dollar. If Bruce is over, you can give your own number. Oh, Victoria Santoro (01:07:47): That's true. No, you know what? I'm going to guess my own. $15. Jared Correia (01:07:51): $15. Now I got to do a little bit of math. Bruce? Bruce has won yet again. Bruce Richard (01:08:01): You're kidding. Oh Jared Correia (01:08:02): No. Bruce, what's going on? Tori's never doing another MCLE again. The actual price, 29.98 for the raid siren. Victoria Santoro (01:08:12): Bruce, have you actually been on this website? I have Bruce Richard (01:08:14): Not been on this website, but I will say for $29 - I knew Jared Correia (01:08:16): Bruce was on the site this morning. Bruce Richard (01:08:19): I will say for $29, I'm going on this website just to buy this. I will - Bruce is going to buy too. Wind this crank up every time as soon as hockey season starts. Oh, Jared Correia (01:08:31): This would be great for hockey. Okay. Tori's going first on this one. Here's our next item. Dark secret mystery woman funeral visit to shake things up. Leave everyone guessing when a mysterious woman arrives at your funeral, quietly mourns as though she knew your deepest secrets that disappears forever. Your loved ones get closure. Your friends get a decades lon conspiracy theory. Have like Elvira or Morticia Adams at your funeral in that striped umbrella. Might Victoria Santoro (01:09:06): Not be. Jared, is this per hour? Jared Correia (01:09:10): This is for the day. Victoria Santoro (01:09:12): It's for the day. Jared Correia (01:09:13): For the whole funeral proceeding, the wake afterwards. Well, no, just for the funeral proceeding, because you want to disappear before the wake. The mourner at your funeral, secret female mourner at your funeral, I believe we have Tori going first this time. What do you think it costs to have somebody come to your funeral and just fuck up your entire family relationship? You spent so long building. Victoria Santoro (01:09:43): Honestly, not a lot. I think it's about $550. Jared Correia (01:09:48): 550. What will Aunt Jenny say when your mourner shows up? Bruce, 550 is the current bid. Bruce Richard (01:09:55): More like, what will my wife say when that mourner shows up? Jared Correia (01:09:59): Yeah. Right. Bruce Richard (01:10:01): At Jared Correia (01:10:01): That Bruce Richard (01:10:01): Point, I guess, thank goodness I'm dead because I would be otherwise. Jared Correia (01:10:06): Just a point of clarification. I don't know if there's a male version of this, but I would imagine there must be. Well, anyway, Bruce, go ahead. What are you thinking Bruce Richard (01:10:14): For your price? Jared, I will tell you there is a male version of this because I've heard of another version of this where you get three guys, three 50-something year old heavyset Italian men dressed in black suits that show up and look like mobsters at your funeral. Now, I have no idea what those guys charge. Jared Correia (01:10:34): I think that would cost more. Bruce Richard (01:10:36): I think so. Jared Correia (01:10:38): You got three people, three miles to Bruce Richard (01:10:40): Print. Right. So I'm going to say 300. Jared Correia (01:10:43): This is a great podcast. 300. 300. I Bruce Richard (01:10:46): Suspect in Jared Correia (01:10:47): Massachusetts. Bruce Richard (01:10:48): We're probably both low, but I'm going to go 300. Jared Correia (01:10:52): Yeah. I mean, I don't know if these are Massachusetts prices, but Tori guessed this one. 500 bucks. Well done, Tori. Very nice. Tori is on the board, everybody, her first player. All right.This is way more competitive than I thought. It's two to one. Okay. Let's look at our next item for a bit. We're going a little bit higher in the price range this time. I think I can fairly tell you that without ruining anything. Okay, here we go. Next up. We have the underground spiral wine cellar, which is underneath me in my home right now. Store all your favorite wines like a debonaire secret agent with the underground spiral wine cellar. A must have for serious wine connoisseurs, this space saving wine cellar is designed to keep every bottle in your collection securely preserved at optimum humidity. As you can see, you can walk over it, you spin it around, you open it up. (01:11:52): It's got a staircase. What are we thinking for the underground spiral wine cellar? Bruce is first this time around. Bruce Richard (01:12:01): So I'm a little concerned because how am I going to... I want to keep the wine at optimum humidity, but by the time I go downstairs to get that third bottle, I'm never getting back up that staircase without busting it. There's no way. That thing is super tight. Jared Correia (01:12:18): That's true. You just sleep in the base of the wide cellar. Victoria Santoro (01:12:22): At least you're sleeping in optimal humidity, so you'll be fine. Bruce Richard (01:12:25): All right. Jared Correia (01:12:26): That's true. Yeah, you'll be great. Bruce Richard (01:12:27): This does not include any of the wine in the cellar, right? Jared Correia (01:12:31): No. Just the spiral item. I'm going Bruce Richard (01:12:36): To go with Jared Correia (01:12:38): $2,000. $2,000. $2,000. Okay. Tori, what do you think? Victoria Santoro (01:12:45): Marking this up right now. I'll keep this very interesting. I was going to guess $1,700. Jared Correia (01:12:51): Oh, dang. Okay. Yeah. You might be shocked on the... And we got another Bruce win, by the way. Bruce is like a fucking ringer for this game. I had no idea you'd do this. Victoria Santoro (01:13:02): We'll go Bruce. Don't worry. I've made a whole career out of getting my ass beat. Jared Correia (01:13:08): But the actual price, $25,000. Bruce Richard (01:13:13): Sweet. It's nice to know 2,000. Oh my God. Jared Correia (01:13:17): Crazy expensive. Okay. Yes. Wait and see the next one. I'm sure Victoria Santoro (01:13:23): Either of us should win a point for that. Bruce Richard (01:13:25): No, Victoria Santoro (01:13:25): No. Jared Correia (01:13:27): I'll keep it under advisement. I might take that one away. Iight strike it. Now, if you have your wine cellar, I feel like you also need your jet capsule mini luxury yacht. Would the jet capsule miniature luxury yacht, living the high life doesn't have to cost you an arm and a leg. This pint sized yacht features superb craftsmanship and contains the exuberant amenities you'd expect while taking up a fraction of the space of a traditional yacht, which is what we're all looking for. A smaller yacht. I also feel like this would be great as a bond villain. You leave your yacht as just exploding and you jet off into space. This Victoria Santoro (01:14:05): Is the escape yacht. Jared Correia (01:14:07): The escape yacht. The jet capsule mini yacht. Look at that thing. I mean, I think it looks pretty sweet. Bruce Richard (01:14:12): We are all on the same page here. This is the escape capsule yacht. That's what this is. If you happen to be - Jared Correia (01:14:19): I'm like, I'm out. I'm on my jet capsule. Bruce Richard (01:14:22): If you happen to be, oh, I don't know, any trillionaire in the world who has a ridiculously large yacht, then this would be the escape yacht off of your escape yacht. But for Jared Correia (01:14:33): The Bruce Richard (01:14:33): Rest of us - Could you Jared Correia (01:14:33): Imagine like Elon Musk? Victoria Santoro (01:14:36): No, this is like Bruce Richard (01:14:37): Space ball's energies. Jared Correia (01:14:39): Oh, this is definitely space ball's energy. You got a space for your helmet if you're dark helmet. It's great. We got Tori going first on this one. How much for the miniature yacht? Victoria Santoro (01:14:53): The micro yacht? Jared Correia (01:14:54): The micro yacht. I'm Victoria Santoro (01:14:57): Going to say - Jared Correia (01:14:58): And then sadly, we only have one left. All right, go ahead. Victoria Santoro (01:15:02): I'm going to say $125,000. Jared Correia (01:15:05): Okay. Tori's in at 125,000. Bruce. It Victoria Santoro (01:15:08): Is still a yacht. Jared Correia (01:15:11): Where do you sit? This is a big question because Bruce is up 3-1. So Tori needs this one to stay in the game. Bruce Richard (01:15:20): I'm going to go with an even - Jared Correia (01:15:21): And I had not thought what to do if we have a tie, so we're screwed either way. I'm Bruce Richard (01:15:24): Going to go with an even 100,000. Jared Correia (01:15:28): Okay. Okay. Tori stays alive. Yes. (01:15:33): The actual cost of the mini yacht is $250,000. A bargain, I would say, if you happen to be a trillionaire. This item has taken on some life of its own here. The last item, because this could be the tiebreaker. We may have to do a tiebreaker later.This has taken on all kinds of interesting factors that I had not though of. Last, the Porn for Women book. Ladies, prepare to enter a fantasy world where your ma listens to your issues, prepares delicious homecooked meals and cleans the house when you dig into the pages of the Porn for Women book. It portrays the opposite sex just as you've always imagined. Victoria Santoro (01:16:22): Priceless. Jared Correia (01:16:24): I have a copy of this on my coffee table. A priceless item. But what is it selling for on? That's why I'm broke. How much for this wonderful book? Bruce is going for us this time. Interest. Bruce Richard (01:16:41): I don't want to win this. Jared Correia (01:16:42): Nice gift for the wife. Bruce Richard (01:16:44): I can't win this. Does it say how many pages this book is? Jared Correia (01:16:48): No. Paperback, not hardback. I would imagine it's probably not a lot. Victoria Santoro (01:16:53): It's for women. It never ends. Jared Correia (01:16:58): Tori's leading into this one. There's always a new page. This big one that's going to clinch it for you. All Bruce Richard (01:17:04): Right. Well, I'm going to go with 1999. There we go. Jared Correia (01:17:09): 1999 for Bruce. Tori, we know this is priceless, but can we put a number on it? Victoria Santoro (01:17:18): Yeah, I was going to do 1999. I will go with 15 bucks. Jared Correia (01:17:28): 15 bucks. The actual price is $11.99. Victoria Santoro (01:17:37): Wait. We have a Jared Correia (01:17:38): Tie. Do we Victoria Santoro (01:17:38): Have a tie? We have a tie. Jared Correia (01:17:40): We have a tie. We have a tie. And I'm just going to leave it at a tie because we're all fenced here because I had no plan if we tied, which is definitely embarrassing for me. But Evan's going to leave this in the podcast just to make me look like an asshole. Thank you both for coming on. I had a delightful time. Victoria Santoro (01:18:00): Thank you for having us. Jared Correia (01:18:03): We could look at this as two winners, which is how I prefer to look at it. Pete Jamieson (01:18:07): Perfect. Jared Correia (01:18:08): Thank you both. Victoria Santoro (01:18:10): Yeah. Hey, we'll take it. Jared Correia (01:18:12): Good. Thanks to our many, many guests today who have been Bruce Richard of MCLE New England. Find out more at mcle.org. Just those four letters. MCLE.org. Tori Santoro of Santoro and Gray. Learn more at santoroandgray.com. S-A-N-T-O-R-O-A-N-D-G-R-A-Y.com. Santoroandgray.com. Peter Jamieson of Hastings, Jamieson, Lipschitz Family Law Group. Discover more at their website, nalegal.com. Well, that was very nice to shorten that up for the website. The letters legal.com. N-Alegal.com. Check them out. Gabriel Cheong of Infinity Law Group. Visit infinlaw.com for more. I - N-F-I-N law.com. Infinlaw.com. Jennifer Mikels of Goulston and Storrs. Check out ghoulstonstorrs.com. G-O-U-L-S-T-O-N-S-T-O-R-R-S.com. GoulstonStorrs.com. And special thanks to producer Evan Dicharry, video editor Allie Kvidt for stitching all this together. Few. Now, because there'll always be a '90s kid who is still somewhat confused about mullets coming back, but whose true passion is burning CDs for anyone who would listen. I'm now just doing the modern version of that, which is creating Spotify playlists for every podcast episode that I record where the songs are tangentially related to an episode topic. (01:20:01): For this week's playlist, I think it's only fair to create a playlist of group songs or songs by groups. It's bands only as we can show you how lots of people can come together just like in this podcast to make beautiful music. Who knew that Grillos Pickles would want to sponsor this segment? It's actually a good question. They don't because they didn't. But they're so good Grillos Pickles. The ones with the anthropomorphic pickle, sunbathing with a baseball cap on, living the pickle dream. Join us next time when I have far fewer guests so the whole team can take a break.