Latest / Wired For More - ADHD & Self Mastery / Humanity in Sales - Lindsay Rios

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Humanity in Sales - Lindsay Rios · Wired For More - ADHD & Self Mastery

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hey everyone, Ian May here with the Wired for More ADHD and Self Mastery Podcast.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: I have my good friend Lindsay Rios on the line.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: She is a fractional go-to-market executive coach, leadership coach, but all things sales and the good kind of sales.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if you're listening to this, you're not seeing my outfit right now.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: I have my hair slick backed.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm wearing my Gymshark shirt.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: I've got a nose strip on, fully representing the sales bros.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: Don't forget the energy drink.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yes, and then the Jocka William Willink uh energy drink, discipline is freedom.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna take this nose strip off.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, should I have done that?
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like an ASMR of like the slide.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: So good.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Moment lost.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: But Lindsay, thank you so much for joining.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: Really looking forward to this conversation.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: I remember you DM'd me and said, hurry and book this time.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I normally don't like it when people tell me what to do, but I uh it was you.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I was like, yeah, no problem.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think I I led with a permission-based opener, though, where I said, hey, you probably did.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: This is a very well-researched request, and it's gonna be meaningful for you.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh give me 30 seconds.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then the response to that was like, hurry up and book your time.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: You're you're probably right.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, Lindsay, one of the things that we, you and I have connected on is the fact that both of us have come from really healthy sales cultures and also some really unhealthy, toxic sales cultures.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: And what's interesting is that I think both you and I have realized we can't really heal the culture of those sales communities when we're on the outside of it.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what's awesome about the work that you do is that you really lean into the ways that one, sales can be fun and does not have to take itself so seriously.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Your tagline being you need to fix your poopy pipelines.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that by itself, one, I appreciate because I don't take myself seriously at all.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: I take the work very seriously, but not myself.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: And you and I'm just spirits in that.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: But the other part of this, so too, of recognizing that, hey, we want to be the change that we want to see in the corporate world, in our nervous systems, and being able to celebrate all that.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: So one, just celebrating you in that.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: But two, where did that start for you?
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like at what point did you decide, like, hey, I want to go be different?
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna help make that change.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I have a statement I kind of say where I'm I recognize the times in my life that I've gotten really lucky.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but then I've always recognized the luckiness and then done it on purpose from there on out.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so when I say I'm lucky with this, it's because when I wanted to take a break from school before applying to medical school when I had gotten my undergrad, my dad was like, Yeah, like no problem.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: Why don't you just work?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember going, Okay, but where?
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: And he was working at a dealership at the time, car dealership.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: He's like, Why don't you just sell some mini Coopers and BMWs?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Okay, like, because I loved cars because my dad.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: Now, when you say something like one of the most toxic environments to be in, car dealerships tend to be it, unfortunately.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: But I was lucky that I was such so young and starting out a career to have had an experience where I was able to make the decision and go, I want to do this differently and still succeed.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so I've carried that honestly unknowingly throughout the rest of my career for such a long time.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: I really didn't put into uh place in my brain how much I really learned and carried with me from the the car business into what I do today.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm glad I figured it out finally.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of the limiting beliefs that a lot of people have is they think they have to completely buy into whatever toxic environments that they've been in.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I can't be successful unless I'm willing to act and behave and believe the things that those people do.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: I applaud the fact that from a very early career standpoint, you have that experience, but also just that confidence to be able to say, I don't care how long it takes for me to be able to prove that this belief is true.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have to be the same.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I even so, you know, I can talk a lot about why the automotive world is typically pretty, pretty toxic in a lot of ways.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: But of the automotive world, the dealership that I worked at was, you know, a very high quality one to be at, still under private leadership to this day, or ownership, I mean.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so if you're gonna work for one, it's it's it's good to work for that, for that, that group.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, my dad was there, so he would not have been okay, you know, suggesting I work there if he thought it was gonna be, you know, ultimately terrible for me.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: And he also knew the daughter he had helped raise, so he was probably like, yeah, and she's gonna be just fine.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: This this girl's a tough cookie.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen it, I've witnessed it, I know exactly because I cultivated it.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: One, that gives me a lot of joy as a father of two girls, both of which I can already tell as a six-year-old and two-year-old, that like they are tough and intense.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: I can tell just by their adorable but slightly terrifying little faces.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um I mean, obviously I'm biased, but uh one of the things though that you even just said of acknowledging that you there was some luck involved with the environment that you were in was probably as good as it possibly could have been, despite the fact that, hey, culturally, these sales reps they they reek of commission breath, but also their entire livelihood is based on whether they can sell cars or not, period.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like there there is no base pay salary, right?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: They don't get paid to show up and take a desk.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: They very much so like, hey, my livelihood is based on whether I am able to get you to walk out of this room with something on paper.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I increase the likelihood that I do that if I do it the day that you walk in.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it's and it's difficult for people to acknowledge the fact of like this isn't a manipulation, this is statistics, and this person is treating me in a statistical manner, and there's some benefit to that.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so, from my own perspective personally, we live in a world where, hey, don't even show up to the dealership until you're until you're ready to buy.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: Which I've been telling that to friends and family for so many years ever since.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm just like, stop doing that.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: I don't understand why you're doing that.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: And then they complain, I was there forever, and this and then I'm like, Well, I told you, I told you how you could do that differently.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we do that.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: We do that with software sales, we do that with all kinds, right?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: That actually brings up a good point, right?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, okay, with car sales, some people are still idiotic, but amongst the tech world, buyers I think are more informed than they've ever been.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think from a lot of people that I've heard who are still in tech sales, they're saying, hey, it is harder now to sell software than it's ever been because of how informed buyers are.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: In your role as a fractional CRO and consulting, uh, a lot of different organizations.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what has been your experience in that, in that thought?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and actually, I mean, not to make the whole discussion around the car dealership world, but I when I was there, I was there during the time where the internet was really changing how people were buying cars.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: Without having to give away exactly how many years I've been doing this.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: This was when, you know, um the term BDR to me was not business development representative.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, before it was the business development room.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: There's these things called BDRs started to populate in um dealerships because the internet existed and people wanted to try to start inquiring on the phone and on you know, email to ask about cars and availability and pricing and things like that.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: So they started essentially putting what we would think of as a BDR in a way in these rooms to talk to people to try to get them.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: Their sole goal is to get them into the dealership with an appointment so that then obviously a salesperson would then try to sell to them.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: And they got way more money.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, if that person bought a car, let alone just showed up and there was levels to that.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: So you had people come in who were so much more already educated on the cars.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: But before back in the day, if you wanted to know anything about a car, you literally had to go to the dealership and ask a salesperson questions and test drive it and all of that.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: No other way to know.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: And there weren't the billions amount that there are today.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: So you went to the one BMW dealership that existed anywhere.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: You couldn't go to the other five that now exist within an hour radius of you now to try to see if they say the same thing or give you a different price.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I think again, thinking about so much of the foundation I had early, I already went through like being somewhere as it transformed with having buyers be far more educated and have tons of options, right?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: To go elsewhere for the same product, you know, essentially.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: So, how did you make it so that they chose you?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: And you think about it and you make it about why they want to choose you.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: They're not choosing my dealership, they're not choosing my car, right?
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: They're not choosing the price because we can all probably technically do the same thing.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that when we hear about today, yes, am I hearing, even as a person owning their own business, I saw a shift in the last 12 months, how much more difficult things have gone for, you know, selling two companies.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: But it always comes back to, I feel like, but they're choosing you.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: So you better hope you is an enjoyable person to choose.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for for me, that resonates because of now being a coach and kind of consultative in general, is the fact that yeah, when I used to sell tech software, it was pretty easy because it's it's all funny money.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the the points are made up uh and definitely don't matter.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, but now all of a sudden, when you know, going from selling multi-million dollar projects, which just felt like, oh yeah, this is a four million dollar contract, big deal.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like you you're not even really thinking about it.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: But now all of a sudden, selling your own coaching or selling yourself for three or four thousand dollars, and all of a sudden that visceral discomfort as if I'm brand new to the phone, brand new to like have I ever sold anything ever.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: Why don't you like me?
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: Where did you go?
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I had a a pretty wonderful sales coach call me out on a that um my need not just to be like, but to be perceived as competent is actually keeping me from running in an effective sales motion.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: My business would suffer and my family would suffer.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I had to sit with that.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, Yeah.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, one, uh Chris Caldwell, he's he's a verb, you've been called well, and I did.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of the work that I do though is developing that ability to navigate the nervous system when trying to do exactly what you said.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: Pitch yourself, be a human being.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: In the world of AI, how do we teach people how to become more human rather than offloading every single thing that is uncomfortable to automation, AI services?
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I get reached out by a thousand different people to say, Oh, hey, I could automate this part of your business.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: I had somebody who's who's built a LinkedIn agent and it does a whole bunch of outreach and a whole bunch of messaging and does a whole bunch of different stuff.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I shared with him what my impressions and content and engagement looked like.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: He was like, I've never seen numbers like this.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, yes, because it's me doing it.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because it's me.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's even if AI is helping me edit this, this is still me.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm still a human being.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: These stories are mine, these are not contrived, these are not manufactured, and you can tell.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not necessarily doing it because it was the most viral trending topic, right?
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's like it's because it's what I want to talk about when I want to talk about it to my target audience.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was not very sexy when I started talking about addiction and and mental health disorders and burnout.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like people aren't just gonna be like, awesome.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yay.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, but at the same time, especially because it's all about, you know, you say something, it's like you're a coach now, right?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: For coaching to be effective, you have to resonate and trust that human being, or you're not it's this I tell I tell the people the same thing when I were potentially wanting to work with me for coaching, because coaching is not my main business, right?
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm like really upfront from the start.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, we have to actually just vibe as human beings and connect.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: Because it doesn't matter if I'm the most effective quote unquote coach or not, you won't want to tell me anything.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: You won't want to trust me, and or the way that you can receive any kind of feedback is not going to be very great if we don't have that sort of connection.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: So this is the same as with people with choosing a therapist or a primary care provider.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: How many people do we hear that are like, I really don't care for my doctor?
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I go, then find someone that you don't just care for, that you genuinely like.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: This is your literal life.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: You want to tell your doctor things that are happening.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and you want to trust their opinion of how they want to, you know, help you.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: So if you think about that part of it, especially for you as a coach, it's not just, it's not just a service you're providing, like you're coaching people, then things like addiction and burnout and all those things are gonna resonate with the right people because they want to work with someone who understands that.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: You you're bringing up so much for me in terms of okay, I still want people to like me.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: I still want and and the problem is is like people, I want people to like me.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, then who are you serving?
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you serve that person?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: What can you actually help them with?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for every coach, every SaaS product, every AI tool, they they're a hammer and everything is a nail, right?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: And you get stuck in if you can do everything for everyone, then you actually can't help anyone.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it's the same thing with wanting to be liked by everyone or people, this sort of ambiguous term for a large audience.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in the circles that we kind of float around in, who are all LinkedIn creators, who are all very much putting themselves out there constantly, they're always coming back to this.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like this one person crapped all over my post, and I'm giving this a ton of emotional energy.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: And what's interesting is it actually when you get the confidence to know, I need to repel as many people as possible so that the right people come forward, right?
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: And when you're a good market, and surround me.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, exactly.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then involve me in your warm, loving arms and hugs constantly.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: But I think to that point, right, I I think again, with this informed client, they are getting better at being able to self-select whether this person is or isn't for them, or their tool is or isn't for them.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so there is some amount of, I need it to be very abundantly clear.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: Here are the types of people that I work with, right?
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna work with the person who's right out of college and maybe has some ADHD.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, no, you've been 10 years in industry, you have a bunch of trophies and accolades already, you're going through burnout.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: This is not laziness and and a character flaw defect.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like you have trophies to say that you don't suck, and yet your nervous system's not showing up for you anymore.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's who I help.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I need that person to know when they read my stuff that, like, oh yeah, Ian Ian gets that.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: I that's exactly the phrase.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: And you I want to be abundantly clear about who I do and do not help.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so when I put the humor into, you know, things like my literal image on my LinkedIn says no poopy pipelines, or if I dance around in my hallway filled with laundry that needed to be folded two weeks ago or whatever.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: And people are just like, Aren't you worried, right, about coming off unprofessional?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: Aren't you worried about losing a potential customer you could have had?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: No, because I want to be abundantly clear about the types of people that can find me to be really good and professional at what I do and still like to have a lot of fun.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like it's okay.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: I have no problem if someone goes, I find that unprofessional, I would not hire her.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: There's that's a positive for me.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: Great.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: The idea you need to make everybody happy with you is just a lost amount of energy that is just unnecessary.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: And being able to very quickly self-select or you select for them.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, hey, very, very lovingly, sir.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't want to name names, but Karen is one of them, and Jeff, for whatever reason, is the other.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: Or was it John?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: Is it a John?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like Johns are usually nice.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I'm I'm also reclaiming that Ians are becoming nicer.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: Ians, I used to have a joke that all Ians are assholes, and then I healed myself, and now they're not.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: So if it makes you feel better, I've known a handful of Ians, and not one of them has been an asshole.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: I have liked all of them a lot.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's because I have reached out to all of them to help us like gather together and as a group.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: Ians.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: Rebrand.
• 16:48
  unknown: Yeah.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: Total rebrand.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: It helped go to Scotland because I met so many Ians.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: So many.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know that that many existed.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: It was everywhere.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: It was awesome.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: And Scottish culture in general, nicest people I've ever met.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: Hands down.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: And not Texas nice, like not southern, bless your heart nice, like genuinely just the nicest.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: I worked for a UK-based company for years, and I just missed them.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: And that culture and the humor so much.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: So actually, one of my clients now is they're London and French and EU based.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I just was like, oh, I just, I just missed this so much.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_02: It makes me so happy.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: They're the ones where we're all Muppets for our Slack picture, right?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's just, yeah, I know.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: So good.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: So we've we've talked about the humanity of us as individuals.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: You do a lot of coaching and consulting, even for women in sales, right?
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: And we've talked about some of these toxic kind of bro cultures.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: I wore my douche bro tech sales outfit.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I think one of the things uh I appreciate is the fact that when we think about sales differently, it is not a boys' club anymore.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: It is not just for us to smoke cigars, drink whiskey, play on the golf course, and talk about being masters of the universe and then exchanging funds back and forth.
• 18:06
  unknown: Right?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like all of those things.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: Totally, mind you, like bring that back.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like I I could use a a little bit more um hype about being masters of the universe, but inviting our lady friends into it.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: And Lindsay, you were invited into my cigar.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't smoke, I don't drink, and and my golf game could use some work.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: So we could instead have wine and cheese and um have our toesies out for the the breeze to go by.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: I could use a pedicure too.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um but the the benefit of being a girl dad is I don't have to feel any shame for that.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that is just part of me indoctrinating and showing the ladies, not the little ladies.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean that's something that I want to just even acknowledge of when you're working with in, you know, kind of coaching other women in the industry, how do you help them build this resilience to one, like go into the world like with this mindset of it can be different?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: Don't get stuck in the belief that this has to be this way and you just have to kind of pretend to be one of the guys in order to be successful.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: To be honest, like I don't I don't think it's a ton of like explicit conversation around like you woman, this, that, man, that, as much as pointing out when I think something's happening and kind of having to ask questions sometimes like would that happen if you were a man?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: Or would you know, kind of things?
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: And you don't know that you know, you can never know the answer for sure.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not actually the exercise I'm trying to prove, as much as I'm trying to make you realize something that I think something that you've been socially taught is happening right now.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: And it could be even a woman and woman interaction when it's happening, it doesn't matter, but like sometimes just pointing out something, and I had to go through an experience like that myself.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: Because I will be honest, like, yeah, I started out in the automotive world, and were there other many women selling cars?
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, there were not.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: Did I get asked if I was the receptionist more times than I could count?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: Because why would I have been a salesperson?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yes, yes, I did.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: Even so, I still feel like I've overall had a pretty positive experience being a woman selling or being a leader or whatever.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but like, and when I say that because I I wasn't getting like I don't know if you ever saw that I call it a mini documentary that I made a couple, no, almost like two years ago for International Women's Day, where I collected a bunch of women who shared something that got said to them in their lives.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: And Leslie, the Nets had something horrific said.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: We're allowed to swear on this podcast.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'll leave it out if I need to.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: And she said that, you know, her, I think it was the CEO on just out on the open sales floor, said something like, Oh my god, women are so stupid, you know, kind of statement.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: I've never had to deal with something like that before.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: What I did have to deal with when I was ahead of sales for the first time was I was asked to come in and build out this enterprise organization, be the executive sales leader and be among peers of my co-founders, you know.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: And one of them was in charge of product.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the things I had to keep providing some feedback and pushback on was when we needed certain things to be released, because they were essentially promised to the prospect, they wouldn't purchase our software unless we could do it.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: And then he would try to give deadlines or, you know, that would be like a month give or take, right?
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, no, like we can't do that because that's too, that's too vague, right?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: And when we start having enterprise level customers, we're asking for a large commitment.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: We're asking for a rough contract because enterprise software contracts are very one sided, and a lot of money.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: And then for them to actually like implement this into their organization.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: So we have to be a little bit more reciprocal in our commitment back to them.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: So, no, giving like a month give or take is not gonna work.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I said it pretty much like that.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, probably a little bit quote unquote.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna say nicer because I actually don't even like the word nice.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: And we'd only had a couple meetings like that.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then I ended up getting a, you know, in a one-on-one with the CEO, the other founder, asking if that person had spoken with me.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I went, What do you mean?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: I could tell it's in a way of like, did they, did they talk, did he talk to you about something that he's bothered by, kind of statement?
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, no.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: And he was like, it's okay.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like I told him to talk to you.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, okay.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: And then he basically says, you know, I told him that this isn't what's happening, but you know, he just feels like you're being really aggressive.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, no one's ever, besides my husband, nobody has ever called me aggressive in my entire life.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like, what?
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: And it was just like making me actually question, how have I been showing up at this company?
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: Now, this was also during COVID.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it was like there's so many things happening during, and I mean like COVID, COVID time, not like later where we could go back outside.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm sitting there going, like, is it getting to me?
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: Am I am I showing up in a way that's, you know, like aggressive and and bitchy and whatever?
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: And then um, and there was another guy in the company that was, he just liked it so much and he had been an investor.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: He just wanted to be more involved.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: So he was given this title as president.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: And then he would just, he had this wonderful network.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: So he would introduce a lot of opportunities.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: But then, like, I he was in Hong Kong and we had a big presence there.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: So my job was to also start helping open up a Hong Kong office with an actual salesperson who could start taking on the sales process because he couldn't really do that.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I'd already had um at least one founding AE on the US side, and he was supposed to find some people that I could then interview and hire.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: One day he just says, Oh, I hired this guy.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: And we were like, Okay, mind you, this guy has never sold anything in his life.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: Very strange choice to sell an enterprise product.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever, I go with the punches.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: I said, Okay, one of the best things we're gonna have him do besides this stuff is I'm gonna have him shadow the AE to see how we're selling and this and that.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: And he sends a message to the founding AE one day of just like, hey, so-and-so is just gonna take over these deals now.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: So she came to me and was a little bit like, oh, is that what's happening?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, no.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I had sent him a message of, hey, this person's just started.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: They're not ready to take on things all by themselves.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: You also we we can't take an opportunity that's already mid-processed from this other AE.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: So he's already been told he'll just shadow along to see how the process goes.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: And then anything incoming from then on, you know, he can have.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: How dare you make sense?
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: How dare you make sense?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: Or be a sales leader who knows anything.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_02: Then he went and he ranted to the CEO that I was territorial and this and that.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so this is all happening within kind of a week's time.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: I ended up just having this total meltdown because I, like I said, I was really questioning like myself, and thank God for someone at that company who was just like, if you were a man, this would not be happening.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: Because we all know you well enough.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: And some of these people have actually worked with me for years at a prior company, because that's what you do.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: You find your people, you bring them with you, and they're just like, they just don't like that there's some woman saying no.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm just sitting there with it.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: And like, I wanted to like openly accept that, but there was still a part of me that was just like, what could I have done differently?
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: What a waste of my time and energy, you know.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the only thing that you could have done differently, Lindsay, is is to have sat with them and helped them heal their mother wounds for potentially years.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, like shame on you again for one making sense, and then two, not putting in the work.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: So you not put in the work to get to heal them of that.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: I laugh at that only because of the fact that I had deep, deep mother wounds for a long time that really did impact how I communicated and connected with women in the workforce, with my own spouse in the dating world.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, as much as you know, all of that seems like no, leave that at home, like that's not for the workplace place, be professional.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yet those biases come up.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: Regardless of your tone, Lindsay, like there's some amount of bias that people are gonna have of like what's considered assertive and healthy, assertive language versus like what is actually territorial, bossy, critical, overly critical, belittling, like any number of those things versus being able to say, Hey, I'm just gonna go ahead and write this down, and then I'm gonna have AI say it with his manly voice and just see how that lands.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like with this manly voice.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and the reason why I tell that long story too was just kind of like that's that's the stuff that I I feel like I focus on more if I'm if I'm specifically working with, you know, maybe a woman within leadership or sales, because I think that it's those things that kind of don't the the seemingly innocuous stuff that really because it really affected how I was showing up as a leader in my in my next company for a while and I didn't realize it.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I didn't do a lot of work and I was thankful I had a CEO to to help support, you know, and recognize it.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: But like, yeah, I mean, it it carries with you.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: And because you don't, it wasn't such a big event.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_02: It well, it kind of was, but I mean, like, it carries with you in a way that it still shows up and you don't realize it.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, especially given the fact that you have worked really hard over your career to be assertive, to understand what you do have control over and what agency you have in leading your team, running a sales motion, onboarding new reps.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like those are all things, and it's like, hey, I have a process and it looks like this.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: No one has ever been upset with me for my process.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: Ever.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: Ever.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: I have yet to get any bad complaints about this.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: So why is like remove me from the equation?
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about the process.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: So we're not even having a discussion about it.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: This is not the ego of Lindsay Reus right now.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: This is the process.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: Are we disagreeing with my process?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Are we disagreeing with the output of this process?
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like, so now all of a sudden we can have a healthy conversation about this.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like, let's just remove me being the one who's dictating whatever the process is.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: But that's I think that's something where for a lot of the people that I work with who are you even said this, I don't like the word nice, but who are nice, who are really unconfrontational, who any type of disagreement they immediately shut down, versus like actually, let's go back and let's review what did I say.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: My memory says this is what I said.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: Here are the things that I'm assuming about the assumptions that I made.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: Here are the standard operating procedures that backed what I'm thinking.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like any confusion about those things.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about that.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: But what's interesting is I think when you become that person who is capable of being that level of assertive, it is gonna sound very contentious to somebody who just doesn't understand or has never experienced that level of assertiveness.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: I had an HR rep yelling at me, screaming at me because of something that I said, and I did exactly that.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: I walked back of like, hey, help me understand.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: I can obviously I can see that you're upset.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: This is what I said.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: Here are the assumptions that I was making, and here's the information based on that assertion.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like, help me understand where is this coming from?
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just so interesting that once you develop that level of acumen of like, I don't need to make everybody like me.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: And on top of that, being assertive is not unhealthy.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, it's one of the most beautiful things that you can do in any relationship, working personal or otherwise.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: That now all of a sudden you just start to get more confident of like, this is how I set healthy boundaries for myself.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: This is how I hold my peers accountable to expectations that I have for them, that the expectations are agreed upon.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's reviewed by multiple team members across different organizations, that there is a lot of objective reasoning around how and why I operate a certain way.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: And now it has nothing to do with me, this person, whatever bias you have, because there is a bias against you in those environments.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: There is a bias against me in some environments too.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: I I am a former bodybuilder, a lot of androgenic uh features.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: There's plenty of biases against me.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: I wear this cross on my neck, I live in Texas.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: The assumption is that I go pew-pew America, and there's just a flag, you know, sticking out of my ass 99.9% of the time.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: There is still bias.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody has them.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's just what do you do with your bias?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: And how do we actually protect ourselves from falling into our own traps?
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like you even said it.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: I carried that into my next role, which very well might might have meant that in your next role, you were overly critical.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you were, or worse, the opposite, you didn't speak up as much.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so now your bias is, hey, my voice can't be heard in this room and be respected.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: Or I'm not as confident anymore because when I speak up, people kick me out of the room.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: The board doesn't like it.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever, you know, whatever bias, like we all have that, and our ability to be protective against it um is its own skill.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: Because we are just biologically wired to avoid pain, right?
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like, so we will do it.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: You say that, and then some of us just seek it, like uncomfortably.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, that's true.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: Well, there is that.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: Remind me why I cry in so many squat racks.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, the the quads are evil and they must be punished.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: But outside of the weight room, the the pain avoidance part of it, I think that there is some amount of that of acknowledging this is something that I'm currently working through, and I'd love to actually hear your take on it.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: When you're in a room full of a large number of professionals, how do you navigate when you can tell somebody's just trying to avoid pain, and that's the part of them that is showing up?
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: Versus, hey, how do we have objective reasoning patterns?
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: How do you hold the whole group accountable to that?
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you maybe like spot that and communicate that in a group environment?
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because like I'm good with one-on-one, like I'll be on all sessions.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like I can handle that with my own interception when I'm sitting across from an individual, but doing that in a room is something that I find to be a little bit of an enigma, and I think even an art.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm curious to see your thoughts on it.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: The question, I don't know that I've consciously thought about like how I do it, but when I think about the times that I'm in a be it real or virtual room with lots of, you know, multiple people, I find that I'm most effective at doing that when I make sure that I sit there and really listen for a good period of you know, period of time, letting others speak first a few times so that if I have because if something else, someone else has said something that I think is is great or or needed to be said or whatever, it's like you go, yeah, great.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like they said it instead of having to always be the first one, or just because I had the same idea, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I gotta say the same thing.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: Because that's something that as of someone who likes to share a point of view, like you want to do all the time.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: But when I've been able to like wait long enough, there was a time I was in a a group that I like to be in every, I think it's every month, and it's all women, and it's a really, really safe place.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: There's no recorders allowed and all that.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: And um, someone was talking about something, and there's a lot of other, you know, women that had said something, and then I decided I had one thing I wanted to point out that I hadn't heard yet.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, I'm hearing, and then I said the thing that I was hearing.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: And the reason why I was able to do it is I was able to just kind of like take a bigger step back than what some people were doing.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: And no one had anything bad to say, everything was kind of useful, but it when you're trying to point someone out that's like trying to avoid conflict or or something like that, like I try to take the big step back to kind of be like, what am I actually like observing or hearing is going on so that I can take down maybe the like the symptoms part and get more to root cause part.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: And this is all very squishy at the moment, but like that's what's what I find.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: And that that translates into even just like how to make I think again an effective strategy in a company.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's just like we get really attached to like going toward the surface level symptoms or things that are easy to to to see.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: But then I'm like, okay, but why don't I take a moment to like go back and hear what I'm really like, really try to hear it in between the lines.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's a really useful way to to do that within like a group, is that you know, especially if you're like one of me who likes to volunteer and be vocal, is to like in a group setting, hang back, like observe a little bit more and then take everything and kind of like make it cohesive, if that makes sense, and try to hear what others aren't hearing because they're immediately trying to go and say something.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: I love what you said just about the fact that not having to immediately have an opinion, and so your ability to take that step back, observe for a bit, be present with what you're observing, and the time that you give yourself to wait to form a healthy enough, not just an opinion, but just sharing what you're observing.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, I'm noticing when we talk about this new rollout or this new motion sales strategy, I'm noticing that you keep kind of pointing to this particular thing.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm curious, hey, what data do you have to support that?
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and I'm not I'm not challenging, you know, your experience and your background of just like, but no, like what data are we gonna collect to like confirm, agree, or disagree?
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and what would actually be a safe to try experiment that might challenge some of those beliefs?
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: And like being able to do it with that level of acumen, but I think there's something else that you said though too.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: We often look at any disagreement as like this monumental, painful thing versus like what does healthy discourse really look like?
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: And the thing that keeps coming up for me over and over and over again in group settings is consent versus consensus, right?
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: And consent is everyone agrees that this is gonna work or that this this hypothesis is is right versus consensus being able to say, hey, we all agree to how we're gonna participate in running this experiment, right?
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: And the the difference often ends up being of like, can we just agree that we're gonna run this experiment?
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like not about what the outcome of this experiment is.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: Our job as scientists, since I'm using that analogy, is running a healthy experiment, not proving our hypothesis.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the part where you you have to remove the outcome from it.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: You have to obsess about, hey, what data are we gonna collect in the process?
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: What are the safe to try versions of this?
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: We're not gonna do this across our entire portfolio for every one of our clients.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: We're just gonna have this one team member run a pilot.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: He's gonna target this ICP with this messaging and this brand, yada, yada, yada.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: And like, hey, we're gonna evaluate over the three-month period these conversions, you know, this data, and then we're gonna potentially roll that out to a whole team, right?
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like being able to have an environment like that where you create more safety around how you make decisions, how you're collecting the data, and it stops being coming about hey, we all have to agree how we're gonna go from 5 million ARR to 20.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like we all have to agree on how that's gonna be done.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I've I've been in companies where they obsessed over having the kumbaya, everybody's warm fuzzy feel good, and and they failed miserably because it was too much of the warm fuzzy feel good.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: We are all singing kumbaya, versus the organizations who kind of have some amount of we do need to make a decision, because no decision is still a decision, but here's how we can run this experiment safely.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: And the more people learn how to participate in that while still disagreeing.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, I disagree with the hypothesis, and yet I know we're all celebrating how we're collecting that data.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'm agreeing that we're gonna do this this way for right now, and then I'm also gonna do my best to be a part of it instead of being actively resentful in it.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: Not willing to participate in the experiment because you disagree with the hypothesis.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think a lot of what I'm hearing from you throughout this discussion, which I think I, you know, I do a lot too, is like there's a diff like you want to bring as much odd objectivity into things without discrediting the subjectivity.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: Because no matter what, like we could talk about the most boring, and well, it's not very nice to say it, but I mean like the most like technical, like data-driven research excel sheet job or something like that that you think would have no emotion and subjectivity to it, it won't matter.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like at the end of the day, we're all human beings, so we are all subjective to our experiences or what we think is happening, and there's always emotion in it.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: And when we have things like conflict or disagreement or adversity or whatever, things I'm hearing you, like techniques and that you not just in this conversation of other ones we've had, or things that I try to do too when I've gotten praised for problem solving or things like that, is because I try to bring out the objectivity of it all.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: But again, not discrediting someone's experience, emotion, you know, what have you.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I definitely don't think I was like that growing up as much, just probably because you're a child, so you don't think that way a lot culturally, like being half Chinese.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like you weren't this emotionally regulated your whole life, or I don't know that I don't, yeah.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, but at the same time, like when I think about what when I'm supposedly being told like you you handled that really well, or you, you know, I think about why is it?
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's because I'm able to make someone still feel very seen or heard while being able to bring out something that's objective.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: And when I'm not successful in that, I'm I'm seeing it because I think that person's not feeling feeling heard, right?
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to do both.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, it reminds me, I I did the there was a quiller cute like thing that happened like a couple of years ago where they turned like a bunch of us into um like trading cards.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: And what was on the trading card was like a kind of like a personality assessment for sales, right?
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: People oriented and process, I'm sorry, analytical and intuitive was literally 50-50.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like and even people oriented and process oriented, I was 57% people oriented and 43% process oriented.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: So like that's truly like it, right?
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: There is being able to balance those two.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's hard, but I guess that's how I was wired.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: No kidding.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: I uh that's something we're just even me now trying to think about which side I'm on, and I could tell you, I think earliest I was very people oriented, just obsessed with connecting with people, and they're all individuals, and you know, again, the kumbaya.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: I might have been the one leading most of the kumbaya.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: Cause that seemed, I mean, I especially earlier in my career, I would have thought Lindsay.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: I I appreciate this conversation so much.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, would love for you to just share what you're working on, where people can find you and any other relevant things.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh well, you can find me on LinkedIn.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's very easy.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I've been doing some really awesome work with um two of my large engagement clients as a fractional CRO.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, also doing some really fun work with like founders who are really more in that founder-led stage to help them through that main inflection point because it's so hard.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_02: Even if you've done it before, right?
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: Me, because they're with brands that I've either been using and or are gonna start using, um, or have, you know, and I'm being able to, I've been told, change the perception yet again, right, about salespeople or like what a brand partner can do, where it's like, I'm not just gonna talk about some random product because someone paid me some money and it was just noise in my feed, right?
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like I take a lot of pride in like it still being just as maybe entertaining or insightful or you know, value-based as any of my organic posts.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so, and now I get to get really creative.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like one of them is it's a cooking show, which is one of my favorite things to do on on LinkedIn, but also talk about big go-to-market problems and how I would solve them with Apollo.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_02: So those are like the some a lot of what I've been working on that haven't, you know, they're gonna start coming out soon.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, again, you can see them on LinkedIn.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, come join us on LinkedIn.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: Every everything that we do kind of seems to funnel back there.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, for good reason.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: Lindsay, thank you so much for the conversation.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: Appreciate the time and to everyone joining.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: Appreciate you as well.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.