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How To Win Over Skeptical Clients · Speak In Flow

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(Transcribed by TurboScribe. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Welcome to the Speak and Flow podcast where
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we help CEOs and their leadership teams strengthen
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communication so they can move together with more
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clarity, alignment, and purpose, because I believe communication
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is not just a soft skill.
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It is how your leadership team drives the
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growth of your company.
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Today's topic is about why do great companies
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get overlooked?
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In our society and culture of information overload,
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it's not enough just to have a fantastic
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product or even amazing case studies.
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We need more than that to stand out.
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Joining me for this juicy topic is Borja
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Kwan.
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He has more than two decades of experience
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helping companies to grow through strategic marketing, client
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experiences, and performance advertising.
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He's a co-founder of 415 Digital.
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Borja uses thoughtful, result-oriented approaches to help
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organizations grow in a meaningful and sustainable way.
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I'm so excited to dive into this conversation.
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Welcome, Borja.
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Hey, Melinda.
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Thanks for having me.
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Hi, it's so good to just dive into
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this conversation.
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I'm excited to get started.
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The first question I'm going to ask today
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is, there is a busy leader out there
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who has stopped to listen to this episode.
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What do you hope could change in this
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leader's life if the person takes into account
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all the things that we are going to
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talk about?
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Yeah, I think I would hope that they
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come out of this with a better understanding
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of how important it is to really align
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with clients and understanding what matters to clients
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when you're working in a professional services environment
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as we are.
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That really requires you to spend time with
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your team.
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They come out of this really with a
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clear understanding of what it means to have
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strong communication, strong relationships with customers.
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I love that because when you say that
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you would like people to have better communication
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or relationships with clients, the first thing I
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think of, oh, you have to meet with
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the clients more.
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But you said, well, you know, you have
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to actually talk more with your team.
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So I'd like to dive into that.
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And before we get into that, for the
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audience, can you tell them more about what
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you do at 415 Digital and what excites
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you today?
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Yeah, I'm one of the co-founders of
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the agency.
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We opened our doors about nine years ago
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in 2017, and we essentially help businesses scale
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by way of digital advertising, specifically on Google,
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Meta, LinkedIn, Pinterest, and a few other platforms.
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So we're essentially media buying, buying advertising on
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those sites to help them acquire customers.
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And in addition to media buying, we're also
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helping them design ads to support their social
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marketing media campaigns.
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And you've been doing this quite a bit
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for a while.
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And so how has the landscape changed?
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Is it exciting?
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Is it more common?
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It is.
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Yeah, I joined the industry in 98, which
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for context, at the time, Google was less
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than one years of age.
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So it was a long time ago, the
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internet was a relatively nascent concept.
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And I would say, of course, yes, it's
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changed in the last, you know, 27 years.
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And I would say, in many ways, it's
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gotten, I would say, more competitive, more complicated,
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more entries, you know, more entrance into kind
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of the digital marketing ecosystem with a lot
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of other platforms, right?
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That are now being sort of, I guess,
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buying for advertising dollars.
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But at the end of the day, I
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think, well, there's there's a lot of change.
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And now with AI, you had asked me
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kind of what am I excited about?
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I'm excited about having an agency in, you
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know, 2026, because I think there's an immense
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amount of opportunity.
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As a founder of a performance marketing agency,
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a lot of ad dollars out there.
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A lot of companies need the services that
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we provide, we're in a sort of a
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period where AI is, is really the hottest
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topic.
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And we as an agency are embracing AI
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and, and using it to sort of supplement
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the service that we provide our clients, not
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that it's replacing or displacing our team, but
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it's something that a tool that they're incorporating
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into their day to day to allow them
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to be more efficient and potentially remove tasks
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that are more administrative in nature.
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So they can, in exchange, focus on building
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client relationships and really focusing on revenue generating
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activity.
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So really exciting time to be in this
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space.
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Yeah, no, I love that you've been in
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the space for so many years, and you
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can then take forward all your experiences to
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move into the next era of especially with
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AI.
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And so you would think like having this
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background of knowledge of where we've come from
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before to today, I think of advertising marketing
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as more cost effective for companies more than
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ever before, because we can reach so many
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more people, we have so many more platforms,
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but yet great companies, really good companies are
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still getting overlooked.
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And why do you think that that is
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happening?
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Yeah, I mean, I think you said this
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in the introduction, which is, it is not
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enough to have a great product or service,
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right?
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I think when you're doing the marketing, it's
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a lot about optics, right?
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Case studies, sales collateral, a nice looking website
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that says all the right things.
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And that gets people interested, but ultimately, in
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order to win business today in 2026, if
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you're a marketing agency, you need more than
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that.
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I think that's sort of a basic thing
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that you need to have to be at
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all considered by an advertiser.
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I think, you know, a lot of companies
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get overlooked a lot because of kind of
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the inner workings of that agency or that
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business.
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I think, you know, there's sort of perception
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versus reality.
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I think oftentimes, you know, we might think
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a client likes the things that we are
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doing, or we may think a client is
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doing a good job.
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But in fact, that isn't the case, right?
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We say, oh, wow, this client is really
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happy.
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You know, we had a call, it went
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well, they didn't say anything was wrong.
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So the assumption is that things are going
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well, right?
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But I think oftentimes what you will come
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to realize, if you really dig deep and
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you ask the right questions, is that oftentimes
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there's misalignment, right?
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There are probably a lot of clients that
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you're working with who you might think are
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happy with your service, but in reality are
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not.
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And the reason they're not is because you've
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never asked or the reason you don't know
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that is because you've never asked them the
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simple question.
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You've never actually spent time, you've never given,
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you know, survey your clients or just had
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a conversation with them.
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And so I think oftentimes, you know, a
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lot of companies are overlooked because they don't
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do a really good job of understanding these
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things and sort of what it takes to
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build a good relationship and earn a customer's
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trust.
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And it's a lot around communication and the
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way that you communicate and the frequency in
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which you communicate.
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And most importantly, what you are communicating to
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your client.
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Yeah, tell me more about that.
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So you mentioned earlier to have really good
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client relationships, you're going to go to your
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team to be responsible on communicating what to
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the client.
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So tell me more about what you see
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people doing that's wrong.
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Yeah, so we spend a lot of time
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in training and development as a professional services
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organization.
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Ultimately, clients measure us on two things.
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Number one, it's the results that we generate
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for them, which is really helping them grow
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more revenue, more customers.
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But in addition to that, it's the relationship
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that we have with them, you know, and
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it's important in our business to have a
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good relationship with your client.
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Because if you do not have a good
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relationship, and the results are not good, you
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oftentimes will not get a second chance.
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If the results don't meet expectations, but the
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relationship is exceptional.
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Oftentimes, they'll give you another chance.
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So it's really important to do both.
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Obviously, hitting their numbers is number one, but
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you should really be aiming for both of
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those things.
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And so we spend a lot of time
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on developing our team soft skills, really working
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with them on account management.
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What does that mean?
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When you're working with a customer, what is
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important, right?
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You know, for us, we always say day
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one, when we work with a client, or
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we're onboarding them, it's sitting down with them
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and understanding from them, how do they measure
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us as a vendor?
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What is the success metric or KPI that
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they look at in order to determine if
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this is a good vendor relationship or not?
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Because we are an expenditure on the P
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&L for them.
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So I always want to know, how do
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you view this as successful?
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What is it that I need to be
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looking at?
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So I just can check at any given
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time that this is working well, right?
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And then we want to establish what those
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goals are, what the KPIs are, and then
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we can sort of monitor that, right?
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And so that's part of it.
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It's kind of the numeric side of things.
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How do we sort of know we're doing
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well or not?
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But then in addition to that is in
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business and when you're building great relationships in
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your personal, professional life, how do relationships flourish
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or prosper?
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It's usually because you're doing a good job
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of communicating with each other, right?
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If you're not good at the communication, usually
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relationships fall apart, right?
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In your personal life.
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And this really carries over to business.
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It's the same idea.
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We're dealing with humans or we're working with
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human beings every day.
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So really, the art of communication, the ability
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to communicate effectively clearly is so important in
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our business because I've come to realize whenever
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there's an issue with a client, I'm usually
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finding that the friction point is tied to
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bad communication or non-existing communication, right?
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And so what that means is we have
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to know what our clients want to know
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about.
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We have to make sure that they are
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aware of all the things that we're doing
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for them because it's not their job to
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know all the things that we're doing.
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They have many other responsibilities.
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They have many other priorities.
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So for us, it's really understanding, okay, what
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is the information that they want us to
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provide to them?
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At what frequency?
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And then we need to be really good
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at doing that.
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Right.
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Oh, I love that.
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I know it is quite nuanced, depending on
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the client, but I think your overall intention
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is what does a client want to hear,
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right?
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And then also when you do communicate the
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what they want to hear, you also have
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to have the right communication skill, meaning when
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you say skill, it means like the nuance
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of listening and connecting, you know, and when
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I'm saying the things that they want to
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hear, whether it's the number or the outcome,
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am I using it from a connection standpoint,
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right?
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Am I connecting to the client?
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And that's huge because you could just say
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the number and say, oh, I told them
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the number, but if the client didn't feel
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that sense of connection that you care, then
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the relationship is broken or not.
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It has, yeah, you wrote it.
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Yeah, exactly.
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I mean, it's really getting validation along the
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way, too, from the client, right?
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You know, like I want feedback is what
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I'm providing you today valuable to you.
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And then I want to revisit that every
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periodically.
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I want to say, hey, you know, it's
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been four weeks.
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Does this information still matter to you?
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Or do we need to change it to
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something else that maybe now is more important
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to you?
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So it's like making sure that you're always
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asking the client or giving them the opportunity
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to give you feedback and, and also is
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the information I'm providing you making sense?
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Don't just assume because sometimes people aren't going
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to raise their hand and ask a question.
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So I like to just get sort of
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validation along the way.
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Do you have any questions?
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Is this clear?
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You know, is there something missing?
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Have I not giving you something that's important
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to you?
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Have the priorities changed?
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It's really just having the ability to, to
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always know kind of what is important because
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that that's, you know, that changes from time
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to time.
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And also, what we've learned is it's not
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a one size fits all approach when it
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comes to client services or customer service or
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working with clients is every client is is
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different.
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They have a different set of experience.
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They have a different list of priorities.
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They like to be communicated to differently.
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So it's really understanding for each client what
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it is for them, right?
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Because we've oftentimes reported or provided reports or
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updates to clients that they never read or
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cared to read because it wasn't something they
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wanted.
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We just assumed because we did it for
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another client that this is what they wanted.
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And that isn't really the right approach.
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It has to be bespoke.
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It has to be custom.
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It has to be, hey, this is, this
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is a different client than the other client.
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I need to go through the same process
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I did with them and just start over.
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Right?
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So it's, it's understanding that, you know, you
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really have to cater to that individual who
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may have a different set of requirements for
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the way that you communicate with them and
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the information that you communicate with them and
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the frequency that you communicate with them.
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Would you say that this is what sets
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you apart?
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Like I would say, yeah, I think it's
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one of the competitive differentiators.
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I think, you know, we're in a highly
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commoditized space.
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I think there are a lot of people
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that do what we do can talk about
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all the great clients they've worked with and
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the amount of money they managed.
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And we have all of that, but I
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think ultimately no different than when I go
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to a restaurant or I stay at a
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hotel or I'm on an airline, you know,
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and I have an example of this and
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over the weekend where I was staying at
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a hotel and I made a request and
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that request was very detailed and they came
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through and delivered.
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And I sent the general manager of that
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property an email yesterday and I said, Hey,
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I want you to know, I made this
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request, which is a non-standard request.
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They did that.
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And that to me is what made that
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stay memorable.
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It wasn't housekeeping.
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It wasn't food and beverage.
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It wasn't the pool.
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It was that little detail.
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So I think in our business, it really
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is about, you know, the experience a client
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has in their interactions with us.
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It's, you know, trying to create that connection,
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make them feel like we care more than
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someone else and that we take this seriously,
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right?
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The profession that we are in and that
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we're going to go above and beyond, because
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I think a lot of people, you know,
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there's a lot of agencies out there and
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some are great.
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And unfortunately some are not great, but really
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it's all about like what I found is
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just connecting with that client and making them
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feel that that experience is unique with 415
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digital.
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And by unique, I mean, Hey, these guys
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really take the time to understand our business.
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They ask the right questions.
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They do the homework.
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They are prepared for every meeting.
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They follow up with a list of notes
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and action items.
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They're very organized and structured.
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They have a very formal process in terms
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of systems and things like that.
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And people really like that.
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You know, the discipline comes across.
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Oh yeah.
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I can see that.
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I can sense that also within you, the
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way that you have laid it out too.
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And so how do you also communicate that
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to the external, your clients, external new clients?
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Yeah, it's hard.
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Yeah.
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Well, I guess there are two, it depends.
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Is it a inbound or is it a
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lead that came from inbound or is it
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outbound?
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Inbound is usually, Hey, Melinda referred a customer
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to 415 digital and Melinda spoke highly of
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us.
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So this prospect is already warm.
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So they believe her because they trust her
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and she's credible.
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So already that's a different approach.
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Those folks, you've vetted for them, right?
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So that's a little bit different for where
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it becomes really challenging is if it's not
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a referral, if it's just someone that we
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have gotten through our outbound efforts, they've never
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heard of us.
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They've responded to a cold email that we
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sent them.
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And that's when you really have to try
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to create differentiation in what is a very
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busy competitive space.
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And usually with someone who's been burned by
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an agency and has had a bad experience,
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right?
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Because you're already fighting that uphill battle.
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And it's understandable for them to feel that
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way.
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So we immediately or I immediately sympathize with
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them.
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Yeah.
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You know, and I say, Hey, that's extremely
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frustrating.
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You work with an agency who promised all
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these things and they didn't deliver.
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I can only imagine how frustrating that is.
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It isn't the first time I've heard it.
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And you basically try to explain with them
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how it would be different with you.
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And then really the only way to have
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success in that process.
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And even if you do this, you're still
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not going to bat a thousand is to
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deliver some value free to them.
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And that value that you deliver to them
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has to give them a sense of what
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it would be like to work with you
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before they work with you before they sign
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a contract or, or, or commit.
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So for me, my approach is always give
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them something as a deliverable that will give
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them a taste of what the experience will
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less with us will be like so that
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they can kind of get a glimpse.
19:35
Okay.
19:35
These guys are really thoughtful.
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They're academic in their approach.
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They take time.
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They really understand our business.
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You know, they, they've spent a lot of
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time without us even committing to anything to
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kind of do this for us.
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And that's kind of one way that we,
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we try to spend a lot of time
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upfront with those types of prospects by doing
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work for free.
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And it doesn't always work because sometimes they
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just want that and they, they, they still
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don't work with you, but it's really the
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only way you're going to try to get
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trust from someone who has never known you
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before.
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Right.
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Oh yeah.
20:13
Yeah.
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Well, that just speaks to the amazing company
20:16
that you are to be able to offer
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some, some support to, to clients who are
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interested and, and to show that what you
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can do.
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Right.
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And so, um, and to do it, even
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if you're, you're not certain if they're going
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to say yes, sure.
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So that's, uh, that's amazing that you do
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that to build that trust, you know, get
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that opportunity.
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And so, and, um, so I mean, I
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hear a lot about communicating, communicating consistently, communicating
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to just a cold lead, to a warm
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lead, all the way to clients, um, that
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are already in your world and having that
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consistent communication across the board.
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So for organizations, um, that just think of
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communication, and it could be fragmented.
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They may not have, um, it's so consistent.
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What would be possible for companies if they
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really thought about communication with a purpose, right?
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We're and it's streamlined all the way from
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marketing sales to client fulfillment, um, and experience
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and sustainability.
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What if that whole thorough line was consistent
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in the way we shared our messages and
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the way we acted upon our messages and
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the way our clients receive our messages what
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impact could that make for organizations?
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Oh, it would be so nice.
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I know.
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Wow.
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Everything you said sounds perfect.
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I mean, uh, is that reality?
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Um, you know, you're, you're not looking for
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perfection because I think perfection, uh, gets in
21:45
the way of good and it's oftentimes like
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very difficult to do what you just said,
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right?
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But, uh, obviously the most successful businesses or
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brands do exactly what you just said, right?
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Uh, there's a lot of consistency across the
21:59
board and that requires a lot of investment
22:01
in education and, uh, uh, you know, training
22:06
and development and all of those things, right?
22:08
To make sure that everybody's sort of singing
22:11
the same tune, right?
22:12
So I think for us, we, we do
22:15
spend a lot of time as a team
22:17
talking about these things, right?
22:19
Like, what do we want the client's experience
22:21
to be?
22:21
What is our mission?
22:23
Uh, you know, what are, um, uh, the
22:26
expectations clients have of us?
22:28
Like we really try to be as transparent
22:30
as we can to the different groups within
22:33
the organization.
22:34
And we're not Apple.
22:35
We're not a big company.
22:37
We're a small company.
22:38
Um, so it's a lot easier to do
22:41
when you only have 20 something people in
22:43
your organization.
22:44
This isn't an organization with thousands of employees.
22:47
So I don't want to make it sound
22:49
like, um, doing it at this size is,
22:52
is a monumental lift.
22:54
But at the end of the day, it
22:56
still requires effort and in some level of
22:59
formality.
23:00
But yeah, what we try to do is
23:01
just everybody, uh, there's a lot of transparency
23:04
within the organization.
23:05
We spend a lot of time together having
23:07
these conversations in terms of what we want
23:09
the messaging to be, what we want the
23:11
customer experience to be.
23:12
We're very specific with, Hey, in terms of
23:15
comms, what do we want you to be
23:18
communicating with the clients?
23:20
What frequency even most recently, maybe two months
23:23
ago, we introduced one new thing where we
23:26
made it a requirement for our, our account
23:29
managers to send one win per week to
23:34
each of their clients.
23:36
It didn't need to be anything huge.
23:39
It could be a small victory, something that
23:42
you want to highlight every week on a
23:44
Friday to your client.
23:45
It actually doesn't need to be a Friday.
23:47
It just was a requirement that, Hey, once
23:49
a week, in addition to all the other
23:51
comms, emails, Slack, zoom, uh, weekly calls, whatever
23:56
it is.
23:56
I want you to send one email to
23:58
your client highlighting one win.
24:00
Yeah.
24:01
Right.
24:02
Even that to me is, is important.
24:04
And we rolled that out, you know, eight
24:07
years into the business, eight and a half
24:09
years into the business.
24:09
And these are things that you're constantly trying
24:11
to experiment with and, and you're learning new
24:14
approaches to, to, to, to working with clients.
24:17
And, and also I always say, it might
24:20
be that some clients delete that message, never
24:24
read it, but that's okay.
24:25
That's not the point.
24:26
We're still going to do it because we
24:28
do know a lot of clients will value
24:30
it and, and, and read it.
24:31
And we've gotten a lot of feedback from
24:33
clients.
24:33
These are great.
24:34
Keep them up.
24:35
So that's kind of good validation points.
24:39
So like, even things like that and, and,
24:40
and introducing other ways to connect with clients,
24:44
share information that we think is, is, is
24:46
interesting to them.
24:48
Also, again, another, you know, another thing I
24:52
say to our team is it's really on
24:54
us to pat ourselves on the back.
24:57
Our clients aren't always going to sing our
24:58
praises and that's okay.
25:00
We're, we're the ones who are providing the
25:03
service.
25:03
So oftentimes you only hear from a client
25:05
if things are not going well.
25:08
Sometimes we have great clients that praise us
25:11
too, but more often than not, you know,
25:14
it's the service business, right?
25:16
And so what I tell our team is
25:17
it's really up to us to highlight all
25:20
the great things we're doing, you know, all
25:23
the great things that we've done, whether they're
25:26
small, medium, or large, they all count.
25:29
So I really encourage the team and it's
25:33
not something that people are very comfortable with.
25:35
If you can believe it, they don't like
25:38
it because they think it's bragging or they're
25:41
paying themselves a compliment.
25:43
And I learned a long time ago early
25:45
in my career that it's, it's up to
25:48
you to highlight all the great things you're
25:50
doing because everybody else is too busy too.
25:52
And it's, it's really your job, right?
25:55
As much as we all want a manager
25:56
and a client to praise us all the
25:58
time, it's just not realistic.
26:00
So I was taught early, Hey, if you
26:02
did something great, make it known.
26:05
And I, and, and if you're worried about
26:07
it coming across as bright, believe me, nobody
26:09
on the client side or your managers, like
26:12
if anybody ever said they were, I always
26:14
tell my team, if you come to me
26:16
every day and tell me you're doing great
26:17
things, believe me, I will never say to
26:19
myself in my head, this person is so,
26:22
all they do is brag about what they
26:24
do.
26:24
I'd be like, this is great.
26:26
Give me more.
26:27
I thrive on that.
26:28
Yes.
26:28
Yes.
26:29
Yes.
26:29
Yes.
26:29
Yeah.
26:29
I agree.
26:30
I agree because we're making progress.
26:33
It's positive.
26:34
We need positive energy.
26:36
We need positive energy.
26:38
And it may be that it might not
26:39
just be an update.
26:40
I did x, y, z, like what is
26:42
the shift that we're making?
26:44
What is the progress that we're making that
26:45
keep on giving me more, not just an
26:47
update of your activities.
26:50
Exactly.
26:50
And it could be something that isn't good
26:52
news, but Hey, by the way, I identified,
26:55
yeah, this is, this is broken, but, but
26:58
I identified it before the client did.
27:00
So I wanted to let the client know
27:01
and, and here's the fix that we're working
27:03
on.
27:04
And here's when it's going to be done.
27:05
Yeah.
27:06
Like, you know, because that tells me that
27:08
people are looking out for clients and they're
27:10
getting ahead of it.
27:12
And when it comes to me, when I'm
27:13
the customer and someone does it, I'm like,
27:15
Oh my God, I, you know, my, my
27:18
accountant, Oh, I noticed this, this, this problem
27:20
in the books.
27:21
Oh, I, I, Oh, I wouldn't have known
27:23
that.
27:23
Thank you for being another set of eyes
27:25
for me.
27:25
So it just also reassures me that they
27:28
are looking at these things in our detail
27:30
oriented.
27:31
So the update doesn't always have to be,
27:33
we hit a, you know, a milestone or
27:35
a new record day or something.
27:37
It could just be like you said, it
27:39
could be anything, right?
27:40
It's just, it's not a task per se.
27:42
It's just, here's something that I think is
27:44
meaningful and worthy of communicating to you and
27:46
why.
27:48
Yeah.
27:49
Well, it sounds like you're doing a lot
27:51
of at least intentional, like you're creating good
27:53
habits at four 15 digital, you know, you
27:57
said you're small, you're 20, you know, 20,
27:59
but it's still like you're creating these good
28:01
habits so that you can scale effectively so
28:03
that all of these good habits, you take
28:05
it forth as you continue to scale the
28:07
company, which is so important.
28:09
You have to.
28:09
Yeah.
28:10
You know, developing these habits and being consistent
28:13
with the habits is, is really important and
28:17
honestly easier said than done.
28:19
It requires constant work and we've made mistakes
28:23
along the way and we're just trying to
28:25
iterate and get better.
28:26
Right, right.
28:28
No, that's the best way to do it
28:29
because you're iterating and getting better with the
28:31
clients that you have and keeping them in
28:33
mind.
28:33
One last question.
28:38
That was so amazing.
28:39
That's so true.
28:40
What you just said.
28:41
And so this last question is if the
28:44
company, when organizations take all of this consistent
28:47
communication, purposeful communication to count as a scale,
28:51
what could that do for the legacy of
28:53
the company?
28:54
So what could this do for the legacy
28:55
of your company?
28:57
I mean, for me, it, you know, my
28:58
legacy is if someone talks about my company
29:03
in a favorable way that we doing business
29:07
with 415, they're ethical, they're hardworking, they're results
29:11
oriented, they helped my business grow.
29:15
Those are, those are the things that I
29:17
want to leave behind is, you know, the
29:19
reputation we have and that these customer experiences
29:23
were memorable and that we actually made an
29:26
impact.
29:28
And I think all of these things that
29:29
we're talking about are what allow you to
29:31
create those outcomes and leave that type of
29:33
legacy.
29:34
Exactly.
29:35
When, cause it's not when you're in the
29:36
room speaking about it, it's when the people
29:38
that are around you, your team, your clients
29:40
are speaking about it.
29:42
That is what sets the legacy.
29:45
Well, I, I am so glad that we
29:47
had this chance to talk.
29:48
I thought it was very powerful, rich with
29:51
so many wonderful insights and appreciate your time,
29:54
Borja.
29:57
My pleasure.
29:58
Thanks for having me on.