Latest / Legal Late Night / Practicing at the Top of Your License & The Future of Legal Intake with Joey Organisciak

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Practicing at the Top of Your License & The Future of Legal Intake with Joey Organisciak · Legal Late Night

• Jared Correia (00:00): Hello everybody. We've got to show the promises to be at least mildly interesting for your listening and watching enjoyment. I'm your host, Jared Correia. I'm the CEO of Red Cave Law Firm Consulting. For the monologue, we're talking about best practices for delegating, which will allow you to practice at the top of your law license. In the interview is Joey Organisciak, certainly our most Polish guest ever and the CEO of Case Compass. In the counter program, we've got the wheel of justice lying in wait for Joey. Now, it's time for me to tell you once again to let the processes do the work. (00:46): Attorneys and law firms should be practicing at the top of their law licenses. That means that as often as possible, lawyers should either be one, performing the substantive work they charge the most for, or two, getting that kind of work by marketing for it. In other words, being a rainmaker. It doesn't make sense to do it any other way. Everything else contributes to the bottom line in a lesser fashion. Lawyers who are grinding on administrative tasks for low level substantive tasks without bringing in new work aren't getting to upside and are leaving a lot on the table. Why would an attorney who bills out at 500 plus dollars an hour be wasting time doing work that a law firm can hire someone to do for the equivalent of like 25 bucks an hour? I mean, I'm not great with math, but I think that the lawyer in that instance is making one 20th of what she could be earning and are bringing in for the business. (01:43): Neither do you need a degree in economics to realize that that doesn't make sense. Now, this may seem like a harsh assessment of work life, but if you are running your business to make as much money as you possibly can, and why wouldn't you do that? This is how you run it. Everybody has a role, everybody sticks to that role and stays in their lane. Your job is to stay on top by being the lawyer who can drive the most business tech. If you bring in enough of it, you may not have to do much substantive work at all. If not, you're going to be sitting at your desk at year 11 wondering what the fuck happened. This financial strategy makes eminent sense, but pulling it off in real life can be a difficult thing. That's in part because organizing a law firm in this way can be challenging and in part because getting people to accept roles and putting them into a position to succeed in those roles is not an easy thing. (02:38): It's kind of an art unto itself. But the right answer to this big question is whatever offers you the most time to find high-end clients and to service their cases or eventually to have others do so is what you should be doing. In other words, this is all about delegation and the best techniques for managing that. One of my favorite fucking subjects. So here are the answers to the test, y'all. There's a very basic method for delegation that represents the starting point for running an efficient law firm. First, you should break down all of the law firm tasks. Yes, I mean all of them and place them into three categories. Number one, administrative. Number two, substantive, low level. And number three, substantive, high level. Tasks falling under category one are more susceptible to the generational workflows and that project of creating workflows and of doing the work itself should devolve to support staff in the first instance, though you should approve any finalized workflows. (03:42): Low level substantive tasks are things like form generation and completion and document drafting and initial revision, which can be spread between lawyers and staff, whereas administrative tasks should be the province of the staff exclusively. Those low level substantive tasks are also more susceptible to workflow creation and management than higher level substantive tasks, which require deeper thinking and also are more effectively leveraged using technology than those higher level substantive tasks are. These tasks can be assigned to paralegals and associate attorneys, again, who should create workflows themselves that you ultimately approve of because your most experienced personnel in those categories would be creating workflows in the first instance. Over time, those workflows can also become learning and training tools and new staff persons can tweak and update them as needed. If you can pull that off, now what's left are the high level substantive tasks that are essentially your highest value work, which is less susceptible to workflow management because these may not involve regular or repeatable processes. (04:57): For example, it could be the resolution of a thorny research issue or the drafting of a complex brief for a client that could create new law if litigated. When we're talking judgment calls being made by experienced practitioners, thats we're talking about the highest level tasks that you should reserve for yourself. The more creative thinking is involved, the less likely a rope procedure is viable and the more you can charge for what you do. This is the sort of work that you give to senior attorneys and the highest earners and that you should be managing if not doing yourself on a daily basis. If you arrange your delegation process structured on workflows in this fashion, you can achieve peak efficiency and maximum revenue. Now, this pathway, while making the most fiscal sense, also carries with it some significant management hurdles. This is basically nirvana if you're your turtle, the attorney at the top of the food chain. (06:02): You get to live the optimal lawyer's work life in that you're engaged in novel projects on a regular basis or actively seeking to acquire more of that sort of work by networking with interesting people. Meanwhile, senior and junior attorneys underneath you and paralegals may grumble about doing the grunt work while everyone else gets the credit. And that particular conundrum can be even worse at an administrative level in par because you can't share fees with non-lawyer staff. This means that the biggest challenge for law firms seeking to establish stringent workflows is not putting together a task and delegating them, it's making sure that everyone is reasonably happy with what they're doing and figuring that part of it out, unfortunately, is also something that you're not taught in law school. There are some keys to ensuring that once you've got workflows in place, your employees are as happy as they can be in their roles, and those include keeping them informed of the general financial health of the law firm and also making them feel invested in the processes in place. (07:05): That's why allowing employees to draft their own workflows and to become power users of the software that you allow them to implement those workflows in goes a long way to improving employee satisfaction and getting folks to feel like they have a unique part to play. It'll help with buy-in. Holding regular meetings, even daily standup meetings means that you won't be sideswiped by any undercurrent of dissatisfaction of which you are not more or less immediately aware. This is why law firms that grow to a certain size hire human resources personnel who are not lawyers and also why some innovative law firms are making the move to hire C-suite level personnel too, because they understand the delicate equations involved in maximizing revenue and happiness somewhat simultaneously. And this is one of the reasons why it's important to move on to dividing an incentive structure that works for attorneys and non-attorneys right after you've settled on your workflow structures, because the best way to keep people invested is to allow them to invest some more money that they get from you. (08:05): Lawyer bonuses can be easier to figure out because you can directly share revenue with them, but don't just tap out there because there are ways to deliver incentive payments to staff that are not directly tied to revenue, like a bonus for closing leads or a bonus for efficiency of operational segments. But you sort of knew that this was not going to be completely solved by workflows, right? It's been said, more money, more problems. When you've reached a distribution stage, that's a good problem to have. So once you've set up your workflows effectively and set up your incentive structure, go out and look for your next problem to solve. But let me now incentivize you to return for the interview segment of this podcast as we get deeper into the legal late night with Joey Granischek of Case Compass, in which we address everything from AI to raccoon penises. (09:02): It's all next and then some. Well, I've effectively run out of things to say, which is awkward because this is a podcast. I'm just going to floss my teeth. I'll show you some technique, maybe some floss recommendations, maybe even bring out the water pick. Actually, that sounds like a lot of work. Let's just interview our guests instead. Our guest today is, I'm going to attempt it, Joey Organisciak. How did I do? Joey Organisciak (09:35): We're close. Organ-ease-chuck. Jared Correia (09:37): Organ-ease-chuck. Oh my God, I never went Chuck. Joey Organisciak (09:40): C-I-A-K, Chuck. Yeah. Jared Correia (09:43): Now I'll never forget. Joey Organisciak (09:46): Yeah. Our Jared Correia (09:46): Guest today is Joey Organisciak, who is the CEO at Case Compass. Welcome to the show, Joey. Joey Organisciak (09:53): It's great to be here. Thanks, Jared. Jared Correia (09:55): Hopefully Evan leaves and I screw up. He will because he's vindictive like that. I appreciate you coming on, man. You've done so much shit in your career. It's impressive. I wanted to do a little career retrospective with you to start with if we can, because I was on your LinkedIn. I want to go way back. You want to go way back. One of your first real jobs it looked like was working for Apple with Steve Jobs was still kicking around. What was that like? Joey Organisciak (10:33): I remember at that time, it's a year after the iPhone came out and a year before - This is Jared Correia (10:39): 2012? Am I right? Joey Organisciak (10:42): 2008. Jared Correia (10:42): 2008? Oh Joey Organisciak (10:43): Shit. Jared Correia (10:44): Okay. Yep. Keep going. Joey Organisciak (10:45): So it's a year after the iPhone came out and about a year and a half before the iPad came out. And the organization as a whole there was just an amazing electric place and culture to be in. You had people there that were fresh faces like me. You had people there that have been there for 20 plus years and you definitely knew something revolutionary was still happening and just happened with the iPhone and the lead up to the iPad was just. It was just something. I don't know, it's weird. And maybe it's because I drank the Kool-Aid there, right? But I just learned so much and just lifelong friends and just I think really helped me prepare for future career endeavors. One of those is - Jared Correia (11:43): We'll get to all Joey Organisciak (11:43): Those, Jared Correia (11:43): Don't worry. Joey Organisciak (11:44): Yeah. But no, it was amazing. I thoroughly. Yeah, it's just stuff that you just don't forget. I can remember every single holiday there, every single. It's just crazy over those five years. Yeah. Jared Correia (11:58): So you were working out there on their campus? Yeah, Joey Organisciak (12:01): Back and forth. Yeah. Yeah. Jared Correia (12:04): You were there when the iPad came out, is that right? Joey Organisciak (12:08): Yeah. Yeah. Were Jared Correia (12:09): People like, "This is going to blow your mind. It's called an Joey Organisciak (12:13): IPad." Yeah, it's called an iPad, right? I think you had - No, Jared Correia (12:18): No, not iPods. We already did that. This Joey Organisciak (12:20): Is a new thing. Yeah. It's a new thing. And you had two camps, right? You had people that thought that this is going to change drastically what people do, and you had people like, "This is just horrible. We saw PC tablets 10 years ago, 15 years ago. They tried this. It's horrible." Arguably, I don't think the iPad as a product ever got to a peak, I don't think, and I don't work for them anymore. I don't think it is or was revolutionary as the iPhone was, but it definitely has a niche. Yeah. There's a niche for it. I have one, right? I play trombone in a jazz group and I use it for all my sheet music. Outside of that, I don't know when I pick it up. It's my laptop and my iPhone. Jared Correia (13:10): I know. Yeah. It's kind of been outstripped by the iPhone, but I have an iPad too. I'll pick it up every now and then. If I'm sitting on the couch, I'm like, "I'll just Google this thing or get on a safari." That's really interesting. So the music stuff, I'm glad you talked about that because we can segue into. You worked in the music industry also because why not? Joey Organisciak (13:31): Yeah. So collegiately, academic-wise, music, education and composition as well as computer science, but I wanted to be - I mean, I can see Jared Correia (13:47): How that dovetails, right? Because you need Joey Organisciak (13:49): To know Jared Correia (13:49): Some of the things. It's all structured, Joey Organisciak (13:50): Right? It's math. At the end of the day, it's math. It is all math and logic. But yeah, no, I worked for a music publishing company for a couple years, writing, composing, an ensemble, concert band, marching band pieces. And I still do that. Jared Correia (14:11): That's an interesting niche though, marching band stuff. Were you just like, "I'm interested in this," or are they like, "Hey, Joey, here's your assignment. You're the marching band guy." Joey Organisciak (14:19): No, definitely interested. So I was always a big marching band guy when I was in high school and college. I marched drum bugle corps as well, and I write for a really good handful of competitive marching bands still around the United States. Jared Correia (14:34): Really? Joey Organisciak (14:35): Yeah. All right. Jared Correia (14:36): So what makes a good marching band? Are you doing original compositions? So Joey Organisciak (14:40): It depends, right? Because you're going to run into groups depending on what part of the country you're writing for and what their competition circuits look like. You could be one day writing an Earth, Wind & Fire show or the next day doing an original composition about the theory of glass and how glass is made, right? That's crazy. It's nuts, right? Marching band these days has really turned into Cirque and Broadway on a football field. Jared Correia (15:13): That's wild. So are people like, "Hey, we want you to write a composition about the history of glass," or are you like, Joey Organisciak (15:21): "I've got an Jared Correia (15:21): Idea." Joey Organisciak (15:23): Listen, it's so interesting in those parts because you're just one person on the. They call them creative teams, creative teams there, right? So I'm the music guy. There's somebody else specifically around choreography and visual design and somebody who really comes up with the storyline, creative director. And so they go ham on some of these things. So it's like, "Okay, I'm going to write a show on glass. What do I do?" Well, the first thing I do is think about. Well, the easy thing is like, oh shit, Philip Glass is out there. So I'll use some of his compositions. So really angulars, I'll rearrange some of his stuff, and then I'll then sit at the piano and start coming up with, all right, glass, sand, right? Sand. Frigian scale, Egypt, sand. Okay, I can use a Frigian scale and start to do that, tie it into glass, fire. (16:14): All right. I may want to include some Spanish or Latin elements, different type of scale. This Jared Correia (16:21): Sounds really fun. Joey Organisciak (16:23): Fun and frustrating, right? Jared Correia (16:26): I feel like it's funny. When I think of a marching band, I think of them doing popular music pieces, like that Homer Simpson scene in The Simpsons where he is like, "No new crap, just taking care of business." Yep, exactly. That's my marching band stuff right there. Exactly. Like Fleetwood Mac or some shit. Joey Organisciak (16:43): Yeah. And there's groups that do that, right? Especially when you go down towards the south, you got Southern show bands and it's all popular music and you're playing, like I said, Earth, Wind and Fire is huge down south with show bands and whatnot. So it's crazy. Jared Correia (17:00): I want to hear a little tusk. I feel like that would sound really good for the marching band. For Joey Organisciak (17:04): A marching band. Jared Correia (17:07): This is why I like this show. We never know what we're going to talk about. I had no idea you did this. Okay. Let's get back to the regular shit. So before entering the legal tech space, we'll get there, I promise. I just need people to know that you're a Renaissance man first. Oh Joey Organisciak (17:21): Geez. Yo did a Jared Correia (17:22): Bunch of stuff in med tech. Joey Organisciak (17:24): Yeah. So Jared Correia (17:25): How did you get into that? Can you give me the rundown on that and then what was it like? Joey Organisciak (17:29): Yeah, so I spent almost 10 years in that. So it was right post Apple, right? Coming out Apple, you got to remember Apple overnight pretty much changed when Steve died. Despite what they were to tell you and say, and there was a lot of smart people there, there was no manual, there was no book post Steve, quote unquote. And you're talking about changeover. I can't tell you how many managers I had within a one year period towards the end. It got really bad. And I'm like, "Okay, now we're turning to real corporate life and this is not what I want." So I left. It was what I call my first retirement or first sabbatical from real life at age 28, 29. It's tremendous. Yeah. And I got linked up with a very smart individual that was in the addiction recovery space that ran some addiction recovery centers, had his master's in healthcare. (18:39): He actually used to be in, story for a different day, but he used to be a ADA in New York City, Manhattan in the 80s, which those are some crazy stories. So we got some legal Jared Correia (18:48): Mixed in here. Joey Organisciak (18:48): I'm sure. Jared Correia (18:49): Yeah. Joey Organisciak (18:50): A lot Jared Correia (18:50): Of cocaine, I hear. Joey Organisciak (18:53): But he completely left that world and went to healthcare. So I got linked up with him through Mutual. We just started talking. He's like, "Hey, your tech background, we're actually in the middle of this clinical trial with the University of Wisconsin-Madison about. They have this piece of interesting. It was an algorithm, essentially not a piece of tech, but an algorithm that was built in a piece of very crude, high academia." I have a distaste for high academia, but I'm not anti-college or anti-high ed, but I've seen the inner workings at that level and it just is. Jared Correia (19:33): Some Joey Organisciak (19:33): Errors are put on. Yeah, yeah. Jared Correia (19:35): I get Joey Organisciak (19:36): It. So we got involved in the middle of that clinical trial to evaluate results. And then we were just like, "Why isn't this commercialized?" And we're talking crazy things like with this tech, we were able to reduce hospital. Our first big clinical trial was with a group of Vietnam vets at the VA. And you're going to hand a Vietnam vet, my dad's age, my dad's currently 71, at this time in their 60s, right? Yeah. A smartphone with an app that did many things. What do you expect is going to happen? I'll tell you what happened is with these vets that were comorbid, not just alcoholics and suffering from addiction, but they also comorbidities like obesity and stuff. Well, we reduced re-hospitalization rates by over 70% with this piece of technology. That's crazy. In the trial. We're like, "All right, we need to get this out there." So (20:32): I took a leap of faith with him, took no paycheck for a couple years, built the technology, built over a period for the first couple years, built a team up about 10 or 15 people. The next two years were about 40 people. And so I was there for about a little over eight years. He left about year three or four, so I was tasked to hiring his replace. I was a CTO, so hiring a CEO, found a CEO, worked well with him for a few years, definitely didn't see eye to eye at the end, and I think that was for many reasons, but I think there's a part where you start something. I co-founded that one other person that you realize, yeah, it's going in an okay place. You might not agree with some things, but it's not your baby anymore. And you're like, "All right, I am going to get out. (21:21): I'm going to make everybody happy. I'm going to leave because I could tell that I'm a hindrance because I got a whole engineering and product team that think of me as quote unquote dad." You're the Jared Correia (21:34): Man now. Joey Organisciak (21:35): Yeah. And I don't want to undermine the rest of the organization, especially the CEO, CFO, COO, which I wasn't doing, but when people are coming to me because they see me as the co-founder, that's great, but I'm just a CTO now. I'm really not in that role. I need to go. I definitely need to go. And that's kind of what happened. I Jared Correia (21:59): Mean, good for you to drop out when the time was right, but that sounds like super rewarding work though, what you were doing. Joey Organisciak (22:05): It was. Another part of my past I'll never forget, but that was the start of my second retirement sabbatical for a few hot minutes before. What number of Jared Correia (22:19): Retirement were you on in your last one? Seven, eight. Joey Organisciak (22:24): And then I kept with MedTech though. I got - Yeah, Jared Correia (22:28): You were at another Joey Organisciak (22:29): Company. Jared Correia (22:29): You were at two med tech companies, is that right? Joey Organisciak (22:31): Yeah. Yeah. So when I left mine, I took a break and then I got poached recruiter. Recruiters are crazy sometimes. And I finally got approached by one that was organization. It's like three or four people at the time. It wasn't an army of them, and they specifically do in healthcare and they're specifically still focused on mental healthcare. They're like, "This is a great opportunity. You can't pass this up." I was like, "What is it?" I said, no, said no, said no. And then finally six months later like, "Hey, this is still open." And it was for running the engineering team at Talkiatry, and I was at Talkiatry for two years. And again, mental healthcare, psychiatry space, tech forward, tech heavy. When I was there, they're probably at right around a hundred people. By the time I left, we were, including doctors, probably close to 400 people and just finished. (23:30): We helped raise, I think it was almost a $200 million round. That's awesome. Kind of the same thing. Seen lots of things, young CEO there, younger than me, but he came from the FinTech, not even FinTech, finance world, hedge fund. Jared Correia (23:51): We're bringing it all in here. Yeah, Joey Organisciak (23:52): Hedge fund guy and smart guy. But again, I spent two years there and it's like at that point it wasn't just like I need a break from some structure. I don't want to say structure again, but it's like I need a break from healthcare. That was now 10 years in healthcare and exhausting. A long time. Yeah. Jared Correia (24:14): And you're Joey Organisciak (24:14): Not going to. You realize at that point you can't. Can I swear? Oh yeah. You can't fucking fix it, right? I tried - You weren't Jared Correia (24:25): Able to fix healthcare? What the fuck? Well, Joey Organisciak (24:27): Here's the thing, what's nice about Talkiatry and having some really good revenue and partners there is we were able to help extend the post COVID with the administration, the post - COVID, all right, you don't need to see a doctor in person for your psychiatry meds, right? Oh yeah. I was going to say timing Jared Correia (24:47): Is good for you pretty much. We Joey Organisciak (24:49): Were at the front of that stuff. It was like 2022 coming out of the pandemic, but lots of weird regulations people didn't know. So we were in prime. They'll say, "All right, we're going to dictate how psychiatry and telepsychiatry should be." We had some competitors out there and whatnot, but when I was joining at the time, one of our competitors was actually going downhill because they were just writing prescriptions left to right for whoever and their mother and they got caught. They raised like 500 million bucks and then the next day value is worthless because that's what they were doing. It's like, "Yeah, you can't do that." What am Jared Correia (25:23): I going to do with all this Valium? Joey Organisciak (25:24): Yeah. Jared Correia (25:27): So you do that, you're in med tech. Yeah. We're on retirement number seven at this point. And now - Yeah, Joey Organisciak (25:32): Probably. Yeah. Jared Correia (25:34): We're almost to the present day, everybody, I promise. You found a dev shop basically. Yeah. Joey Organisciak (25:40): So I co-found that back actually in pandemic. So I was still at - Was it Jared Correia (25:48): Pre-pandemic, like 19 Joey Organisciak (25:50): Was when that started? Yeah, end of 19, November 2019. And it was just really, all right, we're going to help out a couple acquaintances, friends of friends do some stuff. Then all of a sudden it's like, this actually could be a real company. Oh, interesting. Let's do that. Yo didn't start it Jared Correia (26:08): As a formal business. Oh, no. Joey Organisciak (26:10): You were just like, Jared Correia (26:10): "We're messing around." The Joey Organisciak (26:12): LLC paperwork didn't go until eight months later because it's like, "Holy crap, there's people that want this and need this." And I think a lot of it was because of the pandemic, people needing a way to. For example, one of the big early first clients there was an organization for the city of Rochester, and they each year - New York. Yeah, Rochester, New York, sorry. Tens of thousands of kids need summer jobs, and usually they did all this in person, dropping off their paperwork and all that. We had to automate a virtual way to do it because it was during the pandemic. So that's one example. And it's services businesses like that. It's just referrals. They still don't do any really marketing or advertising too much. Your basic, "Here's some money, Google, advertise me." And the also frustrating thing, and I consult there now. I got them going, and it's great and everything, and I still own a little piece of it. (27:17): But services businesses, man, it's- It's tough. Jared Correia (27:21): You Joey Organisciak (27:21): Got to have a good stomach for that if you're going to do it twenty four seven. You Jared Correia (27:25): Actually have to Joey Organisciak (27:25): Deal Jared Correia (27:26): With people. Joey Organisciak (27:27): Yeah. Listen, I like people. I just had back to backs. I think people are okay. Yeah. I had back-to-backs from 8:00 AM Eastern Time this morning with just demos and trainings, because I still try to do all those things for the current company and everything to be in, because you want to show face. But yeah, I think if you're in a services company that's not focused on one thing, for that company, they do some legal tech, they still do some healthcare. They work with one of the largest auto retailers in New York State. So it's all those different types where you got a constant mindset switch. I'm not talking to attorney. Now I'm in this industry. Jared Correia (28:10): Yeah. Joey Organisciak (28:11): Exactly. And it's tough. Yeah. Jared Correia (28:14): Okay. So I want to get to the current company in a second. Yeah. Joey Organisciak (28:17): What Jared Correia (28:19): Was the process of transferring day-to-day stuff and ownership on the Sandbox Union piece? Was that difficult to do? Was that easy to do? Joey Organisciak (28:30): If you don't hoard knowledge from the get-go, it's easy. Jared Correia (28:34): This is a good lesson for everyone. Do not hoard your knowledge. Share Joey Organisciak (28:38): Your knowledge. Share your knowledge. I think early on in my career, especially going back all the way to Apple, whenever there was a new person to join the team, I wanted to hoard my knowledge because I wanted to be valuable, quote unquote, wanted to think I was valuable. I think when people hoard knowledge, it's a little bit of insecurity. And listen, that was the way it was for me because listen, everybody's replaceable, whether it's by another human or a clanker. Don't get me clankers when the robot uprising happens. You Jared Correia (29:11): Got to be good with the robots at this point. You Joey Organisciak (29:13): Got to be good with the robots. You got to be really nice. I was in the Dublin airport last week and there was a little robot delivering stuff in the airport. Oh, that's funny. And he would not get it away. I called him a clanker. I'm like, oh, I shouldn't have said that. He's going to remember that now. I like how I said he, I'm gendering robots now. His name is actually Jared Correia (29:33): Seamus. Joey Organisciak (29:33): Yeah. But yeah, it's about don't hoard the knowledge upfront. If you're starting something or even if you don't. One thing I learned is you always need to surround yourself with people a lot smarter than you, and I try to do that. Oh Jared Correia (29:49): Yes, absolutely. Okay. So present company, Case Compass. I believe you're still CEO. Yes. Can you tell people what Case Compass is and does? Joey Organisciak (30:00): Yeah, so we are a platform. So we have two products. Our first product is our intake OS that is really focused on the plaintiff side of things. So allows law firms to basically qualify, score, convert clients. It's important to know, we sit between marketing and then we don't care what you use on the backend for technology, whether it's Clio, Filevine, Litify, also three companies that are impossible to leave once you implement, possible switch. It's fair, which is listen, it's great, but we only focus on the intake portion. We're not out there trying to. We let the people that are good at selling retainers and getting those leads, marketing, let them do that. And then if you got your case management system, don't do that. We just care about the intake portion. And listen, I've met so many great people over the last two years, competitors of my space too, but over the last. (31:01): And I brag on them all the time to their face. I'm like, "Guys, why are you trying to build a case management tool? Your Litify people will never leave Litify. They just won't. So focus on what you're doing great. And if that means you're competing with me, do it. Jared Correia (31:15): It's funny you mention that. Everybody's like," Intake seems like the redheaded stepchild of legal. "I feel like people. I got an intake software. Now let me back into a case management software. Joey Organisciak (31:26): It really is that way. Are you Jared Correia (31:27): Surprised that there aren't more pure intake place? Joey Organisciak (31:31): No, I'm not because this is. And listen, being from. Healthcare has the same issue with intake, right? It is. And that's why it was a little bit easy for the transition to legal tech. You're going to come in the intake space why people like competitors to Case Compass try to branch into different things, whether it's on one side of marketing or trying to make case management tools is because you got to prove yourself on intake and it takes a long time to prove yourself on intake. I've now been, since April marked two years at Case Compass. I would say the last two months is probably some of the most growth from customer acquisition I've seen. So it took almost two years to say, "Here's intake. This is why intake's important and what are you doing today?" What most people are doing today are either automated voice, which hey, I'm not knocking automated voice, but at the end of the day, somebody needs to talk to somebody. (32:28): And we're not trying to. And we go to market - We can't be on Jared Correia (32:31): Dublin Airport robots. Joey Organisciak (32:33): Come on. Exactly. Exactly. Unless you got a sweet DoorDash order in there that I want. So intake's tough. People don't think about it. It's the redheaded stepchild. Like you said, people just don't think about it. Jared Correia (32:45): I mean, it's staggering to me because in this industry and in other industries, that's how you get your clients and convert your clients.You're literally just leaving money on the table if you're not paying attention to it. I'm surprised more people aren't on top of it. Joey Organisciak (32:59): Well, since we're focused on plaintiff firms, and you know this, your big plaintiff firms are what? They're class actions and they're PI, right? Yeah. So what's PI doing? PI is spending money, not on intake. They're spending money on billboards. They're spending money on case acquisition through channels. That's what PI does. No knocking PI. We work with some great clients that do PI and we help them, but we have to educate them. So it's not just selling the software, it's educating them on what intake actually is. And it's not Susie in the back taking phone calls and then putting them in a spreadsheet, which I would say 60 to 75% of the firms we come across that we sell to, that's what they're doing. Jared Correia (33:47): Spreadsheets. Joey Organisciak (33:49): Yeah. Jared Correia (33:49): Excel is the operating system for intake in legal. Joey Organisciak (33:53): Yeah, it is. And Jared Correia (33:54): Probably medical and other places too. Joey Organisciak (33:56): It is. It really is. Jared Correia (33:58): Anything else you want to say on Case Compass piece? I got some other things I want to ask you. Joey Organisciak (34:02): Yeah. Our second product, Dwell X, is focused on landlord-tenant, and we've seen that's probably our fastest growing sector is landlord-tenant right now just because it is not. Two things. It's not a very automated type practice and Jared Correia (34:21): It doesn't Joey Organisciak (34:21): Change. But it could be. It could be. And it's not just state to state jurisdictions. You look at county to county or court to court jurisdictions and it is tough. And maybe I'm a masochist for doing this and having a product around landlord-tenant. Jared Correia (34:37): I can't confirm. Joey Organisciak (34:39): But we see rapid growth in landlord-tenant. We have a great product for landlord-tenant, and that's all I'll say about that. Jared Correia (34:46): Do you think there are more landlord-tenant attorneys than there were, or do you think it was an underserved market? Joey Organisciak (34:53): I think it's both. I think also landlord-tenant, you have a lot of age-outs in landlord-tenant age-out or aging practices. And when people buy those practices, they tend to get rid of that practice, that side of the practice. And then state to state, we work with a firm right now in Nevada that could do up to sometimes over a thousand notices a day. So you're talking almost 30,000 30-day payment misses from people. They do it that way, but then you look at New York State at a client, they may only do 300 total a month. The volume difference is because of the approach to the law in those states, not necessarily the practice itself. It's very niche. Jared Correia (35:44): Yeah. Okay. Let's jump into it. Joey Organisciak (35:47): Okay. Jared Correia (35:47): How overinflated do you think all these fucking AI valuations are? Joey Organisciak (35:52): Yeah. Listen, I was. Can we do it? Yeah, let's do it. Jared Correia (35:58): I think it's fucking nuts. Joey Organisciak (36:01): It is. Let me back up a little bit. I was in high school during the dot-com bus, but I followed it. Being a computer guy and being. I've been programming since I was in middle school, fifth grade, super into the startup stuff even back then. I saw it. I saw pets.com, what happened. I saw cosmo.com, what happened. WebVan, who remembers WebVan if you're on the West Coast? Hello. We're Jared Correia (36:25): Getting back into the archive here. This Joey Organisciak (36:26): Is great. Yeah. So you see that. And what happened back then is you had VCs spending money or investing into companies that would then in turn invest their money into Dell HP to buy server equipment. And then they, then Dell and those people would just spend money to. It was a circular monetization strategy. Let's get forward to today. You have VCs spending money on AI companies that spend money with Amazon, Google, Microsoft for their compute. It's cloud, not physical, technically physical servers. It's the same thing. Super overvaluated, super inflated. You're starting to see. I don't know if we're going to see a giant correction all at once like we did in 2001. I think you're going to see smaller corrections. SpaceX being a really good one. At its peak in the last two months, it was 212, 211. We're back down to initial price, so it's lost almost 40% of its value. (37:37): Love that Jared Correia (37:37): Frelon Musk. Joey Organisciak (37:39): Yeah, love it for him. Oh God, that's a whole other, that's like a psyche evaluation we could do on him someday. He needs one. He needs one, but it's super inflated. Yeah. Jared Correia (37:57): Okay. So it's coming down. I think you're probably right, not all at once. I think one of the reasons it's not coming down all at once is because it's got to be propped up because it's so important to the economy right now. A lot of other stuff going for us at the moment. Joey Organisciak (38:12): We've had in the last two weeks, and you've seen this, we've had a couple scary days market-wise. And if oil prices didn't go down on those days and continue to inflate, the only thing that saved us from, I think, bigger crashes on those days from the tech sector were oil prices coming down because if that would've all happened at once, there could have been some really, really bad days. It's going to happen. I take it back. I think there might be one bad day. I don't think it's going to be as bad as 2008 or 2001, but we're going to have a bad day. Let's hope not. Yeah, let's hope not. I mean, we could Jared Correia (38:51): Be teetering on a Carter era fuel shock as well. Joey Organisciak (38:54): I think so. I think so. But yeah, listen, I unfortunately pay for five or six of these things. It's really funny because I still program, write a lot of code, I use it to the extent where I may not want to write a DB query or something like that or a new table for a database. I won't let it take into context my repos or anything like that. I don't do anything like that. I use it for best thing ever for AI, I think is notes transcribing during meetings. It's great. Love it. That's the one I use the most. It's awesome. It's awesome. Outside of that, there's other uses. But when people say, "Oh my gosh, it's so great at scraping documents and everything." I'm like, "Oh, you mean just more compute power for OCR that we've had for over 30 years?" And LLMs and great. (39:56): I was doing natural language processing at my first startup 15 years ago. We just called it machine learning and natural language processing. It's the same thing, but now compute's just cheaper. So it's, oh, it's magical now. No, it's not. And Sam Altman could take a hike with his device he's coming out with. (40:16): I feel betrayed by - Another shitty Jared Correia (40:18): Tech, bro. Joey Organisciak (40:19): Yeah. Jared Correia (40:19): Should we just list all of them? Joey Organisciak (40:21): I feel betrayed by Johnny Ive at this point for partnering with this guy. It's a mess. I can't Jared Correia (40:28): Stand Sam Altman. Joey Organisciak (40:29): Oh my gosh. It's so bad. Yeah. Jared Correia (40:31): So can we drill down on this specifically for a second? Sure. Yeah. In the legal space, you've seen companies like Harvey trying to create their own version of the frontier AI models. Because to me, that's almost an existential question for them. Because if you're a legal tech company with this bloated valuation and you get unplugged from Claude, you're just fucked. Do you have thoughts on that or is that a good Joey Organisciak (40:59): Enough Jared Correia (40:59): Summation? Joey Organisciak (41:01): Yeah, no, I think you're right. They will have to start leasing their own. They will have to build, going back to 2001, spending money on your own servers or co-locating or going directly to. And which they probably could, Google, Microsoft, Amazon saying, "All right, this." But it's not just that. They have their own frontier model as well, and they got to fine tune their frontier model. It's not saying, "Oh, everything that we train Claude to do, we can build our own frontier model based on that overnight." You can't. They're going to say they can, but they can't. And it's going to affect. If and when this happens, the people that invested so much, and I'm not talking about investors, but the law firms, I've had my own fair share of legal tech conferences this year. I'm done. I'm done for 2027 probably too. I can't get over it. (41:58): You're Jared Correia (41:58): Out. Joey Organisciak (41:59): I'm out. It's the same stuff. And I think what we hear a lot, even in our discovery and sales calls are like, "Yeah, we're going to do this with you guys. It's great and everything, but we can't do everything because we spent, invested so much money in this other tech that has not been proven and we don't see the exact ROI from it yet that we're scared for another piece of tech." It's like, "I'm not AI. We're not AI, but I totally understand." And you're going to see that a lot. You're going to see a lot of companies out there that. And I think case management companies are going to get. I think you look at somebody like Cleo or you look at somebody like Filevine and they had to go buy these smaller companies up. They already had AI type, their own mini Harveys, their case tech stuff. (42:50): Because without that- That's a good analogy, Jared Correia (42:53): Actually. I haven't Joey Organisciak (42:53): Heard anybody Jared Correia (42:54): Mention that, but yeah, Joey Organisciak (42:55): Clio's Jared Correia (42:55): Acquisition of VLEX was Joey Organisciak (42:58): Sort of like Jared Correia (42:59): The acquisition of case text. They Joey Organisciak (43:00): Had to do it. They had to do it, right? Yeah. But listen, I think who comes out great on the other side of these things, it's your classics, TR, right? They're going to be like, "Told you so, right? Give me money, please." Silicockroach. Yeah. Oh, Jared Correia (43:21): Please give me a motor lease Sapperstein Joey Organisciak (43:23): Quote. Yeah. Money, please. Yeah, yeah. That's exactly what TR's going to be like. Yeah. Oh Jared Correia (43:30): My God. I just did a parks and recreations thing on Joey Organisciak (43:33): One of our Jared Correia (43:34): Prior episodes. Don't be suspicious. Joey Organisciak (43:38): Oh gosh. Jean Ralphio, is that you? Jared Correia (43:44): I think we Joey Organisciak (43:44): Should end Jared Correia (43:45): On that now. That was good stuff. Should we end there or do you want any final thoughts before we move on to the next section? Joey Organisciak (43:51): Yeah, I just got to be smart with this AI stuff, legal tech or not. And you got to talk to other firms. Don't just talk to the product people at these places. Don't talk to the great product person at Harvey because the problem that we're getting to now is Harvey is now poaching great attorneys and great lawyers from these other things, enticing them with money to then sell something that may be not correct. And I'm not saying Harvey's not a great tool because I've seen it in practice and have used it personally at some of these firms we work with. And listen, it does pretty much what it should do, but yeah, do your own research. Jared Correia (44:33): Joey, thank you. This is a lot of fun. We covered a lot of grounds. Can you stick around for one last segment? Joey Organisciak (44:40): Sure. Jared Correia (44:41): All right. We'll be right back. Welcome back everybody. It's The Counter Program. It's a podcast within a podcast. This is a conversational space where we can address usually unrelated topics that I want to explore at a greater depth with my guests. Expect no rhyme and very little reason. Joey, what you see before you is our recurring segment called The Wheel of Justice. This is based on the wheel of drinks at Bukowski Tavern in Boston, where you spin the wheel and buy whatever drink the wheel dictates because the wheel is wise and the wheel is just. Have you ever been there? Joey Organisciak (45:20): I have not. Jared Correia (45:22): I got to go. It's great. So Joey, we're literally going to spin a wheel and I'll ask you whatever questions come up. Some of these are pop culture, random questions, and some of these are legal specific questions. So if you're ready, we've got 12 on the board. We'll get to maybe six. So Evan, if you would kindly give the wheel a spin, Evan being the. Well, on a prior episode, I said he was the Vanna White of the Wheel of Justice, but that's not true because she doesn't actually spin the wheel. It's the contestants who do. Okay. Question number one, blank slate. If you were starting a dev shop right now in the age of vibe coding, what would you do differently? Joey Organisciak (46:08): Yeah, so I'd probably hire less senior engineers up front, right? Oh, interesting. Jared Correia (46:16): Okay. Yeah. Joey Organisciak (46:17): I think from a vibe coder perspective, still I want somebody that has gone through computer science, software engineering, web and mobile tracks in school or has that experience because what we're seeing a lot of is people coming, potential clients saying, "Hey, I had a citizen developer," somebody from their company built this over the weekend, but nothing works. Can you guys fix it? It's like that takes us more time. So yeah, I would hire somebody Jared Correia (46:46): Developer. That sounds so good though. I'd like to Joey Organisciak (46:49): Be a citizen developer. Oh, that's what we call attorneys that have ChatGPT. Yeah. Jared Correia (46:54): So that's interesting. So would you try to design agents to replace coders or do you not think Joey Organisciak (47:00): They're there yet? No, I don't think we're there yet. I think we replaced a lot of the QA and testing portion. I don't think we need people specifically for that. I think we teach current engineers that haven't had the QA and testing experience how to do that in an automated fashion with agents. Yeah. Jared Correia (47:21): That's interesting you said fewer senior engineers. I figured you'd go fewer junior engineers with AI in place. Joey Organisciak (47:32): I think fewer senior - And Jared Correia (47:33): Again, Joey Organisciak (47:33): I've Jared Correia (47:33): Never Joey Organisciak (47:34): Coded anything Jared Correia (47:34): In my life. Joey Organisciak (47:36): Yeah. I think the reason why I say fewer seniors is just because I think you can go with juniors, if you get some really good juniors that have experience to vibe coding, is you can get fewer mistakes if they already have that engineering mindset. So I'm talking about juniors that are not Joe Schmo off the street. It's like, no, you're in college, you're in an intern. So yeah. Yeah. Jared Correia (48:02): All right. That was fun. Spin the wee 11, if you don't mind. We'll go to question number two. That was maybe the least exciting question. So we'll see how it goes from here. Dev stuff, right? Intake manifold. Intake manifold, question two. Another legal specific question. What's the first thing, the very first thing a law firm owner should do when adopting a CRM? Joey Organisciak (48:29): Surface any Excel spreadsheet from anybody within the firm from the last 10 to 20 years. Really? Yeah. I've been through some crazy Litify implementations and that's actually. So with Litify, it's interesting, right? They don't integrate. They choose a Salesforce partner to integrate, which I think is actually better because you have. But one of the companies that I've worked with in the past, that's the first thing that they do is they say, "Service every spreadsheet of any client data that you've had because it's unstructured probably from the last whatever that you've ever done." So Jared Correia (49:11): Is it pull the spreadsheets and then structure the data? Yeah, Joey Organisciak (49:14): Pull the spreadsheets, then structure the data. And don't structure the way, and a lot of times they will not structure it the way that you have it today, because every single spreadsheet has different columns, different names for the same fucking thing. Yeah, this Jared Correia (49:27): Sounds horrific. Joey Organisciak (49:29): Do Jared Correia (49:29): You use AI to help you once you get the data to structure it? Joey Organisciak (49:32): Yeah. Yeah. And I think they probably are. That's also why these consultants still make a lot of money and I don't. Jared Correia (49:39): I think you've done all right. Question three. Question three. Will it be another legal. I don't know the wheel decides. We could get six legal specific questions. Let's see what comes up this time. It is courting good health. I think you're going to enjoy this one, Joe. Okay. Which industry is more fucked up in your estimation? Medtech or legal tech and why? Joey Organisciak (50:05): MedTech right now. Really? Jared Correia (50:07): All right. Hear that, lawyers? I'll Joey Organisciak (50:10): Tell you why. And the only reason why I'm saying that is because of the current administration. Oh, sure. Doing a great Jared Correia (50:19): Job over there. Joey Organisciak (50:20): Doing a great fucking job, RFK, right? Keep Jared Correia (50:22): It up. Joey Organisciak (50:23): So when you're fucking something that high level up, it trickles down, right? Yeah, that's correct. The miracle drug, I think, of our generation is going to be GLP-1s. I think that it's still evolving. I think Eli Lilly is going to be. We look at 10 years, 20 years from now, one of the organizations, one of the companies that had the most profound impact on society. The benefits far outweigh the consequences and the side effects there, but I think that if we continue to handcuff companies like that and give more freedom to really weird companies that are giving horse tranquilizers to people with COVID, whatever, but I really think. Yeah. Jared Correia (51:12): As an overweight, middle-aged white male, GLP-1s, that's like the Ozempic shit, Joey Organisciak (51:17): The weight Jared Correia (51:17): Loss stuff? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Joey Organisciak (51:19): Yeah. Change, I'll be honest with you, Jared. In the last 18 months, it's changed my life. My blood pressure, 50 pound weight loss, eating habits. That's Jared Correia (51:33): Amazing. Joey Organisciak (51:34): It is that I just never though like, "Oh, here's an injection, whatever. I'm going to get nauseous and have really bad bowel movements for many weeks." No. Jared Correia (51:44): Sounds great. Sounds Joey Organisciak (51:46): Great. No, it's completely changed my life. And I don't take my BP meds anymore. I've actually cut down on my drinking. That's amazing. So it's crazy. Yeah. Jared Correia (52:00): RFK Junior is too busy cutting off raccoon dicks and stuff to be paying attention to that. Joey Organisciak (52:04): He's got a busy schedule. What was that? Jared Correia (52:10): Let's spin it. I don't have a category about raccoon dicks, unfortunately. But we did do a little Jimothy coverage in the session. Oh, I love Jimmy. Joey Organisciak (52:17): Oh, you know what? I watched the Jimothy episode. Oh Jared Correia (52:20): My God. People love Jimothy. Joey Organisciak (52:21): Jimothy. Jared Correia (52:23): Tubular. Oh, okay. A non-legal question, a non-industry question. We're in middle of summer right now or the end of summer. What's your favorite summer activity and why isn't it tubing? Joey Organisciak (52:36): You know what's so funny? So I would say probably it is tubing when I was younger. Tubing's great. Jared Correia (52:43): Growing Joey Organisciak (52:44): Up in the rural area. Can Jared Correia (52:45): I just interject for a second? Yeah. I was talking to my kids the other day and I was like, "Tubing was the fucking best when I was a kid." Just hauling ass on a boat like 50 miles an hour on a tube. I'm like, "It was so dangerous." They didn't know what it was. Joey Organisciak (52:59): No, that's crazy. I grew up in a very rural area. I grew up on fucking poduck farm town and a farm. And so we don't call them creeks, we call them cricks. And so we would go tubing in the cricks, tubing in the canal, rope jumping, rope swinging into the canal. Yes. But yeah, kids. Yeah. Tubing Jared Correia (53:24): Is up there for you. Joey Organisciak (53:25): Yeah. Jared Correia (53:25): Tubing's up there for me. Joey Organisciak (53:26): Yeah. Jared Correia (53:27): We're aligned. Let's spin it again. We got two more questions I think we'll be able to hit with you here. What comes up next? I don't know. That's why it's the wheel of justice. Okay. We have. Drum roll please. Foursome. This could go in a number of different directions. Foursome. Will the Buffalo Bills ever win a Super Bowl? They've lost four. Will they ever win a Super Bowl, the Bills, and when? Do you have a year prediction? Joey Organisciak (53:56): If they were to win a Super Bowl, they have to go to a Super Bowl. And I believe that - Fair point. Jared Correia (54:05): If Joey Organisciak (54:05): It doesn't happen this year, Josh is going to focus his energy on popping out more kids and could possibly work to get out of his contract, to be honest. We got a brand new - Really? I think we got a brand new overpriced stadium, right? Wow. It's a mess. I Jared Correia (54:21): Feel like they just got to pay whatever they need to pay to keep him with the new stadium. Joey Organisciak (54:24): They do, but you can't. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how they turned that California boy into a hometown boy, but they did a really great job and we love him, but they have to go to a Super Bowl, and this year it has to happen. It just has to. Jared Correia (54:43): What do you think of the. So you want to give me a. So your prediction is 2026. No, 2027, because Super Bowl takes place in February when Joey Organisciak (54:53): The Bills win. Jared Correia (54:54): I Joey Organisciak (54:54): Mean, you take a look at the teams that - I like it. Yeah. I mean, so who do you got to worry about? You got to worry about Baltimore. You got to worry about Casey. I don't think you really have to. On the AFC side, I really don't think you have to worry about anybody else even on the end when you get there. Jared Correia (55:07): Patriot Streis. Joey Organisciak (55:09): Yeah. I don't know, dude. It's here. That's luck, right? I applaud them for last season. Oh, Jared Correia (55:18): Last year was bullshit. They didn't play anybody. I understand that. What do you think of the new uniforms? Have you seen those new uniforms? Joey Organisciak (55:26): Oh, the Nickel City ones? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Everyone hates those. Back in the early 2000s, condoms used to come in really cool colors and whatnot. And I think if you think a silver or gray, I don't know. I Jared Correia (55:42): Don't know either. Joey Organisciak (55:43): I've been out of the Jared Correia (55:44): Game. Joey Organisciak (55:45): So silver or gray, it looks like they just put on a giant silver condom and a football helmet on top. I don't like them. I don't think a lot of people do. It's crazy. Controversial. Jared Correia (55:56): I don't know how to improve on that comment. Nickel City, is there nickel mines? Buffalo Joey Organisciak (56:02): Nickel. Yeah. Yeah. So they used to. Jared Correia (56:06): Yeah. Joey Organisciak (56:06): Oh, Jared Correia (56:06): The Buffalo Nickel. Okay. Joey Organisciak (56:08): Yeah. So the nickname's Nickel City. Yeah. Jared Correia (56:11): That was great. Okay. We got one more that we're going to roll through here. Leaving thicks on the table. Let's see what comes up. We should do the other questions as bonus episodes. Nosferatu is the category. Yeah. If you could be a vampire, what would you enjoy the most and least about the experience? Joey Organisciak (56:34): So it's funny, I'm a giant nerd, so I played a lot of D&D growing up. Sure. I may or may not. So the main vampire there was Count Straud Van Richten. Oh, wow. Yeah. Straud, everybody was always. I think it's the. I don't care about the garlic. I don't care about the sunlight. It's just everyone to kill me, right? Oh, true. That would not be good. But at the same time though, the best thing is with Straud, Straud was a ladies man, and Straud was getting it from every direction. Everybody wanted to be with Straud. Now, remember now, I'm a sixth grader junior high walk into the bookstore and all these - Oh yeah.You're Jared Correia (57:17): Like, this guy. Joey Organisciak (57:18): The cover of the book, there's this guy, he's got ladies on him in every single edition. I'm like, "All right, it might be cool." You're like, "Someone Jared Correia (57:27): Bite Joey Organisciak (57:27): Me?" I don't want to kill this guy at the end of this campaign. I want to be this guy at the end of this Jared Correia (57:32): Campaign. Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. I've never played Dungeons and Dragons. So he's just a character that you call Joey Organisciak (57:40): Upon, right? Well, he's one of the main baddies that they have used over the last probably 30 or 40 years that keeps coming back in the campaigns. Yeah. Just Jared Correia (57:49): Got to get him out of the bordello. Joey Organisciak (57:51): And Jared Correia (57:52): We're back to Silver Condom helmus. Wow, what's happened here? What a show. Joey Organisciak (57:59): Love it. Jared Correia (58:01): All right. I'm afraid to do another spin, so I think we're done. Joey, thanks for coming on. This is great. Thank Joey Organisciak (58:05): You, Jared. Thanks Jared Correia (58:07): For our guest today. Joey Organisciak, who is the CEO of Case Compass. To learn more about Joey, thank God I don't have to pronounce his last name again, and Case Compass. Visit casecompass.io. That's case compass, like the navigational tool.io, casecompass.io, check him out. Now, because I'll always be a 90s kid who just destroyed red freeze pops every summer of his years, but whose true passion is burning CDs, for anyone who would listen, I'm now just doing the modern version of that, which is creating Spotify playlists for every single podcast recording that we do, where the songs are tangentially related to an episode topic. For this week's playlist, we're doing songs with alliterative titles. No one loves alliteration more than your boy, former English major here. So we've collected a playlist where each song has at least two words that begin with the same letter. It's an English major's wet dream that was brought to you by Burst Bees Lip Balm. (59:05): Oh, fuck, that is alliterative as well. Gosh dang. I wish they had really sponsored this episode now. I see you burr and all your stupid bees. I'll remember this. Join us next time when I continue to mind my own beeswax. No, that's probably not going to be the case.