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How Better Pricing Restores Joy in Business · The One Small Change Podcast

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Welcome to The One Small Change. I am thrilled to embark on this
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journey of exploration and transformation with you. And if you don't know, I'm
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Yvonne McCoy, and I bring over 30 years of entrepreneurial
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experience. And I have a bizarre passion for
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discovering growth through the power of seemingly small change.
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And every week I try to bring somebody interesting to you to help you on
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this journey. And this week we are talking with John Ray.
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John, thank you so much for being here. Yvonne, I'm delighted to
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be here, and thank you so much for having me on your wonderful show. I
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appreciate you. I am so excited that you're going to be talking to us
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because you're going to be talking about a topic that we don't talk about that
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much. So tell everybody what you do
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and, and how you found your way into it so that you're better than
0:49
anybody else. Well, thank you for that. I
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I help clients, my clients, and
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those that, uh, absorb my work
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restore joy in their business. So
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they've— Good thing. So they've lost joy in their business because
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they feel like they're working too hard for too little money. Um,
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they're— they don't have clients that appreciate their work.
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And a lot of those problems
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are caused by poor pricing. They don't price
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adequately enough. So what I really help expert
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service providers, coaches, consultants, fractional
1:31
executives do is price more effectively to the
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value of the work that they
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provide their clients. And that's the biggest
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problem that I see with them because I had this problem
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myself. So I'm, I I know what they go through.
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And, and, and I think the thing is that
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most people that are entrepreneurs are really good when it comes to the
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competency. They, if they get a client, they can deliver
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service and they're happy. I mean, that's not where the issue
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is, I don't think. And the other
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thing is when you don't price correctly, not only can you not support
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yourself, I mean, how many people have said to you, I would do this for
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nothing.
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Well, yeah. Oh boy. How long
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do we have to talk about this? Well, you know
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what I say to them? If you do it for nothing, then you don't have
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a business. Well, exactly. You don't even have a nonprofit.
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Here's the thing. You have to earn
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more than, than in revenue or, or
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receipts, if you're a nonprofit, then you
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have expenses or you are not sustainable. Right.
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You know, this is one thing I talk— I'm glad you brought this up because
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I talk about it in my book. I call it the mindset of helping.
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What I really call it in conversations like this is the Mother Teresa
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syndrome. I just want to help everyone. Well, you know
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what? That's okay. But if that doesn't
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work in a business, Not everyone is
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your client. Not everyone is waiting for your
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transformation. Not everyone's ready for it.
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Not everyone's willing to pay what the value of that
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transformation is so you can keep doing it for others. See, that's
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the thing. That's what people that say that miss is
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they don't create a sustainable business that allows them to keep
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delivering what their passion project really is.
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So, so, so let's do this because we didn't really touch on this.
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How did you find this to be your, your passion?
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I mean— Well, because I,
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when I got invited out of corporate America, started my own business,
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um, I realized I didn't know how to price. And I, you
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know, that's what happens when you get out into the real world and,
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and you start putting a
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proposal across the table, table, and your knees are knocking and you
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realize you mispriced it. And I
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had poor fit clients, clients that
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were not great fits for me. And eventually what I
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realized, and I saw this in other clients that I had, and
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what I realized, it was a pricing problem. And so
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what I would tell people is I've got all the t-shirts. I've got all the—
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I've got all the, uh, a very practical
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understanding of how mispricing and,
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and, uh, undercharging shows up in your
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business. And so that's why I went
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down this bunny trail to try to fix this problem for myself and
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others. And it's led to me really
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orienting my entire practice around it. The
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book I've written, I've got another one coming, you know, on this very topic.
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Let me, let me ask you this, because I think,
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I think people are saying, I'm just starting out, so
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I can't price a lot, but underpricing
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is so detrimental. And it can have such
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negative impact on you. So one of
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the things that happens is when you underprice, people
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do not appreciate what you're doing and you end up overdelivering.
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Right. Um, what are some of the other things that happen?
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Well, let me tell you a story as a way to answer your question. So
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I was passing by, uh, I'm in the, uh, northern
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region of the Atlanta area. And I was passing
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down a busy street and I saw this guy out with a, uh, a tent
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and he had this big sign.
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That said, uh, 20 ribeyes— it was 40
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ribeyes for $20.
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Now think about that for a second. What's the first thing that comes to your
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mind? Something's wrong. Yeah.
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In fact, you know what, that's too good to be true is the most
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common thought. My thought was, what animal did that come out of, right?
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I mean, you know, the, the point is, is that
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when we When we undercharge, we
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drive people away from us, just like I drove right by that
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guy and didn't even stop. And he never knew that he
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missed out on me as a client. That's— Yeah, go ahead.
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Sorry. No, I was just gonna say that same thing happens to
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us when we don't charge adequately.
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If we charge a price that the client perceives as too good to be
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true, Or how could that be? Or there's some catch
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to that. Um, then they will
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self-select out and we don't even know it.
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I had a friend, I had, who was a client and, um,
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she had somebody buy a higher ticket
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offering that she had. And she said, you've been on my list
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for several years. Why didn't you buy something before? He said, because it was, the
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price was low. I thought it was for beginners.
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Right. Yeah. And, and I think the other thing, my, my,
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my, you know, we all have a horror story. My horror story is
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someone that I knew I could help. Um,
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and I was like, just give me a deposit, just give me whatever you can
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and let's see if we've got a good match. And so she said, I only
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have $75. And I said, I'll take that. Right. And I spent
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2 hours with her. And I gave her like amazing
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value. And, you know, there was something that wasn't quite right. I
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couldn't put my finger on it, but on Monday I got an email that
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said, I don't think this was a good match. I'd like my money back.
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Oh my. And you know what? I gave it to her.
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Yeah. Right. Because it just, it isn't worth her saying she didn't give
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me my, you know, telling all these people. And the thing that was so strange
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to me was she had been at about 3 or 4 events.
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Within like a 2-week period before we talked. So it wasn't like I was a
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surprise that she'd never met me. And I was like,
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okay, that's, that's my lesson learned. If you want it more for them
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than they want it for you, you know, that's not a
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good position to be coming from because they don't see your
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value and what you can do for them.
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Yeah. And see, Uh, kudos to you for, um,
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just not pressing that and just ending the relationship. Because
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here's what happens if you don't. It's
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something that happened to me one time, is when I was working for
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someone who really was not paying me
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anywhere close to the value that I was delivering. I got to a
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point where I resented the client. Mm-hmm. And, you
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know, you get to a point where you, you You, you pick up your
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phone and it's ringing and you see them on the, on
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your screen and you're like, I can't talk to them.
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See, when you get to that point, you, you,
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uh, where you're resenting your clients,
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that's a pricing problem because you're working too
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hard for too little money. And the other thing is, I
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think, Is you have certain
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skills and
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they're— like you said, you can't help everybody.
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And when I first started out, for some reason, I apparently—
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and I've actually come full circle on this now, but I
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apparently attracted people that were in the tech industry.
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They always paid on time. They always paid in full. And I
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hated working with them. I mean, it was like every time you said
10:02
something, they said, I read a book on that. I know this,
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right? And I'd, you know, so they were very hard to coach. And I would
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say, but did you use it? You know, and when
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the, when the engagement was over, I was thrilled. And I was
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like, I'm not doing this anymore. Because it just,
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you know, it I was doing it for the money,
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but I felt like I wasn't getting them the results that I knew
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were possible. But for whatever reason, I couldn't get it. And what I realize now,
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which is really funny, is that a lot of my
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best people, they are not in tech, but they're very
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detail-oriented. So it's really hard for them
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to get out of the bushes, kind of, you know, into
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the other thing. So there is a lesson to be learned from your
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clients that are not good, but you can learn so much more and be so
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much happier with the ones that,
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that are the right clients that like you. I mean, I had somebody that wanted
11:04
me one time said, will you, you know, I want to hire
11:08
you to do this. And I was like, I don't want to do this. And
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I was like, I'll do it for this amount of, you know, money,
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which I thought was astronomical. And they were like, okay.
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I'm like, good for you.
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Yeah. So it was like, oh, that's interesting. I really
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am worth more. Yeah. So let's, let's do this
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because I think you and I could sit here and swap stories
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of what are, what are the hard— what are 3
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things that people can take a look at to, to see whether they have a
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pricing— well, we know they have a pricing problem. So let's assume that they
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do because we could all price better. Right. What are, what are 3
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tips that you can give people that could
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help them? Yeah, well, well, one is
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to, it's really kind of 1, 2, and 3, to be honest
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with you. Um, um, um,
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is to get outta your own head and
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lean on where clients see value. And how do you do that? You,
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you become client-centric when
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it comes to understanding what their hopes, needs, wants, desires are.
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Now, we all of us think we know that, but I can
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tell you that most of, of the folks that I see
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don't ask enough questions. They don't ask enough questions of their
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clients to see where that client sees
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value. So I think, you know, I say it's number 1, 2,
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and 3, but number 1. Is learn how to
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be curious, ask better questions, ask follow-up questions,
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um, be curious
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about why clients are doing what they're doing and,
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and, um, follow up. I mean, here's an
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example. It, it, I mean, let's say I'm a fractional
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CFO and I figured out, you know, a way to save a
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company $100,000. So the question
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is not just the $100,000 in savings, but
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so what is this? What are you going to do with this
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$100,000 suddenly that is now going to
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appear on your income statement over the next year? I mean,
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what, what kind of change will you make in that in your business? Well, maybe
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that client says, hey, I'm going to hire a new salesman or something like that.
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Oh, okay. Well, so What does that mean for your business? Well, it
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really means good things because like I've been wanting this person for quite a
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while. And oh, how much are they going to add in sales, you think? Well,
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probably $500,000. Well, well, that means a lot to your business.
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What's that to the bottom line? You see, we don't
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ask those follow-up questions that get deeply into
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where the value comes from. Um, it's
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not just the thing, it's what the
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thing enables you to do that you couldn't do before.
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So I, I'm bursting to tell you the story because I've been told it a
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long time and, and I like to tell stories. But the gist of it
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is there was a big ship owner and there was something wrong with the
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motor. They couldn't make it work. And they had all these people come in and
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finally the guy comes in and he looks at it and he didn't— he does
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all this stuff and he finally takes a big hammer and he bangs it a
14:28
couple of times and the engine works, right? And he sends him
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his bill for $20,000, and the guy is
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like, $20,000? You weren't even here an hour,
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you know. You didn't even have any parts. He said, I want
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this itemized. And the guy said, okay. So it was
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$19,980,
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um, or it was like $100 for the, the
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hammer. Mm-hmm. And
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$19,900 for the knowledge to know where to hit it.
15:00
Mm-hmm. And I just think that that is such a great
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explanation of, of, you know, where your value is
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and about your pricing and how much it will, it will
15:11
save you, you know. And so sometimes what I say to people is,
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how much is— if you know, how much is a new client worth to you?
15:21
You know, well, Well, let me, let me, do you mind if I extend that
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story a little bit? Sure. Just to illustrate, because
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it's a great story. And if you turn the
15:32
knob just a little bit more, you really get into
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where the value is. So, um, let's,
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let's assume that that ship is loaded down with fresh fruit.
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They can't get out of the harbor. It's going to rot in a few days
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if they can't get it delivered, right? What is the
15:52
value of that cargo that's about to rot?
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It's millions, right? Millions of dollars.
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So for $20,000, I would
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argue that that guy that fixed that engine may be
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underpaid. Mm-hmm. Because, because
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that's the real value. It's, it's not just getting the
16:15
engine going. It's what getting the engine going enables to
16:19
happen that wouldn't happen otherwise. And it's risk
16:22
avoidance. And that risk avoidance is worth millions.
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Absolutely. And so that's how we've got to, we've got to ask
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the questions enough to be able to help the
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client see the value of that hammer on
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the engine. Right. All right. So this is what I want to say, because this
16:41
is really important. And what you're saying, I think
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people do not think about at all. So I said,
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what is the cost of a client? But the other question is,
16:53
What is— what we're saying is, what is the cost to them if they don't
16:56
solve that problem? If it takes them 6 months,
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you know, of not solving that problem, right? It's not just the
17:04
money, it's the quality of life. It's, it's, you know,
17:08
kind of one of the things entrepreneurs do that I have to—
17:12
I work with a lot is get them out of their heads and not start
17:16
with the question of what am I doing wrong? Do you know?
17:20
Because that usually is not the main thing, right? But when
17:24
you're in that kind of situation where you're doubting yourself,
17:28
it, it, it wears on you, right? Yeah.
17:31
So asking the question— and it wears on your clients as
17:35
well. So what if you were to get a client,
17:39
you know, help a client solve a problem? What does it do for them that
17:43
moves them further down the road where they want to go? And that's where the
17:47
value is. And I've heard that same kind of story talk about
17:50
about, you know, a contract
17:54
to an airline. And it was not the screws or the
17:58
whatever. It was the time that the planes were going to be off the line,
18:01
not being able to fly and won't be full, you know, have the
18:05
downtime, the changing of the schedules, the client
18:09
complaints. I mean, it becomes really
18:11
multifaceted, the impact that it has.
18:15
And so I think that this is like such a huge nugget
18:19
that we don't look at. And I think that also brings me to the
18:23
idea that as you're looking at
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who's the right client for you, one of
18:31
the questions is, how fast do you want this?
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Right? Mm-hmm. How fast do you need this? There are some
18:38
people, their learning process means that they need to
18:42
go at a certain pace. But if you come to me and say, I
18:46
need to have this solved in a month, Right,
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because I'm having an event that's coming up and I need to get this resolved.
18:54
That adds to the price.
18:58
Yes, urgency is a value. Urgency is a
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value, and we make mistakes when we don't price
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urgency— we don't factor urgency into our pricing.
19:12
So here's a Uh, good example of that. In fact, I
19:16
talk about it in my book. It's a story I have in my book. So
19:20
I had a problem with my garage door.
19:25
Uh, you know, open it up, go take the dogs out one morning,
19:28
uh, come back and, um, the garage door
19:32
crinkles up. That's a problem. Uh,
19:37
my wife, who was a schoolteacher at the time— she's retired now, but she was
19:40
a schoolteacher at the time— she Um, I had to drive her to work
19:44
and she said, we gotta get that door fixed. And
19:48
you know, when your wife says something to you like that, you know, that's a
19:51
sense of urgency, right? So, so I, I, yeah.
19:55
So I called the garage door guy and say, um,
19:59
I need my garage door fixed. And I,
20:02
you know, texted him pictures and all this kind of stuff. And he
20:06
said, well, he says, you know, I can come out there and get it
20:10
done, uh, this afternoon. I'm like, oh,
20:13
okay, great. What will you charge me? He said, well, I'll charge you, uh,
20:17
um, $1,300, uh,
20:21
if you pay with a card and $800 in cash. I'm like, get out here
20:25
now. I'm going to the ATM.
20:29
And, and here's the problem with this
20:32
conversation. This guy was more worried about saving on taxes.
20:37
Because that's why he wanted the cash, right? He was more interested
20:40
in saving on taxes than he was asking me questions
20:44
about when did I need this done. It's
20:47
like he was never inquisitive about what my
20:51
problem was and why, why that,
20:55
um, what, what was the, uh, need to get it fixed. What he
20:59
should have said was, you know, I got several different options on when
21:03
When we can do it. What's your, what's your, um,
21:08
when do you need it done and, and why? Well, I need it done this
21:11
afternoon because, you know, my wife, you know, I mean, she wants this done. Well,
21:15
see, he could have charged me, uh, you know, $2,000,
21:18
$2,500. Yvonne, I would have, I would have happily paid it
21:23
because, because I'm, I'm in need of, of, of getting my
21:27
wife taken care of. And satisfying her.
21:31
And here's the other thing I think, and that is
21:35
that—
21:39
I don't even know how to say this without— but part of knowing your
21:43
clients is having a general idea
21:47
but still taking the time to ask the questions, right?
21:51
Okay. So the kinds of questions that you ask
21:55
Are the kinds of questions that give you specific
21:59
information, but they also say to your client,
22:03
she knows what she's talking about. She knows
22:07
what I'm going through and can build trust.
22:10
So, you know, your guy, for instance, I don't know anything about repairing,
22:14
repairing garage doors because I live in a row house and don't have a garage.
22:18
But, but I would say, I could say to you, You
22:22
know, are you in a situation where somebody could get into your
22:26
house and you feel unsafe, so you need to have it done right away?
22:30
Or is this something that can wait? And then you can go, he really knows
22:33
what my issues are. Right. You know, I, I don't feel safe. You know,
22:37
my wife doesn't feel safe. So I'm asking questions.
22:42
You know, I know that the door needs to be fixed. I know something
22:45
about maybe the neighborhood, you know, and, you know, general things.
22:49
But the questions that I'm asking show my expertise
22:53
and my understanding of what you're going
22:57
through. So, you know, for instance, one of
23:01
the things that I say, because I teach people a process of
23:05
the stages that their clients go through before they buy, and
23:09
one of the issues is how fast, you know, there's that
23:13
everybody knows the general problem. Mm-hmm. How fast or how long
23:17
do they stay in that bucket when they— before they go, I have
23:21
this problem? If I just have a general ache, I could
23:25
be in there for years. If I
23:29
find out I have cancer or something, you know, I want an answer now.
23:33
I need something now. And knowing what that speed
23:37
is and that urgency helps you to relate to the
23:40
client and, and Build the trust so that they
23:44
see value in what you do. I wish that your
23:48
listeners, what they need to do right now is rewind and
23:52
rehear what you've just said. Because what I'm,
23:56
I'm not saying that just to, uh, uh, blow smoke. Well,
23:59
you can blow smoke. Go ahead. That it felt good,
24:03
right? Uh, no, I seriously, you are
24:07
so spot on. And here's, here's why we are often
24:10
reluctant. to ask the questions you're talking about.
24:15
We think if we ask the questions that we're not showing our expertise,
24:19
and the exact opposite is true. You show your
24:22
expertise by the quality of the questions that you ask.
24:26
And yes, yes, yes, it is a trust builder.
24:30
It communicates expertise. It communicates
24:34
experience much better than you sitting there
24:37
talking about your certifications or— Oh yeah. You
24:41
know, all that hurrah. That all, you know what that all
24:45
that stuff sounds like? Blah, blah, blah, blah. That's what it sounds like to
24:49
the client. The client, the client could care
24:52
less about that. What they care about is their problem. And do you
24:56
understand their problem? And so you
25:00
asking catalytic questions, your goal
25:04
should be to ask questions of your clients,
25:08
something along, and, and they get you. They start responding to you with
25:12
statements like, wow, I never thought about that. That's a great question.
25:16
See, when, when they answer that way, you've got them.
25:21
They believe in you. They, they trust that you know what you're doing.
25:26
So I love what you said. I love what you said. But we, we can,
25:30
when we finish this, we can have a whole nother conversation.
25:34
We're running out of time. And so I
25:38
don't know that we did your 3 things. I think we got stuck on the
25:41
first one. So real fast, give me the other 2 and what your
25:45
gift is, because I want people to get your gift. Yeah. Well, real
25:49
quick, make pricing part of your strategy. I mean,
25:53
so many people, they get into business and they think the way to
25:56
scale their business is volume. You can scale a business through
26:00
pricing. Um, and it's much more, frankly, it's much
26:03
more effective way to scale your business if you make that the priority.
26:08
Uh, often than volume. Um,
26:11
the other thing is to offer options, you know, good, better, best options.
26:15
Not every client wants to engage with you the same way. So
26:19
offer options, uh, you know, in kind of a good, better, best, uh,
26:23
format. And, uh, you will
26:28
have much better fit client fits by doing that.
26:32
And I think the other thing that people don't talk about often is
26:37
Once a client works with you, I kind of feel like
26:41
once a client works with you, the goal is
26:45
depending on what you're, you're solving for, right? But
26:48
it is much more productive to have a client that stays with you and
26:52
grows with you than have a client that, you know, they,
26:56
they're with you for 3, you know, 90 days and then they're gone and then
26:59
you have to find a, you know, another client. And so, you know, it's
27:03
fine for them to take a lower priced option so that they get a
27:07
taste of working with you. And I always go, if you take this, I'll take
27:11
that price and roll it into the next program. So you've already,
27:15
you know, and typically, typically my clients stay with me for several
27:18
years. And it's nice because you really get to dig deep
27:22
and you get to go deeper into what it is that they're doing and see
27:26
really lasting kinds of things. All right. So what's your
27:29
gift? What's my gift for that? For our
27:33
listeners, right? Absolutely. So, so
27:37
please go to thegenerositymindset.com. And that'll
27:41
be in the notes. Yeah. And so, uh,
27:45
scroll on down. It's, it's resources from my book and
27:49
it's free. You don't have to put your email in or anything. Uh, so you
27:52
won't get put in a funnel. Um, I have
27:56
the red flags of inadequate pricing, a way you can
27:59
self-assess whether you're pricing ineffectively or
28:03
not. There's symptoms of inadequate pricing. I also have
28:07
on that same page sample questions for a value
28:10
conversation. So there are questions that you can look
28:14
at and adopt to your own business that help you ask
28:18
better questions of your clients in your particular
28:21
situation. So there's a couple of resources there
28:25
that can get people started down a better road. Sounds
28:29
great. Okay, one more thing. When was the last
28:33
time you did something new for the first time? Oh,
28:37
wow. Well, probably my most, um,
28:41
the one I'm most proud of is, uh, I
28:45
climbed Mount Rainier. So,
28:49
and I did it when I lived in Memphis, Tennessee,
28:52
which, if you've ever been to Memphis, Tennessee, is flat as a
28:56
pancake. So there's no, not,
29:00
not too many, uh, little mountains around there in Memphis to climb
29:03
on. And so, um, um, that's
29:07
what doing, doing it from that place and,
29:11
and then going and climbing Mount Rainier is the, is the, um,
29:16
thing, probably the craziest thing I never thought I would do,
29:19
but that I did. And I'm It's kind of like a lot of
29:23
things that we do in our lives, getting a degree, writing a book or what
29:27
have you. Once you did it, you can always say you, you did it, even
29:30
though I'm, I'm a few pounds, uh, bulkier
29:34
since that time. But, uh, that's the thing I'm
29:37
most proud of. Fantastic. I, and I
29:41
know that when you do something like that,
29:45
it stays with you. It, it I don't even know how to explain it. I
29:48
mean, my— I mean, I do a lot of new things,
29:52
but, but the thing that probably is shining right
29:56
now is last year when I was 76, I started Pilates
30:00
and I absolutely love it. It has changed my life
30:04
and, you know, given me back a quality of life that I didn't have.
30:08
So, anyhow, folks. Good for you! We could keep
30:11
going and we probably would still keep giving you
30:15
value, Bye! It's time for the commercial.
30:19
So if you enjoyed this conversation, one of the first things I want you to
30:23
do is make sure you subscribe and share this and engage with other people on
30:26
social media about this. I designed this to
30:29
supercharge your business through connection, and it's my way to give
30:33
back to the community because I can't be everything to everybody,
30:37
and you don't want me to. So this is a way
30:41
for you to get great information on a regular basis to help you grow
30:45
your business and look at things in a different way. So
30:49
I hope you will continue to join me for The One Small Change and
30:53
that you will take a look at some of the episodes that I have
30:56
done as a single person because I like to talk and every once in a
31:00
while I need to do my own thing. But the real purpose
31:03
of this again is to dive into the world of bold
31:07
vision and innovation and, you know, create possibilities for
31:11
yourself. So, John, I think you already said it earlier. What's
31:15
the quote that you like to give? What are your last words?
31:20
that our clients see more value in us.
31:24
Others in general see more value in us than we see ourselves.
31:29
We're the worst critic of ourselves. So lean into
31:32
what clients see because they see more value in us than we,
31:36
we do. And if we understand that, then we can price better and
31:40
change our business in a dramatic way.
31:43
Absolutely. And so guys, I want you to remember that change is
31:47
simple, but it's not always easy and it requires courage. Courage and resilience
31:51
and a willingness to step out of your comfort zone. If you are comfortable,
31:55
then you are stagnating because you are not taking on challenges and the
31:59
world is changing faster than I can, you know, I can
32:02
keep up with. So join me for the one small change each week as we
32:06
embark on this, this journey of possibilities. And
32:09
remember, um, that once a month I do my Be Found
32:13
workshop. Get clarity, get confidence, get consistent clients because you
32:17
don't need to be fixed, you just need to be found. And also every
32:21
couple of months I do a panel with 5 experts, 4 or
32:25
5 experts that will help you to think about things differently, not
32:28
necessarily give you more to do, but help you shift the way that you look
32:32
at visibility so that it includes being recognized and
32:35
chosen. And until the next time, stay very,
32:39
very curious. Thank you, John. Thank you, Yvonne.