Latest / To Your Good Health / Mental Fitness and Nutritional Psychiatry: How Food, Sleep, and Connection Shape Your Brain

Transcript

Mental Fitness and Nutritional Psychiatry: How Food, Sleep, and Connection Shape Your Brain · To Your Good Health

0:00
David Friedman, BS: Hello, this is Dr.
0:01
David Friedman, host of To Your Good Health Radio.
0:03
Many of you go to the gym and y- you build your muscle and y- you go
0:07
for walks to strengthen your heart.
0:09
But when was the last time you trained your brain?
0:12
See, most of us treat mental health like a fire we put out when
0:17
things get bad, not something we proactively build like a muscle.
0:21
Unfortunately, this reactive approach is not working.
0:24
Prescriptions for psychiatric medications are at an all-time high.
0:29
Therapists can barely keep up with the demand, and millions of people
0:32
are still struggling, not because they're broken, but because nobody ever
0:37
showed them how to get mentally fit.
0:39
That's a new concept we're talking about here and is a big game-changer.
0:43
Your brain isn't just shaped by your thoughts or past trauma.
0:47
It's shaped by your lifestyle and what you put on your plate.
0:51
Today, we're joined by Dr.
0:52
Drew Ramsey, a leading pioneer in nutritional psychiatry, and he'll
0:57
share why food isn't just fuel for your body, it's medicine for your
1:01
mind, and we're gonna cover the keys to mental fitness and which foods fight
1:04
depression, anxiety, and much more.
1:07
The only thing standing between you and a sharper, more resilient brain
1:11
could be at the end of your fork.
1:13
Don't go anywhere.
1:14
It all starts now.
1:26
My next guest is a board-certified psychiatrist, author, and one of
1:31
the leading pioneers in nutrition, psychiatry, and integrative mental health.
1:37
He spent 20 years as an assistant clinical professor of psychiatry
1:41
at Columbia University.
1:43
In addition, he's a fellow of the American Psychiatric Association, founder of
1:47
the Brain Food Clinic and Spruce Mental Health, and he's delivered three TEDx
1:52
talks and authored five books, and his work has been featured by The Today
1:56
Show, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and NPR, just to name a few.
2:01
Welcome to the show, author of Healing the Modern Brain, Dr.
2:05
Drew Ramsey.
2:07
Drew Ramsey, MD: Hey everybody, Dr.
2:08
Friedman.
2:09
Thanks so much for having me on.
2:10
I'm so excited to talk with everybody listening about how
2:13
to max your mental fitness.
2:15
Probably, I'd say the most important thing you can be doing for your
2:19
health and mental health right now, so I can't wait to get into it
2:22
with you all
2:22
David Friedman, BS: Yeah, I love that term mental fitness.
2:24
It's something we don't hear.
2:25
Share with us how that differs from mental health and why this distinction
2:30
Drew Ramsey, MD: Yeah.
2:30
So this is what my new book, Healing the Modern Brain, gets into.
2:33
Everybody, I'm a practicing psychiatrist, and when you do what I do for a living,
2:37
you need a lot of tools in your toolbox.
2:39
It's not just meds, it's not just therapy.
2:41
Those are great, but my work with nutritional psychiatry showed me that
2:45
there are certain foods that are just better for our mental health than others.
2:48
Just like there are certain types of exercise that are better for
2:50
your mental health than others.
2:51
Just like there are certain things that we can talk about with our partners that make
2:55
our relationship stronger, which you get it, that's better for our mental health.
3:00
So that's mental fitness.
3:01
It's the things that you and I need to do, just like for our physical health, right?
3:06
It's the things we need to do to care for our mental health and our
3:08
brain health and be our best selves.
3:10
And I tried to put things in the book, Dr.
3:13
Friedman, that we all agreed on because, boy, we're arguing
3:15
about so many s- so many things in the health and wellness space.
3:19
I wanted to just in some way speak the truth.
3:21
These are nine things that if you do them right, it gets your brain
3:25
growing and repairing itself.
3:26
It's not a bunch of weird stuff.
3:29
new, great science, the book's solid, you know, I hope it helps you all
3:32
David Friedman, BS: Yeah, I love those nine, pillars of mental fitness.
3:35
Can you briefly share these?
3:36
And which ones do you find that people are most neglecting?
3:39
Drew Ramsey, MD: Yeah, let's get into a few of them, Dr.
3:40
Freedman.
3:41
So, you know, the first one we start out with is self-awareness.
3:44
And this is when we spend time in our journal, when we go for a walk on
3:47
a-- with a friend, when we reflect on why we're so upset and insecure and
3:52
hot-headed not using our kind words, not having grace, like what's going on?
3:58
That's self-awareness, and it's one of the most fundamental steps.
4:01
in management, they talk about, you know, you can't manage what you don't measure.
4:05
And it's a similar thing with our mental health.
4:07
If we are not honest and true with ourselves, if we need, you know, that
4:10
kinda joke, guys of, like, we don't go to therapy until someone sends us.
4:14
that's not how we can be anymore.
4:16
If you're not aware that you're struggling and able to just sit with
4:19
that, really missing out on the most important, best motivations for you.
4:25
And those motivations come from our own desires to have more purpose, to
4:28
have more efficiency and, happiness and, more connection in our lives.
4:33
So we start with self-awareness, and talk about some tips, things
4:36
like journaling, going to groups.
4:39
then next tenet is all about nutrition.
4:44
Now, nutritional psychiatry, really simply, everybody, is that, certain foods,
4:48
right, it's the idea we wanna optimize what we eat based on our brain health.
4:52
Why?
4:52
Your brain's your most important asset by far, and your brain uses more
4:57
of your food than any other organ.
4:59
It has more folate, more vitamin E, more calories, about a fifth of your calories.
5:04
So we wanna dial in the nutrition.
5:06
We know more and more that people are eating these ultra-processed
5:10
foods for about sixty to seventy percent of your calories.
5:12
If you're the average American listening, those calories come
5:15
from op-- ultraprocessed foods.
5:17
Every increase in ultraprocessed food, every ten percent of calories that come
5:22
from ultraprocessed foods, that increases your risk of depression by eleven percent.
5:27
So just four hundred more calories of processed food in your diet, that
5:31
increases your risk of depression by twenty-two percent what we're seeing is
5:35
that as people are eating this modern American diet, we're increasing our risk
5:39
of all kinds of issues with mental health.
5:41
It's not the only thing you need to do, but we've got to get food-- got
5:44
to get food back to the real food.
5:46
So ten at threes movement, and I call it that instead of exercise really, because
5:53
I want people moving their bodies.
5:54
And love all the lifting and, all the, intense exercise we see, the Ironmans
6:00
on Instagram and, I treat a lot of regular people, and sometimes they
6:04
only have fifteen minutes, they're not going to run a marathon this year.
6:07
they're really busy, maybe with work, maybe with being a parent,
6:10
maybe they're in graduate school.
6:11
And I, don't mean those things are excuses.
6:14
I just-- The reality is, most of us need to move our bodies more every day.
6:18
And I talk in the book about some research around things like dancing.
6:23
And a lot of times I'll tell people, "Go dancing," and they'll
6:25
look at me a little bit strange.
6:26
But if you look in the data, one of the movements that's best for our mood
6:29
and our mental health is going dancing.
6:32
And it's something, you most of us do after a few drinks at a
6:34
wedding, and that's about it.
6:36
And so it's just kind of an example, Dan, in the book where want to take this really
6:41
fascinating new science of how our brains work and how our mental health works,
6:46
and then help people create a program and feel inspirational that-- inspired.
6:50
in all of the health information we get, I'm going to tell you
6:53
about things that increase brain-derived neurotrophic factor.
6:56
This is really the main growth hormone in our brain.
6:59
good nutrition, good movement, and then, you know what's coming next is good sleep.
7:03
But I get into sleep in a different way.
7:04
Like, if you've never heard about the glymphatic system, I
7:07
hope you'll check out the book.
7:09
It's got an audiobook.
7:10
I read the audiobook, because the glymphatic system really changes
7:14
how you think about sleep hygiene.
7:16
I bet your doctor's probably told you like, "Hey, sleep hygiene."
7:18
You guys can maybe laugh about the phone, and, "Oh, it's so hard."
7:22
That's not sleep hygiene.
7:23
Sleep hygiene starts with the cleanliness of your bedroom.
7:26
If your room is not sort of spotless right now, a shrine to your
7:30
sleep, a sanctuary to your brain cleaning itself out, that's okay.
7:35
It means there's a great opportunity for you.
7:36
It means if you're not feeling well, if you're feeling a little run down,
7:40
a little brain fog, a little low energy, low focus, you've got something
7:43
actually right now to do, right?
7:45
Which is around cleaning up your bedroom, getting an air filter in
7:49
there, and starting to have your brain go through the cycles of sleep because
7:52
this is when we clean waste out of our brain Remember that thing I said
7:56
earlier, you burn all the calories?
7:58
Well, anytime you burn calories, waste happens.
8:00
But then th-those are the, first kind of four tenets, and we move in just
8:03
walk through some of the other ones.
8:05
I talk about connection and the different types of connections in
8:08
our lives, not just your bestie and your partner, but thinking about
8:11
institutions and friends and even acquaintances and colleagues and mentors.
8:16
I talk about grounding in nature.
8:18
I've spent a lot of my career out in New York City.
8:20
Right now, I'm, looking at the Grand Tetons out in
8:23
Jackson, Wyoming, where I live.
8:24
And so nature and-- has been just central to my mental health and really something
8:29
I love seeing patients do more of.
8:31
And then the book ends thinking about these two tenets,
8:33
unburdening, that's tenet eight.
8:36
And unburdening is really my observation as a therapist that,
8:39
that we-- so many of us are carrying around, unprocessed trauma.
8:44
it can be serious traumas like assaults.
8:46
It can be serious traumas that are often not thought of as serious,
8:50
like in developmental neglect.
8:52
just having parents who didn't really pay attention to you and the
8:55
way that sits with certain people, or having a sibling who's really,
8:59
like, mean and rejected you or…
9:01
So, that unburdening to really try and step out of our past and into ourselves.
9:07
And then this final notion, this tenet of purpose, that y- I mean, Dr.
9:10
Friedman, I'm sure you feel it as a physician.
9:12
I'm sure a lot of you listening feel it, right?
9:14
When we have that sense of purpose, whether it's you're doing your job
9:18
well, I find that all the time.
9:19
It can be the simplest thing in my job.
9:21
But when I'm doing it and I'm doing it well, it just feels great.
9:23
when you're-- maybe it's being a parent, maybe it's you're just being
9:27
a great partner, a good listener.
9:28
But when you're living your purpose with a sense of purpose, your focus, your
9:32
energy, it's just a different ball game.
9:35
And so it's really inviting people into what we hope for in a good
9:38
psychotherapy process, which is over time, people are more grounded and
9:42
in touch with a sense of meaning and a sense of purpose in their lives.
9:45
And that's, mental fitness in a nutshell.
9:48
David Friedman, BS: I love it.
9:48
Fantastic.
9:49
I know back when I taught, neuroanatomy, I'd demonstrate the lobes of the
9:52
brain using an overhead projector.
9:54
Then I'd shock the students, the big reveal, the image I was using
9:58
was a brai- brain, it was a walnut.
9:59
So I was using a walnut instead of a brain, and everybody's jaws dropped.
10:02
But I taught, I said, "Walnuts aren't just shape and look like a brain.
10:05
They're one of the richest plant sources of DHA omega-3 fatty acids, the
10:09
building blocks that run our brain."
10:11
when it comes to memory, are there other foods that we can
10:13
reach for that enhance the brain?
10:16
Drew Ramsey, MD: Yeah.
10:16
When we think about what's called your dietary pattern, and then just
10:20
looking for those foods that you're gonna really try and incorporate every
10:23
week and, some of them every day.
10:25
And in nutritional psychiatry, I encourage people to think about food categories.
10:29
So, I could recommend a singular food like, maybe you think I'm gonna
10:32
say kale 'cause I wrote Fifty Shades of Kale, and I, like kale a lot.
10:36
But what I'm really curious about is leafy greens.
10:38
And maybe you love bok choy and you don't like kale.
10:41
That's great because leafy greens have this thing called nutrient density.
10:45
And so we're looking for food categories that give us more nutrition
10:48
for our brain for fewer calories.
10:50
And this is where I come up with my little rhyme, seafood greens,
10:53
nuts and beans, and a little dark chocolate, rainbow celebrations,
10:59
don't forget the fermentations.
11:01
And this is to direct people towards these food categories.
11:04
So, you mentioned what's good for memory.
11:06
Well, we can all agree those long-chain omega-3 fats you mentioned like DHA.
11:11
the real concentrated source is these small fish like sardines and anchovies,
11:15
but you can also get some really nice of the ALA in, things like, walnuts,
11:20
as you mentioned, is a great source.
11:22
Flax is another great source.
11:24
seafood also brings us lots of B12 and iodine, just lots of nutrient
11:28
density along with those omega-3 fats.
11:31
Greens, again, folate, fiber, magnesium, so many nutrients in just twenty to
11:37
thirty calories a cups of greens.
11:39
Seafood, greens, nuts.
11:41
Dr.
11:41
Freeman, I don't know what you think about nuts.
11:43
I love nuts because it's a little packet of olive oil, and olive oil's great
11:46
for our health, great for our vascular health, great for our brain health.
11:49
You got all these minerals.
11:51
I like 'em because I can just like stick 'em in my bag, and I like unsalted,
11:55
unroasted nuts, raw nuts because you don't kind of keep eating them 'cause
12:00
there's no salts and, y-you get these really nice set of what are called
12:04
phytonutrients, plant-based nutrients.
12:07
Just like we do in vegetables, plants have similar ones.
12:10
And so I really love the nuts
12:12
David Friedman, BS: Yeah.
12:12
Plus they're very filling.
12:13
people can just do a little small handful and it tides them over for dinner.
12:16
Otherwise, they're doing those empty calories, the snacks, the processed foods,
12:20
they keep going and going and going.
12:21
Handful of nuts, you're,
12:23
Drew Ramsey, MD: It's such a great point because everybody when-- You know
12:25
this, when you prescribe nuts, people's like, "Oh, there's so many calories."
12:28
So two points on that.
12:29
First, the USDA issued a statement, I'm gonna say five years ago, saying,
12:32
"You know, you should take twenty-five percent of the calories off of the
12:36
nut package because you don't absorb all of the calories from a nut."
12:40
And that was very interesting.
12:41
And then you've also, as you're eating something and it's calorically
12:44
dense, has a lot of calories, you know, a couple hundred calories in a
12:47
handful of nuts, but it's satiating.
12:49
It leaves you full.
12:51
And so protein, fat, fiber, and slow-burning carbs,
12:54
that's what keeps us full.
12:55
Well, you just-- That's the macronutrient content of a nut.
12:59
And so that's why a little handful of nuts all the time in the middle of the
13:02
day is a pick-me-up, especially if you get a little schlumpy in the afternoon.
13:06
I really love almonds, walnuts, cashews.
13:09
Those are kind of my daily drivers.
13:12
David Friedman, BS: Yeah, don't have too many cashews 'cause they make you sneeze.
13:15
Cashew.
13:16
Ca- cashew.
13:17
A kid told me that one last week.
13:18
I loved it.
13:19
Drew Ramsey, MD: very funny doctor.
13:21
Cashews are a great source of iron.
13:23
Iron is a really underappreciated nutrient deficiency when it comes to mental health.
13:28
we've started really shifting how we think about and measure iron and
13:32
storage iron, but particularly the women under forty-five listening, you really
13:37
wanna make sure that your ferritin, your storage iron levels are good.
13:41
it's one of those things that really sneaks up on people and
13:44
sneaks up on women in particular.
13:45
You just have a higher iron need, and especially lots of plant-based
13:49
mommies out there now, w-which, is great in lots of ways for your
13:51
health, but you also get a little less iron, a little less absorbable iron.
13:55
Not to throw any shade on veggie diets, but more to think about our mental health.
13:59
whether you go vegan, whether you go carnivore, I just want
14:01
everybody thinking about your most important asset, your brain first.
14:06
those diets, they come with some, I'd say, specialty needs.
14:10
again, the hope of nutritional psychiatry, seafood greens, nuts and
14:13
beans, a little dark chocolate, and then rainbow celebrations are colorful foods.
14:18
Look at your plate.
14:19
You see three or four colors?
14:21
Good job.
14:21
And if you don't, hey, a little challenge.
14:23
Can you get another color in there?
14:24
Chop up a red pepper, throw on some microgreens.
14:27
and then fermentations is just this really cool new science of gut
14:31
health in the microbiome, that as we eat more fermented foods, we seem
14:36
to have the microbiomes, all these organisms that live in our colon.
14:39
It's kinda gross, but it's kinda cool.
14:42
And there's all this, science everybody's been hearing about this gut-brain axis,
14:46
that how our gut is kind of doing, right?
14:50
If there's a lot of different types of organisms down there,
14:52
that's called microbiome diversity.
14:54
That's usually correlated with health.
14:56
why does this all matter?
14:57
How does it matter?
14:57
Why do gut organisms matter to my health?
15:00
Great question.
15:01
It's because of the gut being the major regulator of inflammation.
15:06
So everybody's talking all about inflammation.
15:08
We talk about inflammation.
15:09
Inflammation's bad.
15:10
And we kinda forget, inflammation's good.
15:12
Inflammation's amazing.
15:13
Inflammation's a miracle of biology.
15:16
It's the fact that you somehow are able to surveil and destroy threats all day long.
15:23
Viruses, bacteria, scratches, boo-boos, bad food, hangovers.
15:28
You wanna talk about inflammatory factors, you look at what happened
15:30
when people drink alcohol, your inflammatory factors all go up for hours.
15:35
our gut health and having a more diverse microbiome, we think helps people
15:39
regulate inflammation more effectively.
15:42
And so again, that's where this cool intervention of thinking about a more
15:46
whole foods type diet, a more traditional diet, eating less processed food, it
15:50
has this really powerful systemic effect
15:53
David Friedman, BS: Yeah, you mentioned alcohol.
15:54
I know it's a depressant, which is not good for the brain, and many
15:57
are turning to cannabis instead, the gummies, tinctures, vapes, especially
16:00
now that it's legal in most states.
16:02
I'm curious from a, a nutritional psychiatry standpoint, what does
16:06
the science say about cannabis as a long-term strategy for managing
16:09
depression, anxiety, or stress?
16:11
Drew Ramsey, MD: Dr.
16:11
Freedman, it's really about making sure when you have the munchies, going to
16:14
a nutrient de-- I'm just kidding, Dr.
16:16
Freedman.
16:17
You know, cannabis is
16:18
David Friedman, BS: Don't stop at Taco Bell.
16:20
Drew Ramsey, MD: the cashew.
16:21
Um, cannabis is really interesting in the sense that it's been very
16:25
stigmatized, and you tend to see these, like, polar opposite headlines, right?
16:29
You see like, oh, you know, recent headline, actually, older
16:32
cannabis abusers seem to have some mental health benefits maybe.
16:36
And then you see, oh, these headlines, there's no safe dose of cannabis.
16:39
It's horrible for your brain health.
16:41
So let's just quickly think, through the complexity of this, because I think
16:45
it shows something about mental health, and I hope everybody listening can
16:48
just take a moment, take a breath, and think about how complex mental health
16:51
is and where we want to be curious.
16:53
So a lot of people have a strong opinion about cannabis or alcohol
16:57
or depression or antidepressants.
16:59
And as somebody who's been in this field for twenty-five years, I have a lot of
17:03
information, a lot of evidence, but I try and be really curious these days.
17:06
there's so much hype about things like psychedelic or even cannabis
17:09
and its help, and really so little research when it comes down to it.
17:13
A few studies.
17:14
With cannabis, we want to think about what is the mode of intake.
17:18
You for a lot of my career, vapes came out, and that
17:21
sounded healthier than smoking.
17:23
So when you'd meet somebody who's a cannabis user in a state where
17:25
it's legal, you kind of go into what's called harm reduction.
17:29
Smoking's bad for you, so maybe vaping's better.
17:31
Oh, then that looked like no.
17:33
So what's even better than vaping or smoking?
17:35
We'd guess taking gummies, right?
17:38
Ah.
17:38
If you actually look at a study that came out last year, there was a higher
17:42
incidence or cor-correlation with heart disease among people who used
17:46
edible cannabis products than smokable cannabis, which totally I still
17:50
don't know how to understand that.
17:51
Is it a longer effect?
17:53
Is it that over time, the cannabis maybe like raises your blood pressure, for
17:56
some people raises arrhythmia effect?
17:57
I mean, it's really hard to know.
17:59
I think the bottom line is people think about cannabis as very safe.
18:02
and for the most part, that I would say is a reasonable if statement,
18:07
but there's two real caveats.
18:09
The first is among teens.
18:11
Everybody just thinks that, like, we're downers, but the major risk
18:15
of cannabis is teenage psychosis.
18:17
And, there's population of people who would not get the psychotic
18:21
illness, that because they use heavy amounts or even low amounts of high
18:25
concentrated THC products, especially THC products without other terpenes or
18:30
cannabinoids, they're vastly increasing the risk of getting a psychotic and
18:35
potentially lifelong psychotic disorder.
18:37
So this is where we really want to be cautious with our
18:40
youth and our adolescents.
18:41
And this isn't me being like the man or conservative or whatever.
18:44
This is just the science, everybody.
18:46
And so that's really the dan-- most dangerous window the evidence is then
18:51
emerging and kind of maturing that people use a lot of cannabis these days.
18:55
there's certainly health effects that we haven't really thought about.
18:58
heart disease is the one that really just came out most recently in the data.
19:02
people make reasonable arguments.
19:03
There's all kinds of interesting anti-inflammatory
19:05
compounds in the cannabinoids.
19:07
I'm a clinician, and so my job is to help people have healthy relationships
19:12
David Friedman, BS: it is healthier than alcohol.
19:14
do you go to at least to that point?
19:16
Drew Ramsey, MD: No.
19:16
You know, I, I just think it's it's too broad.
19:18
I mean, yes, if you look at the big data, alcohol is one of the most
19:22
h-harmful substances on the planet.
19:25
in terms of the strict data, yes, th-there is no comparison.
19:28
Cannabis is a much healthier substance than alcohol.
19:31
If you're a teenager, you have a beer, nothing's gonna happen.
19:36
If you're the wrong teen and you smoke a big fatty, you can end
19:40
up with a psychotic disorder.
19:42
And, it really-- It's one of those things that like, yes, in the big
19:45
data, it does certainly look safer.
19:47
However, I think y- we just wanna make-- be cautious about global statements,
19:52
and thinking about, again, lots of people are really into this stuff.
19:56
Can we help people be really into some of these other things?
20:01
Movement, going dancing, listening to music, learning to play an
20:04
instrument, journaling, becoming, I don't know, like a better lover, right?
20:08
There's like all kinds of things to do with yourself, your
20:11
David Friedman, BS: Yeah, but everybody wants that one-stop shop.
20:13
Like, what about these nootropics on the market?
20:16
They
20:16
boost memory, decrease
20:17
depression.
20:18
Drew Ramsey, MD: I, will tell you what you're all looking for, right?
20:21
If you're feeling your life is hollow, it's because you're
20:23
pursuing the wrong goals.
20:24
You're pursuing manly goals, not godly goals, right?
20:28
You're pursuing goals of, wealth, of materialism, of titles, right?
20:33
You're insecure and trying to make up for it with all kinds of stuff.
20:36
We all do this.
20:37
And as the-- soon as you begin to pivot, look into the eyes of the people around
20:42
you, center down and focus on your kids.
20:45
Stop being a jerk to your partner and open up your arms and your heart.
20:49
If you want a universal answer to feeling better, it is connecting
20:53
to those around you, being of service to them, loving them harder.
20:58
I say this all the time to the young men in my practice: How are
21:01
you being a better boyfriend today?
21:03
how are you growing your heart bigger?
21:05
if you want solution like that, plus some more lentils in your
21:09
diet, more wild salmon, and going dancing more, I think that would
21:13
help pretty much everybody listening.
21:15
No guarantees, but you can always let me know.
21:18
I'm, I'm Instagram @DrewRamseyMD.
21:20
I always love hearing when these conversations, like Dr.
21:24
Friedman and I, hit somebody and it makes a change in you.
21:26
You go dancing, you take your partner out, you have a great time with your kid.
21:31
And the reason I say that is that I see so much searching in my practice, Dr.
21:36
Friedman, so much painful seeking, searching, hoping.
21:41
part of that is being human and having ambition, and I love all that like you do.
21:45
But sometimes part of that is really where people struggle
21:48
to be right now in the present
21:50
David Friedman, BS: I noticed that your nine tenants didn't tell, uh, teenagers
21:53
to spend more time on social media.
21:55
It's become like the addiction now, you
21:57
know?
21:57
When I was a kid, I was addicted playing baseball and soccer and stuff outside.
22:02
Now they're inside and their tablets.
22:04
Wouldn't that be the opposite of mental fitness?
22:06
Drew Ramsey, MD: Yeah, I mean, that's really what the data is
22:08
showing us as teen mental health continues to go into decline.
22:12
I think, we all owe Jonathan Haidt, um, at NYU a really, a thanks
22:16
for his book, Anxious Generation, really talking about the harms of
22:21
social media, particularly the young teenage women really trying to get…
22:25
he really started this movement to get phones out of schools.
22:28
My daughter says it.
22:29
She comes out of high school, she's a freshman.
22:31
She says, "You know, Dad, we come out and everybody just pulls their
22:34
phone out, and we just walk through the hall looking at our phone."
22:37
it's sad.
22:38
We all do it.
22:39
I mean, everybody, every parent in particularly, feels guilty.
22:42
But we all look up, we're on the couch or next to our partner, and instead of
22:46
connecting, instead of talking, instead of date night, we're both doom scrolling.
22:50
And there's something about it that feels wonderful.
22:52
And, there's a tenet we didn't talk about called the tenet of engagement,
22:55
and people ask a lot about that one.
22:57
And the tenet of engagement is my request that you fight the algorithm That all
23:02
day long, based on your demographics and what your eyeballs look at and how long
23:07
you wait and what you scroll, you're gonna get served up stuff you like.
23:10
out here in Jackson, I get served up a lot of like, big mountain snowboarders,
23:14
you know, hucking their meat off of some giant cliff in the avalanche, right?
23:18
The kind of stuff that I, I can't stop looking at, big surf waves or…
23:22
Right?
23:22
It sort of serves things up for me.
23:24
But to be honest with you, Dr.
23:26
Friedman, I'm really not much of a surfer at all.
23:28
I like to paddle out and, I'm kind of scared of the big backcountry.
23:32
Um, I like to skin up a mountain for sure, but boy, I'm never
23:35
gonna do big lines like that.
23:36
And engagement is about trying to take a step away from what the algorithm's
23:40
telling me, that I'm actually really not that big or tough or, and instead get
23:45
into my life and make choices based on what I'm feeling, what you're feeling,
23:50
that you already have an algorithm.
23:53
It's called, your emotional system, and it gives you so much data.
23:58
And whether it's alcohol or drugs or the screen, what I see happening over
24:02
and over again in this modern world, the book's called Healing the Modern
24:05
Brain because it's about the modern world really hijacking some of what
24:09
makes people feel good about themselves.
24:12
you spend all day, all weekend scrolling.
24:14
We all know you feel badly about yourself, and then you medicate
24:17
that kind of by scrolling more.
24:19
And so it's great to bring up Dr.
24:21
Friedman.
24:21
You know, I know everybody's hearing this over and over again, right?
24:24
It's kind of like healthy diet, like eat better stuff.
24:26
Stop the screen.
24:28
I really encourage you to have a structure and a method.
24:31
what I find is happening over and over again is people are taking these
24:34
soundbites, and it reminds me a little bit of the, um, fire alarm in a hospital.
24:38
If you've ever been in a hospital, I've spent a lot of
24:40
time in a hospital as a doctor.
24:42
and the fire alarm goes off, and they go off all the time, sometimes when like
24:45
testing, and you just start ignoring them.
24:47
You know, you look around, see if anybody else is moving or running.
24:50
You see if there any smoke, but you don't-- You just-- It's
24:52
kind of going off all the time.
24:53
You don't really pay attention to it.
24:55
And it feels like sometimes that's what's happened with
24:57
some of our healthcare advice.
24:59
David Friedman, BS: Yeah.
24:59
I'm worried about the modern brain you talk about in the course of
25:02
what probably wasn't real big when you wrote the book is the AI.
25:04
It's thinking for us now.
25:05
It's built into our eyeglasses to process what we see, and soon it's gonna
25:09
be implanted directly into our brain.
25:11
How do we combat that?
25:13
You know, someone on the cutting edge in your field, what are the pros and cons
25:16
of this quickly evolving intelligence?
25:18
Drew Ramsey, MD: I would say that the pro, hopefully, is that our need for more
25:23
thoughtfulness, better use of evidence, more respect for science, more respect
25:28
for testing, more respect for nuance.
25:31
I would hope that those of-- what I would say can be great
25:34
human traits, our ability, let's say, to be kind and have grace.
25:38
Hopefully, the AI, and, I think we all say hopefully because none
25:42
of us really quite understand how it's working or what's going on.
25:45
Hopefully, those values will remain part because AI will need them to survive.
25:50
I think what you're alluding to is very soon we're going to be integrated,
25:54
that the synchronicity notion of implantation and then, probably initially
26:00
through a set of magnetic impulses, that the AI is going to have some
26:04
reasonable control over our brains.
26:07
that's pretty much…
26:08
I'm, sitting, I've got this actually near-photovoltaic helmet I put on the
26:12
other day, which, is attached to my phone, which is attached to the internet.
26:16
And, you're sitting there realizing, if the problem with A-AI is solving like,
26:20
help me feel better and less anxious, and it has access to live EEG data, right,
26:26
of my brain sensing the electromagnetic kind of functioning of my brain in
26:30
real time, and then either through implant or through helmet, it has one
26:34
of these, um, TMS, transcranial magnetic stimulation, which is a way that the
26:39
brain can be manipulated with a magnetic field, a lot like electroconvulsive
26:42
shock therapy, but without the seizure.
26:45
So you begin to combine that up with super intelligence, and you have the
26:49
basic workings for AI to very easily control human cognition and human mood.
26:56
it's a frightening thing, as we all race towards it.
27:00
Everyone here has spent, thousands of gallons of wa-water essentially
27:06
and electricity and compute a-asking AI a set of things that really it
27:12
tells us a lot about ourself, right?
27:14
How we want it to be like the big daddy in the sky that
27:17
answers or big mommy in the sky.
27:19
" what should I do to get bigger, better, richer, freer?
27:22
Please, please tell me."
27:26
and so, there's that, and then I think there's also the ways
27:28
that we find ourselves trying to use it more effectively.
27:30
Can I summarize the science better?
27:32
Can I create an e-book for my audience that helps them eat better?
27:36
can I create more engaging content that reaches more people and saves lives?
27:42
and whatever the equivalent of AI doing that is in your field.
27:45
that's clearly very in-intriguing.
27:47
the early science, of course, is showing we also then think less.
27:52
David Friedman, BS: True.
27:52
That's my
27:52
concern, yeah
27:53
Drew Ramsey, MD: Yeah, and, and I found that to be true that, there's
27:56
less finished product, there's less pushing through, there's less
28:00
dealing with the disappointment.
28:01
You know, when you sit down and write something, it's disappointing.
28:04
I mean, I've written five books, and I sit down and I write all the time,
28:06
and I look at it, I'm like, "Oh my God, you're such like a snively,
28:09
whiny, selfish," you know, like, yikes.
28:13
And then you edit it, right?
28:15
And then you look at it again, and you think it's getting closer.
28:17
And then you share it with someone, an editor, a colleague, a writer,
28:20
you know, you get some feedback.
28:22
and that iterative process, it makes you better at the first draft, but
28:26
it also is the way that you polish and refine your thinking and the idea
28:32
that you want to present to people
28:34
David Friedman, BS: Yeah, it's so true.
28:35
I remember, uh, writing, one of my chapters and it was like, "This
28:38
is the best thing I ever written.
28:39
I can't believe I can't sleep."
28:40
It was like 2:00, 3:00 in the morning.
28:41
I'm so excited.
28:42
I'm onto something so exciting.
28:43
I'm like, "This is gonna revolutionize the world."
28:46
And then guess what?
28:46
Two weeks later, I read the chapter and I go, "This sucks.
28:49
What was I
28:51
thinking?"
28:52
Drew Ramsey, MD: Well, and it-- That's exactly right 'cause the--
28:54
Like, yes, 'cause in that mental state, you had changed the world.
28:58
You had written the best thing.
29:00
And so to see that and then face the reality of like, well, what was that?
29:04
You know?
29:04
And what is, that little pearl in there, Dr.
29:07
Friedman, where maybe you were?
29:09
And how do you find that and go, and so that's the process that
29:12
we start to lose very quickly
29:14
David Friedman, BS: Bingo.
29:14
Because a lot of people would say, "All right, throw it
29:16
into AI and they'll fix it."
29:18
But when we do it ourselves, it has to just enhance our
29:21
brain, has to make us grow.
29:22
I think that when we're giving away to a robot, we're losing part of our brain.
29:26
It, it's a no-brainer, pun intended there
29:28
Drew Ramsey, MD: I think it's that fantasy all of us had that we were the smartest
29:32
kid in the class and we could do anything.
29:34
And no matter how well you did in school, I did pretty well in school, but there
29:37
were always people that were a lot smarter than I am, and suddenly that
29:40
notion that, no, you can do it, you can write the thesis, you can revolutionize
29:46
a field, you can create a business.
29:49
dealing with that level of what I would call is like narcissistic fantasy,
29:53
that you can become all-knowing, and you can become whatever it is that you
29:58
kind of hope for without the effort.
30:00
there's something in that that I think ultimately will be hollow.
30:03
You know, I also-- I've just did a, the biggest psychiatry, the
30:06
American Psychiatric Association conference, and we're talking a
30:09
lot about AI and identity, right?
30:11
What does it feel like to you all to sit on my couch with all my plants,
30:15
I get you a spin drift, I have like four or five different flavors.
30:18
I sit there, I look right into your eyes, or we look at each other in
30:21
screens, and I do something that doesn't happen a lot these days.
30:24
I don't have my phone out, and I wanna hear about your inner worlds.
30:28
And if you talk to me about, scheduling, the stuff, the this, that, okay.
30:32
But eventually I'm gonna be like, "Hey, t-tell me more about…
30:34
I wanna make sure I'm hearing about you.
30:35
How are you?
30:36
How's your mental health?
30:37
How are you feeling inside?
30:38
What's going on in there?
30:39
What are you thinking about?
30:40
What are you worried about?
30:41
What's going well?
30:42
What are you struggling maybe to celebrate and not recognize?"
30:45
and so that very human process, being present with each other, but
30:49
kinda having that, I would say like clinical awareness and clinical
30:52
radar that's different than AI.
30:54
AI can know what life stage you're at, can know how old you are.
30:58
I can kinda sit and hear your developmental history and hear about your
31:02
object relationships and the people in your life and how it feels to sit with
31:07
you and how you describe yourself and what you've done with your life and,
31:10
and have this, I'm gonna say like human sense o-of who you are that I'm not sure
31:16
I could quite program an, algorithm.
31:18
Like it felt really exciting to sit with you, or it felt a little strange
31:22
when you said that thing, a-and so that what's called embodiment
31:26
David Friedman, BS: You said the magic word, "It felt."
31:28
Do you see how you're responding to that as a human being?
31:30
I've yet to see that word from an AI.
31:33
Drew Ramsey, MD: Yeah.
31:33
Well, you know, It it's trying.
31:36
Well, I mean, I think there's that question of it's trying and what
31:39
actually is a feeling and, when you think about this kind of mashup
31:42
we have now of all the interest in consciousness and psychedelics, all
31:46
the interest in AI, all of the ways that we're trying, you know, we're all
31:50
trying in these chats to do something.
31:54
I've had this feeling of incredible-- I have all these science articles sitting
31:57
around my office that I'll print and I'll read a little bit of, or I'll read
32:01
the whole thing, and I'll make notes on, but I, won't write a blog on it
32:04
or, they just stack up over the years.
32:06
I have hundreds of them.
32:07
it feels pretty cool.
32:09
Well, what if I feed all those into AI and, each one it turns into a
32:12
blog and my voice, and that begins to feel really exciting and powerful.
32:16
And then when we begin to see that fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty percent of what
32:20
we're seeing online is AI-generated.
32:24
I think authenticity and people will
32:26
David Friedman, BS: And it's sad because, you know, I've shared my garden
32:29
for, 12 years, pictures of my garden.
32:30
Everybody's like, "Oh, I love it."
32:31
Now I share it, guess what?
32:33
"Is that AI?
32:33
Is that real?"
32:34
I'm like, "Oh my God, I can't even post my own garden now
32:36
Drew Ramsey, MD: Yeah.
32:37
No, it's funny.
32:37
I was thinking that at the beginning of every Instagram post, I can
32:40
make like a blood sacrifice, like a little-- no, like a little pin prick
32:44
and like smear it, you know, where you can see like it's really me.
32:48
But I, I realize that's maybe a little old school.
32:50
But,
32:51
but, you know, I do hope, uh, Dr.
32:52
Freeman, I hope everybody listening, that you have a vote AI is very good
32:57
at pulling us in, but, really trying to support voices, particularly in the
33:00
health and wellness space, that are credentialed, that are trustworthy, that
33:05
are balanced, that prevent evidence.
33:07
You know, we haven't gotten into the evidence about mood and food here, but,
33:10
I can rattle off five or six randomized controlled trials, the highest standard
33:14
in evidence, around, for example, treating depression and adding on
33:18
a Mediterranean diet and getting a third of people fully into remission.
33:23
And that study's been replicated multiple times in multiple populations.
33:27
supporting making sure that your feed is full of voices that you can trust.
33:31
We all get intrigued, following the bully, following the heretic,
33:36
following, uh, paladin, you know, following these people that appeal
33:41
to our emotions, the contrarian.
33:43
And you just need to be very mindful and cautious about who you let in.
33:49
in mental health, we talk all the time about boundaries.
33:52
And people often mistake-- They think that's just about like not acting out,
33:55
like not drinking, like, not flirting.
33:58
And it's like, no.
33:59
No, no, no, no, no, no.
34:01
Boundaries is also it's about what you don't let in.
34:04
and people miss that part of it when-- You know, we talk a lot about like
34:07
when you end up engaging, and people talk about like emotional vampires.
34:11
It's, a great example of, when you don't have boundaries, when you
34:14
let anyone have access to you, your feelings, your emotional system, that
34:18
isn't being disciplined with your mental health and your mental fitness.
34:22
You know, it's kind of just like in my mind, it's like not exercising,
34:25
not watching what you eat, not thinking about your sleep hygiene.
34:28
It's just this missed opportunity to care for yourself.
34:31
And so, boundaries are there to protect us and to keep us safe and secure.
34:35
So within the boundary, we can be ourselves.
34:38
We can be comfortable, calm, effective, powerful.
34:43
we're not kind of anxiously looking at the distance worried.
34:46
David Friedman, BS: Such great advice.
34:47
Time flew by.
34:48
Boy, we got to get you back.
34:49
I had so many other questions I want to ask, we'll definitely do a part two.
34:51
We'd l- love to have you back
34:53
Drew Ramsey, MD: I would love to be back, Dr.
34:55
Freedman.
34:55
Thanks so much.
34:56
Sorry to go on and on, but I
34:57
David Friedman, BS: No, it was great, great info.
34:59
I'm sure a lot of our listeners took lots of notes, but guess what?
35:01
That's not necessary because you can get all of this and more in Dr.
35:05
Ramsey's latest book, Healing the Modern Brain: Nine Tenets to Build
35:09
Mental Fitness and Revitalize Your Mind.
35:12
Highly recommend getting a copy, and you can do that at drewramseymd.com.
35:18
And while there, be sure and check out the many resources that he has
35:21
available, including informative articles.
35:23
He's got videos and e-courses.
35:25
You can also follow Dr.
35:27
Drew on Instagram, @dr.drewramseymd.
35:31
On Facebook, he's @dr.drewramsey.
35:34
You can follow me on Facebook, @dr.davidfriedman.
35:37
On Instagram, I'm @dr.dfriedman.
35:39
And if you heard something today that somebody you know needs to hear, I'm
35:43
sure you did 'cause they have a brain.
35:44
If they have a brain, they need to hear this podcast.
35:47
You can send them a link from, uh, toyourgoodhealthradio.com
35:51
and peruse our podcast library and share these segments of interest with friends,
35:55
family, coworkers, and on social media.
35:57
As you always hear me say, sharing is caring.
35:59
This information is too important.
36:01
Don't be selfish.
36:02
Don't keep it to yourself.
36:03
And you can subscribe to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, and iHeartRadio.
36:08
More to come.
36:08
Stay tuned and stay well