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Lindsay Clancy Trial Days 1&2 · Don't Quote Me....

• Tori: Okay, welcome back to Don't Quote Me. Today, we're gonna spice it up a little bit. everybody has been coming to me about this Lindsay Clancy trial, and I am more than a few days of trial behind. However, I feel like this is something that I'm specifically interested in it. so today I want to talk about days one and two of her trial. that stood out to me just not as a therapist, but as a mom as well. And let me tell you, these are two very different lenses. Because my therapist part of me wants to be like, what is happening psychologically? What sips symptoms were present? What treatment is she actually receiving? What were the warning signs? What is happening in the postpartum period? not just the last p child that she had, but between all three of them, right? Like the mom side of me is just like, yes, I get it. I had postpartum. It is not fun. It is not easy. It's not simple. It is not something that you can just navigate lightly with roses and flowers and taking bubble baths and getting a day or two of your husband watching the child or somebody watching your children. It's something that actually changes so much within you. And I think both of those perspectives are something important to address. So before we get started though, I want to make a couple of things clear. First, this is an ongoing criminal case, right? So I am not the treating clinician, forensic evaluator or an expert in this case whatsoever. I am not diagnosing Lindsay Clancy and I am not determining whether she was experiencing psychosis or not. I'm certainly not determining whether she is legally responsible. That's the court and the jury's hands. That's all you guys will then. What I'm here to talk about is just like what has been publicly presented in court and discussing the mental health themes and patterns, and also the maternal health issues that go through my therapist perspective and formulance, right? Like what I see as a working clinician. And because this case involves the deaths of children, I'm also going to intentionally avoid unnecessary graphic details sensationalizing what happened, right? It is about understanding what we're actually hearing and seeing within the courtrooms. Okay, so let's start with day one. So the trial began July twenty-seventh, two thousand six, in Plymouth Superior Court in Massachusetts, right? Lindsay Clancy is accused of killing her three children in January of twenty twenty-three. Her defense is arguing that she was experiencing severe mental illness, including postpartum psychosis, and therefore was not criminally responsible for the murders of her children. However, the prosecution position is like very different. They're arguing that the killings were intentional and that Clancy understood what she was doing And that difference is really the central question of the entire trial. Is that's what I'm gathering, right? Whether it was a mental illness versus actual criminal responsibility for these cases. And those are necessarily the same question. Because cler criminal criminally, just for my small understanding of criminal justice, meaning it seems like she was planning it, she was plotting it, knew what she was gonna do, how she was gonna do it. She planned it down to getting her husband out of the house, supposedly, having him run these errands so that she has enough time to do these things. And then the mental illness side. They're saying that she heard a man's voice telling her to murder her children and herself. And that is what is called the psychosis. Because you're hearing hal voices that was never there, I believe they said that this was the only time she's ever heard that voice, the first and last time she ever heard that voice. So that's something that's very serious to take into consideration as well, when it comes to psychosis. Okay, they give all their little intake, they spill to the jury, what's happening, which way they should look at this case, provide like details, photographs and things like that. And then Patrick Clancy takes the stand. He was the first witness. And that is when the mom part of me actually kicked in. Because before you even get into the legal arguments, you're hearing a father talk about his children, Cora, Dawson, and Callan. You're hearing about their personalities, their routine, their family structure, and then you're hearing about the deterioration of his wife's mental health. Patrick described Lindsay as a struggling as struggling significant significantly in the months before the deaths, including anxiety, intrusive thoughts, sleeping problems, suicidal thoughts, and psychiatric treatment. And that is where I found myself like questioning like how many people around a struggling mom actually understand how serious these things become? Because sometimes people know while she's struggling, or she has the baby blues, but they don't necessarily realize this can become something dangerous, right? And those are very important things to look at. it sounds like you had a whole life outside of your family, going to brunch, hanging out with friends, doing these things. And yeah, Lindsay had a life. But she's just going to the gym, hanging out with your family, kids, nannies. And I'm not again not justifying anything, but it's just that. was something that stood out to me the most too, 'cause I'm just like, Well, you get to go out and you're having this life and she's sitting here mentally deteriorating it was a sticky feeling within me when I heard that. so yeah. And then something that I really wanted to slow down and talk about is because the term intrusive thoughts has become very common online, right? And it can mean a lot of different things depending on the context. Intrusive thoughts can be unwanted, disturbing thoughts, or images that enter somebody's mind. And having an intrusive thought does not automatically mean someone wants to act on it. That is what's incredibly important. Okay? Especially for postpartum moms. A mother can have a horrifying thought. pop up in her head and be absolute absolutely terrified by it. And the thought itself isn't necessarily intent. So, what is the actual thought? How often is it happening? What does the person want the thought? Are they afraid of it? Do they believe it? Do they have intent? Do they have a plan? Are they experiencing hallucinations or delusions? Do they feel in control of their behavior? There's a lot that goes on to trying to understand what's actually happening with intrusive thought. I think a good example that I love to use is whenever you're like driving down the road and you're just like, I wonder what happened if I just turn to the left and wreck my car. That's a intrusive thought, like 'cause the logical side of you will come back and be like, girl, what? Wreck the car? Why would we do that? The impulsivity of wrecking the car doesn't even make sense. So it just depends on like if we actually believe that this is something that we wanna do and are okay with it or are afraid of it. But those are the main questions that as a therapist you should be asking your clients when they come in and say, Yeah, I'm having these intrusive thoughts. We want to know how realistic they are to you. how you actually connect to them, whether you believe them, want to go through with them or not. And then we go down to some postpartum health, right? This is probably the biggest reason I wanted to talk about this case because postpartum mental health is still something that we don't talk about enough in the communities. And I want to make a really important distinction with this. Postpartum depression is not postpartum psychosis. There is different conditions. The postpartum psychosis is very rare, rare, but it is a sci psychiatric emergency. It can involve symptoms such as hallucinations, delusions, severe confusion, disorganized thinking, extreme mood changes, loss of contact with reality. And there's something I really want every mom to listen to, to understand when it comes to this. Having postpartum depression or anxiety, does that mean that you're going to actually develop postpartum psychosis? now. postpartum depression is a common mood disorder involving prolonged sadness and anxiety, whereas postpartum psychosis is a rare severe psychiatric emergency marked by a loss of touch with reality. So postpartum depression, PPD, affects about one in seven mothers, new mothers. PP postpartum psychosis is rare, affecting one to two in a thousand deliveries. It is not something that is common, and it is so important to know that. So if you're becoming a mom or you're currently a mom and you are like listening to this and you're well, I have postpartum depression, do not assume that it's going to go into psychosis. This is something that is extremely rare. This is something that It just doesn't come about easily. It could take up to forty eight hours to seventy two hours or even two weeks after delivery to develop as postpartum depression can be a few weeks and can last for months after your birth. Jeez. Like and then like even though we have depression and anxiety with postpartum depression, right? You yes, we can lose I say this very loosely, lose touch with reality, but it's more so of like I have no interest in the things that I'm used to doing. As for postpartum psychos, it's just like do you see that? Do you hear that? I hear somebody talking, I hear somebody telling me something. Or I like she said, she hears a voice telling her to harm her kids and things like that. it also reminds me of the Andrea Yates case years ago. This is kind of a repetition of that in a sense, at least for me. So now I'm gonna switch my lens a little bit because as being a mom, one thing that hit me hard is hearing that Lindsay appeared to have these moments where she was functioning. She was interacting with her children, went to appointments, participated in normal family activities. I recall Patrick even testifying that she appeared to be having one of her better days and that she built a snowman with the children earlier that day. And I think that's something that people misunderstand about mental health, right? Someone can look okay and not be okay. Someone can laugh, someone can get dressed, someone can take care of their child, somebody can take their child to the actual doctor, take themselves to the doctor, can make dinner, can send a normal text message, and that doesn't necessarily mean that what is happening to you internally is okay. Like you're not okay internally. And this is so important. Normal behavior by itself does not prove psychosis either. That's why this trial is so complicated as well. You can't take one moment and use it to explain an entire person's mental health, right? So I think it's good that they're also like going back and Behaviors that she was having before this event actually took place. Like we're digging back all the way into her mental health. Okay, day two of the trial. it was difficult to kind of just watch in silent because my YouTube put it in silence when they put the nine one one call from Patrick after he turned home and discovered what all happened and the court had to hear the t Hear more testimony about Lindsay's mental health struggles and her treatment before the tragedy. just like it panned into her and like seeing her squeeze the hand of her lawyer and just sobbing while the 911 call is going on. In my mo mind as a mom, I'm just like, I couldn't even fathom reliving that experience, let alone even imagine what it would be like being that actual mom. In that moment. It just makes it sticky because it's just like you're having to relive the loss of your children and you trying to harm yourself and not wanting to be alive, and yet here you are, having to live that again. And You are the one that survived and they didn't. Like in my mind, I'm just like, that has to be the most painful thing to live with every single day. If this is something that was not intended to happen, right? And I'm not saying she's guilty or innocent on any of that accord, It was really chilling to watch. and I think that it was very impactful too, like being able to have the pause for the emotional impact of the evidence. And I think that it's important to remember that we're not watching a television show. This is actually a real life family. These are real children and this is their real father. the state basically brought out the pajamas of the babies and the material that was used to end their lives and seeing the father's face just turn pale. It's different from watching it on a TV show. That's why I try to say, like, you have to realize that this is actual real life people and this is actually their real lives that this has happened to. yeah, the TV shows can make it seem qu like more intense and things like that, but like I don't know, just watching the blood wash away from his face, like just seeing the horror and pain. It was very sad. It was very, very sad. And just knowing like Their lives will never be the same. And like I Googled him afterwards, and I was he's like, remarried and things like that. But it's just like he married a mo a woman who is in IBF, like a doctor in IBF and things like that. So it's just like, just imagine losing all three of your children and then having to go back out into the world and live this normal life. so another issue that came up early in the trial was Lindsay's psychiatric treatment and the number of medications that she was prescribed, right? So reports from the trial described intensive medication, tracking, and treatment during the period leading up to the killings. And this rises in important clinical conversation. So when someone is deteriorating despite treatment, what happens next? Because sometimes we think, well, They're getting their treatment, so they're okay. Kind of like what the state said. They were like, she has all these treatment and all of these things. She just didn't simply use it right. But treatment isn't always simple. A person can receive treatment and still be getting worse. Medication can help, medication can also have side effects. Medication can interact with other medications negatively. A diagnosis can change, a symptom can evolve. And sometimes the treatment plan needs to be reassessed. And that's not me saying what happened in this particular case was caused by medication, but for the experts and the evidence to be established and what they gave me, I'm saying this case raises important questions about how we respond when someone is saying something isn't right. And I think it was important that she advocated for herself, saying, Like, this is not working, this is not working, this is not working, what else can we do basically? And one of the th biggest things that I also wanted to pull from this case isn't how could a mother do this? Is this actually More so of like what is happening when a mother struggles and everyone around her assumes that she'll just be okay. Because moms are really good at saying, Yeah, I'm fine. It's good. No problem. Even when we're not fine. And sometimes people around them are really good at accepting that I'm fine because it's easier, right? There's a baby, because there's another child. There's work. There's dinner that has to be made. Because life has to keep on going. However, sometimes moms need someone to stop and ask again, no, really, how are you doing? What's going on? Even if you are okay, what can I do to help lift your load even more right now? Because it also like rolls into the part where but she's a she was a good mom, right? Like we have everybody saying like how good sh of a mom she was, showing these pictures and videos and everything that she would do, diaries or notebooks I should say, keeping track of like what to do with her children when babysitters came and were getting used to the house and stuff. And I thought it was interesting 'cause they were saying like she's trying to be controlling, a part of me is like, yeah, I would want to make sure that I have control of everything that somebody is doing to my newborn too. Like I want to make sure that they they get the routine and structure for my baby so that I know that they're okay. So you'll also hear people describe Lindsay as a loving mother, and I think people struggle with that because they think a loving mother wouldn't actually do this. But mental illness doesn't always fit neatly into our understanding of someone's personality, right? A person can have loved their children, a person can have been a devoted parent, a person can have had meaningful relationships, and a severe psychiatric crisis can actually still happen. That doesn't erase the harm, it doesn't erase the children's lives, it doesn't erase the father's trauma, but it can be a part of understanding the clinical picture. Multiple things can be true at the same time. That's the most important part of that, right? I feel like it just circles back to like those questions like, why didn't anybody know? If she was struggling, why didn't somebody know how bad it was? And sometimes people did know she was struggling. The harder question becomes, did they understand how severe it actually was though? There's a difference between she's having a hard time and she's experiencing psychiatric emergency. And that's when the distinction matters. And I think that that was something that kind of got answered when Patrick was like, Yeah, no, so you're actually gonna go to this hospital. Like this is the last time we're gonna be coming to the emergency room. You're gonna have to go check in here, which I feel like was a good thing on his part because I feel like it showed him like the severity of like what's going on with her mentally. And he took the initiative to be like, Yeah, no, However, whatever occurred in their care, that's where things start to become blurry for me because it he's saying that she's playing with Play Doh and Clay and watching movies, but then there's records showing that no, she's been checked on. There has been doctors and nurses coming in and out and things like that. And now somebody who's worked in a psychiatric hospital, they're not always the best, regardless if a doctor or therapist or anybody has checked in. A lot of times those people are also burnt out that work there, especially hearing that it was during COVID. everybody was extremely burnt out around that time, especially working in the mental field and working around these professions. So that is something that also needs to like be taken into consideration when it comes to her mental health care. When we're talking about postpartum mental mental health as well, some warning signs deserve mint immediate attention. Things like severe or rapid worsening depression, intense anxiety or agitation, inability to actually sleep, extreme confusion, paranoia, hearing or seeing things that others don't believe believing that believing. Here's where I want to emphasize things. You don't wait for someone to become dangerous before taking the symptoms serious. If someone shows signs of losing touch with reality or is expressing suicidal or homicidal thoughts, it's not a we'll see how tomorrow goes type of conversation. It's a we need to get you help now and we need to evacuate the premises now. We need to go pack a bag, let's roll out type of conversation. But here's when my mom perspective also comes back because I think one of the hardest parts of motherhood is that you're expected to be responsible for another human being while you're trying to figure out who you are after becoming a mother. You're exhausted, you're healing physically, mentally, emotionally. Your hormones are changing, your relationships may change as well, your identity changes, your body changes, your sleeping patterns change, your responsibilities explode. And we're still telling moms, enjoy every moment. Girl, sometimes I'm just trying to survive. Y'all are lucky I'm even here my damn self half the time. Because all the things that goes behind being a mom is what I like to say quote unquote yetto. This is all shit ton of things that like I I don't even can't even wrap my head around sometimes. the other day I was in the car and one of my kids were sick and the other Two are just like, well, he was he told me he wasn't sick, and I asked him and I checked his temperature, and I was like, you know what? I can't argue with you guys. I don't know what to tell y'all. Why am I even arguing with an eight-year-old and a ten-year-old right now about a six-year-old? Like, this is a lot. Like, it no matter how many books, workbooks that doctors and all these people come out with, yes, they're helpful tools. However People still react differently when becoming moms and parents. Like it's it's literally survival to the fittest out here in this wild ass place. And that's why the post postpartum care matters the most because we talk a lot about like is the baby healthy? But I want us to ask, is mom okay? Not are you enjoying motherhood? Not is the baby sleeping? Not do you hear do you have everything you need for the baby? But like, how are you? How are you sleeping? Are you feeling like yourself? Are you having thoughts that scare you? Do you actually feel safe with yourself? Those questions matter with to the mom. And I think that once I started studying Becoming a counselor and like diving into like different things I didn't buy the babies nothing. Everybody else doesn't do that. I'm buying nipple pads, nipple cream, wine, self-care books, robes, fluffy slippers, a little pass to go to the movies for mom because she's gonna matter just as much as that baby is gonna matter. If she's not gonna be able to survive this. It's gonna be a very bumpy road for that baby and the family to survive it. So we have to think about the moms just as much as we care about the babies, guys. And for the people around moms, your partners, grandparents, friends, siblings, doctors, therapists, everyone, pay attention to changes. Not just is she functioning, but is she different? All those questions again, is she withdrawing? Is she usually fear unusually fearful right now? Is she saying things that don't make sense? Is she talking about death? Is she more curious about like what it would look like if she wasn't here? Does she say that she doesn't feel like herself anymore? Is she expressing thoughts that scare herself? Sometimes the people closest to us are the ones that can help notice the changes. Wow. Before we actually do as the individual ourselves. And my biggest takeaway thus far from these first two trials is it isn't even a diagnosis. It's mental health, maternal mental health specifically deserves to be taken seriously before a crisis. Not after, not when everyone is asking, How do we not notice this? How do we not see this? But when a mom first says something doesn't feel right, that's when we need to listen and start taking action. And at the end with the two voices I mentioned at the beginning, therapist me wants to understand I want to know I want to know what symptoms are present, what diagnoses were discover considered, what treatment occurred, what warning signs existed, what the clinicians knew, what Lindsay knew, what was happening psychologically, and what the experts ultimately determined. I'm hearing about three children that were taken away early from their dad and their mom, and it just feels heartbroken because these two perspectives don't have to compete. I can just have compassion for someone experiencing severe mental illness and have grief for the children who passed. And I want better maternal care, especially better health. mental health maternal care for us women out there and recognize that the devastating consequences of what could happen if we don't take more care to this. And I say I do feel bad for her too because I think I hold on to what her therap her therapist, what her lawyer said at the beginning, where he was just like, She doesn't want to be alive either. And I sat back in the back of my mind, I'm like, just imagine how pissed if I was to put myself in her if I was to be like This happened and I tried to do something and I did not succeed at this. How pissed I would be. To still be here. And how pathetic I would feel. And this is just me as my individual self. I'm not saying that this this is how she should feel, how anybody else should feel, but I would just feel so small and pathetic because I'm not gone to. I did that and now I'm here when it should have just been the other way around. Then that's kind of like where I want to leave this first episode. Not with the verdict, not with the diagnosis, but with a conversation. Because if this case teaches us anything, I hope it teaches us that we need to take maternal mental health seriously. Ask moms how they're doing. Listen to what they say when they say something is wrong. And even listen to the tone of voice when they say, Yeah, I'm fine. And don't assume because they look okay, they're actually okay. And at the same time, Let's be careful to not turn one horrific case into a stereotype about mothers with mental health. Okay. Most mothers experience postpartum depression, anxiety, or other postpartum co cond conditions are not going to harm their children. Mental health treatment is about peop helping people, not labeling labeling them as something dangerous. And I feel like that's important in all aspects. We don't need to define a person by their mental health. We need to understand what's going on to their with their mental health to actually help them. So how this trial continues, I'm gonna keep watching it through both of my lens, the therapist me and the mom me. And I'm going to leave the legal conclusions to the people that are doing their job to make that so. Thank you for listening. Take care of yourself. And if you're a mom listening to this, please check on yourself too. Not just your babies, but you because you matter and remember just because I said it, Doesn't mean you quote me on it.