Latest / The Payments Shed / Ep. 34 - Navigating Travel Payments, Data, and the Merchant of Record Approach with Trust My Group & Repayd CEO Will Plummer

Transcript

Ep. 34 - Navigating Travel Payments, Data, and the Merchant of Record Approach with Trust My Group & Repayd CEO Will Plummer · The Payments Shed

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  Welcome to the Payment Shed Podcast, the weekly podcast that
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  dives into the big topics, trends and people shaping the
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  world's of payments, fintech and business leadership of your two
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  Co hosts, myself Grant Evans and Justin Hannah.
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  Welcome back to the Payment Shed podcast.
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  Today we are joined by Will Plummer, CEO of Trust My Group.
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  Will, thanks for coming in. Tell us a little more about you.
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  Well, thanks for having me. Great to be here.
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  So CEO of Trust My group and the group split into two main
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  companies. So on one side we've got TMU
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  management, so that's an insurance MGA providing credit
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  risk insurance to the travel industry, financial institutions
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  and FX houses. And then on the other side,
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  we've got repaid. It was formerly Trust My Travel,
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  which is a merchant of record solution for travel companies
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  basically. Hey, so I like the the the
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  merchant record piece gets excited when we talk about
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  payments. What I really kind of pulled you
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  into solving problems in in the payments world from a travel
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  perspective. Good question.
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  I think I'm a problem solver at heart.
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  I'm sort of I like to tinker with different things and that's
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  probably been my end doing at times.
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  But was in travel before selling outbound travel, selling inbound
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  travel to Oman. Actually, I used to run ADMC in
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  Oman and it was looking at some of the challenges around that.
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  So we're going back 2000 and six, 2007.
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  It was really easy to build your own website. e-commerce was in
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  its infancy, but also things like financial protection were
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  also in their infancy as they met e-commerce.
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  And it was what could we actually do to, to marry that?
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  So we originally started with a trust account solution and then
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  it was how do you get money into the trust account?
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  Bank transfers obviously initially, but then payments,
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  credit card payments came in, came in and here we are today
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  built up into a fully fledged sort of payment company.
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  And when I guess did the merchant of record model first
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  click for you guys as this is the route we need to be going
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  down, were the pain points that did you start in a different
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  place and you're like, we can't keep going like this.
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  We need to look at a different way of doing things.
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  I think merchant of record on the whole is a pain point and I
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  wouldn't say we've necessarily gone.
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  We've we've solved it and we're happy.
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  You know, we take legal advice every year to check we meet the
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  regulations that we're doing the right things by our customers
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  and by the market. So yeah, it's, it's probably
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  still up in the air, but it was certainly early on.
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  How do we get money from from A to B?
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  We do a lot of business outside of the UK, outside of Europe.
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  So there are varying challenges around that where a pay FAC
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  wouldn't actually fit that model.
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  But what we've done with that merchant of record is we are
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  actually providing a service to the customer.
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  So we're providing financial protection to the consumer.
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  So we on board the travel company and then we are taking
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  that that consumers money and protecting it either with the
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  funds sat in a trust account until after travel or we're
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  insuring them against the against the merchants
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  insolvency. And you take on a level of risk
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  by being the Mor then as well and you're.
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  Of course. Yeah, absolutely.
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  I mean that that's what goes hand in hand with being an Mor
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  is you are taking on that risk and you've got to acknowledge
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  that. You've got to acknowledge that
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  with the acquirers, with the schemes because any failures
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  that coming to you. So for us, that's a lot of due
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  diligence when we're on boarding, but also where the
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  models being built up is with that security in place.
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  So we have this insurance that protects everyone through the
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  value chain on that, which includes back to the acquirers.
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  So they're actually getting a level of comfort from us, a high
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  level of comfort because they're endorsed within an insurance
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  policy which protects them in the event of merchant failure.
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  And then ensuring chargebacks. And just picking up a small on a
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  small thing, then you sort of acquire as plural.
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  So you have multiple acquirer relationships.
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  Yeah, I think that's crucial. Especially in travel, right?
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  Especially, especially in travel, we also work multi,
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  multi geography. So we're looking at where we can
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  process closer to where the consumer is less, we're less
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  concerned with where the the travel provider is, is located.
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  But also, I'm not sure burnt is the right word.
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  But we've certainly, we've explored a lot of things where
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  we've gone down a single acquirer relationship.
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  COVID was, you know, a real exponent of that.
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  And, and I would encourage anybody in a space like travel,
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  to your point, Justin, to to look at a multi acquirer
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  strategy. I think that's prudent.
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  Appetites change, you know, whether they're going for an IPO
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  or a fundraising, but also how the market looks at travel.
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  I think you've got to have that protection, whether you're ours
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  or whether you're a travel company just getting a acquired
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  relationship yourself. Look at COVID right or I, I, I
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  talk about COVID, but actually example I always get from credit
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  risk teams and I was selling to travel and analyzers.
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  No one expected the cloud ash in 2000 and whenever it was right
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  and all of a sudden the world's ending and, and people losing
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  millions. And I remember I tried to win a
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  huge travel business once. I can't say names.
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  And I remember sitting in a meeting room with our credit
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  risk team saying like they're never going to fail.
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  Look at the size of Thomas Cook. Too big to fail, but.
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  They're too big to fail. And then the day it happened,
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  all I got was a one sentence e-mail from my head of risk
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  saying I told you and it was a link to the Thomas Cook claps.
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  So I think it's a really good point.
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  Now around we always go to credit risk and say, yeah,
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  there's a risk, but these guys would never fail.
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  They've got this behind them and they've got that behind them,
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  but you just don't know what's going on sometimes.
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  Yeah, it's true. What do you think then that are
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  the biggest misconceptions from a merch to record to a pay FAC?
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  What they're doing and, and the role they're sort of playing
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  within, within an ecosystem, you know, a payment facilitator
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  who's obviously regulated and and sort of heavily regulated
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  and controlled in that they take a limit of risk.
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  But ultimately that's still, it's still sitting largely on,
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  on the merchant with us. We're, we're taking again to
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  Grant's point, we're taking all the risk.
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  So it's for us to justify that to the acquirers again to the
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  schemes, but also give that level of comfort to the market,
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  both to the travel providers that trust us, but to their
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  consumers who suddenly, you know, they get a receipt from
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  us. That's our, that's our duty as
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  merchant of record. So really making sure that they
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  understand why they've paid us, why the money's come to us and
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  what we're doing for them. It's such a fascinating spot.
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  I think every acquirer looks at the merchant of record part of
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  the ecosystem with slightly different eyes as well.
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  Some see Mor as a pay FAC almost and that it you know, it
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  shouldn't exist. Whereas others that dive deeper
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  into the finer terms and conditions, the contracts
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  between I I think that's maybe what it is.
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  There's an there's an element of I'm gonna say laziness.
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  Maybe it's not the right word, but do they have to review a
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  fine tooth? Comb your contract with the
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  customer, the customer's contract with their customer,
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  Right? It's like, it just seems like
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  hard work. We can just say they're a pay
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  FAC, but you know, you're not the pay FAC and there is a very
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  real reason why. Merchant record and pay FAC are
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  two different things. But I think we've maybe got a
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  little bit lazy in the industry around having them very much in
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  defined buckets. I think we can blame sales
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  people on that a little bit, right?
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  Because you've got sales people that are trying to win a bigger
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  contract value. Yep, they will do what they want
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  and what they can to manipulate. Manipulate a conversation to try
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  and win a bigger deal. Agreed.
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  Yeah, I think as well back to all that point you, you speak to
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  a lot of requires and they use the what I call The Dirty a word
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  which is aggregator and they see merchant of records as an
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  aggregator. And there is there are a lot of
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  cases of that, there's a lot of history of that.
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  But certainly we go out of our way to say no, we are actually
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  delivering value and a product within this transaction.
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  We're providing that financial protection and that's an
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  important distinction and that for the acquirers to understand,
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  they see the value. You know, we have acquirers that
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  will actually refer as business because of the value add that
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  we're giving and also offsetting that risk.
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  Again, you know, what can you do to balance that sales with your
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  risk team to make sure that it goes through and you as a bank
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  can actually process that payment?
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  I love that narrative. So acquirers are like
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  understanding the hard work you've done to enable them to be
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  de risked from a travel company point of view and then they're
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  sending you their travel business.
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  And that's a, that's a big thing, you know, it's
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  understanding that risk. And I would, I would suggest
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  that a lot of acquirers that are in travel and for a lot, I think
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  you'd agree travel is a golden ticket because they can
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  sometimes charge high higher premiums on that, albeit comes
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  with an offset at scheme level. It's really a lot of them do not
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  have an understanding of the risk they're taking on.
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  They say they've got level three data.
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  They say they've got an analysis and understanding the risk.
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  I say a naughty word, but let's just say no they haven't.
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  Nice. And kind of what do you think
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  was kind of your purpose of motivation and how'd that evolve
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  as the company has grown into what it is today?
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  It does my personal motivation. It's a really interesting and
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  nice kind of juxtaposition between different industries.
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  Love travel, love travelling, love that industry.
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  It's a really fun and interesting industry to be in.
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  And then you throw in payments which has different complexities
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  and you know, different viewpoints on things.
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  We've also post COVID obviously got into the insurance industry
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  as well. And all together, there's a huge
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  crossover, but a really interesting diversification and
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  we quite like the fact that we can dip our toes in and out and
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  and meet all of them. And I guess the biggest
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  challenge that you faced early days when going down the
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  merchant Rep, sorry harp on about merchant Rep, that was the
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  biggest challenge that you faced when you initiate it going into
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  that model. It, it's, it goes back to kind
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  of what we were saying, you know, it's getting an, you've
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  got to break the ice somewhere. So it's getting an acquirer to
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  really understand what you're doing and you need someone to,
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  to go 1st. And when we started, that was
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  2012. You know, it's a very different
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  space than we are now. Aggregator was a word that was
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  banded around a lot. Did you go straight into that
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  model as well then or did you have to go on a non M no, so
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  you? Were literally like this.
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  We were straight Mor, we explored in fact we when it was
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  still the FSA, you know, we were originally registered with them
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  in terms of not, not as a pay fact, but what we could do as a
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  payments business and, and how that SAT.
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  But again, taking a lot of legal advice, understanding how the
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  model SAT, we realised that actually that was hampering what
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  we were doing and we needed to take that away mainly because of
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  the relations we had with outbound payment companies.
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  You know, they don't like dealing with two registered or
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  regulated entities. So, so that was a challenge.
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  But on the Mor yeah, it it kind of, I don't want to say that was
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  the easiest route. That was the easiest route
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  conceptually in terms of what we were trying to achieve.
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  But actually it probably came with more challenges.
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  And the way we on board, the way we DD and do KYB on our
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  customers is probably at the same level or harsher than a a
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  sort of payback pay FAC onboarding.
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  Because you know to your earlier point, it's our risk.
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  We've got to take it on. We also have to demonstrate and
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  we're willing to demonstrate to all our acquirers, you know why
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  we've onboarded where the risk sits etcetera.
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  But yeah, so it was, I'm not sure early on we necessarily
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  considered another route. We, we have since obviously and
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  we've explored that but merged of record and I think the more
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  we do it and the longer this has been going and the greater
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  understanding there is within the the payment space, the more
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  opportunity there is, but also what a great pathway it can be.
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  You probably get that you know, acquirer sort of five years ago
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  wouldn't speak to you that's now coming back a little bit with
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  their tail between their legs going oh guys you've got the
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  volume now can. We have your volume, please.
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  Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
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  No. I think that that when I was
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  selling into that space, each year it would kind of change
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  appetite where I'd have a merchant come to me, I'd put to
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  my risk team, they'd say no. The next year, they'd say yes.
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  On the flip side, I would lose a deal to another acquirer and
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  then have the same contact reach out to me saying we've been
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  capped at 5 million a month. Can we look to move a couple of
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  a million a month into into your processing platform?
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  And there's quite a few, especially in the OTA world now
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  that I've got 5 or 6 acquirers and there's a lot more travel
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  business now using orchestration platforms.
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  I booked a holiday yesterday, I know.
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  And as I went to book it, Cell Point Digital came up because
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  they are just doing more and more in that space now.
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  And and when it comes to orchestration platforms, winning
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  more travel businesses from a gateway and then looking at the
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  acquiring side. Yeah.
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  I, I think that's everywhere. And again, it's we, we've made
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  the point, I think travel needs that resilience of a multi
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  acquire strategy. I think it works for the
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  merchant as well. You know, you then you're
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  spreading risk, but you're also able to push back on pricing and
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  it's demonstrating what you're doing and how you're doing it.
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  And I think you've got to employ that strategy.
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  You an acquirer can say, Oh no, you're with us for life.
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  But every acquirer I've ever worked with, you know, their
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  appetite does change. You know, it doesn't take much.
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  It takes an ash cloud. It takes COVID to really know
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  where where things sit. You know, even during COVID,
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  some people were really willing to work with us and understood
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  what we were doing and how we were protecting them.
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  Others ran for the hills. Is there, is there a risk, do
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  you think that maybe some of the acquirers are underestimating
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  when it comes to credit risk? I think that is a case not just
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  amongst acquirers, but we see it in the insurance world, in the
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  bond space, within the travel industry.
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  People are underestimating the risk to win the business,
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  especially in some of the tier two acquirers where you know,
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  they want to get into the travel space, they want that that kudos
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  and that opportunity to to win that business.
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  And there's, there's huge volumes out there to the right
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  player. But for us, and I preach about
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  this a lot, it does come down to understanding the risk and
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  mitigating the risk. And I, I said to you in when we
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  were exchanging messages before, it all comes down to this data
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  and understanding exactly what's going on.
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  And whenever I talk, that will be the keyword.
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  I think if you want to, if people are paying bingo along to
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  this data is kind of the, the crucial part of all of this.
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  And I think wherever you sit, whether you're the merchant,
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  whether you're the acquirer, if you've got that data and if you
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  can understand that data, you can put yourself in such a
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  strong position to achieve whatever you want in the
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  payments world, whether you're in travel, which is considered
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  high risk or not. And.
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  Where do you think that the acquirers are overact,
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  overreacting and under reacting the most as far as the travel
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  sector is concerned? I think it depends who you are
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  as an acquirer. You know where you sit, what
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  you've, what you've taken on in your portfolio and also again
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  your understanding of exactly what is going on in your
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  portfolio. We know of some acquirers that
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  have got very profitable merchants that are disgusting
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  risk, but they make them sizeable amounts of money.
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  So they don't want to, they don't want to move them off that
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  off that books. But I think.
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  He's a merchant she wouldn't touch with a barge pole on your
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  own Mor so. No, I would not.
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  I would also say every single acquirer out there has has high
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  risk merchants where the margins are so big that they're willing
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  to take that risk and and that rough on the schemes.
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  Agreed. But then you've got to as a as a
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  merchant, you've got to play that forward, you know, are they
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  the acquirers that then have a knee jerk reaction and there's
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  an ash crowd cloud? It's just like, oh, let's get
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  everything out of travel. Oh, I'm having an IPO.
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  Let's get out of travel as fast as we can.
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  Or are you actually building a really healthy consolidated book
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  where you understand what's going on?
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  Yeah, you've got some high value, high risk merchants, but
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  they're nicely offset by, you know, some clean and maybe lower
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  value ones. And go again, just going back to
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  the insurance world, it's that balance of of risk, which I
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  think from an acquiring acquirer you have to sort of take that
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  viewpoint if you want to move forwards.
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  You know, even the big acquirers who are when they talk about
• 17:15
  travel, it's largely aviation based.
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  They can say, well, they're state backed airlines and
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  there's no risk whatsoever. But you know, if they fall, they
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  will fall hard. But you know, that becomes a
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  judgement wasn't. Like the the regional airlines
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  in the UK that go bust every six months and someone else goes and
• 17:35
  buys it again. You all know the the one we're
• 17:37
  talking about. Recently, 1/4 of them before
• 17:39
  every six. Months they go bust like these
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  little propeller planes. I mean, how many people need to
• 17:43
  fly from Exeter to Newcastle on a given week?
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  Like that's that's the question I'm asking.
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  I can't comment on that. You have to get someone from
• 17:49
  Exeter on that. But you know, it's like Chapter
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  11 in the US, isn't it? It, it, it's that kind of model
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  and that kind of risk. And I think you've got to
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  analyse and understand that. And I think again, that comes
• 18:02
  down to understanding the cash flow of these businesses.
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  And as an acquirer, how are you or merchant of record, how are
• 18:11
  you protecting that cash flow? You know, we will analyse a a
• 18:17
  customer and most customers have their money as they would get
• 18:22
  with a normal acquire relationship.
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  So they process a payment, they'll get paid out a week
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  later, half week later, whatever it may be.
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  But others start-ups higher risk.
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  We won't pay out until after travel.
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  We won't pay out until wheels up.
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  But it's understanding that risk and it's also having that
• 18:40
  flexibility around that risk. COVID, I'm not going to, I'm not
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  afraid to say that we put brakes on a lot of things and we just
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  stopped payout and that was the right decision because
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  subsequently a lot of refunds went out the.
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  Door can you look at an example then you don't have to name a
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  company, but was an example where you know a merchant on
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  paper looked very high risk. But using your data and the way
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  your products work, you will actually these guys aren't high
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  risk at all, but you're just not looking at them the right way or
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  the the maybe the direct acquirers they were speaking to
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  weren't looking at them the right way.
• 19:13
  Yeah. I mean, great question.
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  I'd say that that's what we do. I don't say that's what we do
• 19:18
  for for everybody, but but absolutely I would say we are
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  very good at converting high risk or was perceived as high
• 19:27
  risk merchants to lower risk merchants to the acquirer
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  because we're doing a number of things.
• 19:32
  We're controlling that that payout flow.
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  So we know where the cash is going and also holding back cash
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  doesn't necessarily mean that that's helping the merchant.
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  There are other scenarios where there's there's a whole back of
• 19:44
  cash and that's actually impacting the businesses ability
• 19:48
  to trade and then you're going, well, that's a vicious circle.
• 19:51
  So yeah, so you've got to understand what's going on
• 19:54
  there. You know, a lot of scenarios
• 19:55
  where in a tour operator or OTA space, you can actually through
• 20:00
  a trust account, we call them control accounts, but you can
• 20:03
  control the payments going to the suppliers within a booking.
• 20:08
  So you've got full visibility and a full audit trail of all of
• 20:11
  that happening. The suppliers getting paid, so
• 20:14
  they're happy you're mitigating risk.
• 20:16
  We actually ensure that whole value chain as well as part of
• 20:19
  what we do. But again, it it does come back
• 20:23
  to this visibility, it does come back to this data and being able
• 20:27
  to say, look, this is this is the lead in time.
• 20:30
  This is what's that risk, This is how we've adjusted that risk
• 20:34
  for you. But this is also how we've
• 20:35
  supported that business not go out of business because they've
• 20:39
  got no cash. And every scenario is different.
• 20:42
  I mean you guys know as well as I do, travel is a huge amount of
• 20:46
  verticals was a huge amount of varying risks and aviation is
• 20:52
  different from accommodation is different from to operators and
• 20:55
  even within those there are different make UPS of each of
• 20:58
  those in terms of what they do in the markets they serve.
• 21:02
  If you could rewrite the kind of the rule book for travel
• 21:05
  underwriting teams, what would you kind of change on it first?
• 21:12
  I would dictate a certain level of data and information that
• 21:16
  needs to be provided. And I would, I think probably at
• 21:21
  a scheme level, I would also dictate that the acquirers, if
• 21:25
  they want to get into travel and maybe you have to incentivise
• 21:27
  it's carrot and stick because a lot of them have to put down
• 21:30
  huge collateral to offset their risk in travel.
• 21:33
  But I'd actually say, look, this is a a data standard that we
• 21:37
  expect you to have as an acquirer and you start from that
• 21:41
  point and you have a real understanding because you talk
• 21:44
  to acquirers and they and you say, do you collect level three
• 21:46
  data? They say, yeah, we do it's OK.
• 21:49
  Can you, can you provide it to us?
• 21:51
  Well, we know that the average need in time is 6 months for
• 21:54
  that particular merchant. How?
• 21:57
  Well, because they told us, OK, that's kind of, you know, figure
• 22:01
  in the air stuff. And I think for something like
• 22:04
  that, any kind of delayed delivery merchant, that
• 22:08
  visibility is crucial. And we're in 2025, we've got AI
• 22:14
  that can break up that, you know, that mass, mass amounts of
• 22:17
  data. And that has to then be the next
• 22:20
  step forwards, I would have thought.
• 22:22
  Yeah. I was going to ask you about AI
• 22:24
  because you know, data is clearly not a buzzword for you
• 22:26
  guys. It's really essential part of
• 22:27
  your model. Are you starting to pull AI into
• 22:29
  your stack then? A little bit.
• 22:32
  And, you know, I think I got carried away because how do you
• 22:35
  shoehorn AI into your business come what may?
• 22:38
  And, and the best piece of advice I was given is only use
• 22:42
  AI if you've got a reason to use it.
• 22:44
  So we have just built it into our new platform on both sides.
• 22:49
  And for us, it's really about being able to analyse vast
• 22:52
  amounts of data that that's as far as we've gone at the moment.
• 22:56
  And that's twofold. So internally being able to, you
• 23:00
  know, we've, we've always had these kind of alerts.
• 23:02
  So with each merchant, we would say, where are we expecting the
• 23:06
  customers to come from, where are they travelling to?
• 23:10
  What's the average kind of lead in time and then alerts if that,
• 23:14
  if any of those change. So we can investigate, we can
• 23:17
  look at what's going on. But also on the front end when
• 23:21
  we're giving data to our travel providers, you know, our, our
• 23:26
  platform, our dashboard was very much this is what we think you
• 23:29
  want to see. This is the, the split of data
• 23:31
  we think you want to see. But we realise we've got all
• 23:34
  this data, let them decide if they want to see the amount of
• 23:39
  bookings they've had from the Cook Islands or what the split
• 23:42
  of Visa, MasterCard during this period was or that kind of
• 23:45
  thing. So that's where we've dipped our
• 23:48
  toe in with AI and we'll see moving forwards.
• 23:52
  And what's the single most important data track for you as
• 23:55
  a business? Do you have one particular thing
• 23:57
  or is is it multiples? No, it not really a single data
• 24:04
  track. It's a variant on what we set on
• 24:09
  a per merchant basis. So configuring that merchant day
• 24:12
  one in terms of expected numbers, expected leading times,
• 24:17
  expected destination, etcetera. Having the awareness when those
• 24:23
  things change and then having an understanding as to why they
• 24:26
  change. It's OK that they change.
• 24:28
  You know, businesses change, business opportunities come, but
• 24:31
  you know, we saw in the early stages of COVID, you know,
• 24:35
  safari operators whose average leading time was six months
• 24:38
  suddenly go to two weeks. When I see people selling out to
• 24:44
  20282029, I'm like, OK, if it's you can't book flights at the
• 24:50
  moment, if you're a tour operator, that's too far out.
• 24:53
  So that seems like a run for cash in a lot of businesses.
• 24:57
  So it's really understanding the changes in what what's been
• 25:01
  modelled. And then what we'll do is we, we
• 25:03
  audit based on risk. You know, everyone gets at least
• 25:06
  an annual audit, but it may be earlier, maybe more regular.
• 25:10
  If we consider high risk, we'll actually adjust those to to what
• 25:13
  we've seen. So we set a new kind of a bar
• 25:16
  and a standard line for each one.
• 25:18
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• 25:21
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  That's ISX dot Financial and a big thank you to the team at ISX
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  for supporting the show. How do you kind of separate that
• 26:02
  that the meaningful signals from noise when analysing the
• 26:06
  cancellations? A lot of that comes down to
• 26:11
  understanding the business, so understanding who you're dealing
• 26:14
  with, seeing what's actually happening, seeing what the the
• 26:21
  customer behaviour is as well. Does that increase chargeback
• 26:24
  rates? We have, because we're motion of
• 26:26
  record, we've obviously got all of the customer details so we
• 26:30
  can reach out. We can get on top of things, you
• 26:33
  know if there is a run to charge backs or if there is fear of
• 26:36
  certain things, wing out on top of things like that.
• 26:41
  It's also having that close relationship with the travel
• 26:43
  provider. Why have you started selling
• 26:46
  2028? Why are you now selling a new
• 26:49
  destination? Did you know you've now got more
• 26:52
  people booking from this region and you're always that region
• 26:57
  and understanding from them what's going on?
• 26:59
  The other nice thing about a merchant of record model,
• 27:02
  especially how we sit it with the control accounts, the trust
• 27:05
  accounts, is we're holding the money and that's not holding
• 27:09
  people to ransom. But that is basically saying we
• 27:12
  need to understand because we're the ones that risk if things go
• 27:15
  wrong and we have a responsibility to your customers
• 27:18
  if things go wrong. So give us the data and we're
• 27:22
  very happy to give you your money.
• 27:24
  What's 1 sort of surprise you've had from all of your data sets?
• 27:29
  Is there a particular thing from all the data that you get?
• 27:31
  You've been like, I didn't expect to see that.
• 27:36
  I think it's probably how non standard, it's not even a word,
• 27:43
  non standard, irregular. The data can be within similar
• 27:48
  businesses and how they're approaching the market so
• 27:52
  differently. And I think that's such a common
• 27:54
  misconception in the travel underwriting space is actually,
• 27:58
  oh, we've got an airline, so they must behave like that.
• 28:01
  We've got a tour operator, so they must behave like that.
• 28:05
  They don't, you know, even if they're selling identical
• 28:07
  products, their operations tend to be very different.
• 28:10
  How they do things tend to be very different.
• 28:12
  Are they paying their suppliers by virtual card?
• 28:15
  Is that traceable? What kind of credit terms do
• 28:19
  they have with their suppliers? How are they marketing what
• 28:23
  payment types they're accepting? It's so variable and that's what
• 28:28
  makes it interesting. I remember we used some stats
• 28:30
  years ago where it was mentioned in around when people book
• 28:34
  through the travel agent face to face the lead times a lot longer
• 28:38
  than if someone wants to do it online.
• 28:40
  So that then takes it has a huge knock on impact as to who the
• 28:44
  payment fighter is. If you're taking the in store
• 28:46
  payments for their for their travel compared to someone's
• 28:48
  booking online because you might book for a flight in two weeks
• 28:50
  time. But very rarely would I go into,
• 28:52
  I don't know, Tom Tui and say, Hey, I want to go on holiday in
• 28:56
  two weeks. So the payment providers of
• 28:59
  them, different channels of of payments that has to take that
• 29:02
  into situation as well. Yeah, and it's really
• 29:04
  interesting the way that's kind of changed and COVID changed
• 29:08
  that. You'd probably say 2019 travel
• 29:12
  agents were going to die. You know, there was no need.
• 29:15
  Everyone was shifting to online OTAs, COVID.
• 29:19
  I think people wanted that reassurance.
• 29:22
  There's now talk of AI taking that back, but I think there'll
• 29:27
  be a full revolution where people will still want that
• 29:30
  reassurance of making sure that that persons.
• 29:33
  I've actually seen that hotel. I actually know what that's
• 29:35
  like. And people like experiences now
• 29:37
  it's like, why are records? Why have they had their big
• 29:39
  renaissance right? There was something nice about
• 29:42
  going with your mum and dad down to the travel shop, especially
• 29:45
  with younger kids like you go and pick 8 magazines off the
• 29:48
  they just have the shelves in the background they were.
• 29:50
  Amazing, weren't they? Yeah, you.
• 29:51
  Could sit there and you and you felt like, I mean, This is why I
• 29:53
  guess travel counsellors and companies like that still exist,
• 29:55
  right, Because they give that personal service.
• 29:58
  It was a miniature version of that travel counsellors.
• 30:00
  You felt like Dave or Cindy or whoever was was serving you and
• 30:04
  and helping you book your holiday was really invested in
• 30:07
  you and understanding your your needs inside out and you don't
• 30:10
  you obviously don't get that from a computer experience.
• 30:13
  So that personal thing is is happening in loads of different
• 30:17
  sectors and spaces, but people kind of pushing back.
• 30:20
  I think a little bit around it may be in this from a COVID
• 30:23
  thing. Everyone went inside and it's
• 30:24
  like, no, I want to go out now and I want to talk to people and
• 30:26
  I actually want to have that interactive experience.
• 30:29
  So yeah, it's an interesting. I want somewhere warm with two
• 30:31
  bedrooms, somewhere nice for the kids, somewhere in Spain, and
• 30:36
  then you go in somewhere and I said they didn't go.
• 30:38
  These are the options we've got. That's enough.
• 30:40
  But we've got young kids, both of us.
• 30:42
  The last holiday I had before we had our second with just with
• 30:45
  just with our toddler where we went with the all inclusive
• 30:48
  holiday and sensible play. Yeah, it is.
• 30:51
  But like you would because with the naps and stuff.
• 30:54
  But we needed somewhere with a nice balcony because we knew
• 30:55
  from 8:00 at night we were going to be stuck in our room.
• 30:58
  So we ended up playing lots of card games and you know, God
• 31:01
  knows what else on the the balcony to try and entertain
• 31:04
  ourselves, have enough wine for the evening without having to
• 31:07
  leave the the hotel room. But what I really wanted was,
• 31:11
  you know, like a villa within a hotel resort where the kids
• 31:13
  asleep and we've had more outside space and you didn't
• 31:16
  feel like you were just parked in your room and stuck on your
• 31:18
  balcony for the evening and you couldn't go and enjoy the music
• 31:20
  that was going on further away. Interns or whatever it might be.
• 31:24
  That's quite a niche need that we had.
• 31:26
  And it was very hard to find a hotel that had the specifics
• 31:29
  that we were looking for online, but.
• 31:31
  Do you think that's the generational thing as well?
• 31:33
  Because I think the younger generation would probably argue,
• 31:36
  well, you could have put the right questions into AI and got
• 31:39
  the answer. But I think I think there's the
• 31:41
  reassurance in actually dealing with someone that can go yeah, I
• 31:44
  know that and everything else. That's my fear with AI that but
• 31:48
  this is a payments podcast. I know.
• 31:50
  But my fear with AI is actually that the younger generation kind
• 31:53
  of trust the answer that they get out of AI and and nothing
• 31:57
  else. At least with Google you know
• 31:59
  you'll, you know, search engine you you you actually have to
• 32:03
  make a. Signal, we'll come into this and
• 32:04
  obviously Agentic is going to influence your world
• 32:07
  significantly because people will be using it to book their
• 32:10
  holidays in that way, right? So that's something you'll, as a
• 32:13
  travel platform need to prepare for, right, potentially.
• 32:16
  I'm, I'm grinning because absolutely it's, it's the buzz
• 32:20
  at the moment that Agentic is going to take over and it will
• 32:23
  certainly have its place. The one thing I'm concerned
• 32:28
  about is we can't even get payments right and risk right
• 32:31
  and chargebacks right in a non agentic place with with manual
• 32:35
  intervention where the card holders actually put the card
• 32:37
  details in. And now you're saying, oh, well,
• 32:41
  I can give my permission to an AI to go and make a booking and
• 32:45
  a payment on my behalf. I'll, you know, think about the
• 32:50
  amount of friendly fraud in in travel as it is.
• 32:53
  That really is a nightmare waiting to happen.
• 32:55
  And and that's what concerns me is and you've got to have the
• 32:59
  base level in order first. And I just don't think we have
• 33:02
  it as an industry in place at the moment either on the
• 33:05
  payments or the travel space. So yeah, it's coming.
• 33:08
  Yeah, everyone's testing it and doing bits and pieces, but.
• 33:11
  Choppy waters ahead you. Don't want to be the first.
• 33:13
  Yeah. And I don't know what it
• 33:15
  ultimately looks like from a risk perspective and who will
• 33:17
  actually support it. And that's my fear with it.
• 33:20
  How? How do you then today
• 33:21
  communicate your data and insights to the acquirers in a
• 33:25
  way that you think will help influence their decision on on
• 33:29
  your business? So from an underwriting
• 33:32
  perspective, we're quite lucky in safaris and, and I say lucky,
• 33:37
  but we've worked incredibly hard and even when we on board a new
• 33:41
  acquirer, it's about them understanding and having
• 33:44
  visibility over our on boarding and risk analysis so that they
• 33:50
  can see how we've calculated that risk.
• 33:53
  Also, you know, see whether the the customer, the travel company
• 33:59
  is going to get money before travel or whether they're going
• 34:01
  to be insured and rely on that, sorry, rely on the insurance for
• 34:06
  money before travel or whether you know, the money is sat in a
• 34:09
  trust account. They constantly audit us and we
• 34:12
  welcome that. You know, it's kind of it's not
• 34:16
  quite open book, but it is we we want them to understand what's
• 34:19
  going on because we want to build this relationship.
• 34:22
  It's a bit like we were saying before, once they've got it,
• 34:24
  then then they crave more volume.
• 34:26
  But you've got to have that balance and that that
• 34:28
  discipline. So I think it's, it comes down
• 34:31
  to a two way St. You know, we say, and we've
• 34:33
  we've recently got into, you know, aviation and what we can
• 34:36
  do there. We've had, you know, very
• 34:40
  constructive conversations with our acquiring parts to say, what
• 34:43
  do you actually want to see? What do you need from us?
• 34:45
  This is our standard level in terms of the data we're
• 34:48
  collecting aviation at the moment, we're only working on a
• 34:51
  wheels up basis. But what do you want to see?
• 34:55
  And, and we'll get it to give you comfort.
• 34:58
  You know, we, we believe we're giving you a level of comfort
• 35:00
  already, but you know, you've also got your own internal tick
• 35:04
  boxes to meet. Acquirers have to embrace stuff
• 35:07
  that de risks themselves and they're not even having to build
• 35:10
  it themselves, right? Like that's the the key benefit
• 35:12
  that you're up. So then we'll go and build this
• 35:14
  for you. We've got the team that can go
• 35:16
  and do it and do it quickly. Just tell us how you want to see
• 35:19
  it, in what format and how often we have to send it to you,
• 35:21
  right? Yeah, I, I think the first 100%
• 35:24
  agree. I think the frustration is
• 35:27
  they've also got their own internal battles between someone
• 35:30
  like ourselves and their own direct sales team.
• 35:33
  And you know, direct sales is probably selling at a cheaper
• 35:36
  price, probably pushing the risk team harder to get across the
• 35:40
  board with no reserves, no collateral, whatever it may be.
• 35:45
  How does that sit when the acquiring bank because it's
• 35:47
  greater risk for less reward as as I perceive it.
• 35:53
  But I think there's got to be a balance on that.
• 35:55
  And I what we're trying to encourage our partners to do is
• 35:58
  actually look at this a bit more holistically and say, well,
• 36:01
  we'll take a bit of risk ourselves, but we'll also, we'll
• 36:04
  give a little bit of risk, you know, to repaid or we'll, we'll
• 36:07
  take some insurance, whatever it may be.
• 36:10
  So that our book, especially from a travel perspective is
• 36:13
  nicely balanced. So we can take the higher risk,
• 36:16
  higher reward, but also we're offsetting that with the lower
• 36:19
  risk, lower reward. And then does that it's a really
• 36:21
  good point. I mean, obviously work in the,
• 36:23
  the embedded payment space where we don't really deal with with
• 36:25
  and merchants in, in my team. But, and I kind of feel like I'm
• 36:30
  quite vocal about that being not from an enterprise point of
• 36:33
  viewing enterprise always there's going to be that one to
• 36:35
  one relationship, certainly with large customers.
• 36:37
  But you know, platforms like yours now exist in almost every
• 36:43
  part of the the ecosystem globally in, in retail and
• 36:46
  travel in whatever it might be that kind of 1 to many
• 36:49
  acquisition that, that my team would would have and I would
• 36:52
  have a focus on, you know, we sign a trust my group and we get
• 36:55
  1000 customers or 2000 customers or 10,000 customers, right.
• 36:59
  But you guys obviously want the big fish as well, right.
• 37:01
  So there is a little bit of like how do you look at that from a
• 37:04
  portfolio point of view? Is it the the one to money
• 37:06
  strategy or do you have a bit of a bit of both in the?
• 37:09
  A bit of both and it comes down to risk and opportunity.
• 37:13
  Again, we also don't want to be seen as just supporting the big
• 37:18
  guys. You know, we, we, that might
• 37:20
  sound a little bit idealistic, but you know, I started out in
• 37:24
  travel. I started out with a travel
• 37:25
  company. We can through the platform very
• 37:28
  easily on board smaller customers, get them live, get
• 37:32
  them processing and hopefully they grow, Hopefully they evolve
• 37:35
  with us and. They're the ones who are.
• 37:37
  Quite often the risk versus reward doesn't stack up for an
• 37:39
  acquirer. Right, exactly, exactly right.
• 37:42
  They tend to be, albeit they tend to communicate a lot more
• 37:46
  with us. They do tend to be a much
• 37:49
  shorter bleed in sales time. You know, the big fish takes
• 37:52
  quite a lot longer to to actually get across the line.
• 37:56
  When they do, yeah, you win big. But when it goes, that can
• 38:00
  really damage your business. So like everything and that I
• 38:04
  don't myself sound self-righteous, but you know,
• 38:07
  you've got to have that that balance book.
• 38:09
  And that's how we look at it. And we're trying to support as
• 38:12
  many people as we can, acknowledging that the merchant
• 38:15
  of record model isn't right for every business.
• 38:18
  And we get plenty of applications where we go.
• 38:20
  No, we'll actually introduce you direct to the acquirer because
• 38:23
  that is a better fit for you. You know, we're not the cheapest
• 38:26
  because we build in, you know, all the insurance, all the
• 38:29
  things that we do. So if you're working in a single
• 38:33
  market and located in that market, we're probably not
• 38:37
  adding a lot of value to you if you're.
• 38:39
  Giving stuff back to the acquirer, Same way they're
• 38:41
  giving you stuff. But if you're doing a lot of
• 38:42
  cross-border, if you're higher risk, absolutely we can add
• 38:45
  value to to what you're doing. Where do you see the biggest
• 38:48
  risk risk for requires over the next kind of three to five
• 38:51
  years? I think AI is a risk to them
• 38:57
  because I think there will be a big push and big pressure to to
• 39:01
  get on board with this agentic commerce to try and make a name
• 39:06
  for themselves in that they don't want to be left behind.
• 39:09
  There are a lot of big name players that will do that and I
• 39:12
  think they haven't got their own house in order as what I was
• 39:17
  saying before, to actually then take it to the next level.
• 39:20
  You've got to be sure in how you're operating to be able to
• 39:23
  cover that risk. And I think vamps are really
• 39:26
  good example of where people have not got their house in
• 39:30
  order. I'd question whether these are
• 39:33
  even got the house in order. I mean that that is a case of
• 39:36
  where I would like to have seen data standards haven't been set
• 39:40
  before all came in because you can talk plenty of requires and
• 39:45
  they might say they know what's going on.
• 39:46
  They haven't got a clue what's within their own portfolio.
• 39:49
  Something out on time and payments though without like,
• 39:51
  oh, we're delaying that by another six months.
• 39:53
  We're not quite ready. We're going to give you another
• 39:54
  nine months to get ready for that change.
• 39:57
  I won't hold my breath for that day, but yeah, that's the dream,
• 40:00
  isn't it? That it all seamlessly fits
• 40:02
  together and works. I've forgotten the original
• 40:07
  question if I'm honest. No, I think it's a risk to
• 40:10
  acquirers, right. What's going to be the risk to
• 40:12
  them? I think you're not.
• 40:12
  You actually nailed it. And it's it's difficult in the
• 40:15
  travel world for acquires because you don't know what you
• 40:17
  don't know, right. And we can be talking about AI
• 40:19
  dented commerce, but also what we can't foresee there could be
• 40:22
  another issue in the world over the next three to five years and
• 40:25
  also in travel shuts down is. Is there a payment trend for you
• 40:31
  guys as well? And maybe I'm going to give you
• 40:34
  one that I think could be an interesting one for your space.
• 40:36
  Open banking obviously was seen as in some ways very high risk
• 40:41
  in travel, but actually in terms of speed of payment, in terms of
• 40:45
  cost of payment, if they overarch some of your
• 40:47
  protections. Is, is open banking something
• 40:49
  you guys have delved into or is that an over hype for you as
• 40:52
  well? We've looked at it.
• 40:54
  I mean, look, the the interesting scenario is could we
• 40:59
  provide some kind of insurance that essentially reply or puts a
• 41:03
  similar chargeback protection on the open banking because that's
• 41:07
  why people buy high value products like travel through a
• 41:11
  credit card because they get the chargeback protection and open
• 41:15
  banking doesn't offer that, which I think is a challenge.
• 41:18
  I also the bottom line is I don't think it's taken off
• 41:22
  because there is enough value to the providers in it.
• 41:25
  Because Ryanair rolled it out, right?
• 41:27
  They did a big song and dance. And I'm sure you mean it was
• 41:29
  purely a cost point for them knowing Ryanair.
• 41:32
  But I don't know what the adoption rate is.
• 41:33
  I don't I haven't seen those stats.
• 41:35
  I would I would suggest that most people still book through
• 41:39
  card payment and anyone that listens to this watches this can
• 41:43
  comment and say you're completely wrong.
• 41:45
  But I would say most of that is still card payment.
• 41:48
  I'd say the ease of car payment is still much better.
• 41:52
  I'd say the protection is a big thing in the travel space,
• 41:55
  especially if you're not booking through a travel, a travel agent
• 41:58
  or where you've got that financial protection, so.
• 42:02
  Is that a company versus conversion rate, right.
• 42:04
  So there'll be less adoption rate for open banking, but I'd
• 42:07
  be certain. So the conversion rate of
• 42:09
  someone when they do select open banking will probably better
• 42:13
  than someone selecting the card payment.
• 42:16
  I'm always thinking your globalization, you guys
• 42:18
  obviously in various different parts of the world and there's
• 42:20
  certain parts of the world you operate in where A to a payments
• 42:22
  are more prevalent than card. That's how you're.
• 42:24
  Handling, yeah. So we we are looking at that.
• 42:27
  That's something that we're expanding out now and a reason
• 42:32
  why we've we've added sort of, you know, different companies
• 42:38
  around the world. So I was trying to think what I
• 42:40
  was saying there exactly for that, because you you need to
• 42:43
  take that account to account. I look at accounts to accounts
• 42:47
  slightly different to open banking in an already sort of
• 42:52
  card dependent market like the UK.
• 42:54
  So account to account if you go South East Asia cards are not,
• 42:59
  you know, the prevalent payment sort of provision there.
• 43:02
  I'm not sure. And again, this is only
• 43:04
  anecdotally, I'm not sure they have the same concern about the
• 43:10
  charge back protection as we do over here.
• 43:12
  You know, if you take the US chargeback protection is the
• 43:16
  most important thing. The issuers talk it.
• 43:19
  The other big thing during COVID was the amount of issuers that
• 43:22
  were actually encouraging chargebacks and we still see it
• 43:25
  now on that. And that's a real kind of
• 43:29
  challenge. So account to account in those
• 43:31
  regions I think is important, is certainly important to us in
• 43:34
  terms of growth open banking. I just, I'm struggling to see
• 43:42
  the the major adoption and these high ticket inner space like
• 43:45
  travel. Just that's why I'm struggling
• 43:48
  with it. There's not enough money in it.
• 43:52
  Yeah, no, it's interesting. And I think your point around
• 43:55
  chargebacks being a kind of go to, I think the the one that
• 43:58
  springs to mind for me was able and cold the furniture company
• 44:01
  when they went into ministration a few years ago.
• 44:03
  They're obviously still on the High Street now, but I remember
• 44:05
  going on to their website because my mum had bought a sofa
• 44:08
  from them and she had to end up going and collecting it from a
• 44:11
  warehouse in Manchester. They basically, if it's being
• 44:13
  shipped and you can get hold of the warehouse company, that's on
• 44:16
  you hire the Transit van. And when you pick this thing up,
• 44:18
  right. But on the middle of that
• 44:20
  website, it literally said we are an administration.
• 44:23
  These are our administrators. If you're having issues with
• 44:25
  your order, we recommend you contact your your bank to raise
• 44:29
  a charge, basically to raise a charge back.
• 44:31
  They're pretty much saying that on their website.
• 44:32
  I see. And This is why the travel
• 44:35
  sector, the furniture sector, right?
• 44:36
  They get tarnished with that brush of your high risk, yes,
• 44:40
  your high reward as well. But if it does all go wrong,
• 44:44
  stuff like that's not going to help, like that relationship
• 44:47
  with the risk teams that acquires in the long term.
• 44:49
  But that's the other chance in the travel space when there's an
• 44:52
  atoll failure, you go to the atoll website.
• 44:55
  Again, to your point, the the first thing that they say is if
• 44:58
  you have paid by credit card, contact your card company and
• 45:02
  and begin a section 75 or a chargeback.
• 45:05
  And we're going well, no, hold on, because this travel company
• 45:09
  as part of their atoll should have had to put some financial
• 45:11
  protection up. They've got the money.
• 45:13
  They've, they've either got the money or they've got a bond or
• 45:15
  they've got insurance or whatever it may be.
• 45:17
  Let's make sure that everyone knows where the protection lies
• 45:21
  and there's that full coverage. And it shouldn't just fall back
• 45:24
  on the acquirer because acquirers just go, well, I don't
• 45:27
  want to do, I don't want to deal with this.
• 45:28
  I don't want to take an atoll holder.
• 45:31
  There has to be this better transparency about that risk,
• 45:35
  but also who's covering that risk and in the event the
• 45:37
  failure almost like a drop down of where that risk is being
• 45:41
  borne. And I think that's crucial as
• 45:44
  we, as we move forwards. Yeah.
• 45:48
  Very good. And again on the furniture side,
• 45:50
  we worked for an Enquirer a few years ago and we did have a loss
• 45:53
  in the furniture sector and we didn't board a furniture company
• 45:56
  for about two years after. That loss changed the whole risk
• 45:58
  profile of the nervous. Absolutely.
• 46:00
  Yeah, it's understandable. Perfect.
• 46:04
  So coming to the end of the show, Will what would you like
• 46:08
  to bring to the shelf? For shame.
• 46:10
  What gives you the ick in this world of payments?
• 46:12
  I'm going big, I'm going chargebacks as a as a concept
• 46:16
  right now. Something created in the 1970s
• 46:20
  hasn't really changed. And again, travel, where there's
• 46:24
  a lot of friendly fraud, there is a complete imbalance and it's
• 46:28
  not fit for purpose. OK.
• 46:30
  I'm going to unpack that one before I put it on the shelf.
• 46:33
  The reason being we've obviously just talked about the US for
• 46:36
  example, where chargeback is the biggest consumer upsell, right?
• 46:41
  So I get it's really legacy and I've had a very well publicized
• 46:44
  chargeback challenge in the last couple of years with with a drop
• 46:47
  shipping item that I purchased, right, dealing with, you know,
• 46:50
  issuing a scheme on that side of things.
• 46:51
  So I do agree there's a lot of frustration around chargebacks
• 46:54
  in the processes and the reality of can you actually win that
• 46:57
  chargeback dispute if you go down the road, how long does it
• 46:59
  take? But what's going to replace the
• 47:02
  chargeback if we're getting rid of it?
• 47:05
  I think the chargebacks in terms of what it was originally
• 47:09
  created for the the consumer protection piece probably holds
• 47:14
  true. But there needs to be a balance
• 47:17
  and there needs to be clearer messaging and a clearer process
• 47:22
  to how it actually functions. Because you know, a consumer
• 47:27
  gets 540 up to 540 days to contest a charge back for for
• 47:31
  non delivery and a merchant gets 14 days to represent.
• 47:35
  And I just see it as a, you know, I, I personally take it on
• 47:39
  sometimes when I'm, when I'm given some of these.
• 47:42
  And I'm quite upset by the level of arrogance of some of these
• 47:48
  card holders that they would dare contest the fact that
• 47:51
  they've signed in for a tour. There are photos of them on a
• 47:54
  tour and you kind of go, yeah, all over social.
• 47:57
  Media. You are literally the, the best
• 47:59
  one we ever had was someone had booked a helicopter ride over
• 48:04
  Sugarloaf Mountain in Brazil. And so charge back here you go
• 48:11
  represent. You've signed in for this tour.
• 48:14
  Oh, no, that wasn't me. Someone the merchant has has
• 48:17
  signed, has forged this kind of signature.
• 48:20
  So the guy, the guys that we work with over there literally
• 48:23
  trolled through Facebook and everything.
• 48:26
  And lo and behold, there's this guy taking photos in his
• 48:29
  helicopter over Sugarloaf Mountain, Sugarloaf Mountain.
• 48:32
  And we won that. But it shouldn't have had to go
• 48:35
  that far. It shouldn't have had to be that
• 48:37
  frustrating where it's basically a con.
• 48:40
  And, you know, you hear all the stats.
• 48:42
  It goes from 60 to 85% of friendly fraud in travel.
• 48:47
  There has to be a clearer way. You can still call it
• 48:49
  chargeback, the mechanism that still actually operates it, you
• 48:55
  know, don't recognize this charge.
• 48:57
  Fair enough, I'm sure about this.
• 48:59
  Fair enough, didn't get what I paid for, fair enough.
• 49:02
  But if it's non refundable you should have read the terms.
• 49:06
  It's the biggest issue, the waiting then in the favor of the
• 49:09
  customer. Yes and also if it's gonna be
• 49:13
  weighted that way, let's call a spade a spade just so you're
• 49:16
  never gonna win a chargeback in this space cuz I think travel
• 49:20
  space success rate is something like 25% typically on some of
• 49:24
  that I. Raised one charge back in
• 49:26
  travel. It's where I booked a five star
• 49:29
  hotel and it was not a five star hotel, so it wasn't as as
• 49:33
  advertised. But then and I agree with that,
• 49:37
  but then did you stay in the four-star and should there be
• 49:39
  have been some adjustments? Because I had to complain about
• 49:42
  it, said this is not what I was shown, but the rooms were
• 49:45
  different like that. The the pictures were not what
• 49:48
  we what, what we'd had. That it took me months, months
• 49:53
  and months and months and months.
• 49:54
  Took me 9 months on my COVID one with KLM.
• 49:57
  I mean, yeah, they all they had to do was say if This Is Us
• 50:00
  countering, I guess all they had to do was say we're in the
• 50:03
  process of sorting a refund because it was COVID.
• 50:05
  They're like, well, we've got 10s of thousands of these
• 50:08
  flights to get through, right? So they could probably buy
• 50:10
  themselves time. But I got my chargeback reversed
• 50:13
  and then say months later, they finally refunded me.
• 50:16
  But because they just said we're working on it, I had to wait
• 50:19
  months to get my, my money back and been abandoned by them in
• 50:22
  South Africa. So it kind of goes both ways.
• 50:25
  I think I, I, I've probably only won one charge back out there.
• 50:29
  Me too, I I think when it comes back to shelf for shame.
• 50:31
  I think the charge back process needs to be looked at.
• 50:36
  So you go let it on. Yeah, I'm for it.
• 50:39
  I am for it because it's helped me as a consumer.
• 50:41
  It's. 2025 we can't do something that's crazy in 1973 in the form
• 50:47
  it was so the actual process needs to we.
• 50:49
  Can't give a consumer 540 days and give a merchant 14 days.
• 50:52
  To do that and 100% agree that any in some way shape or form it
• 50:55
  needs to go on there and it needs to be changed.
• 50:58
  But again, do you know open banking?
• 51:00
  Open banking to sort kind of if. You don't have any chargebacks
• 51:03
  then the arguing that goes but. Then you don't get a protection.
• 51:06
  Yeah, you got to take the adoption.
• 51:09
  So, so legacy chargebacks process legacy charge goes on
• 51:12
  the shelter show, right? I'd appreciate perfect.
• 51:14
  Well, thanks so much for joining us today.
• 51:16
  If people want to find out more about trust my group, get in
• 51:19
  touch with you. Where do they go?
• 51:21
  So go to the website, trust my dot group, there's links to both
• 51:25
  businesses within their. I'm all over LinkedIn.
• 51:28
  I'm quite opinionated. So come and find me there.
• 51:31
  Come and have a chat. We're always interested to talk
• 51:33
  to people. Even if we can't help, you know,
• 51:36
  we don't believe in square pegs, round holes.
• 51:38
  We want to find the right solution for you.
• 51:40
  If that's not us, we'll point you to people that we know in
• 51:42
  the industry that can help you. Amazing.
• 51:44
  Thanks a lot for your time. Thanks guys.
• 51:45
  That's great.