Latest / Technically Sound Strategy / Episode 46 - Legal Intake Optimization With Kerri Coby White

Transcript

Episode 46 - Legal Intake Optimization With Kerri Coby White · Technically Sound Strategy

• 0:01
  Welcome to Legal Marketing Radio, a production of LaFleur Marketing.
• 0:04
  This week I'm joined by Kerri Coby White, CEO of Kerri James, and author
• 0:08
  of The Law Firm Growth Machine.
• 0:11
  Kerri has spent more than a decade helping law firms transform their intake, business
• 0:15
  development and growth strategies through the smart use of data and technology.
• 0:20
  In this episode, we dive into legal intake optimization, what it really
• 0:24
  means, why it matters, and how firms can build strategy driven systems.
• 0:28
  That convert more leads, improve client experiences and fuel sustainable growth.
• 0:33
  Kerri shares how the right combination of process, people and technology can turn
• 0:38
  intake into a true competitive advantage.
• 0:41
  As a starting point.
• 0:42
  Tell me your background.
• 0:43
  Tell me where you came from and how you landed to this.
• 0:45
  And I know you had spent some time teaching,
• 0:47
  yeah, so I, I think that's actually I, this line is getting
• 0:50
  old at this point, but I was, I spent most of my teaching career.
• 0:54
  I'm.
• 0:55
  Trained to be an educator.
• 0:56
  I went to NYU and worked with some phenomenal researchers in education.
• 1:02
  So I really wanted to go that route, but thought, oh, I better get some classroom
• 1:05
  education of my experience under my belt.
• 1:08
  So I took a job.
• 1:09
  I worked primarily in fifth and sixth grade, which in this district was
• 1:14
  middle school in a gifted program.
• 1:16
  And so people would always say, how do you go from teaching middle school?
• 1:20
  English in a gifted program to working with attorneys, and I'm like a bunch of
• 1:25
  punks who think they know everything.
• 1:28
  I'm pretty familiar with the type which is, you know, not is, is not all
• 1:33
  that snarky because really, attorneys.
• 1:36
  Have a lifetime history of success.
• 1:40
  People who are very intelligent, very driven, very disciplined,
• 1:44
  often go on to become attorneys.
• 1:46
  And so they do know so much that I think at times they're a little
• 1:51
  befuddled by the world of marketing and particular because it's outside
• 1:54
  of their expertise and they're used to being really good at everything.
• 1:59
  And marketing is a moving target.
• 2:01
  It's definitely.
• 2:02
  Challenging in unique ways, and it's very numbers driven, which is also contrary to
• 2:07
  where most lawyers find their strengths.
• 2:09
  I'm used to being the rare woman in the room working with these very smart people.
• 2:16
  That makes a lot of sense.
• 2:17
  It's interesting, like our first three employees were writers also,
• 2:21
  so I think that the command of the English language is advantageous
• 2:24
  from a marketing perspective anyways.
• 2:26
  Absolutely.
• 2:27
  Yeah.
• 2:27
  And I think it gives you the tools to tell the stories.
• 2:31
  Well, I think we're, again the way AI is changing everything.
• 2:37
  Makes this moment in time just fascinating as an observer and a participant.
• 2:41
  I do wonder where we go from here because I think we spent so much of the last
• 2:47
  several decades focused on, writing.
• 2:49
  And writing is really feeling quite obsolete in the AI era.
• 2:54
  And yet the need to know how to write I think is going to be
• 2:58
  more important than ever because.
• 3:02
  I certainly use chat, GPT, perplexity, Gemini, whatever your AI of choice is.
• 3:09
  I use these tools and yet I feel like they're not crutches to my writing.
• 3:14
  They're amplifiers, and I'm very proud that the book I wrote.
• 3:18
  Literally was finished just a few months shy of chat GPT coming out
• 3:23
  because it really does feel like such an accomplishment to have
• 3:25
  done that before that existed.
• 3:27
  Yeah, because I do feel like, everybody's a writer now.
• 3:29
  Yeah.
• 3:30
  Everybody thinks they're a writer now, and yet the education.
• 3:34
  I've had I, having been an English teacher in particular, the ability
• 3:38
  to tell a story to craft something compelling is really important.
• 3:42
  And I think today we're seeing the outputs from chat, GPT or any other GPT
• 3:49
  getting us to places so much faster.
• 3:51
  But it really does require a different level of critical
• 3:54
  thinking and analysis and mm-hmm.
• 3:56
  And wisdom.
• 3:57
  I mean, I really wanna call it wisdom 'cause I just feel like unless you
• 4:00
  have experience with all these things that you're supposedly writing about,
• 4:03
  it's really hard to add a depth of character, even like an actual character.
• 4:08
  Yeah.
• 4:09
  So it becomes very interesting.
• 4:10
  I think it's I think humanity's gonna be sorely missed if we
• 4:14
  abandon everything for ai.
• 4:17
  I think so too.
• 4:18
  I often refer to AI as like our friendly, helpful psychopath.
• 4:22
  Yeah.
• 4:22
  Because it has no empathy, but it sure is good at faking it.
• 4:26
  Oh, it is.
• 4:27
  Yeah.
• 4:28
  Yeah.
• 4:28
  My mother freaks out about all of this a little too much and I keep telling her,
• 4:32
  these are the robots we were promised mom.
• 4:34
  They're here to help.
• 4:35
  But we have to be their overlords.
• 4:37
  And I tell everyone on the team that there is nothing in our AI
• 4:41
  ecosystem in my organization that doesn't have human oversight.
• 4:45
  Yeah.
• 4:45
  Nothing that is automatically published or pushed without
• 4:49
  somebody looking at it first.
• 4:51
  So I think we do have to be.
• 4:54
  Really very critical thinkers, again, because we're getting just volumes
• 4:58
  and volumes of whatever it is, content outputs, media that now we have to consume
• 5:04
  and look at with that critical eye.
• 5:06
  All these jobs that people are worried about are, we're going away.
• 5:09
  I don't think they're going away, but I do think they're changing.
• 5:12
  They're changing, and we are becoming, the teacher with the red
• 5:14
  pen instead of the teacher teaching.
• 5:18
  And interestingly in my.
• 5:19
  Career as an English teacher a million years ago one of the things I always
• 5:23
  noticed was people were great at editing.
• 5:26
  Not great, but some were, most people aren't great at it, but we could edit.
• 5:30
  We could say, oh, this needs a capital, this needs a period, but
• 5:32
  people are terrible at revising, which is how we organize thoughts.
• 5:36
  And so I, I think.
• 5:38
  I think what we are going to need people doing more and more is being
• 5:41
  very critical of outputs from AI in particular, and using their higher
• 5:46
  level thinking and analysis to create something that , is superior.
• 5:51
  Yeah.
• 5:51
  And that, so it is a human AI partnership.
• 5:54
  At least in my office.
• 5:55
  It is.
• 5:56
  Well, I think it has to be.
• 5:58
  I think you touched on something so important there.
• 5:59
  And we're in the same boat.
• 6:00
  We still employ writers and editors.
• 6:03
  Mm-hmm.
• 6:03
  And their job has changed a little bit, you know, that first draft oftentimes.
• 6:06
  But if you don't, then you're handing over basically a blank slate
• 6:11
  and you can't tell the difference between what's good and what's bad.
• 6:15
  A lot of the attorneys that I'm sure you work with, like if they get something
• 6:18
  for their website or if they get some content, they're not taking the time
• 6:22
  to determine if it's good or bad.
• 6:23
  Right.
• 6:24
  And so your subject matter experts need to do that.
• 6:27
  Absolutely.
• 6:27
  And I think that.
• 6:29
  Everyone thinks they're suddenly an expert because of ai.
• 6:31
  And unless you actually have the true knowledge.
• 6:34
  Yeah.
• 6:34
  You don't know what you don't know.
• 6:35
  Yeah.
• 6:36
  So you can't even recognize how shallow something is.
• 6:39
  And so I look at it I've been saying this now for a couple years.
• 6:43
  I feel like I have the smartest person in the room sitting across.
• 6:47
  My office on the couch over there.
• 6:49
  Yeah.
• 6:50
  But it's my job to ask the right questions and to extract
• 6:54
  deeper insight and to push it.
• 6:56
  The biggest challenge I see with that, of course, is the, like you said in
• 7:00
  your fre, your friendly psychopath.
• 7:02
  They are all too skilled at.
• 7:06
  People pleasing.
• 7:07
  Yeah.
• 7:07
  They wanna give you what you want, which is really frustrating to me.
• 7:12
  I, I wanna be proven wrong.
• 7:13
  I wanna test my own thinking, and I find that I'm not gonna get that out of ai.
• 7:21
  Yeah.
• 7:21
  I feel like AI is going to produce a generation of like Dunning Kruger mm-hmm.
• 7:27
  Outputs that completely unlike anything we've ever seen before.
• 7:31
  And, and I've had it happen to myself, you know, I'm not a developer, but
• 7:34
  all of a sudden I'm building stuff.
• 7:37
  I just wanna make this thing work and it co and I code it and it works.
• 7:39
  I'm like, maybe I am a developer.
• 7:41
  I know it's crazy.
• 7:42
  And
• 7:42
  I need to remind myself like I'm not, and this is not prime
• 7:46
  time, this is not ready to go.
• 7:47
  I can build a prototype, that's fine, but like this can't, this is not market ready.
• 7:51
  Right.
• 7:51
  And it's really easy to lose sight of that.
• 7:54
  Yeah, because it's right there.
• 7:55
  It is.
• 7:56
  And I and that's where wisdom comes in, I think, is until you have amassed,
• 8:00
  decades of knowledge, you're not even gonna see that the, the internet did this.
• 8:04
  So if you think back maybe not as intensely as AI even, but I'm a
• 8:09
  creative person decorative person.
• 8:11
  I like creating things and.
• 8:14
  As a teacher, as a homemaker, as a cook, I was so good at all this
• 8:18
  stuff, and then the internet came along and suddenly everybody was
• 8:22
  pinteresting and Right, right.
• 8:23
  You know, they were just copying all these other ideas and it really
• 8:26
  took a little wind outta my sails that, this something that I thought
• 8:29
  made me special was completely.
• 8:32
  Hijacked by the rest of the world who could just copycat.
• 8:36
  And I do think that it's making all of us a little flatter because there,
• 8:41
  if we all have this very surface level, quote unquote expertise, it
• 8:47
  makes us a mile wide and an inch deep.
• 8:49
  And I. I love, like I when I first started getting into marketing, which,
• 8:54
  you know, this is like 20 years ago now I was a really well-trained teacher.
• 8:59
  I, I worked with some amazing professional educators in, in a research university.
• 9:05
  So I felt like I, I could talk education till the cows came home and I remember.
• 9:10
  When I first, made a huge career shift, I missed, I deeply missed
• 9:15
  feeling, deeply knowledgeable.
• 9:17
  Yeah.
• 9:18
  And it took me another 10 years before I felt like I could talk
• 9:22
  about this stuff in my sleep.
• 9:23
  And even just having this conversation now it's been on my calendar all
• 9:27
  week for us to sit and talk and like I don't have to prepare Yeah.
• 9:31
  For this conversation.
• 9:32
  Whereas if all I had done was a quick Google search on treating.
• 9:36
  Uh, you know, I don't know treating ms. I couldn't go on a podcast and have a
• 9:41
  chat with a fellow expert and feel like it was an intelligent conversation,
• 9:46
  and yet that's kind of what, what conversation is happening across
• 9:50
  tables and at bars around the country.
• 9:52
  Everybody's an expert.
• 9:53
  Yeah.
• 9:53
  All of a sudden.
• 9:54
  So tell me what you're doing.
• 9:55
  Tell me what you're doing to kind of bring together some of those pieces.
• 9:58
  I know, yeah.
• 9:59
  Some of the things that we've talked about.
• 10:00
  Your intake system I think is awesome.
• 10:03
  Right?
• 10:03
  Thank you.
• 10:03
  The automation that you built is incredible.
• 10:05
  It pulls together a lot of disparate tools and it really makes the client feel like
• 10:10
  they're at the center of the universe,
• 10:12
  you say the center.
• 10:13
  Which is interesting because I think what I did was very linear for a long
• 10:18
  time, and yet somehow it came right back to where I began which is education.
• 10:22
  I just teach taller people with better budgets.
• 10:26
  What I switched gears into marketing after my third child was born
• 10:30
  and I just needed to slow down.
• 10:32
  I took a part-time job and was mostly home with my kids
• 10:36
  while working a part-time job.
• 10:37
  But in that time, I met a lot of attorneys through this board that
• 10:42
  I was working with, and everybody was asking me if I did X, Y, and Z.
• 10:46
  And so I literally got a $10 business license and started freelancing.
• 10:51
  And really had to educate myself.
• 10:53
  And I did.
• 10:54
  And I think that's one of the most amazing things of our era
• 10:56
  is, for 59 bucks in an internet connection, you can learn so much.
• 11:01
  And so I am completely self-taught on the marketing side and had the gift of
• 11:06
  great mentors and learned a whole lot.
• 11:09
  And I was feeling super confident when I landed this whale of a law firm
• 11:13
  to manage their digital marketing.
• 11:15
  And I remember walking into this one meeting like just with a skip in my step.
• 11:21
  The numbers were fantastic and the impressions were.
• 11:24
  Great.
• 11:24
  And the clicks were awesome and I walked into some very unhappy faces and
• 11:31
  I was floor, they weren't tho, those vanity metrics meant nothing to them.
• 11:36
  And I started repeating, clicks aren't clients.
• 11:40
  Cliques aren't clients, clicks aren't clients.
• 11:43
  But I had to move to the next stage of the engagement, which was intake.
• 11:48
  And I tease.
• 11:49
  I think my kids were, my youngest was like seven at the time, and I
• 11:53
  probably would've loved a fourth child, but I made intake my baby instead.
• 11:57
  And I started like breathing, living every second of my day, obsessed with intake.
• 12:04
  What happened to this lead and how long was this sitting here?
• 12:06
  When did this phone call go out and what's the follow up?
• 12:08
  I just realized like, wow, if I want to be recognized for being
• 12:12
  effective in marketing, I'm gonna have to get good at intake.
• 12:15
  And man, did I get good at intake to the point where I started talking to,
• 12:20
  when people would ask me what I did, I would tell them I make marketing teams
• 12:23
  look good, because the system I built for intake became so effective that I
• 12:29
  did just start launching it for other companies through marketing firms.
• 12:33
  And that system ensured that no lead was left behind.
• 12:38
  And had I known that Lead docket was so stinking new at the time, I probably
• 12:44
  would've gone more aggressively out there.
• 12:46
  But I didn't realize how new Lead Docket was.
• 12:49
  I think this is like 2018.
• 12:52
  And they were fairly new and.
• 12:55
  I got so intimidated.
• 12:56
  I just, went back to my little corner and figured I'd just keep this tool as my
• 13:00
  consulting as the hub of my consulting.
• 13:03
  Yeah.
• 13:03
  And I started working with law firms who weren't talking enough about intake.
• 13:08
  And here's the catch with that intake isn't sexy.
• 13:10
  People don't love talking about intake.
• 13:12
  They get excited about new marketing campaigns and making the phone ring, and
• 13:15
  they don't wanna really focus on intake.
• 13:17
  So I still had to talk about marketing and come at this through the lens of
• 13:22
  you could certainly do this, and this.
• 13:23
  But I would never do any of that till we.
• 13:27
  Mind the gap.
• 13:28
  We, we need to plug the holes and make sure that we are not
• 13:31
  adding more chaos on top of chaos.
• 13:34
  And when people start to see what meat they're leaving on the
• 13:38
  bone, they become keenly aware of of the importance of intake.
• 13:44
  And we built this system, which absolutely transformed intake for the clients that I
• 13:49
  was working with in a very intimate level.
• 13:51
  And then it again, it followed this linear path where now I'm in this
• 13:54
  system and suddenly I'm getting such unbelievable data that now I'm like, holy
• 14:00
  crap, we can make way better marketing decisions now that we can see all this.
• 14:04
  Yeah.
• 14:04
  And so I went from marketing to intake to being completely obsessed with data.
• 14:09
  And this is this now is like 2020.
• 14:13
  One, which is the summer that the 2020 Olympics were played because of COVID,
• 14:19
  and I was looking at the number of record break, record breakers, Olympic record
• 14:26
  breakers, world record breakers that summer and was just going, holy crap.
• 14:31
  This is data.
• 14:32
  There's not one.
• 14:34
  One measurement on these Olympians bodies that isn't tabulated and calculated.
• 14:41
  Yeah.
• 14:41
  And if you want to be an Olympic level record breaking law firm, you're
• 14:47
  going to have to look at your data.
• 14:49
  And so I started wrangling the data and getting obsessed with that.
• 14:52
  And when you wrangle the data.
• 14:55
  Get obsessed with the numbers.
• 14:57
  You can grow your law firm, and I just worked relentlessly to improve ROI by.
• 15:04
  Like they always say follow the numbers.
• 15:05
  Yes.
• 15:06
  And so I came right back to marketing in that way.
• 15:09
  But as, as far as the marketing piece in particular goes, talking
• 15:13
  about telling good stories like I said, self-taught, great mentors.
• 15:17
  Primarily online training for my marketing career.
• 15:20
  But I've always said what made me a great marketer was being a great consumer.
• 15:25
  And so I come at everything from the client perspective, and I think
• 15:31
  that is actually a more feminine trait that I bring that I, I think
• 15:35
  women are innately more maybe not even innately, but like socially.
• 15:40
  Program to think of others.
• 15:42
  And I think a lot of my approach has been about putting the client who is coming
• 15:49
  to the law firm typically not typically, but almost always, with the exception
• 15:52
  of having a winning lottery ticket.
• 15:54
  You're calling a law firm 'cause you're having a bad day.
• 15:57
  Yeah.
• 15:57
  And if you meet the needs of that client, very empathetically and solutions oriented
• 16:04
  and relationship focused, I think you can profoundly shift that person's mm-hmm.
• 16:10
  Day, let alone the outcome of this entire event.
• 16:13
  And as a consumer, I took that I took what I need as a consumer and shifted
• 16:17
  that into marketing and I think it makes a huge difference for for the
• 16:21
  relationship building side, which they then makes sure that this isn't
• 16:25
  a client transaction, but a lifetime client, which is a big difference.
• 16:31
  Yep.
• 16:32
  Yeah.
• 16:32
  For us, that takes the shape of human-centered design, right?
• 16:34
  That , pulling in that empathy and really focusing and building your own
• 16:40
  sense of empathy, which it sounds like is something that you've done a ton of.
• 16:44
  You have to put yourself in someone else's shoes to be effective as a marketer.
• 16:48
  And I love hearing what you're doing in that space, because I think that
• 16:51
  one, that makes us better human beings.
• 16:54
  Absolutely.
• 16:54
  And it also
• 16:54
  makes us better marketers.
• 16:56
  Yeah.
• 16:57
  Well, and I don't want empathy to be this thing we do.
• 16:59
  Like I tell my teams put on your human hat for a second.
• 17:03
  And I've reflected on this.
• 17:05
  Specific call more times than you can count.
• 17:08
  I was reviewing phone calls, in my obsession with intake.
• 17:12
  And I heard someone call the office and say I need to speak with a lawyer.
• 17:17
  And they said, have, you know something like, have you been injured?
• 17:20
  Are you in an accident?
• 17:21
  And the person said, my son was killed in a car accident.
• 17:24
  And the response of the receptionist was, end your name please.
• 17:29
  And I literally was just.
• 17:31
  Dumbstruck that, and I've created this slide where I show that phone
• 17:35
  call happened between, a person and a receptionist, and then I
• 17:38
  take that exact scene and I put it.
• 17:40
  Fireside in a living room and standing online in a grocery store and waiting
• 17:45
  at a bus station, and there is absolutely no place on the planet where
• 17:48
  that is an appropriate response to.
• 17:50
  My son was killed in a car accident, and yet we do become desensitized
• 17:55
  to a lot of these things.
• 17:57
  And it's it's so detrimental to business.
• 18:00
  And the challenge is that you don't want people to fake empathy because
• 18:03
  inauthenticity is just as deadly as lacking empathy altogether.
• 18:08
  Being inauthentic will hurt you just as much.
• 18:10
  So how do we do this for real?
• 18:13
  And Brene Brown, who's one of my favorite authors, has a wonderful piece on empathy
• 18:17
  that I always share with my students.
• 18:19
  Empathy means really reaching deep into yourself.
• 18:24
  Mm-hmm.
• 18:25
  Not just to put yourself in their shoes, but to actually connect with
• 18:28
  what they're going through because of your own troubles and travails.
• 18:32
  And so being empathetic really means you are being vulnerable.
• 18:36
  Mm-hmm.
• 18:36
  Because you have to recognize something in yourself.
• 18:40
  I think if you really shift what empathy means to being vulnerable
• 18:44
  yourself, you can get a better understanding of why that's required
• 18:47
  to to really build a relationship.
• 18:50
  Relationship requires some degree of reciprocity to truly be a relationship.
• 18:55
  And so if you've gotta recognize something in yourself that, that
• 18:58
  connects you to this person.
• 18:59
  One of the most fascinating things I learned, in marketing research
• 19:03
  and studying empathy and intake.
• 19:05
  There were, there was research being done on people who had brain injuries and
• 19:10
  what totally not what they were trying to figure out, but what they figured
• 19:14
  out was that people who have damage to the emotional centers of their brain are
• 19:19
  largely incapable of making decisions.
• 19:24
  And the way I've always described this, it's like having to order when you're not
• 19:28
  hungry, like nothing tastes good, right?
• 19:30
  When your emotional centers are damaged, decision making is really def difficult.
• 19:36
  We require.
• 19:38
  Some degree of emotion to make a decision.
• 19:40
  You have to feel one way or another about it.
• 19:42
  Otherwise I can't help you.
• 19:44
  And so you want people to feel good about the decision to work
• 19:48
  with you, to feel like this is a problem that's going to be solved.
• 19:51
  Like I have somebody on my side and.
• 19:54
  And to your point, just be a better human.
• 19:56
  Let's start with that.
• 19:58
  And I think that, in the age of ai that's gonna be so important.
• 20:03
  Um, so, so, so important.
• 20:05
  I think that's gonna continue to be the differentiator, right?
• 20:08
  Yeah.
• 20:08
  Wrapping up a little bit give me something that a Affirm can do this week that
• 20:13
  you've experienced on the intake side that can help them improve their outcomes.
• 20:17
  Well, let's just let's stick with putting your human hat on and I do think
• 20:21
  we have to really go into every day telling ourselves, nobody calls a law
• 20:26
  firm 'cause they're having a good day.
• 20:28
  That's just the truth.
• 20:29
  I had a really challenging summer last year and totally unrelated to
• 20:36
  any of the events in my own life.
• 20:38
  Capital One called.
• 20:39
  The credit card company with something that was declined.
• 20:42
  And I said, yes, it's me.
• 20:44
  And the chat bot still said, no.
• 20:45
  Now you gotta call the fraud department.
• 20:47
  And I called the fraud department.
• 20:48
  It was like this whole thing.
• 20:50
  Yeah.
• 20:50
  I've been here and this
• 20:51
  poor woman who had to deal with me in a totally unrelated personal crisis was.
• 20:58
  So Ill prepared for the way I was acting, the way I was behaving,
• 21:03
  the way I was treating her, the way this problem wasn't being solved, my
• 21:06
  need for the problem to be solved.
• 21:08
  Mm-hmm.
• 21:08
  It was a disastrous phone call.
• 21:10
  I would kill to have my hands on that phone call for training
• 21:13
  purposes because it was disastrous.
• 21:17
  But the lady at Capital One.
• 21:20
  Did not know that I was having a bad day.
• 21:23
  She called totally unrelated to anything going on in my life.
• 21:26
  Yeah.
• 21:27
  We have the distinct advantage of knowing that people are calling us
• 21:31
  because something has gone very wrong.
• 21:33
  Yeah.
• 21:33
  And we can't placate them with the, oh, I'm so sorry, is it has to be authentic
• 21:39
  and the only way you can really.
• 21:41
  Have that authenticity is first to, to step away for a second.
• 21:45
  Like literally take a minute, breathe when the phone rings and say, okay, I
• 21:50
  got, I've gotta be very present and in this moment with this person, I think
• 21:53
  intake teams need to talk about the stories that they're hearing because
• 21:57
  I do think we dehumanize this simply becoming desensitized because of all
• 22:02
  these terrible things that we hear.
• 22:03
  We need to hear each other say these things and remember
• 22:06
  that this is not normal.
• 22:07
  Hearing about a car accident every single day of your life and everybody's injuries.
• 22:10
  It's not normal for sure.
• 22:12
  And it's easy.
• 22:12
  It's easy to check out from that.
• 22:14
  So recognize what people are coming to you with.
• 22:17
  And the other thing I wanna say because how we use AI and intake is obviously
• 22:22
  a really constant discussion right now.
• 22:25
  We are a service-based business, and I think that the firms that
• 22:31
  really do stand to win are gonna be the ones that, that, that balance
• 22:35
  their funnel with their flywheel.
• 22:38
  How do I have people coming through the door because of marketing,
• 22:40
  but coming back because they had.
• 22:43
  A truly positive experience with a truly terrible time.
• 22:46
  Yeah.
• 22:46
  And if you can't do that, then you're in the wrong line of business.
• 22:50
  You shouldn't be in a service based business.
• 22:52
  And I do think that too many.
• 22:55
  Businesses out there want to solve all the, the hiring challenges and
• 23:00
  the inconsistency with, some plug and chug and it's not going to solve those
• 23:05
  problems and it's not gonna be acceptable.
• 23:06
  I really do think that there are great use cases.
• 23:09
  I don't think a law firm is one of the great use cases.
• 23:12
  Great.
• 23:12
  It's gonna make sure we don't miss a call, but I don't think it's gonna be able to
• 23:16
  build rapport with someone and build the trust and confidence that we can be your
• 23:20
  partner through this challenging time.
• 23:22
  So not a fan of AI and intake for call handling.
• 23:26
  Yeah, no, me neither.
• 23:28
  The law firm growth machine.
• 23:29
  Where can people find that?
• 23:30
  Where can folks find that?
• 23:30
  You can go
• 23:31
  to Book-KerriJames.co.
• 23:34
  That's K-E-R-R-I-J-A-M-E-S .co.
• 23:37
  I know that's annoying.
• 23:38
  Book.KerriJames.co.
• 23:40
  For a copy of the book.
• 23:42
  And I'll even give you a secret code that you can put in your show
• 23:45
  notes if anyone wants to snag a real copy, an actual hard copy for free.
• 23:50
  I'm very proud of the book.
• 23:51
  As I told you offline, I actually wrote it.
• 23:54
  Before chat, GPT hit the market came online.
• 23:57
  And , I'm glad to have gone through that exercise of actually writing a book.
• 24:00
  I never thought it would be about growing a law firm, but here we
• 24:03
  are.
• 24:04
  But you've done such a great job and I appreciate having you on here.
• 24:07
  Our conversations are great.
• 24:09
  I really enjoy.
• 24:10
  Getting a window into what you're building.
• 24:12
  I think it's very meaningful.
• 24:13
  Likewise.
• 24:14
  And it's been great having you on.
• 24:15
  I'll make sure that we put the code in our show notes and push it out.
• 24:18
  And please stay in touch, if we can ever do anything.
• 24:20
  Absolutely.
• 24:21
  Glad to do it.
• 24:22
  Love it.
• 24:22
  Thank you so much, Carrie.
• 24:23
  It's great.
• 24:24
  Thank you, chip, always a pleasure chatting with you and
• 24:26
  working with you, so thank you.
• 24:28
  A big thank you to Kerri Coby White for joining us today.
• 24:31
  You can connect with her on LinkedIn or learn more about
• 24:33
  her work at KerriJames.co.
• 24:35
  And be sure to check out her book, The Law Firm Growth Machine, which you can
• 24:38
  get for free at Offers.KerriJames.co.
• 24:42
  Legal Marketing Radio is a production of LaFleur Marketing.
• 24:45
  You can find us at LaFleur.Marketing and follow us on LinkedIn,
• 24:48
  Facebook, and Instagram.