Latest / Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast / After Math: What Matters When the Numbers Don’t | Ted Dintersmith

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After Math: What Matters When the Numbers Don’t | Ted Dintersmith · Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast

0:00
Welcome to Integrate This, your go -to EdTech
0:03
podcast where curiosity meets classroom innovation.
0:07
Join your hosts, David Berner and Jeremy Mikla,
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as we explore the rapidly evolving world of educational
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technology. From game -changing tools to insightful
0:15
conversations with today's top EdTech voices,
0:18
we're here to help educators stay informed, inspired,
0:21
and ready to innovate. So tune in, level up,
0:25
and let's integrate this. Hello, and welcome
0:39
to the Integrate This EdTech podcast. I'm Jeremy
0:42
Mikla, and I'm joined by co -host David Berner.
0:45
And with our special guest today, we have Ted
0:48
Dintersmith. Ted is a venture capitalist education
0:53
reformer, a film producer. He's an author of
0:56
several books, and we're gonna get into some
0:59
of those today, but they include Aftermath, What
1:02
School Could Be, and Most Likely to Succeed.
1:05
Ted, we're really happy to have you on, and glad
1:08
you could join us today. No, I'm thrilled to
1:10
be here. Yeah, so Ted, what we kind of like to
1:13
do is let our guests kind of kick things off
1:15
and kind of describe the journey that your path
1:20
to today has taken. why you decided to come on
1:23
our and agree to be on our program here, you
1:26
know, like, what is that background that led
1:28
you from, you know, being a venture capitalist?
1:31
I don't know if we've had one of those as a guest
1:34
on our show today. But to your credit, no. Yeah,
1:38
yeah. And, you know, in your path from there
1:40
to being an education reformer. Yeah. Well, you
1:45
may have an audience member too older than I
1:47
am, but I go back a ways. And so schoolwork for
1:51
me, I was in school for a long time, somewhat
1:53
remedial. I went through 21 grades of it before
1:57
I finally got out. And then I spent almost the
2:01
entirety of my money -making career in technology
2:04
innovation. I was with a startup chip manufacturer
2:08
that made, of all things, fast chips to multiply
2:11
numbers together. We'll get back to that later
2:13
in our discussion. And then Adventure Capital,
2:16
which was actually a great field for me. I was
2:18
in venture for 25 years, backing a whole set
2:21
of one or two or three person startups, often
2:24
with some sort of math proprietary edge. All
2:28
that was great. And I never really thought I
2:32
would go back to anything related to school.
2:34
I mean, 21 years was enough, right? Like, how
2:36
much do you need? And then when my kids got to
2:39
middle school, I kind of went from trusting to
2:43
being concerned to being alarmed to feeling like
2:46
this is really deeply off base. And as I started
2:53
to wind down from venture capital, I was looking
2:55
for something else to do. And I felt like I had
2:58
the ability to see what technology innovation
3:00
could do and how fast it was getting better,
3:03
and to understand not so much from the educator
3:06
perspective, but from the world context perspective,
3:10
what skills and mindsets young adults would need.
3:13
And when I saw that there was just this gaping
3:15
disconnect, I felt like I needed to do something,
3:17
which led me to start with the film, Most Likely
3:19
to Succeed, write several books, form a nonprofit,
3:23
do subsequent films. and basically be an advocate
3:26
for priorities in schools that I think teachers
3:29
want, that students desperately need, that parents
3:33
are coming around to understanding are important,
3:36
but fly directly in the face of standardized
3:38
tests and an entrenched bureaucracy. Yeah, I
3:43
could just kind of picture you, you know, like
3:45
when we're recording this, it's still kind of
3:47
in that back to school kind of mode of the school
3:50
year. And I just thought my daughter who's in
3:54
college had one of these signs, you know, to
3:56
post on Facebook. Today is my first day of 16th
4:00
grade. What I was imagining was your sign that
4:05
said first day of 21st grade. Took a while. Yeah,
4:10
yeah, but you know that background definitely
4:12
lends itself to a lot of experience in the education
4:15
world and you start to gain kind of a perspective
4:17
there. Is there Is there something else with
4:20
maybe your background in math that led you to
4:23
kind of identify some of those flaws within our
4:26
current system? Yeah, let me start with a general
4:29
point and then a specific to math point. The
4:32
general point is this. I got out of high school
4:34
in 1970. And in 1970, 99 % of the jobs in the
4:39
economy were wrote jobs. And in 1970, the demands
4:43
to be an informed citizen boiled down to which
4:46
is two newspapers you read. or which of two or
4:48
three news stations you watched. It was a much
4:51
slimmer world. And in that world, an education
4:56
regimen that prioritized rote skills, rote learning,
5:01
actually made sense. And I think it largely explains
5:03
why our nation did so well through much of the
5:06
last century. Today, rote jobs are almost entirely
5:11
gone. I mean, they are disappearing fast. And
5:14
the complexities and challenges of being an informed
5:17
citizen are enormously more difficult than they
5:21
used to be. And to me, that dramatic change in
5:24
the context of our world demands deeply rethinking
5:29
the priorities of school, which we have failed
5:30
to do to a large extent. The math, I think, is
5:33
really, you know, I can tell the story of math
5:37
with a simple movie or film most people are familiar
5:40
with. There was a book written by Margot Shatterly
5:42
called Hidden Figures. turned into a film, both
5:46
were remarkable. These incredibly talented Black
5:49
women who were superb at doing hairball math
5:54
calculations by hand, which is not easy. And
5:58
for the space missions, they were the ones who
6:00
had to do triple integrals quickly, accurately,
6:03
paper and pencil, maybe a slide rule. And those
6:06
missions depended on their ability to do that.
6:09
Around 1970, those women, Katherine Johnson most
6:12
notably, Saw the future right? They saw the the
6:17
vacuum tube computers going over to the IBM mainframes
6:21
and they said like all of these things that we're
6:23
good at are quickly becoming irrelevant and they
6:27
moved on and NASA moved on the space missions
6:30
moved on basically the world moved on other than
6:34
schools and schools to this day continue to push
6:38
kids to excel at low level math mechanics for
6:43
tests where they have to do those mechanics quickly
6:45
and accurately by hand. And you realize, wait
6:49
a minute, why would we not modernize math curriculum
6:53
in a world that says, hey, your phone does all
6:56
the rope mechanics. What's really important is
6:58
to understand the ideas. And I think math, in
7:00
many ways, is a poster child for our collective
7:03
failure to adapt school priorities to a very
7:06
different world. Do you think there's a component
7:09
of that, too, where math kind of gets a bad rap.
7:14
You either get math or you don't get math. And
7:17
either you can do those road calculations or
7:19
you can't, which then I think kind of leads some
7:22
students and even adults to have this fear of
7:26
math, like, ooh, it's math. I'm not good at it.
7:29
I'm never going to be good at it. And then maybe
7:31
they approach it with kind of that closed mindset.
7:34
Yeah. You know, several years ago, I took this
7:37
a bit of a crazy trip, but I spent an entire
7:39
school year and I went to all 50 states in 10
7:42
and a half months, visited 200 schools and had
7:45
thousands of conversations. And over and over,
7:48
I would hear from people about math. I mean,
7:52
math doesn't touch people lightly. Everybody
7:55
has their math story. And when you just say the
7:58
word math to people, it evokes strong emotions.
8:00
And you'll find some where math was their best
8:04
friend in school. It was mine, you know, like
8:07
the ability to do initially early grades a bunch
8:10
of multiplications quickly by hand Then be able
8:13
to move to long division by hand to get the quotient
8:15
in the remainder. You know, some people can do
8:18
that really well Looking back and even looking
8:21
at things the world today. I mean, it's irrelevant,
8:23
right? Nobody needs to divide one thousand eight
8:26
hundred and sixteen into twenty four thousand
8:28
eight hundred and nineteen and get the quotient
8:31
remainder I mean, but other than on your test
8:34
But so many people would say what you just said,
8:38
well, you know, I'm just not a math person. And
8:41
I think more importantly, and some would share
8:44
this quite personally, their math classes made
8:47
them feel really stupid, made them feel like
8:50
somehow they were lacking in something important.
8:53
And the number of conversations I had with people,
8:56
people would often be in tears talking about
8:59
their math experience. And often it took this
9:02
form, like I was good up until. And then they
9:07
got to a class where the abstract formalism was
9:09
too much and the teacher couldn't bring it to
9:11
life for them or they didn't have parents hiring
9:14
a tutor or whatever. And they just sort of hit
9:16
that math wall. And if math were an elective,
9:19
if math were sort of off on the side, that'd
9:22
be one thing. But it's half the SATs. It's half
9:25
the high stakes, you know, nation's report card
9:27
exams. It's half of what every superintendent
9:29
is held accountable to. And so those math scores
9:34
get equated to somebody's intelligence. And when
9:38
your math score isn't very good, because you
9:40
can't do low -level procedures quickly and accurately
9:44
by hand, when that score isn't good, it's very
9:48
hard for a 13-, 14-, 15 -year -old to look beyond
9:51
that. And they would just say, hey, in important
9:54
ways, I'm not smart. And when that builds into
9:59
your self -image and self -esteem, the ripples
10:02
are substantial and far reaching. So Ted, one
10:09
of the things that Jeremy and I, we get an opportunity
10:12
to talk to a lot of folks on the podcast about
10:14
how we can make school better for students. And
10:19
so I'm kind of curious, what are the things that,
10:22
as you've worked with a lot of different schools,
10:24
varying states, What are the things that you
10:28
find that set apart classrooms that really give
10:32
students what they need, that engage them more?
10:35
That's one thing that's come up on the podcast
10:38
recently and before as well is like, how do you
10:41
engage students? How do you make sure that they
10:44
have multiple opportunities for ways that they
10:49
themselves learn? Because there's varying, you
10:51
know, preferences of learning and things like
10:53
that. What are the things that you found that
10:55
are their common traits that set apart classrooms
10:58
that really give students agency and engage them
11:02
more? Yeah, no, it's a great question. And I've
11:05
done my best. I have tried hard not to just be
11:09
the person throwing bricks at the system as it
11:13
exists. And so my books and my films almost the
11:17
entirety of those works is to highlight bright
11:20
spots. You know, my book that I wrote after that
11:23
trip is called What School Could Be, but the
11:26
subtitle is Insights and Inspiration from Teachers
11:29
Across America. And I feel like if you can show
11:32
people bright spots, which we did in the film
11:34
Most Likely to Succeed, which we've done in the
11:36
more recent film, the film that came out a few
11:39
months ago, Multiple Choice, which is on PBS
11:41
stations all around the country right now. We
11:44
go deep into places where teachers are trusted
11:49
to teach to their passions and their expertise,
11:52
not held to some day -by -day curriculum, where
11:56
students are encouraged to explore their interest
11:58
and go deep and far with what they find interesting,
12:01
to develop skills that actually will serve them
12:03
well as adults, where there's a sense of purpose
12:06
that just runs through those classrooms or schools
12:09
or even districts. In showing those bright spots,
12:13
what I hope is we're able to get people excited,
12:16
to not have them say, oh, we could never do this,
12:19
or it's not really possible, or a million different
12:23
ways we'd like to rationalize why we can't move
12:26
beyond obsolete, to say, hey, it's happening
12:29
probably in your school, definitely in your district.
12:32
You can find great teachers, probably the two
12:34
of you. You can find these great examples everywhere.
12:37
This isn't something we need to invent from scratch.
12:41
It's there. The issue is teachers who do that,
12:46
principals who do that, even superintendents,
12:48
the rare superintendents that do that are cutting
12:50
against the grain. But you have to be a bit bold.
12:54
You have to be willing to go rogue. You have
12:56
to say, I don't really care if I'm not on chapter
12:59
18, section 12 on November 9th. And what I found
13:06
is I traveled and I asked people about those
13:09
great bright spots. They were things that the
13:13
teacher believed in deeply, and the teacher had
13:16
the support of their principal. Or if it was
13:18
at the school level, it was a model the principal
13:21
believed was terribly important to prepare kids
13:25
for the world they're going to be adults in,
13:27
with somebody else, the parent body, the superintendent,
13:30
if it was a public district, having their back.
13:33
And so it's not like nuclear fusion, where we
13:36
spent 50, 60 years trying to invent it. It's
13:39
right in front of us, right? You've seen it.
13:41
I've seen it. I'm sure many of your guests exhibit
13:43
it. We know what to do. It's just when it doesn't
13:48
conform with an entrenched model, and when the
13:51
entire focus isn't chasing higher test scores,
13:55
it can be very fatiguing for the teacher or the
13:59
principal who's pushing that agenda. And unfortunately,
14:03
what you find is somebody will make a lot of
14:05
progress. But when they move on, you know, the
14:07
principal moves to a different school or the
14:09
classroom teacher, yeah, you know, out of, they're
14:14
in those classrooms out of pure dedication. I
14:17
mean, I absolutely love classroom teachers. I'm
14:19
very proud to have been, as a business guy, right,
14:23
as a business guy, I'm the only business guy
14:24
to get the NEA Friend of Education Award, which
14:27
went to Thurgood Marshall and LBJ. Sitting right
14:30
there is my... an award I got in June from the
14:33
National Teachers Hall of Fame. And I think the
14:35
reason they admire me is that I show what they
14:39
can do at their best. I present that in the context
14:43
of what we should no longer be doing. And I respect
14:47
and understand that the people in the field doing
14:49
the hard work are the real experts. And my role
14:52
through films and books is only to amplify the
14:55
power of what they're doing. So I have kind of
14:59
a follow -up question for you. that ties in a
15:01
little bit there is something that I've been
15:04
wondering a lot over the years is do we do we
15:08
keep students in school for too long? You know,
15:12
like one of the things that I think about is
15:14
we have kind of a system where you know, obviously
15:17
they're in their K through 12th grade. So, you
15:20
know, typically five to 18 years old. But then
15:23
we have the workforce typically is going to be
15:26
starting at 16. We have some students that go
15:30
pseo we have and and I would say too there's
15:34
also element of where we really for a while there
15:37
and I'm not I'm out of the classroom for a while
15:39
now um directly but we've pushed a lot of kids
15:44
to go to college and I'm kind of wondering your
15:46
take on do we not provide enough avenues for
15:49
students once they hit more that 16 mark where
15:52
they could do some like vocational school options
15:55
or you know or be out in the workforce more so
15:59
because there's so many kids that you know they're
16:01
not they're not ready for college like I myself
16:04
being one of them like I didn't start college
16:06
right away until I was like 20 because I just
16:08
worked for a while after and a lot of times too
16:11
when you go to college it's always been interesting
16:13
to me how you you take all these classes your
16:16
K through 12th grade career at high school and
16:20
all that And then the first thing you have to
16:22
do for the first two years of college is take
16:25
more general courses, which is just basically
16:27
what you've been doing for the last how many
16:29
years. So I'm just curious your take on that.
16:31
And if you feel like there should be more avenues
16:34
for students and is it kind of a broken way of
16:39
doing things, I guess, you know, where we have
16:41
them continue to stay there and then push them
16:44
to college. Yeah. Well, let me start with Kate
16:46
through 12 and then come to post. In K through
16:50
12, first, if there's one insight I've gained
16:53
in my travels, it's when students are engaged,
16:56
they learn. And when they're bored, it doesn't
16:59
matter what you do to try to make them retain
17:02
the content they don't learn. And so, you know,
17:05
I often contrast, imagine if you said to students,
17:08
you have to be in school during the summer. If
17:11
students said, fantastic, we love it here. Versus,
17:14
are you kidding? I can't wait to be done. You
17:18
know, I mean, it would be a world of difference.
17:19
And that can be done, right? You know, when I
17:22
visit these bright spots, when I see them in
17:23
action, these kids are not counting the days
17:26
till they're out of school. They're like, they
17:28
feel a deep sense of purpose. They're building
17:30
self -confidence. They see the skills they're
17:32
developing and know those skills are going to
17:34
be really important. So during those K through
17:36
12 years, it's not more or less, it's what? And
17:40
the film, Multiple Choice, worth highlighting
17:42
here, shows this public school in Winchester,
17:47
Virginia, A community that reflects, I think,
17:50
what's going on in America, a lot of free and
17:52
reduced lunch kids, I think it's like 87 % are
17:55
on free lunch, so it's not a well -off district.
17:58
But what that superintendent did, a guy named
18:00
Jason Van Heukelum, is he was able to convince
18:04
the district that it was important to immerse
18:07
all kids in career -based learning. So every
18:11
kid in high school, whether they're planning
18:13
to go to college or planning to go directly in
18:15
career, spends meaningful amounts of time in
18:17
something they call not the vocational ed center
18:20
or the career and technical education center,
18:22
they call it the innovation center. And so you'll
18:25
have kids going to college taking lots of carpentry
18:28
and welding, and you'll have kids who want to
18:30
be carpenters, you know, getting really good
18:33
writing skills in that innovation center of all
18:35
things. But the important thing there is that
18:38
whether you plan to go to college or not, you
18:40
hit the ground running. And so there are kids
18:43
that find their lane in carpentry can move on
18:48
to a great job without more years of education.
18:51
We have one student who was never gonna finish
18:53
high school who finds his way into a firefighter's
18:56
academy there. He graduates, great. He gets a
19:01
job, a full -time job with the local firefighting
19:04
station, great. We find out after the film is
19:07
done that he and his mom his last two years of
19:09
high school lived in a car. They can now live
19:12
some, you know, it's like these are life -changing
19:15
stories. The power and the reason I did a documentary
19:18
on it is it's the power of all. It's if you say
19:22
those kids are gonna do these hands -on skills,
19:26
but the kids we really celebrate are gonna be
19:28
in the AP courses and we're gonna put on a website
19:31
which kids got into which college. You treat
19:34
kids who are pursuing a really interesting path
19:37
as second -class citizens. And if you look around
19:39
your community, I mean, who holds your community
19:41
together? It is the people who build the houses,
19:45
the people who come and fix your electrical system
19:48
or the people who make sure your house stays
19:50
cool during the summer or heated during the winter.
19:53
And so we have that opportunity to rethink the
19:57
priorities of high school. And I think every
20:00
school in the country, every high school should
20:02
be emulating in their own way that model where
20:06
kids sit side by side. in an experience that
20:09
challenges them to go deep, find the things they're
20:12
really interested in, connect those to career
20:14
paths. And I think most importantly, respect
20:17
the fact that I might be good at some math in
20:21
school and the person next to me might be just
20:24
like my dad, my dad was a carpenter, might be
20:26
really good at woodworking. And we understand
20:29
that we can be intelligent in very different
20:31
ways. I think the power, and I'm... doing my
20:34
best to elevate this to some sort of a national
20:37
agenda. If you follow that with a year of mandatory
20:41
national service, every time I write about or
20:44
talk about national service, all I get are high
20:46
fives from people. Why aren't we doing this?
20:49
And you can imagine all the young adults that
20:52
feel cut off, that feel like there isn't a great
20:55
path for them forward, that are, as you say,
20:57
told you've got to go to college and drop out
20:59
with debt or. go through the motions for four
21:01
years and leave with a lot of debt, no sense
21:03
of direction. If you followed career -based learning
21:06
in high school with a year of giving back to
21:09
your community, as you further develop hireable
21:12
skills, those kids that go to college will have
21:15
a much more informed view of what they want to
21:17
get out of it. And the kids that decide college
21:19
doesn't need to be their path are off and running.
21:24
Whether we have too much or too little, I will
21:26
say this, why to this day our colleges still
21:31
sit on four years of mandatory seat time, you
21:35
know, distribution requirements, prerequisites,
21:38
instead of some degree of competency -based learning.
21:42
You know, it's like, no, you should be rethinking
21:44
what it means to be a college graduate. And it
21:47
doesn't have to be four years. And we should
21:49
be giving a lot more respect to somebody who
21:52
perhaps gets a community college and associates
21:54
degree in two years and is often running on a
21:56
great path. And those paths don't have to be
21:59
jobs you look down. You can become an expert
22:04
on artificial intelligence in six months. That's
22:07
a great career start. I think that there's just
22:10
a failure of imagination. There's just sort of
22:12
like, this is the way we've always done it, so
22:15
this is the way we're going to keep doing it
22:17
until eventually the wheels completely fall off,
22:20
in which case we'll look for somebody else to
22:22
blame. And I don't wanna keep ripping on college,
22:27
but because I do find - Go for it. No, no, it
22:30
needs to be - I do think it's valuable, right?
22:33
Obviously, there's value to it. The only thing
22:35
that I'm thinking about, and I wanna get your
22:38
take on this too, because you kind of alluded
22:40
to it there, was for colleges, is it sometimes
22:45
just about the money? Because if I think back
22:50
at my teaching degree, and I don't know how Jeremy
22:52
feels, But there was a core group of classes
22:55
like my pedagogy classes and some of the like
23:00
the social studies block of classes that were
23:03
pretty essential prior to my actual like in the
23:09
field experience, which honestly the in the field
23:12
experience was there probably should have been
23:14
the vast majority of my time in college should
23:16
have been that because that was the most valuable
23:18
was the actual like doing of the teaching, right?
23:21
like the 20 hour field experience, 100 hour field
23:23
experience and the student teaching, like that
23:25
was the most beneficial. And then second to that
23:27
would be like the pedagogy. Although the pedagogy
23:30
obviously informs that, so they're complimentary,
23:32
but all those things were extremely important.
23:34
But I took so many classes that I spent money
23:37
on that didn't really have anything to do with
23:39
any of that. So are you kind of, is that your
23:42
take two where it's like, can we have more of
23:44
a focused approach to the goal? Let me talk about
23:48
a couple of things. One, first, the funnel is
23:50
important to highlight here. These are US statistics.
23:54
Start with 1 ,000 kids in the US today. 100 never
23:57
finish high school. They're in a world of hurt.
24:01
Of the 900 who finish high school, 350 go directly
24:04
to career. But they're often in college prep
24:07
high schools. So career means Chick -fil -A,
24:11
not an apprentice job with the local electrician.
24:13
So out of those 350, most of them with our current
24:16
model are hurting. Now you're down to 450 to
24:21
go to college. Half don't finish. So let's say
24:24
out of that 550, 275 don't finish. They often
24:28
leave with debt and not a whole lot to show for
24:30
it. So now we've got 275 who finish. 10 years
24:33
later, half earn a job consistent with a high
24:36
school degree, not a college degree. And so you're
24:39
down to like 140 who finish college. get a job
24:44
consistent with a college degree, often still
24:46
paying off debt. You know, there are 3 million
24:48
adults in America over age 62 still paying off
24:51
student loan debt. And so does it work for some?
24:54
I think it works for some. But when people tell
24:57
me, and many do, that of course everyone needs
24:59
to have a college degree, I say, A, look at the
25:02
funnel, and B, read Richard Arum and Josepha
25:05
Rox's book, Academically Adrift, where they look
25:09
at how much is really learned by most kids in
25:11
college. And they conclude that it's shockingly
25:14
little. Yet, you see these innovative models.
25:17
I'm a big fan of Northeastern with their co -op
25:19
model. So length of school, you actually spend
25:24
typically five years to get your Northeastern
25:26
college degree, not four. But of those five years,
25:29
two to two and a half are internships often paid.
25:33
So you're really only doing two and a half years
25:35
or so of classroom time. But you have explored
25:38
different careers, hit the ground running. it's
25:41
a fantastic model that costs a lot less and far
25:45
better to prepare students. But Northeastern,
25:47
I mean, they have a few others that have sort
25:49
of in that camp with that model, but most are
25:53
large lecture halls, academic content, delivered
25:57
to students by somebody who talks at them for
26:00
45 minutes with a fact -based recall exam that
26:03
basically says, do you remember what I told you
26:05
and can you say it back? So the college model
26:08
is in urgent need of innovation. And I think
26:10
you're going to see real pressure, because as
26:13
the number of college -age kids goes down, as
26:16
we make it much harder for Ford students to come
26:18
to the US, enrollments are going to drop, and
26:22
many colleges are just going to be on their backs
26:25
financially. Since we're on this thread of the
26:29
higher education institutions and stuff, I've
26:33
had this feeling here for a while that higher
26:36
ed really needs to start thinking of itself as
26:40
being an outlet for lifelong learning and retraining
26:45
and maybe even micro credentialing people for
26:49
changes in career paths that they're going to
26:52
have over the course of their lifetime. I think
26:54
they get stuck in this idea that they they have
26:57
to be just for that group that is 18 to early
27:00
20s. But you know you start to look at the the
27:05
world that these kids that are graduating either
27:07
from high school or college, and even people
27:09
like myself, like in their 50s, 50 now, like
27:13
I might want to shift the types of things that
27:16
I'm doing. What sort of new experiences can I
27:19
find and where can I find the training and support
27:22
that I need to get to that point? And so it doesn't
27:24
necessarily have to be a losing proposition that,
27:27
you know, we're not going to get this huge sum
27:29
of money from this group that's going to go into
27:31
debt, but rather I want to find pathways to allow
27:35
for them to be able to advance their livelihoods
27:39
over the next, you know, how long are people
27:41
going to work? 40, 50 years? Yeah. No, bingo.
27:45
I think that's an excellent point. And suddenly
27:48
these colleges, you know, particularly the ones
27:50
that are really hard to get into, if they offered
27:53
shorter birth micro credentials, far more students
27:57
would benefit from an experience at College X
27:59
that right now is limited to 1500 students per
28:03
year with most, you know, one of the things I
28:05
think we've done enormous damage to young kids
28:09
with is the college admissions process. And so,
28:12
you know, when you go to high schools, it's really
28:14
like, oh, these kids got into the Ivy League
28:16
school and parents buy into that and the community
28:19
buys into that. And so many of these kids are
28:23
basically told if you don't get into one of 12
28:27
or one of 30 exclusive colleges, you've somehow
28:30
fallen short. And so we're pushing these kids
28:33
by the age of 18 to be Olympic athletes and patent
28:38
holders and published research authors and, by
28:42
the way, and built a hospital in Haiti on the
28:44
side. And that's not normal childhood, right?
28:48
I mean, we're really literally wrecking these
28:50
kids' childhoods by pushing them to be far further
28:54
along at age 18 than makes any sense at all.
28:57
And I look back, you know, my generation, so
29:00
back to 1970 when we graduated, most of my classmates,
29:04
when I, when I talked to my classmates and say,
29:07
do you remember doing homework? Generally, the
29:10
answer is, I think I did some, you know, but
29:13
very little. You know, did you take the SAT?
29:17
Well, you know, like my, I'm an example, took
29:19
it once, no prep. You know, we all were reading
29:22
the booklet at the beginning trying to figure
29:23
out what the heck this was about. You know, my
29:26
high school had two AP courses where it wasn't
29:28
curriculum driven and nobody really cared about
29:30
the scores, but it was kind of like some kids
29:33
that were really interested in English took the
29:35
course. And it's like, did that cause this enormous
29:38
lack of on damage? Did somehow the vintage of
29:42
young adults coming out of schools in 1970 do
29:45
way worse than they're, I mean, we're ruining
29:47
kids' mental health. to push them toward this
29:51
goal of getting into an incredibly exclusive
29:54
college that is sitting on a massive endowment
29:57
with a total failure to visualize how they could
30:00
expand and support far more students benefiting
30:03
from that experience. And I just say like, to
30:06
what end, right? I mean, why do you have this
30:09
so upside down? And the price we pay for that
30:13
is enormous. And just talk to any family with
30:16
a kid who's 17. And they'll tell you that my
30:19
kid's going through hell. And everybody's bearing
30:22
down on them. For which colleges are you applying
30:24
to? And what have you heard? Where are you applying?
30:27
If you mention elite colleges, it's like, where
30:30
are you applying? That's great. If you were to
30:32
say, you know, I'm not going to go to college.
30:35
And say like, you know, boy, those parents have
30:37
let that kid down. I mean, like such bullshit.
30:40
I don't know what words you're okay with here.
30:43
But I mean, it's really, it's so unfortunate.
30:46
And these kids, they get that, right? They're
30:49
not getting enough sleep. They're not able to
30:51
have time for free exploration. They're not able
30:55
to go deep on something they care about because
30:57
that will take an hour away from to math, studying
31:01
arc secants and the chain, you know, a bunch
31:03
of math they're never gonna use as an adult.
31:06
somehow takes priority over the things that bring
31:08
them joy and purpose and equip them with skills
31:10
that matter. And knowing that, which I know it,
31:15
being able to write books, which I think I do
31:18
a great job of writing books, being able to make
31:19
films, I feel an obligation to speak out about
31:23
that because somebody has to, right? So what
31:27
do I mean? So I have a son who graduated high
31:31
school in 2021. there through COVID, and then
31:35
my daughter who graduated in 2023, and neither
31:40
one of them had to submit an ACT or an SAT score
31:44
on their college applications because that went
31:47
away during COVID. Well, they both took the ACT
31:51
test, and because their scores were not very
31:56
good, you know, they decided not to submit them.
31:59
It was optional, right? And now we hear, and
32:02
By the way, my son graduated in four years with
32:05
a physics degree from a great university here
32:08
in Minnesota and is doing, is doing well. He's
32:12
got, he's got a job. You know, he wants to be
32:15
challenged. He wants to be challenged a little
32:20
bit more at it than what he is, but there's a
32:23
little bit of, let's put some time in and let's
32:24
consider what you want to take as your next steps.
32:27
But let's live in the moment for now. And my
32:30
daughter is starting her fourth year in nursing
32:35
at another fine institution. And they didn't
32:40
have to take the ACT. And now I'm hearing more
32:44
and more colleges are reverting back. to the
32:48
way that it was before COVID. And what is it
32:52
about this college admissions process that has
32:56
such a stranglehold on the high school curricula
33:00
and in trying to make that correlation between
33:03
the score you get on the test is going to, you
33:07
know, be the cause of your future success? Yeah,
33:11
let me start with an anecdote that I think tells
33:15
the story. So, You know, I was talking to one
33:17
person about my book about math, and they said,
33:19
oh, you ought to talk to this other person. She's
33:21
one of the top math education policy experts
33:25
in the country. So I say, great. So could you
33:27
introduce us? They do. So I get on a Zoom call
33:30
with her. And I make my introductory comments,
33:33
which is kids spend several thousand hours in
33:35
high school on math that they will never use
33:38
as an adult, that their smartphone does perfectly,
33:42
that's a holdover from the time period before
33:44
we had computers. And along the way, despite
33:48
those thousands of hours, they're not understanding
33:51
the important math ideas that can make or break
33:53
their lives. She says, well, let me just stop
33:57
you there. And it was sort of this condescending,
34:00
let me just stop you there. She said, you know,
34:02
Ted, there's a reason why the Ivy League stopped
34:06
using test scores during COVID, but they're all
34:08
coming back to using them. Because Ted, you know,
34:11
pat on the head, It turns out that SAT scores
34:14
are a really important predictor of success later
34:17
in life. I said, well, that's very interesting.
34:21
So because I write about that in my book, do
34:24
you mind if I ask you a few questions about that?
34:26
She says, sure. I say, have you read the study?
34:30
No. Do you know who did the study? No. Do you
34:33
know it was the college board that has a cash
34:36
balance of $1 .75 billion on the backs of those
34:40
tests? I didn't know that. Since you didn't read
34:44
the study, I assume you don't know what the study
34:46
math was that supports their assertion. No, I
34:49
don't. Do you know what a correlation is? I don't
34:53
think I do. I said, well, if you go to their
34:56
study, the correlation between SAT scores and
34:58
success later in life is 0 .31. First of all,
35:03
do you know how they define success later in
35:04
life? No, I don't. Well, that's based on your
35:08
first year of college GPA, which doesn't seem
35:10
like a whole I have to watch my language. Doesn't
35:15
seem like a particularly great measure of success
35:17
later in life, does it? And do you know what
35:19
0 .31 correlation means? Well, you have to square
35:22
it. Do you know what an R squared is? No, I don't.
35:24
You square the correlation to get R squared.
35:27
That's 10%. So the very study, the analytics,
35:31
the math that the college board offers to make
35:34
their assertion actually disproves their assertion.
35:37
And then I said, here's the problem. And this
35:40
wins me a lot of brownie points. I'm not going
35:42
to be on this person's holiday card list. I said,
35:44
you're the problem, right? You throw out these
35:47
assertions without any understanding, and people
35:52
pay attention to you. And so when we have math
35:54
-illiterate policymakers reciting the problem,
35:57
this is actually a really important predictor
35:59
later in life, you get what we've got, which
36:02
is this continued insistence on doing things
36:05
that don't proved to be of any use to adults,
36:10
then in the unlikely event you did need it, you
36:13
could just turn to your phone to get it. And
36:15
then hollows out any sense of purpose from the
36:18
school process for kids and makes most kids feel
36:21
darn stupid. And like, how does this stand, right?
36:27
And in my book, I'll shift gears, and the beauty
36:30
of being in my situation, I don't require funding
36:32
from anybody, so I can just be bombs away and
36:34
say things. I talk about the fact that the head
36:37
of the Gates Foundation at the time, Education
36:40
Foundation, is putting a billion dollars up to
36:44
improve high school algebra scores. Again, because
36:48
high school algebra scores are correlated to
36:51
success later in life. But again, that narrow
36:54
definition of first year college GPA. And my
36:57
point there is that he doesn't understand the
37:00
difference between correlated and causal data.
37:04
You know, like, yes. better high school algebra
37:07
scores, yes, high school calculus, you know,
37:10
AP scores are going to be correlated with higher
37:13
first year college GPAs because those kids by
37:16
and large are in better funded schools with more
37:20
affluent, more tenacious parents with teachers
37:23
that can somehow make integration by parts seem
37:26
interesting to kids, which is hard. And the kids
37:30
that don't have those circumstances are not gonna
37:32
do as well. So when you've got the people that
37:35
pull the levers of education power, offering
37:38
these evidence -free math assertions that then
37:44
serve kids so poorly, I'm saying like, whoa,
37:49
we have the blind, you know, pulling young kids
37:52
into dead -end alleys, right? And you deserve,
37:55
these kids deserve better, right? I mean, it
37:58
shouldn't be on the backs of a 15 -year -old
37:59
to say, wait, I'm never going to use this. But
38:02
those 15 -year -olds, by the way, they do ask
38:05
math teachers, when am I ever going to use this?
38:08
And one of the things I've been gratified with
38:10
the book is the number of math teachers that
38:13
are actually saying to me, thank you. I thought,
38:16
you write a book, and you say at the end, nobody
38:20
uses the bulk of high school math, that somebody
38:23
who's dedicated their life to teaching that might
38:25
really be kind of annoyed with me. And so many
38:28
are saying somebody needed to say this, because
38:31
we would love to teach our kids the powerful,
38:34
interesting ideas that will make or break them
38:36
in the future. Wouldn't that be great if we could
38:40
do that? And they could, and they'd love to.
38:44
It's just that there's a direct collision between
38:46
those powerful ideas and what can be boiled down
38:49
to an A, B, C, or D question on a multiple choice
38:52
exam. And so the College Board and the Educational
38:55
Testing Service They love things like factor
38:58
x cubed minus three x squared plus two x minus
39:01
five because it's a, b, c, or d, right? And you've
39:05
got 45 seconds more or less to answer those questions.
39:08
And one of them is right and three of them are
39:10
wrong. And let's say bollocks up the test would
39:12
say do from time to time. But I mean, find me
39:15
an adult who is factoring a third order polynomial.
39:19
I mean, there aren't any, right? Right. And it
39:22
just blows your mind. And you just say, if the
39:24
people making the most important decisions don't
39:29
understand basic statistics concepts that don't
39:32
understand correlated data and what could lead
39:35
to those correlations and what even those correlations
39:37
mean, somebody needs to speak out. And what a
39:44
way to engage kids into. the math mode of thinking
39:50
is to bring and introduce this idea of correlation.
39:53
And that is something that they can use in so
39:56
many different facets of life. And maybe, maybe
40:00
this is a big reach, but maybe helping to understand
40:03
some of the difficulties that people are having
40:05
with each other and engaging in constructive
40:08
conversations, especially via social media that
40:11
introduces these different algorithms to it.
40:13
I get that too. But, you know, that to me, is
40:16
all really a math form of thinking and using
40:20
math logic in ways that go beyond just factoring,
40:25
you know, third degree polynomials. Yeah. You
40:28
know, in every, I have, I call it eight glorious
40:30
chapters in the book and then went stink bomb.
40:32
So I've got these chapters on estimation and
40:35
prediction and moneyball statistics and probability
40:37
beyond heads and tails and optimization and algorithms
40:41
and decisions and game theory. And then the last
40:44
chapter is, of course, we get to none of that
40:45
in schools because we bury kids in a bunch of
40:47
these low level math mechanics just because it's
40:50
convenient for the testing organizations. But
40:52
every one of those eight chapters starts with
40:54
something I've either done or observed with elementary
40:57
school kids. This isn't graduate school math,
41:01
even though that's where I really got immersed
41:03
in these ideas. This is things that fourth graders,
41:06
fifth graders can do. And a good example is the
41:09
estimation chapter starts with, hey, glass vase,
41:13
a bunch of jelly beans in it, come up with your
41:15
estimate. How many jelly beans are in that glass
41:17
jar? And you see these kids spring to life, and
41:21
you say, we're going to look at what numbers
41:24
you come up with. But we want you to explain
41:26
your approach. And when I do this with young
41:29
kids, you find these kids, third, fourth, fifth
41:31
graders, come up with really interesting approaches
41:34
to it. You know, it begs for, that's the thing.
41:37
It's like most people think math has no creativity.
41:40
There's no room for creativity in math. Creative
41:43
math is an oxymoron. Well, the math that matters
41:46
to us in life, the math that really does make
41:48
or break us, begs for creativity. It obviously
41:51
is rooted in logic. But if we don't understand
41:54
the ideas, we're not gonna get anywhere. And
41:58
we've submitted a film to a top film festival,
42:02
so we gotta wait and see how that plays out.
42:04
But sometime early next year, we'll have a film
42:06
out about this math teacher in Colorado who goes
42:09
rogue. He said, I'm not teaching kids arch -secants
42:12
and definition of irrational. All this stuff
42:14
I know they're never going to use. So he immerses
42:16
his kids in data analytics tied to actual challenges
42:20
they're going to face in life. So we focus on
42:23
kids understanding the math behind online gambling.
42:28
But it also ties understanding that math to policy.
42:32
And so these kids understand that if you make
42:35
50 bets on FanDuel, the chances you come out
42:37
ahead are essentially zero. Yet, get this, 25
42:42
% of young adults think online gambling will
42:44
be an important driver of their long -term wealth
42:46
appreciation. But these kids then meet with a
42:49
state assemblyman in Colorado, and then they
42:53
meet with the governor of Colorado to make their
42:57
case for tighter regulation of online gambling,
43:00
particularly for young adults. One of the kids
43:03
is a two -time Colorado basketball player of
43:06
the year now at the Air Force Academy, who sheds
43:09
light on when you're an athlete, you're under,
43:11
you know, people are going to bet if you miss
43:13
four free throws in a row in the second quarter,
43:15
I can make a lot of money. Hey, how about this?
43:19
You know, it's like, you know, and you just realize
43:21
like online gambling can sink kids into debt
43:26
they'll never get out of. Shouldn't we teach
43:28
them the math to deal with that, to understand
43:30
what is trying to lure them in, how they're trying
43:33
to lure them in, and what the real odds are that
43:35
it'll come out ahead. And I just sort of like,
43:38
my mind explodes, like why wouldn't we give that
43:40
far more priority than this whole mountain of
43:43
stuff that nobody uses? So Ted, I got one more
43:49
question for you here. So what I'm wondering
43:51
is if you were to be in front of, let's say you
43:55
had two minutes in front of a local school board,
43:58
what What single policy or priority would you
44:02
urge them to and you kind of go either or here
44:05
or or take them both on? But what would you urge
44:08
urge them as a policy or priority to eliminate
44:10
and what would you encourage them to? Take on
44:14
the change. Yeah, I would well the take on is
44:17
easy. I'd say watch the film multiple choice
44:20
Understand the power for all kids whether they
44:22
plan to go to college or directly to career of
44:25
being immersed in career based learning You have
44:27
a running start because there's probably a career
44:30
and technical education center that some kids
44:32
in your district or school are using today. Lean
44:35
into that. Help all kids explore careers, do
44:39
more internships, be able to enter young adult
44:43
life with a running set of hireable skills and
44:47
informed sense of what they want to do. That's
44:48
what I do more of. And then I'd say, I will bet
44:51
anything that most of your discussion has been
44:54
about how we can get our reading and math scores
44:57
up. And here's all I ask. Go look at the practice
45:02
questions, okay? Look at the practice questions
45:06
for your state exam. Look at the practice school
45:08
questions and the SAT and ask yourself, how important
45:12
is this to me as an adult? And I think when you
45:16
look at the practice questions, the whole curtain
45:19
draws back and you say, you see it's not. this
45:23
powerful all -important goal that of course we
45:25
should be chasing with everything in our power,
45:28
but we're chasing the end of the rainbow that
45:31
doesn't exist. Before we got on together, we
45:37
were chatting and you said, give you enough time
45:40
and enough space and you could go on for an infinite
45:43
amount of time. It's a long time. I think I'd
45:48
run out before infinite, but I can push up against
45:52
that boundary. But it's just been a pleasure
45:55
to be able to listen to you. And I know we could
45:57
go on and touch on several more different topics
46:00
here. And maybe there's a chance for a future
46:02
episode to bring you back on again. Have me back
46:04
on. And we could do that. But we're running short
46:08
on our time here and I want to get us into our
46:10
lightning round that David and I do have the
46:13
program. So, you know, we'll kind of alternate
46:16
between some different questions here. You can,
46:19
for some of these, give a one -word answer. You
46:20
could elaborate to explain your point, but that's
46:24
up to you. So I'm going to kick it off here with
46:27
the first one here. And it's going to deal, some
46:29
of our mix of, you know, education or math or...
46:33
you know, professional related things and some
46:36
are more personal. So this first one here, and
46:38
maybe you were touching on it here, but I'll
46:40
give you a chance if you want to go a different
46:41
direction. What's one education myth that you
46:44
could make this if you could you would make disappear
46:46
overnight? Yeah, the test scores tell us a lot
46:49
about what kids are learning. Mm hmm. OK, this
46:54
one's a personal one. A book, podcast or series
46:58
that you are into right now that's not work related.
47:02
Yeah, recently finished Jill Lepore's We the
47:04
People. about the history of our U .S. Constitution
47:07
and the fact that it was expressly designed and
47:11
anticipated to be amended frequently and how
47:14
hard it's become to amend it. Yeah, 27 times
47:18
in all of our history and two of them cancel
47:21
each other out and 10 of them all came in at
47:24
one time. Clustering around when we're in the
47:27
middle of a right after a war of all things,
47:29
it takes a war to get us to rethink the ground
47:31
rules. But the Constitution is in my book as
47:36
the ultimate defining algorithm of our nation,
47:39
which is what it is. Yeah. What's one lesson
47:43
from venture capital that applies directly to
47:46
classroom teaching? Yeah, you know, I think the
47:49
reason I'm different from most business people
47:51
get involved, most business people were CEOs
47:53
and CEOs goal role in life is to tell other people
47:57
what they have to do. A venture capitalist says,
47:59
what is it you want to do and how can I help
48:01
you? I would say help kids understand and articulate
48:06
their dreams and help them pursue it. What is
48:11
something people are usually surprised to learn
48:13
about you? After I gave my high school graduation
48:17
speech, at the end, grandmothers in the second
48:19
balcony were booing and went to school the next
48:22
day. They called the police to arrest me for
48:24
trespassing. I was any administration's nightmare
48:28
graduation speaker. Well, one of the questions
48:33
we ask everyone is, you know, David and I, we're
48:35
going to host a conference tomorrow and you're
48:38
going to be our keynote speaker. And as you're
48:41
walking out onto that stage to meet that group
48:43
full of teachers, that's going to be in your
48:45
audience. What's your keynote walkup song going
48:48
to be? Oh, that's a good question. Maybe the
48:57
Sam Cooke don't know much about history, don't
49:00
know much biology. So we'll go with the Sam Cooke
49:03
song. What a wonderful world, I think. Yeah.
49:06
By the way, David puts together a Spotify playlist
49:10
of all of our guest responses. So that's going
49:13
to get added to it. I think that's the first
49:15
time we've heard that one. Maybe the first Sam
49:17
Cooke. Yeah, that's the first Sam Cooke song.
49:20
But I wish there was more because I like Sam
49:22
Cooke a lot. Yeah, it's pretty awesome. Yeah.
49:25
So this is our last section here and it's just
49:28
rapid fire, this or that. You can only choose
49:30
one. So one has to stay, one has to go. Sudoku
49:34
or crossword puzzles? I'm gonna violate your
49:38
rules. In my first book, I said if they replaced
49:41
SATs, they'd have just as much predictive value
49:44
and it'd be a lot more fun. So both. Okay. Pencil,
49:49
paper, notes or a note -taking app? Definitely
49:52
pencil and paper. Okay, slide rule. or graphing
49:57
calculator? I've never had a graphing calculator
50:00
so slide rule we'll stick with that. Okay linear
50:03
growth or exponential growth? I'm into exponential
50:07
growth. Window seat or aisle seat? Oh I have
50:11
to go to the bathroom a lot so aisle seat always.
50:16
Jeremy and I can relate because we both have
50:17
a bum knee so we usually have to take the aisle
50:19
seat too so. First to leave the party or last
50:23
one to be kicked out? Oh, probably first to not
50:27
even go to the party. So definitely first to
50:29
leave. I'm very introverted. Ted, this has been
50:33
great having you on. We really appreciate you
50:35
giving some time and sharing your insights with
50:37
the audience. Before we do let you go, we want
50:41
to give you an opportunity to promote anything
50:43
that you have coming up. I know you've mentioned
50:44
a few things here already, but like, you know,
50:47
things that people can watch out for or, you
50:50
know, and or ways to get into contact with you
50:52
or if you want to. plug any of the like the upcoming
50:56
PBS, the multiple choice, you know, like, where
50:59
can people find those things? And where can they
51:01
get hold of you? Well, you if you go to my website,
51:04
which is easy to find Ted denturesmith .com links
51:07
to all these things, I would love for people
51:08
to buy the book aftermath. There's not a day
51:10
that goes by that I don't see something in the
51:12
headlines, where I say it's in the book. And
51:16
the book is the challenge for the book is as
51:19
soon as you say a book about math, that you guys
51:21
can relate. Most people say, no, thanks. But
51:24
it's intentionally in the style of Freakonomics.
51:27
And so there are almost no equations. I have
51:29
a great endorsement from Steve Levitt. And it's
51:32
really the ideas that matter with lots of examples
51:35
of how it affects your life. And so I think that
51:38
in five, six hours of reading it, and by the
51:41
way, I'm getting adults telling me I got it,
51:43
but then my 12 -year -old grabbed it. They're
51:46
reading it. Five or six hours of reading it,
51:49
I think you're ahead of anybody who's taken 2
51:51
,000 hours of high school math. And then the
51:54
film, Multiple Choice, which is out and it's
51:56
on PBS. We support community screenings with
52:00
it. I think it's an eye -opener. And so you can
52:03
either Google multiple choice, the film with
52:07
my name, you'll find the landing page for it.
52:09
Or we can put this in your show notes. But those
52:11
are two recent contributions. And then The organization
52:14
I founded, What School Could Be, has a whole
52:16
set of resources, including those for people
52:18
who really care about aligning what we ask kids
52:21
to do in school with what will help them later
52:23
in life. Yeah, and we'll definitely put links
52:27
to those that you mentioned here throughout the
52:29
program into the show notes. So once again, Ted,
52:31
thank you very much. I have to say this is one
52:34
party I do hate to leave. Good response. Excellent.
52:40
Thanks. Thanks for listening to Integrate This.
52:45
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52:50
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53:03
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53:07
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