Latest / Content, Briefly / Siege Media: Ross Hudgens' strategy for sustainable, healthy growth

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Siege Media: Ross Hudgens' strategy for sustainable, healthy growth · Content, Briefly

• 0:00
  We used to get a lot of people just pure link asks, and I feel like we get less of those. I have, like, a video on it. Normally, when people ask for link building versus content marketing,
• 0:10
  it's the wrong philosophy or business-- the business isn't doing well generally when I see that. So the good news is that's starting to kind of tailor off a little bit.
• 0:19
  I do think people are resonating with the just data-driven approach. I mean, why wouldn't they be? [upbeat music] Hey, and thanks for tuning in to another episode of Content Briefly.
• 0:32
  Today we've got Ross Hudgens, who's the founder and CEO of an agency called Siege Media. Siege has been around for 12 years this August, so Ross has been at this for a while.
• 0:41
  The company has more than 100 full-time employees. They're fully remote. It's actually a really remarkable story, just given all the chaos that this industry has been through over the last year and a half or so.
• 0:52
  Obviously, that affected Siege also, but they've come through it okay because they grew sustainably, built a healthy culture, did so many things right that are so easy to get wrong.
• 1:02
  And so Ross explains some of that, some of the growing pains they've been through. Talks about the origin story also. Just overall really appreciated his candidness and thoughtfulness.
• 1:11
  And then, of course, you get his take on kind of the broader SAS and content world, given that he gets to see and talk to a lot of different businesses. So really good stuff.
• 1:21
  As always, I really enjoyed this conversation, and I hope you do too. [upbeat music] This episode is brought to you by our friends at Verblio.
• 1:29
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• 2:31
  To learn more about their podcast production service, as well as their other adaptive content marketing services, check out minutia.com in the show notes. Hey, everybody.
• 2:39
  Jimmy from Superpath here today with Ross Hudgens, founder of Siege Media, an agency that I have long respected and followed. Read your content, watched your YouTube stuff.
• 2:50
  We have met before, but we haven't had the chance to record that so other people can learn about you and about Siege, so we'll get a chance to do that today.
• 2:57
  I have tons of questions for you, Ross, but maybe first, would you mind introducing yourself and tell us a little bit about Siege, too? Sure, yeah. Thanks for having me, Jimmy.
• 3:04
  I constantly reference your post on the blog as a library, not a public-- Well, that was your po-post, right? Yeah, yeah. I believe, yeah. Love that one.
• 3:12
  Still say blogs are libraries to this day, so a lot of respect- Love it... for you and as a content marketer. But to answer your question, uh, yeah, I'm Ross, founder, CEO of Siege Media.
• 3:22
  We're around a hundred people, fully remote content/SEO agency, primarily working in SAS, but also work in fintech and ecom consumer markets as well. Okay, cool. And you've been at this twelve years? Thirteen years?
• 3:36
  I mean, Siege's been around. Yeah. Yeah, we're getting gray. I'm getting some gray. Uh, twelve. Twelve in August, actually, so just on that milestone. Okay, really cool.
• 3:45
  You know, one of the things I want to ask you about is, you know, what's the arc of Siege, you know? Like, well, I guess first, how did it start? Like, what's the origin story?
• 3:53
  But then, like, as content SEO have changed, which they've changed a lot over those years, have there been, like, seasons to Siege Media, where the focus ends up in different places? And then where are you today?
• 4:07
  I'm sorry, I'm asking you to talk about, like, you know, twelve years of your life in, like, a couple minutes. [laughs] But just like, yeah, how did you start?
• 4:13
  And then kinda like what's been-- what's the trajectory been like? Yeah, for sure.
• 4:17
  So the maybe most helpful thing for listeners potentially is I was in-house, and I was just hustling on the side, building my personal brand, and knew that would kinda result in something.
• 4:30
  So got a few clients on the side, had a boss that micromanaged me and decided to quit. I just-- I didn't like that, figured I'd give this thing a go and quit.
• 4:40
  And I was known for-- I was an SEO consultant, but also was a content writing major for a long time, became business. I say I sold out. So I was a decent writer.
• 4:51
  And then [chuckles] this thing called Google Penguin happened. I don't know how many listeners- Hell yeah... uh, remember it, but it was this big change in how Google valued links.
• 5:00
  So to your point about seasons, I saw the season changing, and that was also one thing I didn't like about what we were doing, or potentially gonna be doing, that we needed to do good content to generate the links that we needed.
• 5:12
  And that was a lot of the focus originally, was just pure links. And then over time realized, hey, we should be doing holistic, really good marketing, not just promoting infographics for links.
• 5:23
  So that became more of an emphasis. We got some great case studies, and then we actually were doing a ton of email outreach for a long, long time, and then I actually took a beat on that.
• 5:33
  It felt like links were a little less valued. Maybe that approach was not gonna be as helpful. Still had a few niche, in fintech specifically, clients, and that took a little pause for a year or two.
• 5:45
  Th-This brings us to about this year.
• 5:48
  I've had more of an aha recently to actually-- that this idea of, like, data first digital PR is actually more valuable than it ever has been with just the onset of AI, being differentiated,
• 6:03
  h-having content that's not the same as everything else on the search results. So it's almost-And we're not going quite back to where it was before, but we are thinking more about that kind of content.
• 6:14
  And so that's sort of, to your point, Jimmy, the season we're in right now. And that's really interesting. Is-- What are your customers asking about, and how has that changed recently?
• 6:23
  You know, like, are you sensing the same kinda maybe skepticism, I guess, about SEO, or at least kinda like, "Hey, let's get back to basics and not just chase keywords all the time," you know?
• 6:35
  Like, are those, are those questions, i- are they inbound, and then Siege is saying, "Okay, all right, there's obviously a trend here of our customers are asking this or that, or they want these things, so now we need to reconfigure our offerings"?
• 6:47
  Yeah, a little bit. I mean, we've been thinking more about the secondary value we generate. We need to be communicating that.
• 6:53
  If there is more AI overview traffic eating into what we do, like we just started the process of reporting referral direct traffic to the content sections we're creating a lot of content on.
• 7:06
  Like, that was a percentage of the pie we didn't even talk about previously. And that's sort of the thought process there is two-sided. One, give us-- clearly communicate the value of the full things we do.
• 7:18
  But two, that offers a diversification path in a world where search is a little smaller as a pie. If you do good content marketing, as you're well aware, like you are doing more than just an SEO driven thing. Sure.
• 7:29
  And hopefully that also helps us think that way. So I do think there's more of that. I mean, there's pe- we've always been known for SEO, so I can't say there's pessimism. And there was nervousness.
• 7:41
  I think more executive questions came of like, "What's gonna happen with this AI overview, and what does the future look like?"
• 7:48
  But I think once we got over that initial release of those overviews and it wasn't the apocalypse, does feel like things are picking up a little.
• 7:55
  Whether it's directly that or maybe the economy getting a little better, I- I'm not quite sure, but maybe a little of both. Yeah, for sure. For sure.
• 8:02
  I feel like there was this wave of like, "Oh my gosh, SEO is gonna go away," and now it was-- there was this really beautiful silver lining to that, which is that it seems like a lot of folks are just kinda getting back to basics.
• 8:15
  You know, it's like, "Well, we can be discovered in search if we just write good content," instead of, I think, the over-indexing on playing the game, the SEO game, you know?
• 8:25
  Like, if we're not all just chasing the A+ in Clearscope all the time. [laughs] A very helpful tool, but...
• 8:30
  And I have a lot of respect for Bernard and the team there, but there is this other element of like, if you just make it good on its own, you know, like that's gonna get you found in search and other places. Agreed.
• 8:39
  I mean, that-- Also love Bernard and Clearscope, especially valuable in B2B tech SaaS, but we'll often say it's, it's actually good to be like A- or even B+ optimized if you're truly solving for users.
• 8:53
  And hopefully that, that wave of the user experience will carry you to what is a true A+, especially over time. Yeah. Yeah. What does the average customer engagement look like?
• 9:02
  I mean, is everybody getting content, SEO, strategy, reporting? Are there other elements like, uh, multimedia or anything else?
• 9:10
  That's something we're doing more of, whether it's a industry change or just something we're just doing more, uh, I can't say for sure in terms of just trying to add more revenue streams.
• 9:20
  But we are doing more SEO consulting than we did in the past. Uh, we brought on great leader Jesse McDonald from IBM, um, so that was part of that push for sure.
• 9:29
  But we're now doing more of that kind of consultative deliverable. And we are doing outreach in that product-led digital PR more than we had been in the last two years.
• 9:41
  So more of that outreach, more of the things that maybe you couldn't just go straight to a freelancer and do because of relationships- Yeah... we have and things like that are also some of our thought process.
• 9:51
  Like, there is, speaking of your seasons, like I think in some ways we were lucky or had good timing of kind of riding the wave up of this industry growing, and now there is a lot more competition.
• 10:03
  I think a lot got washed out in the last year or so for sure, but it's more competitive out there for content services on average. Definitely. Definitely. Okay, so you mentioned you have 100 people, or more than 100.
• 10:17
  I was on the website- Approximately 100. Yeah. Okay, yeah.
• 10:19
  I was on the website before I got on this call on the About page, and I just kept scrolling and scrolling and scrolling, and I thought, "There's a lot of people here. You're bigger than I thought."
• 10:28
  [laughs] You know what I mean? In terms of headcount, quite a bit larger than I thought, actually. I have been at a fast-growing agency. It was very chaotic, a lot of difficult things, you know.
• 10:39
  Actually, I don't know, I could probably name five or six agencies off the top of my head right now that have downsized significantly over the past year, year and a half.
• 10:48
  I would love to know more about the growth of Siege. You know, I mean, obviously there's the demand, right? Capturing the demand, but building the team, the operations.
• 10:57
  Again, this is like almost too big of a question to throw at you all at once, but like- [laughs]... what has that been like? How have you managed to scale the company in a healthy way?
• 11:06
  A lot of credit goes to our COO, Melissa Holmes. She's very strong and really helped us kind of slow down and helped me slow down. I think my problem as a founder is I would go in,
• 11:19
  fix fires like in five seconds, and, and similarly I'd be like, "Let's start this client tomorrow. Can we start it tomorrow?"
• 11:26
  And she'll say, "For the health of the team, for the, the client experience to be good, we need to take 10 business days from contract signing to do that."
• 11:35
  And like little small things like that and giving us pace to our process has been, has been really helpful. And I think it is very difficult to like rocket ship grow an agency.
• 11:46
  I, I was telling you before we started recording that I have yet to see that not eventually go poorly just because the people dynamics are, as everyone is aware, it's just so difficult to scale that.
• 11:58
  And one of the problems with that scale beyond just putting the nuts and bolts together is you end up promoting people ahead of like when they're ready to be promoted a lot in that dynamic. Yeah.
• 12:08
  So you end up with like managers and directors that are23 and maybe 23 managers, okay, but you get what I'm saying. It's, it... You get ahead of your skis, and eventually that breaks down normally. Yeah.
• 12:21
  Uh, were you remote prior to COVID? We were remote friendly. Okay. So it was a very natural transition that we made that choice pretty quickly. Okay. Got it. Got it.
• 12:32
  B- what I was sort of getting at is the culture, right? Like, 100 people, a company of that size has to have culture in order to,
• 12:41
  I mean, just keep everyone on the same page, but hopefully, like, you know, attract people who share the same values as you and the leadership team.
• 12:48
  How much effort have you put into that over the last 12 years, and is that still something that you talk about pretty actively? Uh, for sure. I- and it's, it's always a work in progress.
• 12:59
  We've got a g- another thing our, our team has worked on. We have something called a people experience team. So we'll kind of do light things to just create engagement.
• 13:09
  It has been harder to bring people together when you have 100. It's just hard to scale that idea. Yeah.
• 13:15
  So we just, we haven't, transparently, but we've done micro meetups in each location where people come together, there's a conference, things of that nature.
• 13:23
  But that people experience team has been helpful, having people own that process, and I think we probably similarly, there's some luck maybe to having an established culture that transitioned into that remote environment.
• 13:39
  Oh, y- yeah, for sure. That maybe would not have gone as well in the reverse.
• 13:43
  Like, we have a lot of legacy people that are still with us that were part of that, that in person, so they kind of get it and bring it forward. Yeah. Which probably helps. Yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting.
• 13:54
  I [laughs] it's funny, uh, just thinking about, like, it was probably like 2015 maybe when, like, company retreats were, like, a huge deal,
• 14:02
  and every SaaS company would write blog posts with the pictures, and then, like, Buffer would rent out, like, an Olympic Village because they couldn't find anywhere else to house all these people.
• 14:10
  Like, that seems to have all gone by the wayside. [laughs] Sounds like fun, but that doesn't seem like people really do that anymore.
• 14:17
  Kind of going back to the remote thing, you know, I can definitely imagine, like, okay, you're re- kind of remote friendly and then forcing remote.
• 14:23
  That's, like, a huge advantage given that, like, everyone was sort of forced to some degree to go remote during the pandemic. Were there some unexpected speed bumps, I guess?
• 14:32
  You know, like, as you were making that transition, just kind of like getting everybody using the same tools or more documentation or different meeting schedule, things like that. Y- yes.
• 14:43
  So there was a segment of people that wanted to be in-house or in person, and we lost those people. It wasn't a huge number, but they were there, and, um, that was part of it.
• 14:52
  And then you hit on a very important transition.
• 14:55
  I forget what initially triggered my excitement around it, and the original, like, one of the first really well-known remote companies just had a whole, like, wiki of documentation.
• 15:07
  And we had done it all in person previously, and there was just some moment where we just sprinted towards learning and development and building a ton of process documents and videos, and now we have a training library with hundreds upon hundreds of documents.
• 15:22
  Maybe too many documents, but we ha- also have now at our size, someone owning learning and development. Actually, two amazing people that are doing that at Siege. So that's been super helpful
• 15:34
  and, uh, kind of building that process and consistency, which you just had to have as a remote company. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting.
• 15:42
  I feel like, at least in my experience, the biggest challenge of, you know, being part of a quickly growing agency was the solution was documentation in many cases.
• 15:51
  The problem was just that the element of scale is people, so there's just this lot of variables, right? You know, it's not like we're gonna hire a bunch of people to all grow one software product.
• 16:00
  They're gonna hire a bunch of people, they'll be client-facing, they'll be making decisions. You know, they'll be doing work in a certain way or not, depending on [laughs] whether or not you train them to do it that way.
• 16:09
  It was just so much harder than I thought to get everybody on the same page, write it down, train people.
• 16:16
  You know, but ultimately, like, over time, becomes in some ways, like, the bedrock of the business if people is your growth vector. Yeah. Agreed. And you made me think of something I didn't mention.
• 16:26
  I'm, like, those were some of the tips, some things that, I mean, we haven't, like, hopefully we get back to hiring more often, but when we were in a similar very sharp growth period, we'd have, like hi- we would only hire five people at a time.
• 16:40
  It'd be, like, a cohort that was all our learning development director could handle and, like, be tailored to do. So there'd be cohorts of five every single month, and we'd kind of cycle through that.
• 16:52
  And you can imagine how if you just let everyone through the gates, like, all that consistency of onboarding is pretty brutal. And- Yeah...
• 17:00
  her being the point of contact that says the exact same things over and over solved for manager inconsistencies, which were inevitable.
• 17:08
  So that's been some of the, I think, maybe it's not secret sauce, but helpful things that's, that's worked. Yeah. Yeah. How about your role?
• 17:16
  What does your role look like today, and how has that changed over the last couple years? Yeah. It's a good question. I'm constantly trying to become more of a CEO than I have been. My
• 17:28
  weakness, as many probably founders, are getting too in the weeds, and that's kind of enables you to scale. So I try to think of a few things each quarter that are big picture ideas that we can implement.
• 17:42
  Melissa, our COO, tells me we can only do one normally. That's kind of how it goes [laughs] as part of this as well. So that's kind of the, the staggering.
• 17:51
  I'm definitely doing a lot of marketing, big customer relationship stuff is a big part of my, my work. I still do a lot of sales.
• 17:58
  I was just on a proposal call, but we've got a great director of business development now as well. So I'm really just kind of the pinch hitter now rather than the full-time person.
• 18:07
  So, but I'm still really enjoying strategy, so I'm paying attention.Checking in on those things, bringing new thoughts to the team. So still, still hopefully in the weeds, but the right amount in the weeds, hope- Yeah.
• 18:19
  Yeah... we'll see. Yeah. Nice. That's cool. You know, one thing, sort of going back to the origin story, you know, this comes up a lot in the Slack community. Freelancers who talk about what's next for me.
• 18:30
  Like, if I don't wanna be a freelancer for my whole career, what are my options? One of those options is to see if you can drum up more demand and start subcontracting the work and maybe build an agency one day.
• 18:44
  Easier said than done, obviously. [chuckles] And the question I wanna ask you is, do you remember the first time that you had
• 18:51
  too much demand or more, more demand than you could handle yourself, and what it was like to get somebody else to come and help you do that work? Yes.
• 19:02
  Uh, pretty vividly my thought process was, what is the thing I should most outsource of what I'm doing? And then at that time, this is not legal advice, but I started with just, like, a part-time contractor.
• 19:15
  I think when you're smaller, we have very few contractors today, it's almost all full-time people at Siege. That's more o-okay to do, and you take a little less risk giving, like, 20 hours to somebody.
• 19:28
  That should be feasible, and if you're local, you could handhold that person. They don't-- You might be able to build more of a relationship.
• 19:35
  Like, my first full-time person, Brian Vu, was amazing, and I don't know if that was coincidence or just because we worked together so closely, but he started just 20 hours, and it was just kind of a, a threshold.
• 19:48
  I subleased someone's office that I knew, and that relationship helped.
• 19:53
  So yeah, I don't know if that answer helps necessarily, but I had built up a little bit of cash reserve, not any wild amount, and started to just get enough demand that I could make that jump to the part-time contractor, which worst case scenario- Yeah...
• 20:07
  you move on. Um, you're not paying them health insurance. It's probably a r... for most people that are just content agencies, they could find someone with some hustle that wants to grow their career
• 20:19
  that hopefully is- Yeah... not too much risk. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's really interesting. I think there's a real opportunity for freelancers out there to create what I would maybe call, like, a micro agency.
• 20:30
  You know, like, there's not many agencies that are gonna scale to 100 people, but I think there's lots of small agencies that could scale to three or five people and be great businesses for the folks who found them.
• 20:42
  And while maybe that's not as exciting or romantic, I think that's, like, a very realistic goal for a freelancer. So anyways, kind of going down a, a little bit of a rabbit hole there.
• 20:53
  The other thing I wanted to ask you about is, one reason I love having agency founders on this podcast is because they have a very broad view of what's happening right now, whereas the in-house folks, they, you know, they have, like, this very, uh, sort of acute awareness of what's happening at their company right now.
• 21:07
  The agency founder can see a lot more. So there's sort of two questions here. One is, are you noticing any red flags? Like, you know, as prospects come in the door, they, you know, they want this service or that.
• 21:19
  Like, are you noticing that, um, people are asking for what you believe maybe is the wrong thing, you know?
• 21:25
  And then on the opposite side of that, are there green flags where folks are coming in and asking for things they haven't asked for before that you think like, "Yes, this is what we should be doing"? Yeah, good question.
• 21:37
  So starting on the red flag, you make me think, which maybe is not pertinent to all your audience, but we used to get a lot of people just pure link asks, and I feel like we get less of those.
• 21:47
  And they were always, I o- I have like a video on it. Normally, when people ask for link-building versus content marketing, it's the wrong philosophy or business isn't doing well generally when I see that.
• 21:58
  So the good news is that's starting to kind of tailor off a little bit. I do think people are resonating with the just data-driven approach. I mean, why wouldn't they be?
• 22:06
  It's just we have kind of figured out a process to make that work a little bit more. Uh, y- I mean, you get questions about AI. I don't think it's been, like, too heavy-handed.
• 22:15
  We tend to work mid-market to enterprise, so they understand this is competitive, it needs to be really good stuff. I mean, there's price sensitivity for sure out there.
• 22:25
  I think it's been starting to tick up, like, we're in July 2024, we're feeling positive after kind of just stability was our...
• 22:34
  Hopefully, we felt really good about being flat in the last year or so, and hopefully it's ticking up.
• 22:39
  And that was-- I think I was telling you before the call, like, seeing past the AI overview event, and maybe th-there's the hit, and it's probably gonna keep coming in terms of what they roll out, but I think a lot of paranoia, understandably so, came from that rollout.
• 22:54
  Sure. And it feels like a lot of the gates, especially with rate cuts hopefully coming September, will... I don't think it'll ever be the fervor of 2020, but we should hopefully expect some growth again. Yeah.
• 23:06
  Yeah, for sure. Those were good times. I wish I had appreciated them more [chuckles] when they were happening. Yeah. Yeah.
• 23:12
  The AI thing is so interesting because, yeah, I feel like we went through this phase of like, okay, ChatGPT comes out, every CMO in the world was like, "We don't need a content team, this is only $20 a month." Yeah.
• 23:21
  And it's like, you know, 60% is good. But now it's like then we went through this phase of, like, total fatigue, and everyone was like, "Wait, all we can do is find small efficiencies in our content workflows?
• 23:31
  Like, I can't..." You know what I mean? It's, like, not gonna replace us. And now I feel like we're getting to this healthier spot of like, of course, you should use AI. You know, like, why wouldn't you use it?
• 23:40
  But like, let's be smart about it. Let's use it in a thoughtful way.
• 23:44
  Like, let's still try to differentiate the content, make it true to the brand, like, make it worth reading, and if we can save ourselves some time, then, then great, let's do that.
• 23:52
  That could be completely blown up six months from now, depending on how the technology changes, I guess. [chuckles] I mean, I think that's correct. I think that'll be the way it goes.
• 24:01
  I mean, we're just thinking of, like, keep an eye on it. We've been using it for editing, line and grammar editing, qualitative checks now. It's almost like a secondary SME. Definitely- Oh, nice...
• 24:12
  keyword research speedups. Yeah. Um, just very briefly starting to test some writing.
• 24:18
  Uh, like, like maybe super long tail of topics we would have never gotten to, it could be worth exploring for some clients, but we have clients with some real risk there.To their brand if it's done in- improperly, but- Sure...
• 24:30
  I've heard some good things about Claude and the like, so yeah, we need to get out. We have to pay attention to it, I think, as an industry- For sure... for sure, or get left behind. Yeah. Yeah.
• 24:41
  I was just talking to a content marketer, uh, just the other day about how they were using Claude to run a programmatic SEO playbook, right? So it's like they identify...
• 24:51
  It was like a comparison style content of, like, thing A versus thing B, thing A versus thing C, thing B versus thing... That type of thing, and then, like, Claude was writing it, and it was...
• 25:01
  I mean, if you're gonna do 5,000 of those- Yeah... AI is fantastic, and it's, like, just as good as if you're gonna pay somebody $20 a page or whatever to write it. True. Yes, anyways, yeah, agree. Keep an eye on it.
• 25:13
  Cool stuff. Anything going on at Siege these days that you wanna talk about that I have failed to ask you about? Uh, good question. In terms of what I can talk about right now, probably not, but we'll...
• 25:26
  Yeah, I mean, I think things are getting better. That might be the optimistic view that a lot of your listeners might wanna hear is, like, I, I feel more optimism generally.
• 25:34
  Things are generally picking up, feeling that across the market, and we're still not out of the trough yet, so the fact that a lot of that paranoia, I think, has subsided a little bit, even if people have some concerns, I think it is a positive thing.
• 25:50
  So we're, we're kinda going with that, and, you know, a lot of your listeners are more kind of holistically minded than purely SEO like us, but, uh, I do think thinking organically, thinking broader than just SEO, which many people are doing, is just the critical thing and more, more of what we're doing today.
• 26:08
  Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Cool. You know, I... My, my view is not as broad as yours. Like, certainly not as many customers, but it's representative. Like, I feel many of the same things that you're describing.
• 26:19
  Like, that really resonates, and I'm feeling, yeah, just more hopeful and a little more calm than I've felt in a long time, you know? I no longer feel like we're at some huge risk of the whole thing just going away.
• 26:31
  Like, it's evolving, obviously, and there's actually maybe a fun component to it, too, not just all, it's all scared us. So anyways. Hopefully not the intro- Yeah, yeah.
• 26:42
  I was gonna say, uh, then we als- I don't think it'll share, shake anything, but it, it will probably.
• 26:47
  It's like, of course, we get through that whole thing, and we have an election coming up in the US, so that'll probably- Yeah, it should be fun [laughs]... cause more concern and paranoia, so- Yeah...
• 26:56
  that's the next thing to be afraid of, so. [laughs] Totally. Totally. Cool. Hey, Ross, thanks so much for coming on. Seriously, it's awesome to chat. Like I said, followed your stuff for a long time, you know.
• 27:06
  I think I actually probably first discovered you and Siege through the YouTube videos, so I don't know, maybe bring that back one day. I thought, like, the in-person interviews were really cool.
• 27:15
  Anyways, I followed you ever since and really value your, your take on things and appreciate you taking the time. Yeah.
• 27:21
  Thanks for coming on, Jimmy, and, uh, I, I extend an invite to you to come on our podcast and maybe s- search content and conversation in, in a month, and we'll have Jimmy return the favor.
• 27:31
  Unfortunately, not in person, but, uh, hopefully a version close to it. Yeah, yeah. Count me in. Sounds like fun. Awesome. Thanks, Ross. We'll point everybody, uh, in the show notes to Siege.
• 27:40
  They can go check it out, read the blog, check out services, all that good stuff. So check the link in the show notes, and we'll talk to you soon, Ross. Thank you. Take care. [outro music]