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Why is learning at work so bad & how do we fix it with AI? · In The Loop

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  If you've been listening to In the Loop every single week,
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  you'll know that we have quite high quality standards.
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  We spend a lot of time trying to find the perfect episode, the
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  best way of telling the story, and we really care about the
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  production. Today, that means trying
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  something new. This is going to be our first
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  ever interview, and honestly, I hope you're going to love it.
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  I got to speak to somebody who spent 25 years trying to fix
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  what can only be described as a broken system that fails
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  millions of people every single day.
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  And getting to sit down with her to dig into her story and her
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  beliefs was so much fun. She's an expert in the topic.
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  She's a fantastic speaker and an author, and it's the exact type
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  of conversations that I want to bring you more of.
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  I'm Jack Horton, and this is in the Leap.
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  Today I'm investigating a question that affects every
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  working person. Who decided this is learning and
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  why hasn't AI fixed it yet? Picture this it's Monday
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  morning. Sarah, a customer service
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  manager at a Fortune 500 company, just woke up to learn
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  that she has to complete her digital communications best
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  practice course by tomorrow morning. 45 minutes of clicking
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  through slides about not sharing inappropriate photos into a
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  company slide channel. Meanwhile, another company just
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  down the road has implemented an AI system that handles 60% of
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  all customer support enquiries in six months.
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  Sarah's job may not even exist, but hey, at least she's
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  compliant. This isn't hypothetical.
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  This is happening at companies across the world.
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  Whilst the largest workforce transformation in human history
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  unfolds around us, AI systems are already writing code,
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  diagnosing diseases, creating and making decisions that used
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  to require entire teams of people.
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  We're in what experts called the great upskill.
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  We need to rapidly train people to do things machines can't.
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  Creative problem solving, emotional intelligence, complex
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  reasoning and decision making skills.
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  Yet the very thing that should be helping people succeed is
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  currently failing most people. That's learning.
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  Specifically, learning at work. Companies spend hundreds of
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  billions of dollars on global training every single year.
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  That's more than the GDP of some countries.
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  And yet when was the last time you took a workplace training
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  course that you actually found helpful, that felt relevant to
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  your challenges, and that made you demonstrably better at what
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  you do? Research has shown that most
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  training is forgotten within 24 hours.
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  To understand this crisis, I spoke to someone who'd been
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  inside the system. Someone who's not just witnessed
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  all the dysfunction, but who'd lived, breathed it, and spent
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  her career trying to fix it, and came across the solution from a
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  very unlikely place, A hospital emergency room, a bottle of
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  vodka, and a moment of panic at 30,000 feet.
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  This is the story of how workplace learning got broken
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  and how we might be able to fix it with AI.
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  To finances. I spoke to Laurie Hoffman, who
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  sent 25 years in educational technology, working as a chief
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  learning officer at major cororations and advising some of
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  the biggest companies in the entire world on how to deliver
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  great learning experiences. I think there's a number of
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  reasons. If you look at early e-learning
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  and I'll focus on the digital type of content, early
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  e-learning was really about compliance.
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  So it was all thou shalt do this, thou shalt not do this.
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  So it was written in such an artificial way.
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  There wasn't any storytelling. And so people kind of had that
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  dread when they went into it the very first time because they
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  knew what it was going to be, right?
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  It wasn't going to be engaging, It wasn't going to be anything
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  of interest. And basically what they were
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  effectively reading was not even learning.
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  It was a legal document to protect the company.
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  A legal document not working. And when I did a little bit more
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  digging, I found that Once Upon a time in the 1950s, you'd learn
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  through apprenticeships. You'd be working alongside
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  masters, getting real time feedback and practising skills
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  in context. And now picture corporate
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  learning today. Lots of boring videos that are
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  very rarely helpful. This shift happened gradually,
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  then incredibly fast. In the 1990s, companies started
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  moving training online to save costs.
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  And then, as corporate scandals like Enron and Worldcom wiped
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  billions off the market, new laws made compliance legally
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  required. Suddenly the primary purpose of
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  corporate training shifted from developing people to protecting
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  companies from lawsuits. So what started as a cost saving
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  measure became a legal necessity.
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  And legal necessities, once embedded in corporate
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  bureaucracy, become really difficult to change.
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  So the company says, well Jack read this.
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  So therefore you know, tick mark Jack will not launder money.
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  That is, that is essentially what what it was doing for, for
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  for one example. I think the second one is, is a
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  lot of people that get into corporate learning actually
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  don't know learning. They have gone through school in
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  some way, shape or form and creates this this fallacy that
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  because they've gone through school, they automatically know
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  how learning works. And they have, quote UN quote, a
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  passion for learning. And, and you know, I have a
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  passion for brain surgery, but you wouldn't allow me to ever
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  perform that on anyone living or probably even expired.
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  I think one of the worst ones I ever had to do was the company
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  was launching an internal tool that at the time was very
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  similar to Slack and Yammer. But before this, before those
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  tools were ubiquitous and it was not an e-learning on how to use
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  the tools. It was basically all the things
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  you could and could not say basically how to be in general a
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  good human being. And it even had things in it
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  like please do not share photos that depict people without
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  clothes on. And I thought, well, I mean,
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  this surely does not need to be an e-learning.
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  This has to be just a simple code of conduct.
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  About 45 minutes. People had to go through that.
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  And what ended up happening is everyone was afraid to even use
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  the tool because the rules got so ridiculous and it was came
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  down to you can't tag more than three people and just just
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  stupid stuff. I think Laura's example
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  perfectly illustrates this focus on compliance over developing
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  people, launching internal communication tools, something
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  that should encourage collaboration, but then made
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  people watch 45 minute courses that were so restrictive that
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  people feared even using the system.
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  The resistance isn't to development, it's to
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  dysfunction. But I wanted to know, why are we
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  still stuck in this same place? Then a big part of the answer
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  lies and something that most people have never heard of, that
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  controls almost all corporate learning across the world, and
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  it's called SCORM. So SCORM is this funny little
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  piece of technology that used to be really relevant.
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  It's called a shared content object.
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  Basically is is is is what is what it is.
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  And it used to be that mod learning was for compliance.
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  So you needed to be able to prove that.
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  OK, Jack took this hour long course.
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  He passed the test at over 80%. We know what he questions he got
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  right and wrong. We know the date he did it on.
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  Yay, all good. And we send that to the
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  regulators. OK, so with Jack does something
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  wrong, we can pull that and say, well, clearly you know, it
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  wasn't our fault because he passed the module.
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  Now that's that's old school learning, but that's what we
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  used to have in like 2000, OK. So SCORM is this technical
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  standard, basically a set of rules about how e-learning
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  should be packaged up and delivered to people, and it was
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  created in the early 2000s with only one goal, compliance
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  trucking. But what SCORM does is SCORM
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  became the package that all learning had to be in, in order
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  for it to be interpreted and understood by a learning
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  management system. But what SCORM does not do is
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  also take into account suspended data.
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  What do I mean by that? Well, if you backtrack in a
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  module or if you do a branching exercise or if you only watch a
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  portion of a video or if you're learning something that isn't on
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  the learning management system, say you go, you see something on
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  Slack and what not that may not even track as part of your,
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  your, your learning learning Canon.
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  And so as a result of that, we, we got locked into this.
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  Click next to continue type. And there's, I feel for
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  instructional designers and and learning experience designers
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  because there's only so much you can do with that.
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  There really is only so much you can do and that, but that's how
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  we ended up with the drag and drop and that's how we ended up
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  with those really boring things because that's all we could do.
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  So there's the problem, Scorn became the dominant standard
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  that almost all these learning management systems.
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  So the software that companies used to deliver training was
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  historically built around. That's a multi billion dollar
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  industry that had a financial incentive to maintain this
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  system. But this raises a bigger
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  question. If SCOM is so limiting, why
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  hasn't it been replaced? And why are we still stuck with
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  this 25 year old standard designed for compliance training
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  in an era where personalization and adaptation should be
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  possible? In an era where developing
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  people has become more important than ever.
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  Easy, easy answer to that money, right?
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  So if you think about what marketing is doing, it's
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  generating leads, it's generating interest and
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  engagement with a product that's ultimately going to lead to a
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  sale. And there's a much, much, much
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  larger pool of people that you are say tempted to, to reach out
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  to. If say you are a company that
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  makes trainers, right? I mean, you're going to just
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  say, yes, I absolutely will pay to get a, a million, you know,
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  ads or whatever to, to, you know, to target ads to people.
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  And because that's what you do as a, as a company, right?
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  Learning. The reason it is a slower thing
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  or was because things are changing is because even if you
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  think of software manufacturers and you think of where the
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  revenue is, it's not in somebody doing a learning course, right,
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  because there's nothing that they're buying at the end of it.
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  In other words, there's not a financial incentive to innovate
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  in learning in the same way as marketing or sales technology.
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  Marketing technology advanced so rapidly because targeting and
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  personalization directly translated into more sales.
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  And, well, where's the ROI of helping someone learn better?
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  But the problem is, is AI and I'm using that as a as a
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  vernacular. OK, so you know, when I say AI,
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  because I'm trying not to mention specific tools, they're
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  not going to be able to break into that.
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  It's not going to be in a digestible format for them and
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  they're probably going to be looking for, say, the script.
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  And it's really hard to keep those scripts up to date because
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  anytime you make even a micro change, you've got to go back
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  and update all of them, reload all that, sort of.
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  Stuff. Not only are we stuck with
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  SCORM, a 25 year old learning idea, but modern systems can't
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  actually help us escape it because AI can't read that
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  format. It's like being trapped in this
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  digital time capsule. So that's the other barrier for
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  content to be able to be ingested and put into
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  essentially A rag that can't combines knowledge management
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  and L&D content. So it's kind of like you're
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  going to have L&D speaks German, but knowledge management speaks
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  French and the agent only speaks or coach only speaks French.
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  So we'd only be able to pull from one.
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  That's kind of the kind of the analogy there.
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  The irony is almost painful. We're living in an age where AI
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  could transform learning experiences.
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  But for AI to understand the information, it must be able to
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  understand scorn, but it can't actually ingest all of that
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  information and do anything with it.
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  So this is the real villain of the story, a technical standard
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  that's holding an industry hostage.
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  Luckily, Laurie has discovered something that could change
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  everything, and it came from an unexpected place.
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  Now Laurie's about to tell you a story that involves airport
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  vodka and a medical emergency. And while it might seem like a
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  detour, the story contains the key to understanding how we have
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  to be able to fix learning. So what happened was I'm afraid
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  of flying. I was in North Carolina and I
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  had to take a small plane and I mean small like 1212 seater type
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  tiny little plane from Raleigh, NC, Toronto and there was going
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  to be storms. So I was absolutely not happy.
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  So don't judge me. I looked around for some place I
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  could have a glass of wine. Well I was informed that there
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  is actually no bar in that wing of the airport.
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  So I said, well, I'll go to the duty free and I bought myself
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  again, please don't judge. It was desperate times.
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  I bought myself of course the leader bottle that they sell it
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  duty free. They don't sell the small ones
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  of vodka. And I thought, well, I'll just
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  make a little drink. And the the gentleman said to
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  me, we don't get this till you land.
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  We can't give it to you now. It's like, So what ended up
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  happening was I told the the woman at the the gate, I
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  explained I'm afraid of flying. And she said, OK, look, I'm
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  going to tell you as soon as the your plane lands, you're going
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  to run to the other terminal, have a drink of a glass of wine
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  and come back and I will get you on this plane.
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  And I said, OK, fine. She goes, OK, plane landed.
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  She looked at me. She's like, go, I run to the
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  other terminal, run outside, go through, get a glass of wine,
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  come back and I get on the plane.
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  It's AI survived. Obviously it was terrible,
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  right? But anyway, the point of the
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  story was when I went to get off the plane, I was so tense from
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  the flight that I wrenched my back and I threw my back out,
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  taking out my luggage and that what they had to do was put me
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  on a wheelchair and push me through the airport.
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  At this point, I'm crying. My you know, my mascara is
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  running. And what happened was, is the
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  guy from the airplane runs up to me.
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  He can smell alcohol in my breath and he hands me my leader
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  size bottle of vodka and that's how I was clutching it and being
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  wheeled through Toronto Pearson but.
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  The story doesn't just end there.
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  What happened next will completely change how Lori
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  thought about learning the. Point is, is my husband then
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  because I couldn't move, everything seized up.
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  I had to go to the hospital and that was where I saw the the
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  process that happens when you go into an A&E.
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  So you weren't seen by a nurse right away.
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  In fact, there was a kiosk and it asks you certain questions.
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  Are you experiencing heart palpitations?
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  Do you have chest pain? Are you running a fever?
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  Where have you traveled? This was even pre COVID.
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  It did take my blood pressure. There was a cuff that I could
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  use to take my blood pressure. It asks me, are you conscious?
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  I'm like clearly I am if I've done all these other things.
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  But that triage was what then went to the nurse and it decided
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  who got to be seen by that intake nurse first.
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  Then what happened is that they looked at everybody that was
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  sitting in the, the A&E and it determined who was going to go
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  first based on their urgency, based on also what specialties
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  doctors they had available that had time.
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  You weren't seen in the order you appeared.
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  You were seen according to the severity of of of your injuries
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  and what need to be treated right away and what you had
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  resources for. If you flip that into learning,
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  what's you need to look at is that if you took all of your
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  learning requests and put them in order, you're essentially
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  making somebody who might be having a heart attack wait while
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  somebody who maybe has a splinter.
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  You don't get seen first and that's not effective.
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  It's not using your resources effectly.
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  It's not helping the business. This is the fundamental insight
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  into how you could revolutionize workplace learning.
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  Right now, most corporate learning experiences operate
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  like a fast food restaurant. Everyone gets the same thing in
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  the same order. But what I was if it could
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  operate like an emergency room, personalized and prioritize and
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  optimize for real need. But we still face that problem
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  of the world of learning being built around SCORM compliance
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  and having this annual planning cycle around learning that makes
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  agility almost impossible. Because of the way that L&D is
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  set up and typically what happens in an in a learning
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  company and I'm talking about enterprise.
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  So for any listeners who are, you know, working more in a
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  medium sized or especially a small size, you will probably be
• 16:14
  a lot more agile than this because you haven't had to deal
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  with, with this type of this type of structure.
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  But in an enterprise company and you know that's maybe dealing
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  with 50,000 employees, what they do is they set budget at the
• 16:26
  beginning of the year and say, OK, this is what we're going to
• 16:29
  build. And and I call it the bun fight.
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  What happens is all the business partners come in, you sit in a
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  room and everybody gives like their magic list of what they
• 16:36
  would like to have built that year that will help them.
• 16:39
  And you do this. And then the business signs off
• 16:42
  and says, OK, and I will give you this amount of budget and
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  your performance reviews are going to be based on whether you
• 16:48
  hit the targets for those those numbers or whether you did not.
• 16:51
  Picture this playing out across the entire organization in
• 16:54
  January. You're having to plan what
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  skills people are going to need for December, and by the time
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  December arrives, those skills might be completely irrelevant
• 17:02
  because the world changed, but you've already spent money on
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  SCORM courses. I mean, the one that I tell in
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  the book was, was a, was a bank that when we just put in a
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  central intake. So this would be that kiosk, you
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  know, where everyone goes through that, that we had at
• 17:17
  A&E. We just put in a simple like
• 17:19
  intake form saying if you're doing anything in learning, just
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  fill this out and let us know what you're working on.
• 17:23
  And we discovered 17 learning units because it was like a
• 17:27
  global financial institution. 17 units were building agile
• 17:31
  learning courses and the cost was astronomical. 1 was an IT
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  specific version because that operates a little bit
• 17:38
  differently. And the other one was a general
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  version that they push out from global.
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  So we got rid of 15 pieces of junk and and that duplication.
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  Also think about it downstream for that learner, they log into
• 17:49
  their learning management system, type in Agile and then
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  they'll get 17 versions. They don't know which one to
• 17:55
  choose. It's just so.
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  So we're not helping them either.
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  This is what the emergency room model could do for workplace
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  learning. Instead of everyone getting the
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  same generic course, people get what they actually need when
• 18:07
  they need it delivered by the right specialist in that moment.
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  But implementing that vision requires more than just changing
• 18:14
  processes. It requires technology and
• 18:17
  specifically AI. Learning is going to be most
• 18:31
  effective and and best when it is personalized to each
• 18:34
  individual. So I can't say this is the box
• 18:36
  that all learning should go into.
• 18:38
  And I think we tried to do that for a very long time.
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  We made learning very static and just the same for everyone goes
• 18:44
  through and they click next to continue.
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  What I'm looking at is really effective learning is is one
• 18:49
  that is hyper personalized to you what it is that it knows
• 18:53
  you, it knows what you're working on.
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  It knows how your day has been. It knows how many meetings
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  you've had it it knows what projects you're working on.
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  And it brings that in contextually to to actually be
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  applicable in in where you are. I think the other thing that
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  good learning does is that it is looking at impact and if there
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  there is no impact, it pivots the learning in ways that will
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  have impact. And so it's looking at what is
• 19:16
  actually successful. Now, this idea of
• 19:18
  personalisation gets thrown around a lot, but what does it
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  actually mean? What does it actually look like
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  in practice? I know a lot of people don't
• 19:27
  like the model, but Duolingo, if you look at how they use data
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  and how they use it to not only personalized, but make the
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  learning stickier and better, it's quite fascinating.
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  And in L&D, again, we're just giving a we're giving a static
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  course. I think also too, the thing with
• 19:43
  good learning is that it is getting you opportunities to
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  practice and reiterate and be able to connect with, say a
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  virtual coach who's going to look at how you're performing
• 19:53
  and it's evaluating and giving you bespoke feedback.
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  Not the, you know, you got that wrong, let's try again feedback,
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  but like actually hyper fixated and focused on what you are
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  doing and how that relates to say, a rubric that the company
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  would like you to perform to. All those things together are
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  what makes an important learning experience.
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  Imagine learning that understands your calendar or
• 20:16
  your current projects and adapts to your actual work context.
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  Instead of this generic course on communication skills, you get
• 20:22
  specific coaching on how to communicate with a difficult
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  stakeholder that you're meeting tomorrow.
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  This is this closed loop system that SCORM could never provide.
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  Learning that doesn't just track completion, but measures actual
• 20:35
  behaviour change and adapts accordingly.
• 20:37
  But Laurie goes even further. She envisions learning that
• 20:40
  breaks out of the traditional course format entirely.
• 20:43
  So the example that I, I gave in the book was, OK, you go on to a
• 20:48
  learning system or an app and you do level 4 Spanish.
• 20:52
  What happens is, is, oh, we know that level 4 Spanish means that
• 20:55
  you're probably at a, a pretty good level of Spanish.
• 20:58
  So the next time you log into say slack or any of your, you
• 21:03
  know, work tools, it'll come up and say Hola, do you want to
• 21:06
  change your language settings to, to Spanish to give you that,
• 21:10
  that type of practice and hands on feeling.
• 21:13
  And that is a whole other learning experience.
• 21:15
  And then we start to see how well you're doing with that.
• 21:18
  And we might say, hey, we see a lot of progress.
• 21:21
  Do you want to be connected with this person in Colombia who's
• 21:25
  working on a project that's very similar to the one that we know
• 21:28
  you've been working on and start to get that conversation
• 21:32
  happening? And so now you see how I've
• 21:34
  taken language learning. The person is probably still
• 21:36
  taking their courses or their whatever Babble or Duolingo,
• 21:39
  whatever it is that they're taking their, their Spanish in
• 21:41
  and they're probably getting tutoring.
• 21:43
  But now we've embedded it into the way that they are actually
• 21:46
  working and behaving in their, their day-to-day.
• 21:50
  So that's the way we need to think about, think about
• 21:52
  learning. It's, it's not just that course.
• 21:55
  The course isn't going to be the same like what I would log into
• 21:57
  a course. It's going to be totally
• 21:58
  different than what you would have Jack, But it would also be,
• 22:01
  there is tutoring, there's feedback loops, there's
• 22:03
  practice. All of those things are embedded
• 22:05
  within it. And they're also fed to me at
• 22:08
  times that work with how I'm also performing in my
• 22:11
  day-to-day. Maybe it has access to my
• 22:12
  calendar. It knows from the CRM what
• 22:15
  customers I'm speaking to. So it feeds all that in to
• 22:18
  really make a learning experience that is pertinent to
• 22:20
  me. So I actually perceive or
• 22:23
  predict that you will have a learning coach.
• 22:26
  And I hate using learning agent because I know I'm bastardizing
• 22:28
  the term agent because agent really means something else
• 22:31
  specifically, but that you will have a AI person, let's put it
• 22:35
  that way, who is like your Co companion that knows everything
• 22:40
  that you're working on. It reads your emails, it knows
• 22:43
  how you're interacting. It sees around corners for you.
• 22:46
  It coaches you through it knows you know things that you've gone
• 22:50
  through things that have gone well.
• 22:51
  It knows your everything. And it's serving up not only
• 22:55
  knowledge, but a critical learning experiences that are
• 22:58
  mapped to the goals of the company and, and your personal
• 23:00
  goals that, that, that you're, you're working on.
• 23:04
  That's really what I see that the future being so much so that
• 23:08
  when it comes to skills, there, there will be an aspect of, oh,
• 23:13
  we know we're missing the skill we need 16 people with this
• 23:15
  skill. We're going to have your coach,
• 23:19
  you know, talk to you about this skill and see if we can nurture
• 23:22
  you along. It would be so, so precise.
• 23:24
  And of course, it'll have all the good things like that.
• 23:26
  That coach will embed all the good things like practice and,
• 23:29
  you know, feedback, But it will also be doing it in, in, in a
• 23:33
  way that is actually then tied to do we see outcomes?
• 23:37
  Do we actually see these things happening?
• 23:39
  If I wanted to be really honest about where I do see three years
• 23:43
  from now, if I get a little nervous, is does the line blur?
• 23:48
  You will have that in your personal life as well.
• 23:50
  I do believe so you will have that, that persona.
• 23:52
  I already have it. If you, I mean ask your whatever
• 23:55
  AI tool you're using, like tell me my my 3 best personality
• 23:59
  strengths and my three worst and it will tell you like it knows
• 24:02
  things about you. I predict you also have one in
• 24:04
  your personal life. And the question will be, I
• 24:06
  think companies will want to tap into that personal 1.
• 24:09
  And I think there's still going to be a divide.
• 24:12
  Here's the thing. This isn't some distant future
• 24:14
  vision. This technology already exists.
• 24:17
  Companies are already beginning to implement these kinds of
• 24:19
  systems and mindsets, helping them do it.
• 24:21
  Definitely. I mean, I'm trying not to name
• 24:23
  companies and, and, and brands on that, but there there's one
• 24:27
  in particular that I, I do absolutely adore.
• 24:29
  And they've really caught on to this piece of combining
• 24:33
  productivity knowledge management and surfacing what
• 24:37
  you have in, in, in L&D and really what they're measuring it
• 24:42
  is from a productivity standpoint.
• 24:43
  And they've seen massive, massive increases.
• 24:55
  So to conclude, the learning trap is real, but it's not
• 24:58
  inevitable. We're stuck with systems
• 25:01
  designed 25 years ago for legal compliance, not growth.
• 25:05
  Scorn. That technical standard that the
• 25:07
  majority of people never hear about, has imprisoned corporate
• 25:11
  learning into this world of Click next to continue.
• 25:14
  But the real revelation came from Laurie's emergency room
• 25:17
  story. Touching a bottle of vodka
• 25:19
  whilst being wheeled through Toronto airport, she discovered
• 25:22
  the solution. Triage learning should work like
• 25:25
  a emergency room, prioritized by need, context and optimized for
• 25:30
  actual impact. And the technology to fix this
• 25:33
  already exists. AI can create learning coaches
• 25:36
  that knows your work, adapts your schedule, and provides just
• 25:40
  in time, support and mindset. Get to work with companies on
• 25:43
  implementing this technology into their learning ecosystem.
• 25:47
  And we're even enabling people to ingest SCORM.
• 25:49
  Finally. This learning trap therefore is
• 25:51
  not permanent. People do want to learn, just
• 25:53
  not in a dysfunctional way. Or as Laurie says.
• 25:57
  People are always learning. They're learning in other ways,
• 25:59
  maybe ways that you just can't see.
• 26:00
  Anyway, that's it for today. I hope you enjoyed the episode.
• 26:04
  Laurie is such a fantastic speaker and if you want to
• 26:06
  contact her, we'll put all of her contact information in the
• 26:09
  description below. If you've got any comments or
• 26:11
  feedback, I'd love to hear it. Just drop me a message on
• 26:14
  whatever channel you prefer. Anyway, I'll see you next week.