Latest / The Third Thing / S1E6: Friendship and Attachment Styles - Why You Keep Attracting the Same Kinds of Friends

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S1E6: Friendship and Attachment Styles - Why You Keep Attracting the Same Kinds of Friends · The Third Thing

• 0:00
  Danyelle: Welcome to the Third Thing, a podcast about friendship in all its fullness.
• 0:04
  Danyelle: The conflict worth repairing, the evolution worth honoring, and sometimes the letting go.
• 0:10
  Michelle: Think of it as a kitchen table conversation with honesty, laughter, validation, and plenty of tea.
• 0:17
  Danyelle: I'm Danielle, a therapist, healer, and Hudo practitioner who's been thinking about the way we love each other for most of my life.
• 0:25
  Michelle: And I'm Michelle, a life coach, facilitator, and a spaceholder at my core.
• 0:30
  Michelle: I've spent a lifetime helping people communicate better and more honestly.
• 0:34
  Danyelle: We've been best friends for 26 years and we've got the receipts.
• 0:39
  Danyelle: We've done the work and we want to share what we've learned.
• 0:41
  Danyelle: The tools, the hard parts, the things nobody taught us.
• 0:45
  Michelle: There are a lot of people figuring out their friendships without a roadmap, so we're pulling up a chair.
• 0:50
  Danyelle: Welcome back.
• 0:51
  Danyelle: Hi Lar.
• 0:52
  Danyelle: It's good to see you.
• 0:53
  Danyelle: Me too, always.
• 0:54
  Danyelle: Always.
• 0:57
  Danyelle: Today we're going to be talking about attachment style in Platonic Love.
• 1:02
  Michelle: I am so excited to learn from you.
• 1:05
  Michelle: I know about attachment style, but I haven't studied it in depth depth.
• 1:11
  Michelle: So I look forward to using our relationship as a guinea pig for exploring what it can look like in friendship.
• 1:19
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 1:19
  Danyelle: And it's wild because we have been.
• 1:22
  Danyelle: We have been whether we knew it or not.
• 1:25
  Danyelle: Um before, you know, I went to school and had the language and understood attachment style the way that I do now.
• 1:33
  Danyelle: We have been the guinea pigs.
• 1:36
  Danyelle: We've been trying things out, seeing what sticks.
• 1:40
  Michelle: What comes up for me when I think about how I'm attached to you is I think it was when you graduated in Los Angeles.
• 1:50
  Michelle: I couldn't be there, I think, because of work.
• 1:52
  Michelle: And your mom posted on Facebook about you and your best friend at graduation.
• 1:58
  Michelle: And I very loudly and in all caps was like her best friend wasn't there.
• 2:04
  Michelle: So I don't know what you think you're talking about, madam.
• 2:09
  Michelle: Um, but just a real uh I think we'll get into it, but that sort of like anxious needing to know where you stand and needing that affirmation or that confirmation of your standing.
• 2:23
  Michelle: That's the first thing that pops into my mind.
• 2:26
  Michelle: I love that, and I fully remember that.
• 2:28
  Danyelle: Oh yeah.
• 2:29
  Danyelle: That was yeah.
• 2:31
  Danyelle: Dolores is wild in that on the Facebook streets.
• 2:34
  Danyelle: And has been for many moons, many moons.
• 2:38
  Danyelle: Um, yep.
• 2:41
  Danyelle: Um I think the story that stands out to me, I feel like it's a thread.
• 2:47
  Danyelle: The thread that comes up for me in terms of the way I feel I'm attached to you is something that we experienced even this week.
• 2:59
  Danyelle: The I have something to say, it feels too big in my body, so I'm just not gonna say it.
• 3:05
  Danyelle: And I'm gonna just be like, we're best friends, and maybe it's important enough that we'll arrive there, and maybe we won't.
• 3:13
  Danyelle: And this deep avoidance that is swirling around my brain, not just with this relationship, but with any of my relationships.
• 3:26
  Danyelle: Um yeah, just this idea of like, I don't want to say it, it's okay, and moving on.
• 3:35
  Danyelle: I don't think I have one specific story.
• 3:38
  Danyelle: We'll get into stories along the way today in this episode, but I do feel like over 26 years, our attachment styles to each other have evolved, and we've been able to, you know, throw things out the wall and see what sticks and really learn and unlearn what for me, disorganized attachment can look like in relationship, and then what secure attachment can look like in relationship.
• 4:11
  Michelle: I think what's so interesting to me about any therapeutic model is that you're helping to understand the framework and what you're bringing into relationship.
• 4:22
  Michelle: We talk a lot about our inner child or your past trauma, that like there's all these worlds, words are sort of swirling in the zeitgeist, and sometimes it can feel eye roll-y, like, okay, here we go again.
• 4:35
  Michelle: And what I love about this journey is that we get this opportunity to integrate what we've learned and learn about ourselves in a way that allows us to sometimes show up differently or to grow and evolve.
• 4:49
  Danyelle: Absolutely.
• 4:50
  Danyelle: I think we should jump in to like talk about what attachment style is.
• 4:54
  Danyelle: Please.
• 4:56
  Danyelle: So attachment style is learned in childhood.
• 4:59
  Danyelle: And the way that I think about it is it's then solidified through lived experience.
• 5:05
  Danyelle: Typically, attachment style is formed even before we are outside of the belly.
• 5:13
  Danyelle: Some of those even learned within the womb.
• 5:17
  Danyelle: The birthing parents' experiences while their child is in utero impacts the ways in which we experience trauma, ways we experience joy.
• 5:30
  Danyelle: And there are so many studies that talk about the ways in which the stress level or the lack of impacts a baby before they're even born.
• 5:39
  Danyelle: Absolutely.
• 5:40
  Michelle: We learned a lot about that as we were wondering whether or not we should do sleep training or some iteration of that and/or close sleeping, and we're always weighing sort of the pros and cons of am I a better parent if I get a better night's sleep against attachment styles.
• 5:59
  Michelle: And will my child fear that she's been left behind or neglected because they don't have the context for they're just in the next room, they just only know you're not here next to me.
• 6:12
  Michelle: And I think that is something that's interesting as you start to explore new parenthood, and then you think back to your own upbringing or even your parents' upbringing, and not only how the people who are supposed to love you the most and care for you the most are often also the people who are hurting you the most, and how much damage that can create and then is sometimes passed through generations.
• 6:37
  Danyelle: Absolutely.
• 6:37
  Danyelle: I think that piece is often overlooked, but it is so important to remember that our traumas live in our DNA and that they are passed through generations.
• 6:48
  Danyelle: And again, that is on both sides.
• 6:50
  Danyelle: So our trauma and our joys live within our DNA, and it is passed through on to the next generation.
• 6:58
  Danyelle: And I think about attachment style as deeply connected to the nervous system.
• 7:04
  Danyelle: It's our responses, it's understanding how to feel safe, when to know what a need is, what a desire is.
• 7:14
  Danyelle: Attachment style is being able to understand who you are and how you relate to other people.
• 7:22
  Danyelle: And that zero to nine age range is really where those are built and solidified.
• 7:30
  Danyelle: The beautiful thing about attachment style is it is fluid, it can be changed.
• 7:34
  Danyelle: And based on therapy, based on work, based on, you know, the relationships that you have in your life, you can shift between the different attachment styles depending on the other person who you're interacting with.
• 7:50
  Danyelle: I love that.
• 7:51
  Michelle: And I'm really hanging on what you said, which is that your nervous system is trying to feel safe and how everyone sees that safety is I will be safe if I avoid this and run away, versus I will be safe if I stay here and I keep checking in and make sure that you're okay, then I can be safe.
• 8:10
  Michelle: That really resonates with me and I feel like helps provide that context for attachment styles.
• 8:16
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 8:16
  Danyelle: I want to jump in and just share about the four styles.
• 8:21
  Danyelle: So we have secure attachment, which is a comfort with closeness and independence.
• 8:28
  Danyelle: It's the idea that a person in your life can come and go, and there isn't a lot of activation around that, the ability to ask for what you need and really trust in the relationship.
• 8:41
  Danyelle: This is also the type of attachment style that can really handle conflict.
• 8:47
  Danyelle: It can really handle the waves of being in relation with another human.
• 8:53
  Danyelle: Again, this is where the nervous system would be the most inactive, regulated, most regulated, no matter what was happening within the relationship.
• 9:04
  Michelle: And of the name of it, secure.
• 9:06
  Michelle: You're secure within yourself, within the relationship, and it allows for chaos to happen around you and for you to take it one by one.
• 9:14
  Michelle: And this idea of not catastrophizing or taking that past experience to inform the current and blowing it up.
• 9:22
  Michelle: Maybe it is big or maybe it's not.
• 9:25
  Michelle: And it allows you this certain baseline of being able to handle what comes to you because you are securely attached.
• 9:34
  Danyelle: Yeah, thank you for that.
• 9:36
  Danyelle: And then we have anxious attachment.
• 9:39
  Danyelle: This style really craves, and I would go so far to say needs reassurance.
• 9:45
  Danyelle: It's the do you still love me?
• 9:47
  Danyelle: Are you still gonna be here?
• 9:49
  Danyelle: There's a deep fear around abandonment and loss or feeling like you're not gonna have a thing.
• 9:56
  Danyelle: I often see people with anxious attachments really holding on to relationships in ways that might or holding on to relationships that might not be best for them because of this fear of letting go and it not coming back.
• 10:08
  Danyelle: There can be this idea of moving or pressuring the other person, maybe being a little bit overbearing when there's distance, when you don't know where you stand, that in-between period might feel really dysregulating.
• 10:26
  Danyelle: Closeness feels really urgent.
• 10:28
  Danyelle: It feels like something that needs to occur in that moment.
• 10:32
  Danyelle: These are the friends who, you know, over-text, who really read into the energy and I would say the silence and really do well with consistent check-ins.
• 10:45
  Michelle: And I think this is something that you've pointed out before is that there is an overlap, and this is not anxiety necessarily.
• 10:54
  Michelle: The anxious attachment style is separate than what you might be experiencing on a day-to-day basis, although there is or can be overlap.
• 11:01
  Danyelle: Absolutely.
• 11:02
  Danyelle: I really love that distinction because it doesn't show up exactly the same.
• 11:06
  Danyelle: There's a Venn diagram there, but anxious attachment style is the way in which you are responding, you are reacting, that you are reading a room versus the internal feeling of I am anxious about doing this podcast.
• 11:20
  Danyelle: I am anxious about doing this presentation.
• 11:24
  Danyelle: Next we have avoidant.
• 11:27
  Danyelle: And this style really values autonomy and sovereignty and the ability to be on their own.
• 11:36
  Danyelle: This is the attachment style that will pull back when things feel too close, cold feet that the overwhelm of this is feeling more serious or this is getting too deep, and they retreat.
• 11:50
  Danyelle: I talk about avoidant attachment style as folks who have a shell, very like very crab energy of you walk around with your home, and when it's time to go inside, you just do.
• 12:01
  Danyelle: You're just like, and goodbye.
• 12:03
  Danyelle: Um, this is the person who might disappear at times when they're feeling overwhelmed or stressed.
• 12:10
  Danyelle: The friend who is like, Yeah, I'm fine, you know, everything's fine, everything's great.
• 12:15
  Danyelle: And maybe then they go quiet, or you see there's a lot happening in their head, but very stoic on the outside.
• 12:25
  Danyelle: And closeness feels like losing themselves.
• 12:28
  Danyelle: Again, I go back to the autonomy, the sovereignty piece.
• 12:31
  Danyelle: Closeness can feel stagnant, it can feel suffocating.
• 12:36
  Danyelle: It doesn't allow that person to feel like they can be themselves fully.
• 12:42
  Michelle: It's giving lone cowboy energy.
• 12:46
  Michelle: Yes, Marlboroman.
• 12:48
  Michelle: I don't know why this is the image that's being conjured.
• 12:51
  Michelle: This idea of I can go it alone and maybe I prefer to.
• 12:55
  Michelle: But what's interesting is that biologically we are wired to desire to cultivate connection.
• 13:02
  Michelle: And so often when someone presents in this way, it's actually not because they don't want connection, but there is some broken piece around attachment.
• 13:13
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 13:13
  Danyelle: And the last attachment style we have is disorganized, sometimes called fearful avoidant.
• 13:21
  Danyelle: And this is a little bit of everything.
• 13:23
  Danyelle: So this is the person who growing up, their caregivers, parents, the adults around them, the folks who are supposed to keep them safe, were disorganized in the sense of sometimes there was a lot of love and attentiveness, and they were able to form secure attachments at times.
• 13:44
  Danyelle: And then at other times, it felt more scary or neglectful.
• 13:48
  Danyelle: And so this person wants closeness, but does fear it in some ways, and it's a lot of push and pull.
• 13:56
  Danyelle: So, like, I'm really there and then I'm gone.
• 13:59
  Danyelle: This is again this kind of like a similar wound across all of the attachment styles, but it's expressed differently depending on the container.
• 14:10
  Danyelle: It's really expressed in a way that is more individual versus a person who may be anxious, attachment style or avoidant attachment style.
• 14:20
  Danyelle: And that's just how they are with everybody.
• 14:22
  Danyelle: Disorganized attachment style is really going to attach to that person in a singular way.
• 14:28
  Danyelle: And so for one, it might be avoidant, another, it might be secure, and another, it might be anxious.
• 14:34
  Danyelle: Interesting.
• 14:35
  Michelle: And for all of these, they are really primarily rooted in that caregiver relationship and attachment or lack thereof, frankly, when a parent or caregiver is attentive and also lets you be your own person, meaning you can choose your clothes.
• 14:55
  Michelle: You're trusted to choose your clothes and age-appropriate milestones that they're letting you, you know, climb up to the highest rung on that ladder.
• 15:04
  Michelle: And you start to trust yourself, but you also know that when you fall and scrape your knee, you can run to that caregiver and they will be there for you.
• 15:12
  Michelle: Um, that sort of Gilmore girl, we're best friends and we're together all of the time, and your happiness is my happiness, can be romanticized, but that sort of enmeshment can also lead to some anxious attachment because I'm so used to that connection that when it's not present and when it's not mirroring that caregiver relationship, it feels wrong or uncertain.
• 15:38
  Michelle: I think it could also be for someone who's experienced uh a parent that's left that it there's this closeness and you love them so much, and maybe you idolize them, but then they leave.
• 15:51
  Michelle: And so there can be this real fear that if I don't keep you close and if I don't continue to be reassured that you might go away.
• 15:58
  Michelle: And then with avoidant attachment styles, there's this sometimes if a parent overly relies on a child, and you can often see this in single parent household or caregiver households, where maybe the eldest child is relied on almost as if they were another parent, and you get the bulk of the concerns, and you're also offering different layers of intimacy that normally they would get from a co-parent or from friendship.
• 16:27
  Michelle: And so sometimes someone who's avoidant can be like, that's too much, and I don't want to take that on, so then I won't get close to people, and or I grew up alone and I was left by my parents or caregivers to largely fend for myself, and that can be physically or emotionally.
• 16:45
  Michelle: They could physically be there, but not meeting your needs emotionally, and therefore I've learned to no longer rely on anyone because it's not safe, and so I can only rely on myself.
• 16:57
  Michelle: So, yes, I've conjured this image of the lone cowboy, and really at its core, there is still this desire for connection.
• 17:04
  Michelle: It's that lack of trust or assurance that it's possible.
• 17:09
  Danyelle: I think the key piece there is that this is learned during the very beginning of life, right?
• 17:14
  Danyelle: So we talked about in utero, then we can talk about zero to three, we could talk about three to five, and then five to nine.
• 17:21
  Danyelle: And those are all different developmental stages that young people go through where their brains are developing at such a rapid rate and they're learning from their environment.
• 17:32
  Michelle: And we've talked about this before this idea that as a young child, why you always have to tell your kiddo, if you're going through a divorce or a separation of any kind, it's not your fault.
• 17:42
  Michelle: As an adult, you would think, yeah, of course it's not my fault, it's not my relationship.
• 17:47
  Michelle: But children are very egocentric.
• 17:49
  Michelle: They're very concerned with themselves and their household and don't have much of a sense of what happens beyond that.
• 17:55
  Michelle: And so your experience of these caregiver relationships is so altering to the personality and how you start to understand what leads to good outcomes.
• 18:08
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 18:10
  Danyelle: So we laid the foundation for what attachment style is, and this episode is all about attachment style within platonic love.
• 18:20
  Danyelle: Tell me what attachment style you are, Michelle.
• 18:23
  Michelle: I mean, it's not proven, but I really resonate with both secure and anxious attachment.
• 18:31
  Michelle: And I think the secure attachment comes from having nurtured relationships in such a way that I feel really comfortable and confident.
• 18:41
  Michelle: And also through coaching, I've really learned to ask myself a question of, is that true?
• 18:47
  Michelle: So when I get that feeling in my body, like I might have when I saw that Facebook post, it's like, is it true that I'm not her best friend or she doesn't care about me, or am I just having an emotional response to this moment?
• 19:01
  Michelle: And I look for proof.
• 19:02
  Michelle: I look for proof that I am or am not cared about, and often it points in the direction of secure attachment.
• 19:09
  Michelle: Having said that, I think my origin is an anxious attachment, is wanting to be reassured that I am loved and worthy and not too much.
• 19:21
  Michelle: And that really still shows up in both my romantic and platonic relationships.
• 19:26
  Michelle: And I realize this is not necessarily the in-depth topic at hand, but as a parent, and that I can't expect my five-year-old to reassure me.
• 19:40
  Michelle: And it's really my job to ensure that I am secure enough in myself to show up for her so she can grow confidently.
• 19:49
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 19:49
  Danyelle: I mean, what you're speaking to is the importance of one understanding how attachment styles show up across all relationships, and then how we support our individual self, right?
• 20:01
  Danyelle: This is internal work to understand how we are contributing, how we are showing up.
• 20:10
  Danyelle: Was that reaction rooted in love and kindness and trust?
• 20:14
  Danyelle: Or was that reaction the younger version of myself who's deeply wounded because my caregivers didn't show up in the ways that they were supposed to?
• 20:23
  Danyelle: And so I think that is a really important piece, although not centering parenthood, centering ourselves as individuals and how we show up in relation with others.
• 20:34
  Michelle: I'm curious which attachment style you are.
• 20:37
  Michelle: Oh boy.
• 20:38
  Michelle: She asks as if she doesn't know.
• 20:42
  Danyelle: Um, well, you know, I'm a little bit of everything.
• 20:46
  Danyelle: I am disorganized, which like which feels both hilarious and true all at the same time.
• 20:55
  Danyelle: I definitely had really beautiful moments growing up and felt and continued to feel safe in spaces.
• 21:05
  Danyelle: And, you know, there was some chaos.
• 21:07
  Danyelle: And that chaos really did drive me to feel a little guarded at times, feel a little anxious at times, feel secure at times.
• 21:17
  Danyelle: Think about how you and I are attached to each other.
• 21:22
  Danyelle: And because I'm disorganized attachment, I do lean into what is the relationship.
• 21:29
  Danyelle: And so for us, most of our friendship, it absolutely has for me, it has been more avoidant.
• 21:37
  Danyelle: It has been weighing the need to say something or weighing the options around what I could say and deciding maybe it's not worth it, deciding maybe tomorrow, which might then turn into a month, a year, years later.
• 21:57
  Danyelle: And I think for me too, we talk a lot.
• 22:00
  Danyelle: About this, is I'm a younger sibling, you're the eldest sibling.
• 22:03
  Danyelle: And I think a part of my avoidance comes from that of not taking up space in the same way as an eldest daughter.
• 22:11
  Danyelle: And so there are these ways that I might shrink or go with the flow or like not rock the boat because of that energy, of that kind of birth order sibling, the thread that is also very present in attachment style.
• 22:25
  Danyelle: Absolutely.
• 22:27
  Michelle: And I think I spoke a bit to the anxiousness, but I also we're gonna keep bringing it back to this idea of pop culture and culture in general.
• 22:36
  Michelle: But what I had seen modeled to me growing up was that it was really important to be the best, to give the most, to give of yourself, to not necessarily prioritize your own needs, because the ultimate goal was love and acceptance always.
• 22:55
  Michelle: And that's how I had seen in my household, it was modeled through your sort of role and duty as a mother, as a woman, and as a friend.
• 23:04
  Michelle: And so there is this underlying martyrdom there too that can be really off-putting to someone avoidant.
• 23:11
  Michelle: And so we were both seeking some healing through the other.
• 23:16
  Michelle: There can be something really, for some reason, the word is sexy that's coming to mind, but about winning somebody over that doesn't want to give.
• 23:24
  Michelle: We all that the trope of uh I'm thinking what's the Clair Daines show?
• 23:29
  Michelle: Um oh my soul called life.
• 23:31
  Michelle: My soul called life classic, just the the mysterious person who doesn't necessarily want to give you the time of day.
• 23:41
  Michelle: Catalano, Justin.
• 23:42
  Michelle: Justin's not that Chris Catalano.
• 23:45
  Michelle: No, that's Catalano.
• 23:48
  Michelle: I think there's someone named our high school.
• 23:51
  Michelle: Chris Catalano.
• 23:53
  Michelle: I think you are right.
• 23:55
  Michelle: But I think of my so-called life, of the really mysterious person that you have a crush on that's not really giving you the time of day and how like fulfilling it or romanticized it is to try and win that person over.
• 24:10
  Michelle: But really, as we get older, what is fulfilling and romantic is somebody who really sees you for all that you are, that you don't have to be performative or.
• 24:20
  Michelle: Um, but so I look at uh the way we attach to each other in our youth as being really trying to seek that resolve or that healing through each other.
• 24:32
  Michelle: And in some ways it was healthy, and in other ways it was just uh what a horrible match to you're like, please leave me alone and stop asking for so much of me.
• 24:43
  Michelle: And I'm like, please love me.
• 24:45
  Michelle: Um, you know, so that's what it has sometimes looked like for us.
• 24:49
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 24:51
  Danyelle: What does it look like in other friendships for you?
• 24:57
  Michelle: It's interesting to talk about this through the lens of attachment styles because of our vocabulary with therapeutic modalities and spirituality.
• 25:06
  Michelle: It's your birth placement in your family, it's your zodiac sign, it's your attachment style, it's your personality enneagram, it's any of these things are contributing your trauma.
• 25:22
  Michelle: So it's sometimes it's hard to say.
• 25:26
  Michelle: I honestly think that in my older age, secure is mostly the way that I show up.
• 25:35
  Michelle: And I know that I mentioned this earlier that, and you did it as well, that it's part of what can help guide anyone there, regardless of your style, is therapy and connection.
• 25:48
  Michelle: Going back to our compassionate communication conversation, it's that idea of okay, I'm feeling really anxious right now.
• 25:57
  Michelle: Let me identify what's underneath that and what do I need and make a request.
• 26:03
  Michelle: And so this is kind of a you brought it up earlier in this episode about how this week we had a moment where you wanted to not deal and maybe not run away literally, but a little bit to run away and not not face it.
• 26:20
  Michelle: But we are in the situation where we're working together and we're collaborating.
• 26:24
  Michelle: And so not only did you decide to face that moment and we had a conversation, but the tools that I could offer are listening, holding space, acknowledging the emotions, and also asking, like, how can I show up differently or better, how can we show up together?
• 26:45
  Michelle: And so that then takes a person out of avoidance or disorganization and into secure because you're learning that you're safe to show up as your whole self.
• 26:55
  unknown: Yes.
• 26:56
  Michelle: And it makes the next interaction hopefully a little bit easier.
• 27:00
  Danyelle: Because again, when you are taught that when you have a need, when you have a desire, when you make a request, it doesn't land or your needs aren't met.
• 27:11
  Danyelle: When you come into adulthood, you are just going to do that in the same way.
• 27:17
  Danyelle: We are mimics.
• 27:18
  Danyelle: That's the way we are.
• 27:20
  Danyelle: And what you're really speaking to is gonna go back this interaction that we had, you know, earlier this week.
• 27:29
  Danyelle: You're right.
• 27:29
  Danyelle: I I really love Track Star.
• 27:32
  Danyelle: Shout out to Moosey.
• 27:34
  Danyelle: That is often on repeat in my head.
• 27:39
  Danyelle: And yeah, it feels like always an option for me.
• 27:44
  Danyelle: And so because of our secure attachment, I can show up.
• 27:52
  Danyelle: I did for about 30 minutes, pretend that nothing was wrong, but you are my best friend.
• 27:56
  Danyelle: And you gave me that 30 minutes and then finally turned to me and said, Are you okay?
• 28:00
  Danyelle: And I said, No, I'm not.
• 28:06
  Danyelle: Because of that secure attachment, you felt safe enough to bring it to me.
• 28:10
  Danyelle: There have been plenty of times in our relationship where my avoidance is so thick that you can't say anything, or that it is impenetrable in ways.
• 28:20
  Danyelle: And so I think this is such a beautiful example of how one, you're always working through this.
• 28:27
  Danyelle: This doesn't stop.
• 28:29
  Danyelle: I don't, again, I think so much of the work isn't about getting to the top of the mountain.
• 28:34
  Danyelle: And I attachment style is no different.
• 28:37
  Michelle: We would love to invite you to answer what your attachment style is based on our overview or our connections to each of the four, or you can go to the attachmentproject.com, take the quiz, and see how it's showing up in your life.
• 28:54
  Danyelle: Yeah.
• 28:54
  Danyelle: And you can take it based on different relationships.
• 28:57
  Danyelle: So it's gonna ask you questions about a specific relationship.
• 29:00
  Danyelle: So you can keep in mind whatever relationship feels top of mind for you.
• 29:05
  Michelle: Is there anything that bubbled up to the surface this episode for you?
• 29:10
  Danyelle: I mean, as a therapist, I live in the world of attachment style.
• 29:15
  Danyelle: This is something I talk about all of the time.
• 29:18
  Danyelle: However, so rarely do I explicitly apply it to platonic love.
• 29:25
  Danyelle: And so what's bubbling up for me is the importance of doing the work for first and foremost ourselves, but also for the other people in our lives outside of romantic love.
• 29:38
  Danyelle: Again, I can talk at nauseam until I'm blue in the face about the ways in which attachment styles has shown up for us.
• 29:47
  Danyelle: And I kind of feel like this might be it's not the first conversation, but the most explicit conversation.
• 29:56
  Danyelle: Because of who we are, these types of topics are woven in.
• 30:01
  Danyelle: But I love that we're having this conversation in such a direct way and really highlighting how our attachment styles, the ways that we were raised, and understand how to attach to others have impacted our relationship.
• 30:15
  Michelle: I also love that it came up so naturally for us this week.
• 30:20
  Michelle: We do a lot of self-congratulatory pats on the back because we've done so much work together and find so much ease and joy in our friendship.
• 30:30
  Michelle: And despite all the work that we've done in the many years, we are still hitting road bumps.
• 30:36
  Michelle: And it and it only happens more and more the more time you spend with anyone.
• 30:40
  Michelle: But I think the power is in how quickly we came together and moved through it really honestly, not because we moved past it or around, but we we got down in it together.
• 30:54
  Michelle: And I'm really proud of being able to move into that secure space more and more, and we each are gonna need various degrees of patience as we keep journeying together.
• 31:07
  Danyelle: I mean, we've got 26 years of practice, and I think we're doing a damn good job.
• 31:14
  Danyelle: Do not high five.
• 31:15
  Danyelle: I really wanted to.
• 31:16
  Danyelle: I know you do.
• 31:17
  Danyelle: Will you please pull a card for us?
• 31:20
  Danyelle: Instead of a high five, Ryan.
• 31:23
  Danyelle: I almost I know you did.
• 31:25
  Danyelle: I saw it.
• 31:26
  Michelle: I could see it in your eyes.
• 31:28
  Michelle: Ooh, a jumper.
• 31:29
  Danyelle: I know.
• 31:31
  Danyelle: I think it's this top one.
• 31:34
  Danyelle: Of course.
• 31:35
  Danyelle: Of course, of course it is.
• 31:38
  Danyelle: Judgment.
• 31:40
  Danyelle: I love that so many of this first season that we're in, we're getting all of these major arcana.
• 31:47
  Danyelle: So this is the judgment card.
• 31:50
  Danyelle: It's like a concert.
• 31:52
  Danyelle: Somebody told me that, and I was like, oh, I've never seen it in that way, but I love it.
• 31:55
  Danyelle: The judgment card to me is all about self-forgiveness.
• 32:00
  Danyelle: It's all about getting to the end of a journey, an end of an era.
• 32:04
  Danyelle: I like to talk about it as the end of the major arcana is the end of a book.
• 32:07
  Danyelle: So you're closing the chapter on this book to begin to write a new one.
• 32:13
  Danyelle: And before you cross that finish line, before you get to walk through the portal of the world, there's some work that needs to be done.
• 32:22
  Danyelle: And to me, judgment, one of the most important pieces of this judgment card and that work is self-forgiveness.
• 32:30
  Danyelle: Being able to create the space for I didn't know what I didn't know, and that's okay.
• 32:36
  Danyelle: I made the best decision for myself at that time with the information that I had.
• 32:41
  Danyelle: And thinking about attachment styles, thinking about the ways in which I have exploded, I've yelled, I've ignored, I've ghosted you at times.
• 32:56
  Danyelle: There is both the work that we've done to continue our relationship, but it's just as important for me to do that inner work for myself.
• 33:03
  Danyelle: The self-forgiveness of I was showing up that way because I didn't know better.
• 33:08
  Danyelle: That doesn't make it right.
• 33:10
  Danyelle: It's not an excuse, but it is real.
• 33:12
  Danyelle: And so to me, this judgment card is offering us and our listeners that moment of pause of it's okay when we mess up.
• 33:23
  Danyelle: It doesn't erase it, but it does create the space to try again tomorrow.
• 33:30
  Michelle: Thanks for joining us.
• 33:31
  Danyelle: We'll see you next week.
• 33:34
  Danyelle: If today's episode meant something to you, share it with a friend.
• 33:38
  Michelle: Find us on Instagram at the Third Thing Pod, and everything we're building lives at www.thethirdthingpod.com.
• 33:46
  Michelle: Episode notes, our workbooks, all of it.
• 33:49
  Danyelle: And if you're ready to go deeper, real community, monthly events, early access, and to join the group chat, we're on Patreon.
• 33:57
  Danyelle: The link is in the show notes.
• 33:59
  Michelle: If you're loving the show, a rating and review genuinely helps more people find us.
• 34:04
  Michelle: It takes two minutes and it means everything.