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The Questions CROs Are Asking About RevOps · Rev-n-u Unplugged

• james: Hello everyone, welcome to this very special season from Rev-n-u Unplugged. It's special because today we're kicking off a whole season dedicated to RevOps. So, how did this come about? Well, I've had some incredible CROs on the show over the past 12 months, and I went back to a few of them and I just asked, what would you like to hear on Rev-n-u Unplugged that would genuinely help you move the needle and what's going to help you prepare best for 2027? And RevOps came up again. And again. So I thought let's get some RevOps leaders on the show and dig into this properly. To introduce this season, I've got Dan Gaffney and Eric Filowitz joining me for a discussion. These two have been a massive help in pulling this season together. We start right at the beginning with what RevOps actually is in their opinion. Then we look at the questions the CROs kept raising. and why they're asking these questions in the first place. Has RevOps become a proper strategic operating system? Or is it still fixing CRM's hygiene? Is AI really earning its keep? Is forecasting accuracy the real proof point? And where should RevOps actually sit in the business? We're not trying to answer them today. That's what the rest of the season is for. But it's really interesting to hear why these are the things on CRO's minds right now. So if you haven't already, give us a like and subscribe so you don't miss any of these special episodes. Right, let's get to it. Guys, welcome to Rev-n-u Unplugged. We've got a a super special season coming up, including a number of incredible RevOps leaders. today we're just gonna give you a brief overview of what's to come. I've got Dan Gaffney and Eric Flowitz on the show today, just to give us a bit of a discussion point. So, guys, thank you so much for joining me. And also both of you have been instrumental in pulling this incredible season together. So thank you for that. the reason why we are bringing this season together is that I have a community of CROs that have joined me as guests on Rev-n-u Unplugged. And when I spoke to them and said, what would you like to hear about? What's challenges that are on your mind? RevOps was a a key component to to this it was recommended that we would get some revops leaders on the show and so we've done that and discussing before this we thought a great place to start would be actually each of us defining what we think revops actually is which will be a a fun Eric, do you want to kick us off with this Eric Filowitz: Yeah, happy to, James. And the way I think about RevOps and the way I define it is in a simple sentence. It's the engine that powers how work gets done. And one of the reasons why I use that definition is I believe the core thing that RevOps is doing is trying to build repeatable processes that all customer facing teams do that enable the the organization to then capture consistent data, enforce the right policy, you know, have the right outcomes, but it all starts with how work gets done. james: Awesome. Dan, what's your thoughts? Dan: Well, first of all, thank you for having us, James, and my summary there, Eric, it's gonna be hard to surpass that. But yeah, james: Yeah. Dan: I'd go into like for me, like a big part of RevOps is is always like the why, like why are you doing it. So for me you always have to start with like what the business is trying to achieve. And then once you know what the business is trying to achieve, like breaking that down. And so it's a case of then building a strategy or the things that you need to do to actually get to that number and To be able to do that, there's obviously a lot that has to happen. You have to have a look at the data, you have to question the people and talk to the people in the business. But ultimately through that and guided by that, setting up a sequence of the right data, the right system, the right processes, the right methodologies, the right technology, but most of all, like galvanizing all of that complexity in a business, all those go go to market heads that have different roles, bringing them onto one. journey that's consistent that drives to those goals that you're trying to achieve. james: And and I guess my very simple terminology of it is probably good proof as to why this conversation is is even happening. and I'll probably give what my thought of it was before I interviewed twelve, thirteen RevOps leaders and got an understanding of what the role is. But my my thought process from what I knew from the outside looking in was it's a go to market data scientist, effectively. I now know how much more it is than than that. and I guess what I wanted to do was the there was when I asked what these CROs wanted to get out of this season, there was a recurring theme that came through. And we're just gonna touch on why we think these these points came up from the CROs. and the first one is, has Revops become a strategic operating system or is it still fixing CRM hygiene? So guys, what's what's your thoughts on why are CROs asking that? Eric Filowitz: I'm happy to jump in and I think it's a it's a fun question, right? And I think it's it's one of those ones that, for me, I think a strategic operating system is a is a fairly fancy way of of kind of saying the way I've defined it, right? It's it's it's it's powering the way that that revenue and revenue impacting teams get their work done. Right. And the operating system that allows it to happen in a way that is maximizing productivity and efficiency and compliant to the right controls and policies and data capture that help power downstream processes like accounting and billing and revenue reporting. But at the same time, like revenue, you know, CR CRM hygiene is an incredibly important role within that. Right. So, you know, I think a part of maybe some of the misconception even that I hope to uncover more as we dive in deeper over the coming weeks or whatever we do, right? Is is what are the various things that RevOps has to do to power a go to market engine. And the strategic value of CRM hygiene is is one that people don't like to always say is the most strategic thing, but actually it's kind of the baseline. Right. So I I feel like it's both. Maybe that's a cheat of an answer, but I feel like it I feel like the the goal is to be the strategic operating system and you get there by making sure you have good data. james: Dan, what's your thoughts? Dan: Yes. So I I think I come back to like what people already know about RevOps and when I think about how people know about RevOps, it's often, you know, fruit through LinkedIn and we we le we owe LinkedIn james: Yeah. Eric Filowitz: So true. Dan: a lot for that, right? It's really created a it it's held RevOps in a lot of way to bring momentum. But at the same time I think there's a slight cost that comes with it that it's maybe oversimplified and it's probably leans towards technology a bit, right? 'Cause you have vendors in the space that are trying to sell their technology and I don't believe you should ever start with the technology. When you come back to the principles of RevOps and how Eric defined it so well, it's like technology is an accelerator within it. And so, I think that's why this podcast is super important, right? That we can get a message out through RevOps operators and and what actually happens and what you mentioned there, like fixed in CRM, along with other topics like fixing comp plans or data hygiene or james: Mm. Dan: fixing your order flow. Like these are not necessarily the most glamorous of things that you need to do out there, but they're they're the reality. And if you don't get those things right, then nothing really operates. But it can not really be your starting point, right? Your starting point has to be what Eric mentioned, that strategic go to market operating system. And so you start there and then from there you kind of cascade down to make sure you have all that you need. And having somebody that's in your team that is exceptional, like thinking about how to use technology. accelerate every single thing that you're really valuable humans do in all of those processes is, you know, a really important thing. So not fixing technology not fixing TRM but yeah definitely building specifically for technology solutions is is key. james: and then is AI earning its keep? That's a big one to to get into. But but Dan, I'll give you a chance to go first on this one give your thoughts like st Dan: Yeah. Yeah. So it's i yeah, this is a yeah, this is a big one. And I we have this whole series coming up and you've assembled a really cool panel of people to talk about these topics in detail. So I'll keep it f fairly high level. But I think whenever a a new technology is introduced, like there's there's always a a cycle, right? Where at first you're burning through ideas, you're trying to experiment, you probably don't always realise value straight away. And I think I do believe like we're at the point in in AI where I think about the energy the journey I've been through, there's been a lot of point solutions that we've kind of plumbed together. And some of those have delivered value and some of them haven't. And frankly, some of our experiments and projects we've run haven't yielded a a great result. but we're at a point now where I believe there's more value showing up, but we're also creating another problem at this point in time because all of a sudden there's a a switch from our vendors to go to this consumption model where you know Depending on how much AI is used, then there's a cost. And with that, with most of those prompts, you ask it a question, you love the answer, and your natural kind of your natural will as a human is then to click the button that says, Hey, do you need more? Some of the times you don't need more. So almost like the vendors are almost engineering the situation too where you consume even more. So I think we have to get back to that, like Alan great, consume AI, use AI, or measure the cost against some business output. think we're a lot of us are at that point in time, right? Make sure we get that balance. james: Eric, what's your thoughts? Eric Filowitz: Yeah, and I think, you know, I echo a lot of Dan's perspective. And but and I guess from my point of view, you know, I think that the the last, you know, I don't know, six months, year or whatever it has been has proved out that the technology can work. Right. I don't think there's a lot of debate about whether it can do something quite useful. I think the thing that happens now, and I think it's what Dan was pointing to also, now it's really about getting the right business case tied to when it's used and how it's used tied to cost. To make it make sense, which is not that different than any technology. but I do think it's earned its keep at the very least as something that has to be talked about, figured out, and deployed in a meaningful way, like now. has to be something I don't think there's a good argument anywhere that it could be zero. Right? I think how it goes from zero to infinity is the hard part, but it can't be zero. james: do you think there's a lack of communication up to the CRO about what AI's doing, what it's being used for? Eric Filowitz: It's a good it's a good question. I don't know how you feel, Dan. I think I think it's gonna depend on the CEO and the size and shape of the company at some level. But from from my view, I think there's two sides. There's the thing that people don't love to talk about, but is certainly true, which is the CFO and the CEO talking about whether or not it can reduce overhead costs or offset costs from full time employees through to tech. I mean, that's happening and it's real, and people who are denying that are just not being real. Then The other side about it is maybe where it actually can unlock something that's going to deliver value to the customers, right? Whether it be via the product or whether it be via the way we can support and and and act and interact with our our our customers, you know, is a piece of it. But I think from the CEO, my experience and not just my current company or anything, but the broader experience that I have, I think it's really about how do you unlock productivity gains in a way that's gonna hopefully deliver value back in some way either in cost savings or more revenue. I think that's usually how they think about most things. james: Yeah. I Eric Filowitz: You you agree, Dan? Dan: Yeah, I I agree. And the other thing I would say in there too as well is like AI is important, but you also need to remember like good old like automation that's been around for a little while and quite often if Eric Filowitz: Very true. Dan: you get too distracted by AI, like maybe that's the wrong phrase, right? We have to all be on it with AI, like it is the future. But they also forget, yeah, the the cousin of like automation and technology in general. And there's also a lot of low hanging fruit as you look around any business or revenue organisations to to be impactful with some more simple tools actually that can free up capacity or automate and accelerate processes. james: Awesome. Eric, I'll come back to you on to start with this one. Is forecasting accuracy the real proof point? Eric Filowitz: Yeah, that's an interesting question. I probably have a bit of a controversial take on this one myself. I think a lot of I think Dan made a a both a a s a fair statement and a joke a little bit about how LinkedIn kind of driving the perception of RevOps and you see a lot of people talk about forecasting being the ultimate sign of strategic value. I'm not sure I agree. I think you know, I think it depends on the business a lot and where and where or not they think that is the thing that they need. But I look at forecasting as almost the output of a really buttoned up process. Right. So if you have a really, really good sales methodology that's fully adopted and enabled, a really clean way of managing your pipeline and capturing the right information about intent and tying it back to actual customer interactions, I think what you've done is you've teed up the forecasting to be run by those who are then closest to the business. And if RevOps has to actually overlay on top of that, I feel like that's almost a miss. Like I don't like being the one that has to go and say, Hey, I know what they said, don't count that deal. I think if that's the case, I probably did something wrong in the operating model. others don't agree, right? I can see both signs. But I think if you take the question for what it's really trying to poke at, I think, which is should RevOps have a good vantage point for how the business is performing, then I would say essentially yes. Whether or not we have to interject ourselves to an actual forecast call, I think that's debatable. But we absolutely have to understand where things are going and why and tie it back to how people are using the information to go drive Performance and action that's gonna hopefully get you to a higher number for sure. but I guess it depends on the on the some of the semantics there, James, right? james: Yeah, for sure. Dan, what's your viewpoint on this one? Dan: Yeah, like I don't think I can tell it better than Eric is it's like it's the output, isn't it? It's it's a lot of work that goes behind the scenes and then the forecast itself is an output. You can't just simply tell people to get better at forecasting, but you have to walk them through a methodology and make sure you kind of got an organized gated sales process. And if you can get all of those things right, you're on the right path to your forecast. I think the other thing that I would probably mention is AI becomes quite interesting in the world of forecasting because For me it's like, yeah, there might be some value at a high level to kind of understand like what a good deal looks like or doesn't, and give some coaching throughout that sales cycle. But ultimately, you probably don't want AI running your forecast in most enterprise software businesses because there's a human element where that accountability of an individual calling a committed deal is very important for a number of reasons to keep the right inertia on a deal moving forward. So yeah, just something I would add out there, but otherwise Eric summarised it perfectly. Eric Filowitz: and and Dan Dan is so right. If you take away the human element of forecasting from the people who actually are accountable for those numbers, you've lost the plot. I couldn't agree more. Dan's dead on. Dan: Can hear it now, right, Eric. It's like, Hey, I didn't forecast that. It was the system that broadcasted not. So that's how ability Eric Filowitz: Yeah, exactly. Dan: goes and that's not how you build a good business. james: Yeah. Eric Filowitz: No. james: we might get a split decision on this this last point. where should RevOps sit in an organization? So I'm guessing that question's been asked because there's a bit of tussle of power that's going on. So Eric, where do you where do you feel a RevOps leader sits in an organisation and and where they should report, I guess? Eric Filowitz: Yeah. And it's a good question. And I and and my my perspective on it is, you know, I think the trend right now is to have it report not into a CRO and have it report more centrally. but ultimately I don't think it matters too much. I think the nature of what a good RevOps team does is act as the glue between all aspects of an organization. Right. So if you if you do report into the CRO, you still have to have incredibly tight connectivity. into centralized functions such as maybe even IT or legal or finance or anything like that. If you report into a COO, you have to have incredibly tight connectivity into the sales team. Right. So if you if you think about it as a baseline partnership, right, the reporting line becomes more of an HR decision than it does anything else. And the only asterisk I would put at the end of it, I think one of the key points to making that decision, and this is probably a good for debate as the as the series continues, but The role of a deal desk is probably a key determinator of that is if you have an organization that really wants separation of duties, right? Where you want to have more of a clean line between those who are really reporting up to someone who may actually get a variable pay tied to that deal being won versus those that have to enforce policy against maybe a non standard deal. A lot of times there is a bit of a pause in having every all those functions live under that one role. So they want to pull you out to have more of a neutral view. I've heard that before. I don't believe that's even changing the behavior in the deal test, to be fair, but it is on paper, I think, even from an auditing perspective. I've I've heard it come up before. james: Awesome. And Dan, why do you think CROs are are key to or keen to understand where it sits? Dan: I think it's a big it's a big question again and I I think the truth is you can make it accessible wherever you sit in an organization. And so what I'm what I mean by that is it it's more important, like you can't always walk into it. I think there is a blueprint. There's an obvious blueprint which is the CRO owns in a business, the entire revenue orchestration. And what that means is you have customer experience report in there, you have marketing report in there, and it's that whole revenue flow. Well, quite often you might walk into a business and it it doesn't look like that. It doesn't look like that's a really good feature, right? I don't think RevOps needs to come into a business, you should necessarily be the person that touches on those doors and go, Hey, can you fix the overall org structure so that I can have a job that it's on a brief list of work? And so real if it is every business is is different. And I think as a RevOps leader, this is what I've also loved about RevOps throughout my own career, even before it was called RevOps, is it's about like helping bring people together, whether that be through good communication, simplification, data. I think that's at the the heart of it, just being a leader that people people respect because you communicate well in terms of what the priorities are for revenue operations. And if you do that you can galvanize a leadership team towards those common goals and that allows you then to kind of build the infrastructure that you need to help run the revenue engine. So I probably have a soft spot for Zero though because I do have to acknowledge that throughout my career There was a point in time when I probably did just turn off as a reporting agent when I gave people information. At some point at some point along that journey, someone challenged me to say, like, hey Dan, what's the so what moment? What are you gonna do with it? And that's when I feel like my own career pre determined to RevOps where we use data to actually drive out some business programs, whether that's free and churn or drive a top line grocery investment in, say, an FR function. And so when you start to do those things, I think that often really comes the life. So respect to all the CRLs out there who have brought me a lot and I've also worked with CRIs out there as well so it's it's a it's a tricky one. james: Nice. well there's gonna be lots to unpack throughout the season. Before we wrap up this this special intro, it would be good to get your guys' opinion on why CROs should be tuning in, why RevOps leaders should be tuning in to listening to what's gonna be unpacked over these ten, eleven episodes. Eric Filowitz: Yeah. And I think, you know, listen, if you're a CRO and you're listening to this, I think one of the things that's gonna really make or break powering into where we're going is really getting a full definition of what RevOps means to you as a lever to get you to the goals that you're trying to achieve. Right. And I think if any CRO, right, they need to look at all the weapons they have to use to go win and get to where they wanna go. If you're not looking at RevOps as one of them and knowing how to use it effectively, I think you're fighting without the right weaponry. And I think if you're in RevOps, and I think Dan hinted on it well, right, I think a big part of what I'm hoping to do is get past just some of the stuff that you might see posted on LinkedIn and get real operators telling you, you know, real leaders that have to deal with real problems every single day, what are they doing to tackle those problems and what is their mindset and and and cerebral and philosophical approach to how they go and try and drive that outcome that they're trying to achieve, right? And really maybe break some of the myth and perception that you may see out there in in in in other forums. james: Dan, what's your what's your thoughts? Dan: Yeah, like I I would I would hope that CROs would gather from this useful information that allows them to get even more out of their existing revenue operations team that brings more investment into revenue operations and CROs have challenges in that as well, right? Making sure that they can go to senior leadership and get commitment of of investment. So I think having I'd hope that they get a deeper understanding of how to get even more value from RevOps. And I think it's a kind of two sides of the coin, right? You need the right people with the right energy to come in from a RevOps point of view and drive some of this, but you also need the right stage, right, as a as a RevOps leader. And I've always been very careful throughout my career of making sure that I do my due diligence as I go into a business to make sure that I'm working with somebody that I am compatible with. We have the same shared goals and vision. And I've been very fortunate that I've had really good partners throughout my career that have really, you know, created that platform for me. So I think acknowledgement as well that you know it's a it's there's two sides of it. Like if you give them the platform and the investment, RevOps can drive a huge amount of value for for an organisation more globally, but also, you know, the CRO and the Revops team and the entire business win together. james: I'm super looking forward to bringing all of these episodes together And you guys have agreed to come back right at the end after you've obviously done your own episodes to to discuss and summarize what's gone on and what's been discussed throughout the season. So super appreciate all of that. Thank you so much for your time today and giving a little taster into what people should expect to get from from this season. Dan: Thank you, James. Eric Filowitz: Thank you, James.